Jays fire Tosca

[Jiggy_12]

He isn't the only one to blame, but a change had to happen.

Click here (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=94125)

[JiriHrdina]

Well I agree with the move but I question the timing.

I was hoping he would be fire months ago. His handling of the pitching staff, particularly the bull pen is at times brutal. Frankly there are many games where he is simply out managed. I'm sure he was a good coach in terms of teaching young players, but as an in-game manager he struggled.

The timing is strange though. Why now? What's changed in the last few weeks to motivate the change? If you were going fire him during the season why not do it months ago when the change would have an impact?

[calculoso]

I agree that it should have happened quite a while ago, but I think the reason it was done now is to not "ruin" a lot of the young guys they have up with the team now. Bad managers can give them a bad impression or bad habits.

It'll be interesting to see who they replace him with.

[flambers]

I agree with the move as well, but I also agree it should of happened a couple of months ago. I just hope they will hire a quality replacement.........

[CaramonLS]

Hopefully JP is next... if anything he should be fired... Tosca was far from perfect, but JP's moves have been extremely questionable.

Lilly deal was really good.

Quantrill/Izturas deal was probably one of the worst moves in baseball over the past 10 years.

Speier deal he failed to get the best asset in the deal (Joe Kennedy) and he traded away a 1st year LHP for a RHP middle releiver? yesh. BTW Hendrikson now has a very respectable ERA slightly over 4 and leads the Rays in Quality starts.

[JiriHrdina]

I disagree. JP's had a few bad moves but most of his trades have been good. More importantly through drafting and trading he's stocked our minor leagues with some of the best prospects in the majors.

He's got a plan and he's sticking to it. The problem since the Jays won the series is they haven't had a long-term plan. JP said he needed 5 years to turn this team into a contendor. I believe he has 2 years left to fulfill this - if he doesn't then you axe him.

[Pagal4321]

I think last years semi success has really raised the expectations of the fans(similar to the Flames). I mean they had a pretty solid season last year and this year they have done the complete opposite of last. Tosca wasn't a bad manager, granted some of his moves this year have been head scratchers, but like everyone says, not the only problem. JP said he had a 5 year plan, like Jiri said, he has stocked our minor league system with some top notch prospects. I just hope it all pans out in the end.

[JiriHrdina]

Interesting speculation on Sportsnet tonight suggesting that Paul Molitor could be the manager for next year. I'd be very happy with that choice.

[AaronSJ]

It's been a tough season for everyone in Toronto. Their two best players have been hurt most of the season and have underperformed when in the line-up. Still, as Jiri said above, Tosca was noticeably outmanaged several times this season and probably wasn't coming back next spring anyway...

I'm still not sold on JP, but I think next season will be very telling. JP and the Jays have been absolutely handcuffed by Carlos Delgado's $20 million contract, which is 40% of their payroll. This winter, they'll be able to spend this money to get 3 or 4 solid players to compliment their youth, which should really improve the ballclub. I'm willing to give him one more year...

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Aug 9 2004, 03:29 AM
I disagree. JP's had a few bad moves but most of his trades have been good. More importantly through drafting and trading he's stocked our minor leagues with some of the best prospects in the majors.

He's got a plan and he's sticking to it. The problem since the Jays won the series is they haven't had a long-term plan. JP said he needed 5 years to turn this team into a contendor. I believe he has 2 years left to fulfill this - if he doesn't then you axe him.
I hate to harp on a single point, but the Quantrill/Izturas deal screwed the jays up so bad.

First it dealt away 2 positions that we had no strength in, Middle releif and short stop (which are VERY significant problems this very day, if he hadn't done that deal we would be in a much better position.).

Prokopec turns out to be a total bust. Even if he settled in as the Jays 4-5 starter, I would still count this as a win for the Dodgers.

Speier deal was also bad... trading a 1st year LH pitcher for a Right handed Middle releiver is a bad trade any day. I think Joe Kennedy was the best asset moved in that deal, really he is only 25 and has an ERA under 4 this season.

Middle Releif this season... wow... talk about everyone playing like complete sieves minus Chulk and Frazor. JP shouldnt have been such an idiot and went out and got the top end Middle Releif (Urbina, Gordon, Quantrill) or someone like that instead of Bucket heads like Litenberg, Del La Santos, (those 2 salaries combined can get you a Quantrill/Gordon).

Also 2005 was JP's Original 5 year plan. I beleive he pushed it back to 2006.

JP's failure to do anything meaningful at the deadline (this year and last). SELL OFF ESCOBAR AND LIDLE and at least get some minor league prospects instead of letting them walk... my god. Cattalanato should have been shipped out with Zaun at the deadline (rumor was Florida wanted those 2 players, both glaring weaknesses in their team). Right now Cat it seems like is going to walk at the end of the season, and we are left with nothing.

[JiriHrdina]

I agree some of those decisions have been poor but he's also been tied down by the budget. This is why we see him bring in guys like Lightenberg and Speir for the bull pen - we couldn't afford guys like Urbina, Gordon or Quantrill. Primarily because of the Delgado contract which was made by the previous GM, not JP.

This is JP's third year and at no time did he ever suggest this would be a playoff team in 2005. At one point he did suggest 2006, but his ultimate goal has always been to build a contendor for 2007 and beyond.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Aug 8 2004, 10:50 PM
SELL OFF ESCOBAR
they essentially got a first round pick for letting escobar walk, maybe there were no better offers.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by Andrew+Aug 8 2004, 11:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Andrew @ Aug 8 2004, 11:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 8 2004, 10:50 PM
SELL OFF ESCOBAR
they essentially got a first round pick for letting escobar walk, maybe there were no better offers. [/b][/quote]
Also at the time Escobar was expressing a desire to stay in Toronto and the Jays seemed to want him back. So I think there was a sincere desire on both parties to try and work out a new deal. But the Angels came along with a pretty high offer that the Jays couldn't compete. My point is that I think the Jays chose not to deal Escobar in hopes they could ink him to a new deal.

As for the other UFA we lost what's a pending UFA, losing pitcher like Lidle worth at the deadline anyways. Not much.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina+Aug 9 2004, 05:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JiriHrdina @ Aug 9 2004, 05:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Andrew@Aug 8 2004, 11:23 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 8 2004, 10:50 PM
SELL OFF ESCOBAR
they essentially got a first round pick for letting escobar walk, maybe there were no better offers.
Also at the time Escobar was expressing a desire to stay in Toronto and the Jays seemed to want him back. So I think there was a sincere desire on both parties to try and work out a new deal. But the Angels came along with a pretty high offer that the Jays couldn't compete. My point is that I think the Jays chose not to deal Escobar in hopes they could ink him to a new deal.

As for the other UFA we lost what's a pending UFA, losing pitcher like Lidle worth at the deadline anyways. Not much. [/b][/quote]
Lidle's value was sky high mid season before his slump. Definately dropped off at the deadline, but still they should have tried to get something for him.

[RedHot25]

Did JP make the Quantrill/Izaturis trade, or was that not still Ash?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CameronLS+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CameronLS)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I hate to harp on a single point, but the Quantrill/Izturas deal screwed the jays up so bad.

First it dealt away 2 positions that we had no strength in, Middle releif and short stop (which are VERY significant problems this very day, if he hadn't done that deal we would be in a much better position.).

Prokopec turns out to be a total bust.# Even if he settled in as the Jays 4-5 starter, I would still count this as a win for the Dodgers.[/b]

The timing is extremely important. At the time of the deal, the Jays had a good amount of depth at short. Russ Adams is currently in AAA (.277/.353/.390; 33/2/2), and while he hasnt developed the power one would like, he still has potential. At the time Chris Woodward looked like he would be a servicable replacement in the meantime.

Izturis has the flashy glove, but up until this year, his "offensive game" - and I use that term loosely - was well below replacement level. Basically, Izturis was a negative on offence.

While it would have been nice to keep Quantril, fact is, he was making $3 million a year, in the final year of his contract, as a middle reliever on a team that wasnt going anywhere in 2001. He was also months away from becomming a 10/5 man. That was just way too much money for no benifit to us. Thus, he was dealt before he gained the power to dictate where he would be traded to.

Shame Prokopec injured himself, but gaining a good starting pitching prospect at the expense of an overpaid middle reliever and a no-hit short stop is a deal I'd make any time.

<!--QuoteBegin-CameronLS
Speier deal was also bad... trading a 1st year LH pitcher for a Right handed Middle releiver is a bad trade any day.# I think Joe Kennedy was the best asset moved in that deal, really he is only 25 and has an ERA under 4 this season.[/quote]

In panning the Quantrill deal, you didnt like that we got a "4-5th starter" for a middle reliever and a no-hit shortstop. Yet in this deal, you didnt like that we gave up a 4-5 starter (and Hendrickson's potential was nowhere near Prokopecs) for a middle reliever?

Meh, either way, nothing trade, IMO. Hendrickson is already 30, and his time in the NBA set his development back significantly. If he should ever display that he can be more than a back of the rotation starter, he will do so just as his ability begins to decline due to age anyway.

----

JP hasnt been perfect, but those two deals arent nearly as bad as you make them seem.


As for Tosca's firing, a five game losing streak will do that for you, as will falling six games back of 4th place. Really a shame. The Jays are far better than they have shown this year, while Baltimore is far worse. Amazing what luck, injuries, and quality of coaching can do to you.

[CaramonLS]

Well Snake when I was watching the Jays a couple years ago I watched Izturas play, I saw a guy with great speed, amazing defense and he did hit .269 in his first season, but I mean he did only play 46 games so I thought he would definately improve next year, I saw a great short stop prospect. It took a few yrs, but hes batting 300 now.

Maybe Woodward has rubbed me the wrong way but I saw nothing but a defensive replacement, ultility player, who is just a putz.

And How long is it going to take for Russ Adams to get here... what was JP thinking... that Woodward was going to be our go to guy on shortstop?

Also watching Quantrill having a 3.04 ERA (not amazing), but going 11 and 2 as a middle releiver is nothing short of spectacular... (and I honestly thought he had 2 yrs left on his contract since he spent 2 yrs with the Dodgers and signed an extension the season before.

Honestly I thought Quantrill was far and away the best pitcher on the Jays during that Sub-par season and was well worth that 3 mill.

Sometimes you have to Spend a little to get a serious leader like Quantrill look at the seasons he had in LA, 2.70 and 1.75 ERAs. This guy is a gamer and would have been a great guy to keep around in TO.

Now Quantrill still makes 3 mill per season, and TO can't afford him? Well you can add up the Salaries of some of the worthless bucketheads Litenberg = 2.2 Million, Del La Santos = 850k, Mike Nakamura 300k (And not worth a damned cent of it).

Add up a couple of those Bums and you can get a really Quality reliever. Yes I know Litenberg is significantly underachieving, but still I would much much much rather have someone of Quantrills Calibre on the team.

Now I Consider Quantrill a Top Quality Middle Releiver, however I think a little less of Justin Speier. Which is why I do not like this deal.

Joe Kennedy, which TB gave up straight up for Hendrikson (I guess they really liked the guy), would have been an amazing number 3-4 guy, especially with Halladay out. Not only that, with the 5 year rule, Hendrikson still has 4 more years of MLB service, Kennedy 3 years and Speier is gone at the end of this year... this was Definately not a long term solution.

Now Hendrikson has picked up his game a TON this year (dropped his ERA about 1.50 pts) and his arm is still incredibly young since he never pitched until he was 30.

Getting a sub-par middle releiver like Speier you can do via Free Agency pretty easily, I think Quantrill would have been much harder to replace (which they didnt do).

[Resolute 14]

I've never looked at Woodward as being anything than what he was: A stopgap. I wasnt high at all on him, but given the choice of Woodward or Izturis, I would have chosen Woodward as well.

And while Izturis' .269 average in his rookie year may not have seemed that bad relatively speaking, his .279 OBP certantly was. And I am one who finds far, far more value in OBP than BA. Izturis followed that up by being just about the worst full time hitter in the majors in 2002. He seriously did not belong in a major league lineup until this year, and for all we know, it might simply be a fluke. But, three years ago, all signs pointed to Izturis being worthless to us.

Even if Quantrill had two years left on his deal, there was no reason to keep him. $3 million for a middle reliever is excessive to a team that isnt competing, and has been tasked to cut payroll.

Hendrickson may have picked his game up a ton, but he is still mediocre. Getting Kennedy would have been nice, but it is hard to assume that we could have reduced that three team deal to a two teamer straight up.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Aug 9 2004, 09:18 PM
I've never looked at Woodward as being anything than what he was: A stopgap. I wasnt high at all on him, but given the choice of Woodward or Izturis, I would have chosen Woodward as well.

And while Izturis' .269 average in his rookie year may not have seemed that bad relatively speaking, his .279 OBP certantly was. And I am one who finds far, far more value in OBP than BA. Izturis followed that up by being just about the worst full time hitter in the majors in 2002. He seriously did not belong in a major league lineup until this year, and for all we know, it might simply be a fluke. But, three years ago, all signs pointed to Izturis being worthless to us.

Even if Quantrill had two years left on his deal, there was no reason to keep him. $3 million for a middle reliever is excessive to a team that isnt competing, and has been tasked to cut payroll.

Hendrickson may have picked his game up a ton, but he is still mediocre. Getting Kennedy would have been nice, but it is hard to assume that we could have reduced that three team deal to a two teamer straight up.
Well you know that sometimes money for a Pitcher of Quantrills Magnititude isn't always going to depend on if hes playing for a winning team or not. I mean part of the reason Pat Hentgen was brought back was because he was such a great team player.

[CaramonLS]

I also disagree with JP's big philosophy, he concentrates not so much on pitching, but on hitting, he doesn't go out and try to find the best pitchers, rather stop gaps, see Hentgen and the entire Middle Releif.

Now personally I feel the opposite, I'd rather have a very solid front 4 starting pitchers, 2-3 rocks (top flight, elite Middle releivers, and a closer) in the 'pen.

Theres no way on a low-ball payroll that JP can even hope to win with the long-ball/walks. I mean look at Billy Beane (JP's Idol), who has 3 incredible starters, whom he locked up long term. Now that is a foundation.

Hitters take time to develop and they are generally more expensive to keep around than pitchers. I mean do you think Vernon wells is sticking around when his 5 year contract is up? Not a chance. Maybe my difference in philosophy is what makes me so critical of JP... who knows.

[JiriHrdina]

I think that's an excellent point CaramonLS in terms of disagreeing with his basic philosophies. Although I would say JP does value pitching - he just hasn't had the budget to address both the starting and bullpen needs.

However, i have a question for you - do you think our starting pitching is closer now. With Halliday, Lilly, Batista in the lineup I feel good about our rotation. If Bush is for real that is 4 quality starters I believe. Its the bullpen that is really a problem. Fraser has been good, as has Chulk. But the rest of it is a total mess.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Aug 9 2004, 11:57 PM
I think that's an excellent point CaramonLS in terms of disagreeing with his basic philosophies. Although I would say JP does value pitching - he just hasn't had the budget to address both the starting and bullpen needs.

However, i have a question for you - do you think our starting pitching is closer now. With Halliday, Lilly, Batista in the lineup I feel good about our rotation. If Bush is for real that is 4 quality starters I believe. Its the bullpen that is really a problem. Fraser has been good, as has Chulk. But the rest of it is a total mess.
If Bush is for real, which I hope he is, then definately our starting 4 will be really good. With the 20 million we have this summer, JP needs to seriously add some bullpen help, maybe an established closer (as much as I like how Frazor has done thrust into this role, He always looks on the verge of breaking apart, I don't know why, but he should probably be in middle relief, Chulk I really like, but I wonder if he is for real.. he had a 4.XX ERA in triple A and somehow he cuts that in half in the bigs? amazing.

#5 starter is up in the air as well, Towers has really come on recently, and I like him, but who knows about Justin Miller.

Our Outfield I REALLY like. I like Rios complementing one of the best complete CF's around, Vernon Wells, I like Johnson as our lead off man as well. Gross hit his first homer today and looks like he might stick in the bigs.

Now the Infield...

Shortstop : Gomez/Woodward *Barf*
Third Base: Hinske is a damned mystery to me, he has good defense and range at 3rd base, although some of his errors still baffle me, his arm is really sub par, and you never know which batter you will see on any given night. Maybe a move to 1st would help him.
2nd base : Hudson has good hitting skills and is a nice addition to the lineup, great defense too. Very limited power though.
Catcher: Kevin Cash is NOT fit to be in the Bigs.. he can call me once he starts hitting above .200 and getting on base a little more. I like Zaun a lot, but he doesn't have the RBI numbers to be in the number 5 hole. Ideally before the Phellps trade I would have maybe experimented with Josh at Catcher (he did catch in the minors) and see if he can put up some respectable defense.
1st Base/DH: Something that needs to be addressed with Cat and Delgado both walking at the end of this season, I think Cat is going to get huge money (way off the jays pay scale because of his nice numbers he put up this season, would be great if we could resign him though. Maybe Gross is moving to DH or Johnson I don't know. I am definately not sold on that Minor leaguer stepping in to fill the void at 1st base (who we got for phelps). But the Jays have 20 million to play with so hopefully they sign some big names on the FA market.

Personally if I were JP I would have traded Cat and Zaun to the Marlins for Hee Sop Choi, Sured up 1st base for a long time. (probably fair value considering the Marlins/Dodgers trade). Maybe done it before the deadline to get it in Delgados head hes NOT coming back. Then maybe dealt delgado for something.

Its too bad we didn't have the cash last season, and Signed Pudge (who would have sured up that catcher position)..

But the positions we need to deal with are:
1st Base (not sold on that dude we got for Phelps)
DH
Catcher (Kevin Cash is not the Answer, he should hit better than .270 in AAA before he gets called up).
Shortstop (Gomez/Woodward Tandem makes me ill).
Middle Relief (enough said)
Closer (not nessesarily in this order).

[JiriHrdina]

Excellent thoughts dude. Here's my analysis

Bullpen - I agree - hopefully JP's uses some of the freed up budget to rebuild the pen. Its been our biggest weakness for many many years. Unfortunately we won't hae as much money as one might think. A lot of players (Wells and Hinske for instance) have significant jumps in their salaries for next season that will cut into the budget. But we should still have a lot to play with.

Frasor has done an admirable job as the closer but I'd rather see him as a set up man. Bring in a true closer. Chulk looks very good but I share your concerns. The rest of the bull pen should be rebuilt from the ground up.

Starting pitching - in good shape. I think Bush is the real deal. And I think if Justin Miller can come back next year 100% healthy he could be our #5. When he was healthy a couple of years ago he looked great.

SS - Agreed. Although Gomez has done a fair job. Woodward is horrible. His bat has gone away and his defense is brutal. Russ Adams - please hurry up!

2B - I like Orlando but I think he should give up on the switch hitting.

3B - Where is the Eric Hinske from 2 seasons ago and will he every return? That is a key question for this team

1B/DH - Agreed. Big question marks there. I don't think Cat will command as much as you think. He's always been a strong hitter but because of his lack of power a lot of teams shy away from him. He could be back with the Jays I think. But who's our 1B? I have no idea but there should be someone decent out there who we can get as a FA.

Outfield - the strenghth of this team. Rios, Gross and Wells are going to be this team's outfield for a very long time I think. Johnson is the odd guy out which is too bad because he plays the game as it should be played. Maybe he can be swapped for bullpen help or 1B help?

Catcher - Despite the fact that the Jays haven't developed a good catcher in so long and Cash doesn't look good at all, this hasn't been a problem for us. Between Myers last year and Zahn this year its been a strength actually. But long-term we need someone. I hear this Quiroz guy in AAA could be the long-term solution.

So lots of questions but some good pieces in place I think. What's going to be key is what JP does with his salary room next season. I will base my judgements about his long-term future with the organization on those moves.

[CaramonLS]

If Cat resigns I will withdraw my comments to move him, I still don't understand why JP didn't trade him since by all accounts he is going to test the market.

Yeah I do think Catcher has been our strength the last couple years, but how often can we have a horse shoe up our ass at that position.

Where would we be if Zaun hadn't had his fluke season, he was pencilled in to be our AAA catcher.

It just would have been nice to get some foundation blocks, it really has stunned me how JP wont work the trading deadline (I guess Oakland didn't return his calls). The Adams and Phelps deals pale in comparison to what could be.

Cat though, he has #2 spot written all over him, hes got OK power, not great, but good OBP and batting avg, I really hope he resigns.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Aug 9 2004, 07:33 PM
Chulk I really like, but I wonder if he is for real.. he had a 4.XX ERA in triple A and somehow he cuts that in half in the bigs? amazing.



Chulk had an ERA of 2.83 in the minors this year. He has added 5 mph to hsi fastball this year. Last year he had a 4.xx era in triple A but in double and single A he put up good numbers. So really he didn't cut his era in half and has probably improved this year.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Aug 9 2004, 05:37 PM
I also disagree with JP's big philosophy, he concentrates not so much on pitching, but on hitting, he doesn't go out and try to find the best pitchers, rather stop gaps, see Hentgen and the entire Middle Releif.
I don't think JP has more of an emphasis on hitting like you say. It just in the jay's minor league system before JP arrived, there was no pitching, that is almost literal.

He likes to develop players from within the system. He drafted so many pitchers the last few years, lots of pitching will be coming soon. Plus the jays don't have the money to go out and sign big name pitchers, guys that would be good. thats why it appears he concentrates on hitting. As before when JP just arrived, we didn't have too many good pitching prospects in the high minors and many good hitters (phelps, wells, hudson etc...). So really the only guys JP coudl bring in were hitters. We couldn't afford teh high end pitching out of the free agent markets, and JP tried to trade for some pitching and he couldn't get what he wanted/screwed up on few deals. We should evaluate his ability to draft pitchers in a few years not now.

[Andrew]

plus this year, you can blame tosca for the bad bullpen. he bring in like 6 pitchers to face 6 batters half the time cause statistics are bad. Pitchers are human and need time to rest, if you keep doing this they will wear down. He also takes out pitchers when they are not tired.

We have a bunch fo veteran relievers that should be good, as in the past they have put up good numbers for many years. I personally feel tosca really screwed up the pitching thsi year. Nobody in the bullpen but chulk and frasor have defined roles.

[flambers]

Starting Pitching - Rotation has pretty good numbers. I feel its a strength

BullPen - Major dissapointment. I would guess JP will find some help in the offseason

1st Base - Good-Bye Delgado. Once again, JP will sign or trade for a 1st baseman.

2nd Base - Orlando is a golden glover for sure but his hitting needs to improve.

SS - Gomez / Woodward - below avg guys. I hope Russ Adams is ready next season

3rd Base - JP will stay with Hinske

Outfield - Strength but do these guys have enough power? Very few Homeruns. Outfield needs to show more power...............

DH - Not sure. I liked Phelps.

Catcher - Zaun is not the answer. Jays need to play Cash to see what this guy can do. If he can not hit they will need to find a number 1 catcher.

Manager - Tosca was not a good Manager. JP best move will be to find a Top Manager.

[The Goon]

I think you're all missing where the real blame belongs-on those hideous new uniforms and new logo! The team's been mailing it in since they had to wear those awful hats.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Aug 9 2004, 11:37 PM
I also disagree with JP's big philosophy, he concentrates not so much on pitching, but on hitting, he doesn't go out and try to find the best pitchers, rather stop gaps, see Hentgen and the entire Middle Releif.

Now personally I feel the opposite, I'd rather have a very solid front 4 starting pitchers, 2-3 rocks (top flight, elite Middle releivers, and a closer) in the 'pen.

Theres no way on a low-ball payroll that JP can even hope to win with the long-ball/walks. I mean look at Billy Beane (JP's Idol), who has 3 incredible starters, whom he locked up long term. Now that is a foundation.

And the A's drafted those three incredible starters. They didnt just sign them to big contracts as free agents. The Jays - and A's - dont have the money to sign big name pitchers, especially the four that you believe we need. JP's philosophy isnt that pitching isnt important. It is that it needs to be developed. JP's true worth will be revealed as his draft picks begin to mature and join the big club.

JP concentrates on hitting right now because good hitters are much cheaper than good pitchers. He can get a Catalanotto fairly cheap, but a good pitcher (like Lidle before he came here and sucked) costs over $5 million. Once the pitching prospects make their way up the ladder, if we are so fortunate to have found a diamond out of that group to pair with Halladay, the Jays will be fine.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Andrew+Aug 10 2004, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Andrew @ Aug 10 2004, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 9 2004, 07:33 PM
Chulk I really like, but I wonder if he is for real.. he had a 4.XX ERA in triple A and somehow he cuts that in half in the bigs? amazing.



Chulk had an ERA of 2.83 in the minors this year. He has added 5 mph to hsi fastball this year. Last year he had a 4.xx era in triple A but in double and single A he put up good numbers. So really he didn't cut his era in half and has probably improved this year. [/b][/quote]
Yeah I was just looking at TSN's site for the numbers on Chulk, they didn't have his AAA numbers from this season.

How he can add 5 mph on his FB this year is pretty damned good considering his age.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by flambers@Aug 10 2004, 03:14 AM


Outfield - Strength but do these guys have enough power? Very few Homeruns. Outfield needs to show more power...............


Gross has 1 home run in 3 games... that works out to 50+ home runs for the season :lol:

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Andrew@Aug 10 2004, 02:58 AM
plus this year, you can blame tosca for the bad bullpen. he bring in like 6 pitchers to face 6 batters half the time cause statistics are bad. Pitchers are human and need time to rest, if you keep doing this they will wear down. He also takes out pitchers when they are not tired.

We have a bunch fo veteran relievers that should be good, as in the past they have put up good numbers for many years. I personally feel tosca really screwed up the pitching thsi year. Nobody in the bullpen but chulk and frasor have defined roles.
Man I don't know about that... Litenberg had his shot at being the closer, same with Adams, both failed in that defined role.

I mean does Del la Santos and Litenberg need to know the exact seconds they are going to pitch?? I mean both are middle releif and Litenberg is considered the backup setup man right now. Does that account for the ballooned ERA?

Nakamura also had a definated role as the Early middle releif/long reliever.
7.36 ERA.

Same with Speier.

I don't know I just can't accept the reasoning that because these guys weren't set up men anymore that they couldn't deal with their roles and suddenly became sieves. You warm up, you go out there and you pitch. As a middle releiver you should be at least versitile to a minor role change.

[calculoso]

Originally posted by The Goon@Aug 9 2004, 10:00 PM
I think you're all missing where the real blame belongs-on those hideous new uniforms and new logo! The team's been mailing it in since they had to wear those awful hats.
Here Here... It didn't work for the Devil Rays, why would it work for the Jays?

I want the old logo back... the Blue Jay logo. I don't necessarily want the light/pastel blue back, but the old logo was awesome.

[CaramonLS]

flambers when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

03 - 106 Abs, .179 OPB, .142 Avg
04 - 154 Abs, .262 OPB. .201 Avg

CASH IS COLD
.100 in last 30AB

I know Zaun isn't a long term Solution, but hes done very very good this year for us.

[calculoso]

JP has no patience with pitchers.

Carpenter goes down with a shoulder injury and JP lets him go. He signs a $500k contract with the Cards and after he recovers he's gold as he was before. How good would he look in the Jays' rotation?

Last year, Lopez was the Jays setup man. This year he can't even make the team? I'm wondering if the same thing will happen with Chulk and Frasor next year :unsure:

Trevor Miller was good for the Jays last year, but he goes out and gets De la Santos instead?

As for the rest:

Woodward I've never been a fan of. I think getting rid of Lopez was much worse than Izturis.

Izturis was always ticketed to be a 2B player, not SS. With Homer Bush (at the time) and Hudson (now) at 2B, Izturis wasn't needed. Too bad Prokopec was injured (see no patience above). Quantrill I've always liked (and was sad to see him go), but you have to give to get and when Prokopec was thought to be a top flight starter then it seemed okay.


Now that the season is pretty much over, I want to see all the young guys.. the future.. brought in to play. Give them some big league experience. Play Cash instead of Zaun (even though I like Zaun, I don't see him as the future). Play Gross and Rios instead of Johnson (see Zaun). Bring up Adams if they think he's close. Look at the young pitchers. Look to the future - this year is toast.

[calculoso]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Aug 10 2004, 11:19 AM
when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

If you're expecting a young player to come in right away and light it up, you're expecting too much.

Cash isn't a heavy hitter (for power or average). He never has been. Problem is that if you keep him out of the lineup and don't let him see big league pitching, he never will be either.

Cash needs experience. It's his time to either sink or swim... but he needs time to do it.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by calculoso@Aug 10 2004, 05:28 PM


Now that the season is pretty much over, I want to see all the young guys.. the future.. brought in to play. Give them some big league experience. Play Cash instead of Zaun (even though I like Zaun, I don't see him as the future). Play Gross and Rios instead of Johnson (see Zaun). Bring up Adams if they think he's close. Look at the young pitchers. Look to the future - this year is toast.
Why don't you want to see Johnson play? Hes a really good leadoff man and Gross has only played 3 Games.

Hes only 27 and has 1 season under his belt.

Zaun on the other hand is 33 and is a much older player.

[calculoso]

I see Gross as having a lot more potential than Johnson. Johnson is a good player and plays the way the game should be played (ie: full out all the time), but I don't see him being near the player Gross could be. Menichino is much the same - a good player, but doesn't have the potential to be great.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by calculoso@Aug 10 2004, 01:02 PM
I see Gross as having a lot more potential than Johnson. Johnson is a good player and plays the way the game should be played (ie: full out all the time), but I don't see him being near the player Gross could be. Menichino is much the same - a good player, but doesn't have the potential to be great.
I think Reed Johnson is great. Has all 5 tools, not all of them are especially great but he definatley has the potential to improve them. He's got pop, speed, great defense, great arm..and a good bat.

[calculoso]

Originally posted by Jiggy_12@Aug 10 2004, 02:32 PM
I think Reed Johnson is great. Has all 5 tools, not all of them are especially great but he definatley has the potential to improve them. He's got pop, speed, great defense, great arm..and a good bat.
That's just it. "Not all of them are especially great."

If there's someone who has a much better potential at becoming "great", shouldn't the playing time to go him?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by calculoso+Aug 10 2004, 05:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Aug 10 2004, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 10 2004, 11:19 AM
when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

If you're expecting a young player to come in right away and light it up, you're expecting too much.

Cash isn't a heavy hitter (for power or average). He never has been. Problem is that if you keep him out of the lineup and don't let him see big league pitching, he never will be either.

Cash needs experience. It's his time to either sink or swim... but he needs time to do it. [/b][/quote]
Cash is very unlikely to be anything more than he is now: a no-hit catcher who handles a pitching staff very, very well. His top end is a platoon catcher with someone who can hit a little.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by calculoso+Aug 10 2004, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Aug 10 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jiggy_12@Aug 10 2004, 02:32 PM
I think Reed Johnson is great. Has all 5 tools, not all of them are especially great but he definatley has the potential to improve them. He's got pop, speed, great defense, great arm..and a good bat.
That's just it. "Not all of them are especially great."

If there's someone who has a much better potential at becoming "great", shouldn't the playing time to go him? [/b][/quote]
Possibly, but not at the sacrifice of another player with good potential. I like Reed as an every day player, he's very consistent.

[flambers]

Originally posted by calculoso+Aug 10 2004, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Aug 10 2004, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 10 2004, 11:19 AM
when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

If you're expecting a young player to come in right away and light it up, you're expecting too much.

Cash isn't a heavy hitter (for power or average). He never has been. Problem is that if you keep him out of the lineup and don't let him see big league pitching, he never will be either.

Cash needs experience. It's his time to either sink or swim... but he needs time to do it. [/b][/quote]
I don't see Zaun as the Jays future number 1 guy. The Jays Season is over, let Cash play the majority of the games and see what this guy can do. If he continues to struggle with his offense. JP needs to find another Catcher.

Cash has great defensive ability but a Catcher has to hit............

[flambers]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+Aug 10 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ Aug 10 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by calculoso@Aug 10 2004, 05:31 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 10 2004, 11:19 AM
when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

If you're expecting a young player to come in right away and light it up, you're expecting too much.

Cash isn't a heavy hitter (for power or average). He never has been. Problem is that if you keep him out of the lineup and don't let him see big league pitching, he never will be either.

Cash needs experience. It's his time to either sink or swim... but he needs time to do it.
Cash is very unlikely to be anything more than he is now: a no-hit catcher who handles a pitching staff very, very well. His top end is a platoon catcher with someone who can hit a little. [/b][/quote]
I agree with this totally, but if the Jays want to win they need a Catcher that can hit.

Look at Detroit..........

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by flambers+Aug 11 2004, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (flambers @ Aug 11 2004, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Snakeeye@Aug 10 2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by calculoso@Aug 10 2004, 05:31 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Aug 10 2004, 11:19 AM
when do you say enough is enough for Cash?

If you're expecting a young player to come in right away and light it up, you're expecting too much.

Cash isn't a heavy hitter (for power or average). He never has been. Problem is that if you keep him out of the lineup and don't let him see big league pitching, he never will be either.

Cash needs experience. It's his time to either sink or swim... but he needs time to do it.
Cash is very unlikely to be anything more than he is now: a no-hit catcher who handles a pitching staff very, very well. His top end is a platoon catcher with someone who can hit a little.
I agree with this totally, but if the Jays want to win they need a Catcher that can hit.

Look at Detroit.......... [/b][/quote]
Its really too bad Pudge is locked up for 4 years... at 10 million for what he brings its a complete steal. Why didn't Delgado's contract expire last year??