Vancouver 2010 Olympic official countdown unveiling turns nasty

[Scrambler]

Holy crap, I left the office today to go down to the Vancouver Art Gallery to see the unveiling of the three year countdown to Vancouver 2010. Hundreds of protesters armed with eggs, water balloons, heckling voices made quite attempt to ruin the presentation. The primary chant being "Homes not Games".

Disgusting display by these people who obviously don't any sympathy to their cause. It's people like this that keep Vancouver's Downtown Eastside the hell-hole it is.

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

Just imagine what going to happen during the games

cant wait for that traffic over the lions gate to quadriple...

there is alot of hardcore socialist on the west coast, there is always a good protest during every event held here....

[browna]

Holy crap, I left the office today to go down to the Vancouver Art Gallery to see the unveiling of the three year countdown to Vancouver 2010. Hundreds of protesters armed with eggs, water balloons, heckling voices made quite attempt to ruin the presentation. The primary chant being "Homes not Games".

Disgusting display by these people who obviously don't any sympathy to their cause. It's people like this that keep Vancouver's Downtown Eastside the hell-hole it is.

Vancouverites throwing things to disrupt things? Say it aint so?
Any other garbage thrown, previously seen on GM Place Ice?

What about green sweaters? Any of those thrown today?

[bluejays]

Now that's a protest. Honestly, at school there are some ridiculous protests where the people involved just come across looking like screeching emo idiots. If you're gonna protest, do it right.

It never turned violent, so it's all good...the eggs must have made it a ball. :)

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Yep, I just left downtown... pretty disappointing.

I have a moral conflict here. I LOVE, LOVE the Olympics. It's my excuse for not showering/going outside for two weeks every two years. I went to the Art Gallery all pumped and left crying. Seriously, I couldn't believe the opposition!

This is harsh. Protesters getting arrested, angry environmentalists, native peoples upset that it's taking place on stolen land, people not wanting corporate coruption and infiltration... this was all too much for me because I tend to agree. Why are we spending millions of dollars when there is a serious case of homelessness here?

Bah! I hate being a socialist!

P.S. Thanks Scrambler for starting this thread... this really bothered me.

[Scrambler]

Just imagine what going to happen during the games

cant wait for that traffic over the lions gate to quadriple...

there is alot of hardcore socialist on the west coast, there is always a good protest during every event held here....

Socialists? Yeah, I guess it's a branch of Socialism. It just seems strange to me that if these people think that causing a ruckus is going to make people want to buy houses for them they've got another thing coming.

The most appropriate place for these people is perhaps China - probably the closest to Socialist Utopia it gets.

IMO, you'd think these people would love the Olympics, hundreds of thousands more people to bum change from!

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Hey, come on! "These people" who bum change are people too. Or are you one of those people who drive past them in your Beamer and smile?

The point is, they've got a point. These games are costing a lot of money, imagine, for a second, that they put that money towards housing for these people. Viola! East Van is the Shan-gri-la!

And China isn't Socialist, China is Totalitarian.

[SpitFire40]

That's what you get for putting the games in hippie-ville

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Yes, why don't we have the Olympics in Awesomeville instead?

Jackass.

[ken0042]

I guess my thought is by hosting the olympics, they are creating a whack of jobs. Construction now, various event jobs, and then the residual after the Olympics pack up. 19 years after the Olympics left Calgary there are still jobs here as a result; both from tourism and the people running places like the Oval and COP.

How much busier will Whistler be in 2011 with the new highway in place?

[Looger]

these words - socialist, fascist, totalitarian, et al are all context, i cannot believe people even try to debate them as absolute concepts.

[SpitFire40]

Yes, why don't we have the Olympics in Awesomeville instead?

Jackass.

Hey, I love Vancouver... More than Calgary to be honest with you. But there's no denying that it's hippie central.

Anyways, Ken makes a good point. The jobs that'll be created from these games will be copious.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

these words - socialist, fascist, totalitarian, et al are all context, i cannot believe people even try to debate them as absolute concepts.

Nobody said anything about absolute concepts, but the categorizing of states and ideologies is nothing new, nor appropriate in this thread?

AHHHHHHH! I'm not getting involved. I'm outta here!

[SpitFire40]

Nobody said anything about absolute concepts, but the categorizing of states and ideologies is nothing new, nor appropriate in this thread?

AHHHHHHH! I'm not getting involved. I'm outta here!

*Throws eggs, and water balloons* :w00t:

[Looger]

well, you could call any state 'socialist' - i mean it's pretty meaningless - whatever!

[Scrambler]

I'm not happy when I see people on the street or that look hungry. I hate to say it, but using the money spent on the Olympics to build housing in the Downtown Eastside will do what exactly?

I thought people only get free homes when they win some sort of lottery.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Hey, I love Vancouver... More than Calgary to be honest with you. But there's no denying that it's hippie central.

Anyways, Ken makes a good point. The jobs that'll be created from these games will be copious.

But Vancouver doesn't need jobs... I think. It's not like Calgary in 88 when everybody needed a job. There's plenty of construction going on unrelated to the Olympics and the Olympics is just causing the price to rise of these other projects.

Plus, what's wrong with hippie central? You got a problem with weed cafes and nude beaches dude?

[Scrambler]

I guess my thought is by hosting the olympics, they are creating a whack of jobs. Construction now, various event jobs, and then the residual after the Olympics pack up. 19 years after the Olympics left Calgary there are still jobs here as a result; both from tourism and the people running places like the Oval and COP.

How much busier will Whistler be in 2011 with the new highway in place?

That's exactly it, Vancouver having the Olympics will do far more good than bad.

[GirlySports]

Hey, come on! "These people" who bum change are people too. Or are you one of those people who drive past them in your Beamer and smile?

The point is, they've got a point. These games are costing a lot of money, imagine, for a second, that they put that money towards housing for these people. Viola! East Van is the Shan-gri-la!

And China isn't Socialist, China is Totalitarian.

Have to admit that there's no trouble in China!
Their Olympics are done, they could actually host it this summer instead of next. Do you think there are any protests in downtown Beijing? :)

[Flames Fan in West Van]

I'm not happy when I see people on the street or that look hungry. I hate to say it, but using the money spent on the Olympics to build housing in the Downtown Eastside will do what exactly?

I thought people only get free homes when they win some sort of lottery.

True, I concur. Giving people free houses isn't going to solve anything. But, you have to admit, the cost of living in Vancouver is ridiculous! I mean, I thought it was bad in Calgary... Something should be done for affordable housing, not free housing, at least.

But, maybe, investing that money into WHY these people are homeless, which a lot of the time is because of drug problems, would be beneficial too. What is leading these people to drugs? Prevention programs and rehabilitation programs so these people get off the streets. That sounds like a good place to start.

P.S. Woooooo! I love living in hippie central! I am an "us" instead of a "them"... yay!

[SpitFire40]

Plus, what's wrong with hippie central? You got a problem with weed cafes and nude beaches dude?

I'm strongly against drugs, even weed for many different reasons.

Nude beaches are good though.. :)

Anyways, I was just playing... I just don't like protestors in general. I suppose they have the right to protest but protest the right way, don't vandalize proprty with Eggs and Water baloons.

I have more respect for people walking with signs, quietly than a bunch of "hippies" yelling, screaming, vandalizing property.

The message remains the same without those negatives.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Have to admit that there's no trouble in China!
Their Olympics are done, they could actually host it this summer instead of next. Do you think there are any protests in downtown Beijing? :)

It's because it's totalitarian, they're not allowed to protest even if they wanted to. Hello?!?! Tianemen?

So, what you're saying is we should just get rid of individual rights so there would be no protests? Yeah.... that's messed.

[Scrambler]

True, I concur. Giving people free houses isn't going to solve anything. But, you have to admit, the cost of living in Vancouver is ridiculous! I mean, I thought it was bad in Calgary... Something should be done for affordable housing, not free housing, at least.

But, maybe, investing that money into WHY these people are homeless, which a lot of the time is because of drug problems, would be beneficial too. What is leading these people to drugs? Prevention programs and rehabilitation programs so these people get off the streets. That sounds like a good place to start.

P.S. Woooooo! I love living in hippie central! I am an "us" instead of a "them"... yay!

Good point, I'm not a Social Worker myself, and I don't have any idea what the solution could be (Drug addition/Mental lissues/etc). What the original point is, is what causing a riot will do to help their situation. Absolutely nothing.

[GirlySports]

It's because it's totalitarian, they're not allowed to protest even if they wanted to. Hello?!?! Tianemen?

So, what you're saying is we should just get rid of individual rights so there would be no protests? Yeah.... that's messed.

I was being sarcastic.
There are no rights there, people have been so poor that they are thrilled as heck to have an "Olympic" job and workers are mostly housed together to do the job. And they have national pride. China will put on the best show ever.. but it's just a facade that hides the inner truth. But they will profit since they are paying their workers peanuts.

Vancouver on the other hand will in big debt.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Good point, I'm not a Social Worker myself, and I don't have any idea what the solution could be (Drug addition/Mental lissues/etc). What the original point is, is what causing a riot will do to help their situation. Absolutely nothing.

Nope. It brought awareness.

I went in expecting absolutely nothing but a big hoo-rah for the Olympics in three years, because I'm a geek and get really, ridiculously excited about the Olympics... but I left totally shocked at all the problems associated with it. I was completely unaware that there was such a problem amoungst the native community. I never even for a minute thought about the cost of hosting the games in relation to the housing problem. Let alone the ecological repercussions, such as expanding the highway to Whistler... ouch. Plus, I don't want to see Coca-Cola, Rogers, or whatever crappy logo everywhere I go.

I don't know. I think that there HAS to be a middle ground somewhere here. I am sympathetic to both sides. I agree though, that it completely SUCKED having those protesters there when it could have been a cool celebration, but why do people protest in the first place? Because that's the only way people listen.

[SpitFire40]

Nope. It brought awareness.

I went in expecting absolutely nothing but a big hoo-rah for the Olympics in three years, because I'm a geek and get really, ridiculously excited about the Olympics... but I left totally shocked at all the problems associated with it. I was completely unaware that there was such a problem amoungst the native community. I never even for a minute thought about the cost of hosting the games in relation to the housing problem. Let alone the ecological repercussions, such as expanding the highway to Whistler... ouch. Plus, I don't want to see Coca-Cola, Rogers, or whatever crappy logo everywhere I go.

I don't know. I think that there HAS to be a middle ground somewhere here. I am sympathetic to both sides. I agree though, that it completely SUCKED having those protesters there when it could have been a cool celebration, but why do people protest in the first place? Because that's the only way people listen.

It didn't bring awareness, it makes the general public despise those idiots. Like I said, you can protest and get your message across without causing trouble.

[Scrambler]

Nope. It brought awareness.

I went in expecting absolutely nothing but a big hoo-rah for the Olympics in three years, because I'm a geek and get really, ridiculously excited about the Olympics... but I left totally shocked at all the problems associated with it. I was completely unaware that there was such a problem amoungst the native community. I never even for a minute thought about the cost of hosting the games in relation to the housing problem. Let alone the ecological repercussions, such as expanding the highway to Whistler... ouch. Plus, I don't want to see Coca-Cola, Rogers, or whatever crappy logo everywhere I go.

I don't know. I think that there HAS to be a middle ground somewhere here. I am sympathetic to both sides. I agree though, that it completely SUCKED having those protesters there when it could have been a cool celebration, but why do people protest in the first place? Because that's the only way people listen.

Sorry, I guess 'Nothing' was the wrong word. Awareness I think is the wrong word too. 'Anger' on the other hand might be the best way to describe it.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

It didn't bring awareness, it makes the general public despise those idiots. Like I said, you can protest and get your message across without causing trouble.

Not EVERYONE protesting was throwing eggs and causing trouble. A lot of them were just standing there with signs, like you said. That's how I learned about why everyone was so upset.

The Police were jack-asses too. Man, seriously, I even yelled "STOP!" to one of them while they were attacking this protester. :whaa:

This is ****ed. I'm still kind of shaken up... I skipped class.

[GirlySports]

Not EVERYONE protesting was throwing eggs and causing trouble. A lot of them were just standing there with signs, like you said. That's how I learned about why everyone was so upset.

The Police were jack-asses too. Man, seriously, I even yelled "STOP!" to one of them while they were attacking this protester. :whaa:

This is ****ed. I'm still kind of shaken up... I skipped class.

Sorry you had to go through that.
Sometimes it's a real eyeopener to us sports fans that

a) people dont like sports
b) people dont like the olympics
c) the police really go after protestors, even the innocent ones

[SpitFire40]

True, not everyone may have been acting like clowns but you do understand that even if 1 person of 20 does something like that it reflects the entire group right?

[Scrambler]

Not EVERYONE protesting was throwing eggs and causing trouble. A lot of them were just standing there with signs, like you said. That's how I learned about why everyone was so upset.

The Police were jack-asses too. Man, seriously, I even yelled "STOP!" to one of them while they were attacking this protester. :whaa:

This is ****ed. I'm still kind of shaken up... I skipped class.

Well the Police were fairly out numbered and did basically what they had to do when someone tried to agressively cross the line to where normal people were trying to enjoy what they came for.

Pretty low when they keep screaming and swearing when everyone else is trying to sing the fricken national anthem!

I don't blame you for be shaken up though, I not exactly getting much done here this afternoon either.

[Flash Walken]

I'm strongly against drugs, even weed for many different reasons.


I hope you don't drink.

[kevman]

I hope you don't drink.

I don't mean to start and off topic ****ing match but...what's that supose to mean???

I'm sorry but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if that's his opinion so be it. You don't know his reasons so you're in no position to judge.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

It is quite possible that the Olympics will do a great deal of good for the city of Vancouver, just look at the Sea to Sky Highway as it is right now (well at least before construction), it was one of the worst highways in Western Canada, through the expansion they are making it much safer which will hopefully result in fewer deaths on the highway. It really isn't just money that is being spent on the Olympics, it is money that is being spent on public saftey.

Are there problems in Vancouver related to homelessness and drug addictions, there sure are, but just throwing money at the issue as seems to be the common answer with many of the protesters isn't going to do anything to help their situation... people need to want to help themselves before help can truely be effective. I don't know if this is unsympathetic towards the drug abusers and I am sure many people will find it to be but the state can't coddle everyone who is down and out... There is only so much that can be done, and I personally have a problem with giving someone who hasn't done anything to earn a house a house.

[Bill Bumface]

Yes, why don't we have the Olympics in Awesomeville instead?

Jackass.

We already had them in '88.

[Bill Bumface]

This is ****ed. I'm still kind of shaken up... I skipped class.

I saw a dead bunny on the side of the road on the way to work today. I called in sick and went home to cut myself.

[calgaryrocks]

We already had them in '88.
hehe ###

[fanforever1986]

What a lovely thread.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Pretty crazy situation.
I like Flames fan in West Van, feel for both sides. And I also will be a Flames fan in West Van soon. Wierd, are you my twin?:blink:

I think overall the Olympics will benefit the city and even those who are homeless.
The reality is, that the protestors probobly saw this as an opportunity to be heard and are using the Olympics as their battleground because of the spotlight it gives, and no so much because they hate the olympics.

[Bill Bumface]

The reality is, that the protestors probobly saw this as an opportunity to be heard and are using the Olympics as their battleground because of the spotlight it gives, and no so much because they hate the olympics.

It was completely innapropriate. The Olympics do not and have never had anything to do with homelessness. This is the kind of bull**** that save the world hippie college kids do right before they go buy some weed off of one of the people they are supposedly protesting for.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I really like the clock.
How long before it's vandalized?

[FireFly]

I really like the clock.
How long before it's vandalized?

Can I see it? How did you see it?

[fanforever1986]

video link for clock: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=Canada&video_link_high=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/02/12/ctvvideologger2_500kbps_2007_02_12_1171304724.wmv&video_link_low=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/02/12/ctvvideologger2_218kbps_2007_02_12_1171303035.wmv&clip_start=00:00:00.03&clip_end=00:09:50.59&clip_caption=CTV%20Newsnet:%20Olympic%20countdown% 20clock%20unveiled&clip_id=ctvnews.20070212.00182000-00182671-clip1&subhub=video&no_ads=&sortdate=20070212&slug=olympics_clock_070212&archive=CTVNews


If thats the music they're using for the games, I like it.

[RedHot25]

I'm not happy when I see people on the street or that look hungry. I hate to say it, but using the money spent on the Olympics to build housing in the Downtown Eastside will do what exactly?

I thought people only get free homes when they win some sort of lottery.

WEll its quite often not free homes, they are still required to often pay rent, etc. A more accurate way would be to say its subsidized....

Also, keep in a mind a big chunk of homelessness as well is the working poor. These people have jobs, and are working. Full-time. They often can't afford a home, are not making enough at their job, etc. Its an extremely difficult problem.

Good point, I'm not a Social Worker myself, and I don't have any idea what the solution could be (Drug addition/Mental lissues/etc). What the original point is, is what causing a riot will do to help their situation. Absolutely nothing.

WEll, there are a variety of causes to homelessness, just like there are a variety of solutions to it. Mental health? Yup, could be. Drug addiction? Yup, could be. Have a job already? Yup, could be. The list is endless...




Are there problems in Vancouver related to homelessness and drug addictions, there sure are, but just throwing money at the issue as seems to be the common answer with many of the protesters isn't going to do anything to help their situation... people need to want to help themselves before help can truely be effective. I don't know if this is unsympathetic towards the drug abusers and I am sure many people will find it to be but the state can't coddle everyone who is down and out... There is only so much that can be done, and I personally have a problem with giving someone who hasn't done anything to earn a house a house.

You are right to an extent, people need to want to change. However, some people cannot: e.g. an addiction, e.g. mental health, e.g. they actually are working (I keep repeating this because it is a huge challenge across the country), people don't have the skills to change (not everyone knows where to look for a job, or who to talk to), some people don't seek help because they are ashamed, some people need to hit rock bottom first, etc....

I understand your view, its just important to consider all sides is all.

[Flames in 07]

True, I concur. Giving people free houses isn't going to solve anything. But, you have to admit, the cost of living in Vancouver is ridiculous! I mean, I thought it was bad in Calgary... Something should be done for affordable housing, not free housing, at least.

But, maybe, investing that money into WHY these people are homeless, which a lot of the time is because of drug problems, would be beneficial too. What is leading these people to drugs? Prevention programs and rehabilitation programs so these people get off the streets. That sounds like a good place to start.

P.S. Woooooo! I love living in hippie central! I am an "us" instead of a "them"... yay!

Great news, if housing is prohibative in Vancouver ... this is a great big, huge country that each Canadian is free to move around within.

Anyone who wants a job, can have a job, anyone who wants to EARN a home, can earn a home. Not everyone will be able to affort Yaletown, but that's capitalism for ya.

[kermitology]

I saw a dead bunny on the side of the road on the way to work today. I called in sick and went home to cut myself.

That's awesome..

And I'd classify China as opportunistic.

[FireFly]

Well, that's a pretty clock. I like it. I'm really excited about the 2010 Olympics and I hope that Vancouver and it's residents don't let Canada down.

[Jayems]

True, I concur. Giving people free houses isn't going to solve anything. But, you have to admit, the cost of living in Vancouver is ridiculous! I mean, I thought it was bad in Calgary... Something should be done for affordable housing, not free housing, at least.

But, maybe, investing that money into WHY these people are homeless, which a lot of the time is because of drug problems, would be beneficial too. What is leading these people to drugs? Prevention programs and rehabilitation programs so these people get off the streets. That sounds like a good place to start.

P.S. Woooooo! I love living in hippie central! I am an "us" instead of a "them"... yay!

What makes you think these types of programs or inititaves aren't already in place? What makes you think that they will work anyway?

I see the Vancouver 2010 games as a great showcase for the city and for Canada as a whole. I also think these protesters represent Canada to some degree.

So far, we're Beamer Driving, egg weilding, stoned hippie asshat ###### bags.

Sweet.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

You are right to an extent, people need to want to change. However, some people cannot: e.g. an addiction, e.g. mental health, e.g. they actually are working (I keep repeating this because it is a huge challenge across the country), people don't have the skills to change (not everyone knows where to look for a job, or who to talk to), some people don't seek help because they are ashamed, some people need to hit rock bottom first, etc....

I understand your view, its just important to consider all sides is all.


The working homeless is a huge area of concern but I have a hard time feeling a great deal of sympathy for many people who move to areas such as Calgary knowing the issues which are present regarding the economy and then expect, no demand, that something be done to help them in their situation. If you don't have a residence to move into, don't move. I know this is overly simple but it is also overly true. I keep hearing the sob stories on the news and that is the only thing that comes to mind, did you not think at all before you moved here, or was it something that you just decided on a whim?

Past that addictions are a huge area of concern due to the health care costs but at which point are people responsible for their own health? Yes they are addicts but they are addicts by their own choice, should they get advantages in subsidized housing that the average Canadian who has worked their whole life wouldn't even dream of? This might be more than a bit off topic that is just my opinion and I would bet that when push came to shove that is the majority of the population's opinion on the issue.

[SpitFire40]

Holy crap, I... Agree... with... MMM...

I feel dirty now :)

[HOZ]

Vancouver 2010 games.....

Brought to you by Alberta tax dollars via transfer payments! :whistle:

[Resolute 14]

Yes, why don't we have the Olympics in Awesomeville instead?

Jackass.


They did, in 1988. Best Winter Olympics the world had ever seen to that point.

;)

[Winsor_Pilates]

The working homeless is a huge area of concern but I have a hard time feeling a great deal of sympathy for many people who move to areas such as Calgary knowing the issues which are present regarding the economy and then expect, no demand, that something be done to help them in their situation. If you don't have a residence to move into, don't move. I know this is overly simple but it is also overly true. I keep hearing the sob stories on the news and that is the only thing that comes to mind, did you not think at all before you moved here, or was it something that you just decided on a whim?

Your point of view seems to assume a large number of the cities homeless moved here when Calgary boomed and then couldn't get a home.

Where have you heard that this is the case, as opposed to people who were already here pre-boom and have now found themselves homeless? (or already were)

I would guess newcomers to Calgary actually represent a very small proportion of the cities homeless.

[Sparks]

Mean Mr. Mustard:

Totally agree with your first paragraph. I'm not so sure about the second. (You probably were expecting someone to respond like this! ;)) Although some addicts undoubtedly brought it on themselves, I think it's safe to assume that a large number are there because of situational factors in their lives, out of their control - mental illness, severely abusive/messed up upbringing (perhaps also by an addict), etc.

Considering none of the above applies to me, for example, I'd say my chances of ending up a homeless addict on the streets are pretty low. Since those things are out of my control, how can I pass judgement on those people? (Or not be sympathetic?) I don't think it's a level playing field when it comes to making decisions.

I dunno - I often struggle with the problem of what decisions people are responsible for and what they aren't.

[moon]

Great news, if housing is prohibative in Vancouver ... this is a great big, huge country that each Canadian is free to move around within.

Anyone who wants a job, can have a job, anyone who wants to EARN a home, can earn a home. Not everyone will be able to affort Yaletown, but that's capitalism for ya.

That might mean they have to start taking responsibility for their own lives and make adult decisions. It is much easier to whine and cry until someone else comes along to throw their money and effort at the problem. Then you can wait until something doesn't go right for you and then cry and whine about that.

Plus didn't you get the memo that everyone has the right to live in the biggest Mansion on the hill in any city in the world they want and if they don't have the money and you do you are a POS for not giving it to them.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Your point of view seems to assume a large number of the cities homeless moved here when Calgary boomed and then couldn't get a home.

Where have you heard that this is the case, as opposed to people who were already here pre-boom and have now found themselves homeless? (or already were)

I would guess newcomers to Calgary actually represent a very small proportion of the cities homeless.


Doing a quick google search of the rates of homelessness in Calgary I was able to come across an article from 2004 which showed that the rates of homeless families increased by 148% from 2002, and the overall rates of homelessness increased by 49% in the same timeframe. The problem is getting much worse as Calgary becomes a bigger city, as I guess one would expect. Just look at the Brick building on 16th Avenue N, in years past there has been enough drop in beds for the night but as it stands right now all the beds are full every night.

With regards to addicts, I do feel bad that they are in the situation that they are in, and I do know a large number of natives (brought up because generally they are the most at risk in our society) who have informed me as to the day to day lives of the reserves in Canada and why some of the problems exist. At a certain point though there is a choice made by everyone as to which path they want to travel, with some that choice may be harder (people who have been victims of abuse for example), but there is still a cognative choice. Treatment for mental illness on the other hand is something that I can fully support, as it is something completely out of their control. I guess it is hard to make broad sweeping generalizations when dealing with individual situations though, as I am sure that there are many people who my views would accuratly encompass while at the same time there are many whose would not, that is the problem with politics in my view, it is trying to put the round peg into a square hole and if it doesn't go, just hitting it with a hammer (in the form of a wad of cash) in the hopes that something will change.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Doing a quick google search of the rates of homelessness in Calgary I was able to come across an article from 2004 which showed that the rates of homeless families increased by 148% from 2002, and the overall rates of homelessness increased by 49% in the same timeframe. The problem is getting much worse as Calgary becomes a bigger city, as I guess one would expect. Just look at the Brick building on 16th Avenue N, in years past there has been enough drop in beds for the night but as it stands right now all the beds are full every night.


Yeah, but how does that show these people came from outside of Calgary?

It's more likely these were people who already lived here, could afford it in the old days and then all of the sudden fell behind when their jobs didn't pay enough to keep up with skyrocketing living costs.

The people who move here with nothing, and then "demand" help as you put it, are likely few and far between.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Yeah, but how does that show these people came from outside of Calgary?

It's more likely these were people who already lived here, could afford it in the old days and then all of the sudden fell behind when their jobs didn't pay enough to keep up with skyrocketing living costs.

The people who move here with nothing, and then "demand" help as you put it, are likely few and far between.
That is a possibility that people were forced out onto the streets but the way in which it has often been portrayed int he media is that people are coming to Calgary without a place to live, in fact there was a politician (can't remember who) who was urging people not to move to Alberta if they didn't have a place to live because they were just becoming part of the homeless population. I would suspect that it is a combination of the two where there is a significant number of people who were forced out due to the rising cost of living, while at the same time there is a large contingent of people who are moving to Calgary without the proper housing arrangments being made ahead of time, and I would imagine that it would be hard to apply for a job when you don't have an address.

[Bill Bumface]

They did, in 1988. Best Winter Olympics the world had ever seen to that point.

;)

We already had them in '88.

:confused:

[Flames Fan in West Van]

I don't mean to start and off topic ****ing match but...what's that supose to mean???

I'm sorry but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if that's his opinion so be it. You don't know his reasons so you're in no position to judge.

It's supposed to mean that alcohol IS a drug - It's just more socially acceptable (in Alberta anyway). So is caffeine, tobacco...

[Flames Fan in West Van]

I saw a dead bunny on the side of the road on the way to work today. I called in sick and went home to cut myself.

Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hah ha ha ha ha ha!

######bag. :whistle:

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Pretty crazy situation.
I like Flames fan in West Van, feel for both sides. And I also will be a Flames fan in West Van soon. Wierd, are you my twin?:blink:


Pfft! You wish you looked like me... ;)

But, I'll sell you the rights to "Flames Fan in West Van" for a fair price...

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Great news, if housing is prohibative in Vancouver ... this is a great big, huge country that each Canadian is free to move around within.

Anyone who wants a job, can have a job, anyone who wants to EARN a home, can earn a home. Not everyone will be able to affort Yaletown, but that's capitalism for ya.

Wasn't it Klein who bought a greyhound ticket for all the homeless people in Alberta to go to BC?

What you are failing to understand is pretty elementary: The Canadian Climate. BC is the only place in the entire country where homeless people can survive pretty much all year around outside in the elements. This plays a huge factor in the number of homeless people here. Hey, when was the last time you heard of a homeless person dying in a bus shelter in Calgary... oh, wait...

You can't apply "Alberta solutions" of just get a job you lazy ass here. Vancouver's culture is so radically different than Calgary's... I mean, when was the last time there was a protest in Calgary? I walk by the Vancouver Art Gallery everyday, and that was the second protest this week. This place doesn't just ignore the problem, or sweep it under the rug (or the preverbial rug the old Brick on 16th). People here expect something to be done, as it is they have already set up safe injection sites that have drastically reduced the amount of money spent on ambulances, let alone drop in IV illnesses. When do you think Calgary will set their's up? Yeah... I'ld like to see that.

It's not about getting a job and buying a house. It's deeper than that, so much deeper than that. It's mental health, it's addictions, it's the sex-trade, it's societal pressures, it's class stratification, it's racism, sexism, it's a lot of things, not just getting a job.

[RedHot25]

Kudos to everyone keeping a good discussion in this thread....(although I guess West Van is now banned if I read that right?).

Anyways....

The working homeless is a huge area of concern but I have a hard time feeling a great deal of sympathy for many people who move to areas such as Calgary knowing the issues which are present regarding the economy and then expect, no demand, that something be done to help them in their situation. If you don't have a residence to move into, don't move.

Past that addictions are a huge area of concern due to the health care costs but at which point are people responsible for their own health? Yes they are addicts but they are addicts by their own choice, should they get advantages in subsidized housing that the average Canadian who has worked their whole life wouldn't even dream of?

Fair enough, Mr. Mustard. A couple of quick points:

1) Like Winsor quoted below, Calgary's homeless population does have a big chunk of people that were here and got displaced. A big thing too is that while there are jobs everything, the cost of a place to live is sky high. Yes that is the byproduct of a hot economy, but when the job you are at can no longer afford you a place to live, or makes you have to make difficult choices...

Also, yes, a chunk is likely people moving to Calgary. As someone who has lived outside of Alberta (in 2 different provices) while the boom/good times are on, I can tell you that it is thought of as an attractive place to go to (kind of obvious) from a lot of people. However, keep in mind that its often more of a consideration of what they are leaving if that makes sense. For e.g., a lot of people here in the Maritimes in my opinion don't really want to leave, but when there are not nearly enough jobs, you are working but struggling to make ends meet, and Alberta companies are recruiting like crazy down here (ads and supplements in the newspapers, hiring fairs, etc)...its not hard to see why you move.

And sure there are some currently homeless who move to Calgary...however, keep in mind that it is not cheap to move across the country (even if you hitch hike etc). I would hazard to guess that this group moving to alberta is low because they simply can't afford to get there.

2) Since my earlier bit is quite large, I will keep this part short. Not everyone is an addict by their own choice...you would be surprised how many people are walking by and put one coin in a slot machine, are at a party and try one thing, etc. Not the case for everyone, yes, but you do have to keep in mind the other side....that some bad things are addictive in themselves.

I quoted Sparks below because I think he/she raises good points in that.

Your point of view seems to assume a large number of the cities homeless moved here when Calgary boomed and then couldn't get a home.

Where have you heard that this is the case, as opposed to people who were already here pre-boom and have now found themselves homeless? (or already were)

I would guess newcomers to Calgary actually represent a very small proportion of the cities homeless.

Although some addicts undoubtedly brought it on themselves, I think it's safe to assume that a large number are there because of situational factors in their lives, out of their control - mental illness, severely abusive/messed up upbringing (perhaps also by an addict), etc.

Considering none of the above applies to me, for example, I'd say my chances of ending up a homeless addict on the streets are pretty low. Since those things are out of my control, how can I pass judgement on those people? (Or not be sympathetic?) I don't think it's a level playing field when it comes to making decisions.

Doing a quick google search of the rates of homelessness in Calgary I was able to come across an article from 2004 which showed that the rates of homeless families increased by 148% from 2002, and the overall rates of homelessness increased by 49% in the same timeframe. The problem is getting much worse as Calgary becomes a bigger city, as I guess one would expect. Just look at the Brick building on 16th Avenue N, in years past there has been enough drop in beds for the night but as it stands right now all the beds are full every night.

With regards to addicts, I do feel bad that they are in the situation that they are in, and I do know a large number of natives (brought up because generally they are the most at risk in our society) who have informed me as to the day to day lives of the reserves in Canada and why some of the problems exist. At a certain point though there is a choice made by everyone as to which path they want to travel, with some that choice may be harder (people who have been victims of abuse for example), but there is still a cognative choice.

I understand what you are saying, but absuse is not an easy one - the domination and control exerted by the abuser (emotional, physical, financial whatever) is quite profound. Do you leave if you have no where to go? Do you leave if you have absolutely no money? Are you "ashamed to leave" (even though you shouldn't be, but that feeling is quite prevelant)? etc etc...

Also with regards to homeless #s. I think part of it is because we are just growing so much (so the # of homeless increases based on size), and I think a factor is also greater awareness. We all know hear about the Drop In Centre/Mustard Seed, but when you hear about the Brick on 16th Ave being turned into a homeless shelter, that catches some eyes...i.e. is it really that much/that bad? Aren't there enough spots at the Drop In Centre etc?

BC is the only place in the entire country where homeless people can survive pretty much all year around outside in the elements. This plays a huge factor in the number of homeless people here.

It's not about getting a job and buying a house. It's deeper than that, so much deeper than that. It's mental health, it's addictions, it's the sex-trade, it's societal pressures, it's class stratification, it's racism, sexism, it's a lot of things, not just getting a job.

I think these are both a good couple of points. The top one is quite relevant; having lived in Vancouver and Calgary, I can tell you if I was homeless, and if I was able to make the choice, I would prefer to be homeless in Van over Calgary.

Cheers.

[HalifaxDrunk]

B.C.'s auditor general, issued a report saying the Olympics will cost Canadians $2.5 billion, with $1.5 billion of that being picked up by B.C. residents.

The B.C. government is spending $775 million to upgrade the highway that links Vancouver to Whistler. Another $2 billion is being spent to build a transit line between the airport and downtown Vancouver, with a stop at the athletes village.

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.

[Looger]

nonsense HalifaxDrunk, BC spends its money responsibly.

sincerely, BC Ferries.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

2) Since my earlier bit is quite large, I will keep this part short. Not everyone is an addict by their own choice...you would be surprised how many people are walking by and put one coin in a slot machine, are at a party and try one thing, etc. Not the case for everyone, yes, but you do have to keep in mind the other side....that some bad things are addictive in themselves.

That is an interesting point but at the same time it is the people's choice to make those decisions to put the coin in the slot (I assume you mean a gambling addiction, which is completely different than a physiological addiction I believe) or by trying something at a party, they are making the decision.

Now I believe that health care should still be provided but at the same time how far should the government go? Should they be responsible for everything in the crack addicts life merely because they made some poor choices.

I know I have an addictive personality (hense why I am here I guess ;) ) but at the same time I take that into consideration and use rationale thought processes when I make decisions, if I did everything that I thought was cool or decided on a whim, I would be dead right now.

[RedHot25]

I know I have an addictive personality (hense why I am here I guess ;) ) but at the same time I take that into consideration and use rationale thought processes when I make decisions, if I did everything that I thought was cool or decided on a whim, I would be dead right now.


Fair enough, but the thing is - for whatever reason - some people do not have the capacity/ability/etc to make those rational decisions. Sometimes, and its hard for me to explain this, its just not as easy as just making that rationale decision to stop whatever it is.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Fair enough, but the thing is - for whatever reason - some people do not have the capacity/ability/etc to make those rational decisions. Sometimes, and its hard for me to explain this, its just not as easy as just making that rationale decision to stop whatever it is.



I understand where you are coming from it is usually a concoction of peer pressure with a desire to escape their world, even temporarily but what happens in the end is that the addictions wind up taking over their world and making life that much worse as everytime they do sober up they are forced to see what has become of their lives and the only way that they can deal with that is through drugs,alcohol,further gambling, etc, etc. Then there are the obvious physiological addictions associated with drug use which can't be overlooked.

I understand for the most part the mindset of a drug addict but the question I have is how much of a handout should they get?

[RedHot25]

I understand where you are coming from it is usually a concoction of peer pressure with a desire to escape their world, even temporarily but what happens in the end is that the addictions wind up taking over their world and making life that much worse as everytime they do sober up they are forced to see what has become of their lives and the only way that they can deal with that is through drugs,alcohol,further gambling, etc, etc. Then there are the obvious physiological addictions associated with drug use which can't be overlooked.

I understand for the most part the mindset of a drug addict but the question I have is how much of a handout should they get?

Point #1 - Fair enough.

Point #2 - Well.....I think society has been debating that point since (basically) the dawn of time....

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

B.C.'s auditor general, issued a report saying the Olympics will cost Canadians $2.5 billion, with $1.5 billion of that being picked up by B.C. residents.

The B.C. government is spending $775 million to upgrade the highway that links Vancouver to Whistler. Another $2 billion is being spent to build a transit line between the airport and downtown Vancouver, with a stop at the athletes village.

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.

Excellent points, the rumor around these parts was that the rich powers up in Whistler were so ****ed and almost resigned to the fact that the BC goverement would never upgrade their money trail of a highway - that starting and backing the Olympic bid was the only way to get the highway upgraded - so it has been speculated this is one for the main reasons for this Olympic bid.. Its also been said that the highway was never going to be upgraded, never...or at least not for 20 years...

The Highway upgrade and the Canada Line (runs from the airport to downtown) are the only big commuter upgrades they are doing...traffic is a nightmare already in Vancouver and considering the traffic jams that happened on Hwy 1 in '88 - i cant imagine how horrific its going to be during the Olympics...

[Looger]

i used to live on that highway, in lillooet, close to cache creek and the junction of 97 and 99.

without the olympics i can guarantee that the whistler leg of the highway would NEVER be upgraded, it was probably #25 on the list of BC highway upgrades.

if the coquihalla had never been built, then by now it may be a better highway - it is an alternate route to kamloops, though definitely not the best!

i remember when whistler was pretty much nothing, a couple hotels (one with two very long waterslides, woohoo!), it was considered a cheap investment 20 years ago. we used to hang out there in the summer sometimes - great bike trails.

i welcome any highway upgrade surrounding vancouver, if that comes with olympics only, i guess that's better than throwing your money into the sea as per usual.

[Reaper]

I welcome any highway upgrade surrounding vancouver, if that comes with olympics only, i guess that's better than throwing your money into the sea as per usual.Well, they could decide that the new highway isn't all it is cracked up to be and then sell it for 1/10th the original cost to some other country... :clown:

[Looger]

at least highways don't rust!

[Winsor_Pilates]

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.
That's the whole point.
People don't believe it, and that's why they protest that homelessness is not a priority.
If everyone believed the BC gov was gonna put money into homelessness, they wouldn't need to protest.

[BCReefer]

I must say this has been one of the most intriguing set of posts I have read on the internet for months.

As a person who pays his taxes and commutes 2 hours a day I have a say in this as well. I feel like the average Joe but maybe my thoughts are on little more extreme.

For one thing, anything free people will take advantage of it. If we subsidise housing for the homeless, statistically there would probably be a lot of damage to these houses that cost the tax payer more money. I feel that there is a lot of social service help that is available but it is up the individual to look after himself/herself.

At the same time I would like to see Riverdale Hospital which is Vancouver’s mental institute (if I can call it that?) open up more beds to get some of the mentally handicapped off the streets and into the hospital.

If we also look at who some of the homeless are, a portion of that are the disillusioned youth who at their current stage in life, really don’t care about much. Look at the protestors, majority are in the 20 - 40 age group and instead of working, they prefer to raise holy do-do at major events. I understand why, as this gives them the limelight so needed to ensure some government action. But I prefer that these protestors spend as much time educating fellow street people, working with them to find jobs and get their self respect back. There are also “professional” protestors who appear at the flavour of the month protest.

I have no problem supporting anyone through tough times but not for years because they choose their life style.

Regarding the highway upgrades – considering the amount of deaths that occur yearly on the Sea-Sky highway the upgrades are long over due. If it takes the Olympics to get our fair share then all the better for it. About time Ottawa sent some money to BC instead of back east to buy votes. (had to get Ottawa into this social discussion).

After travelling to Germany/Japan and through different parts of the States we do a lot for our homeless, but unless we give everything free to them they will not be happy. Next it will be a protest about day care, then the students, then the nurses and teachers. Live in BC is interesting.

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

I must say this has been one of the most intriguing set of posts I have read on the internet for months.

As a person who pays his taxes and commutes 2 hours a day I have a say in this as well. I feel like the average Joe but maybe my thoughts are on little more extreme.

For one thing, anything free people will take advantage of it. If we subsidise housing for the homeless, statistically there would probably be a lot of damage to these houses that cost the tax payer more money. I feel that there is a lot of social service help that is available but it is up the individual to look after himself/herself.

At the same time I would like to see Riverdale Hospital which is Vancouver’s mental institute (if I can call it that?) open up more beds to get some of the mentally handicapped off the streets and into the hospital.

If we also look at who some of the homeless are, a portion of that are the disillusioned youth who at their current stage in life, really don’t care about much. Look at the protestors, majority are in the 20 - 40 age group and instead of working, they prefer to raise holy do-do at major events. I understand why, as this gives them the limelight so needed to ensure some government action. But I prefer that these protestors spend as much time educating fellow street people, working with them to find jobs and get their self respect back. There are also “professional” protestors who appear at the flavour of the month protest.

I have no problem supporting anyone through tough times but not for years because they choose their life style.

Regarding the highway upgrades – considering the amount of deaths that occur yearly on the Sea-Sky highway the upgrades are long over due. If it takes the Olympics to get our fair share then all the better for it. About time Ottawa sent some money to BC instead of back east to buy votes. (had to get Ottawa into this social discussion).

After travelling to Germany/Japan and through different parts of the States we do a lot for our homeless, but unless we give everything free to them they will not be happy. Next it will be a protest about day care, then the students, then the nurses and teachers. Live in BC is interesting.

Good post, also lets not forget that majority of homeless on Vancouvers downtown east end have addictions to a variety of drugs, they rather spend ever penny they get on drugs to fuel their addiction..they chose to be homeless because their next hit is more important than a roof under their head....

Housing for the homeless doesnt come close to addressing the real issue and would be a huge waste of money like you hinted.

[Scrambler]

Good post, also lets not forget that majority of homeless on Vancouvers downtown east end have addictions to a variety of drugs, they rather spend ever penny they get on drugs to fuel their addiction..they chose to be homeless because their next hit is more important than a roof under their head....

Housing for the homeless doesnt come close to addressing the real issue and would be a huge waste of money like you hinted.

Fully agree with your post and the one you quoted. I originally posted this thread to tell news of the even and share my thoughts on how ****ed off I was, but the discussion has turned much broader into a very good discussion/debate.