Video of US forces bombing british troops

[Kipru]

I didn't find other threads about this. Seems like popov36 had a bad day.


The sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-2006410749,00.html?channel=Sun%20Exclusive&clipID=1347_SUN1129)

[Cowperson]

Interesting video . . . .

The SUN is a Rupert Murdoch company and its the lead story on FOX as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250418,00.html

A transcript at CNN if you don't have time to watch:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/06/video.transcript/index.html

Cowperson

[wooohooo]

Sure is sad to see, but I don't see anything wrong the pilots did...

[Jayems]

Sure is sad to see, but I don't see anything wrong the pilots did...

You're right. Once they saw those orange markers on the trucks, which happen to be going in a single file, evenly spaced column, they were perfectly justified in shooting. I mean, hell, thats what those markers are for, but whatever, they were less than a km away from where others thought they should be. fair game. war is war. Its like those dumb canadian soldiers in afghanistan... what were they thinking shooting at US warplanes? Not like they were training.

:confused:

[Madman]

You're right. Once they saw those orange markers on the trucks, which happen to be going in a single file, evenly spaced column, they were perfectly justified in shooting. I mean, hell, thats what those markers are for, but whatever, they were less than a km away from where others thought they should be. fair game. war is war. Its like those dumb canadian soldiers in afghanistan... what were they thinking shooting at US warplanes? Not like they were training.

:confused:
Exactly, if there wasn't an acknowledgement of the orange panels by the one pilot then I could almost excuse their actions....almost.

[wooohooo]

Why exactly did those trucks have orange panels to begin with? And hasn't someone come up with a better way to communicate between friendlys? I thought they had a better way of communicating with each other from headquarters... I guess not? :whaa:

[Jayems]

Why exactly did those trucks have orange panels to begin with? And hasn't someone come up with a better way to communicate between friendlys? I thought they had a better way of communicating with each other from headquarters... I guess not? :whaa:

They are there to identify friendlies to aircraft. Yes, its a rudimentary method, but it obviously worked if the pilots noticed it. And that is the problem. They relied on some guy on the ground saying that there shouldn't be any friendlies around. The fact that the pilots saw the orange (the mark of a friendly) and they somehow decided they must be rockets is where the crime takes place. They shot first, and asked questions later. They could have waited for more confirmation ESPECIALLY because of the markings.

[Cowperson]

They are there to identify friendlies to aircraft. Yes, its a rudimentary method, but it obviously worked if the pilots noticed it. And that is the problem. They relied on some guy on the ground saying that there shouldn't be any friendlies around. The fact that the pilots saw the orange (the mark of a friendly) and they somehow decided they must be rockets is where the crime takes place. They shot first, and asked questions later. They could have waited for more confirmation ESPECIALLY because of the markings.

"Manila Hotel" isn't just "some guy on the ground." He would have been the USA Marine Corps forward air controller attached to British ground troops in that area.

"Manila Hotel" assured the pilots there were no British troops where they were, in those two particular grid squares. Theoretically, he would be the guy to know.

However, the orange tarps were the "last resort" identification for air recognition that, I'm pretty sure, all Allied units at that time in that war had in all their units.

When all the electronic wizardry fails and the system pooches itself, the simplistic orange tarps should cause an individual pilot to pause and question what they're doing.

They're guilty. They knew they were guilty even at that moment

1351.30 POPOV35:
They did say there were no friendlies.

1351.33 POPOV36:
Yeah, I know that thing with the orange panels is going to screw us. They look like orange rockets on top.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/06/video.transcript/index.html

Cowperson

[arsenal]

Wouldn't "Manila Hotel" be the AWACS plane? Either way, they are the ones that are supposed to know who is in what area.
The pilots clearly ask if there where friendlies in the area, and got the response of no. I am not sure if they are required to get clearence to engage the enemy, that would be defined in their ROE. Based on the tape, it sounds like their ROE did not include waiting to be fired upon, and to take out the enemy on sight.

There is obvious confusion as to what was on top of the flat bed trucks.
If their forward comand is telling them that there are no friendlies in the area (communication break down) the pilots has to make the decision to engage or stand down. If they are getting bad intel, the pilots are not the only ones to blame.

[burn_baby_burn]

Easy for us to say what is right and what is wrong. But with all the technology. The fact that it was in broad daylight in a region that has no foliage one would think that an incident like this could be avoided. Freindly fire happens all the time in war. But in this situation it looks like it could have been avoided.

[Cowperson]

Wouldn't "Manila Hotel" be the AWACS plane? .

From the transcript I posted earlier:

The other main call signs are MANILA HOTEL, MANILA34, and LIGHTNING34 -- three U.S. Marine Corps Forward Air Controllers on the ground attached to British units.

Later on, other call signs relay emergency cease-fire messages. They are SKY CHIEF, an American AWAC jet controlling the overall air battle and COSTA58, a British pilot nearby.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about how these guys operate, but the whole thing seems a little on the unprofessional side.

"East, I mean west, there are other planes on the mission, hey dude, I'm right behind you, now where is this canal? don't hit the other planes".

One guy even gets angry with the other guy. And the orange panels -- those get brought up a few times and are essentially ignored with "I think they are rocket launchers".

[burn_baby_burn]

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about how these guys operate, but the whole thing seems a little on the unprofessional side.

"East, I mean west, there are other planes on the mission, hey dude, I'm right behind you, now where is this canal? don't hit the other planes".

One guy even gets angry with the other guy. And the orange panels -- those get brought up a few times and are essentially ignored with "I think they are rocket launchers".

The issue of time is also brought up. I'm not going to listen to that tape again. But the one mentions the time. The other replys that his fuel is fine. The other says no look at the time. Like, and I'm speculating, they needed to be back to base so they were looking to get the target out of the way quickly instead of hanging around for an extended period of time.

[arsenal]

One of them was "Bingo" which means that he had enough fuel to get back to base, but that was about it.

[wooohooo]

But weren't there other planes of some sort (F-18) and some british planes in the area that could have finished off the job/waited and thusly saved the lives of friendlies?

[Kipru]

OK. I want to get that first one before he gets into town then.

Maybe thats the reason he was in a hurry. Or it was just a bad case of what the germans called "the iron cross fever", wich can also be seen in the movie "iron cross".