Unions - Your opinion

[rubecube]

Well it's official, we now have a union. When the proposal first came up it was defeated by a massive margin but, like herpes, they just wouldn't go away. They have since found a loophole (a card signing campaign) and have forced their way in. I have no problem with this except I can't opt out of it. I can forfeit my membership but they'll still take my money. My issue is with all the hardcore NDP-types who keep whining that unions aren't in enough corporations to protect employess. Why isn't there a movement to protect employees from unions?

[brownie]

Where do you work?

[rubecube]

Bell.

[Bertuzzied]

Blah. we don't live in communist 1940s Poland. Unions suck!

[CaptainCrunch]

Not a big fan of unions, in the instances that I've been involved in negotiating with businesses that are unionized there are so many silly rules that you throw up your hands and give up on any concept that might make a company more efficient.

I know that unions are there to support and protect the employee, however in a lot of ways they are like cancer devoring the host from the inside.

There is no concept of partnership from the union, thier concept is to squeeze until an employer bleeds.

The unions had thier day, but people are smarter and better educated now even at the most basic level and I don't see the purpose of the unions.

[brownie]

Well i am in a union(trades)And make about 4 or 5 bucks more an hour than I would not in a union.With full benefits,pension plan,and 10% vacation pay.Plus the fact i dont have to go out looking for work,no interviews,and its much safer work enviroment.So yes i like unions.

[Stranger]

I've never worked in a union job, but from other people I've seen I wouldn't want to be in one. They always seem to promote laziness to me. Maybe its because I'm from a farm and I'm used to working long hours for little pay.

[Looger]

i advise anyone pro-union to take a tour through some choice sawmills and pulp mills in bc, with 'union only' bathrooms etc...

tune into the radio and hear PURE LIES, propoganda of the lowest order.

see the groupthink, watch as unioned workers drop slag on non-union contractors just for fun, see all the literature on the corkboards fostering this hatred.

meet union reps that remind you of gangsters in movies.

and i'll never forget driving past union protests on my way to work where i made $19.50 an hour on the road doing industrial automation (which coincidentally gets busier when union wages go up... hmmm...), and realizing that the people bagging my groveries make $24 and are demanding more.

there's a BIG reason BC is heading for a gigantic fall economically, canfor et al are really barely operating in many sectors bacuse of the high price of the goods.

a lot of that beetle-kill was already too dry for process last april.

good luck bc...

[rubecube]

Well i am in a union(trades)And make about 4 or 5 bucks more an hour than I would not in a union.With full benefits,pension plan,and 10% vacation pay.Plus the fact i dont have to go out looking for work,no interviews,and its much safer work enviroment.So yes i like unions.

Except my bosses are actually decent people and provide me with a competitive pay, wages, vacation pay, benefits, etc.

[FireFly]

There are jobs that having a union is important for, like trades and such. (My brother and brother-in-law work for a sawmill that desperately needs a union.) However, working for your competition, I know that having a union is useless for me. Telus and Bell need to have competitive wages and compensation packages in order to employ enough people to make their business run. There's no way around that. Having a union won't make it 'better'. Everytime I notice the $20/paycheque my union steals from me, it ****es me off.

[brownie]

Except my bosses are actually decent people and provide me with a competitive pay, wages, vacation pay, benefits, etc.There are definatley pros and cons...I know for me personally I am better off in a union.

[FireFly]

i advise anyone pro-union to take a tour through some choice sawmills and pulp mills in bc, with 'union only' bathrooms etc...

tune into the radio and hear PURE LIES, propoganda of the lowest order.

see the groupthink, watch as unioned workers drop slag on non-union contractors just for fun, see all the literature on the corkboards fostering this hatred.

meet union reps that remind you of gangsters in movies.

and i'll never forget driving past union protests on my way to work where i made $19.50 an hour on the road doing industrial automation (which coincidentally gets busier when union wages go up... hmmm...), and realizing that the people bagging my groveries make $24 and are demanding more.

there's a BIG reason BC is heading for a gigantic fall economically, canfor et al are really barely operating in many sectors bacuse of the high price of the goods.

a lot of that beetle-kill was already too dry for process last april.

good luck bc...

BC is an bit of an exception in that they're too union happy which defeats the purpose all over. For example, my brother has atrocious working conditions because the mill is the largest employer in town and can get away with it... You don't like working with an untrained guy who might end up cutting your fingers off? That's too bad. No standards at all.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Blah. we don't live in communist 1940s Poland. Unions suck!

You are probably thinking of 1980s Solidarity. Your last sentence is correct however.

[rubecube]

BC is an bit

The grammar queen missed one. ;)

I used to work for Telus and that union was garbage. Maybe that left a bad taste in my mouth but I really don't like the fact that I have no say on my wages being deducted.

[FireFly]

The grammar queen missed one. ;)

I used to work for Telus and that union was garbage. Maybe that left a bad taste in my mouth but I really don't like the fact that I have no say on my wages being deducted.

That was a typo, brain thinking faster than my fingers.

[rubecube]

That was a typo, brain thinking faster than my fingers.

Figured as much.

[Looger]

BC is an bit of an exception in that they're too union happy which defeats the purpose all over. For example, my brother has atrocious working conditions because the mill is the largest employer in town and can get away with it... You don't like working with an untrained guy who might end up cutting your fingers off? That's too bad. No standards at all.
BC isn't an exception to anything - they're proof that blind support for unions regardless of the issue is a one-way trip to a dead economy.

the same you could say the other way i suppose - i just find it interesting that there are so many people who support the unions IN ALL CASES, which ultimately will put them out of work because unconsidered in the rhetoric and the representation many times is a sound business model.

i hear all the time tirades against jimmy pattison (who i'm no major fan of by the way), saying 'oh he bought a huge boat and he laid of X number of workers' and people everywhere parrot it. meanwhile they forget that without his investment many more employees would be out of work.

the dirty secret these morons glaze over is that as long as there's richer people and poorer people, you've got to have a business climate that encourages those with money to invest in business. you're never going to hurt the rich by making business unprofitable, they'll just keep their money in banks, real estate, etc. and do nothing but live off the interest and dividends, meanwhile none of us peons are working because it's not worth his investment.

every time that corporate taxes go up or extra costs or higher labour or whatever come in the unwashed masses cheer and cheer, because they're 'taking a round out of jimmy'.

keep laughing. all the way to the welfare registration line.

[flamingchina]

I was working for a company that Telus took over back during the whole dot com thing, and we all absolutely hated working with the union employees.
Same thing when I started working for the CHR. (although in that place, even the non-union employees are problems)
The whole, get enough people to sign cards and you're unionized thing kinda bugs me, as it leaves a whole lot more room for pressuring people into it, as well as the not being able to get yourself out of the union (really, you still have to pay dues even if you leave, and are often then discriminated against.)

[Bertuzzied]

They always seem to promote laziness to me.

Bingo.
I work in a union. I guess thats why I don't care if I'm caught on CP 6 hours a day. Just maintaining the status quo around here.

[FireFly]

BC isn't an exception to anything - they're proof that blind support for unions regardless of the issue is a one-way trip to a dead economy.

the same you could say the other way i suppose - i just find it interesting that there are so many people who support the unions IN ALL CASES, which ultimately will put them out of work because unconsidered in the rhetoric and the representation many times is a sound business model.

i hear all the time tirades against jimmy pattison (who i'm no major fan of by the way), saying 'oh he bought a huge boat and he laid of X number of workers' and people everywhere parrot it. meanwhile they forget that without his investment many more employees would be out of work.

the dirty secret these morons glaze over is that as long as there's richer people and poorer people, you've got to have a business climate that encourages those with money to invest in business. you're never going to hurt the rich by making business unprofitable, they'll just keep their money in banks, real estate, etc. and do nothing but live off the interest and dividends, meanwhile none of us peons are working because it's not worth his investment.

every time that corporate taxes go up or extra costs or higher labour or whatever come in the unwashed masses cheer and cheer, because they're 'taking a round out of jimmy'.

keep laughing. all the way to the welfare registration line.

Well, that's what I'm saying. BC is an exception because residents are generally very pro-union and will support their unions in anything. I can tell you for certain that almost every Telus employee in BC walked off the job while more than half of Alberta employees were on the job. What does that say? Are people that pro-union everywhere else? Certainly not. Most people would realize there are good union causes and bad union causes, looking into the issues instead of just asking which way they should vote.

[rubecube]

I was working for a company that Telus took over back during the whole dot com thing, and we all absolutely hated working with the union employees.
Same thing when I started working for the CHR. (although in that place, even the non-union employees are problems)
The whole, get enough people to sign cards and you're unionized thing kinda bugs me, as it leaves a whole lot more room for pressuring people into it, as well as the not being able to get yourself out of the union (really, you still have to pay dues even if you leave, and are often then discriminated against.)

Yep and there isn't an option to sign a card saying "No Union" in retaliation.

[Bobblehead]

When things like this (http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/31012007/3/finance-business-olymel-slaughterhouse-close-25.html) happen, Unions are bad.

Unions can be beneficial in standing up for worker issues, but in many current circumstances the unions abuse their power.

I see union dues as another level of tax - you are paying a level of elected officials to represent you.

There is a reason that in the economic analysis of unions the demand/supply curves vs the business curves of the unions never cross (although I'd need to dig into my 3rd year Labour Econ notes to remember the specifics)

[rubecube]

Well, that's what I'm saying. BC is an exception because residents are generally very pro-union and will support their unions in anything. I can tell you for certain that almost every Telus employee in BC walked off the job while more than half of Alberta employees were on the job. What does that say? Are people that pro-union everywhere else? Certainly not. Most people would realize there are good union causes and bad union causes, looking into the issues instead of just asking which way they should vote.

That and the way the Telus union was allowed to vote on the CBA proposals was ludicrous.

[Looger]

Well, that's what I'm saying. BC is an exception because residents are generally very pro-union and will support their unions in anything. I can tell you for certain that almost every Telus employee in BC walked off the job while more than half of Alberta employees were on the job. What does that say? Are people that pro-union everywhere else? Certainly not. Most people would realize there are good union causes and bad union causes, looking into the issues instead of just asking which way they should vote.
none of this 'makes bc an exception'.

there is still a supply and demand economy, the same basic issues apply.

production, costs, profit, overhead, shipping, markets, etc.

you can't say that geopolitical zone A is exempt from the issues just because they drink mroe of the union kool-aid than geopolitical zone B, it soes not wash, and that is not what i was saying.

[SeeGeeWhy]

They can serve a purpose, but are generally not applicable to the business world in North America today.

My wife read an article describing that Ford only saves 5% of their costs when they shut down a plant because of the way they set up their union... that's brutal.

I think that if they are going to be formed now-a-days, the agreement has to be well thought out and mutually benefitial to both the union and the interests of the corporation.

[FireFly]

none of this 'makes bc an exception'.

there is still a supply and demand economy, the same basic issues apply.

production, costs, profit, overhead, shipping, markets, etc.

you can't say that geopolitical zone A is exempt from the issues just because they drink mroe of the union kool-aid than geopolitical zone B, it soes not wash, and that is not what i was saying.

That's not what I'm saying either. I know what you're saying, you're talking about economic repercussions of having too many unionized companies driving up wages etc. What I am saying is that unions are needed in certain areas. Unions as a whole don't work in BC because they're used to extreme, which is why you get the issues you're talking about. Unions used properly (to ensure fair compensation and decent working conditions ONLY, not to make sure people can sit on CP all day and get paid $20/hour.) do NOT cause these issues. Has having unions hurt the economy in Alberta? No. What makes BC different?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Union members dont realize that if they are hurting the business, at the end of the day they are hurting themselves.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Unions are there for a reason....to protect the employees. The problem with most unions is that they want everyone to be equal. The reality is....they are not. My biggest problem with unions (and I am in one) is that the unproductive and lazy people get paid the same as the productive and hard working people. There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.

[Looger]

That's not what I'm saying either. I know what you're saying, you're talking about economic repercussions of having too many unionized companies driving up wages etc. What I am saying is that unions are needed in certain areas. Unions as a whole don't work in BC because they're used to extreme, which is why you get the issues you're talking about. Unions used properly (to ensure fair compensation and decent working conditions ONLY, not to make sure people can sit on CP all day and get paid $20/hour.) do NOT cause these issues. Has having unions hurt the economy in Alberta? No. What makes BC different?
if you read my first post all i really said was that blind support for unions regardless of the issue is a bad idea, i think we fundamentally agree here.

the main difference with bc is that more people support the unions come hell or high water, which produces strange offshoot effects like the liberals being voted in largely on a union-busting platform (!)...

the economy here is far more entrepeneurial, you can run a four-man oil-based service business but the investment required even to get a small logging operation going when compared to the profit is far more marginal.

lots of bc's economy depends on things like the shipping in vancouver, tourism, so environmental issues and union money are obviously going to make more of an impact.

plus there's lots of people that are lazy pot smokers and want to make $27 an hour for a brain-dead job they can doze through.

i know production workers that flirt with six figures from overtime.

EDIT: i don't blame the unions, i blame the people that give them a blank cheque.

[RougeUnderoos]

When things like this (http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/31012007/3/finance-business-olymel-slaughterhouse-close-25.html) happen, Unions are bad.



More than 97 per cent of workers voted against management's final offer Tuesday in a nailbiting vote that many feared would seal the town's fate.

Ha ha. 97%, yeah that's a real nailbiter. That's quite a story though. What a bunch of dummies. $22.48 an hour plus benefits sounds pretty good for a slaughterhouse gig. I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse? Grade 6 and your own rubber boots?

If you guys want to gripe about a union, go hang out at a Canada Post depot for a few hours. Flagrant, unhidden sleeping. Not slacking off, not reading the paper but full on REM sleeping. Sleeping in the trucks, on cardboard boxes, at the desks. And some of those posties have routes that take them 4 hours and they get paid for 8.

[Looger]

RougeUnderoos, i have only one question for you...

are they hiring???

[RougeUnderoos]

RougeUnderoos, i have only one question for you...

are they hiring???

As a matter of fact... (http://www.canadapost.ca/personal/corporate/about/jobs/current_openings-e.asp)

One guy described his postie route to me like this: "It's a part time job for 50 grand a year".

[Dodsdomd]

Bingo.
I work in a union. I guess thats why I don't care if I'm caught on CP 6 hours a day. Just maintaining the status quo around here.

Don't think Ir. Le. doesn't notice! ;)

[Calgaryborn]

It is easy to point to excesses within unionized industry. One could
assume from this thread that non-union employees all have a model
work ethic. Any business that is large will have problems with employees
because of the lack of supervision. This is especially true now with
many large companies eliminating most of their middle management as
a cost savings measure.

Someone mentioned the notion earlier in this thread that organized
unions has become like another level of government one has to deal with.
That is an apt description of many long established unions. They've
lost touch with the workers they are suppose to represent and instead
manage them as a commodity.

Having said that I do see an important future for unions. In my life time
our society has gone from a family with one income being able to but
the family home, have yearly vacations, save for retirement, ect. Today
it generally takes two incomes to accomplish the same goals. From a 40
hour work week(a bench mark established by unions in the twentieth
century) were seeing a persons work week expanding to 50 or 60 hours
in many work sectors. Shift work and split shifts are making it a lot harder to have functional families or contribute to the community. With a shrinking
work force demands on the working man/women will increase. Taxes will
logically have to increase to make up the short fall in the work force. The
favorable work conditions many non-union workers enjoy came about because of Union activity in the early part of the last century. One day soon we are going to need organized unions to step in and curb the erosion that has been occurring in the last thirty years. I'm not sure if the current established unions will be up to this task. We might see new grass roots organizations grab the ball that the established unions have dropped.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.

It's called a promotion.

[Sample00]

Was recently in WEM and was walking past the casino.
I see that the union there is on strike, I dont know which union.
but they were video taping patrons entering the casino and advising them taht they would be putting their picture on some sort of a website. cant recall which one.
isnt there something about the FOIP thing with regards to doing that kinda thing?
to add, I would think in this day and age, most employers treat their employees fairly and pay them decent wages, am I wrong?

[Rathji]

I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse?
I worked in a couple meat plants for about 10 years and unless I was getting paid that much, I highly doubt I would go back. Doesn't seem that far out of line to me since you can earn almost $20 an hour right now working at Cargill

[GreenTeaFrapp]

More than 97 per cent of workers voted against management's final offer Tuesday in a nailbiting vote that many feared would seal the town's fate.

Ha ha. 97%, yeah that's a real nailbiter. That's quite a story though. What a bunch of dummies. $22.48 an hour plus benefits sounds pretty good for a slaughterhouse gig. I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse? Grade 6 and your own rubber boots?

Would you want to work in a slaughterhouse for the rest of your life @22.48 /hr? It might not be a job requiring a lot of education, it isn't exactly the most pleasant place to work.

The company said it is considering moving operations to Red Deer, Alta.

Now I might be misreading things here but with the Alberta boom going on right now, wouldn't they have to pay a pretty penny to get people when they're competing with the oil companies for workers?

[jolinar of malkshor]

It's called a promotion.

You must not work for a union then I assume.

[Looger]

my experience with unions is that quite often they get rid of lazy or stupid workers by promotion, it is totally insane.

[RougeUnderoos]

Would you want to work in a slaughterhouse for the rest of your life @22.48 /hr? It might not be a job requiring a lot of education, it isn't exactly the most pleasant place to work.


I wouldn't want to work in a slaughterhouse under pretty much any circumstances, but that's not the point. Looks to me like $22.48 is the max they are going to get in that market. It's either that or $0.00 an hour for those slaughterhouse employees. Which is the better wage?

Pretty stupid move by the union and the employees I think. Talk about Entitlement Syndrome.

[jar_e]

I just found out that I had paid union dues off my paycheck for the past 8 months and I wasn't even part of the union.

[Dion]

I wouldn't want to work in a slaughterhouse under pretty much any circumstances, but that's not the point. Looks to me like $22.48 is the max they are going to get in that market. It's either that or $0.00 an hour for those slaughterhouse employees. Which is the better wage?

Pretty stupid move by the union and the employees I think. Talk about Entitlement Syndrome.

I tend to agree. That's the problems with unions IMO, they tell you to hold out b/c the company will give in eventually. And when a plant closes or moves members are out of a job while union reps still continue to collect a paycheck.

Here's some more stupidity.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2002/06/06/safeway020606.html

[troutman]

Rush - The Trees

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced the're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

[Stranger]

I have a friend who was a teacher. When he began teaching he was involved with all the school activities, and was what every school would want. He worked hard, got along well with the students, coached after school and was involved in the small town. When the year was up the school board had to get rid of one teacher on the staff because of a drop in students for the next year, and he was the one to go. He said that because of being the least experienced on the staff he was chosen. It kind of upset him a bit because he said he was by far the most involved on the staff. Alot of the other teachers just put in their time everyday. They had no ambition at all. They were just working toward their pension. He just chalked it up to being the low guy on the teachers union totem pole.

My friend taught at 2 or 3 schools before he finally said screw it and quit teaching. He got tired of bouncing from school to school looking for work while some of the older disinterested teachers got to stay.

Now I know that this probably happens in non union jobs too, but if I'm looking to employ someone and I can find a young go getter, who is eager to work and contributes extra to the company, I'll choose him to replace the guy who mails it in everyday and could care less.

I don't know. Unions have their place I guess but they seem to be out dated abit. In a competitive market like Alberta they almost seem un-needed, when workers are at such a premium.

[4X4]

I remember working at co-op back in the day. Because of the union rules, it was nearly impossible to fire slacker employees. Raises were based on hours "worked" rather than good work. People with seniority were first in line for promotions...
I really liked the job (gas bar) and did it all thru high school, but then I got promoted to supervisor and the lack of available disciplinary action caused me to quit.
I'll never forget one girl that I worked with. The absolute queen of slackers. She'd claim to have carpel tunnel syndrome and therefore couldn't do anything like open a hood, wash windows (the squeegee aggrivated her wrist), definitely no filling barbecue tanks for her.
Everytime I worked with her, I basically had to let her operate the cash register for her to do any work.
God, she was so ugly too. I think of her when I think of unions.



However, I do think that trade unions are a completely different and much more useful thing. Its these little ****ant unions that take over 10 man warehouses and grocery stores that are more like parasites to the company.

[Vulcan]

Rush - The Trees

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced the're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.




You're talking about two different species, oaks and maples, last I looked, humans are the same species. Sounds like a bunch of elitest bull to me.

[rubecube]

You're talking about two different species, oaks and maples, last I looked, humans are the same species. Sounds like a bunch of elitest bull to me.

Really? I thought they both fell under the plant species.

[Vulcan]

Really? I thought they both fell under the plant species.

I'm no biologist but plants are a kingdom.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=species.&gwp=16

[rubecube]

I'm no biologist but plants are a kingdom.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=species.&gwp=16

Touche. I think the point still stands.

[Vulcan]

Touche. I think the point still stands.

What point. Get back to work.

[rubecube]

What point. Get back to work.

The point of the song.

[Bertuzzied]

Don't think Ir. Le. doesn't notice! ;)
Can she turn on a computer? hehe

[Vulcan]

The point of the song.

Uh, I get it now, the rich are a different species and naturaly bigger and better, kind of like the 'divine right of kings' .

[rubecube]

Uh, I get it now, the rich are a different species and naturaly bigger and better, kind of like the 'divine right of kings' .

Clearly you don't get it.

[Looger]

i took the song to mean that the oaks were the ambitious, and the others the lazy.

[Vulcan]

i took the song to mean that the oaks were the ambitious, and the others the lazy.

Comparing apples and oranges, which in my world, doesn't apply to humans.

[rubecube]

Comparing apples and oranges, which in my world, doesn't apply to humans.

Or Retrievers to Labs?

[Vulcan]

Or Retrievers to Labs?

That's a better comparison, same species but you know a lab is a retriever. Why do I bother.

[rubecube]

That's a better comparison, same species but you know a lab is a retriever. Why do I bother.

LOL. Yeah, I was going to say Labs and Terriers.

[Flames in 07]

The funny thing about unions is that in their absense, employees would have new ones ripped into them, and we could all live through the industrial revolution again, on the other hand they are generally self serving and detract from overall objectives and performance.

I'd look around, Unions tend to fester us vs. them mentality, people can get lazy and selfish and more political.

[Vulcan]

LOL. Yeah, I was going to say Labs and Terriers.

Well, 'everybody knows' that terriers are better.

[rubecube]

Well, 'everybody knows' that terriers are better.

Now we're at odds more than I thought.

EDIT: Actually I'm wrong again. It should be like comparing Retrievers to Terriers.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

You must not work for a union then I assume.

I've worked in a union in the past and my wife is currently in a union.

[fredr123]

Unions are there for a reason....to protect the employees. The problem with most unions is that they want everyone to be equal. The reality is....they are not. My biggest problem with unions (and I am in one) is that the unproductive and lazy people get paid the same as the productive and hard working people. There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.:eek: Don't let your coworkers read this...

Wait a sec... are you posting from work right now? Are you in the unproductive lazy category or the productive and hard working category?

[Devils'Advocate]

I'm ambivelant about unions. I do belong to a union, and I know that if I didn't have a good union I wouldn't have the pay and benefits that I have now. On the other hand, I've had so many run-ins with my own union that they **** me off.

I work in systems for the federal government. Until 2003 I was a programmer and ever since I've been supervising programmers. And I can't get rid of the slackers. I've had this guy that reads the newspaper all day. I had another guy that would disappear for hours at a time. I had another guy that played games on his computer all day. I give these guys lousy performance appraisals.. one guy threw it back in my face and said "Watcha gonna do? Fire me? Ha!" And it's true... the union will go to the wall to protect the slacker a-holes, but won't lift a finger to help me get the work done. I had one ass-wipe that purposefully broke our security regulations and I had the proof. Yet the director said that it would take a full year of my time in front of tribunals, of paperwork, of testimony in front of lawyers to get rid of this guy, so it just wasn't cost effective. So yes, unions **** me off. Yet I would never leave this job BECAUSE of my union.

My mother worked for MT&T (now Aliant Telecom) for 18 years. Two years from a partial pension, they laid her off. They laid off everyone that was close to getting their pension and kept the young low-paid people. Everyone knew that the company was no longer making a profit, so cuts were coming - but they just gutted the non-union workers with massive layoffs while on the other hand the union workers they reduced through attrition.

I've seen far too many good people work very, very hard just get slapped down. Without a union to back you up, employers have almost carte blanche. I once worked in a non-unionized private sector job where the most competent project leader was fired "for not being a team player" because she wouldn't follow managements demand to force one of her programmers to work extra hours when she knew this programmer had a very ill wife that needed taking care of. I've witnessed my fair share of the good guy finishing last because they had nobody backing them up against the whims of the powerful execs.


-=-=-=-=-

All that to say that I think unions are still necessary because employers still abuse their power to treat good people badly. I just think that unions are still stuck in the 1920s and think of the employer as the enemy and will do anything in their power to cause the company to be more inefficient. I find myself butting heads more with the union more than I do upper management. And it just shouldn't be that way. But I don't know how to fix it.

[maverickeastwood]

I've worked for both union and non union oerations and I have to say that non union has treated their people the best. The unionized operations, though, were larger than the non union operations. BC is a different climate than it is here though. In AB, there is a short supply of skilled labor and a lot of companies do what they can to retain them. And if you get mad enough, you quit and find something else.

The only thing that a union can do for you is help you and your fellow co workers maintain some level of job security. I've seen many union jobs pay less than non union. That seniority list is also a very lousy thing to contend with when you first start in a union. In BC for example, some forestry operations have 45-50 yr old trades apprentices due to this list. I realize this is AB and things may be a bit different here, economic wise, but union rules are union rules and they suck

[mykalberta]

Unions are usefull in some professions, required by some, and despised by many.

NHL Players Union - Sorry, no workforce deserves 50% of REVENUES, your argument is garbage

Nurses/Doctor/Teachers etc Union - required to keep the government in step, problem is a few (NURSES) have very militant unions and the number 1 reason why we need public funded private medical facilities.

Airline Unions (not pilots) - Your job can easily be replaced by someone who has graduated grade 12, some dont even need high school diploma - I refuse to apologize for not believing that people who throw bags, deserve anything more than 35K/year.

Airline Unions (pilots) - While the popular term for pilots is to say its so costly to become a pilot and takes so long. Not sure about Canada, but in the US, most of the higher end experienced pilots are former military, no cost - I would say you are worth what you are likely getting paid, I am sorry thought, you dont deserve what top airline managers make.

MYK

[jolinar of malkshor]

I've worked in a union in the past and my wife is currently in a union.

Well....not sure how it works in private organizations...but in the government.....past work means nothing.....a compatition is posted and workers apply. The workers go to interviews and depending on how they do in the interview determines if they get the promotion.....in almost all cases, it is not based on past work performance as the union will not have it. All workers must be treated equal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I work in systems for the federal government. Until 2003 I was a programmer and ever since I've been supervising programmers. And I can't get rid of the slackers. I've had this guy that reads the newspaper all day. I had another guy that would disappear for hours at a time. I had another guy that played games on his computer all day. I give these guys lousy performance appraisals.. one guy threw it back in my face and said "Watcha gonna do? Fire me? Ha!" And it's true... the union will go to the wall to protect the slacker a-holes, but won't lift a finger to help me get the work done. I had one ass-wipe that purposefully broke our security regulations and I had the proof. Yet the director said that it would take a full year of my time in front of tribunals, of paperwork, of testimony in front of lawyers to get rid of this guy, so it just wasn't cost effective. So yes, unions **** me off. Yet I would never leave this job BECAUSE of my union.


You do work for the government :eek:

[bluejays]

My dad's an absolute union supporter and it did him a ton when he was wrongfully dismissed. Myself, when I lost my job a few years back, the damn union didn't do a thing about it and actually convinced me to under an emotional state to resign. Because of that, I lost money, and I couldn't be represented to get help to get my job back. What do you expect when you're dealing with Teamsters? Such a corrupt organization from A-Z.

Unions are good when they don't run the place, but are there when people need them...it's that simple. Aside from that, they're a pain in the ass from a management standpoint, and money gougers from employees points-of-views.

[Vulcan]

-=-=-=-=-

All that to say that I think unions are still necessary because employers still abuse their power to treat good people badly. I just think that unions are still stuck in the 1920s and think of the employer as the enemy and will do anything in their power to cause the company to be more inefficient. I find myself butting heads more with the union more than I do upper management. And it just shouldn't be that way. But I don't know how to fix it.

You've got some good thoughts, maybe get involved in the union and try for some change.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Well....not sure how it works in private organizations...but in the government.....past work means nothing.....a compatition is posted and workers apply. The workers go to interviews and depending on how they do in the interview determines if they get the promotion.....in almost all cases, it is not based on past work performance as the union will not have it. All workers must be treated equal.

There are subjective criteria for these competitions though. And they can ask for a letter of recommendation.

The big benefit for getting a good reputation in the government is acting positions. Since the competitions can take so long, you can get put into an acting position for a long time. And then you've got experience at that level which will factor into the competitions.

[Looger]

You've got some good thoughts, maybe get involved in the union and try for some change.
here it is, maybe the big #1 fundamental problem with unions.

i've known many union workers to not get involved with the union at all (except MAYBE briefly during their elections), and then they wonder when something bad happens, 'where's my union???'

unions require participation by the workers, that is what makes them a union.

these days the union leaders are mad with power because the workers are generally, not involved at all.

the elections are much like the ones in our political systems - rigged isn't the correct term but people are presented with limited choices and their decisions dependent upon skewed perspectives.

what a sick joke.

[Looger]

<snip>What do you expect when you're dealing with Teamsters? Such a corrupt organization from A-Z.<snip>

my mom worked for an outfit where she could choose to join the teamsters or not, as office staff.

the rep would always bug her aboot it when he dropped in, in a mostly good-natured way i suppose.

she eventually tired of this and told him that as soon as they returned her father's pension money that they stole she'd consider it.

he turned white and left, never to enter her office again.

[jolinar of malkshor]

There are subjective criteria for these competitions though. And they can ask for a letter of recommendation.

The big benefit for getting a good reputation in the government is acting positions. Since the competitions can take so long, you can get put into an acting position for a long time. And then you've got experience at that level which will factor into the competitions.

I know how it works.....and it is not as easy as you think it is. I have seen many times where people have been in acting positions only to not get the job because they did not do well in the competition. Many times.

[Devils'Advocate]

Actually, past work now means everything in most federal government competitions. The interview questions have been overhauled. Where there used to be "How WOULD you handle situation X" it's been changed to "How DID you handle situation X". And they will call around to see if you told the truth about the situation. At my department, CS-4 (Computing Scientists level 4) competitions are now all based on track record. And every competition I have ever competed in or helped run has had reference checks. Now, did it help me that I am good at interviews? Absolutely. But that got me ahead in private industry as well.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Actually, past work now means everything in most federal government competitions. The interview questions have been overhauled. Where there used to be "How WOULD you handle situation X" it's been changed to "How DID you handle situation X". And they will call around to see if you told the truth about the situation. At my department, CS-4 (Computing Scientists level 4) competitions are now all based on track record. And every competition I have ever competed in or helped run has had reference checks. Now, did it help me that I am good at interviews? Absolutely. But that got me ahead in private industry as well.

Behavioural descriptive questions mean jack ****. You could have been the minister of your department but if one has a difficult time verbally communicating these facts in the interview.....it is all for nothing. That is the point....instead of looking at actual work history....such as a resume or previous performance reviews....it ALL depends on the answers you give in the interview and how well your previous supervisors can connect the two.

[Devils'Advocate]

You do work for the government :eek:

You would be surprised how few of these slackers I come across. I know 1 in 10 is still way, way too high... if this was in a non-unionized shop the lazy SOBs would be out on the street ASAP. The problem is that if you have 1 guy who isn't pulling his weight and have 9 others trying to make up for the slacker, everyone else starts asking why they are bustin' their ass while this guy plays Bejewelled. It just takes one bad apple.

But I do remember once when I was in private industry where this 50 year old guy was subtly coming on to a 22 year old just out of university. The advances were obviously not welcomed and the girl came to me. I was in no position with this company to hire/fire people, but I was high enough up to make recommendations. First, the guy wasn't doing the work assigned to him, but rather was hanging around the girls office trying to "help" her with her work. Secondly, after repeated warnings, he was still harassing her. Lastly, the girls productivity was diminished because of this letch bothering her all the time. So I went to management and said that I had never seen a better case of a guy deserving to be fired. Management told me that they needed this guy. To maintain their contract with the client they needed to ensure that my team had at least 35 years of combined experience in this particular piece of software that we were using; without his 7 years we'd be down to 28. Management found a novel solution. They fired the girl for diminished productivity, lost her 0 years of experience and kept the guy with 7 years.

It was sh*t like that that made me run back to working for the government. Come to think of it, that's probably the ONLY thing that would get you fired in the government. But I would prefer to deal with the 1 in 10 slackers rather than seeing good people fired for no good reason.

[Devils'Advocate]

Behavioural descriptive questions mean jack ****. You could have been the minister of your department but if one has a difficult time verbally communicating these facts in the interview.....it is all for nothing. That is the point....instead of looking at actual work history....such as a resume or previous performance reviews....it ALL depends on the answers you give in the interview and how well your previous supervisors can connect the two.

It always depends on your supervisors ability - unionized or non-unionized, public or private sector. I had a job opportunity blown because a former supervisor had forgotten most details of the work I had done when the company I applied to called for a reference check.

I do agree that past performance reviews SHOULD be taken into consideration in competitions. I often feel that I'm just wasting my time filling them out; the good employees know who they are and the jackoffs know who they are as well. Nobody will see them.

You may say that jobs shouldn't be decided on the basis of interview skills, and I'd agree with you; but they make or break people in all sectors.

[jolinar of malkshor]

You would be surprised how few of these slackers I come across. I know 1 in 10 is still way, way too high... if this was in a non-unionized shop the lazy SOBs would be out on the street ASAP. The problem is that if you have 1 guy who isn't pulling his weight and have 9 others trying to make up for the slacker, everyone else starts asking why they are bustin' their ass while this guy plays Bejewelled. It just takes one bad apple.

But I do remember once when I was in private industry where this 50 year old guy was subtly coming on to a 22 year old just out of university. The advances were obviously not welcomed and the girl came to me. I was in no position with this company to hire/fire people, but I was high enough up to make recommendations. First, the guy wasn't doing the work assigned to him, but rather was hanging around the girls office trying to "help" her with her work. Secondly, after repeated warnings, he was still harassing her. Lastly, the girls productivity was diminished because of this letch bothering her all the time. So I went to management and said that I had never seen a better case of a guy deserving to be fired. Management told me that they needed this guy. To maintain their contract with the client they needed to ensure that my team had at least 35 years of combined experience in this particular piece of software that we were using; without his 7 years we'd be down to 28. Management found a novel solution. They fired the girl for diminished productivity, lost her 0 years of experience and kept the guy with 7 years.

It was sh*t like that that made me run back to working for the government. Come to think of it, that's probably the ONLY thing that would get you fired in the government. But I would prefer to deal with the 1 in 10 slackers rather than seeing good people fired for no good reason.

That is sick...

I have been working for the government for about 7 years now....and I have to say that my experience has been there is a higher rate than 10% of slackers....closer to 25-30%. And it is absolutly sick. The problem is that the old timers are on cruise control....waiting for retirement.....and then when we get new staff.....some tend to pick up the habits of these slack asses.

Now I have worked many different jobs.....and there are slackers in union and non-union organizations alike....but in my profession....we cannot afford to have ANY slackers let alone 25%.

[I_H8_Crawford]

I personally am in the AGAINST unions - especially in the "white collar" areas - seriously, why do telemarketers in Telus need a union??

I hated that union - I was in sales, and hit my annual quota in 3 months - but because everyone is equal, I got nothing more for selling more, so I was able to slack off the remainder of the time I was there - I hated it.

Another thing that I hated was when I was in grade 12, the teachers union went on that ######ed "Work to Rule" campaign - I lost my senior football season because of it, and one teacher who went out of her way to ensure we still had things like school newspaper, yearbook, and debate (yes I was a geek, but it helped that some HOT girls did those things too!) and she was ostracized by her fellow co-workers because she was just helping out students.

Unions can go *bleep* themselves.

[bluejays]

my mom worked for an outfit where she could choose to join the teamsters or not, as office staff.

the rep would always bug her aboot it when he dropped in, in a mostly good-natured way i suppose.

she eventually tired of this and told him that as soon as they returned her father's pension money that they stole she'd consider it.

he turned white and left, never to enter her office again.


They really are a bunch of bums. Take your money to make a CBA, and nowhere to be found after that when you really need them. Glad your mom told that one off, but that's 1 of 10,000. Idiots.

[redforever]

They really are a bunch of bums. Take your money to make a CBA, and nowhere to be found after that when you really need them. Glad your mom told that one off, but that's 1 of 10,000. Idiots.


My sister worked for the provincial government of Saskatchewan, she was the secretary for the Speaker of the House. The union was always after her to join up, she never did. When the next election was held, the ruling party lost and thus, the person she worked for was no longer the Speaker of the House. With any such scenario, all kinds of changes take place. If my sister had joined the union, she would have been let go because she never had as much seniority as others. So joining the union would have been a very bad move on her behalf.

[maverickeastwood]

Unions like to keep secrets from their members. The IWA, now steelworkers, wouldn't allow my father to add prior years of service in the forest industry because of a vesting deadline that he was never told about. He retired after 23 years of service, but because he broke service for 6 years and never applied for past service (never knew about it) he lost 20 prior service years and therefore got screwed on the pension. Thank you, union...always looking out for the people.

[maverickeastwood]

he was looking at 43 years of pension

[dipsydoodle]

If you take the so called bastion of Capitalism the U.S. of A. The best years for the average worker, family etc. was from cira. 1955-1980. This is when the unions were the strongest. Funny how that worked. Unions have good and bad qualities, as do capitalism, and democracy, but the good out weighs the bad for the little guy, and I mean the hard working little guy. I can understand the wealthy not wanting them, but you would have to be a brain washed worker, and the washing was done, not to want one. :whistle:

[Looger]

if unions take credit for all the gains made, then they take credit for breaking truckers' kneecaps who complained aboot theft through unions, they take credit for the large amount of organized crime which owes its existence to them, for the hateful incitements to ugly behaviour, etc.

unions were for a time a vehicle by which invoilved workers affected change, and like all things the power inherent in the situation corrupted the purpose and now we have bloated organizations that will destroy the ability for a company to make money and thereby remove ALL the jobs AND the pay for a given job - a great example is the projectionist union in BC - 38 bucks an hour for what used to be an involved job, now replaced by pimply kids making 9. bravo.

if the people were involved unions would be a great idea, sadly workers by and large aren't involved and thus a super-powerful elitist status has crept in by which the leadership can lie, cheat, and steal so long as they are screwing the company.

every time a salary demand is made that steps out of the bounds of a profitable enterprise, those rich fat cat owners are not the losers - when the doors close it is the workers that pay, while the owners simply put money in real estate etc. where they can actually make money.

let business be profitable or it will not exist at all - that is what has been lost since the rise in power of unions.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Oh man, I am NOT even touching this thread with a 50 foot pole.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Oh man, I am NOT even touching this thread with a 50 foot pole.

Why even post then?

[I-Hate-Hulse]

If you take the so called bastion of Capitalism the U.S. of A. The best years for the average worker, family etc. was from cira. 1955-1980. This is when the unions were the strongest. Funny how that worked. Unions have good and bad qualities, as do capitalism, and democracy, but the good out weighs the bad for the little guy, and I mean the hard working little guy. I can understand the wealthy not wanting them, but you would have to be a brain washed worker, and the washing was done, not to want one. :whistle:


Or.... is it more the fact that the US finally slid into a trade deficit in 1976, and the "average" worker lost out to the increasing globalization of many industries.... autos, textiles, and manufacturing. Factors that even unions couldn't sway, and probably made worse given they would have fought workforce and wage cuts.

I believe unions are a great thing when its matters of physical safety. Kill floors, coal mines - I think it's a worthwhile endeavour. Unfortunately on monetary issues, most unions solely exist to defend their own interests, without taking into consideration that their own interest is heavily dependant on the fortunes of the company. Kill the company, kill your own jobs. It's a simple concept that eludes most unions.

[FlamesAddiction]

I have mixed feelings about unions.

I was a member of AUPE and CUPE, and both times I paid the dues but never once benefited. I was also making less in my job than people in the private sector made doing similar work.

Now that I work in the private sector, the amount I get paid depends on my utilization. I get regular reviews, and my salary increases by the guaranteed inflation rate, plus an amount based on my productivity. I can make way more money doing the same kind of work. Granted, I am MUCH busier now... but at this point in my life, I welcome it.

The thing is, I work for a large corporation that is willing to give benefits and pay fairly. Many, (many) people do not. For example, some companies pay terrible and treat their employees unfairly... in those cases, I fully support unions.

[Displaced Flames fan]

It goes both ways.

In my previous job, I had oustanding performance and low seniority. Got laid off...many, many pot smoking lazy ass 50 year olds kept their jobs thanks to union seniority.

In my current job I have outstanding performance and no danger of being laid off. However, the union protects the lazy workers and their work gets transferred on to the high performers.

It sucks either way.

If unions were abolished it would be just as bad.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Why even post then?

I am not even touching this reply with a 50 foot pole.

:D