Underpaid careers

[jar_e]

Since it's 503 am on a Monday morning and I've worked all night, I thought I would make this topic and see where it gets to by the time I wake up at noon!

I'm curious on what people see as underpaid jobs/careers. At my current workplace, they're in the middle of negotiating a new contract which always brings up the infamous question on how much somebody should get paid (or not get paid) for doing their job. If your not aware, I do work in the emergency services field so I'm sure this will be a tad biased, but if any of you are aware of how little street crews (medics, cops, firefighters) are paid, I'm sure you'll be able to relate.

So, that brings the question...what jobs do you think are underpaid? Which jobs are overpaid? I'm sure everyone here feels they're underpaid in some sort of fashion, but what justifies a pay increase?

I'm curious...and...it's 5 am:D

[jam26]

Cops are definitely underpaid. Also, most people who work at the major banks are grossly underpaid as well. My g/f is a personal banking officer who brings in millions of dollars in mortgages and loans and gets paid very little to do so. A lot of bank jobs are like that.

[Frank the Tank]

I'll have to agree with bank employees as well, seeing as my wife works for one of the big ones. She is getting fairly high up and gets paid jack to handle multiple millionn dollar accounts. I make more than her, and I design beer cartons.

Overpaid. Pro athlete. All of them.

Also, I think that most doctors are underpaid. For what they do, the education required to get there and the pressures put on them, its insane.

[MJK]

Teachers are underpaid IMO considering the amount of work they have to do on their spare time. The work involved outside of school is unreal.

[Frank the Tank]

Teachers are underpaid IMO considering the amount of work they have to do on their spare time. The work involved outside of school is unreal.

12 weeks off a year and one of the sweetest pension plans on god's green earth? Plus they get to go on strike every four years. Bunch of damn slackers if you ask me! (My brother is a teacher by the way:D )

[MJK]

12 weeks off a year and one of the sweetest pension plans on god's green earth? Plus they get to go on strike every four years. Bunch of damn slackers if you ask me! (My brother is a teacher by the way:D )

Well the pension plan sucks here and those weeks off are needed after teaching 8-3 each day, going home and correcting crap all night long. makes for some long days and it is only one of a handful of jobs where you have to take work home with you on a constant basis.

[Looger]

SOME engineers.

i know electrical engineers that are expected to work 60-70 hours a week and get paid for 40.

more than one i know has looked seriously at career change, due to the stress and low pay.

[TimSJ]

I may be biased but i would say that car salesmen are underpaid. Most of us don't get a salary at all.. I don't sell anything this week i don't get paid but i still have to be working 10-12 hours a day.

besides people hate us..

[transplant99]

For sure EMT's are underpaid...such a vital job and so thankless as well as non-rewarding monetarily.

[Log]

I would say a Vet. They go to school as long as a doctor does, Vet school is probably harder to get into than Med school, yet they make a fraction of what a doctor does. The only way a Vet cashes in is if they own their own clinic.

[redforever]

12 weeks off a year and one of the sweetest pension plans on god's green earth? Plus they get to go on strike every four years. Bunch of damn slackers if you ask me! (My brother is a teacher by the way:D )

First of all, get your facts straight. Teachers might have this much time away from the place that they work, BUT, they are not paid for the summer months that they are off.

Christmas and Easter holidays are covered by their contract, the summer months of July and August are not. And now adays, many businesses, outside of retail etc, have almost as much time off over Christmas and Easter as teachers do.

Teachers do however have their remuneration averaged and paid over 12 months, but they are not actually paid for those 2 months. In other words, their 10 month salary is divided by 12 months so that they receive a balanced income over the year.

[redforever]

How about nurses? Surprised no one has mentioned them.

[MacDougalbry]

First of all, get your facts straight. Teachers might have this much time away from the place that they work, BUT, they are not paid for the summer months that they are off.

Christmas and Easter holidays are covered by their contract, the summer months of July and August are not. And now adays, many businesses, outside of retail etc, have almost as much time off over Christmas and Easter as teachers do.

Teachers do however have their remuneration averaged and paid over 12 months, but they are not actually paid for those 2 months. In other words, their 10 month salary is divided by 12 months so that they receive a balanced income over the year.

Yes, but if we are comparing annual salary to annual salary, it is irrelevant whether there are paycheques in the summer or not.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

How about nurses? Surprised no one has mentioned them.

are they underpaid? I have 3 friends who are nurses, and they don't seem underpaid to me.

They do work a ton of hours, but them seem to be making a lot.

[metallicat]

Military. Just based on what I think I know, I feel many starting positions in the military should be getting paid more money.

Obviously police, fire, and EMT as well. Police careers can pay quite well, but that's only after you either put many years behind you, or if you work 24/7 with a ton of optional OT. In a career so desperate for people right now, I think a patrol officer starting his career should be looking at 60,000+ his first year, before OT and court time.

[MacDougalbry]

How about nurses? Surprised no one has mentioned them.

The pay isn't bad, it's the working conditions that suck. My wife works this complicated 13 week schedule that is impossible to keep track of. I'm never sure if she is working tomorrow or not. She works every second weekend and some 3-11PM shifts as well. We have small kids, so this sort of schedule is hard on family life. She works a "0.7" position, which is 70% of a full time shift, but not by choice... It is hard to get a full time shift, mostly the Health Region creates these stupid part time positions and then tries to manage the workload by calling people at 6AM for extra shifts (which they don't have to pay overtime because you aren't working full time to begin with).

On the plus side, most patients are quite appreciative of the Nurse's work...

[metallicat]

Do you mean that is what they get or what you think they should get? Its not clear.I think they should start at 60,000 before court and OT. What they do start at is closer to 40,000. Calgary being a bit higher than Edmonton.

[Burninator]

I am also going to go with teachers. My mom is a teacher so I see the extra time put in that most people do not. Kids are only in class from 8-3 or close to, but teachers are there before and after that. They have to go in on their days off to get ready for their kids at the end of the major breaks. Parent teacher interviews are another long day, etc. I recall a conversation my mom had with a parent. They were talking about days off and the parent said "Well atleast you got the PD day on friday off." My mom says, "A PD day is a professional develpment day, we don't have the day off." People think teachers have more time off than they really do. Plus they are the ones educating our future, you would think that'd be important.

[Sylvanfan]

Well most people think they're underpaid for the job they do. They can usually spin it really nicely to really make it stand out. From my experience it's people with full university degree's who seem to be most inclined to feel they're underpaid. Went to school for 4-7 years and often don't make much more than people who went to school for 1 or 2. Than you have people who went for 1 or 2 but work in dangerous or really crappy working conditions who'll argue that they don't get to work indoors and for set hours.

[Bertuzzied]

CFL football players. Some of them are playing pro ball for $40k to $50k a year. That is crazy. Iginla makes more more than the Stampeders combined. Even Tanguay makes more than the whole team.

After working for 3 different banks, people in the branches are definately underpaid. I worked at TD Waterhouse for 2 years and was making more than people working at the branches who were there over 15 -20 years.

Not to mention working in a bank is about the worst job in the world. I would rather wash dishes before I ever did that again.

[Bent Wookie]

For those that are interested:

http://www.calgarypolice.ca/recruiting/html/salary_benefits.htm

$47 grand to start. In an age when the city can't even keep up to atrition, it's no wonder people aren't applying in droves.

[Frank the Tank]

First of all, get your facts straight. Teachers might have this much time away from the place that they work, BUT, they are not paid for the summer months that they are off.

Christmas and Easter holidays are covered by their contract, the summer months of July and August are not. And now adays, many businesses, outside of retail etc, have almost as much time off over Christmas and Easter as teachers do.

Teachers do however have their remuneration averaged and paid over 12 months, but they are not actually paid for those 2 months. In other words, their 10 month salary is divided by 12 months so that they receive a balanced income over the year.

Yes they do get paid for the summer. They get paid every two weeks, all year, like everyone else. But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

[Bobblehead]

12 weeks off a year and one of the sweetest pension plans on god's green earth? Plus they get to go on strike every four years. Bunch of damn slackers if you ask me! (My brother is a teacher by the way:D )

Well the pension plan sucks here and those weeks off are needed after teaching 8-3 each day, going home and correcting crap all night long. makes for some long days and it is only one of a handful of jobs where you have to take work home with you on a constant basis.

Ontario teachers have a kick-ass pensions. Their pension plan holds $96 Billion in assets including Cadillac-Fairview. Ontario Teachers make as much (or more) after they retire than while teaching.

[Buff]

Nurses are overpaid.

Physical Therapists are underpaid.

At least in the Chinook Health region. My wife had seven years of school to become a Physical Therapist and her max pay is $10,000 less per year than her sister, an LPN, who only had 2 years of schooling. RNs will make even more than an LPN and the LPNs are the nurses who do all the work. My sister-in-law agrees with me that she is overpaid but she needs all she gets so she won't complain about it.

[MJK]

Yes they do get paid for the summer. They get paid every two weeks, all year, like everyone else. But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

Actually, although a paycheque comes in during the summer, that money has been held back every paycheque while working during the year. So teachers do not get paid for being off in the summer.

[Frank the Tank]

Actually, although a paycheque comes in during the summer, that money has been held back every paycheque while working during the year. So teachers do not get paid for being off in the summer.

But don't make it sound like they simply don't get paid in July and August. And cry me a river for all the teachers out there! They are hardly underpaid!!

[jar_e]

For those that are interested:

http://www.calgarypolice.ca/recruiting/html/salary_benefits.htm

$47 grand to start. In an age when the city can't even keep up to atrition, it's no wonder people aren't applying in droves.

To put things in perspective for other emergency workers...

EMT's (one year of schooling, plus EMR) start at $21.96 (and can work there way up to a cap of $26.70)....so for a forty two hour work week (which is average for them) their annual wage ranges from $47,000 - $59,000 gross.

Paramedics (Two years of schooling plus EMT, plus EMR) start at $23.74 (up to $30.26)...$51,000 - $67,000 annually.

Firefighters, like CPS work on a five year class...

edit: stupid formatting....here's a link (http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_395_203_0_47/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Calgary+Fire+Department/Firefighter+Recruitment/Position+Information/Firefighter+Wages%252c+Benefits+and+Pension.htm).. .first year firefighters start at a whopping $19.28 per hour and will roughly make $42,000 annually.

[Sylvanfan]

Actually, although a paycheque comes in during the summer, that money has been held back every paycheque while working during the year. So teachers do not get paid for being off in the summer.

You could come work in the OilSands in the summer than. 2 months in Fort Mac, you could probably make an extra 25k a year and fix that.

And don't tell my you don't have tonnes of Newfy buddies there who could stay with!:ph34r:

[boobaloo]

Nurses are overpaid.

Physical Therapists are underpaid.

At least in the Chinook Health region. My wife had seven years of school to become a Physical Therapist and her max pay is $10,000 less per year than her sister, an LPN, who only had 2 years of schooling. RNs will make even more than an LPN and the LPNs are the nurses who do all the work. My sister-in-law agrees with me that she is overpaid but she needs all she gets so she won't complain about it.


As a physical therapist, how many $hitty arses does she have to clean? To me, RN and LPN are the most thankless, underpaid occupations of all, particularly LPN. LPN gets to do all the crappy jobs the RN doesn't want to do, and the job is back-breaking. I think your S-I-L is just being kind to you by agreeing that she's overpaid. And I am a professional health care worker myself.

[MJK]

But don't make it sound like they simply don't get paid in July and August. And cry me a river for all the teachers out there! They are hardly underpaid!!

That's your opinion.

Teachers get paid a salary for the days they work during the year that does NOT include the summer. It is actually the choice of the teacher to have a portion of every cheque gets held back so in reality, not every teacher gets paid during the summer. Is that too hard to understand?

But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

[Frank the Tank]

That's your opinion.

Teachers get paid a salary for the days they work during the year that does NOT include the summer. It is actually the choice of the teacher to have a portion of every cheque gets held back so in reality, not every teacher gets paid during the summer. Is that too hard to understand?

But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

Haha! Whatever. Maybe its different here in Ontario. Like I said, my brother is a teacher. Both of my neighbours are teachers as well and all of them are FAR from underpaid. I'll try to control my snottiness.

Oh ya, my cousins wife is a teacher in Calgary as well. Have never heard her complain about the pay either.

[MJK]

Haha! Whatever. Maybe its different here in Ontario. Like I said, my brother is a teacher. Both of my neighbours are teachers as well and all of them are FAR from underpaid. I'll try to control my snottiness.

Oh ya, my cousins wife is a teacher in Calgary as well. Have never heard her complain about the pay either.

There are actually more provinces in Canada than Ontario, imagine that!

:rolleyes:

[Frank the Tank]

There are actually more provinces in Canada than Ontario, imagine that!

:rolleyes:

Haha! Wow. Did I kick your dog this morning by mistake? Its all just opinion. I don't feel teachers are underpaid. You do. Sorry for my firm stance.

[troutman]

Social workers, by a landslide.

[Hack&Lube]

I agree that the banks are the worst

[Mccree]

As a physical therapist, how many $hitty arses does she have to clean? To me, RN and LPN are the most thankless, underpaid occupations of all, particularly LPN. LPN gets to do all the crappy jobs the RN doesn't want to do, and the job is back-breaking. I think your S-I-L is just being kind to you by agreeing that she's overpaid. And I am a professional health care worker myself.

I agree, my wife is a RN and I would NEVER want her job.

[return to the red]

nearly half the people living in Lethbridge are underpaid.

My sister works as a teacher In Calgary and $70k a year blows my salary out of the water.

[kevman]

That's your opinion.

Teachers get paid a salary for the days they work during the year that does NOT include the summer. It is actually the choice of the teacher to have a portion of every cheque gets held back so in reality, not every teacher gets paid during the summer. Is that too hard to understand?

But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

So teachers get paid for the time they work and that's not fair??? I'm confused... In my opinion they shouldn't get paid for the summer because they are not working in the summer. Making $40,000 for 10 months of work isn't too shabby. Or if you choose to have your pay cheques distributed throughout the year making $40,000 for 10 months of work and 2 months of paid vacation isn't too shabby either...

Maybe it's just me but I feel I'm paid what society values my time at.

[redforever]

Yes, but if we are comparing annual salary to annual salary, it is irrelevant whether there are paycheques in the summer or not.


Then compare the annual salaries. Based on that, teachers are underpaid.

[Reaper]

Underpaid: Home Care workers - The provincial government hasn't changed the maximum amount of monthly funding that a person can receive for their home care costs in 17 years.

Basically, this is why I'm getting out of the home care profession and going back to school to take Piping.

[redforever]

Actually, although a paycheque comes in during the summer, that money has been held back every paycheque while working during the year. So teachers do not get paid for being off in the summer.


Exactly. You do not have to be a quantum physics scientist to understand the principle involved.

[redforever]

So teachers get paid for the time they work and that's not fair??? I'm confused... In my opinion they shouldn't get paid for the summer because they are not working in the summer. Making $40,000 for 10 months of work isn't too shabby. Or if you choose to have your pay cheques distributed throughout the year making $40,000 for 10 months of work and 2 months of paid vacation isn't too shabby either...

Maybe it's just me but I feel I'm paid what society values my time at.


This is not the point. Yes, that is what teachers are paid for, they are paid for the days that they have worked and of course that is the fair way to compensate people for working. BUT too many are under the impression that just because they get paid over the summer months, they are getting paid for time they do not work. This of course is not the case. They only get paid over the summer months if they have asked for their remuneration to be divided over 12 months instead of 10 months.

Because of the averaging of pay, many in the public think they are actually being paid in the summer months for not working. They get paid for when they work, just like anyone else does.

[RougeUnderoos]

Daycare employees are seriously underpaid. Like fast-food money, if that.

The Herald classifieds are currently offering several jobs for a live-in nanny that pay about $7.50 an hour.

Won't somebody please think of the children?

[metallicat]

I actually think teachers are underpaid. I owe teachers a debt of gratitude. It's only because of my English 30 teacher that I was able to do well on the departmental exam, and get into post secondary schooling. She was hot too. ;)

[Reaper]

Daycare employees are seriously underpaid. Like fast-food money, if that.I totally agree with this sentiment. Do you want the people responsible for the safety of your children to be paid less than someone whose only real responsibility is cooking/assembling hamburgers?

[@theCBE]

It is hard to get a full time shift, mostly the Health Region creates these stupid part time positions and then tries to manage the workload by calling people at 6AM for extra shifts (which they don't have to pay overtime because you aren't working full time to begin with).


The people who's job it is to call the nurses at 6 a.m. are by far the most underpaid ... I was one for 2 years. Our office continually had people on stress leave. We got yelled at by: nurses that didn't want to work. Managers that wanted us to get a over-worked nurse in to work within 5 minutes but refused to allow us to pay the nurses overtime to entice them to come in. More nurses because they are ****ed off we called their co-workers to come in for overtime before them. I got yelled at by a nurses husband at least once a week for calling so early in the morning or so often.. and then i'd get yelled at by his wife the next day because I didn't call her for an extra shift.

[moon]

EMT and Firefighters are at worst paid right and if anything overpaid. Must be nice to watch TV and hang out, go out on two calls that involve bringing Grandma to the hospital because she thinks she is having a heart attack and then go have a nap before going home.

Plus anyone talking about Teachers pension should also lump any government workers in there as Nurses, Firefighters and EMT's aren't exactly struggling to get through their retirement.

I understand that at times there are tough situations like in any job but I have little to no patience to hearing them whine about their jobs when you see what the day to day life is like.

[RougeUnderoos]

EMT and Firefighters are at worst paid right and if anything overpaid. Must be nice to watch TV and hang out, go out on two calls that involve bringing Grandma to the hospital because she thinks she is having a heart attack and then go have a nap before going home.



It also must be nice for those lazy firefighters to turn off the tv and run out the door to put out the fire that is burning your house down.

I don't know about Lethbridge, but the EMTs aren't sitting around picking their noses and waiting for Granny's faux-gripper in Calgary. We don't have enough of them.

[redforever]

I totally agree with this sentiment. Do you want the people responsible for the safety of your children to be paid less than someone whose only real responsibility is cooking/assembling hamburgers?

You are dead on the money. Why are our children, the care of our children and the education of our children held in such low regard?

[jar_e]

EMT and Firefighters are at worst paid right and if anything overpaid. Must be nice to watch TV and hang out, go out on two calls that involve bringing Grandma to the hospital because she thinks she is having a heart attack and then go have a nap before going home.

Plus anyone talking about Teachers pension should also lump any government workers in there as Nurses, Firefighters and EMT's aren't exactly struggling to get through their retirement.

I understand that at times there are tough situations like in any job but I have little to no patience to hearing them whine about their jobs when you see what the day to day life is like.

Calgary EMS has already had four red alerts (which means 0 ambulances for just over a million people) this month...trust me, they're not sitting around. True, there are times (and firefighters probably get the most of this) where they do sit around and may not go on a call all night. But, they don't get paid to sit there...they get paid to be available and go on a drop of a hat. And, in all honesty, I don't think you can pay people enough money to even think of going into a burning building to save a total stranger...but, as I said, I'm biased.

[jar_e]

nearly half the people living in Lethbridge are underpaid.

My sister works as a teacher In Calgary and $70k a year blows my salary out of the water.

It's not that impressive when you think of the cost of living compared between the two cities.

[Frank the Tank]

Exactly. You do not have to be a quantum physics scientist to understand the principle involved.

Well, regardless of how fair we feel a teachers salary is, you have to admit that getting 7 weeks off every summer has factored into just about every teachers decision to go down that path. Their annual salaries are usually fair, and tend to go up a decent amount every year.

[Bobblehead]

One year I lived 1/2 block away from a firestation. You have no idea how many calls these guys go out to an a regular basis.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

If I had to pick one profession to get a pay-raise...it would be licensed child-care workers no question, IMO a solid child care system is a foundation in a socially responsible innovative economy...when child care workers "are thinking Arby's [as a career upgrade]" ;) there is a major problem...

Teachers and Soldiers would be my second choice...

[Burninator]

Well, regardless of how fair we feel a teachers salary is, you have to admit that getting 7 weeks off every summer has factored into just about every teachers decision to go down that path. Their annual salaries are usually fair, and tend to go up a decent amount every year.
Teachers also put in a fair amount of extra time that most people don't realize. Teachers usually put in more than a 40 hour week inculding time on the weekend for marking or what have you. Just because your child is at home, doesn't mean the teacher is. The salaries I believe are in direct relation to how many years to have been teaching. At certain intervals you will get a raise. I think it's around 3% a year.

[Gravitykillr]

not totally a career but I think the fast food, and convenience store job market is way way underpaid, I mean $9 an hour to start and all you do for 8 hours a day is deal with whiny people who think your a moron because your working at a Macdonald or a Mac's. I used to work with a girl who was working 2 jobs 1 of them at a Mac's because she had a degree in Physics can't remember the specific field) and she couldn't get hired anywhere, so she had to work at Mac's and be a waitress. Also working for $9 + $1 to work a night shift in a conveniece store sucks, underpaid and under appreciated by the general public.

[Reaper]

You are dead on the money. Why are our children, the care of our children and the education of our children held in such low regard?Why are they held in such low regard? The reason is simple: They don't earn a profit. Only people that help other people make money are generally well compensated.

[MJK]

Teachers also put in a fair amount of extra time that most people don't realize. Teachers usually put in more than a 40 hour week inculding time on the weekend for marking or what have you. Just because your child is at home, doesn't mean the teacher is. The salaries I believe are in direct relation to how many years to have been teaching. At certain intervals you will get a raise. I think it's around 3% a year.

Exactly. Lots of people seem to be missing this point completely or they just care not to awknowledge it.

[Frank the Tank]

Exactly. Lots of people seem to be missing this point completely or they just care not to awknowledge it.

Oh please. Who here doesn't put in more than 40 hours a week? Teachers aren't the only ones.

[Burninator]

not totally a career but I think the fast food, and convenience store job market is way way underpaid, I mean $9 an hour to start and all you do for 8 hours a day is deal with whiny people who think your a moron because your working at a Macdonald or a Mac's. I used to work with a girl who was working 2 jobs 1 of them at a Mac's because she had a degree in Physics can't remember the specific field) and she couldn't get hired anywhere, so she had to work at Mac's and be a waitress. Also working for $9 + $1 to work a night shift in a conveniece store sucks, underpaid and under appreciated by the general public.

I think they are getting paid fine. In your opinion what would be a more acceptable rate?

[Burninator]

Oh please. Who here doesn't put in more than 40 hours a week? Teachers aren't the only ones.
A lot of people think teachers aren't putting in that many hours, when the opposite is true. Not sure about your job, but most jobs compensate you for putting in more hours. Either through overtime, additional pay or banked time. A teacher is expected to get all their marking or planning done in their hour a day of "free time". But most of this free time is either taken up by meetings, supervising or other mandatory things. All their additional time is off the books.

[TimSJ]

Personally i think that teachers are Fairly compensated. My wife is a teacher and she makes a decent wage and gets great benifits. but hey i would take more if she could get it.

Personally i don't get paid an hourly wage at all and i work at least 60 hours a week. If i don't produce i don't get paid.

[peter12]

A lot of people think teachers aren't putting in that many hours, when the opposite is true. Not sure about your job, but most jobs compensate you for putting in more hours. Either through overtime, additional pay or banked time. A teacher is expected to get all their marking or planning done in their hour a day of "free time". But most of this free time is either taken up by meetings, supervising or other mandatory things. All their additional time is off the books.

Bull****. Any career paid on the salary roll (see: most jobs) doesn't see a dime of overtime.

I'm a research assistant on salary who works part-time up to 40 hours a week and on weekends, I don't see a dime of extra cash.

Also for underpaid, let's say anyone in politics besides bureaucrats.

[Frank the Tank]

A lot of people think teachers aren't putting in that many hours, when the opposite is true. Not sure about your job, but most jobs compensate you for putting in more hours. Either through overtime, additional pay or banked time. A teacher is expected to get all their marking or planning done in their hour a day of "free time". But most of this free time is either taken up by meetings, supervising or other mandatory things. All their additional time is off the books.

I am compensated by being allowed to come to work the next day because I met the required deadline. Thats my compensation. Plus I have to work in July and August.:D

[Nabber]

I agree with Troutman, social workers are seriously underpaid, my girlfriend works with adults with disabilities and has a very difficult job and gets paid a very low salary. I work in real estate and I guess in some ways could be considered as being overpaid, even though some months I don't earn a paycheck.

[kevman]

This is not the point. Yes, that is what teachers are paid for, they are paid for the days that they have worked and of course that is the fair way to compensate people for working. BUT too many are under the impression that just because they get paid over the summer months, they are getting paid for time they do not work. This of course is not the case. They only get paid over the summer months if they have asked for their remuneration to be divided over 12 months instead of 10 months.

Because of the averaging of pay, many in the public think they are actually being paid in the summer months for not working. They get paid for when they work, just like anyone else does.

I understand that completely, I'm just saying that having 2 months "paid" vacation based on 12 months of pay or 2 months of unpaid vacation based on 10 months of pay is a pretty sweet deal.

I'm not going to pretend to know alot of teachers that said they make x amount and y amount but I can comment on what I can see from the outside. I know one guy that appears to be doing fairly well for himself and has 2 months off every summer and he loves it! He's young now so he uses that time to go hiking, camping, biking etc. but I'm sure that time off will be just as rewarding when you're able to share it with your kids who also have 2 months off in the summer. Another retired at 55 by living modest while supporting a family and buying a house. He spent all of his summers in the mountains and he now spends what seems like every day doing what he loves. Hardly a bad life...

Maybe it's just me but when I compare jobs I look at what I'm getting paid for how much I'm putting into it. I would easily take the job that pays $53,800 a year ($1,200 a week) to work 10 months over the job that pays $62,400 a year ($1,200 a week) to work all 12 months with your standard 2 weeks vacation. To me both jobs pay the same but one offers you a hell of a lot more time off.

Are teacher's underpaid on an hourly basis? Maybe, maybe not... but to say they're underpaid because they don't earn money in the summer when they have time off isn't right. Nothing is stopping them from getting a second job or better yet spending that time doing something they truly love.

[Go4Gold]

Why is it that they get to vote on their salaries, and no wonder it usually passes with a 59-1 vote, let the citizens vote on that. If they do a good job, then great give them a raise, if not, too bad.

Also a friend of mine works for the City of Calgary as a "Senior Town Planner" and I can't even immagine making what they do, yet that is still not enough. And the edumacation difference between them and mine is slim, just different fields.

By the way, I'm in IT and looking for a change.:bag:

[JiriHrdina]

I am compensated by being allowed to come to work the next day because I met the required deadline. Thats my compensation. Plus I have to work in July and August.:D

Yup right now I have a 50 hour work week on average and that's the lowest its been when I've been full-time in the work force. Frankly it cheeses me off when I hear teachers talk all the time about how much they work, like the rest of the working world isn't doing the same.

I haven't been paid an hour of overtime since I was 20.

[TimSJ]

"Paid Overtime"

Those must be union words. I have never heard of it.

[MacDougalbry]

In an environment where Chicken on The Run is paying its workers $15 an hour (equal to $30K a year) and guys working in Construction are pulling in over $100K with overtime, the starting salary of many of these public sector jobs might not seem all that great, but if the price of oil ever goes back in the crapper, there will be huge waiting lists again to get into these occupations. In the '90s, it was actually difficult to get into many of these occupations (nursing, teaching, police services, etc..)

[Staypuft]

I have a feeling I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy here, but Broadcasters/Journalists are underpaid as well.
If not underpaid...then at the very least it's a profession where people are paid a lot less than the general public THINKS they are...with some clear exceptions (Gerry Forbes).
You can expect to make minimum wage + $1 to $2 for your first job...and be expected to work above any beyond 40 hours a week.
Even when you "make it" you're definitely not going to be buying a ton of toys I'll tell you that.

I'm sure there's other jobs out there like this...where you're just happy to have a job, no matter what the pay is.

[Frank the Tank]

Yup right now I have a 50 hour work week on average and that's the lowest its been when I've been full-time in the work force. Frankly it cheeses me off when I hear teachers talk all the time about how much they work, like the rest of the working world isn't doing the same.

I haven't been paid an hour of overtime since I was 20.

THANK YOU! Finally!! I think teachers do a great service (the good ones) but I don't think they are underpaid. I get tired of their ellyaching, because, like you, I am "compensated" for my overtime by not getting fired.

[Sylvanfan]

Yup right now I have a 50 hour work week on average and that's the lowest its been when I've been full-time in the work force. Frankly it cheeses me off when I hear teachers talk all the time about how much they work, like the rest of the working world isn't doing the same.

I haven't been paid an hour of overtime since I was 20.

You've been ripped off! But seriously there are a lot of salaried people who get a raw deal in terms of what they're expected to do for the salary they're paid.

Back to Teachers:

As a teacher you're in class hours are about 5 hours per day for 5 days a week, for about 36 weeks a year. So that equates to 900 in class hours a year (pro-D days probably go for 8, but I'm trying to keep this simple). So if the average teacher was to put in an extra 20 hours per week during school year, and lets even give 2 weeks after school ends and 2 weeks before for preparation/final marking. So say 40 weeks of 20 hours per week would be an extra 800 hours. So 1700 hours to make a teachers salary of say $50k per year works out to 29.41 an hour + benefits. I think when a teacher is younger they have to put in more work as they're learning the job and more prep time is required. As a teacher gains experience and if they're steadily employed teaching the same subject the time requirements do likely decrease as you get better at it.

Like any job though, if you don't like it and you're underpaid. Find another one. Most people usually can't find that easier and better paying job. Or they feel too much attachment to what they invested to get the position they have. Personally I used to think government jobs looked great. Now I wouldn't want it under any circumstances. You're working for the taxpayer, and he's always mad, and the people you're working for are always on short term leashes and willing to throw you to the wolves.

[Burninator]

Well your guys jobs sound fun. I guess it depends on industry, but any extra time I do gets banked into vacation time.

[Frank the Tank]

Well your guys jobs sound fun. I guess it depends on industry, but any extra time I do gets banked into vacation time.

Thats actually what I am pushing for right now at work. With a young family, I don't even care about the extra money, I just want the time back to enjoy with the boy! I think I'm actually going to get it too! Woot!!

[skins]

Engineers are underpaid

Business majors are overpaid (they coast on all the money the engineers make for them)

Particularly in the oil industry

[Burninator]

Engineers are underpaid

Yeah average starting wage of $50,000+. :whaa:

[OilersBaby]

Nurses are overpaid.

Physical Therapists are underpaid.

At least in the Chinook Health region. My wife had seven years of school to become a Physical Therapist and her max pay is $10,000 less per year than her sister, an LPN, who only had 2 years of schooling. RNs will make even more than an LPN and the LPNs are the nurses who do all the work. My sister-in-law agrees with me that she is overpaid but she needs all she gets so she won't complain about it.

move to the US. Physical Therapists start at about 20,000 more than RNs here..there is a shortage of ANYTHING in the health field.

[OilersBaby]

OVERPAID: LAWYERS in the USA (not the prosecutors working for the government, they don't even get paid what the lawyers who work for a corporation make)..those lawyers who work for a corportion easily pull in 300,000 per year. Also, almost anyone who works for Corporate America (esp in comparison to anyone who works for Corporate Canada).

UNDERPAID: social workers who dont work in the hospital setting, teachers, college professors

[redforever]

Well, regardless of how fair we feel a teachers salary is, you have to admit that getting 7 weeks off every summer has factored into just about every teachers decision to go down that path. Their annual salaries are usually fair, and tend to go up a decent amount every year.

It is not the reason I chose to go into teaching. I chose to go into teaching because I was good at it, damned good at it!!! And I enjoyed it and I enjoy young people. Now, I chose to teach mainly at the Junior High level, some Senior High as well. Our teaching certificate enables us to teach any age child but I specialized and wanted to teach in that field and that is what I did. I also enjoy that age more so than the others, although the Grade 8 years, you know, the 14 going on 40, can be a challenge!!! I am good at listening and you need that skill if you wish to have any hope of getting through to any of the young people. And I treated my students with respect because that is the only way you earn respect from your students. As my students graduated on to High School, they continued to visit me and to this day, I still keep in touch with some of my former students.

Now, I have exactly the same number of years of university education as my spouse. However, my starting salary did not reflect that, nor did the salary I was earning reflect that when I quit teaching. They do not equate in the professional work force and they never will until the public decides to hold teachers in a higher regard. It would be the same as comparing trades people to professionals. Now, at one time, there was a huge discrepancy between trades and professionals. However, in today's hot market, it is the trades people who are being held in a higher regard. Their salary of course still does not fully reflect that but at least the gap has closed which it should have a long time ago.

Yes, teachers get an annual increase in their salary. However, it is the same throughout. Each teacher, no matter if good or bad, no matter if just starting out or if you have taught for 30 years, you all get the same annual increase. This has always been a bone of contention with me and until the teachers union is willing to allow some means to further determine the merits of teachers, that will not change. You belong to a union, you should expect wage increases like that. And that in turn is why the teaching profession will continue to stagnate and teachers will not be held in higher regard. Until the bad teachers get weeded out, those who went into the profession only for the hours, only for summers off and only for a guaranteed income and guaranteed increases, then the status quo for teachers will not change. There simply has to be a way to reward excellence no matter if in the public or private part of our society.

[Antithesis]

I teach (and enjoyed a professional development day that finished a touch early today) and I am comfortable with what I earn. I think when you work in the public sector you trade a little bit of earning potential for better job security which is a definite plus, as is my pension (which in all honesty I will pay through the nose for).

That being said, I think teachers are going to be looking for cost of living increases that will be quite sharp given the change in that measure in Calgary recently. I think the media is going to have a field day with it, but I've never really been one to care about what the media says (was it fotze who said they never get the facts straight? Either way ... I agree)

[return to the red]

overpaid - city workers, I guess I'm jealous that I don't get paid $30-40 an hour to to watch 1 guy dig a hole and chat with 4 other guys then have to take some of my 8-12 weeks of PAID holidays.

Always glad to see my tax dollars being put to good use

Underpaid - Have to agree with the social worker comment. I can't imagine the work, especially the mental aspect of it for such low pay.

[metallicat]

overpaid - city workers, I guess I'm jealous that I don't get paid $30-40 an hour to to watch 1 guy dig a hole and chat with 4 other guys then have to take some of my 8-12 weeks of PAID holidays.

Always glad to see my tax dollars being put to good use

Underpaid - Have to agree with the social worker comment. I can't imagine the work, especially the mental aspect of it for such low pay.No city worker digging holes is getting paid 30-40 on regular hours. But, the lazy city worker stereotype lives on I see.

[Antithesis]

Well, then what are those guys doing? ;)

[JimmytheT]

OVERPAID: LAWYERS in the USA (not the prosecutors working for the government, they don't even get paid what the lawyers who work for a corporation make)..those lawyers who work for a corportion easily pull in 300,000 per year. Also, almost anyone who works for Corporate America (esp in comparison to anyone who works for Corporate Canada).

UNDERPAID: social workers who dont work in the hospital setting, teachers, college professors

My wife is a social worker with Children's Services, and though she is underpaid for what she does, it is not like she is paid a beggar's salary. It is still > $50,000/year, with an earnings potential of > $70,000.

[blues22]

Okay - I've just got to put my opinion in here. I'm a teacher, too, in the US (St. Louis metro area). The salary structure is too complicated to explain, but I'm not on the base salary, and I gross about $32k a year. My salary is enough for me, but I have to agree that teachers are underpaid.

At my school, we have a 7-hour school day, and we're responsible for 15-minutes before and after school. I have 3 preps, and teach 6 classes, along with an advisory, which is basically a study hall with extra activities thrown in. We also have other responsibilities (tutoring, detention or other babysitting-type duty) and professional development which will cause us stay later every so often (and every Wednesday for an extra hour plus).

Along with the outside time (grading - argh!) already mentioned, at the non-rich schools, we have to pay for some of our supplies (markers, pens/pencils/etc, computer ink, hole-punch, stapler...). The elementary teachers get really screwed on this (I'm a high school math teacher, so I'm much better off). They make less, and they have to buy more.

Oh, and I mustn't forget the cost of extra schooling... which isn't commonly paid around here, but is necessary to continue advancing.

But really, the thing that is most annoying about teaching is some of the students and parents we have to deal with. 95% of my students can't do 2nd grade math without a calculator, so I have to beat my head against a brick wall.

That being said, I LOVE the time off. But, without it, there is no way in hell I would teach.

[RougeUnderoos]

Along with the outside time (grading - argh!) already mentioned, at the non-rich schools, we have to pay for some of our supplies (markers, pens/pencils/etc, computer ink, hole-punch, stapler...). The elementary teachers get really screwed on this (I'm a high school math teacher, so I'm much better off). They make less, and they have to buy more.



That is just brutal. For all the blathering on we do about how children are our most important resource and all the other feelgood crap, we sure don't put our money where our mouth is.

[Gravitykillr]

I think they are getting paid fine. In your opinion what would be a more acceptable rate?
Well Hypothetically lets take your job whatever that may be, and lets add the Element of at any moment someone could walk into said job and shove a gun in your face and threaten to murder you for a couple of hundred dollars? is that worth $9 an hour to you? I wouldn't think so.

[OilersBaby]

My wife is a social worker with Children's Services, and though she is underpaid for what she does, it is not like she is paid a beggar's salary. It is still > $50,000/year, with an earnings potential of > $70,000.

Well Im not familar with the educational requirements for social workers in Alberta, but in California, a Masters (MSW) is required to work..and they get paid what you stated...50-70 K to begin with. Compared to a lot of professions which do NOT require master's degrees and furthur education after a Bachelor's degree, they don't get paid enough. For example, nurses with an Associates Degree here start at about 75,000. That's 3 years of school. The MSW is at least 5 years, if not 6 years. So it doesnt seem fair!

For the record, I'm neither a nurse nor a social worker. I have a BSc in Computer Science and am halfway done with an MSc in Nutrition. I would get paid wayyyy more as a programer with only a BSc than a Dietitian with an MSc where the master's isn't even required (I only did it to switch professions and didnt want to do anohter bachelor's degree). However, I chose to do what I like.

[return to the red]

No city worker digging holes is getting paid 30-40 on regular hours. But, the lazy city worker stereotype lives on I see.

well it's hard not to with the city guys I deal with on a daily basis. There is a reason why people want to work for the city and a reason why some people hate it, ambition seems to be the focal point of that reason.

[Flames_Gimp]

Definately not Plumbers..err i mean _Technicians_:rolleyes:

[metallicat]

well it's hard not to with the city guys I deal with on a daily basis. There is a reason why people want to work for the city and a reason why some people hate it, ambition seems to be the focal point of that reason.In what capacity do you deal with city workers? I am one. I'm not saying we're all hard workers, but the slam against city workers tends to get old when everyone you know mentions it to you. :rolleyes:

[V]

Oh please. Who here doesn't put in more than 40 hours a week? Teachers aren't the only ones.

Geez, no kidding. Is there anyone out there in Calgary that has a career and works only 40 hours a week??

When I found out a teacher in Calgary can pull in 70k, and only work 9 months of the year, I couldn't believe how much they whine about being underpaid. 70k, plus tonnes of time to pick up a second job in the summer for even more money. You poor suckers. I can't imagine how you get by.

[MJK]

Geez, no kidding. Is there anyone out there in Calgary that has a career and works only 40 hours a week??

When I found out a teacher in Calgary can pull in 70k, and only work 9 months of the year, I couldn't believe how much they whine about being underpaid. 70k, plus tonnes of time to pick up a second job in the summer for even more money. You poor suckers. I can't imagine how you get by.

So you take one of the largest pay scales and use that as your example? Good one. Maybe when you get out of high school and learn the facts you can actually participate in this conversation. Otherwise, I would prefer if you got the facts straight before posting so I don't have to read this crap.

[V]

Been out of high school for 10 years. Nice to see our teachers take the "until you grow up, keep your nose out of 'adult' business" approach, though...

Fact is, whether or not 70k is at the top or bottom of the pay scale, that's still pretty good money. For working 9 months. I understand you put in overtime. Along with the rest of the province. So do I. You won't hear me crying about it.

[V]

Engineers are underpaid


I was going to post this in jest. But two posters have written this seriously. Unbelievable. Let's just say I make more than enough to get by, and I decide where to place streetlights.

[MJK]

Been out of high school for 10 years. Nice to see our teachers take the "until you grow up, keep your nose out of 'adult' business" approach, though...

Fact is, whether or not 70k is at the top or bottom of the pay scale, that's still pretty good money. For working 9 months. I understand you put in overtime. Along with the rest of the province. So do I. You won't hear me crying about it.

Well, once again you need to get the facts straight. We are not just talking about Alberta here, or Ontario for that matter. You need to realize that 90% of teachers DO NOT make 70K/year. You took the largest number and used it as your example.

The title of this thread is "Underpaid Careers" not "Underpaid Careers in Alberta".

Base salary for a teacher starting off is roughly 40K/year. I will not get into particulars but I would argue that teachers are a pretty damn important part of society. Considering the amount of work required and the responsibilities involved, teachers are VERY underpaid.

Now if you will excuse me, I need to do some correcting...:ph34r:

[Jake]

Professors are underpaid... they spend a ton of time in school and sometimes mark about 900 exams per class at least twice a semester(granted thats divided between two or three professors sometimes). They also have to answer hundreds of emails a week from students and do their own research.

[V]

Yeah, I know it starts at 40k. I was really depressed with my job a couple years ago, and thought of going back to school to become a teacher. It was pretty tough to justify cutting my salary in half. Granted, I was going from a P. Eng to a base level teacher, so a significant cut was expected. Still, 40k over 9 months translates to over 50 over 12 months, as long as you can get yourself working in a trade. Pick up a shovel for a month and a half at 15 bucks an hour in the summer. You can get paid overtime for that.

[metallicat]

I think one of the main reasons that I don't think teachers are overpaid, is because without proper teachers, where would this world go? Teachers play such a vital role in the development of kids, they need to be paid properly to entice people to the profession. I think teaching is one of those careers that most do for non-selfish reasons, but if the financial reasons attract a few good teachers as well, that's an added bonus.

[Burninator]

Well Hypothetically lets take your job whatever that may be, and lets add the Element of at any moment someone could walk into said job and shove a gun in your face and threaten to murder you for a couple of hundred dollars? is that worth $9 an hour to you? I wouldn't think so.
There are lots of jobs that run the same risk. But for the most part a convenient store job does not have substantial risk that would require danger pay. It's not like when your a convenient store worker, a good day is day when you come home alive.

[Burninator]

I think one of the main reasons that I don't think teachers are overpaid, is because without proper teachers, where would this world go? Teachers play such a vital role in the development of kids, they need to be paid properly to entice people to the profession. I think teaching is one of those careers that most do for non-selfish reasons, but if the financial reasons attract a few good teachers as well, that's an added bonus.

But that is the exact opposite of what is happening. No one is saying, "I want to make lots of money, I am going to become a teacher." In fact your right that most people do it because they want to or have a love for it. I can't imagine how people out there want to become teachers but decide to go into business because the money isn't there for teaching. It's a shame really.

[Fire]

CFL football players. Some of them are playing pro ball for $40k to $50k a year. That is crazy. Iginla makes more more than the Stampeders combined. Even Tanguay makes more than the whole team.


CFL players are not underpaid and NHL players are not overpaid. Players from both leagues make a fair percentage of the leagues total revenue.

[metallicat]

But that is the exact opposite of what is happening. No one is saying, "I want to make lots of money, I am going to become a teacher." In fact your right that most people do it because they want to or have a love for it. I can't imagine how people out there want to become teachers but decide to go into business because the money isn't there for teaching. It's a shame really.Then those people shouldn't be teachers when it comes down to it. If you want to be a teacher, do it for the right reasons, and if the money is good enough to be a nice bonus, then great.

[DementedReality]

...

i think for the most part people are paid exactly what they should.

if you are underpaid, then surely someone out there will pay you more, so go and get that job. otherwise, clearly you arent underpaid.

no such thing as overpaid.

[PYroMaNiaC]

I believe that good teachers are a godsend. I have no idea how they can do what they do every day. I'd volunteer for cleaning out the inside of 100 tar pots before I'd take on the task of teaching a class of 30 young people to become productive member of society. I have my hands full with two.

I was in Frank's camp just two short years ago. Now, I'm firmly with MJK. These people teach our future. I say pay them more - way more! It's conditional though: the bad ones have to go because the damage a single bad teacher can do is unspeakable.

[Flames in 07]

i think for the most part people are paid exactly what they should.

if you are underpaid, then surely someone out there will pay you more, so go and get that job. otherwise, clearly you arent underpaid.

no such thing as overpaid.

I agree, to the extent people care about money.

Obviously if someone has options, and/or marketable skills they are paid market or 'fair' rates.

With some exceptions where people do the job because of other intrisic value like teaching or fighting fires.

[Antithesis]

Yeah, I know it starts at 40k. I was really depressed with my job a couple years ago, and thought of going back to school to become a teacher. It was pretty tough to justify cutting my salary in half. Granted, I was going from a P. Eng to a base level teacher, so a significant cut was expected. Still, 40k over 9 months translates to over 50 over 12 months, as long as you can get yourself working in a trade. Pick up a shovel for a month and a half at 15 bucks an hour in the summer. You can get paid overtime for that.

I've posted this before as a query because I've honestly never had much of a "desk job" in my life but never gotten any discussion out of it.

As a teacher, I work at least 10 hours a day. I know this isn't anything out of the ordinary, but what I am wondering is this: when I say I work that much, I literally mean I work that much. Not I am AT work that much. I pride myself on the fact that I am a very efficient worker so little time is wasted. My break consists of (4 days a week) a ~40 minute lunch break. The other day I have supervision at lunch.

What I'm getting at here is, at work, I can't take "CP Breaks" or "Fark Breaks" or just get up and go to the next cube to speak to a co-worker. Hell, I can't even get up and go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it (yes, I literally have to plan bathroom breaks into my day). When I hear the argument, "So what, everyone works that much", I wonder if that figure is in actual hours worked or if it is the amount of time people spend at work. Does that make sense?

As I said before, I am generally happy with what I earn and I understand that as a teacher and a public servant, I trade earning potential for job security.

The issue of teacher burnout is indeed very real because I see it happening to colleagues all the time. It can't be that teachers are a bunch of wimps (I don't think) ... so what could another explanation be?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

To throw a few jobs that really haven't been mentioned out there....

Politicians - I know some people will say what does the average politician do and how do they really deserve the salary that they are getting, but having met more than a few politicans in my life I know that for the most part they work quite hard - especially those in the notable positions. It isn't the country club that many people envision it to be.

Police Officers/Soldiers/Fire Fighters/EMT - These are the people who go out and put themselves in harms way and their wages sure don't reflect that. I have aspirations to be in one of these careers so that might make me biased.

Rig Workers - having worked on the rigs for a while I have no qualms in saying that the workers out there deserve every cent that they get and most likely more, 12 hour days for two weeks at a time and then getting a week off and doing it again, working in all weather conditions, etc, etc... Might not have the education but in terms of a physically demanding job that has to be near the top of the list. Plus it is absolute hell on personal relationships.

Social Services - Involved in this as well and I hated it with a passion, put up with unimaginable crap and really got nothing out of it in terms of monitary compensation.

Artists - What other career do you really start making money after you have died?

[DementedReality]

...that worth $9 an hour to you? I wouldn't think so.

no, but if it wasnt worth $9.00 per hour to the person doing the work right now, they wouldnt be doing the job.

is the company holding a gun to their head too? quit if the pay doesnt equate with the work. its a simple concept.

[Burninator]

Then those people shouldn't be teachers when it comes down to it. If you want to be a teacher, do it for the right reasons, and if the money is good enough to be a nice bonus, then great.
True but there is a large stigma within society that money is the most important thing even over doing what you love.

I remeber around the time when I graduated from high school how many people I talked to (usually considerably older than me) told me, "pick a job and start earning as soon as you can, and then start saving for retirement." Their attitude was that between 18 and 64 was the boring lead up to the exciting age of 65 when I could relish in all my boring unfilling work of the past 46 years. Needless to say I didn't follow their advice.

[iggypop]

Yeah average starting wage of $50,000+. :whaa:

Its actually $67,000 to start as of this year in Calgary

[V]

Its actually $67,000 to start as of this year in Calgary

That is completely false. Take a look at the APEGGA Salary Survey for proof if you like. I know a couple of early P. Eng's in the consulting business that make less than 65k. And this isn't out of line with table 5a of the Salary Survey.

http://www.apegga.org/pdf/SalarySurvey/SSH_06.pdf

[The Yen Man]

Engineers are underpaid

Business majors are overpaid (they coast on all the money the engineers make for them)

Particularly in the oil industry

Yah, ok there buddy. Considering all the engineers (real engineers and not the technicians that come out of SAIT, cuz they don't count) I know started at 50+ after grad, and once they get their P.Eng, make close to if not over the 6 digit figure, they're really underpaid there. Even the technicians get potentially around 60K. Couple that with insane benefits in the oil industry, and I seriously question whether your post was in jest or not.

[yahoo]

Teachers are underpaid IMO considering the amount of work they have to do on their spare time. The work involved outside of school is unreal.

Yes definitely, teachers are underpaid all over the world..

[Superflyer]

Another profession is IT. One of the main reasons here is that IT gets no respect. Almost every business needs them and yet they give them no respect as a profession. People still think that they are a bunch of geeks that have nothing better to do all day but work on a computer.
I am lucky now, I finally got into a job where I am respected for what I do. They realize that if we were not here they would be trying to figure out well pressures and transit rates with a pencil, paper and calculator. But before I started where I am IT sucked, when the network and computers were up and running fine (which was about 98% of the time) we were told that we were useless cause everything was fine, but when something went down we were told that we were useless because things were ALWAYS broken.

[Superflyer]

As a question to the teachers out there, what do you do on pro-d days. THis is one of the things that I see people complain about, "Oh another pro-d day, I guess the teachers need another day off..." I think that if what happens on these days is explained then people would lay off on that, cause I am sure that it is not just a day off.....right?
Also just to say I think that teachers are very important and deserve to be paid well, I would not be where I am if it was not for a few special teachers that helped me along the way.

[Burninator]

As a question to the teachers out there, what do you do on pro-d days. THis is one of the things that I see people complain about, "Oh another pro-d day, I guess the teachers need another day off..." I think that if what happens on these days is explained then people would lay off on that, cause I am sure that it is not just a day off.....right?
Also just to say I think that teachers are very important and deserve to be paid well, I would not be where I am if it was not for a few special teachers that helped me along the way.

I'm sure the teachers can explain this better. But I think they usually have staff meetings, time for lesson planning etc. My mother tells me she is usually at school longer on a PD day.

[redforever]

As a question to the teachers out there, what do you do on pro-d days. THis is one of the things that I see people complain about, "Oh another pro-d day, I guess the teachers need another day off..." I think that if what happens on these days is explained then people would lay off on that, cause I am sure that it is not just a day off.....right?
Also just to say I think that teachers are very important and deserve to be paid well, I would not be where I am if it was not for a few special teachers that helped me along the way.

Quite often there are a number of things you can attend. There might be a new program being introduced next year, say a new component of Math 30, perhaps a complete make over of some subject, then those teachers involved would meet with department heads whatever and you go over the changes and how it will affect your lesson plans, what new textbooks will be introduced, etc. Or perhaps the government will be adding more testing and then you have to see at what grade levels, see what they are testing for, how it will affect your lesson plans again, those type of things.

On the other hand, there might be something planned on special needs children. There might be something on new teaching aids, new approaches to teaching, whatever.

Sometimes of course, you might choose to stay within your own school and address internal problems etc.

When teachers' convention, same thing as any other profession. Key note speakers are brought in and you pick and choose which you wish to hear, it all depends on what you are teaching or what you wish to address. Just keep in mind that PD (professional development) days and teachers conventions keep to the same principles as any other profession, they address innovations or problems within the field you are working.

Now where the public gives teachers flack is these PD days usually extend a weekend. Then the general public thinks, they arent doing any development, they are just extending their time off for a long weekend and they have hit the hills skiing.

But the public has themselves to blame for that. When first introduced, PD days were any old day of the week. Hmmnnn, care to gather your thoughts and think what parents thought of that? It went something along the lines of "Geez, dont teachers know we work during the week, now I have to go and arrange baby sitting and how can I do that in the middle of the week?" Or else it was, "well, if you are gonna have those PD days, why dont you do it on a day that hits a weekend (ie: Friday or Monday ) so we can plan family activities for those days!!!"

Dont forget, teachers are not your babysitters, teachers are educators!!!

[Reaper]

I have a BSc in Computer Science and am halfway done with an MSc in Nutrition.So, you're going to be able to tell us what computers we should be eating? :blink:

[return to the red]

In what capacity do you deal with city workers? I am one. I'm not saying we're all hard workers, but the slam against city workers tends to get old when everyone you know mentions it to you. :rolleyes:

I deal with some of the guys in the parks department. It's not uncommon for them to come to the shop to pick up a 50 cent item, sit around and have a couple cups of coffee, drive back across the city just in time for them to make it back for lunch, come back after lunch for another 50 cent item and then back to the repair.

Is it just coincidence that Montreal had to put tracking devices on their trucks to find out where their employees are when they were seen spending hours on end in coffee shops?

To be fair to you though, when I refer to city employees I'm not talking about those that you would find in upper management positions and around city hall

[V]

Another profession is IT. One of the main reasons here is that IT gets no respect. Almost every business needs them and yet they give them no respect as a profession. People still think that they are a bunch of geeks that have nothing better to do all day but work on a computer.
I am lucky now, I finally got into a job where I am respected for what I do. They realize that if we were not here they would be trying to figure out well pressures and transit rates with a pencil, paper and calculator. But before I started where I am IT sucked, when the network and computers were up and running fine (which was about 98% of the time) we were told that we were useless cause everything w as fine, but when something went down we were told that we were useless because things were ALWAYS broken.

Pfft, you just fill a hole that needs filling. What kind of respect do you want? You don't do anything special. Should I have people bowing down to me because if I didn't do my job there would be countless Diagnostic Imaging rooms around the city without power? That's pretty important stuff.

I've been with three different companies now, and it's been the same with all three. The IT guy gets a ticket, he performs the work, and he leaves. Job well done. I don't see why he needs a pat on the back.

Everyone thinks they're underappreciated and underpaid, when the fact is they're usually neither.

[Superflyer]

Pfft, you just fill a hole that needs filling. What kind of respect do you want? You don't do anything special. Should I have people bowing down to me because if I didn't do my job there would be countless Diagnostic Imaging rooms around the city without power? That's pretty important stuff.

I've been with three different companies now, and it's been the same with all three. The IT guy gets a ticket, he performs the work, and he leaves. Job well done. I don't see why he needs a pat on the back.

Everyone thinks they're underappreciated and underpaid, when the fact is they're usually neither.

See this is what I mean, I am not saying that IT is more important then other jobs out there. There are many other jobs that are more important then what we do but I would not do them, my choice.
But what I am saying is what you discribed in your they get a ticket, do a job and leave. If your computer is down and not working at all who gets the crap for that.....If it is not fixed in 15 minutes while you go for coffee who gets the crap.....if there is a specific program that is not working that you decided to install yourself who gets the crap....
I get this all the time, people who think that they know computers cause they have one at home and can surf the internet they know all there is to know and they install crap and modify stuff then when it breaks it is not there fault.
I am also not saying that I am underpaid cause as I said before I got lucky and found a compnay that knows what we do. I am paid well, not overpaid but well enough. But when people break into the world of IT they can expect pay that is relative to working at McD's and such.

[socalwingfan]

To put things in perspective for other emergency workers...

EMT's (one year of schooling, plus EMR) start at $21.96 (and can work there way up to a cap of $26.70)....so for a forty two hour work week (which is average for them) their annual wage ranges from $47,000 - $59,000 gross.

Paramedics (Two years of schooling plus EMT, plus EMR) start at $23.74 (up to $30.26)...$51,000 - $67,000 annually.

Firefighters, like CPS work on a five year class...

edit: stupid formatting....here's a link (http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_395_203_0_47/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Calgary+Fire+Department/Firefighter+Recruitment/Position+Information/Firefighter+Wages%252c+Benefits+and+Pension.htm).. .first year firefighters start at a whopping $19.28 per hour and will roughly make $42,000 annually.

Crap my wife worked as an EMT and made 1/2 of what EMTs there make!! She moved into dispatch and actually got a raise over her EMT salary. EMTs here make close to minimum wage and are dealing with crazy **** everyday - it's freakin ridiculous.

[ken0042]

I've been with three different companies now, and it's been the same with all three. The IT guy gets a ticket, he performs the work, and he leaves. Job well done. I don't see why he needs a pat on the back.

It's because of the things that you don't see the IT guy doing that your computer and network works as well as it does. You have already indicated that in your job you do things behind the scenes that may not be noticed.

From an IT standpoint myself; I didn't see Superflyer's post as saying he wanted to be recognized for his day to day job. He was saying that what many of us see and hear as people believing that we are simply an unnessesary expense. It's one thing to be oblivious to people behind the scenes who make stuff work. It's another to openly say that those people don't do anything because you don't see them do something.

[JiriHrdina]

See this is what I mean, I am not saying that IT is more important then other jobs out there. There are many other jobs that are more important then what we do but I would not do them, my choice.
But what I am saying is what you discribed in your they get a ticket, do a job and leave. If your computer is down and not working at all who gets the crap for that.....If it is not fixed in 15 minutes while you go for coffee who gets the crap.....if there is a specific program that is not working that you decided to install yourself who gets the crap....
I get this all the time, people who think that they know computers cause they have one at home and can surf the internet they know all there is to know and they install crap and modify stuff then when it breaks it is not there fault.
I am also not saying that I am underpaid cause as I said before I got lucky and found a compnay that knows what we do. I am paid well, not overpaid but well enough. But when people break into the world of IT they can expect pay that is relative to working at McD's and such.


To be blunt, one of the primary reasons why IT folks are treated this way is because of how they treat their customers. Inability to explain the problem, talking down to them, arrogance and what not.

You are dealing with people when they are likely stressed and suddenly without their primary work tool. No wonder they are stressed and perhaps a little snippy. Good people skills can disarm a situation but quite often the IT professional will say the wrong thing and instead escalate it.

Not saying, you or all IT guys are like that, but there are some out there that certainly qualify.

[redforever]

It's because of the things that you don't see the IT guy doing that your computer and network works as well as it does. You have already indicated that in your job you do things behind the scenes that may not be noticed.

From an IT standpoint myself; I didn't see Superflyer's post as saying he wanted to be recognized for his day to day job. He was saying that what many of us see and hear as people believing that we are simply an unnessesary expense. It's one thing to be oblivious to people behind the scenes who make stuff work. It's another to openly say that those people don't do anything because you don't see them do something.

You are right. As far as I am concerned, my IT guy is worth his weight in gold and I tell him as much straight to his face. And I will pay him more than he asks when I know he has made a special effort to come promptly even though I know everyone tells him it is an emergency and asks him to come come right away. As far as I am concerned, if your system is down, so are you and your company down and idle time does not pay much!!!

[Ford Prefect]

Everyone thinks they're underappreciated and underpaid, when the fact is they're usually neither.

This is most truthful statement in the entire thread. Pretty much everybody thinks they're more valuable than they really are. Except for EMTs and paramedics ... it's criminal how little they get paid for what they do. I'm not an EMT or paramedic, but I know a few. There is no way I would go through the stress and crap they have to for so little money. And the medics in Alberta are among the highest paid in Canada! It's even worse in other provinces.

[redforever]

To be blunt, one of the primary reasons why IT folks are treated this way is because of how they treat their customers. Inability to explain the problem, talking down to them, arrogance and what not.

You are dealing with people when they are likely stressed and suddenly without their primary work tool. No wonder they are stressed and perhaps a little snippy. Good people skills can disarm a situation but quite often the IT professional will say the wrong thing and instead escalate it.

Not saying, you or all IT guys are like that, but there are some out there that certainly qualify.


This can be said about any profession. Have you been to any doctor lately, a specialist who is run off his feet? Try seeing how much time they have for all of your queries and how many people skills they have. They can be very cold and aloof.

You dont like your current guy, get another, shop around. And dont forget, just because you are stressed does not give you the right to be snippy. You need good people skills as well. We are all stressed, not just you, dont take it out on the IT guy if you snip at him and he is not as cordial with you as you would like.

[V]

But what I am saying is what you discribed in your they get a ticket, do a job and leave. If your computer is down and not working at all who gets the crap for that Nobody. Computers break down, that's why we have IT. Why does someone need to get crap?

.....If it is not fixed in 15 minutes while you go for coffee who gets the crapDepends what the problem was. If the job should've taken 30 minutes, I would've expected the IT guy to tell me so when he saw the problem. If he said it would take 5 minutes and it took 2 hours? I'd be annoyed, and rightly so, I think.

.....if there is a specific program that is not working that you decided to install yourself who gets the crap....The employee. At least at two of the companies I've worked for. No alien software allowed.


I get this all the time, people who think that they know computers cause they have one at home and can surf the internet they know all there is to know and they install crap and modify stuff then when it breaks it is not there fault.
If you think you are the only person that experiences this you're off your rocker. Everyone thinks they can do everyone else's jobs. I get it all the time, and I know many other people who complain about the same thing. This is not special to IT.

[V]

It's another to openly say that those people don't do anything because you don't see them do something.


I don't know if you mean that I said this, or the average joe says this, because I never said any such thing. Just that the average worker gets the special recognition and reward of a paycheque every two weeks for performing at work. Nothing else should be expected.

[ken0042]

I don't know if you mean that I said this, or the average joe says this, because I never said any such thing. Just that the average worker gets the special recognition and reward of a paycheque every two weeks for performing at work. Nothing else should be expected.

No, I wasn't trying to imply that you had said it. I was just giving an example of what was meant by people not appreciating the IT staff. My company is big enough that not everybody knows everyone, so I sometimes get onto an elevator where people are slagging the IT department.

As for the IT people wanting more than just a paycheque, let me give you an example. You as the end user do something you are not supposed to do; let's say plug your iPod into a work PC. Your computer crashes and you have a report that is due. The PC will not restart. This type of service level within your company is an 8 hour turn around. Your IT not only gets you back up and running within 90 minutes, but also recovers the data that is on your hard drive; even though company policy states that no corperate info should be stored on your hard drive.

To me, that deserves a thank you.

[JiriHrdina]

This can be said about any profession. Have you been to any doctor lately, a specialist who is run off his feet? Try seeing how much time they have for all of your queries and how many people skills they have. They can be very cold and aloof.

You dont like your current guy, get another, shop around. And dont forget, just because you are stressed does not give you the right to be snippy. You need good people skills as well. We are all stressed, not just you, dont take it out on the IT guy if you snip at him and he is not as cordial with you as you would like.

Did I say I wasn't happy with my guy? Or that I was snippy?

Nope. I did not. I like my IT guy, and don't get snippy when my computer doesn't work. I don't really get snippy at work at all.

So no need to get defensive.

But IT professionals need to look at the folks they serve as their "clients" and treat them as such. If they do, perhaps their services will be more valued.

Again, some do this, but some do not.

[brownie]

Millwrights are underpaid IMO

[Superflyer]

Boy look at the can of worms that I opened.
I must say that not all people are snippy and most times it can be tied to their personality, but sometimes a really nice person can turn on you as well if it crashes in an inoportune (sp) time. And since I am an IT guy and the computer crashed then it falls on me. Then again other people do not care, they like it to be down then they have an excuse to not do work.

Also why should I look at a co-worker as my client? They do not look at me like a client, they are a co-worker. In that mentalitly IT would be pretty low in the company as we can service everyone that has a computer and in most companies that is most if not all. And if they are our clients then we should hold everyone above us because the client is always right.

[V]

Also why should I look at a co-worker as my client? They do not look at me like a client, they are a co-worker. In that mentalitly IT would be pretty low in the company as we can service everyone that has a computer and in most companies that is most if not all. And if they are our clients then we should hold everyone above us because the client is always right.

In the two big companies I've worked at, the IT Department has to view the users as clients. It's the same as the HR group. I think the main reason for this is because you can't bill an external company for the work that you do, while pretty much every other profit centre sends out invoices to external companies, in other words, their clients.

I don't know if this is exactly how higher level management views the relationship between IT and the workers, but that's always the impression I've gotten.

[V]

No, I wasn't trying to imply that you had said it. I was just giving an example of what was meant by people not appreciating the IT staff. My company is big enough that not everybody knows everyone, so I sometimes get onto an elevator where people are slagging the IT department.


Well, maybe it's because my ears perk up when I hear certain things, but I hear far, far more engineer slagging than IT slagging. I hear it every day.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

But IT professionals need to look at the folks they serve as their "clients" and treat them as such. If they do, perhaps their services will be more valued.

Again, some do this, but some do not.

I see what you are saying, but unfortunately, this isn't true for majority of the IT pros I work with.

I won't go into detail about my background, but I have worked for 2 of the most well known oil and gas software companies in Calgary. I have the fortune to have worked with both sides, the client and the IT. I have worked with probably 20 to 30 outsourced IT companies, and I am confident that I have probably met more than 100 IT professionals and have worked closely with majority of them. It is a thankless job. Most of the folks I work with are professional, but their professionalism goes unnoticed. I know this because the clients are never ceasing in their complaints, even when there's really nothing much to complain about...or when it is clearly not the IT's fault (such as software bugs).

That is why I will never work in the outsource IT field.

[V]

Why? Just because we're better than everyone else, and they're all jealous??

[kevman]

i think for the most part people are paid exactly what they should.

if you are underpaid, then surely someone out there will pay you more, so go and get that job. otherwise, clearly you arent underpaid.

no such thing as overpaid.

I have to agree, you are paid what you are worth to the company. If you are in fact "underpaid" that is your own fault for not doing something about the situation.

A buddy of mine was actually complaining about being underpaid last night. His boss was just fired and the guy working the opposing shift has been gone for a month or so. He's in a position that he's the only one that can do his job with no one above and below him. As a result he's had to work alot of extra overtime with very little chance of getting time off and is still earning the same amount. I told him he's being an idiot! It's up to him to make sure that he is earning what he feels he is worth especially in a situation where he has so much leverage.

Maybe I should qualify my statement and say that no one is underpaid in the private sector. The same argument could be made for the public sector but like all things public it just takes longer for them to adjust to the current economy.

I should also add that being "underpaid" or "overpaid" has more to do then numbers on a paycheque.

[FlameCity]

I think dentists are overpaid.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Import Models are overpaid

[Looger]

I think dentists are overpaid.

so do doctors...

dentists do ok.

doctors in general are well paid here, up north it seems most little towns have south african doctors as i've heard they make something like $30,000 in their own country and maybe those places aren't on the top of a canadian's list.

[Dion]

Prison guards are underpaid. Having to deal with people who hate your guts on a daily basis, and the constant threat of violence should things ever get out of control.

[brownie]

Why? Just because we're better than everyone else, and they're all jealous??LMAO good one

[Looger]

Prison guards are underpaid. Having to deal with people who hate your guts on a daily basis, and the constant threat of violence should things ever get out of control.
yeah...

but if they were paid enough then they wouldn't sneak drugs in, and they'd probably make less money on average!

[Resolute 14]

Did I say I wasn't happy with my guy? Or that I was snippy?

Nope. I did not. I like my IT guy, and don't get snippy when my computer doesn't work. I don't really get snippy at work at all.

So no need to get defensive.

But IT professionals need to look at the folks they serve as their "clients" and treat them as such. If they do, perhaps their services will be more valued.

Again, some do this, but some do not.

It has been mentioned, no doubt, but a lot of clients (and yes, they are my clients) have wildly unrealistic views of the capability of the IT person helping them. There are a lot of people who expect that we can just push a button, or waive a magic wand, and everything will work again. When reality meets this fantasy, the client often gets visibly annoyed. Doubly so when their fantasy is crushed both by reality, and by company policy.

IT is a lot like officiating. When you do a good job, nobody cares about you. When you do a poor job, everyone wants to lynch you. More often than not, the conflict is caused by the client's beliefs and expectations.

[Reaper]

Well after all the information contained herein my answer is now Social Workers and those who help the disabled. You rarely hear them go on about their pay and that means something to me.Thank You!

[Reaper]

Why? Just because we're better than everyone else, and they're all jealous??No, it is because you take a program where they beat you down, treat you like crap and then you guys have all this misplaced anger that you randomly spew on the rest of the world when you should have just made peace with the fact that your instructors were jerks.

[V]

To be clear, my statement regarding engineers being better than everyone else was completely tongue in cheek. I don't think a lot of people read it that way.

[mykalberta]

The pay isn't bad, it's the working conditions that suck. My wife works this complicated 13 week schedule that is impossible to keep track of. I'm never sure if she is working tomorrow or not. She works every second weekend and some 3-11PM shifts as well. We have small kids, so this sort of schedule is hard on family life. She works a "0.7" position, which is 70% of a full time shift, but not by choice... It is hard to get a full time shift, mostly the Health Region creates these stupid part time positions and then tries to manage the workload by calling people at 6AM for extra shifts (which they don't have to pay overtime because you aren't working full time to begin with).

On the plus side, most patients are quite appreciative of the Nurse's work...

My mom is also a nurse, the govt does that because there is a special pay rate they get or something if the nurse works a full time shift. Nurses can thank their militant union for that.

MYK

[jar_e]

Crap my wife worked as an EMT and made 1/2 of what EMTs there make!! She moved into dispatch and actually got a raise over her EMT salary. EMTs here make close to minimum wage and are dealing with crazy **** everyday - it's freakin ridiculous.

Yeah I've heard some crazy things from the states in regards to pay and such. It's interesting you mention the dispatch thing...things are the same here. If you work up in dispatch, you definitely make more than a base EMT and paramedic. It's kinda weird, you'd think it would be the other way around.

[mykalberta]

To be blunt, one of the primary reasons why IT folks are treated this way is because of how they treat their customers. Inability to explain the problem, talking down to them, arrogance and what not.

You are dealing with people when they are likely stressed and suddenly without their primary work tool. No wonder they are stressed and perhaps a little snippy. Good people skills can disarm a situation but quite often the IT professional will say the wrong thing and instead escalate it.

Not saying, you or all IT guys are like that, but there are some out there that certainly qualify.

Inability to explain the problem? That is purposefully done because it would take 30 minutes to explain it an all possible side problems that also could have caused it and when 2 IT people look after 640 people across Canada, umm yah we dont have time to explain every little thing to you. Does your mechanic explain to you whats caused your brakes to fail or does he say your brakes failed.

There may be some IT persons that talk down, me and my co-worker dont, if your ##### is broke we come down with a replacement and fix your old one and then bring it back down, very little chit chat goes on with people we know to be IT troublemakers - its easy to tell those people from the ones who are at least thankful they didnt have to wait a few hours.

I dont believe IT is under-paid, I am very happy getting paid 50K+ 2 years out of school and am now on the Network Engineer Path. I dont work alot of overtime (except when Enmax decides to do power upgrades on a weekday night - idiots), I am on call 24/7 for all VP and Managers, about 18 people in Canada.

I agree with other posters, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER work in a contract situation - if the job isnt in house then see yah lata, thats why I am still with my current jobs, all the job sharks that call me are all offering contract jobs with average 40k+ more cash and I always say sorry, I care about the quality of the work experience.

Also, IT has a bad rap because companies has often used it as a pasture ground for employees not wanted else where. In a company I worked for as a summer student, senior IT project managers were former secretaries with no training - needless to say projects were drastically over budget and very coookily designed.

Short story: When I was first out school lookign for a job I had an interview (4 actually) with the Red Deer health authority among others, I was 99% guarateed the job by people who ran the IT situation there as a junior network admin (I even started to study hardcore for about 2 months for my CCNP and turned down interviews with the Royal Bank and ATB) and then - oops, the guy I had an interview with drives to where I was living at the time to give me the bad news that a former assitant was given the job, no computer network training, no nothing. I asked him why he drove 150K instead of just calling and he said he had never felt that bad in his entire life and he knows that he will just be looking for someone new in 2 years max after this person doesnt pan out and causes his workload to double - I then applied to a few places in Calgary and within a week was hired after 1 phone interview, 1 drive down interview, 1 phone inview with IT in Houston, then bam, can you start next week.

MYK

[JiriHrdina]

Inability to explain the problem? That is purposefully done because it would take 30 minutes to explain it an all possible side problems that also could have caused it and when 2 IT people look after 640 people across Canada, umm yah we dont have time to explain every little thing to you.

And that's the type of terse response that ticks off management when dealing with IT personnel.

Every employee in an organization has to justify their place in an organization. Particularly those that don't generate revenue.

If a sales guy is unable to perform his job because his email is down the company is losing money by the hour. If the IT guy can't get it back up and running and can't explain why that is - well that's when you have a problem.

Bottom line is that in many organizations the IT team operates in a world of mystery where no one else understands what their job involves - this impacts both the IT employee and the organization negatively. The IT employee feels and is underappreciated and management can't figure out why they are spending so much money on it.

Better communication between the two would do wonders.

[ken0042]

And that's the type of terse response that ticks off management when dealing with IT personnel.

I guess I would say that if a manager wants to know; I'll be happy to make the time. If Joe User wants to know, then I will be happy to explain it to his or my manager if the need is there.

I just see many times where I know what the fix is, but don't always know what the cause was as well. For example; why did your account get locked out? I don't always know the exact cause, but it takes me 10 seconds to unlock it, and if it happens twice then we'll look deeper. Instead of me spending 30 minutes to look at every scenario to find out you don't know the difference between your number lock being off or on, I just correct the problem and move on to the next issue.

Obviously that is just a very simple example, but hopefully I've made my point.

[mykalberta]

And that's the type of terse response that ticks off management when dealing with IT personnel.

Every employee in an organization has to justify their place in an organization. Particularly those that don't generate revenue.

If a sales guy is unable to perform his job because his email is down the company is losing money by the hour. If the IT guy can't get it back up and running and can't explain why that is - well that's when you have a problem.

Bottom line is that in many organizations the IT team operates in a world of mystery where no one else understands what their job involves - this impacts both the IT employee and the organization negatively. The IT employee feels and is underappreciated and management can't figure out why they are spending so much money on it.

Better communication between the two would do wonders.

I dont know any inhouse IT persons who are terse with management - that would be a big no no for in house IT persons.

If you computer is not working, why exactly would be an appropriate response. IT persons are expected to solve problems as quickly and expediciously as possible. We bring down a replacement machine to get you working and take your broke one to fix it. Why exactly do you need to know what was wrong, honestly half the time we dont know what caused it, we can theorize (java, acrobat update, opensource music player etc) and normally I will give a best guess answer to it but that is about it, normal in houe IT dont have time to chat for 15 minutes about the problems with comptuers - honestly half the time I am afraid the conversation will ere off into a problem at home and the user asking if "he can bring his machine in for me to look at it". We know what what is broke and how to fix it and that is what we are paid to do.

What do you want to know about IT.

How is it magical and mysterical? Firewalls connected to routers, connected to switches conencted to servers (domain controller, dhcp, file, print, app, Exchange (M$ email server) etc, connected to users computers). VPN routers connected so you can access files in houston, singapore, chicago etc.
Domain controllers authenticate your user account based on a list of permissions called the ACTIVE DIRECTORY and domain controllers talk to each other (replicate their database) normally once a night with other domain controllers around the world.

Sometimes things break, normally no warning is ever given.

What company do you work for that the IT person doenst tell you why the email is down? I will agree, that is an a$$munch of an IT person.

Top 5 reasons why email is down.
(1) Your network cable is unplugged/wall jack busted/cable ripped/you disabled your network connection (normally happens when attempting to connect notebook to home wireless)
(2) ISP Internet line to your office is down
(3) VPN connecting your office with the exchange server is down (VPN is a virtual tunnel created across the Internet to provide secure access to your network) normally a routing issue with ISP or Router died/needs reboot
(4) network problems where exchange server resides/email storm (people sending 50mb pdf files between each other instead of keeping them on the file server - much bigger problem then you may think/personal-funny videos
(5) exchange server is down - likely database is currupted and the server requries a reboot.

I cant honestly believe that any in house IT persons wouldnt tell at least a manager of a location why the email is down - sales persons, aux employees not the priority - manager who might have an ear of a VP - PRIORITY.

Top reason why commucation between the "peons" and IT isnt the greatest, said above, when 2 IT persons handle 650 computer users plus are responsible for 26 different locations, there isnt alot of time for that. The reason for that is that in house IT knows it will ALWAYS be the first division looked at for cuts - so must keep its operation lean and that hurts communication.

MYK

[fredr123]

Lawyers! Well, prosecutors and those that work for legal aid. I think they're underpaid for what they do. Pay varies widely for other lawyers and I won't stand here with a straight face and say some of them are underpaid...

[JiriHrdina]

Top reason why commucation between the "peons" and IT isnt the greatest, said above, when 2 IT persons handle 650 computer users plus are responsible for 26 different locations, there isnt alot of time for that. The reason for that is that in house IT knows it will ALWAYS be the first division looked at for cuts - so must keep its operation lean and that hurts communication.
MYK

Perhaps the differences in my experience rests with the type of businesses I've worked with. I've typically been involved with small-mid size companies where the IT department consists of 1/2 people. But a lot of what you say above is true - in one company I had to convince the President that we couldn't just fire the IT guy because he "didn't know what he does all day". or because "my email is always down".

In this organization the IT guy, who was great at his job, but bad at communicating, would be a source of frustration for the President. This was the type of boss for whom "no" was never an answer you should give him. And the IT guy couldn't figure that out.

That's just one example. Coincidently as I sit here today working away, I overheard one of my bosses ranting about the IT support he's received, and at the same time. Earlier I heard our IT guy basically tell one of the other guys here that he didn't have time to look into his problem until sometime "late this week". For someone on a deadline that's not a good answer.

Thinking about this out loud, I think the challenge is that in a small/medium sized business the IT guy is undermanaged. He's the only guy here that does this - he reports to a VP, but the VP has no clue about this stuff. So he pretty much is free to "run amuck". No one knows what he does, and the guy can't seem to communicate it either.

In a larger organization you have someone in place to manage the IT department as a whole, set standard and evaluate performance (I assume).

[Phanuthier]

Yah, ok there buddy. Considering all the engineers (real engineers and not the technicians that come out of SAIT, cuz they don't count) I know started at 50+ after grad, and once they get their P.Eng, make close to if not over the 6 digit figure, they're really underpaid there.
Engineers in Oil and Gas pulls that up. For ones that don't, they're alot lower.

Engineers in Management are way overpaid. R&D engineers are under.

[maverickeastwood]

Millwrights are underpaid IMO

I agree, because we have to deal with engineers:D

[Sainters7]

That's your opinion.

Teachers get paid a salary for the days they work during the year that does NOT include the summer. It is actually the choice of the teacher to have a portion of every cheque gets held back so in reality, not every teacher gets paid during the summer. Is that too hard to understand?

But thanks for being snotty about it anyhow.

Im not in the field yet, still in school, but I am in the Education Dept. In my EDFX class last year we took a look at the pay chart for teachers in Alberta. We were all shocked at how much they make(not that its a ton. But considering all the strikes I read about growing up, it was surprising. I guess all those strikes paid off). In a teacher's first year full time, theyre looking at around $47,000 straight out of college. And it goes up every year. By the time Im out, itll be around $50,000. And it goes up every year for the first 11 years you teach, regardless of how good(or bad) of a teacher you are. By your 11th year fulltime, you should be making in the vicinity of $72-75,000. If Im making $75,000 by the time Im 40 I will be more than content.

And if you become a principal or get in administration, according to the Alberta chart, as long as youve worked 11 years, you are making around $100,000 per year. I dont know what its like in the rest of the country. But in Alberta, teaching is a nicely paying job.

[FlamesKickAss]

i don't know if anyone has posted this or not, didnt read thread but Casino dealers are paid ridiculously low in this province.i was making just over minimun wage and raking in all this money for the owner and the province. Yes they get tips but that still doesnt make up for the low salary.

But I think all emergency personell dont get paid enough for the job that they do.

[Flames09]

Okay I have to comment on the whole teaching debate. I'm going to school to become a teacher my reason for doing that is I love kids, I love making a difference in peoples everyday lives, the money is good enough to live on and the summers off are an added bonus. When you look at a teachers overall salary over 12 months (or you can break it up into 10 months it's the same damn thing) they make a comfortable living and they have great benefits and a secure retirement. That can be said looking on the outside in, now what teachers make and what they do for society is another thing, they have great influence and are educating the future, so taking that into account they should be paid more because if their doing a great job then that means more great minds will be the make up of the future. You have to look at it in comparison to a ridiculous job like insurance companies in Calgary pay their receptionists $20-$25/per hour, and compared to a teachers salary that's ridiculous look at what a teacher does in a day and for the future and look at what the receptionist does. As of today heck a manager at Mcdonalds makes a great living but salary should be determined by skill/amount of school years/hours put in/ and contribution to society and the future.

[DementedReality]

...... salary should be determined by skill/amount of school years/hours put in/ and contribution to society and the future.

while i agree that teachers (and doctors and EMT and police/fire) all provide a huge contribution to society, only a teacher would say the above comment.

in the business world, salary is determined by how much profit you make the hand that is paying you. and while there is an enormous level of impact teachers provide, its rather impossible to measure the profits generated by the profession.

[RedHot25]

Social workers, by a landslide. (and all others who posted this)

Wow lots of love here ;)

The human services field could use some more $$, but it is a running joke that "you don't become a social worker/work in human services for the $$" which is true. This is not to make people in this field all noble etc, its just something that is generally acknowledged.

The problem comes in that if you do not have a gov't position - i.e. work in a school or hospital as the mainstays - you are not going to make big bucks, at all. And you need, I believe, a Master's degree most times to work there. Outside of those settings, a lot of people with say a Master's of Social Work are at what some with a BComm may be starting at...let's say ~$35 grand to $45 grand or so? Not saying that is the definitive salary, and not saying that a lot of BComm's start at, but keep in mind this a Master's of social work degree at that level.

My wife is a social worker with Children's Services, and though she is underpaid for what she does, it is not like she is paid a beggar's salary. It is still > $50,000/year, with an earnings potential of > $70,000.

See above. Unless you get a job in a school setting, hospital or potentially a gov't position (note moreso directly with the gov't, not a position with an agency funded partly or wholly by the gov't), you generally won't be making that type of coin.

Well Im not familar with the educational requirements for social workers in Alberta, but in California, a Masters (MSW) is required to work..and they get paid what you stated...50-70 K to begin with. Compared to a lot of professions which do NOT require master's degrees and furthur education after a Bachelor's degree, they don't get paid enough. For example, nurses with an Associates Degree here start at about 75,000. That's 3 years of school. The MSW is at least 5 years, if not 6 years. So it doesnt seem fair!

In Alberta, you must become registered to practice I believe. At the lowest education level, you must have a college diploma in social work I believe.

[Lurch]

I really don't get why people are constantly equating education required with what a person should earn. There could be an indirect link since more education required reduces the number of people willing to put in the time, but honestly, who cares what education is required.

As for overpaid, I vote for traders (not that I'm complaining, as my wife is on that gravy train!) Being paid to gamble with house money, and keeping a chunk of it when you win seems beyond ridiculous to me. It's pretty much equivalent to a geologist getting 10% of the profit when he finds a well using the company's resources. This certainly does not happen, yet a trader will feel perfectly justified telling you "I made the company this money, so I should get some of it".

[mykalberta]

Perhaps the differences in my experience rests with the type of businesses I've worked with. I've typically been involved with small-mid size companies where the IT department consists of 1/2 people. But a lot of what you say above is true - in one company I had to convince the President that we couldn't just fire the IT guy because he "didn't know what he does all day". or because "my email is always down".

In this organization the IT guy, who was great at his job, but bad at communicating, would be a source of frustration for the President. This was the type of boss for whom "no" was never an answer you should give him. And the IT guy couldn't figure that out.

That's just one example. Coincidently as I sit here today working away, I overheard one of my bosses ranting about the IT support he's received, and at the same time. Earlier I heard our IT guy basically tell one of the other guys here that he didn't have time to look into his problem until sometime "late this week". For someone on a deadline that's not a good answer.

Thinking about this out loud, I think the challenge is that in a small/medium sized business the IT guy is undermanaged. He's the only guy here that does this - he reports to a VP, but the VP has no clue about this stuff. So he pretty much is free to "run amuck". No one knows what he does, and the guy can't seem to communicate it either.

In a larger organization you have someone in place to manage the IT department as a whole, set standard and evaluate performance (I assume).

Smaller organization should always hire older IT persons, I am surprised your IT person doesnt re prioritize based on users title/position - I know alot of IT people dont like it, but thats hwo you keep your job.

In case its unclear, I dont believe IT persons (well me at least) are under paid.

MYK