"big hurt" to the Jays?? [Archive] - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

CaramonLS

11-15-2006, 07:57 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6177240

Rosenthal reports 23 million + an option (club) for the 3rd.

Now that is just a blatent overpayment for a 38 year old. Wow if this is true.

I agree with you tranny, pitching pitching and more pitching is the only thing that will win the division for the Jays.

JiriHrdina

11-15-2006, 08:01 PM

Yeah doesn't make a lot of sense unless they are going to just give up on pitching and just try to out mash teams - course that never works.

Flames in 07

11-15-2006, 08:06 PM

I think he made .5M base and 2M in bonus, hard to believe he's worth more than that.

Ranchlander

11-15-2006, 08:08 PM

I thought they already had a bomber who couldn't do anything else (glaus).

WCE

11-15-2006, 08:08 PM

If this deal goes through, I have to think that JP has given up hope on signing Vernon Wells to a new contract, will be shipped out for a pitcher.

Just a guess (if it is true).

socalwingfan

11-15-2006, 08:08 PM

Well I could care less about the Jays, but when will JP learn? He stills needs more pitching. As for the A's, losing Thomas would be a big blow but Billy must have another DH in mind.

I heard a rumor about Bonds and the A's if Thomas leaves.

Flickered Flame

11-15-2006, 08:10 PM

I heard a rumor about Bonds and the A's if Thomas leaves.

I have read that several times already this offseason as well.

JiriHrdina

11-15-2006, 08:16 PM

I have read that several times already this offseason as well.

Makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective.

CaramonLS

11-15-2006, 08:18 PM

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/article.jsp?content=20061115_212220_2784

Snet confirms the signing, but no cash yet.

Footscray

11-15-2006, 08:22 PM

Wow I hope some of those rumours about the dollars are off. I wonder what a contract of that size that means for chances of re-signing Wells.

Flickered Flame

11-15-2006, 08:25 PM

Makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective.

Yeah marketing wise it makes sense but he could destroy that club house. Thats one thing about Oakland, the clubhouse has generally been a positive atmosphere, not what Bonds would do to it.

JiriHrdina

11-15-2006, 08:27 PM

Hmmm. Thomas to the Jays reminds me of when Canseco signed with Toronto. Just seemed "weird". Can't picture it at all.

RedHot25

11-15-2006, 08:35 PM

It is weird - he must become the permanent DH then? I can't see him displacing Overbay from the field.

I'm not sure what to make of this signing. The Big Hurt had a pretty good year last year....but he's old, had been injured a fair bit in the past, etc.

As for the pitching - yes, we need more pitching. And yes, Jiri, outslugging generally does not work.

However, almost everyone and their dog is looking for pitching. Including teams such as the NY Yankees, who will spend any amount that it takes (whether they are good or not - e.g. j. wright, pavano, etc). So with the market price being extremely high for pitching...do you effectively go for even more hitting and hope for the best?

Also, maybe this means a downgrade or stay at the approx level elsewhere. I.e. maybe we let both Zaun and Molina walk...and put in a kid or a cheaper defensive option.

WCE - as for Wells being traded for pitching...that is an intriguing idea. I think that is what, if you traded him, you would have to focus on getting back. But, that said, do you use a 38 yr old as his (wells) replacement? Frank may survive the year, but...I don't know.

Footscray

11-15-2006, 08:42 PM

flames_1987

11-15-2006, 08:46 PM

I'm waiting to see what JP does and then critique at the end of the offseason.

Say what you want about this move, but that's looking like one sick lineup....In no real order:

Johnson/Cat
Overbay
Wells
Glaus
Thomas
Rios
Hill
Shortstop
Catcher

Flames in 07

11-15-2006, 10:08 PM

well they did need a DH with power, but at these dollars? Didn't Piazza have a decent year last year ... I was hoping they'd grab him.

They could use a middle infielder and a replacement for Lilly, I hope they have some bucks left.

Resolute 14

11-15-2006, 10:26 PM

Hmmm. Thomas to the Jays reminds me of when Canseco signed with Toronto. Just seemed "weird". Can't picture it at all.

Canseco turned out to be a great signing for the Jays though. Most important factor, however, was that it was a one year deal. Signing Thomas I have no problem with. Signing him for more than one year I have a huge problem with.

Of course, the residual effects of the Canseco signing was that after he nearly had a 40-40 season, he demanded $28 million over four years, which the Jays responded to by telling him to go take a hike. Roger Clemens then used that as his excuse to pull his "Other pitchers are making more money than me so I'm gonna whine and cry until I get paid more" stunt that saw him dealt to New York.

habernac

11-15-2006, 10:29 PM

please, no. I really do not like Thomas, never have. Spend the dough on pitching.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-15-2006, 10:42 PM

If this deal goes through, I have to think that JP has given up hope on signing Vernon Wells to a new contract, will be shipped out for a pitcher.

Just a guess (if it is true).

That was my first thought as well. If not, then I really wonder what JP is doing, especially given the amount of money rumoured in the Thomas deal.

Either way, the Jays need pitching...........badly.

Jiggy_12

11-15-2006, 10:44 PM

If he plays like he did last season, it'll help.

If he shows his age...terrible signing.

KTown

11-15-2006, 11:14 PM

Sylvanfan

11-15-2006, 11:20 PM

goodyear

11-16-2006, 02:57 AM

dear jp,

i think this is a good pick up. i look forward to having other talented and over compensated players on our team.

yours,

aj burnette & bj ryan

Caged Great

11-16-2006, 04:48 AM

There's 3 reasons to like this signing.

1) We have one of the better DH's in the League and any time you can add a guy who can hit 30 HR a season its all good.

2) This frees up Riccardi to trade wells (who is asking for Beltran type $$) for a good pitcher to replace Lilly (I'd say resign him, but he's looking for 10 mil per....)

3) This allows Adam Lind, who looked pretty good late last year to be able play the outfield instead of being a DH.

Plus we don't know how much $$ that Rogers is putting into the team. By ditching Molina, Zaun, Cattalanotto, and Speier, it gave Riccardi 12.5 Million to play with on top of the extra that rogers is putting in. If he resigns Zaun for 3 million with the signing of Thomas, they will have only put on 500K. Molina Cat and Speier are not coming back (Maybe Cat but he may cost too much)

There's still a lot of $ to go around. Don't worry about it.

Caged Great

11-16-2006, 04:51 AM

Also, Vincent Padilla and Randy Wolf have both been contacted by the Jays. If the both sign for 7 mil per, our rotation looks like this

Halladay
Burnett
Padilla
Wolf
Chacin
(Marcum if need be)

JiriHrdina

11-16-2006, 09:34 AM

Also, Vincent Padilla and Randy Wolf have both been contacted by the Jays. If the both sign for 7 mil per, our rotation looks like this

Halladay
Burnett
Padilla
Wolf
Chacin
(Marcum if need be)

Can someone tell me more about those guys - I don't know much about them. Are they good enough to slot in at the #3 and 4 spots in a rotation?

Sylvanfan

11-16-2006, 09:44 AM

Padilla is a pretty decent pitcher. Threw 200 innings for the Rangers last year and won 15 games posting a 4.5 ERA in a pretty hitter friendly stadium. He's 29 and a pretty hard throwing right hander. If he stays healthy and keeps his walks down he's pretty effective. Still 7 million for a guy like him tells you just how scarce pitching is.

Wolf is a left handed control type guy. Not sure if I'd want to give that much money to him as he doesn't have a track record for throwing a lot of innings and he's had some pretty high ERA's against the National League which isn't on par with the AL. But he's a left handed pitcher and anyone who's left handed with an 88 mile an hour fast ball and a curve ball will get a job in Baseball and be overpaid for it.

Caged Great

11-16-2006, 09:48 AM

Can someone tell me more about those guys - I don't know much about them. Are they good enough to slot in at the #3 and 4 spots in a rotation?

Randy Wolf used to be a good starter but has had some injury problems the last two years but has gone 10-4 over that time.

His career win loss record is 69-60 with a 4.21 ERA

Vincente Padilla won 15 games with the Rangers this year and has a career win loss record of 66-61 with a 4.06 ERA

Neither pitcher is going to amaze you with their stuff, but they will be decent pitchers.

By comparison Ted Lilly's record is 59-58 with a 4.60 ERA, so these guys are both better than him. Even if the Jays sign one of them, it will be an improvement. There's also other pitchers like Mulder that they could go after as well.

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 11:19 AM

Jays also showing intrest in Rod Barajas. Free Agent Texas Catcher, price tag is only around 3 million for this guy. Solid catcher, good enough defense to be an everyday catcher, and a pretty cheap option in todays market.

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 11:20 AM

They should be spending some of this money on getting Lilly back,

He's an excellent #3 or 4 pitcher in a rotation. The #3,4,5 guys must win you 13-15 games, and Lilly can get that.

Burnett and Halladay should be 18-20 game winners.

JP is a moron.

Please, Lilly has talked all year about wanting to go back to the west coast. Many Jay "anaylists" said that there was little chance the Jays would bring Lilly back. An excellent #3 pitcher? Pleeasseeeee

JiriHrdina

11-16-2006, 11:51 AM

Latest rumor on bluejayway is Wells and Dustin McGowan are going to the Red Sox for Jon Lester and Coco Crisp.

goodyear

11-16-2006, 11:54 AM

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 11:56 AM

Latest rumor on bluejayway is Wells and Dustin McGowan are going to the Red Sox for Jon Lester and Coco Crisp.

Ewwwww is the only response I have to that.

Dustin McGowan is first off not done as a major league pitcher, the guy is only 24 and still could be a valuable arm down the line. Second off, Vernon Wells is a franchise player. Gold glove CF with a heck of a bat.

Coco Crisp is an average CF. Lester could be a stud but if your giving up your franchise player to a divisional rival no less, the guy better be a sure stud in this league. I really don't see any weight to this rumour

JiriHrdina

11-16-2006, 11:58 AM

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 11:58 AM

why should they sign thomas instead of wells?

vernon wells along with doc is the franchise...fans can identify with these guys

wells is not even 30 yet and still has lots of baseball in him...forget the big hurt, sign the franchise...pay him beltran type money

Jiri's response says it all

Also, this move does not mean that Vernon is on his way out. The Jays needed a DH and they got one.

Sylvanfan

11-16-2006, 11:58 AM

Yeah, I don't know if Lester is enough of an upgrade on McGowan to take the down grade of Crisp. Problem is that only a handfull of teams can afford to give Wells the contract he'll demand. As a result the market for him is pretty limited, and the offers probably are just like this one. I think I'd almost prefer to keep Wells this year and than use the money the season after this to acquire another bat than take this offer.

Of course the Thomas thing isn't official yet is it?

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 12:00 PM

Jiri, bluejayway a little slow for you too today? Geussing there's a ton of traffic there today

JiriHrdina

11-16-2006, 12:01 PM

Jiri, bluejayway a little slow for you too today? Geussing there's a ton of traffic there today

Yeah, couldn't even get through much of the thread about the Wells rumor - gave up after a while.

Saint Troy

11-16-2006, 12:01 PM

Read Jeff Blair's blog on the G&M site, saying that some of Thomas' contract is based on plate appearances, good news. I like the signing, the DH position was soft last season, as for the Wells rumour noted by Jiri, yikes, JP would have a tough time selling Wells to a division rival to the fans, Wells is no Hinske.

CaramonLS

11-16-2006, 12:02 PM

Saint Troy

11-16-2006, 12:05 PM

Reason I don't like this deal:

Frank Thomas is old, and without certain "enhancements", when power goes, it goes FAST, especially in the more 1 dimensional power hitters, which Thomas is.

It is a massive risk IMO, especially for that type of money.

One dimensional? think so? he's a moneyball power hitter, sees alot of pitches and takes his walks, he also doesn't have alot of games on him due to his injuries the past few years, I think he is less of a risk than a Sheffield at this point.

habernac

11-16-2006, 12:12 PM

hopefully his locker room antics have died down. He was a known jackass in the White Sox dugout. If he lets his bat do the talking and STFU I'll be ok with him.

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 12:14 PM

Reason I don't like this deal:

Frank Thomas is old, and without certain "enhancements", when power goes, it goes FAST, especially in the more 1 dimensional power hitters, which Thomas is.

It is a massive risk IMO, especially for that type of money.

No doubt there is risk involved, just like there was in the moves last offeseason. But the pros to the whole deal is you get a guy that can hit 30-40 homers and also add the presence of a vetran who's played in those big games. (something the Jays haven't had for a long time)

The guy had a sick year batting in the A's lineup, now imagine him batting with guys like Wells, Glaus, Rios exc. around him.

flames_1987

11-16-2006, 12:15 PM

hopefully his locker room antics have died down. He was a known jackass in the White Sox dugout. If he lets his bat do the talking and STFU I'll be ok with him.

In his defense, he got rave reveiws from Athletic players, saying what a solid vetran infleunce he was in the clubhouse and how they had absolutley no problems with him. Hopefully he keeps on the same track

CaramonLS

11-16-2006, 12:16 PM

One dimensional? think so? he's a moneyball power hitter, sees alot of pitches and takes his walks, he also doesn't have alot of games on him due to his injuries the past few years, I think he is less of a risk than a Sheffield at this point.

One dimensional in terms of power, he doesn't hit a lot of doubles and his walks are a product of his power - not the product of an amazing batting eye such as Brian Giles or Jason Giambi. Not saying he doesn't have a decent batting eye, but it is declining with age right now. When the power goes, the walks will too, because he doesn't hit enough singles/doubles to keep up the average.

There is no doubt he is a moneyball player, and there is a lot to like in that.

I'd also disagree he is less of a risk than Sheffield, he is a different player in terms of his dimensions and what he does on a field. He isn't just a pure Homerun hitter like Thomas is, which makes him a much better candidate to have a greater longevity in this league.

Still, I wouldn't have advocated the Tigers doing what they did to get him, because they gave up a ton.

Saint Troy

11-16-2006, 12:17 PM

hopefully his locker room antics have died down. He was a known jackass in the White Sox dugout. If he lets his bat do the talking and STFU I'll be ok with him.

The only guy I ever remember calling out Thomas was Gullien, who is a wingnut, and a pretty strong personality in his own right. Thomas from all accounts was fantastic in the A's clubhouse last season, should be interesting as the Jays clubhouse was gong show-esque last year.

Saint Troy

11-16-2006, 12:23 PM

One dimensional in terms of power, he doesn't hit a lot of doubles and his walks are a product of his power - not the product of an amazing batting eye such as Brian Giles or Jason Giambi. Not saying he doesn't have a decent batting eye, but it is declining with age right now. When the power goes, the walks will too, because he doesn't hit enough singles/doubles to keep up the average.

There is no doubt he is a moneyball player, and there is a lot to like in that.

I'd also disagree he is less of a risk than Sheffield, he is a different player in terms of his dimensions and what he does on a field. He isn't just a pure Homerun hitter like Thomas is, which makes him a much better candidate to have a greater longevity in this league.

Still, I wouldn't have advocated the Tigers doing what they did to get him, because they gave up a ton.

I noticed you mentioned "enhancements" in your earlier post, not ever knowing for sure but, Thomas has never had that follow him, like Sheffield. Thomas was a two sport star at Auburn, and was always a giant dude, could have been a tight end in the NFL. So I don't think he'll have the "enhancement" deterioration that Sheffield is having.

KTown

11-16-2006, 12:25 PM

Please, Lilly has talked all year about wanting to go back to the west coast. Many Jay "anaylists" said that there was little chance the Jays would bring Lilly back. An excellent #3 pitcher? Pleeasseeeee

He's a good pitcher to use as #3 in the rotation, is he higher hell no.

The guy has the numbers to show he can pitch in the #3 spot. He would be our #4 however.

Pleaaaaaasssssssseeee, educate yourself prior to posting.

Is he asking for too much money, maybe, but he will make more than he made last year that's forsure.

KTown

11-16-2006, 12:26 PM

hopefully his locker room antics have died down. He was a known jackass in the White Sox dugout. If he lets his bat do the talking and STFU I'll be ok with him.

He'd playing for Gibbons, I smell another fight occuring.

habernac

11-16-2006, 12:33 PM

when the Cannons were still in town, I'd sit sometimes over by the oppoistion's "bullpen". I got into a dialogue with one of the relief pitchers, I asked him if the media's portrayal of Albert Belle was accurate. He said that Belle was a great teammate, Thomas was the weirdo in the clubhouse. Wouldn't associate with rookies, was a recluse, just wasn't a real team oriented guy.

Granted, this was 8 or 9 years ago so maybe Frank has grown up now.

Table 5

11-16-2006, 12:43 PM

man, i thought this guy retired like a decade ago. shows how much i know about baseball i guess.

CaramonLS

11-16-2006, 01:02 PM

I noticed you mentioned "enhancements" in your earlier post, not ever knowing for sure but, Thomas has never had that follow him, like Sheffield. Thomas was a two sport star at Auburn, and was always a giant dude, could have been a tight end in the NFL. So I don't think he'll have the "enhancement" deterioration that Sheffield is having.

I never said he was on enhancements, I said without enhancments, players normally drop through the floor at this age.

bluejays

11-16-2006, 01:54 PM

I think Thomas will be exclusively a DH for sure - probably a good chance that Wells gets swapped for a good pitcher now if that deal is over 6 million per. I am dreaming of them landing Dontrelle Willis for Wells as the Marlins are looking for a center fielder right now, with florida's payroll not likely though.

Funny you mention that. I was thinking the same thing for the past 2 seasons. At the end of the day, IMO, an Ace is more importance than a gold glove centre fielder.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-16-2006, 05:54 PM

So, is this official yet?

I heard on The Score today that it was a 2 year deal worth 18 million, plus an option on a 3rd year depending on plate appearances. They said the deal was dependant on a physical.

Looked around, but haven't seen anything officially official......I guess it won't be until after the physical. ESPN's site has him still unsigned.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-16-2006, 06:03 PM

Guess I answered my own question above, didn't I?? :)

The Blue Jays have reportedly reached a two-year agreement with free-agent slugger Frank Thomas. Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi didn't comment when reached by phone Thursday evening, but he did say a formal announcement could be coming as early as Friday.

An online report indicated that Toronto had indeed signed Thomas to a two-year deal worth $18 million that includes an option for 2009. According to the report, the 38-year-old slugger would make $10 million in 2007, $8 million in '08 and another $10 million in the option year. Ricciardi didn't comment on the figures. The contract is contingent on Thomas passing a physical.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061116&content_id=1742073&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

Flames in 07

11-16-2006, 06:21 PM

Yeah, put me in the camp of those who think Wells must be heading out of town. Wells is good enough that he can be traded for pitching that isn't on the free agency market, and the Jays likely feel that an outfield of Johnson, Catalonotto, Rios, and Lind can get the job done, especially if they have a power bat like Thomas to DH every day. Still it does seem like a bit of an odd move. Looks like the Jays should have been talking to the Tigers about Wells.

Well, we don't know what the BlueJays budget is right? So I'll hold out hope that they still have plenty of money for pitching ... not many pitchers out there though. They may be going at a premium.

Flames in 07

11-16-2006, 07:20 PM

Looks like they are negotiating with Rob Barajas as well. I guess Molina is gone ... probably a good thing.

Flames in 07

11-16-2006, 07:55 PM

just read in the toronto sun that they may be interested in Mark Mulder as well.

Gravitykillr

11-16-2006, 08:45 PM

flambers

11-17-2006, 11:25 AM

Is Catalonotto not a free agent himself? I thought I remember reading somewhere that he was. I'm thinking signing Thomas is just a push get Wells to sign on for a few more years, especially if they can get a guy like Mulder to sign as well.

Catalonotto is a free agent allong with both of the Catchers and Lilly and Spier. I would guess all of them are gone with the possible exception to Greg Zaun.

As for the signing, I really like it. Thomas had a great year last year if he can stay healthy this bat makes the Jays line-up quite dangerous.

As for Wells, in my opinion if he will not sign with the Jays in the off season JP has to trade the guy. He can not afford to lose him for nothing or a conditional pick i guess. I personally believe Wells will not sign and he will be traded. The trade will be similiar to the Shefield trade (i.e. Young pitchers and a player).

flambers

11-17-2006, 11:32 AM

why should they sign thomas instead of wells?

vernon wells along with doc is the franchise...fans can identify with these guys

wells is not even 30 yet and still has lots of baseball in him...forget the big hurt, sign the franchise...pay him beltran type money

Wells wants a massive contract...i.e. over 20 million a year for a bunch of years (IMO). Plus the rumours last season were he did not want to sign with the Jays and was looking to sign with a team closer to his home (Texas).

flambers

11-17-2006, 11:42 AM

As for his stats. Here is the link.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=1100&hubname=mlb

2006

Frank Thomas

Hit: 126
2B: 11
HR: 39
RBI: 114
AVG: 270

KTown

11-17-2006, 12:02 PM

This is sad

That's way too much to spend on a 38 year old.

Pagal4321

11-17-2006, 12:49 PM

Well the Thomas signing is VERY risky, but they need to be able to maintain that slugging presence in the middle of the order. I think it's WAY too much money, but then again, I'm not used to baseball contracts.

IMO, Wells is all but gone, he does not want to resign in Toronto and that's no secret. It would be great if he did sign an extension in Toronto because him and Doc are definately the faces of this franchise. I love the guy, but he is going to get traded during the season.

Jiggy_12

11-17-2006, 03:13 PM

IMO, Wells is all but gone, he does not want to resign in Toronto and that's no secret.

This is what I don't understand. I too have heard from people that he doesn't want to stay in Toronto...but where is the source for this? Where is this coming from?

Wells and JP have both denied this when asked about it.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-17-2006, 06:11 PM

The more I think of this signing, the more I like it......as long as he stays healthy.

Having a 2-6 order with guys like Rios, Wells, Thomas, Glaus and Overbay is pretty darn good. Massive upgrade in the DH spot over the combo of Hillenbrand/Zaun/Molina or whoever else was in that spot in any given night.

flambers

11-17-2006, 06:52 PM

This is what I don't understand. I too have heard from people that he doesn't want to stay in Toronto...but where is the source for this? Where is this coming from?

Wells and JP have both denied this when asked about it.

There is no source we all read the reports last season that said Wells will not re-sign with the Jays. Of course JP and Wells have denied all talk about it and they will until he is either traded or signed. Until then the rumours will continue.

IMO, if he does not sign this offseason he needs to be traded.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-17-2006, 06:55 PM

IMO, if he does not sign this offseason he needs to be traded.

Yep, the Jays can't afford to let a massive asset like him walk for nothing next year. Sign him now, or trade him in the very near future.

Would love to see him stay, but I think he's gone.

Jiggy_12

11-17-2006, 06:57 PM

IMO, if he does not sign this offseason he needs to be traded.

There's 2 ways of looking at it.

1) If he plays next season without a contract extension, he walks away and we lose him for nothing.

2) The Jays need to decide if next season is the season to make some noise. If it is, having Wells in the lineup is better than any alternative.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-17-2006, 08:58 PM

Well, it's 'officially' official.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061117&content_id=1742394&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

Flames in 07

11-19-2006, 12:53 PM

flambers

11-19-2006, 04:52 PM

One reason you don't shop wells now is that you have him in a contract year and if the team does well you have a gold glove CF who not only is playing for W's, but his next contract as well ... so you don't get "nothing" if he plays the entire year in TO.

If Wells goes into his final year without an extension the Jays will get nothing for him.......or to clarify a conditional pick IMO when he signs as a UFA .....

The Jays need to work hard to sign him in the offseason or trade the guy.

Flames in 07

11-19-2006, 09:30 PM

If Wells goes into his final year without an extension the Jays will get nothing for him.......or to clarify a conditional pick IMO when he signs as a UFA .....

The Jays need to work hard to sign him in the offseason or trade the guy.

Well, if by nothing you mean the best year in VWells career your right, the Jays get nothing.

If he doesn't sign, keep him and if at some point the Jays are out of it, then deal him away, but you don't just throw away a gold glover in a contact year ... espiecally if this turns out to be a playoff year.

flambers

11-20-2006, 06:39 AM

Well, if by nothing you mean the best year in VWells career your right, the Jays get nothing.

If he doesn't sign, keep him and if at some point the Jays are out of it, then deal him away, but you don't just throw away a gold glover in a contact year ... espiecally if this turns out to be a playoff year.

Clearly the return will be very low if they hold onto to the deadline. The other teams will not trade a large package deal for a pending UFA (IMO). To hold onto him and not sign him is a huge risk.

If the Jays do that and lose Wells JP should be fired.

Flames in 07

11-20-2006, 07:03 AM

no you won't get much, but the propect of having VWells on a team that is a playoff team is worth more than anything you can get right now.

flambers

11-20-2006, 10:00 AM

no you won't get much, but the propect of having VWells on a team that is a playoff team is worth more than anything you can get right now.

The Jays don't have the money to build like the Yankees they need to be careful. I don't think the Jays can afford to lose a star player to UFA status.

However, I am still hoping Wells will sign this winter.

Sylvanfan

11-20-2006, 10:55 AM

The Jays don't have the money to build like the Yankees they need to be careful. I don't think the Jays can afford to lose a star player to UFA status.

However, I am still hoping Wells will sign this winter.

The problem with a Wells trade is that there is a limited number of teams who will be interested in him due to what his salary will be. If the package from the Red Sox mentioned above is all you can get for Wells, than I almost think you keep him for the upcoming season and than use the 16 million you were planning to pay him to go out and look for a free agent, or to make trades to bring in a replacement.

Of course the downside is that Wells not having a contract for the next year leads to a lot of trade rumors, and distractions in the club house. Trading him for whatever you can get now doesn't always work either. Remember the Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi trade? Jays took a downgraded player who still had an albatross of a contract.

flambers

11-20-2006, 11:44 AM

The problem with a Wells trade is that there is a limited number of teams who will be interested in him due to what his salary will be. If the package from the Red Sox mentioned above is all you can get for Wells, than I almost think you keep him for the upcoming season and than use the 16 million you were planning to pay him to go out and look for a free agent, or to make trades to bring in a replacement.

Of course the downside is that Wells not having a contract for the next year leads to a lot of trade rumors, and distractions in the club house. Trading him for whatever you can get now doesn't always work either. Remember the Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi trade? Jays took a downgraded player who still had an albatross of a contract.

As for a trade with Wells, I believe there is allot more than a couple of teams that would be interested. As for the Green example that is the type of return the Jays can expect if they wait till the deadline of his final season IMO. I believe if a trade happened it would be similiar to the Shefield trade (i.e. some Pitching Blue Chippers and Roster player).

However it will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

Sylvanfan

11-20-2006, 11:54 AM

As for a trade with Wells, I believe there is allot more than a couple of teams that would be interested. As for the Green example that is the type of return the Jays can expect if they wait till the deadline of his final season IMO. I believe if a trade happened it would be similiar to the Shefield trade (i.e. some Pitching Blue Chippers and Roster player).

However it will be really interesting to see how this plays out.

Well the Green trade did happen one full season before Green became a free agent. It was pretty well known that Green wanted to go to the West coast where he was from. I also recall that he wanted to somewhere that the Jewish community was pretty prominent to or something like that as well. So that really limited Ash's trade options. He chose to trade him for right now help and got burned badly taking an obvious downgrade in Mondesi who still made a lot of money. If you can move Wells for some great prospects and than use the salary money saved to get your right now help, that probably is the better way to go. But I get the feeling that a lot of teams would like Wells, but theres only about 8 who can afford his potential salary demands, and than theres the possibility that he wants to only play in Texas or something like that. The teams who know they can get him will be well aware that they don't have to offer anything good in terms of right now help to the Jays to get Wells.

flames_1987

11-20-2006, 02:45 PM

The more I've had to rest on this move the more I like it. JD Drew just got 15 million a year, Soriano got about a billion dollar 8 year contract, and Nomar got 9. If thats the market right now, I don't see how 9 million for someone who was a potential MVP candidate this season is that bad at all.

The Jays still need more pitching, everybody knows that, however it's not like JP passed up strong arm after strong arm in the FA market to go get Thomas. There really are no standouts at all in terms of FA Pitchers this year, and the price tag on most of them is uber high because everyone is looking for pitching.

Thomas was the one that contacted the Jays, saying he wanted to play in Toronto. Thats defintley a big positive for the orginization to have someone of Frank's skill, seek out your team. There's a risk of course in bringing in a 38 year old, just like there was in bringing in BJ & AJ last year.

moon

11-24-2006, 12:32 PM

I am surprised so many people like th is signing for the Jays.

Thomas is old. He did have a great year last year but think it wasn't nearly as good as many made it out to be and certainly not MVP worthy like the media made it out to be.

I think he would be effective on a play-off calibre team, but for a team like the Jays I would think the money could be better spent on younger guys that could help in the future when the Jays could luck into the play-offs.

KootenayFlamesFan

11-24-2006, 12:56 PM

Thomas is old. He did have a great year last year but think it wasn't nearly as good as many made it out to be and certainly not MVP worthy like the media made it out to be.

I don't recall hearing one person saying he was an MVP candidate. Where did you hear that?

moon

11-24-2006, 01:06 PM

I don't recall hearing one person saying he was an MVP candidate. Where did you hear that?

Not that he should have won but that he was a top five guy from many people. Mainly on ESPN radio and I think from articles on that site as well.

socalwingfan

11-24-2006, 01:31 PM

I don't recall hearing one person saying he was an MVP candidate. Where did you hear that?

Thomas was 4th in MVP voting after Ortiz

KootenayFlamesFan

11-24-2006, 03:29 PM

Thomas was 4th in MVP voting after Ortiz

Yeah, I knew he got some votes, I just never heard anyone say he should be the MVP. I was always hearing Morneau, Ortiz, and mainly Jeter.

Iggy Snipe

11-28-2006, 03:34 PM

Thomas will be a great DH for the Jays. Last season, the Jays really didn't have a solid DH. Now the guys that belongin the field will play. Thomas knows his role and will be fine. I don't think he is worth the money is getting though, but that's the price you pay for a big name player.

Too bad Frank Catalanoto is gone. He was an awesome ball player. So consistant, great #2 hitter.