Something for Jays fans to look forward to

[Resolute 14]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=240920110

Second pitcher in all of professional baseball to win 20 games (and he did it in less starts than Schilling), and had an amazing debut against a Yankee team that just slaughtered the Red Sox - one night after winning the Eastern League Championship. First Jays affiliate to win a title since the big club in 1993.

[Jiggy_12]

Jays have so many great prospects coming along, its really going to be exciting. Rios, Adams, Bush, Quiroz, Chacin, and Arnold to name the best ones. Next year should be a good one...although I say that every year ;)

[Resolute 14]

Yup, and this is the one argument that the anti-JP crowd can't overcome. While Chacin was a pick from the Ash era, the focus on developing our prospects is turning massive results. Especially with four of six affiliates making the post season. A lot of our prospects will come to the majors with a lot of big game experience.

[CaramonLS]

2 Prospects I am really looking forward to are Brandon League and Dustin McGowen, those 2 are probably 1 year away, but they can throw absolute gas.

League has a 99 MPH Sinker.

That being said I hate JP Riccardi - I think his trades for the most part have been ######ed, same with his offseason acqusitions.

One of the few redeeming trades was Lilly for Kielty. Signing Bautista for 5 million per season over Escobar or someone else. Bautista is now in the bullpen after having a 7+ ERA in his last 10 starts - 1/10th of the Jays payroll right there.

His complete inability to deal Soon to be free agents.

a) Not being able to get rid of Lidle for anything, even a prospect would have been nice.

B) Not getting rid of Escobar if he wasn't going to resign by the deadline.

c) Not dealing Zaun when Florida was very interested in a package for him + Catalanto, considering both were impending FAs nothing was going to stop them from coming back. I know Cat resigned a nice fat extension just a week ago, but it would have been nice to see him resigned in the off season since he has played like 5 games since the trade deadline because of injuries. This trade probably would have netted us Hee Sop Choi - which would have been the answer to the HUGE 1st base problem we are going to have next year. Not to mention this guy has an incredible OBP (batting isn't there quite yet, but it will come).

d) Bad Bad Bad Bullpen. Signing Lightenberg over a much more vetern Releiver for a few hundred K more is very questionable (Quantrill, Gordan).

[Resolute 14]

a) Lidle wasnt worth anything. Nobody in last years playoff race was interested in a pending Free Agent with an ERA approaching 6.

B) I think the Jays hoped to re-sign Escobar, but he simply wanted too much money. Batista wasnt a bad choice as a replacement. Sadly, things didnt work so well.

c) I tend to agree, but stating "you can trade them then re-sign them as free agents afterward" is easier said than done.

d) Both Quantril and Gordon cost more, plus you are assuming that they would have wanted to come here in the first place. Lightenberg wasnt a bad signing, but fell into the curse the Jays seem to have befallen this year.

If you account for the loss of Halladay, our pitching isnt any worse than last year. Hopefully things can be better straightened out for 2005.

[CaramonLS]

Whether they play out the year or not you have pretty much the exact same chance of them resigning with you or somewhere else.

Honestly though Lightenberg @ 2.2 million vs. Quantrill @ 3 million.

So we are 800k or one Vinne Del La Santos less in the bullpen.

Suits me just fine, but I am almost 100% sure that JP didn't talk to Quantrill mostly because of the image it would have given Jays fans. As if fans needed anymore reason to hate the Quantrill/Izturas trade.

And yes... I don't care if they got a bag of balls for Lidle - he could have and should have been dealt, especially with the amazing start he got off to that year. (Not to mention the Reds think hes worth 5 million a season).

If you aren't going to ink an extension before the trade deadline, chances are you are going to walk and test the market ala Escobar.

Small market teams like Toronto cannot afford anyone who is worth something to walk, you just cannot do that on a small market payroll under any circumstances.

[JiriHrdina]

Back to the positives. Russ Adams - man - how impressive has this kid been. Last night he had key hits and great defense. He's shown a bit of pop too. I really like what this kid has shown so ar.

[Resolute 14]

Well, one thing everyone has to love about JP. He got wells signed long term.

That was one Un-Freaking-Believable catch he made to rob Arod of a home run. O_o

[Iggy=Flames4ever]

bah Blue jays..... GO EXPOS GO :)

[flambers]

I agree the Blue Jays prospects have played well. When Carlos leaves it will free a bunch of Salary to go and sign 2 or 3 quality players. This should help the Jays.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by flambers@Sep 22 2004, 03:00 AM
I agree the Blue Jays prospects have played well. When Carlos leaves it will free a bunch of Salary to go and sign 2 or 3 quality players. This should help the Jays.
I really hope that we can get some 20 Homer guys to fit in the lineup somehow, but our Pen needs to be rebuilt from the ground up (lefty anyone?).

But as it looks right now its going to go like this.

OF Rios
OF Johnson
OF Gross
CF Wells
1B?
C Quiroz or Cash (shudder)
3B Hinske
2B Hudson
SS Woodward or Adams (God I hate Woodward, please Adams don't let up).
DH Catalanato

Right now we are Set for the OF, probably the Strength of our team. We need One Solid Bat at 1B or Catcher, because we could move Cat to 1B from DH if needed.

Honestly I hate Cash. The guy is an NL catcher at best, that could be sandwiched beside a pitcher, but in the AL you need Solid bats from 1-9. Cash Cannot hit the ball off a tee and it doesn't look like hes going to touch .200 anytime soon.

Now for the "big bat" JP should grab? Well I think he should Grab Pyrzinski at Catcher (hes driven in 80 this year) and could hit protection for wells. (Salary this year was 5 million, so probably 6.5 per?)

Quiroz would be the backup Catcher and would get some platoon time at DH while being groomed into a decent player.

Not sure who we would grab as a DH/1B, but we need someone.

Another 5 mill probably needs to be delegated to Bullpen Help.

Not exactly sure how the "Delgado" Money is going to be spent, but after raises I think we are looking at about 14 million (Wells, Hinkse, Lilly) are getting some.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 21 2004, 11:25 PM
If you aren't going to ink an extension before the trade deadline, chances are you are going to walk and test the market ala Escobar.

Small market teams like Toronto cannot afford anyone who is worth something to walk, you just cannot do that on a small market payroll under any circumstances.
I'll tell you what, you tell me how many times a team has traded a player to a contender, then had him sign back as a UFA the next season. Like I said, easier said than done.

As for Quantrill, I agree that JP never talked to him, but not because of the "image" that it would present. JP doesnt care about image. If he did, he wouldnt have traded dead weight like Alex Gonzalez.

The trade you referred to was one where we got a pitching prospect for a middle reliever making too much money for a team that wasnt contending, and a shortstop who was projected by EVERYBODY to never be able to hit.

While the results ultimately sucked, the trade itself was a good one, especially given that JP was tasked to slash payroll.

As for next year, Rogers is raising payroll slightly to $53 million, and after all of the raises (you forgot about Halladay), the Jaya will have about $9 million to play with.

[CaramonLS]

It is easier said than done, but if a player goes to free agency LIKELY he doesn't like the money you are offering. If the Jays traded a player and they were the highest bidder, its damned likely X player is going to come back and play for the jays regardless of the logistics.

You see it happen with Glen Wesley for the canes IMO.

Also with regards to the Quantrill Trade JP went on the air numerous times saying that Izturas was the shortstop of the future for the Jays. Also with regards to trading Quantrill... his 3 million dollar Salary is not much compared to the trash we have had to deal with and dump.

Also you do NOT deal from a position of weakness I.E Shortstop AND middle relief.

Sorry that is just not how you manage a team - you just do NOT create holes in your team. Name 2 of the biggest problems in the last 2 years... Shortstop and Middle releif. Stupid stupid trade all around.. did he expect Woodward to be the new Shortstop?

[calculoso]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 24 2004, 08:07 PM
Also with regards to the Quantrill Trade JP went on the air numerous times saying that Izturas was the shortstop of the future for the Jays.
Funny.

Not that I don't believe that you heard this, but if this is true:

Why on earth was he playing second base with Felipe Lopez at short if Izturis was the shortstop of the future?

I call BS on the comment.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by calculoso+Sep 25 2004, 05:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Sep 25 2004, 05:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Sep 24 2004, 08:07 PM
Also with regards to the Quantrill Trade JP went on the air numerous times saying that Izturas was the shortstop of the future for the Jays.
Funny.

Not that I don't believe that you heard this, but if this is true:

Why on earth was he playing second base with Felipe Lopez at short if Izturis was the shortstop of the future?

I call BS on the comment. [/b][/quote]
I'm 110% serious he mentioned it on the Fan590 (before Izturas got traded).

You got your years wrong mate.

In 2001, Lopez took 3 Starts at Shortstop, 47 at 3rd base.
In 2001, Gonzalaz took 154 starts at Shortstop.
In 2001, Izturas took 6 starts at SS, 41 starts at 2B.

Izturas was then dealt that off season.

So the answer to your question is Gonzalaz was SS which is why he took all the reps - that should answer your question.

[calculoso]

Really? I could have sworn...

Am I thinking of Homer Bush then? I dunno.

[CaramonLS]

Bush was 2B, he took most of the Reps there.

Bautista was starting 3B, Delgado was 1B, Jeff Frye Platooned 2B and 3B.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/...hp?y=2001&t=TOR (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=2001&t=TOR)

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 25 2004, 02:07 AM
Also with regards to the Quantrill Trade JP went on the air numerous times saying that Izturas was the shortstop of the future for the Jays. Also with regards to trading Quantrill... his 3 million dollar Salary is not much compared to the trash we have had to deal with and dump.

Also you do NOT deal from a position of weakness I.E Shortstop AND middle relief.

Sorry that is just not how you manage a team - you just do NOT create holes in your team. Name 2 of the biggest problems in the last 2 years... Shortstop and Middle releif. Stupid stupid trade all around.. did he expect Woodward to be the new Shortstop?
Actually, it is starting pitching and third base that have been our biggest concerns over the past two years, not middle relief and shortsopt.

You also need to consider the situation at the time. JP was brought in and tasked to cut payroll as well as rebuild the team. He knew he couldnt try to buy his way into contention like Ash failed at, but that he needed to do it internally, like the A's did. JP came in and from day one said that the Jays were playing for the future. 2002-03-04 were all expected to be rebuilding years. Paying $3 million for a a middle reliever - even one as good as Quantril - on a team not expecting to contend is pointless. He was better off saving the money.

I do recall JP talking about Izturis as the shortstop of the future, but based on his philosophy, I never believed it for a second. Izturis was pegged by everyone as a no-hit, no-OBP shortstop. The comments were made to pump up Izturis' trade value, and given that he was still only a throw in, his value wasnt that high. Chris Woodward's offense was far, far more valuable than Izturis' defense, and that was known from day one. JP never expected Woodward to be the shortstop of the future. He was supposed to be a bridge between Gonzalez and Adams.

[CaramonLS]

Snake at least we had some consistancy in starting pitching with Halladay, Escobar (well kinda), Hendrikson, Carpenter (till injury), Loioza... It wasn't amazing but better than our middle releif... go over some of the names from the last 3 years its amazing how many of them are out of jobs in the major leagues.

But look at our middle relief over the last 3 years... good god.

How many middle releiver from last year alone do we have? We have Chulk... thats it, who played in 3 games for us.

The rest of the releivers are in the minors, because they can't even measure up to this current "crop" we have on the big club. Lopez and Kershner are down in AAA. Starting pitching... well at least they can hold their jobs for 2 years or longer.

FYI Look at Woodwards numbers before we traded Izturas... the guy was Kevin Cash Jr... he wasn't even hitting over .200, so I don't know how you can say Woody's offense was the reason we traded him.