The Memoirs Of Gen. Tommy Franks

[Cowperson]

Wish I could post a Times of London story on the memoirs of Gen. Tommy Franks as it gives more detail than this New York Times story below. The memoirs are to be released next week.

Among other things revealed by Franks:

The commander, Gen. Tommy R. Franks, also recounts that much of his certainty that his troops would face attacks by banned weapons — in particular biological or chemical arms — came from conversations with King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. The king cited "reliable intelligence sources," and Mr. Mubarak quoted conversations between his officials and Mr. Hussein.

From the Times of London story: "Shortly before the war, Franks visited Jordan's King Abdullah and President Hosni Mubarak of Eqypt. Both said they had been told by Saddam that he had WMD which he would use against the Americans."

The Army general who commanded the Iraq war writes in a new book that intelligence failures produced "a nasty surprise" by not spotting that Saddam Hussein had dispatched trucks and buses filled with a large paramilitary force to wage an insurgents' campaign shortly after the conflict began.

Franks indicates as well that a double agent named April Fool sold information to Saddam's spies which tricked the dictator into believing the real axis of attack from the Coalition would be coming from the north, via Turkey when it came from the opposite direction.

Franks also had little time for the civilians around him, describing USA Undersecretary of Defence Douglas Feith as "the dumbest . . . . guy on the planet."

Fodder for debate if nothing else.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/internat...bUCpRSCpdnu3Lgw (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/international/01FRAN.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1091379628-fSNwfkObUCpRSCpdnu3Lgw)

Cowperson

[transplant99]

The commander, Gen. Tommy R. Franks, also recounts that much of his certainty that his troops would face attacks by banned weapons — in particular biological or chemical arms — came from conversations with King Abdullah II of Jordan and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. The king cited "reliable intelligence sources," and Mr. Mubarak quoted conversations between his officials and Mr. Hussein.


yet some will STILL believe that US intelligence was manipulated to come to the same conclusion.

Apparently the entire world was in on the conspiracy to say that Hussein had WMD :blink:

[Fuzzy McGillicuddy]

Here's a link that goes into the April Fool story in more detail.

April Fool (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10313657%255E2703,00.html)

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Fuzzy McGillicuddy@Aug 1 2004, 05:26 PM
Here's a link that goes into the April Fool story in more detail.

April Fool (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10313657%255E2703,00.html)
Controversial comments:

Service chiefs who sniped at him were "self-serving ***holes"; and Douglas Feith, the cerebral Under-Secretary of Defence, is labelled "the dumbest f..king guy on the planet".

By contrast, General Franks describes his arch enemy, Osama bin Laden, as not just "a deadly adversary" but also "a worthy, bold commander of dedicated and capable forces".

Cowperson

[metallicat]

Originally posted by transplant99@Aug 1 2004, 05:24 PM
Apparently the entire world was in on the conspiracy to say that Hussein had WMD :blink:
Except the democrats post-war. Pre-war they were all over this, including Kerry.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by transplant99@Aug 1 2004, 05:24 PM
Apparently the entire world was in on the conspiracy to say that Hussein had WMD :blink:
Everyone except those darned UN Weapons inspectors who couldn't find then no matter where they looked.

:lol:

[transplant99]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Aug 2 2004, 09:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Aug 2 2004, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-transplant99@Aug 1 2004, 05:24 PM
Apparently the entire world was in on the conspiracy to say that Hussein had WMD :blink:
Everyone except those darned UN Weapons inspectors who couldn't find then no matter where they looked.

:lol: [/b][/quote]
Lanny....you have to understand by now that inspectors were never ALLOWED to look where they wanted WHEN they wanted, but only when Iraqi authorities allowed it.

I urge you to read this report by David Kay...you know the HEAD inspector in Iraq, as to why they didnt find anything.

Clearly he himself acknowledges that it was a futile effort at the best of times, and that in fact the WMD DID exist....just dont know where they are now. That is more scary than anything else...if they aint in Iraq...where are they?

Anyhow...read this report from the horses mouth and realize he wrote it when the inspection team was allowed back IN iraq and before the war began. Here is an example of what was going on.

How quickly the experience of the first attempt to disarm Iraq by international inspections has been forgotten. That attempt, starting in 1991, also began with weapons declarations filled with lies and misstatements. As a result, the UNSCOM team I led was also forced to search for a smoking gun. It is a nearly impossible task, which is why it should never be the standard of mission success. Only two smoking guns were found during all the UNSCOM inspections in Iraq in the 1990s. The first -- Iraq's nuclear weapons complex -- came quickly in the summer and autumn of 1991. We were going after very large physical complexes that had been designed to deceive spy satellites -- but whose purpose could be detected by inspectors armed with good intelligence and aided by key Iraqi defectors.

In the next six years of UNSCOM inspections only one other such discovery was made -- when the existence of an Iraqi biological weapons program was finally uncovered in 1995. But it is often forgotten that the weapons themselves were not found by the inspectors. Iraq told the inspectors that it had destroyed the biological munitions, which, it said, had been stored inside abandoned railroad tunnels and buried along the runways at two military airfields. Even the best inspectors have almost no chance of discovering hidden weapons sites such as these in a country the size of Iraq.


http://www.useu.be/Categories/GlobalAffair...kingGunKay.html (http://www.useu.be/Categories/GlobalAffairs/Iraq/Jan1903IraqSmokingGunKay.html)

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Then why are there none to be found now? Maybe Saddam was doing his best to capitulate to the demands of the UN, but we (in America) never got to see that side of the propaganda war. I think that Americans, and those that live in America, are very naive to think that the media in this country is not controlled a great deal by the government and that they let you see what they think you should see. The lessons have been learned from the past when it comes to media coverage of events. The government only allows the media to release images that they view as furthering their own cause. Disagree? Where are the horrors of war? Where are the bloodied and burned bodies? Where are the disfigured soldiers returning home? Where are the images of the collateral damage in these attacks? Where's the full story behind the motivations of what is really going on on boths sides of this battle? Wrong or right the media actively participates in propaganda war, just like the Middle Eastern media does there. Win the minds and you win the war. This is the forgotten aspect of the way wars are waged these days. We are all pawns in the game.

Something that has always bothered me is the fact that the coalition in Iraq has been small time countries that are doing their best to prevent themselves from getting crushed by the elephant, or trying to get in that elephant's good graces. Why did none of the other super-powers not support the decision to go into Iraq? If they were afraid of being found out as working around the embargos would it not have been better to have your own troops on the ground supporting the action and participate in the discovery? Would go a long way in defending your actions. By not participating you really paint yourself into a corner. I've never bought the "hiding" argument and always thought it was a lame excuse. The other superpowers decided that going into Iraq was wrong because the evidence just wasn't there. The US had other motivations IMO and used the War on Terror as an excuse. Even finding a single weapon of mass destruction would have bolstered their case, but they have come up completely empty. I think its time to admit that the WMD excuse was just that, an excuse and was a ruse to get into Iraq for selfish gains. What other possible explanation could there be? If this was the War on Terror there would have been better targets higher on the list (Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Syria, etc.). It's all a bunch of propaganda being waived in our faces to make us believe one thing while something happens behind our backs.

[Cowperson]

Maybe Saddam was doing his best to capitulate to the demands of the UN, but we (in America) never got to see that side of the propaganda war.

I guess 12 years wasn't enough time. Poor guy. Everyone today is "rush, rush, rush!!!" The pressure of being a dictator is too much!! No one understands!!

Even finding a single weapon of mass destruction would have bolstered their case, but they have come up completely empty.

I agree. Very embarrassing. So why not plant something and find it? If "they" can control tens of thousands of media people surely the minor matter of coming up with an authentic looking WMD argument - bury it in the sand somewhere and "find" it - can't be THAT taxing.

Good news Lanny. Today's government controlled mainstream media supports your theory of government duplicity with a story of an FBI agent claiming his attempts to alert superiors of a terror plot in the USA were met with stalling, faking of documents, etc. You may need to register to view the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/02/politics...stleblower.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/02/politics/02whistleblower.html)

Cowperson

[transplant99]

Then why are there none to be found now?


A. They were moved/sold to another country.

B. They are STILL hidden (as evidenced by Kay's very own words)

C. He was capitulating to the UN demands during the 4 years he refused weapons inspectors entry, and demolished them all. Of course that would of meant that he just had to prove to them he did that and he would STILL be in power, living the life of Riley in Billion dollar homes and controlling every aspect of Iraqi life.

Which of those (using common sense) do you honestly think makes the least sense Lanny?



As for the rest of your story....go ahead and believe what you like. Who is it exactly that "controls" the media? There are HUNDREDS of media sites based out of the USA on the internet...are they all controlled by some massive conspiracy as well?


Now back to Kay's report...how do you explain what he says? Or, is he too as an employee of the UN, all part of this conspiracy as well?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Aug 2 2004, 05:22 PM
Good news Lanny. Today's government controlled mainstream media supports your theory of government duplicity with a story of an FBI agent claiming his attempts to alert superiors of a terror plot in the USA were met with stalling, faking of documents, etc.
Noooooooooooo! Say it isn't so!!!!!!!! Someone coming out and telling something that has been revealed in dozens of books on the subject, including the one from the government's best spook about their problems with intelligence and using the information properly? Noooo! And saying the government's not telling the truth? The media not consistently reporting the short comings? Wow, that ones hard to believe. Obviously complete bullsh*t. After all, everyone is honest, everyone is out to tell nothing but the truth and watch out for the other guy's best interest, completely ignoring their own. Oh, and look, the sky is magenta! I must be visiting Cow's world.

:blink:

[transplant99]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Aug 2 2004, 01:22 PM
Maybe Saddam was doing his best to capitulate to the demands of the UN, but we (in America) never got to see that side of the propaganda war.

I guess 12 years wasn't enough time. Poor guy. Everyone today is "rush, rush, rush!!!" The pressure of being a dictator is too much!! No one understands!!

Even finding a single weapon of mass destruction would have bolstered their case, but they have come up completely empty.

I agree. Very embarrassing. So why not plant something and find it? If "they" can control tens of thousands of media people surely the minor matter of coming up with an authentic looking WMD argument - bury it in the sand somewhere and "find" it - can't be THAT taxing.

Good news Lanny. Today's government controlled mainstream media supports your theory of government duplicity with a story of an FBI agent claiming his attempts to alert superiors of a terror plot in the USA were met with stalling, faking of documents, etc. You may need to register to view the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/02/politics...stleblower.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/02/politics/02whistleblower.html)

Cowperson
Sounds like this guy is confirming completely what the 9/11 commission concluded.

Hmmm. Thought it wasnt worth the paper it was written on...according to some. :rolleyes:

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by transplant99@Aug 2 2004, 10:29 PM
Now back to Kay's report...how do you explain what he says? Or, is he too as an employee of the UN, all part of this conspiracy as well?
Kay makes some very good points, when you're talking about a small group of inspectors who were traveling from site to site using very little on the ground intelligence to find the weapons. They were working against the regime to try and root out the weapons. But that situation has changed. The Americans are now in control of the country (or so they like to tell us back here in the States) and have a large number of bodies on the ground. They have lots of intelligence capability and have had plenty of time to search for these nasty bugbears. And what has been the result? Goose-egg.

So what's the excuse now? The Iraqui regime can't be moving these things around. If they are the Americans (nee the coalition) are doing a terrible job policing the country and using the intelligence capabilities they have. Maybe the regime in control right now is moving the weapons around? Maybe they don't want the Americans to find them? Or maybe these weapons just no longer exist? May Sadam did comply and did destroy his WMD stock piles and programs? Maybe he was rightly afraid that the Americans would return and he didn't want to provoke them? Maybe he played the game the UN and the US wanted under the table, but kept the strong public persona so as to maintain face in the Middle East?

You talk about common sense. Okay, try using some. The UN had inspectors in the country and they came up empty. The US has had a large contingent on the ground searching for weapons since they "won the war", and they have come up empty. Now when you consider those two bodies came up empty in their search, is it a pretty good likelihood that maybe, just maybe, there aren't any WMD in Iraq? Isn't that a common sense approach to this question?

[transplant99]

The UN had inspectors in the country and they came up empty. The US has had a large contingent on the ground searching for weapons since they "won the war", and they have come up empty. Now when you consider those two bodies came up empty in their search, is it a pretty good likelihood that maybe, just maybe, there aren't any WMD in Iraq? Isn't that a common sense approach to this question?

Would make perfect sense except that he had them...we know that. He used them before...twice.

He outfitted his entire army with bio/chem warfare suits...why?

Just as an example of how difficult it is to find things BURIED in a desert....

About 8 months ago right beside a US military station outside Baghdad where soldiers and commanders alike has been walking on the sand for months, came one of those brutal sandstorms famous in the middle east.

When the dust settled some 3 or 4 days later, a member of the military was walking the same ground and saw something shiny sticking out of the sand...so they started digging...and continued for days.

What did they find? THIRTY Mig-25 aircraft....that had been right there under their noses all along. How friggin much space do 30 fighters take up? A ton. Yet somehow, guys NOT trained (unlike weapons inspectors who couldnt find anything for 4 years before getting turfed) should be turning this stuff up daily like there is a sign flashing that says "WMD here...get your WMD here"???

Buried Migs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3116259.stm)
And the last line from that BBC report?

It is thought Saddam Hussein believed the ageing aircraft would be no match for American firepower, and sought to conceal them instead.

Key word...CONCEAL.

This stuff can be stored in viles/jars/drums....and a thousand other things. Doesnt mean its still there...it means it could be and we already know that it once WAS there...even Hussein admits it in his declaration of December 02. So where in the hell is it? THATS the really scary question in my mind now.

Re-read Kays report...there are GLARING holes in the accountability of what was admitted to of been produced and what was accounted for in destruction...along with all that (Mr accountability himself)Hussein DIDNT declare.,

Here is a picture of ONE jet of the THIRTY...and you dont think with months and months of notice...Hussein couldnt of had his military hide the WMD???

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/aug2003/index/ii080603j2.jpg

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Aug 2 2004, 10:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Aug 2 2004, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Aug 2 2004, 05:22 PM
Good news Lanny. Today's government controlled mainstream media supports your theory of government duplicity with a story of an FBI agent claiming his attempts to alert superiors of a terror plot in the USA were met with stalling, faking of documents, etc.
Noooooooooooo! Say it isn't so!!!!!!!! Someone coming out and telling something that has been revealed in dozens of books on the subject, including the one from the government's best spook about their problems with intelligence and using the information properly? Noooo! And saying the government's not telling the truth? The media not consistently reporting the short comings? Wow, that ones hard to believe. Obviously complete bullsh*t. After all, everyone is honest, everyone is out to tell nothing but the truth and watch out for the other guy's best interest, completely ignoring their own. Oh, and look, the sky is magenta! I must be visiting Cow's world.

:blink: [/b][/quote]
Geez. You're right.

That must have slipped by me when I forgot to renew my Michigan Milita membership when I moved to my log cabin on a hill in Idaho. :rolleyes:

But, when we slip, we can always rely on yourself to fill in the blanks on the goings on of "Those Out To Get Us" because goodness knows no one else is out there lifting a finger.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by transplant99@Aug 2 2004, 10:58 PM
Here is a picture of ONE jet of the THIRTY...and you dont think with months and months of notice...Hussein couldnt of had his military hide the WMD???

Sure he could have. But you don't think that with the changes in Iraq that someone would have leaked where the stuff was buried? All it would take is one guy to cough up a location and the US has the justification they have been searching for. You don't think that one person who was involved in burying the WMD would give up a location? What is the benefit at this point to not give up that information? I'm sure that the Americans would be more than greatful and would reward that individual handsomely. No? It just doesn't make sense that someone wouldn't come clean and cough up the location of one of these clandestine burial sites.