Bonds and Ichiro

[Jiggy_12]

Click here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1883621)
Fun article on ESPN comparing and contrasting the two batting leaders in their respective leagues. Here is my favorite stat:

And, as loyal reader (and math professor) Nick Ormes suspected, Ichiro is on pace to get 701 official at-bats, the most ever by a modern batting champ. Bonds, on the other hand, is on pace to finish with 375 official at-bats, the fewest ever by a modern batting champ (at least in non-strike years).

[Sylvanfan]

These two are at completely different ends of the spectrum when it comes to hitting style, yet it appears that each will win the batting title in his respective league.
Walking a guy like Ichiro is just as bad as pitching to him because you're likely putting the leadoff guy on base, and he's always a threat to steal. He doesn't hit for much power, so giving him hittable pitches usually won't result in more than a single. Still you don't have to be precise pitching to Ichiro because he'll swing at anything, and just wants to put the ball in play.
Bonds on the other hand goes up to the plate looking to hit the ball 800 feet. Pitching to Bonds with guys on base is like playing Russian roulette with 4 bullets in the barrel. The ironic thing is that the National League used to be the league where they played little ball and the American league was the slugger league. Ichiro seems more like a national league player to me, and Bonds this year has been more like an American league hitter.

[Lurch]

Comparing Ichiro and Bonds is plain silly. One is an excellent hitter and good leadoff guy. Another has people contemplating changes to the rules wrt intential walks.

Bonds is on base over 60% of the time, and is the best power hitter in the game. Ichiro is on base around 40% of the time, and is a good baserunner. I don't know why people obsess over batting percentage when on base percentage is so much more relevant. The game works just the same if you walk as if you hit a single.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by Lurch@Sep 17 2004, 04:39 PM
The game works just the same if you walk as if you hit a single.
Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

[Resolute 14]

The flip side, of course, is that since Suzuki isnt likely to hit for any power, you have a good chance at groud balls getting the lead runners out. The ever popular fielders choice.

One of the interesting things about Suzuki this year is that his OPS with RISP has dropped nearly 100 points compared to his three year average of 2001-03. While his average is way up, his hits just arent as valuable this year.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Sep 17 2004, 11:41 PM
The flip side, of course, is that since Suzuki isnt likely to hit for any power, you have a good chance at groud balls getting the lead runners out. The ever popular fielders choice.

One of the interesting things about Suzuki this year is that his OPS with RISP has dropped nearly 100 points compared to his three year average of 2001-03. While his average is way up, his hits just arent as valuable this year.
If the number 9 hitter for the Mariners could get on base, you might have a point :)

[Resolute 14]

Doesnt matter. The point is, when Suzuki has opportunities to drive runners in, he isnt doing as well as he did in past seasons. Not really a knock against him, as he still has an OPS of about .890 with runners in scoring position, but just an observation.

[Lurch]

Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

I might agree with your point if you can tell me the last time someone pitched to Bonds with someone on second or third where a single might score a runner.

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by Lurch@Sep 21 2004, 04:38 PM
Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

I might agree with your point if you can tell me the last time someone pitched to Bonds with someone on second or third where a single might score a runner.
One other thing to consider is that a large amount of Ichiro's hits are so feeble that they are not really base hits, he just beats them out. I rarely watch the M's play, but I am sure some of these hits do not even advance the runners if they are not in a force play scenario, and they would rarely score a guy from second. In that way, his hits are not much different than a walk.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by Lurch@Sep 21 2004, 10:38 AM
Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

I might agree with your point if you can tell me the last time someone pitched to Bonds with someone on second or third where a single might score a runner.
Umm..happens about once a game. Bases loaded, runners on 1st and 2nd. Anytime where there isnt room to walk him...duh.

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by Fuel+Sep 21 2004, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fuel @ Sep 21 2004, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lurch@Sep 21 2004, 10:38 AM
Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

I might agree with your point if you can tell me the last time someone pitched to Bonds with someone on second or third where a single might score a runner.
Umm..happens about once a game. Bases loaded, runners on 1st and 2nd. Anytime where there isnt room to walk him...duh. [/b][/quote]
Bonds often gets walked with men on first and second. He has even been intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by nfotiu+Sep 21 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nfotiu @ Sep 21 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Fuel@Sep 21 2004, 04:54 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Lurch@Sep 21 2004, 10:38 AM
Oh Really? Even with runners in scoring position? You see, a single is much more valuable in terms of cashing in runs than a walk would be. It also can advance a runner from 2nd base over to 3rd, therefore setting up the ever popular sacrifice fly.

I might agree with your point if you can tell me the last time someone pitched to Bonds with someone on second or third where a single might score a runner.
Umm..happens about once a game. Bases loaded, runners on 1st and 2nd. Anytime where there isnt room to walk him...duh.
Bonds often gets walked with men on first and second. He has even been intentionally walked with the bases loaded. [/b][/quote]
I'm well aware. But more often than not he gets pitched to in that situation. I was asked to provide an example of a time that happens, so I gave one.

[Resolute 14]

With RISP, bonds has 66ABs and 132 BB's

With runners on and first base open, Bonds has been pitched to 22 times, and walked 76 times.

With runners at 1st and 2nd, he has hit 31 times and been walked 19.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Sep 21 2004, 11:37 AM

With runners at 1st and 2nd, he has hit 31 times and been walked 19.
lol, thanks for those stats Snakeeye

So there you go lurch, instead of 1 time, you have 31

[albertGQ]

Bonds often gets walked with men on first and second. He has even been intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

He can't be intentionally walked if the bases are loaded. They have to pitch to him. You can only intentionally walk someone if first base is open

They can "intentionally" walk him without it being an intentional walk, but then they risk a wild pitch or a pass ball

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by albertGQ@Sep 21 2004, 09:14 PM
Bonds often gets walked with men on first and second. He has even been intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

He can't be intentionally walked if the bases are loaded. They have to pitch to him. You can only intentionally walk someone if first base is open

They can "intentionally" walk him without it being an intentional walk, but then they risk a wild pitch or a pass ball
What are you talking about?

[Jiggy_12]

Originally posted by albertGQ@Sep 21 2004, 03:14 PM
Bonds often gets walked with men on first and second. He has even been intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

He can't be intentionally walked if the bases are loaded. They have to pitch to him. You can only intentionally walk someone if first base is open

They can "intentionally" walk him without it being an intentional walk, but then they risk a wild pitch or a pass ball
You can intentionally walk anyone you want to. Watched and played alot of ball over my life, definatley seen it happen numerous times

[Resolute 14]

Yup. You can intentionally walk anyone at any time. The downside to intentionally walking someone with the bases loaded is that you force in a run.

In Bonds' case, it happened during his 73HR season. With the team facing the Giants up by two, they walked Bonds intentionally to force in one run, but got the player behind him to end the inning.

Only three players have ever been inentionally walked with the bases loaded: Bonds, Babe Ruth, and a third player I am not sure of. I want to say Jimmy Foxx though.