Jack Eichel Surgery And Comeback Thread

[Macman]

Since we had so much interest in acquiring Jack Eichel why not another thread to watch his comeback.

On TSN Insider Trading tonight they said that Eichel was getting his surgery this Friday (tomorrow) and that it will only be about 3-4 hour procedure and that Jack will actually walk out of the operating room, basically day surgery if I understood that correctly.

They said he could be back playing in about 4 months or so which is kind of surprising to me. We'll have to wait and see how his recovery will go and then game action.

[Wastedyouth]

Can we not?

[GioforPM]

No more threads about players who are not Calgary Flames please. ENG and maybe Ovie count can stay.

[Macman]

Are you not interested how it will all play out after all the discussion we had on here? I was in the don't trade for Eichel opinion so we'll see how it all plays out. Plus we'll see him lots as he's in our division.

[GioforPM]

Are you not interested how it will all play out after all the discussion we had on here? I was in the don't trade for Eichel opinion so we'll see how it all plays out. Plus we'll see him lots as he's in our division.

Nope, not really. I don’t follow players who are traded away, not even Gio, despite the name. I don’t care about Kadri, ROR, Stone or any other “almost” Flames.

[Poe969]

This thread is like finding out your wife is cheating on you and that you were actually adopted...and that your wife is wife is actually your cousin.

Sad and confusing, but mostly sad.

[Macman]

Except some people think Jack Eichel is a star player so that's another reason to see how it all unwinds. Maybe the Flames will end up looking good for not trading for him.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The reality is that we don't know how close the Flames were. Folks like Friedman seem to suggest it wasn't really close.
But it's still an interesting storyline. As a Flames fan I was disappointed they didn't land him. As a hockey fan I hope his neck surgery goes well and he can return to being the player he is. And I'll certainly be rooting for him and Vegas over McDerp and the Derps up north.

[OutOfTheCube]

There’s really nothing interesting to hear about or discuss until late February / March when he’s supposed to come back.

[ResAlien]

Not overly concerned with a Vegas player no. I’m sure there will be tweets when he’s close to returning in three to four months.

[robertsfan]

Are you not interested how it will all play out after all the discussion we had on here? I was in the don't trade for Eichel opinion so we'll see how it all plays out. Plus we'll see him lots as he's in our division.

Kind of a dck move actually.

[lazypucker]

Are you not interested how it will all play out after all the discussion we had on here? I was in the don't trade for Eichel opinion so we'll see how it all plays out. Plus we'll see him lots as he's in our division.

Once it was announced that the Flames didn't get Eichel, I lost all interest about him. Unless the operation couldn't fix his injury and Eichel can't pick up a hockey stick again (I don't actually wish that on him), maybe I will then be interested to know about it and laugh at Vegas...

[ClubFlames]

Can we start a thread for Taylor Hall, Mark Stone, and every other significant player we were reportedly close to acquiring?:rolleyes:

I don't get the obsession with studying threads for ex-players/rumored trade chips.

[dino7c]

Thing is with this one people can pound their chest but nobody knows and it will be years before we can make a call if it would have been good or bad

5x10M is a lot of money, guy better be a player for them. He could be a top player in the league and he could be Lindros in TO

[blender]

I'm not particularly interested in this thread, but the amount of people that are against it is a bit of a surprise. It's just another topic to discuss, if you want, or not.

No need to be aggravated by it.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Is there a way to stream the surgery? Or at least get live updates?

[powderjunkie]

If someone is not interested in this thread, is there any action...or perhaps inacation...that they can take to make it go away?

[Roof-Daddy]

#### me.

I want to not think about Jack Eichel ever again for the rest of my goddamn life.

As a hockey fan I know that can't happen, but it'd be nice not to have to think about him until he's back and curb stomping he Flames multiple times per season now that he's on a division rival team.

[Johnny Makarov]

Lets make this an Erkel thread instead.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Steve_Urkel.jpg

[Strange Brew]

If someone is not interested in this thread, is there any action...or perhaps inacation...that they can take to make it go away?

It seems there is only one possible course of action for many. You come into the thread with very clear and descriptive title in the subject and tell everyone how you don't want to talk about it.

There's obviously not going to be much news on that topic for a while unless God forbid the surgery is a disaster. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

But it will be interesting to reflect back on. As Jiri states, some like Friedman have reported the Flames weren't that close. But they were definitely interested. And if they weren't close, it is by choice really because while the Sabres may have coveted certain players from Vegas, it's not like that offer was unbeatable. You could have offered more if you wanted him bad enough. To be seen if that would have been the right call.

[Snuffleupagus]

It seems there is only one possible course of action for many. You come into the thread with very clear and descriptive title in the subject and tell everyone how you don't want to talk about it.

There's obviously not going to be much news on that topic for a while unless God forbid the surgery is a disaster. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

But it will be interesting to reflect back on. As Jiri states, some like Friedman have reported the Flames weren't that close. But they were definitely interested. And if they weren't close, it is by choice really because while the Sabres may have coveted certain players from Vegas, it's not like that offer was unbeatable. You could have offered more if you wanted him bad enough. To be seen if that would have been the right call.
Seeing what Buffalo got if the Flames weren't close Treliving should just step down now, they got Krebs who doesn't look any better than Dube at the NHL level(at least Dube has an NHL shot), A broken power forward and a middle 1st for Eichel and a 3rd.

Ridiculous we couldn't put a deal together to beat that "junk" for Eichel.

Prediction: By this time next season even the most supportive Treliving fans will want him gone because of this.

[Goriders]

Why doesn’t some just start an eichel fan club?

[GioforPM]

Seeing what Buffalo got if the Flames weren't close Treliving should just step down now, they got Krebs who doesn't look any better than Dube at the NHL level(at least Dube has an NHL shot), A broken power forward and a middle 1st for Eichel and a 3rd.

Ridiculous we couldn't put a deal together to beat that "junk" for Eichel.

Prediction: By this time next season even the most supportive Treliving fans will want him gone because of this.

One more time: This isn’t a contest where an independent judge decides which offer is better. Buffalo simply wanted Krebs more than any Calgary prospect, like it or not, and likely wanted Tuch more than any roster player Calgary could offer due to his contract status and desire to play there. You can’t force a yes from Buffalo no matter how much you tell them Krebs isn’t as good as they think.

There’s a pretty good chance they didn’t want Tkachuk or Monahan even if they were offered, for reasons which have been set out many times.

I think it quite likely Treliving made an offer we would all consider “better”.

[Shazam]

Why doesn’t some just start an eichel fan club?

The No EichelS club?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Seeing what Buffalo got if the Flames weren't close Treliving should just step down now, they got Krebs who doesn't look any better than Dube at the NHL level(at least Dube has an NHL shot), A broken power forward and a middle 1st for Eichel and a 3rd.

Ridiculous we couldn't put a deal together to beat that "junk" for Eichel.

Prediction: By this time next season even the most supportive Treliving fans will want him gone because of this.

Biased post is biased.
Krebs is a quality prospect. Full stop.
He tracks to be a better NHLer than Dube.
History will tell but when you label their package as "junk" it is designed to suggest somehow Tree screwed up.

I stated several times along the way that if Krebs was put on the table that it would like be over. So this isn't revisionist history by me.

[Knightslayer]

Seeing what Buffalo got if the Flames weren't close Treliving should just step down now, they got Krebs who doesn't look any better than Dube at the NHL level(at least Dube has an NHL shot), A broken power forward and a middle 1st for Eichel and a 3rd.

Ridiculous we couldn't put a deal together to beat that "junk" for Eichel.

Prediction: By this time next season even the most supportive Treliving fans will want him gone because of this.

Should the 30 other GMs who couldn't beat Vegas's offer step down as well?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Should the 30 other GMs who couldn't beat Vegas's offer step down as well?

Not offer. "Junk".

[Strange Brew]

Biased post is biased.
Krebs is a quality prospect. Full stop.
He tracks to be a better NHLer than Dube.
History will tell but when you label their package as "junk" it is designed to suggest somehow Tree screwed up.

I stated several times along the way that if Krebs was put on the table that it would like be over. So this isn't revisionist history by me.

I agree with you that Krebs is a quality prospect and probably ranked higher than Dube by those around the league.

But I do think the Vegas offer could have been topped if you're hell bent on Eichel. Maybe Mangiapane? Or maybe add another first to the mix.

The Flames offered what they did. As you say, history will tell if that was the right decision. Personally I'm a little skeptical. The Flames biggest problem, and its repeated by many on here is what when they lose, their best players (Tkachuk, Gaudreau. Lindholm) were not as good as the other team's best players.

[Shazam]

Should the 30 other GMs who couldn't beat Vegas's offer step down as well?

Yes, except for Holland.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I agree with you that Krebs is a quality prospect and probably ranked higher than Dube by those around the league.

But I do think the Vegas offer could have been topped if you're hell bent on Eichel. Maybe Mangiapane? Or maybe add another first to the mix.

The Flames offered what they did. As you say, history will tell if that was the right decision. Personally I'm a little skeptical. The Flames biggest problem, and its repeated by many on here is what when they lose, their best players (Tkachuk, Gaudreau. Lindholm) were not as good as the other team's best players.

We'll never know and we'll never be able to fully evaluate because we don't know what they offered.
Part of the reason why Krebs was important to Buffalo is because he projects to be a centre in the NHL. If that was important to the Sabres, the Flames had little to offer. I'm not sure if Zary projects to be a centre or winger at the NHL level.

But I think the fan perception that "offers can be beat" by throwing in more stuff is fundamentally flawed.

[Buff]

Seeing what Buffalo got if the Flames weren't close Treliving should just step down now, they got Krebs who doesn't look any better than Dube at the NHL level(at least Dube has an NHL shot), A broken power forward and a middle 1st for Eichel and a 3rd.

Ridiculous we couldn't put a deal together to beat that "junk" for Eichel.

Prediction: By this time next season even the most supportive Treliving fans will want him gone because of this.

So you're saying that 23 year old Dillon Dube and his experience of 134 NHL games and 56 AHL games looks better in the NHL than 20 year old Payton Krebs and his experience of 13 NHL games and 9 AHL games?

[robertsfanatic]

We'll never know and we'll never be able to fully evaluate because we don't know what they offered.
Part of the reason why Krebs was important to Buffalo is because he projects to be a centre in the NHL. If that was important to the Sabres, the Flames had little to offer. I'm not sure if Zary projects to be a centre or winger at the NHL level.

But I think the fan perception that "offers can be beat" by throwing in more stuff is fundamentally flawed.

exactly this.

also, at what point would it have been TOO much for Eichel? we could have added multiple 1sts and prospects and players but should the Flames have? it would have been a pyrrhic victory

[devo22]

it's easy for us to say "we could have beaten that by offering x". Truth is, we simply don't know what the focus was for Buffalo and how they evaluate the various pieces. Krebs is a fine prospect and Tuch has a decent contract, so I get why that's enticing to Buffalo. I'm still convinced they could have got quite a bit more in the summer, but Krebs+Tuch+1st is not "junk".

[CSharp]

He's never gonna be a Flames. So, who cares.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Since we had so much interest in acquiring Jack Eichel why not another thread to watch his comeback.




https://c.tenor.com/jGgmfDOxmuMAAAAC/ryan-reynolds-but-why.gif

[N-E-B]

Nobody cares about Eichel anymore. The trade is done. We didn’t get him. Let’s focus on the future.

[FanIn80]

Why on Earth would any Flames fan now care about the recovery of yet another generational talent on another rival team in our division? Even the "are we getting him" stuff had already progressed to whatever comes after the dead horse beating stage. Zero interest in what happens to him now.

Besides, you just need to wait until the off season SNET documentary for all the juicy details about his recovery.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I'll be keen to watch and talk about Eichel once he's back and we see what he really is.
But at this point after wasting the whole summer on it, I'm happy to leave this topic for 3-4 months.
(leaving the room)

[Macman]

Should Pierre Lebrun and Darren Dreger also not be talking about it then? It's really no different than other stories about the NHL that get posted here. Yeah I get there's been a lot of threads about Jack here but this is post trade.

I also don't think Eichel was really interested in playing here of all places. The Flames do play the Knights in March so it's possible he could be back in action by then.

[dissentowner]

I will be honest, I want his surgery to be a success and him to have a pain free life but I hope his hockey career takes a giant nosedive. I hate Vegas.

[Buff]

Nobody cares about Eichel anymore. The trade is done. We didn’t get him. Let’s focus on the future.

Glad we have you to speak for everybody. :rolleyes:

Why on Earth would any Flames fan now care about the recovery of yet another generational talent on another rival team in our division? Even the "are we getting him" stuff had already progressed to whatever comes after the dead horse beating stage. Zero interest in what happens to him now.

Besides, you just need to wait until the off season SNET documentary for all the juicy details about his recovery.

Why would Flames fans care about anything related to hockey? I mean we're all Flames fans and only Flames fans. Forget about hockey. Who cares about hockey? It isn't the Flames.

[DazzlinDino]

Should Pierre Lebrun and Darren Dreger also not be talking about it then? It's really no different than other stories about the NHL that get posted here. Yeah I get there's been a lot of threads about Jack here but this is post trade.

I also don't think Eichel was really interested in playing here of all places. The Flames do play the Knights in March so it's possible he could be back in action by then.

Are the 2 people you mentioned Flames fans?.., Well, that might explain why the topic doesn't bother them? What do you think? To be honest, when you posted the OP I thought maybe you were an oiler. It seemed like the type of thread that might rub some the wrong way. Then when they did post their disproval you defended the idea.

Also if you don't think Eichel was interested in playing for the Flames why start a thread gauging Flames fan interest in him? Do you have sources or is this just your opinion. Are you personally interested in following his progress and now surprised others might not be?

Common sense tells us most fans are probably disappointed and want to move on so ultimately what makes you think this would be a good discusion?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Surgery is done. Expected to make a full recovery.

[N-E-B]

Glad we have you to speak for everybody. :rolleyes:



Why would Flames fans care about anything related to hockey? I mean we're all Flames fans and only Flames fans. Forget about hockey. Who cares about hockey? It isn't the Flames.

It’s weird to care enough about Eichel’s surgery and recovery that you think an entire thread to discuss it is necessary.

OP also mentioned all the recent Eichel talk, which IMO is now irrelevant that the trade is done.

[Johnny Makarov]

It’s weird to care enough about Eichel’s surgery and recovery that you think an entire thread to discuss it is necessary.

OP also mentioned all the recent Eichel talk, which IMO is now irrelevant that the trade is done.

Maybe he'll lose $10 mil in a month on high limit Baccarat and demand a trade out of Vegas?

[AT77]

Not trading for Eichel will haunt us forever.

Mark my words, he will be a bonafide #1C and a 100 point + player once healthy next season. Top 5 in prime center in the league along with McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, and Draisatil.

[2macinnis2]

The more time has gone by and the more I’ve had time to consider the hockey side (underwhelming trade return) and medical side (potentially significant pathology), the more I lean that spine surgeons around the league had some consensus that Eichel likely does not have a long injury-free career ahead of him.

There are 31 teams that could have used the guy, and I’d be surprised if surgeons from the vast majority of those teams didn’t weigh in.

Happy to discuss further from the medical (cervical spine) side, that is if anyone is interested…

[Strange Brew]

We'll never know and we'll never be able to fully evaluate because we don't know what they offered.
Part of the reason why Krebs was important to Buffalo is because he projects to be a centre in the NHL. If that was important to the Sabres, the Flames had little to offer. I'm not sure if Zary projects to be a centre or winger at the NHL level.

But I think the fan perception that "offers can be beat" by throwing in more stuff is fundamentally flawed.

You really think Krebs as part of the offer couldn’t be beat? That seems really hard to believe. Draft picks are currency as are players and prospects frsnkly.

I was with you in Krebs being valuable but not to the point that he would be irreplaceable in a trade.

[dino7c]

Not trading for Eichel will haunt us forever.

Mark my words, he will be a bonafide #1C and a 100 point + player once healthy next season. Top 5 in prime center in the league along with McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, and Draisatil.

I mean he wasn't that before so it would be quite the comeback next season

[Jiri Hrdina]

You really think Krebs as part of the offer couldn’t be beat? That seems really hard to believe. Draft picks are currency as are players and prospects frsnkly.

I was with you in Krebs being valuable but not to the point that he would be irreplaceable in a trade.

I don’t believe it could be easily beat including by any pick or prospect the Flames have

[2macinnis2]

I don’t believe it could be easily beat including by any pick or prospect the Flames have

Yeah but another team could have very easily beaten that offer. Why didn’t they? Young elite #1 center. Something amiss right?

[Flamesfan05]

Not figuring out how to turn Tkachuk into Eichel was a huge mistake

[Jiri Hrdina]

Yeah but another team could have very easily beaten that offer. Why didn’t they? Young elite #1 center. Something amiss right?

Not sure why you are implying. That there was some sort of conspiracy to send him to Vegas
I think it comes down to few teams having the cap space and willing to give up their top prospects
If Anaheim had offered Drysdale, Mctavish or Zegras he would have gone there
If LA offers byfield he would have gone there
I think the best prospect offer was Krebs and that’s why he went there

[2macinnis2]

Not sure why you are implying. That there was some sort of conspiracy to send him to Vegas
I think it comes down to few teams having the cap space and willing to give up their top prospects
If Anaheim had offered Drysdale, Mctavish or Zegras he would have gone there
If LA offers byfield he would have gone there
I think the best prospect offer was Krebs and that’s why he went there

Look I see people with degenerative cervical spine disease every day and have done hundreds of surgeries comparable to the one Eichel had done. Of those, the majority of patients have more than one problem with their spines and unfortunately most don’t return to their 100% baseline (which for those who aren’t pro athletes, is an acceptable result usually). There are some who have very good looking spines except one problem, and if that were Eichel, I think more teams would have been in the fray.

I think when you can’t even get a non-lottery protected first rounder for a player that is arguably better than the majority of #1 overall picks from the last decade, it speaks volumes about what how his medical condition was weighed by those in the know. If I were the Flames neurosurgeon, and I was brought films of a player with a truly ‘bad neck,’ I would be clear in telling the team the likelihood of the player having a long, pain and injury free career is probably low. I think that’s why the return for Buffalo was so bad.

Of course, like everyone else not in the know, I’m just putting out my best educated guess.

One last point… on ADR. That procedure is also generally a better fit for patients with good looking necks but one disc herniation. I wonder if some of the Sabres hesitation was that the anatomy wasn’t ideal for the procedure, which if it is the case, is a really bad sign for his long term prognosis.

[Knightslayer]

Buffalo playing great without Eichel. Maybe good not having a captain that doesn't only care about points.

[1qqaaz]

Why does this thread exist, all it does is bring pain and sorrow to my soul.

[djsFlames]

I wish Eichel well in his recovery, but dear Lord, why does this thread even exist.

There's some real masochists in here.

[2macinnis2]

I wish Eichel well in his recovery, but dear Lord, why does this thread even exist.

There's some real masochists in here.

It became a major storyline for the season, and for this GM, once their interest was declared. Considering the clear need for a #1 C, it would have been a storyline regardless. How this plays out is an (the?) elephant in the room. If he returns and plays to his potential and has a long and successful career, there is going to be a lot of egg on faces, not just in Calgary.

[Strange Brew]

I don’t believe it could be easily beat including by any pick or prospect the Flames have

So Krebs is more valuable than any combination of player/pick/prospect in the Flames organization? Maybe we’ll just disagree there. Or maybe you’re right that just Buffalo absolutely coveted this guy as an uber elite prospect.

Not that the Flames should have paid any price. The status quo is like an old pair of shoes that are still comfortable.

[Jiri Hrdina]

So Krebs is more valuable than any combination of player/pick/prospect in the Flames organization? Maybe we’ll just disagree there. Or maybe you’re right that just Buffalo absolutely coveted this guy as an uber elite prospect.

Not that the Flames should have paid any price. The status quo is like an old pair of shoes that are still comfortable.

Didn’t say any combination of picks or prospects
But I think it would have required a dramatic overpay

[Roof-Daddy]

This will probably go the way of ROR with potential to be even worse as Eichel is even better than ROR, and he's not just in our conference but our division.

"ROR is a career loser, loses everywhere he goes"
"ROR isn't worth his cap hit, he's over rated"
"ROR said he is losing his love for hockey, steer clear"

ROR gets traded for peanuts to a WC team and is their #1C now and won the Conn Smythe for them.

My bet is Eichel makes us all regret Treliving once again didn't step up and get the rarely available #1C

[Flames_Gimp]

I was in the get Eichel camp and this thread is just rubbing salt in the wound, Tre could have got it done. I hope it doesn't work out for Vegas

[Knightslayer]

Look I see people with degenerative cervical spine disease every day and have done hundreds of surgeries comparable to the one Eichel had done. Of those, the majority of patients have more than one problem with their spines and unfortunately most don’t return to their 100% baseline (which for those who aren’t pro athletes, is an acceptable result usually). There are some who have very good looking spines except one problem, and if that were Eichel, I think more teams would have been in the fray.

I think when you can’t even get a non-lottery protected first rounder for a player that is arguably better than the majority of #1 overall picks from the last decade, it speaks volumes about what how his medical condition was weighed by those in the know. If I were the Flames neurosurgeon, and I was brought films of a player with a truly ‘bad neck,’ I would be clear in telling the team the likelihood of the player having a long, pain and injury free career is probably low. I think that’s why the return for Buffalo was so bad.

Of course, like everyone else not in the know, I’m just putting out my best educated guess.

One last point… on ADR. That procedure is also generally a better fit for patients with good looking necks but one disc herniation. I wonder if some of the Sabres hesitation was that the anatomy wasn’t ideal for the procedure, which if it is the case, is a really bad sign for his long term prognosis.

Great post man, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Snuffleupagus]

Biased post is biased.
Krebs is a quality prospect. Full stop.
He tracks to be a better NHLer than Dube.
History will tell but when you label their package as "junk" it is designed to suggest somehow Tree screwed up.

I stated several times along the way that if Krebs was put on the table that it would like be over. So this isn't revisionist history by me.
Have you watched him in pro games? He's got one PP goal in the AHL in 10 games, of his 10 apples 7 of them were in 2 blowout wins against bad teams. in 13 NHL games he has one assist, he's not 18, he turns 21 in 2 months.

Dube at his age had 19g-57a AHL points and 7g-14a NHL points.

Krebs is a muffin, he looked good in junior because of his skating but that's against junior players, he's small and has a very weak shot, he looks more like Rob Schremp(without a good shot) than some future star to me, he'll have to transform himself even to become an NHL regular IMO.

For the record I would have given up Lindholm, Valimaki, prospect and protected 1st for a player that could very well change the fortunes of this team. Zero chance Buffalo doesn't take this.

Lets agree to re-visit this in a year.

[Monahammer]

I was one of the people who wanted eichel most but let's let it go. It's done. It's not happening. There is only pain for us down this path so let's not take it.

[Scroopy Noopers]

I was one of the people who wanted eichel most but let's let it go. It's done. It's not happening. There is only pain for us down this path so let's not take it.

Existence is pain. Especially for a Flames fan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Have you watched him in pro games? He's got one PP goal in the AHL in 10 games, of his 10 apples 7 of them were in 2 blowout wins against bad teams. in 13 NHL games he has one assist, he's not 18, he turns 21 in 2 months.

Dube at his age had 19g-57a AHL points and 7g-14a NHL points.

Krebs is a muffin, he looked good in junior because of his skating but that's against junior players, he's small and has a very weak shot, he looks more like Rob Schremp(without a good shot) than some future star to me, he'll have to transform himself even to become an NHL regular IMO.

For the record I would have given up Lindholm, Valimaki, prospect and protected 1st for a player that could very well change the fortunes of this team. Zero chance Buffalo doesn't take this.

Lets agree to re-visit this in a year.

It’s not about what he is now because he’s not a finished product. It’s about what he will be or more accurately what Buffalo thinks he will be
And I don’t agree with your take that there is no chance Buffalo doesn’t take that deal. It’s largely Lindholm and stuff

[ClubFlames]

If you want to shart on Brad that's fine, he has made few mistakes like every other GM and his time is running out but let's not ignore the fact that Buffalo was reportedly hell bent on Krebs and Tuch (lifelong Sabres fan) to make sure that newly acquired players don't leave after 1 year aka Matthew Tkachuk leaving as an RFA. What sort of package or an overpayment should Brad have offered to acquire Eichel?

[keenan87]

If you want to shart on Brad that's fine, he has made few mistakes like every other GM and his time is running out but let's not ignore the fact that Buffalo was reportedly hell bent on Krebs and Tuch (lifelong Sabres fan) to make sure that newly acquired players don't leave after 1 year aka Matthew Tkachuk leaving as an RFA. What sort of package or an overpayment should Brad have offered to acquire Eichel?

I believe it was reported that Buffalo asked about both Tkachuk and Mangiapane - Calgary wasn't interested.

That is just plain ridiculous as both those players shouldn't have been untouchable for Eichel.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I believe it was reported that Buffalo asked about both Tkachuk and Mangiapane - Calgary wasn't interested.

That is just plain ridiculous as both those players shouldn't have been untouchable for Eichel.

These things get reported with very little context.
It has also been speculated that the reporting that Tkachuk wasn't offered or considered has been damage control after the Flames didn't get the player to avoid an issue with Tkachuk.
Or we don't know in what context the Sabres asked about Tkachuk.
If the Flames offered Monahan+Dube+Zary+1st the Sabres could have said "cool - swap out Monahan for Tkachuk" and that's what the Flames declined.

We just don't know enough to judge if the Flames made a bad call or not. So folks will look at it in a manner that supports their historic positions and biases (myself included).

It's part of the problem with the short and quick reporting. All we know is the Sabres asked about the inclusion of those players and the Flames weren't interested. That's not a lot to truly judge the situation.

[GioforPM]

I believe it was reported that Buffalo asked about both Tkachuk and Mangiapane - Calgary wasn't interested.

That is just plain ridiculous as both those players shouldn't have been untouchable for Eichel.

No - it wasn’t reported. Some pundit said he imagined that they did.

[keenan87]

No - it wasn’t reported. Some pundit said he imagined that they did.

Unless Friedman is a random pundit?

[direwolf]

People are still bitching and moaning about this? It's over, folks. It's time to move on.

[Strange Brew]

These things get reported with very little context.
It has also been speculated that the reporting that Tkachuk wasn't offered or considered has been damage control after the Flames didn't get the player to avoid an issue with Tkachuk.
Or we don't know in what context the Sabres asked about Tkachuk.
If the Flames offered Monahan+Dube+Zary+1st the Sabres could have said "cool - swap out Monahan for Tkachuk" and that's what the Flames declined.

We just don't know enough to judge if the Flames made a bad call or not. So folks will look at it in a manner that supports their historic positions and biases (myself included).

It's part of the problem with the short and quick reporting. All we know is the Sabres asked about the inclusion of those players and the Flames weren't interested. That's not a lot to truly judge the situation.

In any scenario, Flames were getting the best player in the deal and someone who instantly becomes most valuable asset in the organization. Definitely an injury risk but it sounds like Flames were comfortable with the treatment.

No idea what was offered and I know you're just spitballing but if Flames thought a package of 2nd and 3rd liners was going to get it done, maybe Friedman was right and they weren't close. Unfortunately it wasn't Doug Risebrough on the other side.

[GioforPM]

Unless Friedman is a random pundit?

Friedman wasn’t the person who said it, and no one said they knew they were. It was “I think they offered…”. They were guessing.

[Jay Random]

Existence is pain. Especially for a Flames fan.

‘Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.’
— William Goldman, The Princess Bride

[AT77]

I mean he wasn't that before so it would be quite the comeback next season

I would argue that he was definitely trending in that 100+ point player direction had it not been for the covid shortened season then the injury. The year that covid hit, he was in pace for 43 goals & 94 points, so just shy of 100.

I would also argue that all of the above players that I mentioned were drafted into a much better spot. MacKinnon with the Avs whilst they still had O’Reilly and Duchene and now playing with Landeskog, Rantenen, and Makar. Matthews coming into a core with Marner and Nylander, then having Tavares join them. And although Edmonton was a complete mess, McDavid and Draisaitl still had each other. Eichel has never been able to play consistently with players of that caliber. He was drafted to a team that was far worse off than any of those teams, and could never get their act together to surround him with proper talent on a consistent basis.

Now he gets to consistently play with star players such as Stone, Pacioretty, Theodore, and Pietrangelo, as well as a solid top AND bottom 6 as Vegas has great depth. I would not be surprised at all if he turns into a consistent 100+ point player, and I honestly believe he will. We’ve yet to see the best of Eichel, but we will soon.

[dino7c]

I would argue that he was definitely trending in that 100+ point player direction had it not been for the covid shortened season then the injury. The year that covid hit, he was in pace for 43 goals & 94 points, so just shy of 100.

I would also argue that all of the above players that I mentioned were drafted into a much better spot. MacKinnon with the Avs whilst they still had O’Reilly and Duchene and now playing with Landeskog, Rantenen, and Makar. Matthews coming into a core with Marner and Nylander, then having Tavares join them. And although Edmonton was a complete mess, McDavid and Draisaitl still had each other. Eichel has never been able to play consistently with players of that caliber. He was drafted to a team that was far worse off than any of those teams, and could never get their act together to surround him with proper talent on a consistent basis.

Now he gets to consistently play with star players such as Stone, Pacioretty, Theodore, and Pietrangelo, as well as a solid bottom 6 as Vegas has great depth. I would not be surprised at all if he turns into a consistent 100+ point player, and I honestly believe he will. We’ve yet to see the best of Eichel, but we will soon.

Minus 12M more salary

Vegas is not just adding Eichel...their depth will be tested big time

[AT77]

Minus 12M more salary

Vegas is not just adding Eichel...their depth will be tested big time

You are right, however he will still be playing on a much better team, with better players, in a better system, with a great coaching staff. I really do believe he’ll shine in that environment. Not to mention the better place he will be in mentally playing for Vegas.

[GioforPM]

Minus 12M more salary

Vegas is not just adding Eichel...their depth will be tested big time

Darryl? Is that you?

[schteve_d]

The NHL posted a short video on Facebook today showing Jack Eichel skating. I really wish we had been able to work out a deal for him. It's not like we are hurting at all, I am loving this season, but I really think he could have been a large part of our future!

[Rutuu]

What is the "I told you so" schedule for believers vs non believers that he would recover?

1. Return to line up?
2. PPG pace?
3. PPG in the playoffs?
4. Stanley Cup?

[GioforPM]

The NHL posted a short video on Facebook today showing Jack Eichel skating. I really wish we had been able to work out a deal for him. It's not like we are hurting at all, I am loving this season, but I really think he could have been a large part of our future!

Eichel was skating pre surgery as well.

[Enoch Root]

What is the "I told you so" schedule for believers vs non believers that he would recover?

1. Return to line up?
2. PPG pace?
3. PPG in the playoffs?
4. Stanley Cup?

There is no accurate 'I told you so' because, even if it happens, it might not have.

But the answer would be playing at the level he was before (i.e. back to 100%)

[GreenLantern2814]

There is no accurate 'I told you so' because, even if it happens, it might not have.

But the answer would be playing at the level he was before (i.e. back to 100%)

If Eichel comes back at the same level he was, it’s “I told you so”.

If he comes back at the level he was and wins a title before his deal expires, you won’t hear the end of it for 20 years.

[schteve_d]

Eichler was skating pre surgery as well.

Oh, sorry I did not realize that. Perhaps not as big of news as I had thought.

[GioforPM]

Oh, sorry I did not realize that. Perhaps not as big of news as I had thought.

It’s newsworthy.

[Rutuu]

It definitely could be a nuanced "I told you so"...he's been off for awhile.

Not really sciency but when guys miss camp or hold out they tend to have off years. I look at William Nylander in 2018-19 as a guy that had an off year after a contract squabble that went into the season.

The next 3 seasons...back to where they thought he should be with the contract.

So both sides of the discussion may get there time in the sun over the next 12months. Pretty cool. :)

[GioforPM]

It definitely could be a nuanced "I told you so"...he's been off for awhile.

Not really sciency but when guys miss camp or hold out they tend to have off years. I look at William Nylander in 2018-19 as a guy that had an off year after a contract squabble that went into the season.

The next 3 seasons...back to where they thought he should be with the contract.

So both sides of the discussion may get there time in the sun over the next 12months. Pretty cool. :)

Look at Petterson this year just missing all of camp.

[Rutuu]

Definitely Petterson is a good one to look at for a big bounce back next season (for all of us Fantasy players ;) ).

[FusionX]

This thread still keeps breaking my heart lol. Looking at the team now, I can't help but imagine what my excitement level would be if we subtracted Monahan, Valimaki and a few prospects for Eichel (obviously not what Buffalo wanted). Maaaan

Anyways, I'll just go back to enjoying the season, let's just win the cup so we won't have to look back at this ever again. Deal? Deal.

[GreenLantern2814]

This thread still keeps breaking my heart lol. Looking at the team now, I can't help but imagine what my excitement level would be if we subtracted Monahan, Valimaki and a few prospects for Eichel (obviously not what Buffalo wanted). Maaaan

Anyways, I'll just go back to enjoying the season, let's just win the cup so we won't have to look back at this ever again. Deal? Deal.

Win a title this season and Eichel becomes Brett Hull.

Better win.

No sense picking in the top-3 rounds this year, and we’ve probably got to have noteworthy contributions from at least Zary and Pelletier, and maybe Coronato as well.

Post Script edit:

And as Mangiapane scores his 16th goal (on 29% shooting) and 3rd assist tonight, it remains baffling that he wasn’t on the table for this player.

Love him. I do. Awesome 6th round pick.

He’s older than Eichel and has 261 fewer points.

Just imagine explaining this to people 3-5 years from now.

“Well, you have to understand, he was on the long list for Team Canada after being the MVP of the World Not in the Playoffs championship, so obviously we couldn’t include him for a player who would be Team USA’s presumptive #2C behind Auston Matthews when healthy.”

Makes perfect sense. Not at all someone you sell high on.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Win a title this season and Eichel becomes Brett Hull.

Better win.

No sense picking in the top-3 rounds this year, and we’ve probably got to have noteworthy contributions from at least Zary and Pelletier, and maybe Coronato as well.

Post Script edit:

And as Mangiapane scores his 16th goal (on 29% shooting) and 3rd assist tonight, it remains baffling that he wasn’t on the table for this player.

Love him. I do. Awesome 6th round pick.

He’s older than Eichel and has 261 fewer points.

Just imagine explaining this to people 3-5 years from now.

“Well, you have to understand, he was on the long list for Team Canada after being the MVP of the World Not in the Playoffs championship, so obviously we couldn’t include him for a player who would be Team USA’s presumptive #2C behind Auston Matthews when healthy.”

Makes perfect sense. Not at all someone you sell high on.

Short term thinking is what got us here, short term thinking is what keeps us here. However if they keep rolling under Darryl and somehow win the cup in the next 2 seasons, Brad is still proven right.. Sometimes short term thinking wins cups.. but isn't how you build a dynasty.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Win a title this season and Eichel becomes Brett Hull.

Better win.

No sense picking in the top-3 rounds this year, and we’ve probably got to have noteworthy contributions from at least Zary and Pelletier, and maybe Coronato as well.

Post Script edit:

And as Mangiapane scores his 16th goal (on 29% shooting) and 3rd assist tonight, it remains baffling that he wasn’t on the table for this player.

Love him. I do. Awesome 6th round pick.

He’s older than Eichel and has 261 fewer points.

Just imagine explaining this to people 3-5 years from now.

“Well, you have to understand, he was on the long list for Team Canada after being the MVP of the World Not in the Playoffs championship, so obviously we couldn’t include him for a player who would be Team USA’s presumptive #2C behind Auston Matthews when healthy.”

Makes perfect sense. Not at all someone you sell high on.

You are over-reacting to a couple of tidbit reports because it suits your narrative. We have no idea what a deal would have looked liked with him included. If it was even possible at all.

Comparing this to Hull, who is a player the Flames ACTUALLY had is silly.

I guess we can look forward to you complaining about this and your hyperbole for years, unless the Flames win a cup.

[Monahammer]

I was one of the people banging the drum hardest for an eichel trade. But the team is winning, we didn't get him. No sense dwelling on it. Certainly no sense being angry that we didn't trade our best goal scorer during one of our best ever starts to a season...

Just try to enjoy some flames hockey!!

Bennett is another one- no sense getting mad about bennett succeeding elsewhere. The reality is that the flames are a much better team when he is not playing on it. We know the flames are a good team now and dont know what they would look like with Eichel, so perhaps the same mantra applies. It doesn't really matter how good a player looks elsewhere, they probably would not have looked the same here. Too many variables.

[Macindoc]

Win a title this season and Eichel becomes Brett Hull.

Better win.

No sense picking in the top-3 rounds this year, and we’ve probably got to have noteworthy contributions from at least Zary and Pelletier, and maybe Coronato as well.

Post Script edit:

And as Mangiapane scores his 16th goal (on 29% shooting) and 3rd assist tonight, it remains baffling that he wasn’t on the table for this player.

Love him. I do. Awesome 6th round pick.

He’s older than Eichel and has 261 fewer points.

Just imagine explaining this to people 3-5 years from now.

“Well, you have to understand, he was on the long list for Team Canada after being the MVP of the World Not in the Playoffs championship, so obviously we couldn’t include him for a player who would be Team USA’s presumptive #2C behind Auston Matthews when healthy.”

Makes perfect sense. Not at all someone you sell high on.
Buffalo wanted Krebs. They said a much. Flames were just a pawn in their negotiations. Unless the Flames were somehow able to use Mangiapane in a trade to acquire Krebs, then they weren't really in the running to get Eichel.

[Roof-Daddy]

I was one of the people banging the drum hardest for an eichel trade. But the team is winning, we didn't get him. No sense dwelling on it. Certainly no sense being angry that we didn't trade our best goal scorer during one of our best ever starts to a season...

Just try to enjoy some flames hockey!!



I'm enjoying the heck out of this season so far. Very pleasantly surprised.

Even if they finish with 115 points though, the whole thing gets flushed down the toilet if they get knocked out in round 1 like in 2019. And it will be made 1000 times worse if it's an Eichel led VGK team that knocks us out.

But yeah, for now enjoy and hope to hell they have playoff success too.

[Burning Beard]

I'm enjoying the heck out of this season so far. Very pleasantly surprised.

Even if they finish with 115 points though, the whole thing gets flushed down the toilet if they get knocked out in round 1 like in 2019. And it will be made 1000 times worse if it's an Eichel led VGK team that knocks us out.

But yeah, for now enjoy and hope to hell they have playoff success too.

Do you see this version of the team with Sutter at the helm being first round fodder again? I sure don't.

[Roof-Daddy]

Do you see this version of the team with Sutter at the helm being first round fodder again? I sure don't.

Definitely not fodder. I will be absolutely shocked if they get steam rolled like in the Avs series.

Could definitely lose a close series though. Especially if they run into a team like Vegas who are no slouches at two way hockey themselves, already have multiple deep runs under their belts, and might just be adding an elite 1C to their roster just in time for the playoffs.

[dustygoon]

I'm accepting that we likely won't have the big splash star in Calgary. I'm fine with the current situation.

Now I'm just excited to see him return, look great, and make the Buffalo franchise, it's GM and it's terrible ownership look more inept. I hate how they handled that trade and let the Tkatchuk rumour slip out.

[Mr.Coffee]

You are over-reacting to a couple of tidbit reports because it suits your narrative. We have no idea what a deal would have looked liked with him included. If it was even possible at all.

Comparing this to Hull, who is a player the Flames ACTUALLY had is silly.

I guess we can look forward to you complaining about this and your hyperbole for years, unless the Flames win a cup.

That’s right, correct.

Always a reason not to do something.

[TheIronMaiden]

I'm convinced the only reason the Flames were included in rumors was to drive traffic to articles. It's a go to hockey media marketing strategy.

[Monahammer]

We have a big splashy star in Calgary. IMO we have two of them. People talk about Tkachuk and Gaudreau everywhere. They are playing at that Elite level this year.

[CliffFletcher]

The meltdown is going to happen when the Flames and Knights meet in the playoffs this year. Every time Eichel scores there will be a chorus of moaning on CP.

[Textcritic]

Definitely not fodder. I will be absolutely shocked if they get steam rolled like in the Avs series.



Could definitely lose a close series though. Especially if they run into a team like Vegas who are no slouches at two way hockey themselves, already have multiple deep runs under their belts, and might just be adding an elite 1C to their roster just in time for the playoffs.An elite 1C coming off of major surgery, and who will not have played any hockey at all for more than a full year. Something tells me that Jack Eichel will not hit the ground running, and then after what could realistically be a very disappointing playoffs in VGK (if they even make it in) that team will be dismantled in the off season.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Johnny Makarov]

God you would think being 3rd in the league 1/4 in with no signs of letting up, would shut the hell up about Eichel...

[Mr.Coffee]

The meltdown is going to happen when the Flames and Knights meet in the playoffs this year. Every time Eichel scores there will be a chorus of moaning on CP.

Justified moaning.

Yep.

[Enoch Root]

God you would think being 3rd in the league 1/4 in with no signs of letting up, would shut the hell up about Eichel...

or about Giordano, for that matter

[Johnny Makarov]

or about Giordano, for that matter

No kidding! what kind of loser starts a Bring back Gio thread??!! lol

[Johnny Makarov]

Course I prob don't have much love for Eichel. For the draft and his entire rookie season I thought his name was Jake Eichel...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Justified moaning.

Yep.

Isn’t justified because we don’t know if they actually had a path to acquire him
But moan away. It’s your right

[Mr.Coffee]

Isn’t justified because we don’t know if they actually had a path to acquire him
But moan away. It’s your right

I’ll only piss and moan about it if you promise to discuss it honestly with me in the future once we see how things work out.

Also so disingenuous to say we had no idea what happened come on now. We know plenty about what happened.

[Mr.Coffee]

God you would think being 3rd in the league 1/4 in with no signs of letting up, would shut the hell up about Eichel...

If you have a gander at contract status this our last chance for a long while to win a Cup.

You aren’t re-signing this forward core. Better pray they win it all this year, I guess because we are in for a rebuild. Plus Sutter is older than God and only one year left and he really is the X factor let’s be real. You think veteran biased Sutter is gonna want to hang around for a rebuild??

Do you think Eichel would have been good for the future? This is fundamentally the risk based question and the rest of the discussion is window dressing.

I get that people don’t want to re-visit the discussion (…then… don’t?) however this will absolutely come up for many future years by many different people for a long time given the context of everything so I’d buckle up if I were you.

[GioforPM]

I’ll only piss and moan about it if you promise to discuss it honestly with me in the future once we see how things work out.

Also so disingenuous to say we had no idea what happened come on now. We know plenty about what happened.

We don't KNOW a whole bunch, except what the deal actually was. There's been a ton of speculation though. Some of which has been flatly denied.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Also so disingenuous to say we had no idea what happened come on now. We know plenty about what happened.

Like what exactly? From the Flames perspective.

[Mr.Coffee]

Well we know he was available and being shopped.

We know the assets the Flames have. We know the contract status, and we know the Flames have not had an elite number one center in 30 years, and we know the Flames franchise record since about that time. We also know that Vegas got him, and they are a division rival.

We have a strong inclination that Treliving was talking to Buffalo about how to make it work. Also based on rumours, we have a (very I’d say) strong inclination that the Flames were either runner up or one of the last teams involved.

So I’d say that’s quite a bit we do know or have strong inclinations about and from these points above it’s extremely fair that people have questions and wonder what might’ve been and to levy criticism about the fact it did not happen.

At the end of the day it’s just a matter of opinion on what would have been better for the Flames. We’re all fans here.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Ah ok. I thought you were talking about actual packages the Flames offered, if any.

[GioforPM]

Well we know he was available and being shopped.

We know the assets the Flames have. We know the contract status, and we know the Flames have not had an elite number one center in 30 years, and we know the Flames franchise record since about that time. We also know that Vegas got him, and they are a division rival.

We have a strong inclination that Treliving was talking to Buffalo about how to make it work. Also based on rumours, we have a (very I’d say) strong inclination that the Flames were either runner up or one of the last teams involved.

So I’d say that’s quite a bit we do know or have strong inclinations about and from these points above it’s extremely fair that people have questions and wonder what might’ve been and to levy criticism about the fact it did not happen.

At the end of the day it’s just a matter of opinion on what would have been better for the Flames. We’re all fans here.

So what you know basically is that he was for sale, the Flames inquired because they could have used him. But not whether they had the assets Buffalo wanted and said no, or whether Buffalo said no to a good offer from the Flames.

There’s no use in moaning about Buffalo turning down a superior deal. Or Treliving hanging up if the ask was unreasonable.

It’s like complaining that the Flames missed out on Mackinnon

[Inglewood Jack]

open those ADR floodgates!

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-tyler-johnson-undergoes-adr-surgery-three-months/

Chicago Blackhawks centre Tyler Johnson has had artificial disk replacement, the same surgery Jack Eichel underwent, and could be out for as long as three months.

The team announced the move Friday.

Two-time Stanley Cup winner Johnson hasn’t played since Oct. 29 because of COVID-19 and the neck injury.

“After trying to manage his neck pain conservatively for the past couple of weeks, Tyler underwent neck surgery today," Blackhawks team doctor Michael Terry said in a statement through the team. "The prognosis is good and his anticipated return to play is approximately three months.”

[Jiri Hrdina]

i’ll only piss and moan about it if you promise to discuss it honestly with me in the future once we see how things work out.

Also so disingenuous to say we had no idea what happened come on now. We know plenty about what happened.

nm

[dissentowner]

Are we still discussing this guy? We didn't get him, who gives a rats patooty about what is happening with Jack Eichel now. Let it go.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Are we still discussing this guy? We didn't get him, who gives a rats patooty about what is happening with Jack Eichel now. Let it go.

He's the new Mark Stone. Look forward to hearing about him for years.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The meltdown is going to happen when the Flames and Knights meet in the playoffs this year. Every time Eichel scores there will be a chorus of moaning on CP.

Can we promise to keep all the stupidity to this thread at least?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Also, I heard a rumour Eichel didn’t want to come to Calgary because the fans aren’t loud enough.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The meltdown is going to happen when the Flames and Knights meet in the playoffs this year. Every time Eichel scores there will be a chorus of moaning on CP.

IF the Knights make the playoffs. IF Eichel can take contact again. IF he is a player close to his former self.

The Flames didn't get him, nor appeared ready to cough up what it took to get him, so let's move on and cheer for the players and team that is actually here and wants to be here. #### Jack Eichel.

[GreenLantern2814]

You are over-reacting to a couple of tidbit reports because it suits your narrative. We have no idea what a deal would have looked liked with him included. If it was even possible at all.

Comparing this to Hull, who is a player the Flames ACTUALLY had is silly.

I guess we can look forward to you complaining about this and your hyperbole for years, unless the Flames win a cup.

They spent 5 months pursuing a 24-year old #1C under contract for 5 years and didn’t close the deal.

Now they’re staring down the barrel of having to pay three wingers close to $30M, if two of them don’t just up and leave.

It is what it is.

[Mr.Coffee]

So what you know basically is that he was for sale, the Flames inquired because they could have used him. But not whether they had the assets Buffalo wanted and said no, or whether Buffalo said no to a good offer from the Flames.

There’s no use in moaning about Buffalo turning down a superior deal. Or Treliving hanging up if the ask was unreasonable.

It’s like complaining that the Flames missed out on Mackinnon

It’s simply an opinion about what I believe could have been.

It’s not at all like Mackinnon. I mean, they’re both hockey players, both excellent centermen but that’s about where the similarities end contextually. Hilarious comparison. Like you honestly have no idea why people would complain about this situation vs. Complaining about why we don’t have Mackinnon? That’s simply not arguing in good faith and you know it.

As for the rest of you, and the (many, sadly)anguishing posts about “why are we still talking about this”, you don’t have to. What you are posting is way more nonsense than what I am lol. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. If you don’t want to talk about it, don’t, who cares? It’s my opinion that the Flames had a shot, should have taken it, but didn’t and I think it’s going to kick them in the ass down the road. The reason I keep bringing it up is because when you make mistakes you should learn from them. Hopefully when the Flames get their next chance to trade for a #1 center in 30 more years we will choose a different path so that they can have a chance at winning the Cup before I die.

Oh and Cecil, the fans are too quiet.

[Mr.Coffee]

Can we promise to keep all the stupidity to this thread at least?

What is it that compels you to reply or engage in topics you don’t want to engage or discuss or in your words you feel are “stupid”?

Don’t worry, you don’t have to reply because literally nobody cares.

[Mr.Coffee]

They spent 5 months pursuing a 24-year old #1C under contract for 5 years and didn’t close the deal.

Now they’re staring down the barrel of having to pay three wingers close to $30M, if two of them don’t just up and leave.

It is what it is.

Shhhhhh you’re not allowed to talk about it because…..things? People don’t like it? It pains others somehow?

[KootenayFlamesFan]

They spent 5 months pursuing a 24-year old #1C under contract for 5 years and didn’t close the deal.

Now they’re staring down the barrel of having to pay three wingers close to $30M, if two of them don’t just up and leave.

It is what it is.

Which wingers are going to just leave? Johnny is a UFA after this season, so perhaps. After that.......Pitlick? Ritchie? Lewis?

[GreenLantern2814]

Which wingers are going to just leave? Johnny is a UFA after this season, so perhaps. After that.......Pitlick? Ritchie? Lewis?

Tkachuk can accept his $9M qualifying offer as soon as it comes through the fax and be a UFA at 25.

Which you know.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Tkachuk can accept his $9M qualifying offer as soon as it comes through the fax and be a UFA at 25.

Which you know.

He can also sign a 7 year deal.

I thought you meant after this season, but you meant eventually some players might leave. Okay, that's fair..

[GioforPM]

It’s simply an opinion about what I believe could have been.

It’s not at all like Mackinnon. I mean, they’re both hockey players, both excellent centermen but that’s about where the similarities end contextually. Hilarious comparison. Like you honestly have no idea why people would complain about this situation vs. Complaining about why we don’t have Mackinnon? That’s simply not arguing in good faith and you know it.



You completely missed the point, and don’t understand analogies. It’s possibly exactly like Mackinnon because the Flames arguably were not in a position to acquire either player no matter what they did.

You have no idea what “shot” the Flames took. And when pressed, I bet you won’t say what offer that Buffalo couldn’t possibly refuse should have been made.

[Jiri Hrdina]

They spent 5 months pursuing a 24-year old #1C under contract for 5 years and didn’t close the deal.

Now they’re staring down the barrel of having to pay three wingers close to $30M, if two of them don’t just up and leave.

It is what it is.

Fun way to be a fan.
I don't like the contract situations of Tkachuk and Johnny but if they leave it will force the team into a re-build.
The team is playing well. Enjoy it. Sports is fun.

We don't know how close they actually were to getting Eichel. Maybe we will at some point. But regardless it seems like a weird thing to obsess about.

[Mattman]

Tyler Johnson just had the same artificial disk replacement surgery that Eichel got. As a physiotherapy student, I find this super interesting as there were only a handful of these surgeries done for athletes done before and now we've seen 2 in a month in the NHL alone.

Team loyalty aside I hope both these guys make full comebacks and there are no drawbacks, as this opens the door for some pretty incredible sports science options.

Best of luck Tyler!

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/blackhawks-tyler-johnson-undergoes-adr-surgery-three-months/

[OmegaV4]

This is calgarypuck.com, a site primarily focused on the Calgary Flames, with one of the forums being:

Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum

Jack Eichel(last I checked) is not a member of the Calgary Flames, meaning that this thread should either be moved to off topic, or closed.

In case any were wondering.

[FlamesAddiction]

This is calgarypuck.com, a site primarily focused on the Calgary Flames, with one of the forums being:

Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum

Jack Eichel(last I checked) is not a member of the Calgary Flames, meaning that this thread should either be moved to off topic, or closed.

In case any were wondering.

Sometimes I think there should be a Debbie Downer sub-forum where we can put threads based on Eichel, Fox, Bennett, etc.

[Strange Brew]

I’d much rather read about people pining for Eichel, in a clearly labeled discussion thread, than people whining about Cassie Campbell not being a big enough cheerleader for the Flames.

But that’s just me. People are going to talk about what’s on their mind.

[memphusk]

Why do threads like these give people fits? Could you just not click on it and carry on with your miserable lives instead of asking for it to be moved or closed? Its just the internet.

[Gaskal]

Sometimes I think there should be a Debbie Downer sub-forum where we can put threads based on Eichel, Fox, Bennett, etc.
Lol I'm all for it.

Loosely regulated whine forum! All the bellyaching one could possibly want at your fingertips a click away. Johnny not eating enough veggies? Cassie not knowing a single thing about 90s hockey culture? Sam Bennett looking like he's Jack Eichel? Jack Eichel looking like he's Jack Eichel?

Come one, come all!

[Finger Cookin]

Everybody loves a good comeback story

qQseDjVp10I

[Locke]

Jack Eichel skated in practice wearing a full-contact jersey for the first time since joining the team on Monday.https://www.tsn.ca/vegas-golden-knights-jack-eichel-toronto-maple-leafs-jake-muzzin-1.1756112

https://c.tenor.com/Hn4RPDx7TtYAAAAC/joker-the-dark-knight.gif

[the-rasta-masta]

So he must be fairly close. What does the Vegas Cap situation look like now? Will they be making some trades shortly?

[FlamesAddiction]

On January 10th when he started non-contact practice with the team, they said he was still 2 months away from playing, so they still have another month to figure out how to cheat the system.

[SuperMatt18]

So he must be fairly close. What does the Vegas Cap situation look like now? Will they be making some trades shortly?

With Martinez and Bischoff on LTIR they would need to clear $3M before being able to activate Eichel.

But would also need to then free up ~$5.5M more to be able to activate Martinez.

So in total probably need to clear about $8.5M before the end of the season if nobody else goes on LTIR.

[stemit14]

I don’t think they will clear anywhere near that much. Not even close… they will find some guys on the team who are willing to sit out, put them on LTIR and activate eichel. People speculate that they might move smith but I don’t even think they’ll do that.

I could even see them blatantly asking everyone on the team if any of them have any “nagging injuries”. They’ll say they need some guys to be team players so that they don’t have to dismantle the team before playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FlamesAddiction]

I don’t think they will clear anywhere near that much. Not even close… they will find some guys on the team who are willing to sit out, put them on LTIR and activate eichel. People speculate that they might move smith but I don’t even think they’ll do that.

I could even see them blatantly asking everyone on the team if any of them have any “nagging injuries”. They’ll say they need some guys to be team players so that they don’t have to dismantle the team before playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Totally, Vegas isn't losing anyone. They will have no problem finding players that are banged up and willing to rest going into the playoffs if it means being able to go in with a stacked roster. It won't be lying either. We always hear about players going into the playoffs injured that could have justifiably been on LTIR for 30 days if the team had the luxury of doing that.

Imagine how much of a dick you would feel like if you insisted on being in the line-up at 75%, forcing the team to lose a good player, and possibly costing the rest of your friends a chance at the Stanley Cup. Even if everyone is 100% healthy (not likely), I would take one for the team in order to not lose anyone and I am sure many players would, especially ones with nothing to prove on an individual level.

From what I can tell, the NHL doesn't police the LTIR that hard to say that a player should not be on it. If a team doctor says they need to sit out to heal an injury, then that's it.

They really need to make it so that at least the on-ice roster for playoff games needs to be cap compliant.

[Moneyhands23]

50/50 he is on the IR buy April 1st

[Jay Random]

I don’t think they will clear anywhere near that much. Not even close… they will find some guys on the team who are willing to sit out, put them on LTIR and activate eichel.

How much are they going to bribe the league's medical staff to approve the LTIR? And why will the other 31 teams just sit there and let the league do that?

[djsFlames]

I'm not a fan of the Legend of SB thread but this one takes the cake for sure for worst thread on the FOI forum.

[stemit14]

How much are they going to bribe the league's medical staff to approve the LTIR? And why will the other 31 teams just sit there and let the league do that?


Won’t have to bribe them at all.

Player: “My neck has been hurting.”

Doctor: “Did you strain it or twist it in a game?”

Player: “Yeah. It’s been bothering me for a while. Last time this happened it took a couple months to heal up completely.”

Doctor: “Ok. We’ll check you week-to-week to see when you feel 100%.”

Doctor stamps approval for LTIR.

If a player says he feels pain or discomfort in any way, a doctor will likely approve of rest and recovery every single time. What’s he going to do? Say you’re lying, there’s nothing on the X-rays, and send the player back out there to play a super physical sport? No way. They would always lean on the side of caution.

As far as the other 31 teams… what could they do? What could/would the league do?

They could have video footage of Vegas management asking all the players at once if any of them have any nagging injuries - even very small ones - and, if they do, they should step up for the team and go on LTIR so that the team can stay together. There would be zero consequences. Management could say they didn’t want to risk injuries getting worse while also trading away players to fit in eichel only to have a depleted roster come playoffs so they chose to not force players to play through “injuries”. Done. There’s likely no way to fight back against Vegas in this case. They will absolutely get away with it.

The only way you could punish/stop them is if a player openly admitted to completely lying about injuries because they were told to by management to do so. Very unlikely.

Management in the case of Vegas will be basically giving the ultimatum to everyone on the team… either find some injuries amongst yourselves or some of you will get traded/put on waivers and it could cost us the ability to have a powerhouse come playoffs. You get paid a full salary either way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Textcritic]

^
Yeah, I am not convinced that players are lining up to sit for weeks on end on LTIR. Most of these guys want—and need—to play as much as they can.

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[stemit14]

^
Yeah, I am not convinced that players are lining up to sit for weeks on end on LTIR. Most of these guys want—and need—to play as much as they can.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


Not saying they’d be lining up to do it. I’m saying there will be players that step up to do it for the chance to keep the team together. The alternative is a valuable player being lost from the roster permanently due to a trade - diminishing the overall team and its chance at a cup this year.

I would imagine management will ask their physiotherapists and doctors if any of their players have been pushing through any injuries/discomfort - even the slightest ones. Then they’ll approach those players asking them to rest up and heal up for the good of the team and for themselves so they’re 100% for playoffs. Nobody gets traded. You get your full salary. You’re back for playoffs or even before if someone else has an injury issue. Eichel gets to play too. The team is then primed for a deep run without having to sacrifice any more players to acquire eichel.


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[Jay Random]

I would imagine management will ask their physiotherapists and doctors if any of their players have been pushing through any injuries/discomfort - even the slightest ones. Then they’ll approach those players asking them to rest up and heal up for the good of the team and for themselves so they’re 100% for playoffs.

That doesn't work. To qualify for LTIR, the player has to be actually unfit to play, and the league is entitled to challenge any LTIR claim and have it reviewed by a neutral physician. If that physician determines that the player does not have a bona fide injury requiring him to miss at least 10 games or 24 days consecutively, the player can't go on LTIR and there is no cap relief. If the attempted circumvention is serious enough (like, say, trying to have $10 million worth of extra players on the active roster during the regular season, as some of you think Vegas can do), then the league can punish the team by a fine of up to $5 million, loss of draft picks, and even forfeiting games.

To my knowledge, no player has ever been put on phony LTIR simply so that another player could come off LTIR and be activated. I don't expect it to happen this time: 31 other teams have an interest in making sure it doesn't.

As far as the other 31 teams… what could they do? What could/would the league do?

I've just outlined what the league could do. What the 31 teams can do is take a vote of the Board of Governors and order the league to take action.

[Samonadreau]

That doesn't work. To qualify for LTIR, the player has to be actually unfit to play, and the league is entitled to challenge any LTIR claim and have it reviewed by a neutral physician. If that physician determines that the player does not have a bona fide injury requiring him to miss at least 10 games or 24 days consecutively, the player can't go on LTIR and there is no cap relief. If the attempted circumvention is serious enough (like, say, trying to have $10 million worth of extra players on the active roster during the regular season, as some of you think Vegas can do), then the league can punish the team by a fine of up to $5 million, loss of draft picks, and even forfeiting games.

To my knowledge, no player has ever been put on phony LTIR simply so that another player could come off LTIR and be activated. I don't expect it to happen this time: 31 other teams have an interest in making sure it doesn't.



I've just outlined what the league could do. What the 31 teams can do is take a vote of the Board of Governors and order the league to take action.

Yeah, the Kucherov situation was different in that he was injured enough to go on LTIR.... the shady part was he just conveniently stayed on LTIR until the first game of the playoffs.

[Robbob]

I recall when Rhett was put on LTIR for his shoulder, he said that he was checked by NHL docs to confirm. So no, Vegas isn't getting away with a fake LTIR injury. That is part of the problem with players on LTIR that return in season, it will be a cap issue if he returns. If the doctors say a couple months then it looks like Vegas has until the trade deadline to sort things out. That is if he doesn't have any setbacks.

[Robbob]

Kucherov also came back before the typical time frame for the surgery he had. So it was a bit more convenient rather then something sinister.

[stemit14]

I recall when Rhett was put on LTIR for his shoulder, he said that he was checked by NHL docs to confirm. So no, Vegas isn't getting away with a fake LTIR injury. That is part of the problem with players on LTIR that return in season, it will be a cap issue if he returns. If the doctors say a couple months then it looks like Vegas has until the trade deadline to sort things out. That is if he doesn't have any setbacks.


Honest question. Can anyone recall the NHL denying a team the ability to put a player on LTIR? If a player says something hurts… I don’t think a doctor will deny them rest and recovery - NHL doctor or not. Even in this example with Rhett… the doctor still approved the LTIR.

I understand that there are rules to prevent a team from exploiting the system. I just think that they are difficult to enforce. I’m much more convinced a couple players will be placed on LTIR leading up to Eichel’s return rather than Vegas trading away valuable players that they will want for the playoffs. We’ll see what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GioforPM]

To go on LTIR the player has to be expected to miss a minimum of 10 games/24 days. So Vegas would need to sit a guy that’s (a) injured enough to make that claim and (b) makes enough to make a difference cap-wise. And IMO they would probably have to sit the player for at least 8 to make it look good. That’s 2-3 weeks off for a guy who’s good enough to make a dent in the cap. We’re talking a $4-5M player.

[Macindoc]

With Martinez and Bischoff on LTIR they would need to clear $3M before being able to activate Eichel.

But would also need to then free up ~$5.5M more to be able to activate Martinez.

So in total probably need to clear about $8.5M before the end of the season if nobody else goes on LTIR.
Their GM has already said that "players will get injured", so I see more LTIR coming up for some of the underperforming players currently in their lineup. Everyone has nagging minor injuries throughout the season.

[Textcritic]

Honest question. Can anyone recall the NHL denying a team the ability to put a player on LTIR? If a player says something hurts… I don’t think a doctor will deny them rest and recovery - NHL doctor or not. Even in this example with Rhett… the doctor still approved the LTIR.

I understand that there are rules to prevent a team from exploiting the system. I just think that they are difficult to enforce. I’m much more convinced a couple players will be placed on LTIR leading up to Eichel’s return rather than Vegas trading away valuable players that they will want for the playoffs. We’ll see what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI am pretty sure I recall the Flames once icing only a 17- or 18-man roster precisely because of injuries and cap-constraints.

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[FlamesAddiction]

I am pretty sure I recall the Flames once icing only a 17- or 18-man roster precisely because of injuries and cap-constraints.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

That had to do with the timing being after the trade deadline, but before the playoffs, or something like that. It's not because the NHL didn't believe the player was actually injured.

[Macindoc]

I am pretty sure I recall the Flames once icing only a 17- or 18-man roster precisely because of injuries and cap-constraints.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

I believe that is why they introduced LTI relief in the first place. The Flames did not have any cap room left to replace their injured players, so they simply played without replacements.

[PeteMoss]

With Martinez and Bischoff on LTIR they would need to clear $3M before being able to activate Eichel.

But would also need to then free up ~$5.5M more to be able to activate Martinez.

So in total probably need to clear about $8.5M before the end of the season if nobody else goes on LTIR.

I believe Martinez is almost ready to come back as well.

[Gaskal]

They probably trade Smith (UFA) and Karlsson (too overpaid for a 3rd line C once Eichel is in the lineup)

[SuperMatt18]

Will be interesting to see what happens in Vegas this trade deadline / offseason.

I think you could see a scenario where all of Smith, Karlsson, and Marchessault are gone by the draft.

Which would be pretty crazy, as that would leave Shea Theodore and Brayden McNabb as the only regulars left from that inaugural cup final team from 17-18

[Fuzz]

Their GM has already said that "players will get injured", so I see more LTIR coming up for some of the underperforming players currently in their lineup. Everyone has nagging minor injuries throughout the season.
Haha, that almost reads like a mob threat. "And if it isn't on the ice, we'll work out a way!"

[djsFlames]

So when they shed that cap and the assets that it takes to shed it, will they be that much further ahead with Eichel?

I hope it sets them back.

[flambers]

So when they shed that cap and the assets that it takes to shed it, will they be that much further ahead with Eichel?

I hope it sets them back.

I am sure the Gm has a plan and its all mapped out, once he is healthy my guess a trade is made (i.e. same thing as with signing their #1 dman)

For sure Eichel will make their roster "better"

[OptimalTates]

I believe that is why they introduced LTI relief in the first place. The Flames did not have any cap room left to replace their injured players, so they simply played without replacements.

The issue that the Flames ran into was that the LTIR requires a player to miss 24 calendar days and 10 games. The Flames were not able to put any of their injured players on the LTIR at the end of the 2009 season because they needed the player available for the playoffs. Therefore they could not get any cap relief and were required to play with 15 players for the final 2 games of the season.

In 2013 the new CBA added the "Roster Emergency Exception" which more or less meant that a team in the Flames position would only have to play a single game shorthanded. After that one game playing with a short bench they could add any number of players making less than league minimum+100,000k (i.e. less than $850,000 in 2022) to get back up to the 18+2 roster limit without having cap implications.

[GreenLantern2814]

They probably trade Smith (UFA) and Karlsson (too overpaid for a 3rd line C once Eichel is in the lineup)

I’d take William Karlsson here without any hesitation.

So when they shed that cap and the assets that it takes to shed it, will they be that much further ahead with Eichel?

I hope it sets them back.

It won’t.

[dino7c]

Eichel hasn't played in over a year and had neck surgery

can't just a assume he will be as good or even better than ever the second he returns to the lineup

[Lanny_McDonald]

There are a lot of assumptions being made on Eichel and his impact. Have to wait and see what the surgery does to his play and whether he can get back to the level he was at. We don't even know if he's pain free at this point.

[Robbob]

I've always seen the Eichel acquisition as for the seasons beyond this one. Probably a pretty tall order to expect him to take off where he left off over a year ago.

[dino7c]

I've always seen the Eichel acquisition as for the seasons beyond this one. Probably a pretty tall order to expect him to take off where he left off over a year ago.

and they will 100% be dropping players before next season because of it

[Tkachukwagon]

1491858930896670722

Oh F*** off Vegas.

[FlamesAddiction]

Ready for game 1 of the playoffs no doubt.

But nothing to see here folks.

[ComixZone]

This is why people need to stop worrying about the Cap so much. The system has shown it can be exploited in this way, so this is how you do it going forward until the next CBA (maybe?) shuts down this usage of LTIR.

[Macho0978]

Monahan is a prime candidate to go on ltir for a few weeks. His back and hip history makes it doable

Get Dvorak and toffoli and have monahan as 4th line center for playoffs. Ruzicka as injury depth

Figure out cap in summer

[GioforPM]

Vegas without Stone is a pretty average team, with their current goaltending. I don ‘t think Eichel fills that gap TBH. I suppose they might think they can waddle into the POs and then just go full bore with Stone in. I suspect it’s not that easy. I mean, just because TBL did it with Point, Hedman and Vasilevsky doesn’t mean Vegas can with Eichel. And if someone legit goes down then they are in real trouble.

[Vinny01]

If anything this makes the Flames path to winning the division much easier. Would you rather play the second wildcard or third place team in the Pacific?

I think Vegas will limp by fine this way and should secure at worst the 2 seed. They are poised to do a ton of damage in the playoffs. You take the roster that is 1st place already and bring back Martinez and add Eichel.

[Snuffleupagus]

There are a lot of assumptions being made on Eichel and his impact. Have to wait and see what the surgery does to his play and whether he can get back to the level he was at. We don't even know if he's pain free at this point.
We don't but the doctors cleared him for full contact so one can assume he's fine.

[Locke]

Because of course.

The Ol' 'Tampa Flu.'

[Nsd1]

1491874658802712576

[Robbob]

Probably not ideal, even if it is for cap space, for one of their better players to have a legit back injury that will keep him out for a couple months. Nagging back injuries are probably not something that will just go away.

[The Yen Man]

Man, this thread is going to be so annoying to read, especially if Eichel comes back and is a dominant player again.

[Textcritic]

Man, this thread is going to be so annoying to read, especially if Eichel comes back and is a dominant player again.You have the power to read it, or not.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[transplant99]

Losing Stone hurts the Knights more than getting Eichel in the line up helps.

Perennial Selke finalists are a rare breed.

[Erick Estrada]

Man, this thread is going to be so annoying to read, especially if Eichel comes back and is a dominant player again.

It's good for the league to get another star player back in the fold. Sucks that it helps a divisional team but I think fans need to come to grips with the fact that there's probably little the Flames could have done to get him as the Sabres were more attracted to the players the Knights had to offer. Being a fan already involves enough high's and lows so I don't know why any fan would dwell on players that were never going to be a Flame like Kadri, Eichel, etc.

[dissentowner]

1491858930896670722

Oh F*** off Vegas.

I said they would pull this crap months ago and some posters were calling me out saying no way the league would allow it. Well, here we are. Such a bunch of broken bs.

[Moneyhands23]

This is just becoming a huge joke. IR is basically cap circumventing and allowing teams with deep pockets to go over.

[Groot]

Also from the article though...

Is this an avenue for the Vegas Golden Knights to move forward, and if so, will the NHL allow something like that to happen? You could see a lot of teams crying foul if Mark Stone were to go down with this injury now after playing for a significant period of time to then ultimately be activated for the playoffs using that loophole that some other teams have used.

[The Yen Man]

You have the power to read it, or not.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

True, but doesn't make it any less annoying to keep seeing the thread bumped up anytime something good or bad happens (similar to the Bennett thread). But at least Bennett was a Flame at one point, so I get the relevancy of that thread. Eichel was just a "what could have been" moment for the Flames, so we'll get a lot of handwringing on something that didn't even happen in the first place.

[dissentowner]

Also from the article though...

So? Do you think Vegas cares if other teams are angry about it? Do you seriously think the NHL is going to do anything to their new fav franchise? They will just take the word of the Golden Knights medical staff that they pay handsomely that Stone's back issues will not allow him to play. Of course after a few months of rest he will be good enough to go just in time for the playoffs. I said after TB pulled this last year we would see this happen every year with at least one team and here we go. I wonder who pulls it next year, maybe McDavid asks for a trade out of Edmonton and some contender will pull this and why not, the precedent has been set.

[MrMike]

Why can’t the NHL just keep the salary cap limit for the playoffs? Like it’s not hard enough for teams in smaller markets to compete already. I ####ing hate Vegas.

[Strange Brew]

Losing Stone hurts the Knights more than getting Eichel in the line up helps.

Perennial Selke finalists are a rare breed.

I agree that Stone is likely more valuable today than Eichel is. But in the playoffs they will have both and they are in no danger of missing the playoffs.

[transplant99]

I agree that Stone is likely more valuable today than Eichel is. But in the playoffs they will have both and they are in no danger of missing the playoffs.

Sure but it does make finishing 1st a lot more difficult if this happens.

You can be sure that opening at home every round is the goal there.

[Locke]

Losing Stone hurts the Knights more than getting Eichel in the line up helps.

Perennial Selke finalists are a rare breed.

Sure, but Vegas are in a good position to make the Playoffs and are now figuring they're going to get their shiny new toy into game-shape while staring at presumably having that self-safe Selke finalist healthy and rested for the playoffs.

Its a win/win for them but its total horse####.

[Enoch Root]

Sure but it does make finishing 1st a lot more difficult if this happens.

You can be sure that opening at home every round is the goal there.

I would think they're a lot more concerned about getting Eichel into the lineup without losing other assets, than they are about finishing first

[Enoch Root]

Why can’t the NHL just keep the salary cap limit for the playoffs? Like it’s not hard enough for teams in smaller markets to compete already. I ####ing hate Vegas.

Such a simple solution

[Jay Random]

Why can’t the NHL just keep the salary cap limit for the playoffs?

The salary cap limit actually is in effect for the playoffs – technically: it says so in the CBA. But because of the screwy way the cap is calculated from day to day, it's impossible to go over the cap in the playoffs.

No, I'm serious. Each day of the regular season, a team is deemed to pay its players 1/186 (or whatever number) of their total cap hit for the year. You're compliant as long as you have enough of your $81.5 million (or whatever number) left to pay your players for the remaining days of the season. On the first day of the season, you are dividing your money available by 186. On the last day, you are dividing by 1.

The day the playoffs begin, all the salaries have already been paid and you are dividing by zero. Your only restriction is the list of playoff-eligible players in your system, whom you had to fit under the cap at some point during the year.

The geniuses who negotiated this system apparently never heard that dividing by zero is a no-no in basic arithmetic. That is where the system is screwed up.

What would make sense is a system where you have to be under the cap each and every day of the season and nothing is banked. If the cap is $81.5 million, then on any given day you can't have more than $81.5 million in cap hits on your active roster. No more BS about saving up so you can suddenly have millions of extra cap room at the trade deadline. And definitely, no more BS about having as much cap hit as you like in the playoffs because the formula contains a divide-by-zero error.

Of course, this would be fiercely resisted by everyone in the game. The media want the spectacle of big names moving at the deadline. GMs want the extra wiggle room to bury their mistakes. Capologists want to keep their jobs, which otherwise would be so simple that a chimp with a calculator could do them.

To quote one of my favourite lines from ‘Yes, Prime Minister’:

‘It's actually a very good idea. It simply mustn't happen.’

[Fire]

Anyone else with the bad feeling that the Knights are winning the Stanley Cup this year?

[GioforPM]

Anyone else with the bad feeling that the Knights are winning the Stanley Cup this year?

Nope. Their goaltending isn’t up to it, for one thing.

[Jay Random]

Nope. Their goaltending isn’t up to it, for one thing.

Agreed. ‘Robin Lehner, starting goaltender for a Stanley Cup champion’ just does not have a plausible ring to it.

[Finger Cookin]

Man, so much of this thread forum is going to be so annoying to read, especially if Eichel comes back and is a dominant player anything ever happens.

Fixed that for you.

[transplant99]

I would think they're a lot more concerned about getting Eichel into the lineup without losing other assets, than they are about finishing first

Each home game in the playoffs generates North of 1.5 million dollars.

Finishing first matters a ton. Thats a potential 6 M if they go the distance.

Eichel will be in when he is ready to be in.

Why didn't Stone play last night? How did that work out for them?

Now do you believe they will get Stone to agree not to play for 2.5 months....so someone else can? Especially when it hurts them as a team?
.
So what is more likely?

He is actually injured or its all a big conspiracy?

[GioforPM]

Agreed. ‘Robin Lehner, starting goaltender for a Stanley Cup champion’ just does not have a plausible ring to it.

He’s been good, but he has gone steadily downhill for 3 straight seasons.

[Enoch Root]

Each home game in the playoffs generates North of 1.5 million dollars.

Finishing first matters a ton. Thats a potential 6 M if they go the distance.

Eichel will be in when he is ready to be in.

Why didn't Stone play last night? How did that work out for them?

Now do you believe they will get Stone to agree not to play for 2.5 months....so someone else can? Especially when it hurts them as a team?
.
So what is more likely?

He is actually injured or its all a big conspiracy?

Obviously. But you can't predict how many games per round, the key is getting as many rounds as possible. And having Eichel, without losing another key player helps that.

To be perfectly clear here though, I am not one of the conspiracy theorists that thinks the Knights will some =how circumvent the rules

[powderjunkie]

Sure but it does make finishing 1st a lot more difficult if this happens.

You can be sure that opening at home every round is the goal there.

I've never understood how starting at home is a benefit; 3/4 outcomes are a net loss (WW vs WL/LW/LL). 2-3-1-1 format always seemed more advantageous to me.

The money aspect of home-ice is noteworthy, but only an issue if series goes 5 or 7. Across NBA/MLB/NHL (https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/101063/statistics-of-7-game-playoff-series) 7 game series:

4 Game Series - 202 times - 16.5%
5 Game Series - 320 times - 26.23%
6 Game Series - 384 times - 31.47%
7 Game Series - 314 times - 25.73%

[Locke]

Each home game in the playoffs generates North of 1.5 million dollars.

Finishing first matters a ton. Thats a potential 6 M if they go the distance.

Eichel will be in when he is ready to be in.

Why didn't Stone play last night? How did that work out for them?

Now do you believe they will get Stone to agree not to play for 2.5 months....so someone else can? Especially when it hurts them as a team?
.
So what is more likely?

He is actually injured or its all a big conspiracy?

Well...it used to. No idea if that holds true anymore.

[Scroopy Noopers]

(*From October 2021*) Throwing your back out intercepting a puck is a really bad situation for a professional hockey player… yikes. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/1448862668895498245?s=20&t=DBukcF9UwfJVLmM3JG87tA

1448862668895498245

But you know, he’s probably just faking it :rolleyes:
He clearly has been fighting through a longtime problem like most NHL’rs

[dissentowner]

(*From October 2021*) Throwing your back out intercepting a puck is a really bad situation for a professional hockey player… yikes. https://mobile.twitter.com/Sportsnet/status/1448862668895498245?s=20&t=DBukcF9UwfJVLmM3JG87tA

1448862668895498245

But you know, he’s probably just faking it :rolleyes:
He clearly has been fighting through a longtime problem like most NHL’rs

Nobody said he was faking it but how come if he has been fighting through it all this long time he suddenly coincidentally can't fight through it anymore at the exact same time his team needs cap relief? Coincidentally, I bet he can fight through it come game 1 of the playoffs.

[Jay Random]

Nobody said he was faking it but how come if he has been fighting through it all this long time he suddenly coincidentally can't fight through it anymore at the exact same time his team needs cap relief? Coincidentally, I bet he can fight through it come game 1 of the playoffs.

Eichel isn't ready to play yet, and Stone has not been placed on LTIR. A coincidence requires at least two things to happen at the same time, and so far, neither one of them has.

[dissentowner]

Eichel isn't ready to play yet, and Stone has not been placed on LTIR. A coincidence requires at least two things to happen at the same time, and so far, neither one of them has.

But they will. Wait and see.

[powderjunkie]

Must be playing 4D chess to fake it down 3-1 with 32 mins left in a game to avoid any suspicion.

[Jay Random]

But they will. Wait and see.

How about you wait and see before proclaiming it as a certainty?

[dissentowner]

How about you wait and see before proclaiming it as a certainty?

Because it is a certainty. Why would they not do that?

[Jay Random]

Because it is a certainty. Why would they not do that?

It isn't a certainty. We don't know what his injury is, we don't know how long he needs to be out of the lineup, and we most certainly don't know that the league will cooperate in faking an injury so one team can get an advantage over the other 31. Is that enough uncertainty for you? Apparently not.

We also don't know that Stone himself will cooperate in that. I bloody well wouldn't; I'd want to play as soon as possible.

The Vegas Golden Knights have precisely two players this season who are at a PPG, and both have already missed substantial time to injury. You really think they'll voluntarily sit one of them for another 34 games so they can activate another player who (a) is hardly any better offensively, (b) is notably worse defensively, and (c) isn't even expected to play for weeks yet?

Pull the other one; it's got bells on.

[GioforPM]

I will say, as much as I tend to dismiss the conspiracy theories, a back injury would be the easiest to fudge without surgery etc.

[Roof-Daddy]

Once Eichel is ready to play, Vegas will use the LTIR without a doubt (IMO) for the remainder of the season, then we'll see what's what for game 1 of the playoffs.

But don't be the least bit surprised when ALL their key players are back, healthy and raring to go when the puck drops for round 1, game 1.

[FlamesAddiction]

Once Eichel is ready to play, Vegas will use the LTIR without a doubt (IMO) for the remainder of the season, then we'll see what's what for game 1 of the playoffs.

But don't be the least bit surprised when ALL their key players are back, healthy and raring to go when the puck drops for round 1, game 1.

McPhee even said right after the trade that they weren't worried about cap space because they didn't expect that the team would be fully healthy by the time Eichel comes back.

People talk like this tactic is a crazy conspiracy theory and so difficult to engineer, but it's really not. It's an exploit that Tampa revealed last season and under the right circumstances can be replicated quite easily depending one how resolved the league is police it.

[Roof-Daddy]

McPhee even said right after the trade that they weren't worried about cap space because they didn't expect that the team would be fully healthy by the time Eichel comes back.

People talk like this tactic is a crazy conspiracy theory and so difficult to engineer, but it's really not. It's an exploit that Tampa revealed last season and under the right circumstances can be replicated quite easily depending one how resolved the league is police it.

Totally agree, yet you have some here continuing to act like it's not really a thing.

If the Flames end up getting KO'ed by Vegas in the playoffs, with full, healthy, $91 million roster I might have to take a break from fandom for a while. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for this guy.

[dino7c]

McPhee even said right after the trade that they weren't worried about cap space because they didn't expect that the team would be fully healthy by the time Eichel comes back.

People talk like this tactic is a crazy conspiracy theory and so difficult to engineer, but it's really not. It's an exploit that Tampa revealed last season and under the right circumstances can be replicated quite easily depending one how resolved the league is police it.

Kucherov had an actual surgery at least...this would be next level cheating

although I don't think Vegas is as out of the woods as some of you think to play the rest of the season without Stone

[GreenLantern2814]

Kucherov had an actual surgery at least...this would be next level cheating

although I don't think Vegas is as out of the woods as some of you think to play the rest of the season without Stone

Agreed - Playing without Stone for 30 games, regardless of health, is a not—insignificant punishment for failing to be cap compliant.

There has to be some sort of games played requirement to qualify for a playoff roster moving forward.

You can’t just stash an extra star for a season.

How bout this - games played requirements to make a playoff roster. You can’t play 0 regular season games and be magically healthy for round 1.

Salary tier dictates the amount of time missed.

Ie if you make less than $3M, you can come back round 1.

$3-6M round 2.

$6.1-$10M round 3.

$10.1+ round 4.

If you were really so hurt that you couldn’t play regular season hockey for 6 months, you’ll probably need those extra three rounds of recovery anyway.

[dino7c]

In beer league you need to play 40% of the games to make playoffs...in the NHL its zero

There is some irony that Tampa actually brought it up at a GM meeting five years or so ago after Chicago exploited the rules and got zero support

[FlamesAddiction]

Kucherov had an actual surgery at least...this would be next level cheating

although I don't think Vegas is as out of the woods as some of you think to play the rest of the season without Stone

Kucherov was injured, but other players get the same kind of injury and play through it and have surgery in the offseason. I have no doubt that Kucherov opted for the surgery earlier to help Tampa stack the team for the playoffs. I also think they could have activated him earlier and chose not to in order to stay cap compliant. I'm not even mad. It's within the rules and they executed the plan perfectly. They were a good enough team that they didn't need to worry about the regular season. Who wouldn't do that for the team if they asked? I think fans overly romanticize being a player and just playing for the love of the game, but for these guys, it's a business and their business plan is to win a championship for their club. They will do whatever it takes.

Do I think it debases the game somewhat? Yeah, I do. Do I blame them for doing it? Not really. Should the NHL fix it for the future... most definitely.

[Pointman]

Pardon my idiocy, but was the point of applying the cap only for regular season? It was done intentionally so that teams can go over the cap for playoffs. Why?

[Pointman]

The salary cap limit actually is in effect for the playoffs – technically: it says so in the CBA. But because of the screwy way the cap is calculated from day to day, it's impossible to go over the cap in the playoffs.

No, I'm serious. Each day of the regular season, a team is deemed to pay its players 1/186 (or whatever number) of their total cap hit for the year. You're compliant as long as you have enough of your $81.5 million (or whatever number) left to pay your players for the remaining days of the season. On the first day of the season, you are dividing your money available by 186. On the last day, you are dividing by 1.

The day the playoffs begin, all the salaries have already been paid and you are dividing by zero. Your only restriction is the list of playoff-eligible players in your system, whom you had to fit under the cap at some point during the year.

The geniuses who negotiated this system apparently never heard that dividing by zero is a no-no in basic arithmetic. That is where the system is screwed up.

What would make sense is a system where you have to be under the cap each and every day of the season and nothing is banked. If the cap is $81.5 million, then on any given day you can't have more than $81.5 million in cap hits on your active roster. No more BS about saving up so you can suddenly have millions of extra cap room at the trade deadline. And definitely, no more BS about having as much cap hit as you like in the playoffs because the formula contains a divide-by-zero error.

Of course, this would be fiercely resisted by everyone in the game. The media want the spectacle of big names moving at the deadline. GMs want the extra wiggle room to bury their mistakes. Capologists want to keep their jobs, which otherwise would be so simple that a chimp with a calculator could do them.

To quote one of my favourite lines from ‘Yes, Prime Minister’:

‘It's actually a very good idea. It simply mustn't happen.’

So the league essentially wants stacked teams in playoffs. Because in the end if the day this is what fans want. If NHL enforce cap in playoffs, more stars would watch playoffs from home. So Tampa and Vegas didn't cheat. They didn't even exploit a loophole. They did exactly what the league encourage them to do

[GioforPM]

Kucherov was injured, but other players get the same kind of injury and play through it and have surgery in the offseason. I have no doubt that Kucherov opted for the surgery earlier to help Tampa stack the team for the playoffs. I also think they could have activated him earlier and chose not to in order to stay cap compliant. I'm not even mad. It's within the rules and they executed the plan perfectly. They were a good enough team that they didn't need to worry about the regular season. Who wouldn't do that for the team if they asked? I think fans overly romanticize being a player and just playing for the love of the game, but for these guys, it's a business and their business plan is to win a championship for their club. They will do whatever it takes.

Do I think it debases the game somewhat? Yeah, I do. Do I blame them for doing it? Not really. Should the NHL fix it for the future... most definitely.

Kucherov did have surgery in the offseason. Not that early but still off season. It’s almost certain they held him out for a couple weeks after his full recovery. But that is pretty minor IMO. And if TBL planned the whole thing they were pretty gutsy - playing an entire season without their best player, a league MVP. And they didn’t even sign some elite player with the cap room.

But if Stone stays out without surgery and for even longer, it will be more blatant, and I bet the rules get changes. Especially since it is to add a $10M player.

[powderjunkie]

In beer league you need to play 40% of the games to make playoffs...in the NHL its zero

There is some irony that Tampa actually brought it up at a GM meeting five years or so ago after Chicago exploited the rules and got zero support

This is the answer, and it doesn't even have to be that they play __% of games, just count against the cap for __% of days.

[metroneck]

Am I oversimplifying, or would the roster being dressed need to be cap compliant, per playoff game, solve the problem.

[GioforPM]

Am I oversimplifying, or would the roster being dressed need to be cap compliant, per playoff game, solve the problem.

Yeah, which is more generous than regular season since the latter includes black aces.

[OutOfTheCube]

Honestly watching these last couple months of Sabres hockey I’m not sure the Knights are better off with Eichel instead of Tuch and Krebs, let alone whatever other finagling they have to do to get cap compliant.

[GioforPM]

Honestly watching these last couple months of Sabres hockey I’m not sure the Knights are better off with Eichel instead of Tuch and Krebs, let alone whatever other finagling they have to do to get cap compliant.

Tuch is PPG I think?

[OutOfTheCube]

Tuch is PPG I think?

Over a PPG after today, and he’s an absolute stud. I haven’t seen a player as big and strong and fast as him on the Sabres in… ever? Just wins pick battles all over the place, scores nice goals, fantastic player.

Krebs has been no slouch either after a slower start, he has excellent vision and hockey IQ, makes a lot of slick little plays and passes. You can see the potential on the ice already translating, I think he’s gonna be good.

[Pointman]

Am I oversimplifying, or would the roster being dressed need to be cap compliant, per playoff game, solve the problem.

There's common misunderstanding about how cap works, because the word "cap" is misleading. People naturally think of a cap as, well, cap - but it works more like a chest with money. At the beginning of a season each franchise is given a chest with the same amount of money. During the season teams pay their players with this money. As long, as money remaining in the chest is enough to pay players for the rest of the season, team is under a cap. Once the season is over, there's no more salary to pay to the players. Hence no matter who you have on the roster, you are "under the cap" (or rather have enough money in the chest to pay them).

[Jay Random]

There's common misunderstanding about how cap works, because the word "cap" is misleading. People naturally think of a cap as, well, cap - but it works more like a chest with money. At the beginning of a season each franchise is given a chest with the same amount of money. During the season teams pay their players with this money. As long, as money remaining in the chest is enough to pay players for the rest of the season, team is under a cap. Once the season is over, there's no more salary to pay to the players. Hence no matter who you have on the roster, you are "under the cap" (or rather have enough money in the chest to pay them).

Which, as I've said before, is precisely the problem. As soon as you hit the playoffs you are dividing by zero and the cap becomes meaningless – even though the CBA states that it technically still applies.

[PeteMoss]

Vegas aren't exactly sitting pretty in terms of playoff positioning that sitting out Stone isn't a risk for them.

Do they still probably make it without him - yes - because you'd need the Oilers or the Stars to pass them (along with the Ducks and Kings) but its not a sure thing.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I actually want to see a massive crash for Vegas more than I want to see Edmonton miss. I don't hate many teams, but Vegas is at the top of my list.

[Textcritic]

I actually want to see a massive crash for Vegas more than I want to see Edmonton miss. I don't hate many teams, but Vegas is at the top of my list.A massive crash by VGK would be fun because of how consistently good they have been for several years now. Edmonton missing is just a given.

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https://i.gifer.com/origin/da/da4b7653f2b313ed247408b94c819b83_w200.gif

[dissentowner]

It isn't a certainty. We don't know what his injury is, we don't know how long he needs to be out of the lineup, and we most certainly don't know that the league will cooperate in faking an injury so one team can get an advantage over the other 31. Is that enough uncertainty for you? Apparently not.

We also don't know that Stone himself will cooperate in that. I bloody well wouldn't; I'd want to play as soon as possible.

The Vegas Golden Knights have precisely two players this season who are at a PPG, and both have already missed substantial time to injury. You really think they'll voluntarily sit one of them for another 34 games so they can activate another player who (a) is hardly any better offensively, (b) is notably worse defensively, and (c) isn't even expected to play for weeks yet?

Pull the other one; it's got bells on.

So, what were you saying earlier?

[FlamesAddiction]

"It will take as long as it takes"

In other words, until another player can be put on the LTIR or game 1 of the playoffs.

[stemit14]

So how far over the salary cap will they be come playoffs when Stone will magically be ready just in time? $20 million?


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[Jiri Hrdina]

I view this as good news. He's a great player and the NHL is better with him in it. I hope he returns, and is healthy.
And I hope the Flames beat the Vegas every time they play them.

[FanIn80]

This is still the biggest slice of BS since... I dunno, someone actually sliced up some BS or something.

[dino7c]

Stone in game one of the playoffs

https://c.tenor.com/CatOj6N5za0AAAAC/kevin-nash-jim.gif

[1_Flames_Fan]

This is such cap circumvention garbage. I hope he plays awful. Don't like it one bit.

[GioforPM]

Stone > Eichel IMO. Now maybe they don’t care about their PO position. I can’t see them falling right out without Stone, but what if someone else in the top 6 gets hurt, or Eichel sucks.

[stemit14]

This was so predictable. Some people tried to argue that they won’t be able to do it and that they can’t just use LTIR at a whim… it is way too convenient. People who consider it a coincidence or look at it as completely above board are really trying hard to make excuses for Vegas.

Hated that Tampa got away with it. Hate even more that Vegas is going to get away with it.


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