COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[getbak]

No more carrots, only sticks. In November, Delta Airlines will begin charging unvaccinated staff $200 per month to stay on the company's health plan...

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Also, it's funny that they called it the B.1.617.2 variant, rather than the Delta variant.

[tvp2003]

Good on Delta (!) Airlines.

And $40,000 per person? Good, let’s start putting some numbers out there about the real cost of Covid. How many of these hospitalizations could have been avoided? Kenney and Hinshaw like numbers right?

[Fuzz]

It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.

[EldrickOnIce]

It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.

Excellent point.
Pretty sure the public good is less their agenda than the bottom line, but the effect is growing rapidly regardless, across a broad business base for health reasons. I'm an independent contractor. Several entities to whom I provide services have, in the last 2 days, requested proof of vaccination. This is so they can ensure their clients (with whom i/we have direct contact) the highest level of their personal protection/safety possible. You won't see news stories on this but it is happening everywhere in America right now.

[Hot_Flatus]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-sees-big-jump-in-vaccinations-after-covid-19-vaccine-passport-1.6153677

A similar 200% increase in vaccination appointment bookings here in AB, mainly in the sub 40 age group would go a long way.

At some point is our province going to stop being so painfully obtuse and get with the program? Of course not. That would require an ounce of leadership and care for doing the right thing. Instead we might eventually get a self serve, printable paper card that is maybe going to be useable. Bravo Kenney.

We are stuck with way too many people that only care about themselves in this province who won't step up and get vaccinated unless there are some real pressures to do so and I'm tired of being dragged back into an unnecessary mess because of their selfish choices.

[opendoor]

Unfortunately it's not the under 40 crowd in BC that needs to get vaccinated to protect the hospital system. It's the unvaccinated 50+ year olds that are by far the biggest liability. This chart is based on Israel's recent numbers, but it clearly shows how stratified the risk of severe disease is among the age groups:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/cf58cd_dfefb9be162646c898355a052ebd5e9d%7Emv2.png/v1/fill/w_1291,h_533,al_c,q_95/cf58cd_dfefb9be162646c898355a052ebd5e9d%7Emv2.webp

Based on those numbers, the 200K 50-59 year olds and 115K 60-69 year olds who aren't vaccinated in BC would be expected to take up about 30x the hospital beds as the 362K unvaccinated 20-29 year olds. Yeah, vaccinating more young people will reduce spread somewhat, but ultimately the people at risk of being hospitalized are the ones that need to be vaccinated the most.

[Hot_Flatus]

Unfortunately it's not the under 40 crowd in BC that needs to get vaccinated to protect the hospital system. It's the unvaccinated 50+ year olds that are by far the biggest liability. This chart is based on Israel's recent numbers, but it clearly shows how stratified the risk of severe disease is among the age groups:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/cf58cd_dfefb9be162646c898355a052ebd5e9d%7Emv2.png/v1/fill/w_1291,h_533,al_c,q_95/cf58cd_dfefb9be162646c898355a052ebd5e9d%7Emv2.webp

Based on those numbers, the 200K 50-59 year olds and 115K 60-69 year olds who aren't vaccinated in BC would be expected to take up about 30x the hospital beds as the 362K unvaccinated 20-29 year olds. Yeah, vaccinating more young people will reduce spread somewhat, but ultimately the people at risk of being hospitalized are the ones that need to be vaccinated the most.

BC has better full vaccination by almost every metric than Alberta and many other provinces, and superior coverage among those under 40. The 60+ demographic is also sitting well over 80% fully vaxxed in the province (increasing with age). That age is more likely to suffer severe outcomes, but you're comparing already great coverage to shameful coverage in some of the younger demographics.

The younger people that are unvaxxed and out living life the most, are the ones causing these 4th wave surges, that is not even up for debate. When you have uptake numbers in the 25-35 crowd so shamefully low, it's obvious you need to penalize people in order to further raise uptake, and a vaccine card is the way to do it.

The fact appointments are surging after this announcement is pretty clear proof that it works and now is the time to do it before winter hits.

[opendoor]

BC has better full vaccination by almost every metric than Alberta and many other provinces, and superior coverage among those under 40. The 60+ demographic is also sitting well over 80% fully vaxxed in the province (increasing with age). That age is more likely to suffer severe outcomes, but you're comparing already great coverage to shameful coverage in some of the younger demographics.

The younger people that are unvaxxed and out living life the most, are the ones causing these 4th wave surges, that is not even up for debate. When you have uptake numbers in the 25-35 crowd so shamefully low, it's obvious you need to penalize people in order to further raise uptake, and a vaccine card is the way to do it.

The fact appointments are surging after this announcement is pretty clear proof that it works and now is the time to do it before winter hits.

I'm not saying that more vaccinations aren't a good thing, but with the way COVID spreads, bumping the vaccination rate for people in their 20s or 30s will only really have a fairly minimal effect on hospitalizations when there are still hundreds of thousands of people in age ranges that have 10-30% hospitalization rates that are sitting unvaccinated.

And in Alberta, the adult age cohorts that have seen the biggest increase in cases since the start of this month have been the older groups:

20-29: 2.74x
30-59: 3.47x
60-79: 5.73x
80+: 9.5x

When you need about 30-50 cases among 20-29 year olds to match the hospitalization risk of 1 case among 60-79 year olds, it's pretty clear where the risk lies. Even just bumping the vaccination rate among 50+ year olds to UK levels would have vastly more impact on hospitals than vaccinating every single person under 40. If vaccine passports aren't going to do that, then there needs to be even more coercive measures for the at-risk population, because that unvaccinated 50+ group is essentially what stands between living relatively normally with a functional healthcare system and not having that.

[EldrickOnIce]

^ do we have similar age stats available for hospitalizations?

[opendoor]

^ do we have similar age stats available for hospitalizations?
I don't think Alberta breaks down hospitalization by age over time, so not really. But the hospitalization rate by age has remained pretty steady, so you can sort of infer that from the case numbers.

That's not to say that 20-39 year olds aren't still making up the bulk of the cases (their % of cases is nearly double their share of the population), but the hospital burden is so disparate that that's not really the significant risk at this point.

The UK for instance has a lower uptake among U40 for vaccination than Alberta (largely due to rollout, I expect it'll end up higher) and they haven't even really started vaccinating anyone under 18, but because they have such high vaccination numbers in their at-risk population, they're doing fine even though they're seeing a lot of spread. They got up to the equivalent of 3K cases per day for Alberta's population (about 4x Alberta's current level), yet because they have ~95% of 50+ year olds fully vaccinated, their hospitalization numbers peaked at the equivalent of 400 patients for Alberta's population, which is a level that Alberta is probably already set to hit once you allow for a week's lag from the current case levels.

[GGG]

It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.

You see it in the NFL as well which is the league that puts $$$ over athletes all the time coming out with the strongest policies.

[Bunk]

From Shandro:

I would like to inform Albertans that a new section has been added to the @youralberta website with information on accessing proof of vaccination records.

alberta.ca/proof-of-vacci… 1/8

Albertans have been asking more questions about proof of vaccination in recent days so we have posted answers to some of the most common questions online.

To be clear, the Alberta government has not and will not mandate a so-called ‘vaccine passport’ for domestic use. 2/8

Other jurisdictions (provinces/countries) may have different requirements which the Alberta govt does not control.

Albertans already receive proof of vaccination when they get their shot, be it from AHS, pharmacies, or a doctor. 3/8

But some Albertans, for whatever reason, are still hoping to receive a more formal document (ex. for international travel).


Alberta MyHealth Records was launched in March 2019, providing Albertans with secure digital access to their personal health records. 4/8

800,000 Albertans already have MyHealth accounts.

Thousands have signed up in recent days, 2,000 yesterday alone. You too can sign up at myhealth.alberta.ca 5/8

While not specific to COVID-19 or vaccines, MyHealth has long included vaccination records – not just for COVID19 – as part of Albertans’ health records.

Albertans can then print a hard copy of the record or display the vaccination record through the mobile app. 6/8

Finally, they may take a screenshot to display upon request.

We are working on making MyHealth Records more accessible for Albertans. Soon, Albertans will be able to print a conveniently sized paper card. 7/8

If you have not already received both doses of a #COVID19AB vaccine, you can book an appointment at alberta.ca/vaccine.

Please consider doing so.

95% of ICU patients since June were either unvaccinated or only partially vaccinated. 8/8

What an effing dick

[getbak]

I went to the "information" page and at the bottom it has a "Was this page helpful?" link. I clicked "No".

When it asked what went wrong, I said "Jason Kenney became our Premier and appointed Tyler Shandro as the Minister of Health." If nothing else, I hope it will give some poor soul who works for the government a chuckle.

[Fuzz]

To miss the obvious correlation between so many people signing up, and the need for proof of vaccination is mind boggling. He can't be that thick, can he?

[D as in David]

To miss the obvious correlation between so many people signing up, and the need for proof of vaccination is mind boggling. He can't be that thick, can he?I'm pretty certain he can be.

[Hot_Flatus]

I'm not saying that more vaccinations aren't a good thing, but with the way COVID spreads, bumping the vaccination rate for people in their 20s or 30s will only really have a fairly minimal effect on hospitalizations when there are still hundreds of thousands of people in age ranges that have 10-30% hospitalization rates that are sitting unvaccinated.

And in Alberta, the adult age cohorts that have seen the biggest increase in cases since the start of this month have been the older groups:

20-29: 2.74x
30-59: 3.47x
60-79: 5.73x
80+: 9.5x

When you need about 30-50 cases among 20-29 year olds to match the hospitalization risk of 1 case among 60-79 year olds, it's pretty clear where the risk lies. Even just bumping the vaccination rate among 50+ year olds to UK levels would have vastly more impact on hospitals than vaccinating every single person under 40. If vaccine passports aren't going to do that, then there needs to be even more coercive measures for the at-risk population, because that unvaccinated 50+ group is essentially what stands between living relatively normally with a functional healthcare system and not having that.

There just aren't 100s of thousands of unvaccinated people in the 60+ demographic in AB. In most cases the population is 90% fully immunized and you're simply not going to get that number to 100% for a variety of reasons. Even in the 50-60 range, there are simply not 100s of thousands unvaccinated either, with AB sitting at just over 80% uptake with 2nd dose numbers rising every day.

The 19-35 demo in the province is the clear issue that is leading to the cases spreading into the younger and older populations as they do have the 100s of thousands of unvaccinated remaining, and are the ones spreading the virus by being the most being socially active.

The Increase rates you list are pretty meaningless as well since the caseload in the younger demographics wouldn't have increased as much having higher caseloads to begin with months prior (and for most of the spring).

There is certainly a point to be made that 19-35 is far less likely to suffer severe illness, however, limiting spread and the need to shut down business again should be the goal. To do this right, you don't target a few thousand remaining boomers who are for the most part living in a smaller bubble to begin with. You put out a vaccine passport to make life incredibly difficult on the selfish citizens still not getting the jab that think the worst outcome of Covid is that they feel bad for a day or two. More often than not they still don't consider passing this along to someone who may die or become seriously ill. Vaccinated or not.

The evidence is clear across the provinces and countries willing to put out a passport. Uptake immediately increases significantly, and will in turn keep many more people safe and the provinces open.

[opendoor]

There just aren't 100s of thousands of unvaccinated people in the 60+ demographic in AB. In most cases the population is 90% fully immunized and you're simply not going to get that number to 100% for a variety of reasons. Even in the 50-60 range, there are simply not 100s of thousands unvaccinated either, with AB sitting at just over 80% uptake with 2nd dose numbers rising every day.


In Alberta there are 115K 60+ year olds that aren't fully vaccinated and another 140K 50-59 year olds. That represents a pretty significant hospitalization risk if cases get out of control or there's continuous widespread infections in the coming months.

The 19-35 demo in the province is the clear issue that is leading to the cases spreading into the younger and older populations as they do have the 100s of thousands of unvaccinated remaining, and are the ones spreading the virus by being the most being socially active.

The Increase rates you list are pretty meaningless as well since the caseload in the younger demographics wouldn't have increased as much having higher caseloads to begin with months prior (and for most of the spring).

There is certainly a point to be made that 19-35 is far less likely to suffer severe illness, however, limiting spread and the need to shut down business again should be the goal. To do this right, you don't target a few thousand remaining boomers who are for the most part living in a smaller bubble to begin with. You put out a vaccine passport to make life incredibly difficult on the selfish citizens still not getting the jab that think the worst outcome of Covid is that they feel bad for a day or two. More often than not they still don't consider passing this along to someone who may die or become seriously ill. Vaccinated or not.

The evidence is clear across the provinces and countries willing to put out a passport. Uptake immediately increases significantly, and will in turn keep many more people safe and the provinces open.I guess I'm just of the mind that because basically nowhere has managed to maintain low cases levels while returning to normal (regardless of vaccination rate), that a huge part of the population is going to be exposed this fall/winter. So that means the most important thing is getting the people most likely to end up in hospital vaccinated. If a vaccine passport doesn't do that for that age cohort, then we need to figure something else out or we run the risk of having the shut everything down again if it keeps spreading widely.

[BoLevi]

In Alberta there are 115K 60+ year olds that aren't fully vaccinated and another 140K 50-59 year olds. That represents a pretty significant hospitalization risk if cases get out of control or there's continuous widespread infections in the coming months.

I guess I'm just of the mind that because basically nowhere has managed to maintain low cases levels while returning to normal (regardless of vaccination rate), that a huge part of the population is going to be exposed this fall/winter. So that means the most important thing is getting the people most likely to end up in hospital vaccinated. If a vaccine passport doesn't do that for that age cohort, then we need to figure something else out or we run the risk of having the shut everything down again if it keeps spreading widely.

I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?

[Knut]

I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?

Giving Vaccine-loaded Dart guns to the vaccinated. As soon as they find someone that is unvaccinate they shoot them. It would devolve into a giant hunt ! Would be fun.

[opendoor]

I am interested in what your views are on getting the last remaining people vaccinated?

We need to move from education -> advocating -> some sort of passport -> coercion. (I don't think we can ever cross the rubicon of forcing vaccinations physically).

So what steps would you take to protect the hospitals should vaccination rates not climb to a level where the hospitals are inherently protected?
I don't think there is a good answer. To start, I'd probably just make it a bigger pain in the ass to be unvaccinated. So require regular testing (at the person's own expense) for basically all job sites and mandate vaccination or extremely strict (and likely expensive) testing protocols for pretty much every public service employee. And if this turns into a continual problem (say protection against severe disease wanes after a few years), then maybe treat it more like smoking by introducing a quasi surcharge for unvaccinated people (something like a $1K tax rebate for being vaccinated while simultaneously increasing the lowest bracket's tax rate to cover the difference).

And also much stricter enforcement/heavier penalties for breaking health regulations.There are already a bunch of businesses in BC who are publicly saying they won't take part in vaccine passports. Is anything going to happen to them? Based on what we saw with restaurants in Vancouver that continued in-person dining when it was shut down, probably not. But if this was treated with the same seriousness as say, regularly serving minors alcohol, it'd probably be a lot different. And the same with individuals. There was that moron in Vancouver who was repeatedly shut down for running a nightclub/strip club out of his penthouse during the strictest shutdowns in January. The only consequences he faced were some fines, 1 day in jail, and 18 months probation. If the federal government can fine people $5.7K for accidentally having the wrong type of COVID test before re-entering the country, surely provinces can enact harsh penalties for people who blatantly and willfully break health regulations.

[BoLevi]

I don't think there is a good answer. To start, I'd probably just make it a bigger pain in the ass to be unvaccinated. So require regular testing (at the person's own expense) for basically all job sites and mandate vaccination or extremely strict (and likely expensive) testing protocols for pretty much every public service employee. And if this turns into a continual problem (say protection against severe disease wanes after a few years), then maybe treat it more like smoking by introducing a quasi surcharge for unvaccinated people (something like a $1K tax rebate for being vaccinated while simultaneously increasing the lowest bracket's tax rate to cover the difference).

And also much stricter enforcement/heavier penalties for breaking health regulations.There are already a bunch of businesses in BC who are publicly saying they won't take part in vaccine passports. Is anything going to happen to them? Based on what we saw with restaurants in Vancouver that continued in-person dining when it was shut down, probably not. But if this was treated with the same seriousness as say, regularly serving minors alcohol, it'd probably be a lot different. And the same with individuals. There was that moron in Vancouver who was repeatedly shut down for running a nightclub/strip club out of his penthouse during the strictest shutdowns in January. The only consequences he faced were some fines, 1 day in jail, and 18 months probation. If the federal government can fine people $5.7K for accidentally having the wrong type of COVID test before re-entering the country, surely provinces can enact harsh penalties for people who blatantly and willfully break health regulations.

Sounds like a very good way to proceed.

[sureLoss]

1431320398252191754

[Canada 02]

in the US, starting to hear some health insurers will stop covering covid hospitalization and treatment for unvaccinated

also, some employers charging high health care premiums for unvaccinated, just like they do for smokers

[Hockeyguy15]

Moderna approved for 12-17. Next up under 12, and make it snappy.

[BoLevi]

in the US, starting to hear some health insurers will stop covering covid hospitalization and treatment for unvaccinated

also, some employers charging high health care premiums for unvaccinated, just like they do for smokers

Interesting that a free market healthcare system (such as it is) can accomplish create a carrot and a stick. We're pretty much just stick with the carrot and some relatively benign restrictions on the unvaccinated.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

1431320398252191754
I wish they'd limit this to outcomes since there were a meaningful number of vaccinated people. When did we hit 20% of first dose? Mid-April? This starts at December 14, 2020. Of course the vast majority of people who were hospitalized between December and March weren't vaccinated, because hardly anyone was vaccinated at that point.

Then you need to do a separate chart starting around June 1 to compare unvaccinated people to fully vaccinated people because hardly anyone was fully vaccinated until around that time.

I am sure the results would still be highly supportive of vaccination but these ones are easy to dismiss if you're anti-vaccination or "vaccine hesitant" or whatever we're calling these twats at this point.

[Harry Lime]

By putting spin on numbers this way, it makes it harder to trust the people putting out the message. I can't see how they can miss that this inst working in their favour, and they should just put out the unadorned numbers.

Hospitalizations and deaths of vaccinated vs unvaccinated from the arrival of the Delta wouldn't be that different, and the small shift would probably make vaccinated people a little more careful in their choices.

Stop playing games and just roll out facts, with commentary on those facts. You know, journalism.

[DFO]

Tough one

Xx30E9Bi-C8

[DFO]

Info for those on the fence

v8RpPeXCySw

[Nyah]

Alberta is just about at 70% fully vaccinated for those who are eligible. That's honestly better than I though it would be, so I'll take it as a positive. Hopefully they get the kids going soon.

[GordonBlue]

The U of A Students Union, Graduate Students Union, and Alumni Association are having a contest for students that get vaccinated.

The prizes include free tuition, so that's really smart of them.

[MoneyGuy]

The U of A Students Union, Graduate Students Union, and Alumni Association are having a contest for students that get vaccinated.

The prizes include free tuition, so that's really smart of them.

Is the university absorbing the cost?

It’s a shame that people have to be bribed to do the right thing.

[GordonBlue]

Is the university absorbing the cost?

It’s a shame that people have to be bribed to do the right thing.

sounds like the alumni association may be. it's not clear.

[V]

I wish they'd limit this to outcomes since there were a meaningful number of vaccinated people. When did we hit 20% of first dose? Mid-April? This starts at December 14, 2020. Of course the vast majority of people who were hospitalized between December and March weren't vaccinated, because hardly anyone was vaccinated at that point.

Then you need to do a separate chart starting around June 1 to compare unvaccinated people to fully vaccinated people because hardly anyone was fully vaccinated until around that time.

I am sure the results would still be highly supportive of vaccination but these ones are easy to dismiss if you're anti-vaccination or "vaccine hesitant" or whatever we're calling these twats at this point.

The Alberta website does not make it easy at all to try to do your own math, but I went through the entire month of July, and on the average day, 78.96% of everyone in the ICU on any given day were unvaccinated. 4.06% were fully vaccinated over 14 days earlier. They make it too hard for me to do any further analysis, but that probably gets the message across.

The numbers aren't as good as what you see in that tweet, obviously, but I think it still tells the same story. The other issue with it, though, is as more people get fully vaccinated, a larger percentage of people in the ICU will be fully vaccinated. For example, the percentage of fully vaccinated people in the ICU doubled from the start of July to the end of July, since that's when a lot of people were fully vaccinated. It's too bad they've chosen to tell the stats in percentages, because showing the stats as a per 100k population would tell the story a lot more clearly.

[TorqueDog]

The Alberta website does not make it easy at all to try to do your own math, but I went through the entire month of July, and on the average day, 78.96% of everyone in the ICU on any given day were unvaccinated. 4.06% were fully vaccinated over 14 days earlier. They make it too hard for me to do any further analysis, but that probably gets the message across.

The numbers aren't as good as what you see in that tweet, obviously, but I think it still tells the same story. The other issue with it, though, is as more people get fully vaccinated, a larger percentage of people in the ICU will be fully vaccinated. For example, the percentage of fully vaccinated people in the ICU doubled from the start of July to the end of July, since that's when a lot of people were fully vaccinated. It's too bad they've chosen to tell the stats in percentages, because showing the stats as a per 100k population would tell the story a lot more clearly.The website and the data export are pretty unwieldy. I don't envy the people who put together the maps and stats on Reddit, though they're damn good at it.

[getbak]

Boosters! Get your boosters!

1432453238716985353

[getbak]

Also, the long-promised unified booking site will be launching next week...

1431393765566992384


I hope this will be for all vaccines going forward and not just the COVID shots.

[Amethyst]

Also, the long-promised unified booking site will be launching next week...

1431393765566992384


I hope this will be for all vaccines going forward and not just the COVID shots.

That would be great! I need a non-covid vaccine and can't get through on the number I'm supposed to call.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Boosters! Get your boosters!

1432453238716985353

I assume that would be the standard 2 month gap between the booster and your last shot (being the 2nd shot)

Fantastic news, I've an AZ Pfizer guy so having another Pfizer will be awesome.

[getbak]

I assume that would be the standard 2 month gap between the booster and your last shot (being the 2nd shot)

Fantastic news, I've an AZ Pfizer guy so having another Pfizer will be awesome.

Looks like it's a minimum of 28 days since your second shot: https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=79756F876B4E6-D0CF-EE2A-5B0A09CE5864BEFD

[Boreal]

1432331121274994689

[EldrickOnIce]

Hmm. Lots of chatter in the daily NY Times email that the need for boosters because of waning immunity is probably overstated.
This is an excerpt from the email.

The bottom line
Here’s my best attempt to give you an objective summary of the evidence, free from alarmism — and acknowledging uncertainty:

Immunity does probably wane modestly within the first year of receiving a shot. For this reason, booster shots make sense for vulnerable people, many experts believe. As Dr. Céline Gounder of Bellevue Hospital Center told my colleague Apoorva Mandavilli, the C.D.C.’s data “support giving additional doses of vaccine to highly immunocompromised persons and nursing home residents, not to the general public.”

The current booster shots may do little good for most people. The vaccines continue to provide excellent protection against illness (as opposed to merely a positive Covid test). People will eventually need boosters, but it may make more sense to wait for one specifically designed to combat a variant. “We don’t know whether a non-Delta booster would improve protection against Delta,” Dr. Aaron Richterman of the University of Pennsylvania told me.

A national policy of frequent booster shots has significant costs, financially and otherwise. Among other things, the exaggerated discussion of waning immunity contributes to vaccine skepticism.

While Americans are focusing on booster shots, other policies may do much more to beat back Covid, including more vaccine mandates in the U.S.; a more rapid push to vaccinate the world (and prevent other variants from taking root); and an accelerated F.D.A. study of vaccines for children.

As always, we should be open to changing our minds as we get new evidence. As Richterman puts it, “We have time to gather the appropriate evidence before rushing into boosters.”

[PepsiFree]

Hmm. Lots of chatter in the daily NY Times email that the need for boosters because of waning immunity is probably overstated.
This is an excerpt from the email.

The infectious disease specialised they had on the Protect Our Province covid briefing today said nearly as much. Basically: first dose = required, second dose = shores up protection for severe outcomes, third dose = icing on the cake for most people but much more relevant if Delta-specific.

I believe Pfizer and Moderna are developing boosters specifically for Delta.

[EldrickOnIce]

Yeah. We bathe in vaccine while the rest of the world goes without. Feels pretty wrong.
And yes, I will be there first in line for a third shot if/when eligible.

[woolymammoth]

So, how long does everyone figure until you need 3 to be considered fully vaxxed. Or how long before I get called an anti vaxxer by the CP faithful for only having 2/3.

This is fun!

[PepsiFree]

So, how long does everyone figure until you need 3 to be considered fully vaxxed. Or how long before I get called an anti vaxxer by the CP faithful for only having 2/3.

This is fun!

How long until you grow up? You haven’t once posted anything of value, instead just dumb, snarky little comments about the board.

If you don’t like it here, don’t be here. Nobody cares, nobody is asking or waiting for your contribution, and when you stop posting, nobody will remember you were here in the first place.

Just a suggestion. The constant “CP faithful” stuff is getting a bit tired. If you’re not smart enough to raise the bar, maybe it’s time to move on friend.

[woolymammoth]

^^ serious non tough guy responses only please

[woolymammoth]

If you don’t like it here, don’t be here. Nobody cares, nobody is asking or waiting for your contribution, and when you stop posting, nobody will remember you were here in the first place.


All true for you as well my dude

[Benched]

Thinking wife should get her third - to be Az/Pfizer/Pfizer and potentially eliminate travel issues in the future.

[PepsiFree]

All true for you as well my dude

Sure thing. Again, actually participate instead of presenting absolutely nothing of value or interest. That’s all. I’m sure you have a brain, so feel free to use it. You’re on a forum with other human beings, not just random internet bots here to watch you deal with your own main character syndrome fighting against “the mob” or whatever. Grow up, or ship out.

There’s nothing tough guy about it. Smarten up and be an adult.

[woolymammoth]

PM me if you're so butthurt. I'm asking a question on a forum. Get over yourself.

[Looch City]

Here's a question: why are you the way you are?

[PepsiFree]

PM me if you're so butthurt. I'm asking a question on a forum. Get over yourself.

Not butthurt, just honest. If you want better answers, ask your questions better.

This is not hard to figure out. I believe in your ability to do so.

[woolymammoth]

You actually didn't answer either of my questions. You've made 3 "honest" unrelated posts to my questions while bashing my character. Like I said, PM me if you'd like to have a battle. If not, answer my questions and set your ego aside or just don't respond to my posts if they set you off?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

The infectious disease specialised they had on the Protect Our Province covid briefing today said nearly as much. Basically: first dose = required, second dose = shores up protection for severe outcomes, third dose = icing on the cake for most people but much more relevant if Delta-specific.

I believe Pfizer and Moderna are developing boosters specifically for Delta.

So, how long does everyone figure until you need 3 to be considered fully vaxxed. Or how long before I get called an anti vaxxer by the CP faithful for only having 2/3.

This is fun!


There really isn't a question in your moronic hot take, but Pepsi did in fact answer your non question.

[PepsiFree]

You actually didn't answer either of my questions. You've made 3 "honest" unrelated posts to my questions while bashing my character. Like I said, PM me if you'd like to have a battle. If not, answer my questions and set your ego aside or just don't respond to my posts if they set you off?

Feel free to read the thread if you want your answer. Considering nobody actually knows the answer to your first question, and your second question was another borderline idiotic troll attempt that makes you look like a child, it's hard to know how gift-wrapped you'd like the answer. However, we know what's going down in Israel, and if you'd like to watch the Protect Our Province briefing from last night you can get an expert's opinion on third doses.

There's no ego, nobody is "set off" and there will be no PM. If you want to troll the "CP faithful" with another stupid snarky comment, take the response like an adult instead of crying about moving it to PM. There's no battle to be had because that suggests you have something to bring to the table, and you very clearly don't.

Again, grow up and participate honestly, or don't. And if you want to participate in the same way you've been doing, then you should be an adult and accept the responses you end up with. This isn't hard. Is it for you?

[GGG]

So, how long does everyone figure until you need 3 to be considered fully vaxxed. Or how long before I get called an anti vaxxer by the CP faithful for only having 2/3.

This is fun!

Presuming you are serious

1) As data shows an increase in severe outcomes in the 2 dose vaccinated crowd it would be reasonable at that time for Phac to recommend third doses to be considered fully vaccinated. I suspect the next 6-12 months

2) If you don’t follow vaccine recommendations by Canada /Alberta health you are to some degree anti - vaccine. So once there are no lines for third doses, and third dose are the recommended policy you would be anti vaccine if you have not gotten one. Or perhaps Vaccine Lazy but from a risk standpoint it’s the same.

[getbak]

Thinking wife should get her third - to be Az/Pfizer/Pfizer and potentially eliminate travel issues in the future.
Unless you're travelling out of the country sometime soon (or might need to leave the country on less than 2 weeks notice), I'd hold off for now. It sounds like we might be getting updates to the mRNA vaccines that better target Delta and the other variants.

[woolymammoth]

Pepsifree are you done beating your chest yet?

^^
Very serious, and it will be interesting to see how that all plays out with everyone's 1st and 2nd doses happening at different times and different age and risk categories being considered to require the doses more than others. Does this hit straight across the board when the 3rd requirement falls, or will they come out with something that makes sense is the hope I guess...

For instance, for myself there is research that points to post covid recoveries showing strong immune responses to the first dose but next to no benefit from the second one (in my risk category). Now that this has been around for 2 years and is showing no signs of going anywhere it would just be nice If the rules regarding what is right or wrong started to fall more in line with realistic.

I guess what I am saying is- I'm 32, I was covid positive and had a sore throat one morning that was gone the same day and had zero other symptoms. I stayed home from work and got tested despite thinking I didn't have covid. followed all the rules and was dumbfounded when I got the positive result and that's how I was able to avoid any serious outcomes for myself or anyone in my life. Now that I have had it, and know where I fall in terms of risk, and with the information on breakthrough Cases and transmission. I'm not really open to the idea of continually getting boosters when there are others who need them much more than myself.

[Roughneck]

I'm not really open to the idea of continually getting boosters when there are others who need them much more than myself.

We aren’t in a supply shortage so this concern doesn’t really hold up anymore.

So when you use non-issues to justify not getting boosters when recommended, that’s when you become an anti-vaxxer. To answer your question.

[woolymammoth]

We aren’t in a supply shortage so this concern doesn’t really hold up anymore.

So when you use non-issues to justify not getting boosters when recommended, that’s when you become an anti-vaxxer. To answer your question.


Oh really are we not? There are lots of places in the world that would benefit from the vaccine before all the healthy 32 year olds and younger Canadians are lining up for a 3rd dose. Shortage now? No. But when everywhere does open up to a third dose it probably doesn't take long before they are once again hard to come by. To be clear I also had covid before having any Vaccination. As this becomes Endemic the vaccine uptake will naturally fall and the people who are most at risk will continue to receive the shots. It would make sense if the rules and regulations did as well in my opinion.

[Benched]

Unless you're travelling out of the country sometime soon (or might need to leave the country on less than 2 weeks notice), I'd hold off for now. It sounds like we might be getting updates to the mRNA vaccines that better target Delta and the other variants.

Yeah we were debating back and forth on this, do 3rd dose and then get a booster? or just hold off and do two birds one stone. Not travelling until next year so maybe we hold off :)

[Roughneck]

Oh really are we not? There are lots of places in the world that would benefit from the vaccine before all the healthy 32 year olds and younger Canadians are lining up for a 3rd dose. Shortage now? No. But when everywhere does open up to a third dose it probably doesn't take long before they are once again hard to come by.


Do you think vaccine production capacity has dropped since 2021Q1?

[woolymammoth]

Do you think vaccine production capacity has dropped since 2021Q1?

I'm honestly not sure. But I know there are lots of places with people that don't have access to the vaccine.

I also know that if this is a forever thing there is going to be lots of people hopping off the 2-3 Vaccination a year train. We have other yearly Vaccination statistics to point towards and say that there is no way we will still have 70% of Canadians lining up for 2 or 3 shots a year when this drags into 2022,23,24,25 and so on. At some point the rules and hard core anti Vaccination finger pointers will need to go back into hiding.

Or is Pfizer just going to post 33 billion or whatever it was a year in profit from covid vaccines every year for eternity?

[PeteMoss]

If you don't want to get the booster, then don't get it.

You aren't even eligible for it and there is no mandate for it.

No idea where you are from but in Alberta there isn't any restrictions on you even if you have zero doses. If they bring one in - it will be for 2 shots until it becomes obvious that 3 shots are required.

You can even high five yourself about how you are saving people in Africa if you want in this hypothetical situation you've created for yourself.

[GGG]

I'm honestly not sure. But I know there are lots of places with people that don't have access to the vaccine.

I also know that if this is a forever thing there is going to be lots of people hopping off the 2-3 Vaccination a year train. We have other yearly Vaccination statistics to point towards and say that there is no way we will still have 70% of Canadians lining up for 2 or 3 shots a year when this drags into 2022,23,24,25 and so on. At some point the rules and hard core anti Vaccination finger pointers will need to go back into hiding.

Or is Pfizer just going to post 33 billion or whatever it was a year in profit from covid vaccines every year for eternity?

And that point is when we can go through one respitory illness season without canceling surgeries

But if we don’t have sufficient people on this train then the number of years waves will overwhelm hospitals will be longer. If those waves occur it’s perfectly reasonable to be a hard core anti vax finger wagger.

When you mention people oversees not getting vaccinated you sound like a mother telling her child to eat their food because there are starving people in the world. Canada is always going to order vaccine and have it expire based on best available scientific recommendations so your choosing to be boosted or not will not affect vaccine access in lower income nations.

When you mention the profit that Pfizer makes you seem to be looking for a reason not to be vaccinated and are starting to invoke conspiracies that the drug companies are controlling vaccination policy for profit. Pfizer will make what they make as they reduce death from Covid and allow economies to be open. I’m not sure what nearing that has on the conversation on whether or not to be vaccinated. But if you are concerned with the boogeyman changing government policies you should closely monitor what US insurance companies do for pricing vaccinated, unvaccinated and boosted people because those companies are purely actuarial profit machines. If they offer lower rates to the vaccinated and lower rates to the boosted then the math for vaccination works out very well.

It sounds like since you had Covid and it had a minimal affect on you you underestimate the consequences of getting it and it’s affects on society and are looking for a reason not to get booster?

Why don’t you want to get a booster when recommended by PHAC?

[woolymammoth]

If you don't want to get the booster, then don't get it.

You aren't even eligible for it and there is no mandate for it.

No idea where you are from but in Alberta there isn't any restrictions on you even if you have zero doses. If they bring one in - it will be for 2 shots until it becomes obvious that 3 shots are required.

You can even high five yourself about how you are saving people in Africa if you want in this hypothetical situation you've created for yourself.


You can high five yourself if you'd like as well. Africa, hmm I dont remember saying that? Right here in Canada 12 and under don't have access to the vaccine. So because you make assumptions am I supposed to say sorry now, haha? Or because some are dense it's my fault and therefore I just get piled on instead of receiving a regular response? Am I not allowed to speculate what the future of the vaccinations looks like without people getting bent out of shape?

[Cain]

The victim complex is pretty strong with you. It was a reasonable response given your premise.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Oh really are we not? There are lots of places in the world that would benefit from the vaccine before all the healthy 32 year olds and younger Canadians are lining up for a 3rd dose. Shortage now? No. But when everywhere does open up to a third dose it probably doesn't take long before they are once again hard to come by. To be clear I also had covid before having any Vaccination. As this becomes Endemic the vaccine uptake will naturally fall and the people who are most at risk will continue to receive the shots. It would make sense if the rules and regulations did as well in my opinion.

So when you said "lots of places in the world that would benefit from the vaccine", you meant here in Alberta for under 12 year olds who are not eligible for the vaccine?

[GordonBlue]

You can high five yourself if you'd like as well. Africa, hmm I dont remember saying that? Right here in Canada 12 and under don't have access to the vaccine. So because you make assumptions am I supposed to say sorry now, haha? Or because some are dense it's my fault and therefore I just get piled on instead of receiving a regular response? Am I not allowed to speculate what the future of the vaccinations looks like without people getting bent out of shape?

healthy 32 year old or not, just a reminder that just because you had a mild case the first time you got covid, doesn't mean you'll have such an easy go of it the second time.

[CliffFletcher]

WHO strongly opposing boosters.

Why A Push For Boosters Could Make The Pandemic Even Worse

…Officials at the World Health Organization said Wednesday that it strongly opposes booster shots for all adults in rich countries because the boosters will not help slow down the pandemic. By diverting doses away from unvaccinated people, booster shots will help drive the emergence of more dangerous mutants, the WHO doctors said.

"I'm afraid that this [booster recommendation] will only lead to more variants. ... And perhaps we're heading into an even more dire situation," WHO chief scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan said…

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/18/1028941909/why-a-push-for-boosters-could-make-the-pandemic-even-worse

[CliffFletcher]

We aren’t in a supply shortage so this concern doesn’t really hold up anymore.

So when you use non-issues to justify not getting boosters when recommended, that’s when you become an anti-vaxxer. To answer your question.

Nearly half the people on the planet have not received even a single dose yet. The population in rich countries is nearly 50 times more vaccinated than people in poor countries.

From an equity perspective, there is a real risk of worsening the existing global inequity in vaccinations. There remain 3.5 billion people on this earth, nearly half of the world’s population, who have not received even a first dose of vaccine. Only 2% of the African population has received even a single dose…

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01494-4

[Roughneck]

Nearly half the people on the planet have not received even a single dose yet. The population in rich countries is nearly 50 times more vaccinated than people in poor countries.


Right now in Alberta we have a vaccine stockpile of ~1.2M doses. Which is also about the amount we'd need to fully vaccinate the rest of the unvaxxed population. Vaccine deliveries as a result to Alberta have gone down to zero. Canada's vaccine deliveries were 7M+ a month ago, the last was under 2.5M with most of that being secured as a federal allocation (basically holding on waiting for a place to send them). We have the supply we need, production is ramping up (2021Q2 is basically double of what the Q1 height was, 2022 is potentially doubling that again). The need for boosters is marginal in the case that current supply isn't adequate.



So supply isn't the issue,our deliveries are dropping and the doses we have aren't going anywhere else. This narrative needs to stop.

[GGG]

Nearly half the people on the planet have not received even a single dose yet. The population in rich countries is nearly 50 times more vaccinated than people in poor countries.

Is their current injection capacity in the world to vaccinate faster? Is supply the current bottleneck and can those places manage the logistics of Pfizer?

40 million doses per day are going into arms per our world in data. Thats just over .5% per day. Canada, a first world country sustained 1.2%, other G7s had difficulty sustaining over 1%. So on a global scale vaccinating .5% of population seems pretty reasonable.

[CliffFletcher]

So supply isn't the issue,our deliveries are dropping and the doses we have aren't going anywhere else. This narrative needs to stop.

What narrative do think the WHO and Nature magazine are trying to push?

[Roughneck]

What narrative do think the WHO and Nature magazine are trying to push?


One that doesn't really apply to Canada.



Our deliveries have dropped significantly while production has increased and will continue to increase through the year and into 2022. Where are we robbing supply from?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I'm with Cliff on this one. Boosters for those who are severely at risk, but honestly, nobody else should qualify for it until the entire globe has had at least one dose.

[Roughneck]

Who's "severely" at risk and how many doses is that?

[Manhattanboy]

While the WHO may have a point re boosters they don’t have much credibility as far as I’m concerned.

Maybe I’m an idiot but I tune out the director and other WHO officials.

[You Need a Thneed]

I'm with Cliff on this one. Boosters for those who are severely at risk, but honestly, nobody else should qualify for it until the entire globe has had at least one dose.

Yes, but at the same time, if the alternatives are the doses sitting in a fridge, or going into the arms of those most vulnerable, it’s probably best if they go in the arms.

[opendoor]

There are about 6B people that are old enough to be vaccinated, and 3.1B already have their 1st dose (1B still need their 2nd). Assuming 75% uptake, that means there are only about 1.4B people left to get their 1st dose and 2.4B to get their 2nd, so 3.8B doses left to do. At the current rate of administration (about 40M a day), that's about 3 months. So I don't really see world supply being a bottleneck in any kind of timeframe where Canada where be administering booster doses. The ability to administer the doses in the developing world will soon be the bottleneck (if it isn't already).

[peter12]

Do you know where those 1.4B people live?

[opendoor]

Primarily in Africa and then a few developing nations in Asia (Afghanistan, Myanmar, etc.) Logistics of administration are (or very soon will be) the bottleneck in those places, not so much the supply of doses.

[PeteMoss]

I agree with the sentiment that we should limit boosters only to those at the highest risk right now.

But I will take a booster when its time. Even if the current shots greatly reduces severe risks - if I can take a harmless shot that reduces my chances of getting sick for a week, I'm taking it.

[Harry Lime]

I agree with the sentiment that we should limit boosters only to those at the highest risk right now.

But I will take a booster when its time. Even if the current shots greatly reduces severe risks - if I can take a harmless shot that reduces my chances of getting sick for a week, I'm taking it.

I haven't decided if a third shot is in my future or not, but a driving factor for me is to be able to look down at the 'two shoters' as unwashed scum.

[CroFlames]

If a 3rd shot is available to me (healthy male 30s) I will take it. Me not taking it when it's available won't magically make it available to villagers in a remote outpost of Nepal.

Now, should rich countries be pouring resources into distributing the vaccine to the third world? Of course that should be the bigger priority.

This whole conversation just makes me angrier at folks here at home who choose not to get it at all. I did not think I could be madder.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

One issue is that a lot of people with a cocktail will be motivated to get a booster for travel and vaccine passport reasons.

[Strange Brew]

The CDC data did show a drop in vaccine effectiveness in adults aged 75+ from July to August as it relates to effectiveness. But not clear if that’s caused by Delta, reduced potency of vaccines or combination.

Which is why some are questioning the rush to the 8 month proclamation for a third shot.

Maybe better off waiting a few more months when some of the vaccines may be modified to better ward off known variants?

In theory I will qualify for third shot in early October based on current guidance. Hoping Delta wave has subsided by then. I bet guidance, atleast in US will be different then vs. today.

[Robo]

Hey guys I ended up getting my first shot of phizer today it has been a long road to get to this point about a month ago I decided I was sick of my anxiety and fear controlling my life I went on sertraline after a rough 2 weeks of side effects and increased anxiety I was able to face 3 of my biggest triggers today ( closed rooms I feel I can't leave from, doctors, and needles)without feeling like I need to leave I felt in control of my anxiety for probably the first time in my life

[Weitz]

My mom got her 3rd shot today as she has some travel planned and got the mixed dose prior. Happy to hear.

[Hemi-Cuda]

I just got an email from Hidden Valley Pharmasave stating they're offering 1st, 2nd and 3rd doses on a walk-in basis. What's the time frame where one should get that 3rd dose? I got my 2nd on June 24

[PepsiFree]

I just got an email from Hidden Valley Pharmasave stating they're offering 1st, 2nd and 3rd doses on a walk-in basis. What's the time frame where one should get that 3rd dose? I got my 2nd on June 24

What’s the purpose for getting the third? Immunocompromised?

[Hemi-Cuda]

What’s the purpose for getting the third? Immunocompromised?

Well I assume we're all going to need one eventually. I'm not in a hurry, but if it's as simple as walking down the street and getting jabbed why not. I'm assuming there's no supply issues if they're offering walk-ins

[8 Ball]

What’s the purpose for getting the third? Immunocompromised?

Not to derail your question, and this may certainly not be the case with the post, but I know more than I few AZ recipients that wish to get a second dose of their Mrna vaccine.

[PepsiFree]

Well I assume we're all going to need one eventually. I'm not in a hurry, but if it's as simple as walking down the street and getting jabbed why not. I'm assuming there's no supply issues if they're offering walk-ins

Probably, just curious based on what conditions you’d need it for because that would probably impact the best time to get it.

If it’s just to get it, I’d wait until next year and see where things are at with a Delta specific booster. If it’s for immunity issues then whenever your doc recommends. And if it’s for getting two of one for a mixed dose person who wants to travel… I guess two weeks before you need to travel.

From what I’ve heard and read, no real rush for the average person to get the third dose.

[accord1999]

Well I assume we're all going to need one eventually. I'm not in a hurry, but if it's as simple as walking down the street and getting jabbed why not. I'm assuming there's no supply issues if they're offering walk-ins
I'm assuming that it's walk-in only for those who qualify under the AHS guidelines, or if you had mixed vaccinations/AstraZeneca and need it to travel. But that they wouldn't just give a third dose to any healthy and young individual.

[BoLevi]

It's interesting in the States, because companies have far more financial interest in having people vaccinated. I assume their insurance is covering these stays, which drives their insurance costs up. Because the dollar rules all, it's purely a financial decision. In Canada, companies may have less to lose, since the government picks up the hospital bill. For once, a more capitalist system may actually result in better health policy.

for once?

[opendoor]

Well I assume we're all going to need one eventually. I'm not in a hurry, but if it's as simple as walking down the street and getting jabbed why not. I'm assuming there's no supply issues if they're offering walk-ins
The efficacy of the 3rd dose will likely be heavily influenced by the interval between the 2nd and 3rd doses (longer normally being better). There's probably little to no benefit getting a 3rd dose 2 months after your 2nd.

[getbak]

Here's the third shot criteria from the Province: https://www.alberta.ca/covid19-vaccine.aspx#second

Third dose for immunocompromised

While 2 doses provide excellent protection for most people, third doses will be available for eligible groups at highest risk of severe outcomes:

immunocompromised Albertans ages 12 and older
residents of seniors’ supportive living facilities


Immunocompromised

Consult your health care providers first to discuss your personal risks and benefits.

Eligible immunocompromised conditions include:
transplant recipients, including solid organ and hematopoietic stem cell transplants
chronic kidney disease receiving regular dialysis
receiving active cancer treatment (chemotherapy, immunotherapy or targeted therapies), excluding those receiving only hormonal therapy, radiation therapy or surgery
taking certain medications for autoimmune diseases including rituximab, ocrelizumab and ofatumumab

When to book: Must wait at least 8 weeks after second dose.
How to book: Book immediately by calling 811 or through participating pharmacies or physicians’ offices. Book online beginning September 1.


Residents of seniors’ supportive living

Alberta Health Services will coordinate additional COVID-19 doses for residents of seniors’ supportive living with other immunization partners as needed at least 5 months after their second dose.
Eligible residents of supportive living facilities will receive their third doses at their facilities.



Additional doses for travellers

Travellers to jurisdictions that don't recognize Covishield/AstraZeneca or mixed series doses can get additional dose(s) of vaccine.
When to book: Must wait at least 4 weeks after second dose.
How to book: Book immediately by calling 811 or through participating pharmacies or physicians’ offices. Book online beginning September 1.

[curves2000]

It is still stunning to me just how many Canadians went ahead and got mixed doses of either AZ/MRNA or a combo of different MRNA. It didn't really make sense in a lot of ways, it's caused some problems with travel, work and other things and now we are giving boosters without much data on the need for it for a whole host of the population or what an optimum time frame would be for maximum benefit.

[opendoor]

I don't find it surprising at all. People wanted excellent protection against severe disease as soon as they could get it and all of the vaccine regimens (mixed or not) provide that. I don't think the government should have done mixed mRNA unless there was a huge shortage of one of them, but other than that I don't see the issue at all, and I certainly don't question anyone who opted to go that route.

[MoneyGuy]

It is still stunning to me just how many Canadians went ahead and got mixed doses of either AZ/MRNA or a combo of different MRNA. It didn't really make sense in a lot of ways, it's caused some problems with travel, work and other things and now we are giving boosters without much data on the need for it for a whole host of the population or what an optimum time frame would be for maximum benefit.

In fairness, we were told to get whatever vaccine is available/offered. My wife and have two Pfizer shots but I get why some mixed their doses.

[Fuzz]

Yes, we were also in the heart of the third wave, and the idea was to vaccinate as quickly as possible. At the time, it was the correct decision. It probably still is, it's only a political problem, which should be solved with discussion and science. But tossing third doses seems to be what the government decided was easier.

[BoLevi]

I don't find it surprising at all. People wanted excellent protection against severe disease as soon as they could get it and all of the vaccine regimens (mixed or not) provide that. I don't think the government should have done mixed mRNA unless there was a huge shortage of one of them, but other than that I don't see the issue at all, and I certainly don't question anyone who opted to go that route.

There was not a surplus of vaccine to optimize the regimen.

The gov't made the correct choices.

[opendoor]

There was not a surplus of vaccine to optimize the regimen.

The gov't made the correct choices.

Based on the deliveries, matching mRNA doses would have only added about 5 days to the rollout.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have allowed it, but they shouldn't have treated them as interchangeable either unless they were positive that it wouldn't represent a bureaucratic issue internationally, which they obviously weren't. In BC at least, the only option to ensure a matching 2nd dose was to make an appointment, show up to it, leave if they didn't have the right kind of vaccine, book another appointment later on, and hope they'll have it that time. Meanwhile that person has wasted a booking slot for someone else who didn't mind mixing.

[peter12]

It was tough in BC because you only found out what you were getting after you physically walked into the vaccination centre.

I have mixed Moderna/Pfizer. I made that decision to get vaccinated as quickly as possible. Thankfully, travel only seems like an inconvenience to me at this point so I will let the politicians hash out another one of their mistakes.

[BoLevi]

Based on the deliveries, matching mRNA doses would have only added about 5 days to the rollout.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have allowed it, but they shouldn't have treated them as interchangeable either unless they were positive that it wouldn't represent a bureaucratic issue internationally, which they obviously weren't. In BC at least, the only option to ensure a matching 2nd dose was to make an appointment, show up to it, leave if they didn't have the right kind of vaccine, book another appointment later on, and hope they'll have it that time. Meanwhile that person has wasted a booking slot for someone else who didn't mind mixing.

The solution to that is managing the bureaucracy, not asking people to delay their vaccine by 5 days, which would have actual consequences for some.

[Lubicon]

It is still stunning to me just how many Canadians went ahead and got mixed doses of either AZ/MRNA or a combo of different MRNA. It didn't really make sense in a lot of ways, it's caused some problems with travel, work and other things and now we are giving boosters without much data on the need for it for a whole host of the population or what an optimum time frame would be for maximum benefit.

Many people were following the advice of our government and health officials to take the first vaccine available. In a pandemic situation that advice made sense.

[Tron_fdc]

So what's the deal with US vaccinations?

I will be at a trade show in the USA this month, and I can quite easily walk into a pharmacy and get my 3rd dose.

Wise idea? Bad idea? I have no clue how the vaccine records will integrate with ours, but if I can take advantage of a completely accessible 3rd shot I might as well.

[Jiri Hrdina]

So what's the deal with US vaccinations?

I will be at a trade show in the USA this month, and I can quite easily walk into a pharmacy and get my 3rd dose.

Wise idea? Bad idea? I have no clue how the vaccine records will integrate with ours, but if I can take advantage of a completely accessible 3rd shot I might as well.

I would wait until there is more information about the ideal timing between shots.

[DoubleF]

It is still stunning to me just how many Canadians went ahead and got mixed doses of either AZ/MRNA or a combo of different MRNA. It didn't really make sense in a lot of ways, it's caused some problems with travel, work and other things and now we are giving boosters without much data on the need for it for a whole host of the population or what an optimum time frame would be for maximum benefit.

I think you're mistaken in your assumption that many people mixed vaccines by choice.

As much as many want to criticize Alberta about many things pandemic related, we had the luxury to pick and choose/wait for the vaccine of choice. We of the lower risk groups also seemed to get access far earlier than many other provinces. I heard of many people in BC and SK that they basically had to book at mass vaccination locations and were notified which vaccine was available at that location only when they showed up (Moderna/Pfizer/AZ). I didn't chat with as many people in Ontario and other provinces to know whether or not the same was happening in those provinces as well.

[Lubicon]

So what's the deal with US vaccinations?

I will be at a trade show in the USA this month, and I can quite easily walk into a pharmacy and get my 3rd dose.

Wise idea? Bad idea? I have no clue how the vaccine records will integrate with ours, but if I can take advantage of a completely accessible 3rd shot I might as well.

I would wait until there is more information about the ideal timing between shots.

If there is some data that supports it as Jiri mentions, then go for it. A buddy of mine got his 2nd shot that way. Was in Miami so walked into a pharmacy to ask. 15 minutes later he was on his way out, zero cost. Went to an AHS clinic with the card they gave him at the pharmacy and they updated his records here.

[TorqueDog]

So what's the deal with US vaccinations?

I will be at a trade show in the USA this month, and I can quite easily walk into a pharmacy and get my 3rd dose.

Wise idea? Bad idea? I have no clue how the vaccine records will integrate with ours, but if I can take advantage of a completely accessible 3rd shot I might as well.Regarding vaccination records, if you get a vaccination in a jurisdiction other than Alberta, you can send a copy of that vaccination record to AHS or take it to a pharmacy (I think) to have it entered into your record.

As for getting a third dose elsewhere, so far the data -- as I understand it -- seems to suggest waiting longer between doses (at least for first to second) provides better immunity than shorter waiting periods. I'm not going to try to change your mind either way, but if you're going to do it anyway, I would give myself some time between second and third shots.

[Tron_fdc]

Good call. I found this

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1659

They also found that a third dose given 44 to 45 weeks after the second increased antibody titres further, and that adverse events were lower after the second or third dose than after the first.

I can wait until next year for my extended range 5G superpowers I guess.

[GGG]

It is still stunning to me just how many Canadians went ahead and got mixed doses of either AZ/MRNA or a combo of different MRNA. It didn't really make sense in a lot of ways, it's caused some problems with travel, work and other things and now we are giving boosters without much data on the need for it for a whole host of the population or what an optimum time frame would be for maximum benefit.

Really mixed doses was based on the best available information at the time. I’m surprised anyone got a second dose of AZ given the availability of mNRA even with the reduced clotting risk on the 2nd dose. Especially after the antibody studies came out.

The political travel problem should be far simpler to resolve then it is and should have zero impact on vaccine policy. It’s ridiculous that you might need a 3rd dose for matching doses for travel reasons only.

Politically it should be as simple as if your country states you are fully backed you are fully vaxxed and be done with it.

[GGG]

Good call. I found this

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1659

They also found that a third dose given 44 to 45 weeks after the second increased antibody titres further, and that adverse events were lower after the second or third dose than after the first.

I can wait until next year for my extended range 5G superpowers I guess.

Given that the switch over to using the vaccinated as towers failed today I suspect the push for 3rd doses will go up significantly.

[EldrickOnIce]

Regarding 3rd dose in US, you would have to misrepresent your vaccination status to get it. They will accept walk-ins with no insurance and jab you, but only with the understanding this is first or second dose. Third doses are currently only available for severely immunocompromised

[Amethyst]

I got AZ for my first dose, because it was the height of the third wave. I worked in a high risk setting (not just for me, but for those I worked with), the government was refusing to do anything to mitigate community spread, they were refusing to do anything industry-specific, and they refused to give us vaccination priority. I have a couple underlying medical conditions, but neither are serious enough on their own to qualify for that category.

I wanted to wait for mRNA and I probably would have if Alberta had been at Jan-Feb covid levels. But in mid-April, as things seemed to be spiralling out of control, I took the only thing they would give me.

As soon as they recommended mRNA for second doses, I got Pfizer. Got my second Pfizer today and the nurse said that most of her appointments yesterday were third doses that people wanted for travel purposes.

[Lubicon]

Given that the switch over to using the vaccinated as towers failed today I suspect the push for 3rd doses will go up significantly.

Ha, nicely played!

[calumniate]

my first shot was teh pfizer and second was moderna. rolled the dice there! wondering what I should take for the 3rd :p

[Tron_fdc]

There also seems to be some controversy on 3rd doses as well. Looks like 2 top officials took a retirement that had something to do with a rushed 3rd dose approval?

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/570232-health-officials-defend-boosters-after-top-fda-scientists-announce

Of course, people on Facebook are taking that as "2 top FDA officials resigned because the vaccines are not safe"

I've been debating and facepalming this point all morning.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

I dunno. I am an AZ/MNRA mixer because the AZ was first available to me and I viewed the risk as acceptable. There seemed to be enough evidence that the cocktail was likely as good or better than the AZ/AZ version.

I frankly assumed that internationally, AZ would have been recognized and that the AZ/MNRA cocktail would be as well. Sounds like it might be necessary for me to get that second dose of MNRA to travel. Don't love it, but again, given what is known right now, another booster might be helpful and if it ensures easier travel, then that is what I'll need to do.

[getbak]

It would be great if the government would give us some stats from the Delta wave about breakthrough infections and the vaccine mix the people had.

That would go a long way towards lifting travel restrictions for those with mixed doses (or not if the numbers don't look good).

----------



Also, I don't know when they added this, but I just noticed it yesterday, the government stats now breakdown cases over the last 120 days (back to early May) by age range, vaccine status, and whether or not the person has a pre-existing condition.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes

The big takeaway is if you're under 60 and fully-vaccinated, your chances of requiring treatment in a hospital (or worse) are extremely low, especially if you don't have any underlying conditions.

In the last 120 days, 127 people under the age of 40 in Alberta have spent time in the ICU with COVID. 1 of them was partially vaccinated. None of them were fully-vaccinated.

57 people under 60 have died from COVID in the last 120 days, 5 were partially vaccinated and 2 were fully vaccinated. 4 people under 40 have died in the last 120 days from COVID, they were all unvaccinated.

[Strange Brew]

So what's the deal with US vaccinations?

I will be at a trade show in the USA this month, and I can quite easily walk into a pharmacy and get my 3rd dose.

Wise idea? Bad idea? I have no clue how the vaccine records will integrate with ours, but if I can take advantage of a completely accessible 3rd shot I might as well.

As Eldrick pointed out, you’d have to lie to get a third dose. If you believe in following the science, I’d wait until someone like the CDC gives a clear message on 3rd dose vs self medicating.

[Bill Bumface]

Finding a way to get yourself a third shot when not meeting the criteria doesn't seem far off self dosing Ivermectin.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/briefing/vaccine-immunity-booster-shots.html

[TorqueDog]

Finding a way to get yourself a third shot when not meeting the criteria doesn't seem far off self dosing Ivermectin.That's giving Ivermectin far more credit than it deserves.

[Bill Bumface]

That's giving Ivermectin far more credit than it deserves.

It is, and they aren't equivalent, but it also seems similar in that people read some articles on the internet and then go do something not recommended by doctors to prevent COVID.

[TorqueDog]

If I have to choose between someone managing to source a third dose and someone taking Ivermectin, give me the person getting a third dose. At least I can take solace in the fact that they aren’t Joe Rogan.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It would be great if the government would give us some stats from the Delta wave about breakthrough infections and the vaccine mix the people had.

That would go a long way towards lifting travel restrictions for those with mixed doses (or not if the numbers don't look good).

----------



Also, I don't know when they added this, but I just noticed it yesterday, the government stats now breakdown cases over the last 120 days (back to early May) by age range, vaccine status, and whether or not the person has a pre-existing condition.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes

The big takeaway is if you're under 60 and fully-vaccinated, your chances of requiring treatment in a hospital (or worse) are extremely low, especially if you don't have any underlying conditions.

In the last 120 days, 127 people under the age of 40 in Alberta have spent time in the ICU with COVID. 1 of them was partially vaccinated. None of them were fully-vaccinated.

57 people under 60 have died from COVID in the last 120 days, 5 were partially vaccinated and 2 were fully vaccinated. 4 people under 40 have died in the last 120 days from COVID, they were all unvaccinated.

2 fully vaccinated people died of covid but didn’t spend any time in hospital? I find that odd. How would that even happen? Or are deaths excluded from the hospitalization category?

Nm. Used different age cutoffs. Ones under 40 the other is under 60.

[sureLoss]

BioNTech has begun filing for regulatory approval of Comirnaty for 5 to 11 years old.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/biontech-seek-approval-soon-vaccine-5-11-year-olds-spiegel-2021-09-10/?taid=613b6d19ea02a30001b0d806&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[Knut]

Nm

[getbak]

Bow Valley College makes full vaccination mandatory for all staff and students on October 22. Rapid testing will be available for the unvaccinated until then, but rapid testing will be eliminated after the 22nd and you will only be allowed to enter the college with proof of vaccination after then.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/vaccinations-for-students-staff-at-bow-valley-college-mandatory-by-oct-22


That's exactly 6 weeks from today, so it gives any unvaxxed staff and students just enough time to get double-dosed if they get their first shots today.

[getbak]

Nine more post-secondaries in Alberta are making vaccines mandatory and eliminating rapid testing, including the UofC, MRU, and SAIT.

1437461972300152834
1437462354753581058

[DiNaMo]

I feel like this isn't talked about enough but at what point will natural immunity after having recovered from Covid be taken into account with regards to vaccination guidelines and more importantly vaccine passports.

Latest science is showing it's more effective than the vaccines

[darockwilder]

I feel like this isn't talked about enough but at what point will natural immunity after having recovered from Covid be taken into account with regards to vaccination guidelines and more importantly vaccine passports.

Latest science is showing it's more effective than the vaccines

What peer reviewed science is this you speak of?

[Fuzz]

I feel like this isn't talked about enough but at what point will natural immunity after having recovered from Covid be taken into account with regards to vaccination guidelines and more importantly vaccine passports.

Latest science is showing it's more effective than the vaccines
There is no reason not to get double vaccinated, even after having covid, so there isn't a good reason to bother with a separate exemption.

[firebug]

I feel like this isn't talked about enough but at what point will natural immunity after having recovered from Covid be taken into account with regards to vaccination guidelines and more importantly vaccine passports.

Latest science is showing it's more effective than the vaccines

Latest science also shows that those that recover from COVID and who get vaccinated have increased protection that those who recover and are unvaccinated.

Everyone who is eligible should get vaccinated.

[cgy-sk-import]

... I think I also saw some science that said getting covid first, and then getting vaccinated after, has the risk of being more dead in between the two.

[Lubicon]

Nine more post-secondaries in Alberta are making vaccines mandatory and eliminating rapid testing, including the UofC, MRU, and SAIT.

1437461972300152834
1437462354753581058

The wording 'campus community members and visitors' insinuates it is not only students and staff. Anyone setting foot on campus would have to meet this requirement the way I read it (and I stand to be corrected). For example anyone attending any event on campus (athletic, cultural, etc) would also be required. Including the beer league players whose ice is at the Oval for example.

I'm also wondering if this essentially means ALL classes will need to offer an online option for those unwilling to meet the requirement. Or will it be tough noogies for anyone who won't get vaccinated and therefore cannot attend class?

I'm fully in favor of this BTW, and good to see all the major post secondary institutions aligning themselves together on this.

[Wastedyouth]

Just got my booster (2nd Pfizer).

Confused about the last couple pages. Was this not a thing that is supposed to happen
??

[GordonBlue]

The wording 'campus community members and visitors' insinuates it is not only students and staff. Anyone setting foot on campus would have to meet this requirement the way I read it (and I stand to be corrected). For example anyone attending any event on campus (athletic, cultural, etc) would also be required. Including the beer league players whose ice is at the Oval for example.

I'm also wondering if this essentially means ALL classes will need to offer an online option for those unwilling to meet the requirement. Or will it be tough noogies for anyone who won't get vaccinated and therefore cannot attend class?

I'm fully in favor of this BTW, and good to see all the major post secondary institutions aligning themselves together on this.

I believe you are correct. that's how I viewed it too.


my e-mail said

Campus visitors

Securing the safety of our campus and community activities has been the main goal for all of us throughout this pandemic. While we know that welcoming visitors to our campuses enriches the post-secondary experience, to ensure that everyone on our campus can be safe, we will only be welcoming those individuals who are fully vaccinated to our campuses.

[TorqueDog]

Just got my booster (2nd Pfizer).

Confused about the last couple pages. Was this not a thing that is supposed to happen
??No, your second shot is part of a full vaccination regimen for Pfizer. So first dose is partial, second dose brings you to fully vaccinated status.

Your third dose of vaccine (any vaccine) would be a 'booster' which is what people are talking about. Only people who are severely immunocompromised or got mixed first and second doses and require a matching pair for international travel are getting third doses now.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

How does the university enforce it though? The U of C campus is public, anyone can go there at any time for any reason. Posting security at building entrances would be cost prohibitive, they'd need about 1000 security guards. Can't imagine they'd lock all doors and force students into just one entrance per building, even that would seem impossible.

I wonder if some of these mandates are going to be based on the honour system. Or only enforceable for registered students and official visitors (speakers, guest lecturers etc).

Because enforcing it for a random joe who decides to stop by Mac Hall for lunch doesn't seem feasible.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

No, your second shot is part of a full vaccination regimen for Pfizer. So first dose is partial, second dose brings you to fully vaccinated status.

Your third dose of vaccine (any vaccine) would be a 'booster' which is what people are talking about. Only people who are severely immunocompromised or got mixed first and second doses and require a matching pair for international travel are getting third doses now.

He said it was his second pfizer, not his second shot.

[Strange Brew]

Seems the rush to start jabbing people a third time may have been premature.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/09/13/covid-booster-shots-data-shows-third-shots-not-appropriate-at-this-time-scientists-conclude.html

[TorqueDog]

He said it was his second pfizer, not his second shot.Then it sounds like the second case I mentioned; receiving mixed first doses and needing a matching dose for travel.

See "Third dose for immunocompromised" and "Additional doses for travellers".
https://www.alberta.ca/covid19-vaccine.aspx

I would say anyone who got a mixed set for their first two shots and plan on doing any sort of traveling outside of Canada should be looking into it.

[Wastedyouth]

Ah ok, I thought for some reason a third (Second Pfizer) is required even locally with the passport stuff (whenever that is implemented).

I may have to travel internationally for work, so I guess it will work out in the end.

PS. There was no push back on this from the Pharmacist, they just said "Ok here you go!"

[Knut]

Ah ok, I thought for some reason a third (Second Pfizer) is required even locally with the passport stuff (whenever that is implemented).

I may have to travel internationally for work, so I guess it will work out in the end.

PS. There was no push back on this from the Pharmacist, they just said "Ok here you go!"

I think it makes sense for people with a mixed dose to do this. Its available.

[Lubicon]

Seems the rush to start jabbing people a third time may have been premature.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/09/13/covid-booster-shots-data-shows-third-shots-not-appropriate-at-this-time-scientists-conclude.html

Except for those who need it for travel I suppose.

[DiNaMo]

There is no reason not to get double vaccinated, even after having covid, so there isn't a good reason to bother with a separate exemption.

The 300,000 or whatever number people would like to use of recovered cases in Alberta represent the 7% most immune/least likely to have negative outcomes of the population so why wouldn't they get equal treatment to those that are ironically more susceptible to getting and having negative outcomes from the virus?

[opendoor]

Seems the rush to start jabbing people a third time may have been premature.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/09/13/covid-booster-shots-data-shows-third-shots-not-appropriate-at-this-time-scientists-conclude.html
Maybe, maybe not. The evidence out of Israel regarding 60+ year olds is pretty convincing and I think the letter that article is based on is kind of hand waving away all the evidence of waning immunity.

To me, at lot of the scientific pushback against boosters is based on the (correct) idea that 1st and 2nd doses elsewhere will save far more lives than 3rd doses will. And that's fine, but at least be honest about it. Don't try to argue that there's no evidence of waning immunity in the elderly or that boosters won't have a pretty significant benefit in terms of reducing severe breakthrough cases.

[Fuzz]

The 300,000 or whatever number people would like to use of recovered cases in Alberta represent the 7% most immune/least likely to have negative outcomes of the population so why wouldn't they get equal treatment to those that are ironically more susceptible to getting and having negative outcomes from the virus?
I'd imagine most of the previously infected have also got vaccinated, so the number is much smaller. I'm not sure where your bolded bit comes from? We do know that getting covid and then getting vaccinated provides stronger protection than just getting covid. So logically, it makes sense to have those people vaccinated.

I suspect the bigger issue is messaging, because if you give people an out for getting vaccinated, they will take it. "I'll wait for natural immunity!" is not a good plan. The goal is to get as many people vaccinated as possible. Adding caveats will make reaching that goal harder.


Here's some good reading on why you should still get vaccinated if you had covid:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-you-get-covid-19-more-than-once/

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I'd imagine most of the previously infected have also got vaccinated, so the number is much smaller. I'm not sure where your bolded bit comes from? We do know that getting covid and then getting vaccinated provides stronger protection than just getting covid. So logically, it makes sense to have those people vaccinated.

I suspect the bigger issue is messaging, because if you give people an out for getting vaccinated, they will take it. "I'll wait for natural immunity!" is not a good plan. The goal is to get as many people vaccinated as possible. Adding caveats will make reaching that goal harder.


Here's some good reading on why you should still get vaccinated if you had covid:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-you-get-covid-19-more-than-once/

Yeah, this is spot on, and, I think this is kind of the biggest issue here.
The idea is to incentivize people to get vaccinated, not to catch COVID.

And yes, I 100% believe there is a portion of the population that, if given that choice, is dumb enough to actively choose the later.

[DiNaMo]

I'd imagine most of the previously infected have also got vaccinated, so the number is much smaller. I'm not sure where your bolded bit comes from? We do know that getting covid and then getting vaccinated provides stronger protection than just getting covid. So logically, it makes sense to have those people vaccinated.

I suspect the bigger issue is messaging, because if you give people an out for getting vaccinated, they will take it. "I'll wait for natural immunity!" is not a good plan. The goal is to get as many people vaccinated as possible. Adding caveats will make reaching that goal harder.


Here's some good reading on why you should still get vaccinated if you had covid:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/can-you-get-covid-19-more-than-once/

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.

[Fuzz]

But this part seems to be the key takeaway:
The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated.


It's great that they are finding people unfortunate enough to get infected with covid have good protection, but it can be even better, which is better for everyone, so they should still get vaccinated. There's no good argument not to, so providing additional motivation to not get vaccinated is not good public policy.

[V]

How does the university enforce it though? The U of C campus is public, anyone can go there at any time for any reason. Posting security at building entrances would be cost prohibitive, they'd need about 1000 security guards. Can't imagine they'd lock all doors and force students into just one entrance per building, even that would seem impossible.

I wonder if some of these mandates are going to be based on the honour system. Or only enforceable for registered students and official visitors (speakers, guest lecturers etc).

Because enforcing it for a random joe who decides to stop by Mac Hall for lunch doesn't seem feasible.


There's no way to enforce it. My daughter's going into Grade 12 this year, so I took her to the University this summer to show her what it's all about. All of the doors were locked, only to be opened by those with a OneCard, but we managed to tailgate into any building and go basically anywhere we wanted to. You can try to enforce access at the University, but it's way too spread out, and there are way too many people there for it to work.

[peter12]

Maybe, maybe not. The evidence out of Israel regarding 60+ year olds is pretty convincing and I think the letter that article is based on is kind of hand waving away all the evidence of waning immunity.

To me, at lot of the scientific pushback against boosters is based on the (correct) idea that 1st and 2nd doses elsewhere will save far more lives than 3rd doses will. And that's fine, but at least be honest about it. Don't try to argue that there's no evidence of waning immunity in the elderly or that boosters won't have a pretty significant benefit in terms of reducing severe breakthrough cases.

Wasn't that the study with data showing a positive effect one week after the third dose, which is probably too quickly for many people to build an effective immune response?

I have seen speculation that the effect was derived from changing behaviour among those who received a booster.

Anyway, even the study above (which is better outlined in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/health/covid-vaccine-booster-lancet.html?te=1&nl=coronavirus-briefing&emc=edit_cb_20210913)) recommends third vaccines for the immuno-compromised.

[opendoor]

Wasn't that the study with data showing a positive effect one week after the third dose, which is probably too quickly for many people to build an effective immune response?

I have seen speculation that the effect was derived from changing behaviour among those who received a booster.

Anyway, even the study above (which is better outlined in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/health/covid-vaccine-booster-lancet.html?te=1&nl=coronavirus-briefing&emc=edit_cb_20210913)) recommends third vaccines for the immuno-compromised.

Antibody response after a booster dose (beyond the 1st) is normally quite quick. The 2nd dose of the mRNA vaccines got about 90% of the way to their peak efficacy within a week of being administered, so I don't think it's implausible that the same would happen with the 3rd. And they monitored beyond the 7 days, and the effect continued (improved, actually).

There are confounding variables (as there are with almost any real-world study), but I think the effect is pretty clear.

[Fire]

Booked my 3rd shot (2nd shot of Pfizer) for tomorrow. Have a trip booked for Vegas in December, which I may still cancel, but I figured I might as well get the shot.

[EldrickOnIce]

Booked my 3rd shot (2nd shot of Pfizer) for tomorrow. Have a trip booked for Vegas in December, which I may still cancel, but I figured I might as well get the shot.

Yours is a good example. Let's say you were planning on taking in a Raiders home game during your trip. Any event in Allegiant Stadium is restricted to fully vaccinated. I'm not saying you would have a problem as is,
but your second dose of Pfizer guarantees you would not.

[EldrickOnIce]

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.

You are talking in absolutes where in reality none exist. 'Natural' immunity is all over the board when it comes to t cell response. In some people it is excellent, in many others it is probably not enough to even be partially protective. What is almost absolute is that anyone who previously had Covid and has since been vaccinated has really outstanding response. There is very good reason for everyone to be vaccinated. Period

[REDVAN]

I received Moderna as my first dose and Pfizer for my second. I just booked my 3rd dose- a 2nd Moderna. Wish me luck.

[curves2000]

I received Moderna as my first dose and Pfizer for my second. I just booked my 3rd dose- a 2nd Moderna. Wish me luck.


I have seen this amongst other friends of mine who got mixed doses. Is AHS sending out notices saying people should get 3rd doses???

It feels strange to me to have young, healthy, 20 and 30's getting 3 doses in such a short time frame considering it doesn't appear to be medically needed.

If people are doing it for a vaccine passport reason for international travel, that I understand in some ways.

[REDVAN]

No, I did not get any notice from AHS. I just noticed that medical need, or travel requirements are the acceptable reasons.

[Lubicon]

How does the university enforce it though? The U of C campus is public, anyone can go there at any time for any reason. Posting security at building entrances would be cost prohibitive, they'd need about 1000 security guards. Can't imagine they'd lock all doors and force students into just one entrance per building, even that would seem impossible.

I wonder if some of these mandates are going to be based on the honour system. Or only enforceable for registered students and official visitors (speakers, guest lecturers etc).

Because enforcing it for a random joe who decides to stop by Mac Hall for lunch doesn't seem feasible.

There's no way to enforce it. My daughter's going into Grade 12 this year, so I took her to the University this summer to show her what it's all about. All of the doors were locked, only to be opened by those with a OneCard, but we managed to tailgate into any building and go basically anywhere we wanted to. You can try to enforce access at the University, but it's way too spread out, and there are way too many people there for it to work.

It is essentially the honor system although it sounds like (for students/staff) the stick is similar to what outer businesses are doing - your declaration you are vaccinated will be what is used to enforce this. A false declaration could be considered grounds for dismissal. Talking to my kids yesterday and their understanding is these latest updates comes into effect for Winter session which is January. So basically they are giving students time to get vaccinated which is fair.

[opendoor]

Some good news out of the UK regarding lasting protection against hospitalization. For Pfizer, it seems like protection is holding up quite well over time, and given that the UK went with the longer interval as well this should probably hold true for Canada.

Unfortunately, AstraZeneca is seeing a bigger drop off (though the confidence intervals are wide), which makes their talk of not needing boosters a bit puzzling.

https://i.imgur.com/0gHNyRN.png

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1017309/S1362_PHE_duration_of_protection_of_COVID-19_vaccines_against_clinical_disease.pdf

[Minnie]

No, I did not get any notice from AHS. I just noticed that medical need, or travel requirements are the acceptable reasons.

There are qualifications on the medical need part of it. My daughter is going in, mid October, to have the rest of her thyroid removed due to a papillary thyroid carcinoma diagnosis. This is on top of a metabolic disorder & a connective tissue disorder that means her immune system is :poo:

But, despite all that, she can't get a 3rd booster, but if her dad & I decided to take a trip to the Bahamas, as somewhat reasonably healthy 2 doses vaxxed people, we can just waltz in and get a 3rd dose. That kind of irks me.

[Hot_Flatus]

There are qualifications on the medical need part of it. My daughter is going in, mid October, to have the rest of her thyroid removed due to a papillary thyroid carcinoma diagnosis. This is on top of a metabolic disorder & a connective tissue disorder that means her immune system is :poo:

But, despite all that, she can't get a 3rd booster, but if her dad & I decided to take a trip to the Bahamas, as somewhat reasonably healthy 2 doses vaxxed people, we can just waltz in and get a 3rd dose. That kind of irks me.

Did you try just going to a Pharmacy and telling them that she's immunocompromised? I'd find it incredibly surprising if any Pharmacist put up any resistance. Infact, most would be more than happy to dish out the shot as they are battling wastage on a daily basis.

[mivdo]

My dad just got his third dose. He has kidney disease and does dialysis. He got a letter from his doctor that he qualifies for a booster. Maybe try talking to your doctor.

[Minnie]

Did you try just going to a Pharmacy and telling them that she's immunocompromised? I'd find it incredibly surprising if any Pharmacist put up any resistance. Infact, most would be more than happy to dish out the shot as they are battling wastage on a daily basis.

I could try but our pharmacy already refused her, and they're well acquainted with her diagnoses. We are at the Foot next week, to see pre-op, with a couple of different doctors, one of whom is from internal medicine. We'll ask him to see if we can get a doc to sign off on her needing to have it, otherwise we'll just try walking in somewhere and seeing if she can get it. We're taking her random camping near Radium for a few days so we're away from people, leaving Thursday, as a last minute break before surgery and seeing oncology, so I'll try a random pharmacy when we get back.

My dad just got his third dose. He has kidney disease and does dialysis. He got a letter from his doctor that he qualifies for a booster. Maybe try talking to your doctor.

I'd love to, if the man was even around, of late. He's been gone on holidays more than he's been in office the last 2 months & he's booked solid. I don't begrudge him the holidays, it's only him in his office, but it has made it difficult to even be seen. Hence asking the internal med doc for a letter. Probably a better chance getting one from him because we'll see him in a week, long before I could get an appointment with our GP and ideally, I'd like her to have had the booster prior to surgery.

[FlameOn]

In other news, Covid-19 found to harm sex function, and fertility in both men and women. Vaccines had no effect. So reproductive selection against anti-vaxxers?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-vaccines-show-no-signs-of-harming-fertility-or-sexual-function/?amp=true&__twitter_impression=true

Moderna is in trials with a combined Flu, COVID-19 and RSV shot

[Canadianman]

registered for the third dose (AZ, Pfizer) and was texted immediately saying I was eligible for it. booked an appointment for this afternoon, walked over to my local pharmacy and got it done.


easy peasy. The one-stop booking website is much better.

[cgy-sk-import]

No, I did not get any notice from AHS. I just noticed that medical need, or travel requirements are the acceptable reasons.

You don't appear to be eligible. I'm not saying it's not possible that you are getting it since pharmacists are likely swimming in doses... just not sure why you're going for a 3rd dose now.

[Lubicon]

registered for the third dose (AZ, Pfizer) and was texted immediately saying I was eligible for it. booked an appointment for this afternoon, walked over to my local pharmacy and got it done.


easy peasy. The one-stop booking website is much better.

Pretty much the same for me. Registered, received instant notification to book, and found an appointment I can hit on the way home Thursday. Super easy.

[Amethyst]

I booked my third dose on September 1, as soon as I was eligible. The first option I was offered was less than an hour later. I chose one the next day, as I didn't think I would have time to get to the location that quickly.

[Manhattanboy]

I just heard about a dude in Toronto who has had four shots. I’m assuming his first was AZ early on and that he just received a third Pfizer booster.

Obviously he’s a pro-vaxxer lol.

[TorqueDog]

You don't appear to be eligible. I'm not saying it's not possible that you are getting it since pharmacists are likely swimming in doses... just not sure why you're going for a 3rd dose now.Mixed doses for your first are justification for your third dose for the purposes of travel. So whether you're imminently travelling internationally or just being proactive for when you are ready to travel, they aren't doing anything frowned upon.

[opendoor]

The fact that mixed doses are a travel issue is so ridiculous. The UK is only using mRNA vaccines for boosters (other than for allergy reasons), so the ~25M people who got AZ are going to be mixing, yet at present they won't recognize a mixed dose regimen for entry to their country.

[Street Pharmacist]

The fact that mixed doses are a travel issue is so ridiculous. The UK is only using mRNA vaccines for boosters (other than for allergy reasons), so the ~25M people who got AZ are going to be mixing, yet at present they won't recognize a mixed dose regimen for entry to their country.

And for Cripe's sake we have data too! There's just zero reason

[TorqueDog]

The fact that mixed doses are a travel issue is so ridiculous. The UK is only using mRNA vaccines for boosters (other than for allergy reasons), so the ~25M people who got AZ are going to be mixing, yet at present they won't recognize a mixed dose regimen for entry to their country.Every country has a set of vaccines they have approved and dosing regimens that they consider valid. We're one of them, we just so happen to allow for mixed doses.

What Canada recognizes (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines.html) vs what's out there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_COVID-19_vaccine_authorizations).

[REDVAN]

You don't appear to be eligible. I'm not saying it's not possible that you are getting it since pharmacists are likely swimming in doses... just not sure why you're going for a 3rd dose now.
Nevermind.

[agulati]

Would someone flying down to the States who has two Pfizer doses be eligible for a third dose then? Or is it just for those with mixed doses?

[EldrickOnIce]

Would someone flying down to the States who has two Pfizer doses be eligible for a third dose then? Or is it just for those with mixed doses?

Currently mixed doses only

[Knut]

Extremely thorough data here form the UK about waning immmunity. Some good and bad news in it.

1) over 65 should get a third shot

2) 12 week interval better than 3 week

3) still good protection against severe outcomes

1438100712441974786

[opendoor]

Those 20+ week numbers for AZ are a bit concerning, and explains why they're doing boosters soon:

Effectiveness against hospitalization after 20 weeks:

16+:

AZ: 77.0%
Pfizer: 92.7%

40-64:

AZ: 64.8%
Pfizer: 95.7%

65+:

AZ: 76.3%
Pfizer: 90.7%

It also makes the statements recently from the Oxford vaccine people saying they didn't believe boosters would be needed for their vaccine baffling.

[Roughneck]

What about the mixed doses. I seem to recall somebody showing data that supported the AZ+mRNA had better efficacy than 2 x mRNA or 2 x AZ. Or maybe that just pertained to a specific variant. Or maybe I'm not remembering it correctly at all.

[opendoor]

I don't think they've done any efficacy studies, but the immune response from AZ -> mRNA was quite good and comparable to 2 mRNA doses (and there was some evidence of superior cellular response with the mixed dose). So I would expect a person with a mixed dose would see performance on par with the Pfizer numbers (all else being equal).

[Fuzz]

I don't think they've done any efficacy studies, but the immune response from AZ -> mRNA was quite good and comparable to 2 mRNA doses (and there was some evidence of superior cellular response with the mixed dose). So I would expect a person with a mixed dose would see performance on par with the Pfizer numbers (all else being equal).
And if you have mixed doses, you can get a 3rd, which should allay any concerns people might have.

[Darkknight]

I have no doubt this will not be received well, but I feel like I need to share this somewhere and there are definitely perks to internet anonymity.

My wife and I are both in our mid thirties and have 3 children all under 7. Our children are up to date with all their vaccines with our oldest currently in first grade.

My wife and I have not been vaccinated for covid. Now I'm sure your initial reaction to this is that we must be uneducated (not accurate, I have my masters and my wife has a fine arts degree) or that we are conspiracy theorists. We don't belive the government is trying to track you or this is all some grand scheme from Bill Gates.

Covid went through our home in April, before either of us were eligible for the vaccine here in Alberta. We had relatively minor symptoms and aside from myself still not being able to taste or smell at 100%, we have had no long lasting effects. So I clearly know covid is not a hoax.

So why have we not been vaccinated? Well recent studies have shown that natural immunity is everybody as good if not better than the vaccines. I do understand that these are early studies, but everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses would indicate that natural immunity is likely.

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated. While it is entirely possible that it is merely a coincidence, there are reports of side effects from the vaccines. So why would I risk potential serious side effects for a medical procedure, that after having the virus already, seems unnecessary?

If I am completely out to lunch on this, I am more than happy to have a discussion, which is why I am making this post I suppose. I just haven't seen anything like this posted on here before so I thought it may be beneficial for those who are condemning individuals like myself to maybe take a moment and see where others may find themselves.

For the record I do support an immunity passport like we've seen in places in Europe, but I do feel like a vaccine passport goes against everything we know about the spread of this disease and immunity in general.

My apologies for the wall of text.

[Fuzz]

Well then. The science says you made the wrong choice. All medical experts say to get vaccinated. Vaccines +prior infection is about as good as you can get. Not getting vaccinated is choosing to interpret science you do not understand. It is also incredibly selfish to society. Go book your appointment today.

[GGG]

Why didn’t you get your vaccine between recovering from Covid and the study coming out suggesting that Covid then 1 vaccine provides the highest level of immunity?

Even allowing 3 months for recovery between Covid and getting your vaccine that would still put you getting your vaccine well before this study came out.

So I would ask yourself if you really are following the science right now or are latching on to a part of a study that somewhat backs your underlying fears and justifies you not being vaccinated.

[TorqueDog]

So why have we not been vaccinated? Well recent studies have shown that natural immunity is everybody as good if not better than the vaccines. I do understand that these are early studies, but everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses would indicate that natural immunity is likely. Those same studies also show that previous infection plus the vaccines provide superior protection to COVID versus previous infection alone. I also know a couple unvaccinated people who have already caught COVID twice. Experts… as in the ones actually studying viruses professionally… all suggest that vaccination with previous infection provides superior protection. Experts in fields unrelated to epidemiology who researched using Google may have conflicting opinions.

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated. While it is entirely possible that it is merely a coincidence, there are reports of side effects from the vaccines. So why would I risk potential serious side effects for a medical procedure, that after having the virus already, seems unnecessary? Risk of stroke from COVID is significantly higher than the risks of the vaccine, not to mention the other potential complications, but you seem to not have considered that risk in deciding not to vaccinate. The risks from the vaccine pale in comparison to the virus, there are plenty of stats on this, and I’m unable to explain how you’ve not come across them unless you were only researching data that supported your desire not to get the shot in the first place.

If I am completely out to lunch on this, I am more than happy to have a discussion, which is why I am making this post I suppose. I just haven't seen anything like this posted on here before so I thought it may be beneficial for those who are condemning individuals like myself to maybe take a moment and see where others may find themselves. What you’re doing is placing high value on low probability (vaccine-related strokes) in the face of other, much higher probability risks. There’s very little about anything you’ve typed here that is a unique viewpoint, aside perhaps from the fact you said it in a reasonable tone. We have been discussing this ad nauseam since vaccination first became available.

For the record I do support an immunity passport like we've seen in places in Europe, but I do feel like a vaccine passport goes against everything we know about the spread of this disease and immunity in general.A vaccine passport is needed here and now because people who seem smart enough to know better (some anyway) use faulty logic to justify not doing the right thing. They won’t pull in the same direction as the rest of society who wants this thing over, and as a result they’re ending up clogging the hospitals and ICUs. The numbers show this very plainly and there is no “unvaccinated but caught COVID already” bucket, unvaccinated means unvaccinated.

There is enough reading in this forum alone that you should be able to find all the reasons why you should be seeking to get your immunizations up to date. I’m sure others will give you reasons too. And I’m not sorry that restaurants who want to survive are going to make the correct decision that much more difficult for you to resist.

[photon]

To add it seems that it isn't quite as simple as "I had it so I'm immune". It does seem to vary significantly from person to person, one factor being the severity of the sickness. If it's not severe enough or if it's too severe then the immunity can be less. I don't think this area is understood enough to be confident in natural immunity alone.

Plus as mentioned natural immunity + vaccine seems to be more effective (twice as effective in a recent CDC study)

[Harry Lime]

I can see where Darknight is coming from. Previously having covid seems to put the chance of getting it again somewhere between AZ and mRNA. The efficacy keeping from hospitalization if you catch it a second time appears to be excellent.

Yes, getting vaccine+ does give better protection, but since herd immunity is impossible with the current vaccine and he (and his wife) are already protecting the health care system with the antibodies themselves... they should be fine.

There should be an antibody test, so that people recovered from covid can be given altered status for passports (or whatever the AB thing is). On the pointing and yelling SCIENCE at people, they should land above people with one shot.

[Wastedyouth]

You still can't taste or smell 100% almost 6 months later.

This doesnt worry you?

The simple fact that you have noticeable long term effects from the virus, does it not worry you what your unnoticed long term effects are?

Your risk reward matrix here seems to be seriously out to lunch.

[Firebot]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection.

The best immunity is fully vaccinated + getting covid

Just getting covid while unvaccinated does not offer long term protection and you are at risk of reinfection.

[Plett25]

It is also incredibly selfish to society. Go book your appointment today.
Perfect is the enemy of good.

People like Dark knight aren't the problem.

[Darkknight]

As expected looking at most of the responses, it's just a demand for vaccination without actually looking at what has been said.

I do understand that the chances of ill effects from the vaccine are minimal but they still exist. So why take that chance (however minimal) when it seems unnecessary.

As for questions regarding earlier vaccination options, it was my family doctor's opinion to wait 6 months after recovery before getting vaccinated, as it has been shown individuals who have recently removed from covid can have more serious side effects from vaccination.

[Wastedyouth]

As expected looking at most of the responses, it's just a demand for vaccination without actually looking at what has been said.

I do understand that the chances of ill effects from the vaccine are minimal but they still exist. So why take that chance (however minimal) when it seems unnecessary.

As for questions regarding earlier vaccination options, it was my family doctor's opinion to wait 6 months after recovery before getting vaccinated, as it has been shown individuals who have recently removed from covid can have more serious side effects from vaccination.

But the vaccine is a known risk. Getting covid again, is an unknown risk. You got away with only losing some of your taste and smell, next time you may not be so lucky.

You've decided to instead of go with the safe 100$ prize at roullette, to risking it all on the next spin.

And we all know how that typically works out for people.

[Darkknight]

You still can't taste or smell 100% almost 6 months later.

This doesnt worry you?

The simple fact that you have noticeable long term effects from the virus, does it not worry you what your unnoticed long term effects are?

Your risk reward matrix here seems to be seriously out to lunch.

Would getting vaccinated now help me with that recovery? The answer, in case are unaware, is no.

Will being infected earlier provide a similar level of protection as the current vaccines. Studies show that is likely.

It seems to me there are no real benefits to the vaccines at this point in time for someone in my situation. That is where my risk/reward matrix falls.

[Wastedyouth]

Would getting vaccinated now help me with that recovery? The answer, in case are unaware, is no.

Will being infected earlier provide a similar level of protection as the current vaccines. Studies show that is likely.

It seems to me there are no real benefits to the vaccines at this point in time for someone in my situation. That is where my risk/reward matrix falls.

Please share?

Because I do not believe this is the case. Or at least, you may be working off of studies that were not completed or have been found to be incorrect at this point.

[Barnes]

So then pay for Covid tests until you are vaccinated.

People like Darkknight aren't the problem but they also aint part of the solution.

[Ryan Coke]

Darkknight, I appreciate the tone and asking the questions, even though some take it as an opportunity to berate.

As has been said, the risks of vaccination are still way, way, way lower than risks from Covid infection. So if you aren’t worried about possible issues from reinfection, then you shouldn’t have a second thought about the remote risks of the vaccine.

I also hear from some “vaccine sceptical” about how they know of a number of people that had serious side effects after vaccination. I have to admit to being very sceptical of those claims. I know of absolutely nobody that had any significant side effects from the vaccine, many people of all ages. And the actual data reflects this. And if strokes were widespread after vaccination, our hospitals would be filling with vaccine side effect patients, and there is no word of that occurring.

So either the scientific data is correct, or there is a widespread cover up involving all the front line health workers. If a person decides they believe in the cover up theory, then none of the other information really matters.

[Scroopy Noopers]

As expected looking at most of the responses, it's just a demand for vaccination without actually looking at what has been said. .

That is your honest takeaway of the last page???

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Perfect is the enemy of good.

People like Dark knight aren't the problem.

I don't think you understand what that saying means. At all. Because unvaccinated people are 100% the problem. Full stop.

[Ryan Coke]

The data I’ve seen indicates natural infection isn’t as good as double dosed, but infection plus vaccine is better then double dosed.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

That is your honest takeaway of the last page???

Like most anti vaxxers it seems clear that DK is just faking being legitimately vaccine hesitant for real health related reasons, has already made up their mind and has no intention of engaging in an honest discussion to try and have their mind changed.

It's a common tactic amongst the selfish/unvaccinated. They want to validate their selfish decision and by making the vaccinated out to be villains who are big ole meanies, it allows them to rationalize being the cause of so many unnecessary deaths and serious health outcomes for the vulnerable.

You think the unvaccinated are blind to all the deaths they are responsible for causing? Of course not. They know their decisions are killing both the unvaccinated and the vaccinated but vulnerable. But they need a way to skirt taking responsibility for their actions. This is how they do it. Otherwise they might have to admit their selfishness is literally killing people and we know they aren't big on even the simplest of personal responsibility, let alone coming to terms with their own selfishness directly causing the deaths of other people's loved ones.

[GordonBlue]

To add it seems that it isn't quite as simple as "I had it so I'm immune". It does seem to vary significantly from person to person, one factor being the severity of the sickness. If it's not severe enough or if it's too severe then the immunity can be less. I don't think this area is understood enough to be confident in natural immunity alone.

Plus as mentioned natural immunity + vaccine seems to be more effective (twice as effective in a recent CDC study)

I also hate the argument that "I'm young, fit and healthy, so I don't feel I have to worry about COVID affecting me badly."

It drives me nuts every time I read something along those lines. That and people thinking since they didn't have a bad case of covid the first time, it probably won't be bad the second time.

just seems that most seemingly rational non vaxxed people misjudge the level of risk they're taking by not getting vaccinated, and vastly overstating the very small risks of the vaccine.

I had a talk yesterday with an older family member who has refused to get vaccinated so far. I was pretty blunt about my feelings on their continued decision not to get a shot, especially with health care breaking down.

[undercoverbrother]

Would getting vaccinated now help me with that recovery? The answer, in case are unaware, is no.

Will being infected earlier provide a similar level of protection as the current vaccines. Studies show that is likely.

It seems to me there are no real benefits to the vaccines at this point in time for someone in my situation. That is where my risk/reward matrix falls.

You don't seem open to feedback or communication.

The responses to you have been polite and to the point.

Honestly, I don't think you even came here to discuss vaccinations.

I think you came here to "Make a Point".

I'm not sure what your masters degree is in, but I'm not sure a fine arts degree sets your wife up with all the scientific skills needed.

I too have a degree, but I can still listen and learn.

You don't seem willing to do that.'

Also your three stroke friends. I hope they recover from their strokes with no or minimal side affects.

My father in law and my aunt that died from COVID won't recover.

[peter12]

You’re choosing to believe what you want to believe. Every single expert has said hybrid immunity is the best possible place to be for someone in your situation.

Also “risks” like 1 in 250,000 are basically incalculable by your brain. You undertake a dozen things more dangerous every single day.

[Jay's Beagle]

I also hate the argument that "I'm young, fit and healthy, so I don't feel I have to worry about COVID affecting me badly."

It drives me nuts every time I read something along those lines. That and people thinking since they didn't have a bad case of covid the first time, it probably won't be bad the second time.

just seems that most seemingly rational non vaxxed people misjudge the level of risk they're taking by not getting vaccinated, and vastly overstating the very small risks of the vaccine.

I had a talk yesterday with an older family member who has refused to get vaccinated so far. I was pretty blunt about my feelings on their continued decision not to get a shot, especially with health care breaking down.

BuT JoE RoGaN SaYs take your vitamins, horse dewormer and you’ll be fine.

I couldn’t agree more with you.

[Bill Bumface]

It seems to me there are no real benefits to the vaccines at this point in time for someone in my situation. That is where my risk/reward matrix falls.

You mentioned you still cant smell or taste 100%.

Did you happen to do lung function tests before and after your illness? There is a very real chance you could have some minor lung damage. Anecdotally, my mom had pneumonia a few times, and now has some light lung damage that makes her very sensitive to respiratory illnesses, and susceptible to recurring pneumonia. This will be a big problem as she ages.

We know for a fact you're at risk of reinfection and adding to any lung damage that may or may not be there, as well as a host of other issues.

How many people have died from the mRNA vaccines? How many have died from a second case of COVID?

You mentioned your kids are vaccinated. The safety profile of all those vaccines is not much different than COVID.

Why not just let your kids get measles etc and hope that they come out of it ok?

Even the AZ vaccine, which had the scariest safety profile with the blood clots, was safer to take than deciding on going for a drive to Banff and back.

It's natural that knowing someone who suffered side effects makes them more real and scarier than when it's just a number on the internet, but when doing a risk reward calculation here, the safest thing you can do for yourselves is get the vaccine.

Now you need to look at our full hospitals. If you get the vaccine, you are definitely less likely to contract COVID again. We have people currently missing their cancer treatments. ICUs are full. The community spread of COVID is absolutely shortening the lives of people who are essentially innocent bystanders. Do you want to be a vector for COVID that is going to be part of that problem? Or a relatively safe vaccine to be part of the solution and help save lives?

[Darkknight]

Please share?

Because I do not believe this is the case. Or at least, you may be working off of studies that were not completed or have been found to be incorrect at this point.


https://science.thewire.in/health/natural-immunity-covid-19-greater-protection-delta-variant-vaccines-israel-study/

Is an excerpt from the study that's been referenced. I don't believe this study has been refuted, but if it has I would be interested in seeing that. I've seen it referenced in the Washington Post as well for whatever that's worth.

[Scroopy Noopers]

https://science.thewire.in/health/natural-immunity-covid-19-greater-protection-delta-variant-vaccines-israel-study/

Is an excerpt from the study that's been referenced. I don't believe this study has been refuted, but if it has I would be interested in seeing that. I've seen it referenced in the Washington Post as well for whatever that's worth.

https://i.imgur.com/J8qRiNS.jpg

[peter12]

https://science.thewire.in/health/natural-immunity-covid-19-greater-protection-delta-variant-vaccines-israel-study/

Is an excerpt from the study that's been referenced. I don't believe this study has been refuted, but if it has I would be interested in seeing that. I've seen it referenced in the Washington Post as well for whatever that's worth.

“The study also found that individuals who were previously infected with the novel coronavirus and had received a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine appeared to have gained additional protection against the delta variant.“

Go get your shot now.

[getbak]

Nearly 3 million Albertans have received at least one dose of the vaccine. Fewer than 1,500 have had any kind of reported adverse reaction to the vaccine. That is approximately 1 adverse reaction for every 2,000 vaccinated people.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccinations




There have been 52,447 Albertans between the ages of 30 and 39 who have been diagnosed with COVID since this began. 1,155 have required hospitalization -- about 1 in every 45 cases. 181 have spent time in the ICU -- about 1 in every 290 cases.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#severe-outcomes




With Delta, those outcomes are even worse. In the last 120 days, 10,651 Albertans in their 30s have tested positive for COVID. 428 of those have required hospitalization -- about 1 in every 25 cases. 85 have spent time in the ICU -- about 1 in every 125 cases.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#vaccine-outcomes

[Wastedyouth]

By the way Darkknight, my very good friend who is very vaccine hesitant had Covid in the winter of 2020. He did not get the shot because he thinks like you, he is now in the hospital being monitored to see if he will have to go into the ICU.

Having the virus once is no protection. That is VERY clear through the data as well as anecdotally.

[Darkknight]

You mentioned you still cant smell or taste 100%.

Did you happen to do lung function tests before and after your illness? There is a very real chance you could have some minor lung damage. Anecdotally, my mom had pneumonia a few times, and now has some light lung damage that makes her very sensitive to respiratory illnesses, and susceptible to recurring pneumonia. This will be a big problem as she ages.

We know for a fact you're at risk of reinfection and adding to any lung damage that may or may not be there, as well as a host of other issues.

How many people have died from the mRNA vaccines? How many have died from a second case of COVID?

You mentioned your kids are vaccinated. The safety profile of all those vaccines is not much different than COVID.

Why not just let your kids get measles etc and hope that they come out of it ok?

Even the AZ vaccine, which had the scariest safety profile with the blood clots, was safer to take than deciding on going for a drive to Banff and back.

It's natural that knowing someone who suffered side effects makes them more real and scarier than when it's just a number on the internet, but when doing a risk reward calculation here, the safest thing you can do for yourselves is get the vaccine.

Now you need to look at our full hospitals. If you get the vaccine, you are definitely less likely to contract COVID again. We have people currently missing their cancer treatments. ICUs are full. The community spread of COVID is absolutely shortening the lives of people who are essentially innocent bystanders. Do you want to be a vector for COVID that is going to be part of that problem? Or a relatively safe vaccine to be part of the solution and help save lives?

I appreciate the informative post you've made. In regards to the lung function tests I've never had anything officially tested, but my performance in the gym seems pretty similar before and after.

The study I cited seems to indicate previous infection has lower rate of reinfection than even the vaccines, and as I said if that study is not accurate I would be curious to see that as well.

I know this is hyperbole but I currently look at my situation as essentially, I could get a heart transplant and it has slightly lower resting heart rate. Is it worth the risk of complications for what could be considered a minimal improvement?

Like I said I know its hyperbole, but it's essentially where I'm coming from.

[PepsiFree]

https://science.thewire.in/health/natural-immunity-covid-19-greater-protection-delta-variant-vaccines-israel-study/

Is an excerpt from the study that's been referenced. I don't believe this study has been refuted, but if it has I would be interested in seeing that. I've seen it referenced in the Washington Post as well for whatever that's worth.

That study hasn't been peer reviewed, which may or may not make a difference, but there are also some flaws in the study. You can read this comment from the study page:

Dear colleagues,

With interest did we read this manuscript which fueled a lively discussion during our journal club of the department of infectious diseases epidemiology at the University Medical Center Utrecht. The authors address a relevant research question. If there is a substantial difference in the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infections between previously infected and vaccinated individuals – as suggested - this may have consequences for social distancing, testing recommendations, and for projections of the impact of vaccination on future COVID-19 trends. However, we have several concerns regarding generalizability, selection bias, information bias, and confounding that we would like to address. We focus our discussion on model 1: the comparison of the fully vaccinated non-infected group (group 1) to the infected non-vaccinated group (group 2).

In regard to generalizability:
- Due to the matching process, only 4% of the available data is used (i.e. for model 1 only 32430/736559) and as a consequence the study population is fairly younger (with expectedly less comorbidity) than the source population (i.e. vaccinated individuals, infected individuals). Therefore, the study population may not be representative of this source population which severely limits the external validity of results for all vaccinated/infected people.
- Naturally, subjects who died due to previous SARS-CoV-2 infection were not included in the study. Yet, without information on morbidity and mortality and contribution to the spread of SARS-CoV-2 from the primary infection, the results of the study are not informative for the question whether people without previous SARS-CoV-2 infection should be vaccinated or await natural infection.
- All three study groups – vaccinated or infected at baseline (28th of February) – were established upon future information (no infection, no additional vaccination after June 1, 2021), which severely limits the use of the results for today’s decision making.

In regard to selection bias:
- People with a SARS-CoV-2 infection between February 28, 2021 and June 1, 2021, or those who received a first (infected group) or third vaccine (vaccinated group) between February 28, 2021 and August 14, 2021 were excluded from this study. Thus the study population of group 2 consists of previously infected people that do not take the opportunity to receive a booster vaccine, which may well be the less vulnerable people with a lower baseline risk of getting infected/hospitalized. This would bias the estimate in favor of the infected group.
- Similarly, though at a smaller scale, people who died from COVID were not included in the analysis. This decreases the vulnerability of the infected group for secondary infections and/or hospitalization. This too would bias the estimate in favor of the infected group.

In regard to information bias:
- A difference in willingness to test between the vaccinated and previously infected group can result in biased estimates. Vaccinated people may be more on guard in regard to COVID-19 symptoms (especially if they adhere less to regulations because they are vaccinated) and will be tested more frequently. This can bias the estimate, again in favor of the infected group. However, this form of bias should not have affected the outcome hospitalization due to COVID-19, for which differences had the same direction. Yet, the number of those endpoints was low, limiting statistical power.

In regard to confounding:
- The authors acknowledge absence of information about health behavior, such as social distancing and masking. If the vaccinated group would adhere less to these preventive measures due to a sense of safety, this would also bias the estimates in favor of the infected group.
- A potential important aspect is the young average age (36 years) of the study population. As they were all fully vaccinated before February 28th, we thought that a large proportion may have been health care workers, who have a higher chance of exposure to SARS-CoV-2, and thus infection after vaccination. This would also bias the estimate in favor of the infected group.

We have scrutinized the paper in search of the fatal flaw; the one major methodological limitation that could explain the extreme effect in favor of the infected group, as reported. We conclude that it is not there, as we don’t think that any of the above biases can explain all of the effect. However, we did found several weaknesses that each have the potential to yield a modest bias, all in the same direction. Five modest biases may yield a large effect estimate. We, therefore, consider the question whether natural immunity provides better protection than full vaccination with Pfizer/BioNTech’s COVID vaccine remains unanswered.

The authors (Annemarijn de Boer, Valentijn Schweitzer, Marc Bonten and Henri van Werkhoven, all at University Medical Center Utrecht) acknowledge all other journal club participants for their time dedicated to discussing the paper.

Basically, common sense suggests that a layman does not make decisions about their own health against the advice of medical professionals based on one study which has not yet been peer-reviewed.

You're free to do what you want, but I suppose you'll spend the next month paying $100 for a test each time you and your family want to participate with the rest of society in non-essential activities, which is fine. I don't necessarily see the value or logic in any of your decision making, but you're confident, so enjoy.

[DFO]

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated.

That statement seems unlikely. And even if it were true wouldn't it be near statistically impossible they were all attributable to covid vaccine?

[Barnes]

I appreciate the informative post you've made. In regards to the lung function tests I've never had anything officially tested, but my performance in the gym seems pretty similar before and after.

The study I cited seems to indicate previous infection has lower rate of reinfection than even the vaccines, and as I said if that study is not accurate I would be curious to see that as well.

I know this is hyperbole but I currently look at my situation as essentially, I could get a heart transplant and it has slightly lower resting heart rate. Is it worth the risk of complications for what could be considered a minimal improvement?

Like I said I know its hyperbole, but it's essentially where I'm coming from.

That's not hyperbole, it's a fallacious argument.

To be clear, outside of the proven superior protection provided by the vaccine,
you will not be able to go to the gym without a vaccine passport or paying hundreds of dollars for tests every week.

[PepsiFree]

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated.

That statement seems unlikely. And even if it were true wouldn't it be near statistically impossible they were all attributable to covid?

It's actually pretty cool! The odds of knowing 3 people who reported having a stroke after a COVID vaccination (keeping in mind this number is strictly correlation, without any evidence of causation) is 1/1,181,470.

To put it in perspective, the odds of being struck by lightning are about 1/1,000,000 and the odds of being killed by a meteorite is 1/700,000.

Darkknight is pretty lucky, really! Not "win the lottery" lucky, but definitely closer than most of us!

[DoubleF]

I get that quite a few of you held back your snark and vitriol against DarkKnight, but if you guys actually think that the vast majority of it was as "polite" as you think it was overall, stop kidding yourself. Many of us are frustrated and looking for an outlet. It's inherently obvious to many standing on the opposite stance as your own. This is why many people are entrenching themselves and pulling out of any opportunity to have any meaningful discussion that might sway them towards vaccination. I'd perceive maybe a quarter of those responses, if viewed from the other side (ie: DarkKnight's POV), might feel respectful. I totally get where many of you are coming from. Not automatically tearing him a new one and berating him as if he was an Oiler fan is a pretty big investment of emotional energy for many of you. I respect that. But from the opposite side POV, it's not enough of an "effort" to feel like they are being treated with respect to their POV. While restrained, many comments still could be perceived to be dripping with an underlying attitude that doesn't feel nice to address. I could see someone like DarkKnight being extra sensitive to some of the criticism and "flinch" easily. If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel like that's how I'd respond when just reading many of the responses.

This was what I was trying to mention and address a few days ago. I have been trying to understand both sides.

I understand why many of you are saying DarkKnight's stance is not helping the overall pandemic. I don't disagree with you. But in all honesty, the predominant approach that was used as a group (not all posts specifically) isn't helping either. DarkKnight is probably more likely to just retreat and ignore all that has been said so far purely due to the fact he probably feels like crap after the vast majority of the responses here. Don't pat yourself on the back thinking that a information dump mic drop with slightly restrained snark is doing your part in moving us towards reaching herd immunity because that approach is IMO just as unhelpful as DarkKnight's stance. A preaching to the choir stance (basically bible bashing and hellfire fear mongering) approach is going to be ineffective to someone who doesn't subscribe to the exact same belief as you. It never has been a highly effective approach, why would it suddenly be an effective one now?


I spoke with the unvaccinated friend yesterday briefly maybe a minute or two at most. It was hard to encroach on the topic. It was basically along the lines of:

Both: Damn, new pandemic restrictions starting tomorrow. That sucks.
Unvax: I basically only meet up with family (multi generation unvaxx), so nothing really changes for us. **Entrenched attitude.
Me: We had a birthday party planned this weekend. I guess we'll be breaking the rules as well. Do you think the vaccine verification system will be a pain?
Unvax: We do takeout now if we order out, so it won't really affect what we do that much.
Me: But it's still nice to sit in a restaurant for the ambience sometimes though, right?
Unvax: Yeah, maybe.

Again, maybe what I did was a waste of time. My goal was not to immediately attempt to convert the other person, but to soften their stance against getting the vaccination. My hopes was that leading the conversation towards an idea of FOMO and hoping that FOMO grows enough that my friend might do what's necessary to get past what is keeping her and her family from getting vaccinated so that they won't miss out. I don't know why she and her family won't vaccinate. To a certain extent, it doesn't matter. She started off with perhaps a mentality that there's no reason for her to vaccinate, but I tried mentioning FOMO to see if she might on her own decide that maybe there is a reason to vaccinate. That's the approach I tried to apply from what I learned in the pod cast that was linked by the other poster.


What most people have in general is fear. DarkKnight's fear/concerns might be uncommon, but it still exists. I think the Covid label is complicating a simple concept for many. If someone has a fear of heights, compassion and incremental steps is the path to helping someone potentially over coming it. An exposure therapy or cold info approach or sharing some story about sky diving won't help and in fact might cause that person to fear heights even further. That's what you guys a basically doing to DarkKnight IMO. I'd really hope we can find a way to get DarkKnight and his wife to get double vaccinated, but whatever has been done so far I do not think it helping and in fact might be hurting the chances.

I'm saying as constructive criticism that some of you are not only not helping, but making matters worse. If some of you are going to get mad that I didn't take another swing at him like he was a pinata, there's nothing I can do about that. But please seriously contemplate whether the current approach is effective.

Also, props for DarkKnight to keep responding. The average person probably would have not bothered to respond to continue discussing long ago.

[Wastedyouth]

Good post Double F

It's really ####ing hard not to be upset.

But we do need to try harder. Because no argument is won by berating someone. You will NEVER change someone's mind through shame or degradation.

You will only ever change it by understanding and then getting them to ask themselves the right questions and questioning their own mindset. you can't do that with aggression.

Lessons I keep trying to learn every day.

[undercoverbrother]

a long post, much better worded than anything I have posted on here.

I get that quite a few of you held back your snark and vitriol against DarkKnight, but if you guys actually think that the vast majority of it was as "polite" as you think it was overall, stop kidding yourself. Many of us are frustrated and looking for an outlet. It's inherently obvious to many standing on the opposite stance as your own. This is why many people are entrenching themselves and pulling out of any opportunity to have any meaningful discussion that might sway them towards vaccination. I'd perceive maybe a quarter of those responses, if viewed from the other side (ie: DarkKnight's POV), might feel respectful. I totally get where many of you are coming from. Not automatically tearing him a new one and berating him as if he was an Oiler fan is a pretty big investment of emotional energy for many of you. I respect that. But from the opposite side POV, it's not enough of an "effort" to feel like they are being treated with respect to their POV. While restrained, many comments still could be perceived to be dripping with an underlying attitude that doesn't feel nice to address. I could see someone like DarkKnight being extra sensitive to some of the criticism and "flinch" easily. If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel like that's how I'd respond when just reading many of the responses.

This was what I was trying to mention and address a few days ago. I have been trying to understand both sides.

I understand why many of you are saying DarkKnight's stance is not helping the overall pandemic. I don't disagree with you. But in all honesty, the predominant approach that was used as a group (not all posts specifically) isn't helping either. DarkKnight is probably more likely to just retreat and ignore all that has been said so far purely due to the fact he probably feels like crap after the vast majority of the responses here. Don't pat yourself on the back thinking that a information dump mic drop with slightly restrained snark is doing your part in moving us towards reaching herd immunity because that approach is IMO just as unhelpful as DarkKnight's stance. A preaching to the choir stance (basically bible bashing and hellfire fear mongering) approach is going to be ineffective to someone who doesn't subscribe to the exact same belief as you. It never has been a highly effective approach, why would it suddenly be an effective one now?


I spoke with the unvaccinated friend yesterday briefly maybe a minute or two at most. It was hard to encroach on the topic. It was basically along the lines of:

Both: Damn, new pandemic restrictions starting tomorrow. That sucks.
Unvax: I basically only meet up with family (multi generation unvaxx), so nothing really changes for us. **Entrenched attitude.
Me: We had a birthday party planned this weekend. I guess we'll be breaking the rules as well. Do you think the vaccine verification system will be a pain?
Unvax: We do takeout now if we order out, so it won't really affect what we do that much.
Me: But it's still nice to sit in a restaurant for the ambience sometimes though, right?
Unvax: Yeah, maybe.

Again, maybe what I did was a waste of time. My goal was not to immediately attempt to convert the other person, but to soften their stance against getting the vaccination. My hopes was that leading the conversation towards an idea of FOMO and hoping that FOMO grows enough that my friend might do what's necessary to get past what is keeping her and her family from getting vaccinated so that they won't miss out. I don't know why she and her family won't vaccinate. To a certain extent, it doesn't matter. She started off with perhaps a mentality that there's no reason for her to vaccinate, but I tried mentioning FOMO to see if she might on her own decide that maybe there is a reason to vaccinate. That's the approach I tried to apply from what I learned in the pod cast that was linked by the other poster.


What most people have in general is fear. DarkKnight's fear/concerns might be uncommon, but it still exists. I think the Covid label is complicating a simple concept for many. If someone has a fear of heights, compassion and incremental steps is the path to helping someone potentially over coming it. An exposure therapy or cold info approach or sharing some story about sky diving won't help and in fact might cause that person to fear heights even further. That's what you guys a basically doing to DarkKnight IMO. I'd really hope we can find a way to get DarkKnight and his wife to get double vaccinated, but whatever has been done so far I do not think it helping and in fact might be hurting the chances.

I'm saying as constructive criticism that some of you are not only not helping, but making matters worse. If some of you are going to get mad that I didn't take another swing at him like he was a pinata, there's nothing I can do about that. But please seriously contemplate whether the current approach is effective.

Also, props for DarkKnight to keep responding. The average person probably would have not bothered to respond to continue discussing long ago.

But the thing is I honestly don't believe he came here to learn or exchange ideas. As I said I think he is here to "Make a Point" and knowing 3 people that got strokes from the vaccination is well hard to believe, but maybe he is being truthful.

[peter12]

You have a 1/700,000 chance of being killed by a meteor? Christ!

[Darkknight]

That statement seems unlikely. And even if it were true wouldn't it be near statistically impossible they were all attributable to covid vaccine?

I do agree that it is unlikely that these incidents are related to vaccination, but it does cause a moment of pause.

There is no benefit for me to fabricate a story like that to a group of individuals of whom I'm looking for advice and opinions.

I am presenting the facts to ypu as I have been made aware of them.

[Bill Bumface]

I know this is hyperbole but I currently look at my situation as essentially, I could get a heart transplant and it has slightly lower resting heart rate. Is it worth the risk of complications for what could be considered a minimal improvement?

Like I said I know its hyperbole, but it's essentially where I'm coming from.

Totally understood. Let's change the analogy a bit though to become closer in line with the actual risks of getting the vaccine.

You could lower your heart rate slightly by going for a 20 minute walk every day.

You also have a friend that tried that, but they got hit by a car and broke their leg on one of their walks. Emotion says you shouldn't do it. Looking at the odds of benefit vs. risk, you absolutely should go for the walk every day.

We know that COVID has killed a lot more relatively healthy people than the vaccines (it's not currently conclusive if anyone in Canada has died from mRNA vaccines as far as I can tell).

Overall, 68.8% (11/16) had similar severity; 18.8% (3/16) had worse symptoms; and 12.5% (2/16) had milder symptoms with the second episode.

https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253

That means to some extent you're playing the lottery with a second COVID infection as a possibility. It's proven vaccines decrease the severity.

Then also think of what happens to society (business restrictions, people losing income, full hospitals, delayed cancer treatments) and assess how much you are willing to do to prevent yourself from being a vector of potential spread. It may not feel as heroic as pulling someone from a burning building, but by going to get vaccinated, your actions contribute to saving the lives and livelihoods of others.

[tvp2003]

As for questions regarding earlier vaccination options, it was my family doctor's opinion to wait 6 months after recovery before getting vaccinated, as it has been shown individuals who have recently removed from covid can have more serious side effects from vaccination.

So your family doctor's advice was to get vaccinated, but to wait six months before doing so?

If so, are you planning on getting vaccinated in October? If you can't trust your family doctor then why not? With Delta, I suspect your family doctor would think it's even more important for you to get vaxxed.

[Darkknight]

But the thing is I honestly don't believe he came here to learn or exchange ideas. As I said I think he is here to "Make a Point" and knowing 3 people that got strokes from the vaccination is well hard to believe, but maybe he is being truthful.

First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if you aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.

[undercoverbrother]

First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if your aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.

As I said earlier people have posted polite rebuttals, including using the study you posted, yet at no point have you are steadfast in your position.

“The study also found that individuals who were previously infected with the novel coronavirus and had received a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine appeared to have gained additional protection against the delta variant.“

Go get your shot now.

What do you need to be swayed, what evidence is needed to change your view?

Do you know what you want to see or are you not changing your opinion.

[Fuzz]

First and foremost, I did not state the vaccine was the cause for the strokes just as it was worth a pause.

Secondly, if I was here to "make a point" would flyby not been more effective, rather than responding to posts and engaging in discussion?

I personally just lost a close friend due to complications with covid, and now with the restrictions it is unlikely I will be able to attend his funeral.

Do not assume to know my motivations, and if your aren't interested in discussion I kindly ask you to refrain responding to my posts.
What is it that makes you hesitant?



Is it the stroke risks? Those have been explained to be worse with covid.
Is it that you think you are protected? Protection is better with a vaccine.


What, specifically, is the hesitancy? Have you make a pluses and minuses list of getting or not getting it? It's tough for us to understand, because the logic of your situation makes it impossible to select your postilion. Plus most of us are kinda pissed off right now, if you haven't noticed...

[Darkknight]

So your family doctor's advice was to get vaccinated, but to wait six months before doing so?

If so, are you planning on getting vaccinated in October? If you can't trust your family doctor then why not? With Delta, I suspect your family doctor would think it's even more important for you to get vaxxed.

The plan was to get vaxxed in October. Which is why I've waited for this long. I was ready to get vaxxed before we got sick but as stated on doctors advice, we've waited.

Now that some studies, flawed or not, have come out saying that natural immunity is strong it has made me question whether getting vaccinated is necessary or worth the potential (albeit) small risks.

[Drak]

It's highly improbable that 3 close associates would have had a stroke from the vaccine. In fact, if this were true, we'd probably would have seen some significant news on it, because those odds of that happening astronomical.

There is also no scientific report that I've see that shows that once you've had covid, you're golden.

The fact is, the vaccines are pretty damned safe, offer serious protection, and they're free. And it doesn't hurt getting tapped in the arm.

[DeluxeMoustache]

You have a 1/700,000 chance of being killed by a meteor? Christ!


I’ve topped up my meteor insurance

[Drak]

I’ve topped up my meteor insurance

Some of those space rocks contain valuable resources. Insurance AND diamonds.

[rohara66]

The risk of severe illness is significantly higher if you are not vaccinated, irregardless of a previous covid infection.

And the risk of negative vaccine side effects are also significantly less then the risks associated with catching covid, irregardless of a previous covid infection.

And unless you're locking yourself in your basement and never leaving your house you will eventually catch covid. That's how this #### works.





Its that ####ing simple. The rest of this discussion is just ignorant talking in circles.

[MoneyGuy]

The problem with seeking an taking a doctor’s recommendation is I’d worry that I’d have one of their docs opposing vaccinations. I’d ask first for the doc’s opinion on vaccinations.

[undercoverbrother]

Now that some studies, flawed or not, have come out saying that natural immunity is strong it has made me question whether getting vaccinated is necessary or worth the potential (albeit) small risks.

Wait so you acknowledge the studies maybe "flawed" but you still hang your hat on them.


wow

[Roughneck]

I’ve topped up my meteor insurance

I have an umbrella I use to deter meteors. As long as I’ve carried it, I have never been hit by a meteor.

I’d be willing to sell it to you for the right price.

[Darkknight]

What is it that makes you hesitant?



Is it the stroke risks? Those have been explained to be worse with covid.
Is it that you think you are protected? Protection is better with a vaccine.


What, specifically, is the hesitancy? Have you make a pluses and minuses list of getting or not getting it? It's tough for us to understand, because the logic of your situation makes it impossible to select your postilion. Plus most of us are kinda pissed off right now, if you haven't noticed...

I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.

[Fuzz]

I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.
First off, it's really weird your doctor recommended waiting 6 months. The typical recommendation is after your infection is cleared:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

Unless your doctor has some specific concerns related to your health, he appears to be wrong on that, so I wouldn't delay.

As to the long term effects, well covid itself has those, which should be concerning. Getting re-infected could still subject you to those. But in general, there is no mechanism by which the vaccine works where you would expect any, and most experts and analysis don't expect to see any:

https://immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questions/are-there-long-term-side-effects-caused-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-how-do-we-know

It's a fear that is unfounded in reality. I get it, but it's something you just have to accept as true. I mane, you could be fearful of the vaccine causing you to grow a third arm, but if you are honest with yourself, it's not a reasonable fear.

[Wastedyouth]

I gotta give props to DK for sticking it out.

He is at least open to the conversation.

[PepsiFree]

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.

The problem is that you're basing your decision not to get the vaccine off of the same value of information that suggests you should get the vaccine, and calling it insufficient. Let's take the below as an example:

So why have we not been vaccinated? Well recent studies have shown that natural immunity is everybody as good if not better than the vaccines. I do understand that these are early studies, but everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses would indicate that natural immunity is likely.

We've also had three close contacts who have had strokes since being vaccinated. While it is entirely possible that it is merely a coincidence, there are reports of side effects from the vaccines. So why would I risk potential serious side effects for a medical procedure, that after having the virus already, seems unnecessary?

Early studies and hundreds of millions of doses of vaccine put into arms suggest there are no major side effects that occur with any regularity. That much we know. And, like everything we know about immunity since we've been studying viruses, everything we know about side effects since we've been studying vaccines tells us the emergence of long-term side effects 1 year+ is basically non-existent.

So if that information is good enough for you in terms of natural immunity, why isn't it good enough for a vaccine? Especially considering the recommendations even with the information we have about natural immunity is to get vaccinated even if you've had COVID?

You recognize how selective and narrow your reasoning is, right? And if you do, shouldn't that make you question just how reasonable you're being? You're ignoring the recommendations of the majority of the medical and science community and ignoring what we historically know about vaccines and everything we know thus far about these vaccines, in favour of a select portion of information from one study. That doesn't seem somewhat insane to you, as a reasonable and logical person?

You asked why you would risk potential serious side effects from a medical procedure that seems unnecessary. It's fair to ask why you would risk potentially far greater side effects from contracting a disease, when that risk is much higher even with natural immunity?

Based on the study you provided (flaws and all, but lets say that study is truly representative, though we know it's likely overly favourable to non-vaccinated but infected individuals), your chance of ending up in the hospital as a non-vaccinated, COVID immune person is roughly 1/8,100. Your chance of ending up in the hospital from a COVID vaccine is roughly 1/13,500 (again, also simply based on self reporting and not cases confirmed to vaccine related). And of course, getting the vaccine would reduce your chances even more.

So why are you taking the bigger risk?

[Scroopy Noopers]

DK doesn’t think they are part of the problem… but I disagree for one specific reason. Discussing the “3 strokes” you know in any context of the vaccine is exactly part of the problem. Just floating it out there, as if it has any basis. I assume you’ve told people this in person too. This exact type of thing is why some people are vaccine hesitant. Maybe not your story specifically, but people doing that. Enlarged testicles, multiple instances of stroke, magnetization … Over and over. It’s not acceptable in my opinion. It’s about the only thing they posted that ticked me off.

[cgy-sk-import]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go get vaccinated.

[undercoverbrother]

He is at least open to the conversation.

Is he?

I guess I read his posts in a different tone.

[firebug]

I can absolutely understand the frustration that you and many others, myself included are feeling with the current situation.

I can also understand the frustration at an individual like myself, as has been pointed out; I'm likely not part of the problem but I'm also not part of the solution which is something that I regret.

To answer your question my main concern, and this does branch off the stroke discussion, is the fact that there is no way to tell if there are long term effects. If I didn't already get infected I would absolutely be getting the vaccine, but that unknown is something I have to weigh. If there is a study that shows unequivocally that there are no long term health risks associated with these specific vaccines I would absolutely love to see that report.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/comments/ppd478/matthew_didnt_get_vaxxed_the_comments_that/

Matthew got covid a 2nd time...
Matthew's mother and grandmother caught covid from Matthew...
Matthew is really sick and feels like a fool for not getting vaccinated...
Matthew feels horrible he exposed his loved ones...
Matthew's mother and grandmother were vaccinated... and are now symptom free...
Matthew is still sick and feeling like a fool.

Don't end up like Matthew!

[Darkknight]

First off, it's really weird your doctor recommended waiting 6 months. The typical recommendation is after your infection is cleared:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

Unless your doctor has some specific concerns related to your health, he appears to be wrong on that, so I wouldn't delay.

As to the long term effects, well covid itself has those, which should be concerning. Getting re-infected could still subject you to those. But in general, there is no mechanism by which the vaccine works where you would expect any, and most experts and analysis don't expect to see any:

https://immunizebc.ca/ask-us/questions/are-there-long-term-side-effects-caused-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-how-do-we-know

It's a fear that is unfounded in reality. I get it, but it's something you just have to accept as true. I mane, you could be fearful of the vaccine causing you to grow a third arm, but if you are honest with yourself, it's not a reasonable fear.

Thank you for posting that. When I have a moment tonight I'll go through the link provided.

[opendoor]

Thank you for posting that. When I have a moment tonight I'll go through the link provided.

Just remember, all health interventions are based on risk/benefit; almost nothing is risk-free, but that risk should be weighed against the benefit. Will your benefit of being vaccinated be the same as someone who never had COVID? No, not even close. However, the risk of serious complications from being vaccinated is so minimal, that even in the face of what you might see as a relatively marginal benefit, it's a no brainer, which is why every health authority recommends still getting vaccinated after recovering. This isn't like measles or something, where if you get it you're immune for life and we have mountains of evidence about the longevity of immunity. In that situation, getting vaccinated after infection might not make sense. But that's not the case with COVID.

And in terms of vaccine/immunity passports, keep in mind that a lot of places that accept a recovery in lieu of vaccination have a time limit of 6 months on that. So even if that was policy in Alberta/Canada, if you were infected in April you'd already be getting close to the end of that and would still need to be vaccinated to be exempt from restrictions.