The Deal With Geoff Ward

[GranteedEV]

You know, it would be a great story if Ward was the man to right the ship and take this team further than expectations. A guy who's been an assistant coach in the NHL for over a decade finally getting his shot in the driver's seat and bringing a group of so-called underperformers together as more than a sum of their pieces. It would be a charming plot.

Is it?

I'm going to preface this with this - Ward isn't the entire coaching staff. Others on the staff - Ryan Huska, Ray Edwards, and Martin Gelinas shouldn't escape this criticism as the four of them are a team. But since Ward has the final say in decisions, he should still take the brunt of the criticism.

Isn't Ward a solution for the Calgary Flames now that he's built a decent body of work to evaluate? I mean, at 18 - 11 - 2 he's basically got this team playing 100 point hockey ... right? And the team's struggles are a result of their own indifference as players... right?

In my opinion - No. That record is essentially so despite Geoff Ward. And while a thorough autopsy of Peters' coaching early on may be needed to make that claim, that's a variable I am electing not to discuss in this post. I'll generalize it to the following though - the Peters wasn't the same coach from the 2019 ASB onwards that he was prior to then, and this year was subpar himself and despite that his record was also a function of shooting percentages bottoming out. But overall Peters stopped being a solution before the beginning of the season.

Anyways - Wards makes a lot of errors. I'm not talking about those rookie mistakes that a budding coach will grow out of. I am talking about deliberate errors on a fundamental level that are causing his impact to be a net negative. What are they?

Veteran Favouritism
Do you remember when Bob Hartley posted "Always Earned, Never Given" on the walls of the locker room? Yeah, it was a bit of a cheesy motto for a team, but there was one thing about it that worked. The fact that Hartley followed through with it. He rewarded players who earned more opportunity. And he was unafraid to butt heads with those whom the game was passing by. He saw the potential and work ethic in then-kids like Paul Byron, Michael Ferland, and Josh Jooris and contrasted that with established veteran players like Matt Stajan, Dennis Wideman, and Curtis Glencross.

Ward does no such thing. Whether it's Milan Lucic dogging it, Travis Hamonic overplayed in the top 4, Mark Giordano getting exhausted on the powerplay, Michael Stone being overwhelmed, or Mikael Backlund looking lost on right wing - he operates on the base assumption that experience indicates performance. Veterans are given every opportunity to work through stretches of subpar play at the expense of the team, while younger players like Sam Bennett, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, Andrew Mangiapane, and Dillon Dube were playing well in limited roles. Those roles remained limited even as those veterans were costing the team wins in a league that's built around speed through the middle and short shifts. Yes, Lucic did eventually turn it around - credit to him - but that was after the media called him out to such an extent where he needed to elevate his play to remain prideful. It should have never gotten to that point given the opportunity Lucic was given.

On this team, it is Always Given, Never Earned. There is a fear of inexperience or a fear of the unknown that causes the "Devil You Know" to impact us negatively in the standings.

Inability to read the flow of the game and adjust accordingly
Anyone remember that game about a week or two ago tied after the first period with some new look lines, but the Flames were dominating and Ward randomly busted out the blender and we lost? It was a personification of his poor feel for what a game is calling for. He suffers a lot of these similarities with our old pal Glen Gulutzan, although I'd wager he's got a more talented group that the lack of proper adjustments in-game are not magnified so much. But still - a coach needs to know who's going in a game, who's struggling, what strategies are working, what strategies are struggling - and tweak. It's what got guys like Sullivan and Quennville all the way to the promised land. Bill Peters possessed this ability although he stopped going to it as often after the 2019 All Star Break. Bob Hartley possessed this ability and it was primarily what allowed us to come back in Game 6 down multiple goals to take that series at home. It's a coach imposing his will on the game. Double shifting a guy who's really going. Mixing up the lines when there's something missing. Keeping lines rogether when the only thing missing is finish. Getting a guy with two goals a few extra minutes in special teams to get a hat trick. Shortening the bench when down a goal. All these little things... Geoff Ward either doesn't have the feel for them, or is philosophically opposed to them. And it costs the team more than points in the standing. It costs them in morale.

Inability to evaluate, then make sensible and timely adjustments
As an extension of the in-game adjustments, Ward doesn't implement out-of-game adjustments very well. Brodie has been our best defenseman on the right side and yet got moved to the left while barely logging 20 a night (when he's shown to be capavle of 25+). Hanifin-Hamonic as a defense pair were not working for so long, and nothing was done about it (to the point where by January, Hamonic had the worst expected goals on the team by dar) until an injury forced his hand. Backlund as a right winger wasn't working in any way whatsoever given his skillset and this was only adjusted when the player went into the coach's office and stated the obvious. Jankowksi, after being profoundly snakebitten all season, finally breaks the dam and scores a goal and is benched the very next game. Giordano wasn't doing well on the powerplay. Kylington is proving game-by-game that he can do so much more than Stone every single shift. Bennett's probably been our best and most consistent player since the all star break and there's very little doubt that his usage will continue to suffer until he loses his confidence yet again, instead of being harnessed. There's a stubbornness to stick with things that aren't working far beyond their expiration date that not only affects this team in the regular season, but bodes poorly for the playoffs when game-by-game adjustments are needed to take control of a series - the same issue Bill Peters ran into.

Poor line change strategy
Whether it's "Chip & Change" or "D to D", this has to be the worst team in the league with respect to offensive zone line changes. This team has lines capable of hemming opponents into the offensive zone but there is no wave of one-by-one line changes that are the staple of true puck possession teams. Instead players take long offensive zone shifts deep in the zone and the moment there is a turnover are exhausted and cannot backcheck properly. One-by-one line changes is something you have to practice and preach for it to begin to manifest. Our line changes are the opposite, dump the puck in to the other team, and let them begin their rush by the time the next line is onto the ice. It doesn't work. It breaks the defensive structure, it reduces offensive zone time... and it reduces actual goal scoring out of the cycle.

Poor neutral zone strategy
You know what Glen Gulutzan actually was good at? His teams were pretty suffocating in terms of positioning and gap control. Getting past them was no easy task. I'm not sure what Ward's strategy in the neutral zone is because from what I have seen - there is none. This is one third of the game we might be the worst team in the NHL at. I don't know the numbers but I find it difficult to believe the players simply aren't executing - even when they win 6-2 there isn't much by ways of neutral zone suffocation.

Poor zone entry strategy
I'm mostly talking 5 on 5 here, but I'm sure there could be a breakdown of powerplay entries that doesn't do the coach too well. But 5 on 5 our entries are too often performed by wingers who are outnumbered and they dump the puck in. Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk.. these guys enter and then just throw the puck away. There is no speed to attack the opponent because they are usually pinched in along the boards.Our forecheck is too often our only option to take control of the puck in the offensive zone, and usually it's late because the team was performing a line change. This team isn't the worst at forechecking, but they're not the best either. The team doesn't carry the puck in enough. They've shown to be an elite possession team when they carry the puck, and their puck possession has fallen to average-at-best since they became a dump and chase team. It is insanity.

In my opinion, unless the goal is to tank, Geoff Ward must be replaced by a strong head coach ASAP.
His record is a mirage.

[dissentowner]

You know, it would be a great story if Ward was the man to right the ship and take this team further than expectations. A guy who's been an assistant coach in the NHL for over a decade finally getting his shot in the driver's seat and bringing a group of so-called underperformers together as more than a sum of their pieces. It would be a charming plot.

Is it?

I'm going to preface this with this - Ward isn't the entire coaching staff. Others on the staff - Ryan Huska, Ray Edwards, and Martin Gelinas shouldn't escape this criticism as the four of them are a team. But since Ward has the final say in decisions, he should still take the brunt of the criticism.

Isn't Ward a solution for the Calgary Flames now that he's built a decent body of work to evaluate? I mean, at 18 - 11 - 2 he's basically got this team playing 100 point hockey ... right? And the team's struggles are a result of their own indifference as players... right?

In my opinion - No. That record is essentially so despite Geoff Ward. And while a thorough autopsy of Peters' coaching early on may be needed to make that claim, that's a variable I am electing not to discuss in this post. I'll generalize it to the following though - the Peters wasn't the same coach from the 2019 ASB onwards that he was prior to then, and this year was subpar himself and despite that his record was also a function of shooting percentages bottoming out. But overall Peters stopped being a solution before the beginning of the season.

Anyways - Wards makes a lot of errors. I'm not talking about those rookie mistakes that a budding coach will grow out of. I am talking about deliberate errors on a fundamental level that are causing his impact to be a net negative. What are they?

Veteran Favouritism
Do you remember when Bob Hartley posted "Always Earned, Never Given" on the walls of the locker room? Yeah, it was a bit of a cheesy motto for a team, but there was one thing about it that worked. The fact that Hartley followed through with it. He rewarded players who earned more opportunity. And he was unafraid to butt heads with those whom the game was passing by. He saw the potential and work ethic in then-kids like Paul Byron, Michael Ferland, and Josh Jooris and contrasted that with established veteran players like Matt Stajan, Dennis Wideman, and Curtis Glencross.

Ward does no such thing. Whether it's Milan Lucic dogging it, Travis Hamonic overplayed in the top 4, Mark Giordano getting exhausted on the powerplay, Michael Stone being overwhelmed, or Mikael Backlund looking lost on right wing - he operates on the base assumption that experience indicates performance. Veterans are given every opportunity to work through stretches of subpar play at the expense of the team, while younger players like Sam Bennett, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, Andrew Mangiapane, and Dillon Dube were playing well in limited roles. Those roles remained limited even as those veterans were costing the team wins in a league that's built around speed through the middle and short shifts. Yes, Lucic did eventually turn it around - credit to him - but that was after the media called him out to such an extent where he needed to elevate his play to remain prideful. It should have never gotten to that point given the opportunity Lucic was given.

On this team, it is Always Given, Never Earned. There is a fear of inexperience or a fear of the unknown that causes the "Devil You Know" to impact us negatively in the standings.

Inability to read the flow of the game and adjust accordingly
Anyone remember that game about a week or two ago tied after the first period with some new look lines, but the Flames were dominating and Ward randomly busted out the blender and we lost? It was a personification of his poor feel for what a game is calling for. He suffers a lot of these similarities with our old pal Glen Gulutzan, although I'd wager he's got a more talented group that the lack of proper adjustments in-game are not magnified so much. But still - a coach needs to know who's going in a game, who's struggling, what strategies are working, what strategies are struggling - and tweak. It's what got guys like Sullivan and Quennville all the way to the promised land. Bill Peters possessed this ability although he stopped going to it as often after the 2019 All Star Break. Bob Hartley possessed this ability and it was primarily what allowed us to come back in Game 6 down multiple goals to take that series at home. It's a coach imposing his will on the game. Double shifting a guy who's really going. Mixing up the lines when there's something missing. Keeping lines rogether when the only thing missing is finish. Getting a guy with two goals a few extra minutes in special teams to get a hat trick. Shortening the bench when down a goal. All these little things... Geoff Ward either doesn't have the feel for them, or is philosophically opposed to them. And it costs the team more than points in the standing. It costs them in morale.

Inability to evaluate, then make sensible and timely adjustments
As an extension of the in-game adjustments, Ward doesn't implement out-of-game adjustments very well. Brodie has been our best defenseman on the right side and yet got moved to the left while barely logging 20 a night (when he's shown to be capavle of 25+). Hanifin-Hamonic as a defense pair were not working for so long, and nothing was done about it (to the point where by January, Hamonic had the worst expected goals on the team by dar) until an injury forced his hand. Backlund as a right winger wasn't working in any way whatsoever given his skillset and this was only adjusted when the player went into the coach's office and stated the obvious. Jankowksi, after being profoundly snakebitten all season, finally breaks the dam and scores a goal and is benched the very next game. Giordano wasn't doing well on the powerplay. Kylington is proving game-by-game that he can do so much more than Stone every single shift. Bennett's probably been our best and most consistent player since the all star break and there's very little doubt that his usage will continue to suffer until he loses his confidence yet again, instead of being harnessed. There's a stubbornness to stick with things that aren't working far beyond their expiration date that not only affects this team in the regular season, but bodes poorly for the playoffs when game-by-game adjustments are needed to take control of a series - the same issue Bill Peters ran into.

Poor line change strategy
Whether it's "Chip & Change" or "D to D", this has to be the worst team in the league with respect to offensive zone line changes. This team has lines capable of hemming opponents into the offensive zone but there is no wave of one-by-one line changes that are the staple of true puck possession teams. Instead players take long offensive zone shifts deep in the zone and the moment there is a turnover are exhausted and cannot backcheck properly. One-by-one line changes is something you have to practice and preach for it to begin to manifest. Our line changes are the opposite, dump the puck in to the other team, and let them begin their rush by the time the next line is onto the ice. It doesn't work. It breaks the defensive structure, it reduces offensive zone time... and it reduces actual goal scoring out of the cycle.

Poor neutral zone strategy
You know what Glen Gulutzan actually was good at? His teams were pretty suffocating in terms of positioning and gap control. Getting past them was no easy task. I'm not sure what Ward's strategy in the neutral zone is because from what I have seen - there is none. This is one third of the game we might be the worst team in the NHL at. I don't know the numbers but I find it difficult to believe the players simply aren't executing - even when they win 6-2 there isn't much by ways of neutral zone suffocation.

Poor zone entry strategy
I'm mostly talking 5 on 5 here, but I'm sure there could be a breakdown of powerplay entries that doesn't do the coach too well. But 5 on 5 our entries are too often performed by wingers who are outnumbered and they dump the puck in. Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk.. these guys enter and then just throw the puck away. There is no speed to attack the opponent because they are usually pinched in along the boards.Our forecheck is too often our only option to take control of the puck in the offensive zone, and usually it's late because the team was performing a line change. This team isn't the worst at forechecking, but they're not the best either. The team doesn't carry the puck in enough. They've shown to be an elite possession team when they carry the puck, and their puck possession has fallen to average-at-best since they became a dump and chase team. It is insanity.

In my opinion, unless the goal is to tank, Geoff Ward must be replaced by a strong head coach ASAP.
His record is a mirage.

We have not agreed on much in the past but you really nailed it here. Excellent post.

[getoverit]

Geoff chip n chase Ward. he could learn what a time out is. yep hard to argue

[Tyler]

The truth of the matter is that this organization refuses to pay for top-tier coaching.

[Jiggy]

The truth of the matter is that this organization refuses to pay for top-tier coaching.


That's not true, and I don't know where this comes from. Brent Sutter was one of the highest paid coaches when he was in Calgary. Bob Hartley at the time was probably top 10 in the league in $ for coaches.

[JurassicTunga12]

The truth of the matter is that this organization refuses to pay for top-tier coaching.

If that is true, then they should expect nothing more than mediocre results when they keep hiring coaches from the dollar store.

and that's exactly what we've been getting for years.

[zamler]

The truth of the matter is that this organization refuses to pay for top-tier coaching.

Either the organization is monumentally stupid or top tier coaches don't want to be here.

[GioforPM]

The amount of money coaches make is pretty hit and miss when it comes to success. In fact the biggest salaries have often been guys who were successful but aren’t any more.

[Tyler]

That's not true, and I don't know where this comes from. Brent Sutter was one of the highest paid coaches when he was in Calgary. Bob Hartley at the time was probably top 10 in the league in $ for coaches.

Bob Hartley had been out of the NHL for like 5 years. Top 10 in the league? Doubtful.

[Fire]

Peters was making quite a bit as well. I don't they are afraid to spend money on a coach.

[Jiggy]

Bob Hartley had been out of the NHL for like 5 years. Top 10 in the league? Doubtful.


He was still an experienced head coach who won a Stanley Cup.

[Joborule]

Poor zone entry strategy
I'm mostly talking 5 on 5 here, but I'm sure there could be a breakdown of powerplay entries that doesn't do the coach too well. But 5 on 5 our entries are too often performed by wingers who are outnumbered and they dump the puck in. Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk.. these guys enter and then just throw the puck away. There is no speed to attack the opponent because they are usually pinched in along the boards.Our forecheck is too often our only option to take control of the puck in the offensive zone, and usually it's late because the team was performing a line change. This team isn't the worst at forechecking, but they're not the best either. The team doesn't carry the puck in enough. They've shown to be an elite possession team when they carry the puck, and their puck possession has fallen to average-at-best since they became a dump and chase team. It is insanity.
So I don't understand in the year 2020, with how fast and skilled hockey is now, why dump-and-chase is still a thing. Dump and chase is no longer effect, and is just the hockey version of punting the puck. It should only be utilized when you have a healthy lead, and focused on clogging up the neutral zone, and don't want to risk turnovers there. But even still, puck possession is your best defense, and you would be better trying to enter the zone, and get the puck down low or on net if you can.

Why the Flames do this so often, makes no sense to me whatsoever. They give the puck away, and by the time a forechecker is close to the player that retrieve the puck, the opposing team is already making their rush out of their own zone, and now caught the Flames flat footed, and have a chance at their own odd man rush; or at least simple zone entry.

It's things like this that makes me wonder are professional coaches really that much better than a passionate hockey fan that pays attention to strategies at times.

In my opinion, unless the goal is to tank, Geoff Ward must be replaced by a strong head coach ASAP.
His record is a mirage.

I'm actually surprised his record is that good. I guess though at the time Peter's had to be let go, the team was pretty low in the standings, so it makes sense that they had to pull off a relatively good rate to climb back up. But it goes to show that the team record should honestly be even better.

I do feel that the core of the roster does have its fault that most likely needs to be tinkered in the off season. Gaudreau not being a star impact player this season has hurt the team a lot, and perhaps a symptom of that is the system in place, but his performances in the playoffs; especially the Colorado series, shows that due to his size, he's not the player you can rely on to carry the team when the heat in the kitchen gets turned up.

The team lacks a player that can carry the team like Gaudreau can when he's on, but can also handle the rough physical play, and not be shutdown easily under that environment. Without that, I'm not sure the team is built well enough as it stands currently to be able to go on a playoff run. You need your top line to be productive come April, and if Gaudreau is relied on to be the one to carry it, he's not gonna be able to deliver unless he gets a OS update, and he becomes a lot more physically engaged, courageous, and most importantly, resilient.

But with that said, I do feel that with a good coach brought it, he would be able to get more out of this roster than the past few coaches have been able to. He would utilize players, put them in positions, and have a structure that will yield the best results out of them that's possible. He might even be able to make playoff Gaudreau have impact, and make this core work good enough to at least be a respectable playoff team.

I do feel it's worth it to give a legitimate coach a shot with this roster, before making drastic changes. But if that's not going to happen until the off season, then I feel both trades involving the core, and a new coach should both happen at the same time.

In the meantime, I'm just really hoping that Treliving does not trade any of the early round draft picks or prospects with potential for a older veteran that's just a short term solution attempt.

[socalwingfan]

Could probably go under Favouriteism, but Ward's reluctance to give Talbot a run in the starter's net is really beginning to grind my gears.

[GranteedEV]

Could probably go under Favouriteism, but Ward's reluctance to give Talbot a run in the starter's net is really beginning to grind my gears.

Even ignoring "a run", I don't know how you don't start a guy after he pitches a 40+ save shutout.

[N-E-B]

Though Ward is far from perfect and I wouldn’t be opposed to replacing him, I also believe that Scotty Bowman couldn’t fix this team. I really honestly think it’s as simple as this: the players aren’t good enough. We don’t have a truly elite game breaker. Johnny was that player last year but he isn’t this year. Simple as that. I think it’s a bit unfair and lazy to try blame this on the coaches yet again. It’s the same old story with the same core players.

It’s time to look at a major shakeup to the core. I don’t think the team is that far off but as the team is now they aren’t going anywhere.

As it stands if they make the playoffs their 1st round opponent would likely be one of Vancouver, Edmonton, Vegas, or St. Louis. Vegas and St. Louis would run these guys out of the building in 5 games or less. McDavid would likely pull a MacKinnon and run our show (as we saw last year regular season success against a team means nothing in the playoffs). Vancouver is the only team I feel we could maybe beat, but I don’t think they’d get past the 2nd round if they did.

It’s not time to blow it all up, but it’s definitely time to look at a major retool. I’d look at Gaudreau and as much as it pains me to say it I would look at Giordano too (simply due to his age, I absolutely love the guy and the player, just thinking it might be time for a change in leadership).

[Inglewood Jack]

Again with the “Scotty Bowman couldn’t fix this team”. Well maybe one of these years we should at least try one of those (or somebody even 50% of a Scotty) so that we can know for sure right?

[codynw]

I appreciate what he's done under unprecedented, and generally terrible circumstances this season. However, Ward is, or at least shouldn't be, the future head coach of this team. IMO they should be trying to find his replacement now so they can try to learn the new system and be ready to play for next year. I hear there are some good coaches available.

[GioforPM]

I appreciate what he's done under unprecedented, and generally terrible circumstances this season. However, Ward is, or at least shouldn't be, the future head coach of this team. IMO they should be trying to find his replacement now so they can try to learn the new system and be ready to play for next year. I hear there are some good coaches available.

I hear there are some good coaches not working right now. Available? I dunno.

[N-E-B]

Again with the “Scotty Bowman couldn’t fix this team”. Well maybe one of these years we should at least try one of those (or somebody even 50% of a Scotty) so that we can know for sure right?

I’m not opposed to trying it, I just don’t have much faith that it will work.

[2ArmBands]

Tired of blaming coaching when it comes to this team. All failed coaching is doing to this point is proving that this core is unable to get the job done. Time for a shakeup with the core... bottom line.

[DazzlinDino]

As pointed out in the OP, even a core shakeup won't do much if the coaching issues are not addressed. Personally I think we need a solid coaching hire who knows what to do and what he wants, before we start moving core pieces.

[Jiri Hrdina]

My view is you need both
- A new coach will fail without changes to the roster
- A new roster will fail without the right coach.

I want both.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

My view is you need both
- A new coach will fail without changes to the roster
- A new roster will fail without the right coach.

I want both.

That's where I'm at as well. I really don't like the idea of getting a new coach and giving this roster another chance to see if it works.......I think that would end up being a gigantic waste of time.

There's something rotten with this team as is, and I think this summer will be the time to change the identity of the club. New coach, trade Johnny and Monahan among others and get a consistently hungry hockey team with a new identity. What we have ain't working, and just getting a new coach won't turn this team into a Cup contender, which is kind of the whole point, IMO.

[dissentowner]

My view is you need both
- A new coach will fail without changes to the roster
- A new roster will fail without the right coach.

I want both.

So you are saying last season was just crap luck? It is essentially the same roster. Actually it is a better roster. The current group is fine, the coaching is not.

[Erick Estrada]

My view is you need both
- A new coach will fail without changes to the roster
- A new roster will fail without the right coach.

I want both.

IMO they need to move Gaudreau at the very least and I still think goaltending isn't good enough for a true contender so the search for a franchise goaltender must continue. This next coaching hire will be critical though as Ward has done an admirable job filling in but he's not the answer as this team needs an experienced coach that can work with a core that's on the fragile side.

[zamler]

So you are saying last season was just crap luck? It is essentially the same roster. Actually it is a better roster. The current group is fine, the coaching is not.
This is an easy one for me, do the Flames look like they are trying to play a good system but failing at it, or playing a bad system successfully.

[Infinit47]

Tired of blaming coaching when it comes to this team. All failed coaching is doing to this point is proving that this core is unable to get the job done. Time for a shakeup with the core... bottom line.

Well, Ward interviewed with trelieving when we hired Gulutzen and was not hired. So we now have a head coach who was at that point second (or 3rd or 4th) to Gulutzen, who himself was one of the worst coaches the Flames have ever had. Before that we had Bargain Bin Hartley, and after that we had "we can hire him once he's fired by the Canes" Peters.

There are three successful coaches sitting at home right now. Other than money I don't see what the Flames have to lose by trying one of them out.

If the coach comes in and says this team can't cut it you have an additional outside view of how to retool the team this summer.

[zamler]

We need a legit coach either way regardless of the lineup, there are several excellent coaches sitting at home are we at least trying to land one of them?

[GranteedEV]

Of course you always need to improve the roster. That goes without saying. But when we're talking about this core, we're talking about a team that has been

2014-15 - 6th in goal scoring, 1st in penalty differential
2015-16 - 10th in goal scoring, 5th in penalty differential
2016-17 - 10th in PP%, 12th in PK%
2017-18 - 8th in PK%, 4th in FF% (score adjusted)
2018-19 - 3rd in goal scoring, 9th in goals against despite subpar goaltending, 6th in in FF% (score adjusted), 2nd in penalty differential

These are all things THIS core group has accomplished with different assortments of supporting casts.

Where are we in those categories this year?

20th in goal scoring
24th in goals against
20th in penalty differential
17th in FF% (score adjusted)
12th in PP%
11th in PK%

It's not as simple as "this team quits on coaches". It's not as simple as "this team lacks a GAF". The reality is that this team has done under other coaches things like maintain a positive penalty differential, score goals, dominate puck possession. The team's shown it's able to do those things. The other stuff, for instance finally getting the powerplay reliably into the top 10, is where you might need to look at core changes. Even then, it's not like the PP is what's killing us this year.

This team has established that under a good coach they should

- be a top 5 team in penalty differential
- be a top ten goal scoring team.

That's what they've done in all three complete years under Hartley/Peters. You can leave some leeway for goal scoring considering how random it can be at times, but it's still a testament to the talent level.

They've also established that they're able to:

- be a top ten possession team
- be a competent penalty killing team

Which are things that they showed in the past handful of years

They're not an elite roster but they should at least be able to do things they've shown they're able to do. Puck possession and penalty differentials are two of those things that a coach can instill.

Right now the same core is doing literally nothing that has made them successful outside of special teams. But the special teams success is a sign that the mix isn't all so awful either. The tactics and adjustments just aren't getting the players to maximize their potential.

[Manhattanboy]

Dumb idea but maybe a number of long time season ticket holders like myself need to write the owners demanding changes starting with the hiring of a proven NHL head coach.

[cannon7]

I'll be shocked if Treliving makes a coaching change this season.

[2ArmBands]

Well, Ward interviewed with trelieving when we hired Gulutzen and was not hired. So we now have a head coach who was at that point second (or 3rd or 4th) to Gulutzen, who himself was one of the worst coaches the Flames have ever had. Before that we had Bargain Bin Hartley, and after that we had "we can hire him once he's fired by the Canes" Peters.

There are three successful coaches sitting at home right now. Other than money I don't see what the Flames have to lose by trying one of them out.

If the coach comes in and says this team can't cut it you have an additional outside view of how to retool the team this summer.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for a new coach. Ward has an interim tag for a reason and it’s pretty much inevitable that he will be replaced. However, I have seen enough from this core to know that something is missing. I want change in this regard.

A lot of people look at last year in a positive light. Sure the season they had last year was great but ultimately it ended as a major disappointment. As a long time Flames I’m still bitter about it and hold a fair bit of resentment to some of the top end talent on this team that lack killer instinct and struggle to elevate their game.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

So you are saying last season was just crap luck? It is essentially the same roster. Actually it is a better roster. The current group is fine, the coaching is not.

The roster has show that when on a roll, having zero adversity to overcome, when their confidence is at a peak that they can be a top team.

They have also shown that when they aren’t on a roll, face a little adversity, and lack a little confidence that they play mediocre. They don’t show up to start games, they don’t work hard consistently. A coach can demand hard work, he can try to motivate but at some point the players have to take a share of the blame too.

It’s clearly a combination of both coaching and a fundamental problem with some of the core players. Anyone who thinks it’s only one or the other is being shortsighted imo. Just because the players have the skill required when things are going well doesn’t mean they have the winning attitude and mentality to stick to the coach’s system when things start to go poorly. Sometimes a coach can’t magically turn a bunch of inconsistent players into a hard working team that plays the right way the majority of the time.

Anyone blaming the coaching while absolving the players completely is doing it wrong. That said clearly coaching is an area that could be upgraded as well.

[Red_Baron]

Oilers have a trash roster and a good coach and are winning. We have a much deeper roster and a rookie NHL head coach and we are sinking.


We need a real coach, no more bargain bin shopping. This season sucks to watch.

[Psytic]

Dumb idea but maybe a number of long time season ticket holders like myself need to write the owners demanding changes starting with the hiring of a proven NHL head coach.

Cant hurt.

[Yobbo]

You know, it would be a great story if Ward was the man to right the ship and take this team further than expectations. A guy who's been an assistant coach in the NHL for over a decade finally getting his shot in the driver's seat and bringing a group of so-called underperformers together as more than a sum of their pieces. It would be a charming plot.



Is it?



I'm going to preface this with this - Ward isn't the entire coaching staff. Others on the staff - Ryan Huska, Ray Edwards, and Martin Gelinas shouldn't escape this criticism as the four of them are a team. But since Ward has the final say in decisions, he should still take the brunt of the criticism.



Isn't Ward a solution for the Calgary Flames now that he's built a decent body of work to evaluate? I mean, at 18 - 11 - 2 he's basically got this team playing 100 point hockey ... right? And the team's struggles are a result of their own indifference as players... right?



In my opinion - No. That record is essentially so despite Geoff Ward. And while a thorough autopsy of Peters' coaching early on may be needed to make that claim, that's a variable I am electing not to discuss in this post. I'll generalize it to the following though - the Peters wasn't the same coach from the 2019 ASB onwards that he was prior to then, and this year was subpar himself and despite that his record was also a function of shooting percentages bottoming out. But overall Peters stopped being a solution before the beginning of the season.



Anyways - Wards makes a lot of errors. I'm not talking about those rookie mistakes that a budding coach will grow out of. I am talking about deliberate errors on a fundamental level that are causing his impact to be a net negative. What are they?



Veteran Favouritism

Do you remember when Bob Hartley posted "Always Earned, Never Given" on the walls of the locker room? Yeah, it was a bit of a cheesy motto for a team, but there was one thing about it that worked. The fact that Hartley followed through with it. He rewarded players who earned more opportunity. And he was unafraid to butt heads with those whom the game was passing by. He saw the potential and work ethic in then-kids like Paul Byron, Michael Ferland, and Josh Jooris and contrasted that with established veteran players like Matt Stajan, Dennis Wideman, and Curtis Glencross.



Ward does no such thing. Whether it's Milan Lucic dogging it, Travis Hamonic overplayed in the top 4, Mark Giordano getting exhausted on the powerplay, Michael Stone being overwhelmed, or Mikael Backlund looking lost on right wing - he operates on the base assumption that experience indicates performance. Veterans are given every opportunity to work through stretches of subpar play at the expense of the team, while younger players like Sam Bennett, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, Andrew Mangiapane, and Dillon Dube were playing well in limited roles. Those roles remained limited even as those veterans were costing the team wins in a league that's built around speed through the middle and short shifts. Yes, Lucic did eventually turn it around - credit to him - but that was after the media called him out to such an extent where he needed to elevate his play to remain prideful. It should have never gotten to that point given the opportunity Lucic was given.



On this team, it is Always Given, Never Earned. There is a fear of inexperience or a fear of the unknown that causes the "Devil You Know" to impact us negatively in the standings.



Inability to read the flow of the game and adjust accordingly

Anyone remember that game about a week or two ago tied after the first period with some new look lines, but the Flames were dominating and Ward randomly busted out the blender and we lost? It was a personification of his poor feel for what a game is calling for. He suffers a lot of these similarities with our old pal Glen Gulutzan, although I'd wager he's got a more talented group that the lack of proper adjustments in-game are not magnified so much. But still - a coach needs to know who's going in a game, who's struggling, what strategies are working, what strategies are struggling - and tweak. It's what got guys like Sullivan and Quennville all the way to the promised land. Bill Peters possessed this ability although he stopped going to it as often after the 2019 All Star Break. Bob Hartley possessed this ability and it was primarily what allowed us to come back in Game 6 down multiple goals to take that series at home. It's a coach imposing his will on the game. Double shifting a guy who's really going. Mixing up the lines when there's something missing. Keeping lines rogether when the only thing missing is finish. Getting a guy with two goals a few extra minutes in special teams to get a hat trick. Shortening the bench when down a goal. All these little things... Geoff Ward either doesn't have the feel for them, or is philosophically opposed to them. And it costs the team more than points in the standing. It costs them in morale.



Inability to evaluate, then make sensible and timely adjustments

As an extension of the in-game adjustments, Ward doesn't implement out-of-game adjustments very well. Brodie has been our best defenseman on the right side and yet got moved to the left while barely logging 20 a night (when he's shown to be capavle of 25+). Hanifin-Hamonic as a defense pair were not working for so long, and nothing was done about it (to the point where by January, Hamonic had the worst expected goals on the team by dar) until an injury forced his hand. Backlund as a right winger wasn't working in any way whatsoever given his skillset and this was only adjusted when the player went into the coach's office and stated the obvious. Jankowksi, after being profoundly snakebitten all season, finally breaks the dam and scores a goal and is benched the very next game. Giordano wasn't doing well on the powerplay. Kylington is proving game-by-game that he can do so much more than Stone every single shift. Bennett's probably been our best and most consistent player since the all star break and there's very little doubt that his usage will continue to suffer until he loses his confidence yet again, instead of being harnessed. There's a stubbornness to stick with things that aren't working far beyond their expiration date that not only affects this team in the regular season, but bodes poorly for the playoffs when game-by-game adjustments are needed to take control of a series - the same issue Bill Peters ran into.



Poor line change strategy

Whether it's "Chip & Change" or "D to D", this has to be the worst team in the league with respect to offensive zone line changes. This team has lines capable of hemming opponents into the offensive zone but there is no wave of one-by-one line changes that are the staple of true puck possession teams. Instead players take long offensive zone shifts deep in the zone and the moment there is a turnover are exhausted and cannot backcheck properly. One-by-one line changes is something you have to practice and preach for it to begin to manifest. Our line changes are the opposite, dump the puck in to the other team, and let them begin their rush by the time the next line is onto the ice. It doesn't work. It breaks the defensive structure, it reduces offensive zone time... and it reduces actual goal scoring out of the cycle.



Poor neutral zone strategy

You know what Glen Gulutzan actually was good at? His teams were pretty suffocating in terms of positioning and gap control. Getting past them was no easy task. I'm not sure what Ward's strategy in the neutral zone is because from what I have seen - there is none. This is one third of the game we might be the worst team in the NHL at. I don't know the numbers but I find it difficult to believe the players simply aren't executing - even when they win 6-2 there isn't much by ways of neutral zone suffocation.



Poor zone entry strategy

I'm mostly talking 5 on 5 here, but I'm sure there could be a breakdown of powerplay entries that doesn't do the coach too well. But 5 on 5 our entries are too often performed by wingers who are outnumbered and they dump the puck in. Mangiapane, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk.. these guys enter and then just throw the puck away. There is no speed to attack the opponent because they are usually pinched in along the boards.Our forecheck is too often our only option to take control of the puck in the offensive zone, and usually it's late because the team was performing a line change. This team isn't the worst at forechecking, but they're not the best either. The team doesn't carry the puck in enough. They've shown to be an elite possession team when they carry the puck, and their puck possession has fallen to average-at-best since they became a dump and chase team. It is insanity.



In my opinion, unless the goal is to tank, Geoff Ward must be replaced by a strong head coach ASAP.

His record is a mirage.Great post! Very impressive, and in-depth. Thanks for sharing!

[CSharp]

I can summarized this team with one conjunction:

This team is a coach killer and a goalie killer.

[Manhattanboy]

I can summarized this team with one conjunction:

This team is a coach killer and a goalie killer.

And a fan killer. Sigh.

[Elkyiv]

That's not true, and I don't know where this comes from. Brent Sutter was one of the highest paid coaches when he was in Calgary. Bob Hartley at the time was probably top 10 in the league in $ for coaches.

A great indication that it is true is the fact that none of the ex-Flames coaches have head coaching jobs in the NHL today.

The last coach to have a job after leaving the team is Sutter and that was .. 14 years ago.

[DropIt]

Ward probably isnt the answer. This team needs a much more experienced coach.

That being said, the coach blame needs to stop. Start putting the weight in the shoulders of our top players and it's easy to see the Monahan and Gaudreau just csnt carry teams, and if Gio is declined ing he seems to be taking the team down with him.

[NewFan]

My main problem with this coach is I didn't see any improvement the team's game except some line mixing. He's lines don't have identity. All lines try to play same plan dump and chase, so our 1st line is failed.
Our D gives other team all the space and time very easy. They allow other team enter the zone easily ant try to keep outside but our D not big that can break other teams circling.
May be it is good to listen the players and accept their opinion, but for me it means he doesn't have his system, or can't implement best system for this players and make players to trust the system and follow him.

[Inglewood Jack]

Bumping in hopes that the Ward discussion spread out over 5 different threads can be consolidated. It’s remarkable actually how relevant the OP’s breakdown is a year later. All the points from veteran favouritism to bad line matching and transitions are things everyone has been analyzing in great detail this past week.

[The Boy Wonder]

Bumping in hopes that the Ward discussion spread out over 5 different threads can be consolidated. It’s remarkable actually how relevant the OP’s breakdown is a year later. All the points from veteran favouritism to bad line matching and transitions are things everyone has been analyzing in great detail this past week.

Line matching issues, poor systems / transitions etc. have been themes around the flames going back a long while.

[Infinit47]

Line matching issues, poor systems / transitions etc. have been themes around the flames going back a long while.

Its as if refusing to spend the required money on a coach has had the same predictable results, over and over again.

[868904]

Darryl said he'd come back and coach the Alberta teams, Tre is just too insecure to bring him back.

[genetic_phreek]

I read this post thinking it was current and not realizing it was bumped, yet it is almost a year old, and still on point.

[FiveSeven]

It's like they think coaching has minimal impact. The style of thinking that leads you to say things like. "Oh I could coach the Lightning and they would still win because of their talent".
Ignoring the fact that in every single sport in existence that there is a clear demonstrable difference between low and high tier coaching and their impact on the outcome of the team.

Just because I could coach the lightning to be successful doesn't mean someone else couldn't do a 10x better job.

I don't think the Flames are nearly as bad as are being said to be recently. I truly believe they're a great team. If they had better coaching it would obviously breed better results which breeds confidence which breeds wins and better play and more willingness to compete harder or go out on the limb because the results of doing so are based in truth not in hope.

I was willing to give Ward a shot and I still have completely lost hope yet either, but my god. Enough of the bargain bin bull#### or trying to find the new and upcoming coach.

[N-E-B]

Talking about firing coaches every year is getting old. I don’t think Ward is outstanding but at this point I think it’s just lazy to argue that he’s the reason they’re failing.

How about the fact that Bennett, Leivo, Nordstrom, and Simon (so 25% of our forwards assuming 3 of them play every night) have combined for a whopping 2 points this season? Even Lucic has 3 points. Or what about the cliff that Gio and Backlund decided to jump off this year?

Bottom line for me is that while the coach might not be great it still comes down to the players, and I think this year the depth players have failed miserably. None of the new forwards have contributed anything even remotely positive to the team.

So if the players aren’t good enough who do you look at? The players, obviously, but I think you put Treliving on the hot seat before Ward. It might be time to consider that Treliving has taken the team as far as he can. A fresh set of eyes may be beneficial. And I say this as someone who likes Treliving and overall would consider his body of work to be good.

[Flame On]

The coach was an interim coach for the longest time, but he seems to just have morphed into the defacto coach. I don't know why it's now so unreasonable to question the coach which even management questioned by the fact he was interim for so long.
If you look at patterns, its pretty easy to make the case that long term responsible players like Backlund are regressing in their play, players are lethargic and now there's players wanting out of the dressing room.

His abilities are not mutually exclusive of needing roster shake-ups with the core. The team needs an identity or at least something to build around. They aren't particularly big, fast, skilled, gritty, or any other adjective.

I find it funny that the one person people come up with is Johnny. Drives me crazy. Fine get rid of him, but don't think that Sean is going to suddenly gel with other players or stop being soft as ice-cream and giving the puck away. All Johnny will do is put the spotlight on the incredible lack of skill there is on the roster, which I guess in a way is a good thing if we're talking retooling.

[SportsJunky]

Sorry, I didn't read all that. I skimmed though and I didn't see anything about contracts that Calgary is already paying out. Aren't they still paying Peters? Plus, Ward is signed for what, 2 years?
I don't see a coaching change happening. Do they want to pay 3 coaching contracts at the same time?

* ####, I just noticed it's an old thread bump.

[P-DAZZLE]

Bumping in hopes that the Ward discussion spread out over 5 different threads can be consolidated. It’s remarkable actually how relevant the OP’s breakdown is a year later. All the points from veteran favouritism to bad line matching and transitions are things everyone has been analyzing in great detail this past week.

I read the OP not realizing it was a year old. The numbers seemed off and yet nothing else did. Good, scary, bump.

[GioforPM]

Its as if refusing to spend the required money on a coach has had the same predictable results, over and over again.

The examples of spending a lot on a coach and having a big impact are few and far between. Look at Babcock, McLellan, Julien, Quenneville, DeBoer... And then look at coaches like Cooper or Sullivan who do well without being paid a lot.

I think few coaches are good enough that they make an impact on a team that's otherwise mediocre. Hell, even Trotz is not doing well with the Isles.

I don't think Ward is a great coach or anything, nor were any other Treliving hires. Or any coaches hired by Sutter or Feaster. I am not convinced it's because of a lack of money, though.

[SuperMatt18]

Great post and great thread.

Is this roster perfect? No it isn't, and improvements can me made to help the coach but it's clear that the coach is not the solution.

Doesn't matter how good the roster is when the coach utilizes them as poorly as Ward does.

Honestly Nordstrom on the top line at any point should be a fireable offence.

[Textcritic]

...I don't think Ward is a great coach or anything, nor were any other Treliving hires. Or any coaches hired by Sutter or Feaster. I am not convinced it's because of a lack of money, though.
This is where I am at, but I am also not convinced that a better, or more expensive coach is going to yield significantly better results. So much of what I see going wrong in the games has to do with a lot of really poor decision making by the players from one moment to the next. It is not an especially mentally-strong group; they seem to get very easily flustered and thrown off their game.

The powerplay is a prime example of this right now: It was lights-out to start the season, and featured a bunch of really creative and effective new looks. For the last few games it has looked awful. So, we know that the coaches can put together a dynamic powerplay and the players can execute it. Right now it looks like they are overthinking everything.

[liamenator]

It's absolutely wild that Treliving used his last remaining bullet on Geoff Ward.

[Red]

I dont like the system he is implementing. But I am pretty sure the players arent executing it right either. So who knows, maybe it's a good system.

As for the person himself, Ward just doesn't have that "leader" presence. He seems shy and bit awkward socially. Not a great speaker. No track record to lean on either. When you compare him to our other coaches, he just seems so mellow. Too mellow.
Bill Peters was a leader. In retrospect an ahole and all, but a good leader. He was very confident, enthusiastic and energetic. When he spoke, you listened. Quite frankly, he was a great guy to listen to.
Gulutzan is a great speaker too, but came off overconfident. His track record suggested that he was spewing BS. Players probably didnt respect him for that. He had that "smartest guy in the room" vibe, but with nothing to back it up. A good interview to be sure.

Sutter was a presence. Players respected him and were afraid of him. A guy that talked the talk and walked the walk. NHL experience is important. He knows what his players are going through day to day.

The closest comparison to Ward is Don Hay A quiet guy that had a short stint here. Just didnt seem like a guy that could make millionaires work hard.

[Mathgod]

I look at the '12 Kings, the '16 Pens, and the '19 Blues, and think why can't something similar happen here?

Heck, even look at the struggling '96 Sabres (a team that had an elite goalie, just like we do now) who were turned around by Ted Nolan the following year. He is available...

[kyuss275]

The deal with Ward is he is coach of this team if he succeeds or Tre is fired. I like Tre a lot, but I think it’s going to be the latter.

[transplant99]

The man has been head coach in the NHL for a grand total of 52 regular season hockey games.

52.

Im not sold he is the guy that should be here, but i do know that there is simply far to little data to know, for sure, one way or the other. Particularly when we know that the majority of the core of this roster has been constant throughout 3 head coaches now. 4 to a lesser extent.

Niether one of his seasons have been any where near to "normal" of his tenure either. He took over under difficult circumstances and with COVID they have continued.

I think he should at least be given a chance, even if the early returns aren't as promising as one would hope. Every good, and bad, coach has had poor streaks in their careers.

Patience is a virtue sometimes, and since nothing will change as far as coaching and management until at least the "summer"....may as well see if it gets better or not before going off the deep end.

[Red]

The examples of spending a lot on a coach and having a big impact are few and far between. Look at Babcock, McLellan, Julien, Quenneville, DeBoer... And then look at coaches like Cooper or Sullivan who do well without being paid a lot.

I think few coaches are good enough that they make an impact on a team that's otherwise mediocre. Hell, even Trotz is not doing well with the Isles.

I don't think Ward is a great coach or anything, nor were any other Treliving hires. Or any coaches hired by Sutter or Feaster. I am not convinced it's because of a lack of money, though.

Every good coach has to start somewhere. Thus the Sullivans and Coopers. But a lot of those new coaches will not amount to much.

And since you brought up some newer coaches that did well, Travis Green is the next one in line IMO. Nuckleheads want him fired, but really, he had that team play excellent hockey in the last few years. A team that was lacking talent. I think he had them overachieve.

Would love to see Green here.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Though Ward is far from perfect and I wouldn’t be opposed to replacing him, I also believe that Scotty Bowman couldn’t fix this team. I really honestly think it’s as simple as this: the players aren’t good enough. We don’t have a truly elite game breaker. Johnny was that player last year but he isn’t this year. Simple as that. I think it’s a bit unfair and lazy to try blame this on the coaches yet again. It’s the same old story with the same core players.

It’s time to look at a major shakeup to the core. I don’t think the team is that far off but as the team is now they aren’t going anywhere.

As it stands if they make the playoffs their 1st round opponent would likely be one of Vancouver, Edmonton, Vegas, or St. Louis. Vegas and St. Louis would run these guys out of the building in 5 games or less. McDavid would likely pull a MacKinnon and run our show (as we saw last year regular season success against a team means nothing in the playoffs). Vancouver is the only team I feel we could maybe beat, but I don’t think they’d get past the 2nd round if they did.

It’s not time to blow it all up, but it’s definitely time to look at a major retool. I’d look at Gaudreau and as much as it pains me to say it I would look at Giordano too (simply due to his age, I absolutely love the guy and the player, just thinking it might be time for a change in leadership).

Who is true elite game breaker on Vegas, Dallas or St. Louis? I think people think if you tank hard enough you get one of these. I think it's actually rare to find these players and blowing it up doesn't ensure one.

Calgary was second in the league not too long ago. I don't think you fluke into that but the playoffs are different but the team has shown growth and they have made some lineup changes that will pay off (I think this is a playoff team).

They are inconsistent right now and everyone is upset and everyone is an expert with all the answers including me, second guessing everything. It ain't that easy. The players don't all of the sudden suck. We as fans always over react. I understand this is unpopular.

Consistency in execution and mental fortitude is slightly lacking. It may be people caring too much that they press instead of a less is more approach. I do think some deployment tactics need to be changed so I think it's fair to be a little critical but I don't think it's as bad as we are all are projecting the day after a loss.

I think the players will come around and find a way to be consistent. They aren't dummies they know more than anyone when it's not going well and we've seen stellar play from them. I think the overly negative stuff from fans doesn't help but people are obviously free to think what they want (I do it too because I'm emotionally invested, perhaps too much, to the team). I really like our players and know how good they are - good enough to beat anyone. They just need to play the right way within the team structure and buy in completely. Clean up the recurring mistakes and play together and play fast.

[corporatejay]

the bottom six on this team is pretty brutal. lots of pressure on the top two lines to produce, and when they don't, this team is going to struggle.

I am in no way pinning this on Bennett, but when you completely miss on a #4 overall pick, you're going to be in trouble, those opportunities can't be wasted.

[indes]

I'm confused by our line up decisions, I'm not an NHL coach but I don't see all the other teams lining up to split up their scoring talent across 3 lines.

Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube
2 - way line? - Tkachuk is a top 3 offensive player on our team, Lindholm at C and Dube are not.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Scorers + Anchor? Why? Simon doesn't help either of these players. Everyone keeps saying these guys need someone to go dig out pucks for them. They need someone who can read the play and help on the rush, Hudler style.

Mangi - Backlund - Leivo
Fast defensive line?

Mangi has some offensive chops, wasted with Backlund and Leivo

Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom
Mediocre two way C + anchors.

We have our top 6 players spread across 3 lines instead of 2.

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/tampa-bay-lightning/line-combinations/

Tampa, Toronto, Colorado..
All of them have their best talent on their top 2 lines.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Mangi - Backlund - Lindholm
Dube - Bennett - Leivo
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

Or if you really want Lindholm at C

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Mangi - Lindholm - Dube
Bennett - Backlund - Leivo
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

You could swap Monahan and Lindholm if you want but these are lines that all have clear strengths.

Top line has great IQ and positioning.
2nd line has great speed and two way play.
3rd line could be a fantastic shut down line.

4th line is not great.

Anyways it's clear that 5v5 Ward wants to roll 4 lines and hamstring the offense of the top 3 lines.

Combine this with our horrible line matching and refusal to shorten the bench and we are gonna be in for a long frustrating season, where we just can't finish.

[Textcritic]

Every good coach has to start somewhere. Thus the Sullivans and Coopers. But a lot of those new coaches will not amount to much.

And since you brought up some newer coaches that did well, Travis Green is the next one in line IMO. Nuckleheads want him fired, but really, he had that team play excellent hockey in the last few years. A team that was lacking talent. I think he had them overachieve.

Would love to see Green here.
I would be happy with this. Green was targeted by Treliving when the team hired Gulutzan, but the Canucks would not release him from his contract.

[Wolfman]

The deal with Geoff Ward is he sucks

[GranteedEV]

...

Well, I guess I agree with me from a year ago :blink:

Don't even remember making this thread lol

[Ashasx]

oops didn't realize this was an old thread

[Wolfman]

Gallant or Boudreau are the only right answers

[Red]

I would be happy with this. Green was targeted by Treliving when the team hired Gulutzan, but the Canucks would not release him from his contract.

Didnt know that. Too bad. He'd be excellent here.

As for Ward, one more thing I don't like. He doesnt go with the hot hand often. Sometimes a player just has that game, but Ward will not see it and go with regular rotation. it's like he doesnt care about momentum, confidence etc.

[Roof-Daddy]

Gallant and Boudreau still sitting there, and we stuck with the guy who tossed an ice cold goalie who hadn't played in months straight into the middle of an elimination game.

Reaping what they sow.

[ComixZone]

Gallant and Boudreau still sitting there, and we stuck with the guy who tossed an ice cold goalie who hadn't played in months straight into the middle of an elimination game.

Reaping what they sow.

https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarmwsuR9sDRObyU/giphy.gif

[Ashasx]

Gallant and Boudreau still sitting there, and we stuck with the guy who tossed an ice cold goalie who hadn't played in months straight into the middle of an elimination game.

Reaping what they sow.

This entire situation makes me question how hot Treliving's seat really is.

If this was truly his last kick at the can, would he truly bet it all on Geoff Ward?

[troutman]

Al Arbour could not revive this team. Time to change the core.

Boudreau does not impress me.

[Ashasx]

Al Arbour could not revive this team. Time to change the core.

Boudreau does not impress me.

Maybe this core is truly rotten but it would have been nice to see what they could have done with a coach who has had a history of recent NHL success.

[GioforPM]

Al Arbour could not revive this team. Time to change the core.

Boudreau does not impress me.

I like Boudreau. Gallant doesn't impress me. Unceremoniously dumped twice, with one really weirdly successful season between. And not hired by anyone. His record isn't horrible so I think something else is going on.

[Inglewood Jack]

Al Arbour could not revive this team. Time to change the core.

once this is has been proven to be true, either by finally hiring a proven coach for at least one season or summoning the ghost of Al Arbour to haunt the bench, then I will gladly drive each member of this core to the airport one by one. until then, we'll never know for sure.

[Textcritic]

I like Boudreau. Gallant doesn't impress me. Unceremoniously dumped twice, with one really weirdly successful season between. And not hired by anyone. His record isn't horrible so I think something else is going on.
I am not all that impressed by either of them, but I think I, like you, find Boudreau more appealing. I still think that nothing really changes until the core group is changed, but then that itself is also extremely difficult to do.

At the end of the day, and from my decades of experience as an arm-chair GM I remain convinced that it is damn hard to build a contending NHL team. There are only a few of them, and for all the years of trial and error suffered by the vast majority of franchises, it really does look to require a tonne of time, experience and luck.

[Cowtownred]

Gallant or Boudreau are the only right answers

I would go all out Calgary Canucks, and hire Travis Green, after he gets fired by Benning! :D

[ComixZone]

I would go all out Calgary Canucks, and hire Travis Green, after he gets fired by Benning! :D

He has won more playoff series as a head coach than Gulutzan, Peters, and Ward combined...so that's an improvement.

[GioforPM]

I am not all that impressed by either of them, but I think I, like you, find Boudreau more appealing. I still think that nothing really changes until the core group is changed, but then that itself is also extremely difficult to do.

At the end of the day, and from my decades of experience as an arm-chair GM I remain convinced that it is damn hard to build a contending NHL team. There are only a few of them, and for all the years of trial and error suffered by the vast majority of franchises, it really does look to require a tonne of time, experience and luck.

All true. Look at the top teams right now and figure out what they did to be successful. 3 our of 4 involved massive failure leading to a 1 or 2 pick - TB, TO, Avs), which Calgary's never done, even once (and when they got even close in 2014 they picked the consensus top guy left and it hasn't worked out).

[Inferno]

once this is has been proven to be true, either by finally hiring a proven coach for at least one season or summoning the ghost of Al Arbour to haunt the bench, then I will gladly drive each member of this core to the airport one by one. until then, we'll never know for sure.

Exactly, hire a good coach and if the team still plays like junk I'll admit the core needs to be changed. Enough of these bargain bin signings. The Dallas series should have been enough to tell Treliving to not give him the full-time job.

[zamler]

Gallant and Boudreau still sitting there, and we stuck with the guy who tossed an ice cold goalie who hadn't played in months straight into the middle of an elimination game.

Reaping what they sow.
That should have been the tipping point, off season firing.

[Igottago]

The man has been head coach in the NHL for a grand total of 52 regular season hockey games.

52.

Im not sold he is the guy that should be here, but i do know that there is simply far to little data to know, for sure, one way or the other. Particularly when we know that the majority of the core of this roster has been constant throughout 3 head coaches now. 4 to a lesser extent.

Niether one of his seasons have been any where near to "normal" of his tenure either. He took over under difficult circumstances and with COVID they have continued.

I think he should at least be given a chance, even if the early returns aren't as promising as one would hope. Every good, and bad, coach has had poor streaks in their careers.

Patience is a virtue sometimes, and since nothing will change as far as coaching and management until at least the "summer"....may as well see if it gets better or not before going off the deep end.

That is the problem. Why is a team that is supposed to be in contending years hiring a coach with no experience? This isn't the time to be a training ground for new faces, its a time for experience and expectations.

[SuperMatt18]

Of the coaches who contracts are known by Cap Friendly the Flames are spending the least on their head coach.

https://www.capfriendly.com/coaches

I don't know if it's the GM'S theory, or if this is something that ownership mandates, but it's clear that this organization has a tendency to cheap out on coaches in recent years.

Troy Brouwer's buyout makes more for the next two seasons than our head coach does.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I really like Huska and these comments. The mentality of committed athletes is to overcome obstacles. High performance athletes thrive in environments created by coaches like this I believe. It's basically here's how we improve. Top notch. Compare that to fan and media bluster (myself included). All these guys in the NHL mentally are in top 1% - compare this to GT and PGT haha.

1357818931939995648

[Jeff Lebowski]

I really like Huska and these comments. The mentality of committed athletes is to overcome obstacles. High performance athletes thrive in environments created by coaches like this I believe. It's basically here's how we improve. Top notch. Compare that to fan and media bluster (myself included). All these guys in the NHL mentally are in top 1% - compare this to GT and PGT haha.

1357818931939995648

*To overcome obstacles and achieve goals, I should say.

[btimbit]

Of the coaches who contracts are known by Cap Friendly the Flames are spending the least on their head coach.

https://www.capfriendly.com/coaches

I don't know if it's the GM'S theory, or if this is something that ownership mandates, but it's clear that this organization has a tendency to cheap out on coaches in recent years.

Troy Brouwer's buyout makes more for the next two seasons than our head coach does.

I could be completely misremembering, but pretty sure every coaching search this team has done in the last 10 years, we start reading and hearing rumours of ownership not wanting to pay up

[Red]

I could be completely misremembering, but pretty sure every coaching search this team has done in the last 10 years, we start reading and hearing rumours of ownership not wanting to pay up

And is there any proof of that or is this just typical fan talk about the evil cheap owners?

[btimbit]

And is there any proof of that or is this just typical fan talk about the evil cheap owners?

Couldn't tell ya, it might even have been Francis-type reporting meant to stir crap up and get clicks. All I know is it's in the back of my head as something talked about, and looking at all the recent coaching hires makes me think there might be something to it

[Gaskal]

I don't know if it's the GM'S theory, or if this is something that ownership mandates, but it's clear that this organization has a tendency to cheap out on coaches in recent years.

It looks like Peters made $2 million a year when he was with us so it's probably reasonable to expect they'd be at least willing to shell out around that range, given that he had the team competing for the President's Trophy.

We largely retaining the core from then, I might add, so that gives me a lot of pause when assigning blame to the players themselves. Why the hell did we look so fast and deadly two years ago and look like suddenly slow and molasses with mostly the same personnel? We're trying to win a Cup here, not let him grasp his bearings, he's had seasons worth of familiarity with the team already so that can't be excused.

If Ward doesn't show some sign that he can take this team to the next step this season he should be shown the door.

Also looks like ol' Torts is up for renewal after this season! I'm hoping Laine is a crybaby, Columbus falls out of contention, Torts is let go and we throw him an offer lol.

[Red]

Sounds like fans voicing their frustrations.
Treliving is a well liked guy. Blaming the owners for his shortcomings is an easy out for his fans.

The team spends to the cap. What logical rationale is there to put a cap on coaches when they only make what an average player does?

[Ashasx]

Sounds like fans voicing their frustrations.
Treliving is a well liked guy. Blaming the owners for his shortcomings is an easy out for his fans.

The team spends to the cap. What logical rationale is there to put a cap on coaches when they only make what an average player does?

It really doesn't make sense, but fans are just trying to figure out why our last 7 coaches look like this

Geoff Ward
Bill Peters
Glen Gulutzan
Bob Hartley
Brent Sutter
Mike Keenan
Jim Playfair

[Red]

It really doesn't make sense, but fans are just trying to figure out why our last 7 coaches look like this

Geoff Ward
Bill Peters
Glen Gulutzan
Bob Hartley
Brent Sutter
Mike Keenan
Jim Playfair


I will take a crack at it.

Playfair. Good assistant to Sutter. Natural progression when Sutter decided to focus on GMing so he could spend more time signing starlike Marchment or making great trades like the one with Phaneuf.
Keenan - old buddy. A once great coach with reputation of riling the troops.
Brent - an up and comer with good family genes.
Heartley - no idea why he was hired, but he was a SC winning coach with experience. A known commodity.
GG - Treliving liked him
Bill Peters - Treliving loved him
Ward - Treliving had no heart to replace him after the not all that terrible interim tenure.

[Traditional_Ale]

Bring in Darryl, Ward to assistant. Continue.

Team continues to stink, or players and staff take advantage of a fresh start/do-over.

[Traditional_Ale]

Playfair. Good assistant to Sutter. Natural progression when Sutter decided to focus on GMing so he could spend more time signing starlike Marchment or making great trades like the one with Phaneuf.


The moment Matt Stajan scored the go-ahead goal against the Canucks in the playoffs in that epic comeback to win the only series since 2004, we won that trade. Easily. It just took a while.

[motorcrosser]

I noticed in a recent presser, he said his family is still back in Boston. This could be Covid, or kids school, but maybe he's not totally confident that he'll be around long term. [emoji1745]

[Table 5]

And is there any proof of that or is this just typical fan talk about the evil cheap owners?

One clue would to be to look at how our majority owner runs his other company, CNRL. I'm not in the industry, but I always hear how it's one of the thriftiest run companies in O/G....so chances are Edwards uses a similar philosophy with the Flames. Now CNRL is fairly successful, but what works in one industry doesn't always work in another.

I've only had a couple of professional interactions with the Flames, and they reinforced their general reputation for cheapness.

[SeanCharles]

I'm confused by our line up decisions, I'm not an NHL coach but I don't see all the other teams lining up to split up their scoring talent across 3 lines.

Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube
2 - way line? - Tkachuk is a top 3 offensive player on our team, Lindholm at C and Dube are not.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Scorers + Anchor? Why? Simon doesn't help either of these players. Everyone keeps saying these guys need someone to go dig out pucks for them. They need someone who can read the play and help on the rush, Hudler style.

Mangi - Backlund - Leivo
Fast defensive line?

Mangi has some offensive chops, wasted with Backlund and Leivo

Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom
Mediocre two way C + anchors.

We have our top 6 players spread across 3 lines instead of 2.

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/tampa-bay-lightning/line-combinations/

Tampa, Toronto, Colorado..
All of them have their best talent on their top 2 lines.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Mangi - Backlund - Lindholm
Dube - Bennett - Leivo
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

Or if you really want Lindholm at C

Gaudreau - Monahan - Tkachuk
Mangi - Lindholm - Dube
Bennett - Backlund - Leivo
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

You could swap Monahan and Lindholm if you want but these are lines that all have clear strengths.

Top line has great IQ and positioning.
2nd line has great speed and two way play.
3rd line could be a fantastic shut down line.

4th line is not great.

Anyways it's clear that 5v5 Ward wants to roll 4 lines and hamstring the offense of the top 3 lines.

Combine this with our horrible line matching and refusal to shorten the bench and we are gonna be in for a long frustrating season, where we just can't finish.

Those guys should absolutely be in our top 6..

Why Simon? He’s the guy you put there when injuries strike.

[Red]

One clue would to be to look at how our majority owner runs his other company, CNRL. I'm not in the industry, but I always hear how it's one of the thriftiest run companies in O/G....so chances are Edwards uses a similar philosophy with the Flames. Now CNRL is fairly successful, but what works in one industry doesn't always work in another.

I've only had a couple of professional interactions with the Flames, and they reinforced their general reputation for cheapness.

But that's not how they spend on players. They spend to the cap. This isn't arizona or ottawa on a string shoe budget.

[btimbit]

One clue would to be to look at how our majority owner runs his other company, CNRL. I'm not in the industry, but I always hear how it's one of the thriftiest run companies in O/G....so chances are Edwards uses a similar philosophy with the Flames. Now CNRL is fairly successful, but what works in one industry doesn't always work in another.

I've only had a couple of professional interactions with the Flames, and they reinforced their general reputation for cheapness.

Been my experience as well

We can speculate on the reasons all we want but frankly, the proof is in the pudding and all of our coaches in recent memory have essentially been bargain bin level. Peters got 2 million, that's still below average for coaches. I'd be curious to see what Hartley got but considering he wasn't even in the NHL at the time, I'm guessing it wasn't much

[Red]

It's possible that good coaches won't come here so we get the leftovers.

[camm13]

yeah at this point when ward gets the can, they'll probably promote Huska to head coach.

[N-E-B]

It's possible that good coaches won't come here so we get the leftovers.

Can’t say I blame them to be honest. Why would anyone want to come here? The second the team loses a few games you’re the biggest idiot in town and everyone wants to can you.

I’ve seen some pretty gross things posted about the coach on social media. It’s totally immature and unwarranted. It’s beyond criticism. There’s some pretty nasty things being said about another human being over the way he coaches a game. Some people need to grow the #### up.

I love this city and this team but I don’t think I’d ever want to coach here.

[btimbit]

Can’t say I blame them to be honest. Why would anyone want to come here? The second the team loses a few games you’re the biggest idiot in town and everyone wants to can you.

I’ve seen some pretty gross things posted about the coach on social media. It’s totally immature and unwarranted. It’s beyond criticism. There’s some pretty nasty things being said about another human being over the way he coaches a game. Some people need to grow the #### up.

I love this city and this team but I don’t think I’d ever want to coach here.

It's been crazy to watch

There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to make, so I'll never understand peoples needs to completely make stuff up to #### on him over

[Red]

Coaches hear that everywhere though. It's a tough gig, no doubt.

[Textcritic]

Been my experience as well



We can speculate on the reasons all we want but frankly, the proof is in the pudding and all of our coaches in recent memory have essentially been bargain bin level. Peters got 2 million, that's still below average for coaches. I'd be curious to see what Hartley got but considering he wasn't even in the NHL at the time, I'm guessing it wasn't much
Is it actually? I'm not convinced of this. It seems like this would have been pretty close to average for the time Peters's contract was signed.

I don't doubt that the Flames cut corners to save money, but I am also sceptical that they are cutting these corners with their high-end personnel. The Flames brought Brian Burke in, and that was not cheap.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[btimbit]

Is it actually? I'm not convinced of this. It seems like this would have been pretty close to average for the time Peters's contract was signed.

I don't doubt that the Flames.es cut corners to save money, but I am also sceptical that they are cutting this corners with their high-end personnel. The Flames brought Brian Burke in, and that was not cheap.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

It's hard to say really, since a lot of coach contracts aren't known.

Contracts signed the same year as Peters are Jim Montgomery (1.6m) David Quinn (2.4m) Tortorella (2.5m) Deboer (3m) Trotz (4m)

[kukkudo]

Exactly, hire a good coach and if the team still plays like junk I'll admit the core needs to be changed. Enough of these bargain bin signings. The Dallas series should have been enough tell Treliving to not give him the full-time job.


This right here! Get blown out tomororw night and make a move. If it doesn't move a needle well clean house everyone is available.

[NewFan]

This is my opinion. This coach is not task master. His players doesn't have any clear role. His lines doesn't have any roles. Yesterday Ryan told on radio that his line plays against all opposition lines, played against the first line and against fourth line.
But Jets players told they will play better when he and other winger win board battles and quick transition.
Hartley was task coach that's why he bullied some of his players to do certain task like fighters, 4th liners.
For me if coaches make every player and every line has a role it makes them easier to play. And promote who is playing and performing.
And find and use individual player's best skills to compete that job. Not force them what he thinks should work. These players doesn't need teaching like rebuilding team. These players need role, performance and play their games.

[Red]

This is my opinion. This coach is not task master. His players doesn't have any clear role. His lines doesn't have any roles. Yesterday Ryan told on radio that his line plays against all opposition lines, played against the first line and against fourth line.
But Jets players told they will play better when he and other winger win board battles and quick transition.
Hartley was task coach that's why he bullied some of his players to do certain task like fighters, 4th liners.
For me if coaches make every player and every line has a role it makes them easier to play. And promote who is playing and performing.
And find and use individual player's best skills to compete that job. Not force them what he thinks should work. These players doesn't need teaching like rebuilding team. These players need role, performance and play their games.

A player whose name escapes me now once said that playing for Sutter was easy. Sutter would tell him one thing before each game during the playoffs , outhustle or outplay this guy. And this is all he focused on. Sutters job was to match lines, player knew exactly what to do. If he couldn't out skill him, he would out work him.

[GioforPM]

It's been crazy to watch

There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to make, so I'll never understand peoples needs to completely make stuff up to #### on him over

This is true. You’d think half of CP attends the practices because they all know what each coach is telling the players to do or what “system” they coach.

Sometimes players don’t do what they are told. Especially if they’ve done it one way a long time and are being asked to change.

[1qqaaz]

So most of us agree that inconsistency is part of the core of the team's identity.

Do you think that's primarily a product of the coaching? Or do you think it's from the actual roster/leadership?

[Macindoc]

So most of us agree that inconsistency is part of the core of the team's identity.

Do you think that's primarily a product of the coaching? Or do you think it's from the actual roster/leadership?

Unless we get a genuine NHL-calibre coach, we’ll never know.

[timbit]

I know it’s a different sport....BUT,

Leadership and winning starts at the top, as in ownership.The players are accountable to the coach.
Pittsburgh Steelers have had three coaches since 1970. All 3 had little to NO head coaching experience when hired.

“Pittsburgh Steelers – The Steelers have been a consistent threat ever since Coach Chuck Noll took over the Steelers reigns. A huge reason as to why the Steelers are ranked one is they have had the best ownership in the league this entire time. The Rooney family is consistent, they care about their players and the players play hard for them. Since 1970 they have had just three Head Coaches and all three have won Super Bowls.”

Also , Steelers have the best winning percentage and tied with Patriots for most Superbowls, since 1970.

In 50 years....Mike Tomlin continues to be their 3rd HC.

[mikephoen]

Can’t say I blame them to be honest. Why would anyone want to come here? The second the team loses a few games you’re the biggest idiot in town and everyone wants to can you.

I’ve seen some pretty gross things posted about the coach on social media. It’s totally immature and unwarranted. It’s beyond criticism. There’s some pretty nasty things being said about another human being over the way he coaches a game. Some people need to grow the #### up.

I love this city and this team but I don’t think I’d ever want to coach here.

The same could be said for about half the teams in the NHL. And the other half play in cities where no-one cares about hockey at all. So those are your options if you want to be a head coach of an NHL team. Hear how dumb you are after every loss, or don't hear a thing because no-one cares.

[Sec214]

It's hard to say really, since a lot of coach contracts aren't known.

Contracts signed the same year as Peters are Jim Montgomery (1.6m) David Quinn (2.4m) Tortorella (2.5m) Deboer (3m) Trotz (4m)

That’s our next coach.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It's hard to say really, since a lot of coach contracts aren't known.

Contracts signed the same year as Peters are Jim Montgomery (1.6m) David Quinn (2.4m) Tortorella (2.5m) Deboer (3m) Trotz (4m)

So we overpay mediocre coaches is what you’re saying.

[wired]

It's possible that good coaches won't come here so we get the leftovers.

In My Opinion, the Flames organization is NOT a premiere destination for both coaches and players at this point.
The organization is starting to take on an Oilers stank. (roast me, I would too)
The inability to do what is right for the TEAM, be it a quality player, or a quality coach, is looking like what the Oilers have done for years.
I don't think that this team will entice elite players or coaches to come here for quite a while.
My take on this team, which I am finding it getting harder to sit down for 3 plus hours to watch a game.:bag:

[btimbit]

So we overpay mediocre coaches is what you’re saying.

haha, yeah certainly looks like it

[Enoch Root]

Can’t say I blame them to be honest. Why would anyone want to come here? The second the team loses a few games you’re the biggest idiot in town and everyone wants to can you.

I’ve seen some pretty gross things posted about the coach on social media. It’s totally immature and unwarranted. It’s beyond criticism. There’s some pretty nasty things being said about another human being over the way he coaches a game. Some people need to grow the #### up.

I love this city and this team but I don’t think I’d ever want to coach here.

Do you believe that it is worse in Calgary than any other Canadian city, or any of the cities in the US where hockey is on the front page?

Because it isn't.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's possible that good coaches won't come here so we get the leftovers.

True. I can't see the current Flames being viewed as a place for an established head coach to progress their career at this point.

The team are a bunch of coach killers. We have a core that cried that the coach was too mean and got him fired. I think the message is out there that in Calgary, the inmates are running the asylum.

[Inglewood Jack]

31 (soon to expand to a whopping 32) NHL head coach positions available on the entire planet. If this is your profession and you’re looking for work, I have a hard time believing you’d be that picky over the particular location, unless you had specific things like family considerations.

[FlamesAddiction]

31 (soon to expand to a whopping 32) NHL head coach positions available on the entire planet. If this is your profession and you’re looking for work, I have a hard time believing you’d be that picky over the particular location, unless you had specific things like family considerations.

But it's not like the Flames have been the only team looking at coaches the past few years. The ones that were considered game changers had their pick of the litter. The number of available coaches considered to be game changers is probably smaller than the number of vacancies in any given year. I also don't think it is too uncommon for proven coaches to sit out and bide their time rather than opting to jump into a pressure cooker.

The Flames get to pick from the ones that can't afford to be picky.

[DeluxeMoustache]

If you saw the interviews from Bennett and Gio yesterday, once the mandatory Bennett nonsense was dealt with, they said they need to get pucks in deep and be hard on the forecheck. *sigh*

I have tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt but, yeah, I am tired of Geoff Ward

It’s the Oilers. Try to confuse their D and they will gladly oblige.

[Classic_Sniper]

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses and should be held accountable? Those darn opponents who are making it so difficult for the Flames to achieve their game plan. It’s as if they’re paid or something to do it too. Very shady. The opposition coach should just lay out a game plan for the Flames to win every time, that’ll solve all of our problems.

[Calgary4LIfe]

IIRC, Hartley was making over 2 million a year (can't remember the exact figure - 2.5? 3.0?), and that was before coaching salaries saw a dramatic increase.


As for good coaches not wanting to come here, I am not sure about that. We know that Boudreau wasn't contacted - maybe he was lying and just helping Calgary to save face, maybe not. I don't consider him a good coach anyway (not one single season in his resume has one of his teams 'overachieved' - usually the opposite, especially in the playoffs IMO).



I really do believe that Treliving is just focused on certain ideologies within the coaching ranks that agree with his own philosophies.



One thing that I am unsure of is how Darryl Sutter fits into that category. He wasn't contacted either before Treliving hired Peters (though it seemed that nobody else was as Peters seemed to be Treliving's target). However, IIRC, LA was one of the better possession teams under Sutter. I have to assume that nothing much has changed and that Darryl would still be happy to coach here - it has only been 2 years. He is by far my first choice if a coach is going to get replaced.


There is nobody else out there that really stands out as a great coach. Like I said, I think Boudreau is overrated. Gallant seems to get his teams to out-perform expectations, but he also seems to get fired rather quickly for some reason, and that gives me some doubts.


I really want a coach with a track record of taking his teams further than what the expectations were, or at least entering an organization that was severely under-performing and then getting them back on track. Bonus if they did it with more than one team. Hartley fits that bill, but there is no way you can bring him back, especially with the rumoured 'issues' (and I am not advocating that - just pointing out examples).


It seems like there are two sides to this argument:


1) Why change the coach again, when they have done that so often already? It HAS to be the players!
2) Hire a competent coach for once, and then we can at least rule that out if it doesn't work. Then we can blame it on the players!


I think the longer either of these questions go unanswered, and the Flames continue to flounder in mediocrity, or at least not perform to expectations (2nd round of playoffs? Does that seem fair? 3rd round?), the more heat that Treliving will face. Whether it is the players, or whether it is the coaching staff is irrelevant as he is responsible for addressing both issues.


I am also not advocating that Treliving should be dismissed either. Just stating that he is indeed responsible for coaching decisions and roster moves, and that if the Flames don't break out of this cycle he will eventually be thrown into the fire like everyone else.



What people don't bring up or don't want to talk about, is that his first season was his most successful season where he made the least amount of roster moves/coaching decisions. Now, I do think that this team is more talented and better constructed that that team was - there is no question. The counter argument is that Flames got 'lucky' in playing an 'easy' team in the first round. We can argue that point forever, but all I know is that this team has been through a rebuild, every single contract on the team right now has passed through his desk, all the roster moves are his, and all the coaching hires have been his already. Yet this team still hasn't gotten out of the 1st round.


2013/14 was year one of the rebuld (2012/13 was the 'tear down', so not sure which year you want to start with). This is the 2020-21 season, so it has been 7 years. Is this team a contender?


We as fans at the moment don't even seem sure that this team is a playoff team this year. Not everyone of course. I think they are a playoff team and something has to go 'off the rails' for them not to be. However, it seems to me that this team is more likely to miss the playoffs than to make it to the conference finals.


Some of the let-downs in the playoffs could be rationalized away under 'poor goaltending' (ignoring that Treliving was responsible for this as well, but I do give him credit for trying and the prices were indeed high at times). This year there will be no excuses I think. Whether this is a poorly constructed team, or a team that is poorly coached, even I am not positive. I want a proven coach as defined by me above, but I do think that this will be the year that if the Flames miss, Treliving gets pushed out of the frying pan and into the fire, and he will start taking a lot of heat. He better be very sure on Ward.


7 years should be long enough to either build a winner, or know you built a dud. I would at least like to know for sure just one of these seasons if it was the players or the coach.

[Jacks]

Maybe Treliving just just sucks at evaluating coaches?
He fired Hartley, mid contract in a rebuild, who at least was getting results and holding the players accountable.
The exhaustive search that followed resulted in the hiring of Gulutzan who was a disaster.
Next he decided not to bother interviewing anyone and just hired Peters right away.
Next he extended the interm coach who seems mediocre at best.

It's been said before but if the coaches the Flames hire (and fire) are never able to find another NHL head coach job after maybe they aren't that good to begin with.

[Royle9]

Maybe Treliving just just sucks at evaluating coaches?
He fired Hartley, mid contract in a rebuild, who at least was getting results and holding the players accountable.
The exhaustive search that followed resulted in the hiring of Gulutzan who was a disaster.
Next he decided not to bother interviewing anyone and just hired Peters right away.
Next he extended the interm coach who seems mediocre at best.

It's been said before but if the coaches the Flames hire (and fire) are never able to find another NHL head coach job after maybe they aren't that good to begin with.

This nailed it.
Starts at the top and Brad's had a pretty long leash here.
As much as I want a new coach (real bad) I think we need to look at the GM role too, how much longer does it get?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses and should be held accountable? Those darn opponents who are making it so difficult for the Flames to achieve their game plan. It’s as if they’re paid or something to do it too. Very shady. The opposition coach should just lay out a game plan for the Flames to win every time, that’ll solve all of our problems.


You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

[GranteedEV]

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses

You may notice, had you actually read the thread you are so coyly responding to, that this was created when the Flames were 18-11-2 under Ward.

That is not a diatribe blaming a coach for losses.

[SuperMatt18]

You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

This might be the GM too. I think the organization wants to play “heavy hockey” but built a team that isn’t good at it.

Every time I see them dump a puck into the corner on Gaudreau’s wing I want to lose my mind.

In the 18-19 season when this team was playing good they rarely dumped the puck in and pretty much every regular forward had a carry-in percentage above 60%.

This year I’d be shocked if any of them were above 60% - the coach even has Gaudreau dumping it in.

GranteedEV said it in his post but really to me the issue I have with this coach had little to do with his record but is more with the style he has the team playing, & his bench management.

Really they play a style that is dependant on winning the special teams battle, and at 5v5 they just want to muck it up and play boring, low risk hockey.

[Classic_Sniper]

You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

You may notice, had you actually read the thread you are so coyly responding to, that this was created when the Flames were 18-11-2 under Ward.

That is not a diatribe blaming a coach for losses.

This is absolutely a diatribe on the coach which has been bumped up due to losses mounting. Like honestly, is anyone here a professional hockey coach? Does anyone here know more about the game then a Geoff Ward or a Bill Peters or a Glen Gulutzan? We don’t know squat. This game has so much read and react I don’t know how coaching could possibly ever be the biggest problem. To me, it always comes down to the players or possibly the GM who constructs the team and vision.

I just think this place has an addiction. An addiction to blame coaches and blame every aspect of what we believe is good coaching or bad coaching like we’re experts or something. Like how many more coaches will this team have to go through before this fanbase finally understands it’s not the coach?

Now I’ll be fair, a lot of fanbases do this, an example would be up North who’ve went through more coaches than we have and they’ve tried it all. Player’s coaches, veteran coaches, top prospect coached, hall of fame coaches, future hall of fame coaches and nothing. Absolutely no difference and a new coach here, wouldn’t make much of a difference either because unless they can strap on the skates and blow past defenders like McDavid can, they’re still just suits standing behind a bench.

[FlamesAddiction]

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

I agree with this. I don’t think there is a coach in the league that tells the players that as soon as they get in the offensive zone, they need to dump and chase at all costs. Obviously they would rather have players keep possession and make a play. But if the option is dump or a high probability of losing possession, you have to make the safe play.

I will say that this team has to dump and chase more often than some others, which is a personnel issue and not a coaching one

[Manhattanboy]

I’ve had enough of all of them and sorry to say I will always love you Gelinas but your time behind this bench is done as well.

[shadowlord]

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. Dump and chase is a valid strategy. But what I've noticed especially in the last few games is that the puck carrier will dump the puck into a corner, but no Flames will go after the puck. So we're doing the dump part, but nobody is chasing it.

It's one of my big criticisms of the Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane line's play last season. For some reason, Tkachuk wasn't chasing after the puck, and Mangiapane would make an effort to get there with his speed, but either didn't get there in time or lost the puck battle.

I think they both get confused for a split second when playing together that one is supposed to be playing RW since they're both LWs. You'll see this particularly in the defensive zone when both of them end up on the same side of the ice.

But enough of that line, I see similar elements in Gaudreau's line too. I think that line needs a puck retriever that isn't afraid to throw the body a bit. Lindholm is a good example. Lucic has good board play, but he's too slow. Ferland was great at it and Hudler was able to get there quickly and pass to his teammates (because he wasn't a big body to retain the puck if it got physical).

Bennett could do that role, if he could somehow play more consistently... I haven't seen enough of Simon or Leivo to make that determination. However, Monahan and Gaudreau rarely go in to support their winger, so any winger there has to fight off the defenders on his own. I think that's why Lindholm's talents are wasted on that line, but Lindholm is the team's most effective RW for them. Lindholm's wrist shot is one of his assets, and he shouldn't be responsible for puck retrieval on his own.

If you want to see a master of puck possession play, see Craig Conroy in the later stages of his Flames career. His work using his teammates to keep the cycle going was frustrating to opponents, I'm sure. What I noticed is that those linemates didn't need to be big bruisers that stayed along the boards... Conroy somehow made it so that linemates could stay away from the boards without the puck, then pop-by for an instance to chip the puck to another teammate to continue the cycle.

Anyway, the way the Flames are currently constructed, if the players refuse to chase after pucks, then they should carry the puck into the zone in rather than play dump and chase. The coach can preach about "getting pucks deep", but if the players aren't retreiving it, then we're going to see less offensive pressure and fewer scoring chances.

[dissentowner]

Geoff Ward is GG v.2.0. but not the one your thinking.
Greg Gilbert.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Dump and chase is a tool you need in your toolbox, which you don’t need to rely on as much when you have a quick transition game and play with pace. It was at its worst when Smith was here but it’s still not much better

[DeluxeMoustache]

Duplicate

[Calgary4LIfe]

This is absolutely a diatribe on the coach which has been bumped up due to losses mounting. Like honestly, is anyone here a professional hockey coach? Does anyone here know more about the game then a Geoff Ward or a Bill Peters or a Glen Gulutzan? We don’t know squat. This game has so much read and react I don’t know how coaching could possibly ever be the biggest problem. To me, it always comes down to the players or possibly the GM who constructs the team and vision.

I just think this place has an addiction. An addiction to blame coaches and blame every aspect of what we believe is good coaching or bad coaching like we’re experts or something. Like how many more coaches will this team have to go through before this fanbase finally understands it’s not the coach?

Now I’ll be fair, a lot of fanbases do this, an example would be up North who’ve went through more coaches than we have and they’ve tried it all. Player’s coaches, veteran coaches, top prospect coached, hall of fame coaches, future hall of fame coaches and nothing. Absolutely no difference and a new coach here, wouldn’t make much of a difference either because unless they can strap on the skates and blow past defenders like McDavid can, they’re still just suits standing behind a bench.


This isn't an argument. What else is there to talk about on a forum after the game? There would only be 1 thread per day on game days - a PGT - and every single post would either be: "Yay, we won!", or "Dammit, we lost!". That's it.


If you don't agree with what is being said, then feel free to voice your opinions on why you don't agree (like much of the rest of your post), but posting that people shouldn't have an opinion on this because they are not professional coaches at or above the level of the coaches that are being critiqued, adds absolutely nothing of value.

[DropIt]

Same team has failed multiple coaches. Honestly can't picture this teams makeup winning with any coach and that's the bottom line

[Moneyhands23]

I like chicken, I like Liver...Meow mix Meow mix please Deliver!!

[Igottago]

Same team has failed multiple coaches. Honestly can't picture this teams makeup winning with any coach and that's the bottom line

We don't know the answer to this because since Hartley, they haven't played for a coach with a record of NHL success. Its just as possible they've always played for bad coaches.

[browna]

Same team has failed multiple coaches. Honestly can't picture this teams makeup winning with any coach and that's the bottom line

We won the Western Conference two seasons ago. And a Frolik tap in OT miss in Game 2 away from probably burying Colorado in the first round.

Edit:Frolik, not Backlund.
Backlund decided to just let McKinnon go by him in the other way up the ice to score the winner.

[TheSquatch]

So it's Backlund! I knew it!

[Inferno]

Like how many more coaches will this team have to go through before this fanbase finally understands it’s not the coach.

Like I said, when they get a good one who wasn't picked from the bargain bin and still look like junk. Preferably one who doesn't have a past of being a racist #######.

[GranteedEV]

We don't know the answer to this because since Hartley, they haven't played for a coach with a record of NHL success. Its just as possible they've always played for bad coaches.

One thing is for sure, the fanbase's reactions (including my own (https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpost.php?p=5742855&postcount=415)) to Bob Hartley's firing:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=154485


are in stark contrast to the reactions to Glen Gulutzan's firing (:

Post 1369 and onward (https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=168268&page=23)

So is the fanbase "always" wanting the coach fired when the team does poorly? I don't think so. The 2015-16 Flames drafted 6th overall after a playoff season and a big offseason trade... and yet (a majority of) people were being patient with that coach based on what we saw on the ice.

[timbit]

If you saw the interviews from Bennett and Gio yesterday, once the mandatory Bennett nonsense was dealt with, they said they need to get pucks in deep and be hard on the forecheck. *sigh*

I have tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt but, yeah, I am tired of Geoff Ward

It’s the Oilers. Try to confuse their D and they will gladly oblige.

They’re giving the ago old standard replies.

Do you really expect them to respond with...


“Need better Width and Depth on the rush and in the OZ”.

“ We need to expand the OZ with larger triangulation”.

“Have to be more consistent in creating eye contact and better receiving angles for the puck carrier.“

“ We have to have better communication...more talk.”

“We need to create more time and space”

“Win the blue lines .“

That’s what they’re being told. Just not what they’re going to tell you.

[zamler]

Some good takes in that thread. Not sarcasm was entertained.

[DeluxeMoustache]

They’re giving the ago old standard replies.

Do you really expect them to respond with...


“Need better Width and Depth on the rush and in the OZ”.

“ We need to expand the OZ with larger triangulation”.

“Have to be more consistent in creating eye contact and better receiving angles for the puck carrier.“

“ We have to have better communication...more talk.”

“We need to create more time and space”

“Win the blue lines .“

That’s what they’re being told. Just not what they’re going to tell you.



None of your stuff, I would’ve settled for using our speed to dictate the pace. Or traffic in front. Making life difficult for the goalie. That’s where it’s at

[Sainters7]

If you saw the interviews from Bennett and Gio yesterday, once the mandatory Bennett nonsense was dealt with, they said they need to get pucks in deep and be hard on the forecheck. *sigh*

I have tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt but, yeah, I am tired of Geoff Ward

It’s the Oilers. Try to confuse their D and they will gladly oblige.

Exactly. I think I'm finding this season a lot less frustrating than others seem to be, as once they a) retained Ward, and b) didn't make any significant additions at forward, my expectations for this year went out the window.

Love the guy as an assistant, they should've just put him back to that. It's not even a ''he's too nice'' thing as I've read on these boards either, I just straight up don't like the style he has them playing, and I don't think he makes in-game adjusts well either.

This feels like the final season before some major changes, on and off the ice.

[timbit]

None of your stuff, I would’ve settled for using our speed to dictate the pace. Or traffic in front. Making life difficult for the goalie. That’s where it’s at

I , literally, just explained how you “dictate speed” , create and maintain puck possession.

[djsFlames]

They had an opportunity to shake up the core after the bubble.

They didn't opt for it.

PLD became available. They bowed out of the bidding.

They brought back the same group with some fringe tinkering. The greatest positive of those has been the bottom pairing.

Otherwise it is more of what we've become accustomed to, and why should treliving or any one be surprised.

For the first 8 games however, it looked like Gaudreay and Monahan had elevated their games, which made up for the lack of depth scoring. It made a difference in some key games. Then after Gaudreau's great game and SO winner they disappeared again rather than continuing to pour it on. That just knocks us back down to mediocrity and an anemic offense.

The bright side is we don't allow a lot thanks to this vezina caliber goalie. But so long as no more than one or two guys up front steps up on any given night, we're just fighting to eke out a low scoring win.

We need more than half the forwards to put their best effort on the ice every night. No ####ing around. Driving the net. Trying to score like their jobs depend on it. Playing with intensity and passion.

We've seen each and every guy bring that at some point. Problem is they rarely all are firing at the same time.

Does that fall on coaching?

In a sense. On one hand it shouldn't be Wards job to tell these guys to play with passion. That should be a given, but alas they need motivating to stay on their toes. Management decided to go with a solid pro but one that didn't have any tricks in his bag or hardness to him.

End of the day, this falls on management for knowing the inconsistencies of this group and believing that a nice, inexperienced coach that wouldn't make their lives hard would bring out the best in them.

Or ownership if they refuse to allocate the needed money to fill that position adequately.

Either way you can only shake your head. Its not a bad team, but there is no one there to crack the whip or push the buttons.

Why limit the potential of your maxed cap group by going cheap with the leadership?

I don't know how to understand the logic there.

Then add that they had three cracks at it after Hartley and took more or less the same route each time - unproven at the NHL level.

Just hard to fathom considering how thoughtful and detail oriented Brad appears to be at every position except coaching, where he sets the bar befuddlingly low and I just can't wrap my mind around it.

It will ultimately be his downfall unless the players turn it around themselves, because they will not be pushed to do so.

If Treliving gets another chance at picking a coach, which he probably shouldn't, you damn well hope he learned something by now, cause holy ####.

[Sainters7]

I have a feeling larger changes would have occurred this past offseason if not for the whole Covid situation, and the season going into autumn the way it did. Had it just been a regular year ending in early June, with no economic fallout from the pandemic and a full offseason, I truly wonder if there would have been a much larger shakeup in Calgary in terms of bigger names shipped out, and also not extending Ward. Kinda feels like the current group was granted one final year to prove it just because of all that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just the feeling I had when nothing big really happened in that regard.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I , literally, just explained how you “dictate speed” , create and maintain puck possession.


You do recognize I was giving the slightly more digestible player platitude

[GioforPM]

“PLD became available. They bowed out of the bidding.”

You wanted Calgary to beat the Winnipeg offer? For a guy who maybe wouldn’t even want to be here and would pull the same crap as he did there?

[timbit]

You do recognize I was giving the slightly more digestible player platitude

That would be very difficult to discern or recognize, when your response opens with

“ None of your stuff”.

Agreed?

[DeluxeMoustache]

That would be very difficult to discern or recognize, when your response opens with

“ None of your stuff”.

Agreed?


Haha, sure, that’s fair. “None of your stuff, too specific”

[Classic_Sniper]

Dump and chase is a tool you need in your toolbox, which you don’t need to rely on as much when you have a quick transition game and play with pace. It was at its worst when Smith was here but it’s still not much better

Problem with this team’s “quick” transition game is that most opposition teams generally apply a hard forecheck on the Flames’ defensemen as well, so this team is in survival mode half the time just trying to clear the puck out of danger.

It honestly would be nice to have a couple big horses at the center position who can defend the cycle well then lug the puck up the middle of the ice and distribute equally well left or right. But the Flames don’t really have that guy(s), their best distributors sadly are on the wing (Gaudreau and Tkachuk) and wingers are more limited in their options to make plays.

[Classic_Sniper]

Like I said, when they get a good one who wasn't picked from the bargain bin and still look like junk. Preferably one who doesn't have a past of being a racist #######.

Haven’t the Oilers already proven that “good” head coaches mean absolutely squat? This franchise paid for the big hall of fame names like the late Pat Quinn, and Ken Hitchcock. Top tier coaches like Todd McLellan and Dave Tippett. Up and comers like Eakins and Krueger. Yet, many of these coaches have been left completely bewildered and with a pink slip in their mailbox. Not to mention elite of the elite Mike Babcock failed to inspire his Toronto Maple Lead group. Is first time NHL head coach Sheldon Keefe just that much better than Mike Babcock or something?

Ragging on coaching is such low hanging fruit in my opinion. I will 90% of the time, put my blame on player and roster construction over coaching. Players play the game, they’re on the ice, they read the game, they make the plays or misplays that win the game or lose the game.

[SuperMatt18]

More proof that Ward is clueless.

Dresses Rinaldo-Froese-Nordstrom as the 4th line to get dummied.

Plus that means the third line is Lucic-Backlund-Mangiapane...meaning you have Lucic on one of the lines that’s likely matched against either McDavid or Draisaitl.

Just hamstringing the team with these decisions.

[GioforPM]

More proof that Ward is clueless.

Dresses Rinaldo-Froese-Nordstrom as the 4th line to get dummied.

Plus that means the third line is Lucic-Backlund-Mangiapane...meaning you have Lucic on one of the lines that’s likely matched against either McDavid or Draisaitl.

Just hamstringing the team with these decisions.

If McDavid/Draisaitl go off in that situation it’s because of Backlund, not Lucic.

[GranteedEV]

If McDavid/Draisaitl go off in that situation it’s because of Backlund, not Lucic.

not if lucic has his nightly coughup

[Inferno]

Haven’t the Oilers already proven that “good” head coaches mean absolutely squat?

The Flames are not the Oilers. Yes, the Oilers are proof that a good coach can't fix a bad team. But atleast they've tried hiring good coaches to prove that.

The Flames have already showed what they're capable of with a non-bargain bin coach.

[SuperMatt18]

If McDavid/Draisaitl go off in that situation it’s because of Backlund, not Lucic.

Nope, doesn’t matter who your Center is they need wings that can keep up for a shutdown line.

McDavid and Draisaitl like to play fast and attack on the rush. Having Lucic and his skating on that line is a liability in transition and it’s asking a lot of Backlund to overcome that.

[GG51]

Can’t agree more.

This professional coach lacks some basic logic. Such as, if you put some one along Johnny and Mony, at least put a NHLer, yet Buddy got many games then returned to AHL. Looks like a failed tanking, can’t we even beat the Oilers on this?

This team have 4 first liners, yet he can’t find a combination to make sure a first line. None of them are super stars can carry a line alone, they need to play with first liner to be effective, so put some random guy on each of the top 2 lines only makes it two second lines at best.

The line shuffling in the previous games was ridiculous, everyone can play together, except put 13 23 28 together. Is it a try to average all the lines, say 4x3rd line =12 are better than 1+2+3+4=10? More ridiculous is it worked somehow in one game.

If the lines can change like this, why not give 93 even 77 a try to play with better players. They were skilled prospects, not been successful, but at least have approved their skills, and have been put on the 4th line rotten together. One left and playing as 3rd line center on the Penguins, let me wondering is flames that deep on the center and don’t have a position for him? Yet we have to put our best right wing at center? Of course they picked up Crosby’s winger for free.

Bennett has been one of the best players in playoffs, centering Lucic and Dube, why not let them play together as the 3rd line, and give 13 23 their missing piece with 28. See, everyone got their positions. A single move put 28 on the center messed everything, both top lines are looking wingers, 11 is not happy on the 3rd line, and Bennett wants leave. It’s rather confused.

Looks the culture changed, not sure if it’s because coach, but good players want to leave, and bad players also want to leave. And nearly all the previous flames are happy so far with other teams this season. Can we just found a previous head coach, as head coach?

[GioforPM]

Nope, doesn’t matter who your Center is they need wings that can keep up for a shutdown line.

McDavid and Draisaitl like to play fast and attack on the rush. Having Lucic and his skating on that line is a liability in transition and it’s asking a lot of Backlund to overcome that.

Shutdown has always been mainly on the C and the D pair if you are trying to match like that.

Lucic is not that bad defensively. The two big giveaways this year so far were huge all right, but I’d rather him than anyone on the 4th line.

[GioforPM]

Yessssss! What a nice rush by Dube and a sweet shot by Lindholm.

ETA: wrong thread by I don’t care.

[GranteedEV]

Shutdown has always been mainly on the C and the D pair if you are trying to match like that.



I don't know which coach but we've had wingers shadow mcdavid in the past. Gully maybe?

[GioforPM]

I don't know which coach but we've had wingers shadow mcdavid in the past. Gully maybe?

I can’t think of who that would have been.

[SuperMatt18]

4th line is a tire fire

Edit: Wrong thread

[howard_the_duck]

Leivo was scratched tonight for...Rinaldo?

[Dan02]

Ward must go.

First intermission would be a good time.

[K1LLswitch]

Terrible line-up tonight. What is ward thinking.

[shogged]

with bennetts quote they shared during the game that he didn't know why he was scratched and wondered if the organization was playing games with him or not, makes me think Ward isn't the best communicator. What's the point of sitting him if he doesn't know what you want from him?

[BoLevi]

Was there a reasonable theory on the board about why Ward got re-signed this offseason?

I mean, there must be something that we are all missing?

[Owee18]

This type of hockey is getting really bad. Embarrassed 17-3 in shots after 1 period??? Team not ready to play again. Coach is responsible to have the team ready. This cannot keep going on. Tre has to start holding Coach accountable instead of saying we need to trade x or y or z.

[FlamesAddiction]

Was there a reasonable theory on the board about why Ward got re-signed this offseason?

I mean, there must be something that we are all missing?

COVID. I don't think the Flames wanted to spend on a coach with everything up in the air.

There was so much uncertainty at the time and no one knew if the season would even go ahead.

I don't think this is strictly a coaching issue though. Gio is showing his age. A Norris caliber defenseman makes a huge difference and we don't have that anymore. Monahan and Gaudreau are also lazy at times and I suspect are not easy to coach and are at least partly responsible for the country club atmosphere. Time to turn the page on them and go with Tkachuk, Lindholm and Dube as the core to build around.

[SuperMatt18]

More proof that Ward is clueless.

Dresses Rinaldo-Froese-Nordstrom as the 4th line to get dummied.

Plus that means the third line is Lucic-Backlund-Mangiapane...meaning you have Lucic on one of the lines that’s likely matched against either McDavid or Draisaitl.

Just hamstringing the team with these decisions.

I’m an idiot

[Manhattanboy]

Don't know if anyone heard Ward on the radio this morning but he was going on about how important it is to be able to roll all four lines and throw our fourth line out against the other teams' best. To make his point he talked about how were able to use Frolik-Janko-Reider last year to shut down MacKinnon and Eichel. So strange.

[Toonage]

Yep. Actually suggested our worst players be out there to shut down a top line.

I can see where circumstances might lead to that for a brief period and you want to have that trust but this shouldn't be the game plan. Especially at home.

Also, I know why they don't or can't do this but it always strikes me as odd when the guys on the radio talk about poor coaching decisions and ask out loud why no one asks about decisions and when they have the coach as a guest they avoid the questions entirely. Its the elephant in the room for listeners.

[Wastedyouth]

I don't consider Ward to be all that good.

His decisions are questionable. And yet, the team is much better at puck possession and controlling the high danger areas than any team in the last 3 years.... so...

I dunno.

I don't think the team's success is on the coach though. It is very clear that the players on the team really only decide themselves when they want to compete. When they do, they are very good.

When they don't, they are mediocre.

Change the coach, this isn't gonna fix that problem.

[Erick Estrada]

Yep. Actually suggested our worst players be out there to shut down a top line.

I can see where circumstances might lead to that for a brief period and you want to have that trust but this shouldn't be the game plan. Especially at home.

Also, I know why they don't or can't do this but it always strikes me as odd when the guys on the radio talk about poor coaching decisions and ask out loud why no one asks about decisions and when they have the coach as a guest they avoid the questions entirely. Its the elephant in the room for listeners.

Calgary sports media has always been pretty soft.

[GranteedEV]

Don't know if anyone heard Ward on the radio this morning but he was going on about how important it is to be able to roll all four lines and throw our fourth line out against the other teams' best. To make his point he talked about how were able to use Frolik-Janko-Reider last year to shut down MacKinnon and Eichel. So strange.

on paper it's not that strange. Cup caliber teams usually have a 4th line that handles shutdown minutes. He's probably looking to the Marcus Kruger line in Chicago. The Matt Cullen line in Pittsburgh.

Ryan as a 4C in that role is a good fit.

The issue is...


when you don't have those guys, you can't just keep forcing guys like Nordstrom in the lineup thinking that he is that guy.

Now I will admit, Nordstrom was on the 2019 Bruins' 4th line in their run to the SCF so maybe I am just wrong about Nordstrom. But I just get the feeling that was a fluke year for the player.

[Enoch Root]

What Ward is saying isn't wrong - if you can have your 4th line get the occasional shift in against the other team's top line, it really helps with game management. And this happens in almost every game for almost every team.

The question is: HOW MUCH can you get away with it? And that is where I challenge his statement. If we're talking one shift per period - great. But when you start talking about rolling 4 lines, and giving the 4th line 13 or 14 minutes, now you are putting your team at a disadvantage. The top 3 lines should be playing more than the 4th line, simply because they are better.

The other problem, as GranteedEV was saying, is that if your 4th line isn't very good, then that makes everything all the worse.

When I look at our roster, my first thought is not: I sure would like to get that 4th line more ice time!

[Winsor_Pilates]

What Ward is saying isn't wrong - if you can have your 4th line get the occasional shift in against the other team's top line, it really helps with game management. And this happens in almost every game for almost every team.


Well if the other team's top line is out for 6 minutes straight, everyone will get a shift against them.
Pretty sure our taxi squad even got time against them.

[Manhattanboy]

What I found strange was that Ward was talking about being able to use Frolik-Janko-Reider in that role last year and didn't mention any players from the current roster.

[Textcritic]

What I found strange was that Ward was talking about being able to use Frolik-Janko-Reider in that role last year and didn't mention any players from the current roster.
I don't think it is that strange, since he has also pointed out that they are still tinkering with lineups. The fourth line will continue to be a revolving door until Ryan returns from injury.

[Manhattanboy]

I don't think it is that strange, since he has also pointed out that they are still tinkering with lineups. The fourth line will continue to be a revolving door until Ryan returns from injury.

I thought he implied they were able to do that now, which does not seem to be the case, but I might have misunderstood....

[Itse]

I've never been excited about Ward, but I liked a lot of what I saw against Dallas. We did well against a team that had a very clear material advantage; better star players, better goaltending, better defense.

Sure people may disagree with me on that, but that's how I saw it, and considering that I think we did well and looked good doing it. Good enough that I'm willing to give Ward another shot at it.

[GioforPM]

What I found strange was that Ward was talking about being able to use Frolik-Janko-Reider in that role last year and didn't mention any players from the current roster.

It makes sense to me if he’s talking about lineup changes and what challenges they bring. “I used to be able to throw out these guys in that situation sometimes”.

[shadowlord]

I'm hoping that Saturday night's win against the Oilers will give Ward some options for combos that have shown a small sample size of success together.

Gotta give him credit for finding ways to make Lucic and Bennett play better (or at least not look terrible), even if it's only for one game. Hopefully they can build on that.

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau-Monahan-Bennett
Lucic-Backlund-Mangiapane

And if a game is going badly, we can revert, in-game, to some tried and tested combos to screw with opposition's deployment plans.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Lucic-Bennett-Dube

I think it's better than the line blender because I don't want to see Nordstrom on the top line.

[midniteowl]

I think it's better than the line blender because I don't want to see Nordstrom on the top line.


I don't want to see Nordstrom on any line other than the 4th line.

[SuperMatt18]

Another pet peeve with Geoff Ward...he never takes any responsibility for a bad game or a bad decision. Always blames it on the players.

Started with the Talbot pull in the playoffs. Took no blame for it and tried to pass the buck to Talbot for going into the dressing room after being pulled because he was going to put him back in right away...bull####.

Now again tonight in a game where none of the team showed up, but where they were clearly outcoached as well and where he seemingly made no adjustments game to game.

“The game is fair. We got what we deserved tonight. We got outworked, outskated and outcompeted. Usually when that happens you don’t get the result you want.”

No mention of being outcoached and doesn’t take any responsibility for the team coming out flat. Just puts it all on the players when the systems and coaching staff share the blame.

Honestly it’s not a team of hockey players but I lead a team of people at my job and I try to elevate them and give them the praise when we do well, and try to protect them and take the blame when we fail while coaching them and disciplining them if needed behind the scenes.

That’s what a leader does, and I’ve never seen that once from Geoff Ward. Seems like he’s more worried about protecting his own job than actually building a strong team culture, and that goes back to the playoff loss to Dallas.

[Royle9]

Geoff needs to go.
The guy has been out coached since the WPG series and if it wasn’t for injuries the flames lose it.
He cannot adapt, he cannot shorten the bench, he cannot find a system that works and yet we continually run into the same scenarios over and over again.
This leadership group is soft and can go too, take away the C from Gio and change this up.
Shake the room/team up big time change the coach and restart before this season is lost.

[OldSam]

The part I don't like is saying he knew ten minutes into the game the team wasn't working enough. And he did nothing. I think he wants the team to resolve their issues themselves, which would actually be good. However, he is supposed to be this awesome teacher but I don't know any who would let the entire class struggle on and on and not offer any help. The team is flailing. Throw them a fricking bone.

[dissentowner]

Really if you are mostly a small skilled group of forwards and your coach is telling you to just dump the puck in and then defend while generating no offense at all would you give a crap? Skilled players like to have the puck, when your coach wants you to give possession away every rush you start not caring and who can blame them? I don't.

[GioforPM]

Really if you are mostly a small skilled group of forwards and your coach is telling you to just dump the puck in and then defend while generating no offense at all would you give a crap? Skilled players like to have the puck, when your coach wants you to give possession away every rush you start not caring and who can blame them? I don't.

Ward is not coaching dump and chase.

[Royle9]

Ward is not coaching dump and chase.

He’s not coaching any real system, at least that’s what the product on the ice would say. He’s not making adjustments during the game, he’s not shortening the bench when behind. He’s not even putting the best forwards on the ice when we need a goal and down with 3 mins left.

He’s not fit to be a head coach plain and simple.
He hasn’t lost the room because he never had it to begin with.

Get a real coach before we rank any further.
Also a fan of changing the core of this team, but with a draft in doubt I don’t see them blowing anything up.

[rooster]

Calgary sports media has always been pretty soft.

Yes they are. Especially Steinburg. The only one who will call out anything is Eric Francis and then all the keyboard wimps attack him incessantly.

[rooster]

Geoff Ward = Rich Preston 2.0

[Pipty]

These back to back games against the same team will expose one of our problems this year with being outcoached, almost like a mini playoff series. Tre finally solves our goaltending problems but we continue to go down the path of ####ty coaching. Our last decent one was probably Hartley for one year he was able to get the team to overpeform. Sutter was probably our only good coach since 2000.

[TheSquatch]

He’s not coaching any real system, at least that’s what the product on the ice would say. He’s not making adjustments during the game, he’s not shortening the bench when behind. He’s not even putting the best forwards on the ice when we need a goal and down with 3 mins left.

He’s not fit to be a head coach plain and simple.
He hasn’t lost the room because he never had it to begin with.

Get a real coach before we rank any further.
Also a fan of changing the core of this team, but with a draft in doubt I don’t see them blowing anything up.

This. I see no system, and what systemic stuff I do see, I see over and over with very little adaption.

Put it another way, teams know how to beat the Flames - clog up the neutral zone and you'll just kill the Flames breakout every time, and nothing will be done to combat it.

Look at the power play. How many times did the drop to Gaudreau, who then skates up to the line where 4 guys are standing still (you need someone skating with the carrier and someone skating behind the carrier so he has some options) work? It didn't work. Not once actually. They did it 9 times though, because that's what they've been told to do. No in game adjustment, no "Okay let's add THIS into the mix." It's ridiculous. That's a glaring example, and firmly on the special teams coach, but the rest of the play looks the same.

Watch that Montreal Toronto game last night, both teams exit the zone so fast and so trouble-free compared to the Flames. Flames hack and whack and try to make a D to D pass under pressure. Toronto and Montreal take the puck with speed and carry it north, and lanes open up. Flames looked last night like they were under pressure the whole time in their own end, like they just couldn't get and keep clean possession. How tiring is that for the players? Something's systemically wrong with what they are trying to do.

[dissentowner]

Ward is not coaching dump and chase.

Ok I see. So everybody sees this but you right? Even Ward said in an interview they need to get pucks in deep and be the first on them. If you don't think the Flames are playing dump and chase you either know jack squat about hockey or you are just trying to be argumentative. It is so ridiculously obvious it is like you arguing this is HF and not CP despite the absolute obvious difference in every way.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Here's why I think Geoff Ward is terrible coach and needs to go.

Preparation - This is a consistent problem for this team since he's taken over. The team consistently plays like crap in the first period. They rarely appear ready to play. They rarely look like they have an idea what the opposition is going to throw at them or how to exploit the weaknesses of the system they are going to face. This is the responsibility of the coaching staff, to prepare the team and inform them of what tendencies the opposition will rely upon and best strategies to defeat those systems. The consistent poor performances in the first period and the inability to attack out of the gate is clearly on the coaching staff, and the lack of preparation of the team.

Motivation - Much of motivation is internal and driven from within each player. Coaches are there to help players self-motivate. Whether that is through goal setting, positive affirmation, or visualization exercises, coaches play a big role in helping players keep motivated, especially when they are struggling. When motivation fails so does confidence. A poorly motivated player or team is unlikely to reach and maintain any level of confidence and then success. The lack of consistent play to open games is a sign of lack of confidence and motivation. While the players do shoulder much of the burden when it comes to motivation, preparation and coaching sessions greatly impact this area and are easy to identify as systemic weaknesses when all players suffer the same challenges.

Team/social identity - Coaches are responsible for team and social identity of the collective and building the team up so they will play for each other. Strong teams leverage the strengths of all performers and then shelter each other's weaknesses. Coaches should build systems that fit the talent on the team, not try and implement systems beyond the performance level of the talent available. This is not happening. This team does not seem like a "team" but more a collective of individuals, which is a coaching problem. These guys need to learn to play for each other if they ever want to taste some success. Tkachuk is right that these guys need to rally around each other and fight for each other like you would for a family member. The team is lacking that identity because the players are not being deployed to their strengths to build and maintain that team identity. The coaches are so entrenched in what they know and believe they are not even bothering to look at what resources they have to work with and building a systemic approach that will lead each player to success.

Systems - As stated above coaches define and implement the systems. These should be done to leverage the talent available and match the strengths and abilities of the players. This is where Ward and company fall on their faces. This team has players that excel off the rush and can transition the puck quickly when given opportunity. But the systems in place restrict the creativity and fast break mentality so many of the players excel at. Since taking over this team has adopted a move the puck backwards mentality. They no longer press the puck forward trying to get the puck to the net, they instead move the puck backwards to the defensemen and start the rush from deep in their own zone. All this does is allow the opposition to get into their defensive coverage and make the job harder for the Flames as they try to press forward.

A disturbing development is the puck seems to have to be moved back and forth between the defensemen multiple times before a rush can be initiated. The defensemen retreat to their own end and usually behind the goal line to try and setup. This allows the opposition to get in and forecheck the Flames into submission because they only rely on a single breakout strategy. The breakout is off the boards and does nothing to build speed. It is a grinding mucker's system that is not suited to the skill level on the team.

If the Flames get into the offensive zone they spend the time ringing the boards and not generating much. Again, much of the puck movement is above the circles in an area where turnovers happen with regularity and in dangerous situations. The high danger area is not used with any regularity and players rarely try and penetrate it with the puck. The movement is around the perimeter, back to the point, and then hopefully a gap opens up where the players follow the puck into the high danger areas. Instead of pressing the puck to those areas using the forwards, the defensemen drive the play. Just a bad strategy and horrible use of talent available.

Special teams - Coaches are responsible for special teams and making appropriate adjustments. If something isn't working, or the opposition has clued in on what you are doing, go to Plan B. The problem is this team doesn't have a Plan B. They have one trick, and when that trick is figured out they are pretty much done.

Adjustment - Coaches are wholly responsible for in game adjustments. That is why they are there. If they are not going to "coach" and make the appropriate adjustments that leads to success, why the hell are they there?

Lineup assignments - This is all on the coaches and primarily Geoff Ward. He needs to find the secret sauce and make it work. But he has no clue. He comes up with his game plan, assigns players, and then just rolls the lines.

Decision making - This is Ward's greatest weakness. His decision making of when to play certain lines is insanely bad. A goal is scored, time to throw out your worst and slowest line. Have last change and the opposition put out their best line, respond with your slowest group of five players. Have an opportunity to leverage a man advantage, send out one of your least skilled players. There are players that should be getting eight minutes a night, yet they seem to get more than their fair share of ice time. That is on Ward and no one else. His deployment of talent is atrocious.

If a coach is bad at one of these things you can accept that. But when a coach is not good at all of these things he is the wrong fit for this level. Geoff Ward is a really nice guy and probably a coach the players love to play for. But his approach and systems are not at the NHL level. This team would be so much better if they had a coach who would coach to the talent available instead of making them play a game not suited t their skills. If the Flames want to see an immediate improvement, replace Ward with a coach with a history of winning in the NHL.

[GioforPM]

Ok I see. So everybody sees this but you right? Even Ward said in an interview they need to get pucks in deep and be the first on them. If you don't think the Flames are playing dump and chase you either know jack squat about hockey or you are just trying to be argumentative. It is so ridiculously obvious it is like you arguing this is HF and not CP despite the absolute obvious difference in every way.

It’s a false narrative. If Ward is catching dump and chase they aren’t doing it. They are turning the puck over at the blue line because they don’t dump and chase. And when they do dump it’s because they skate into defenders at the line without help and are left with no option but to chip and chase (different).

[SuperMatt18]

It’s a false narrative. If Ward is catching dump and chase they aren’t doing it. They are turning the puck over at the blue line because they don’t dump and chase. And when they do dump it’s because they skate into defenders at the line without help and are left with no option but to chip and chase (different).

We haven’t had a lot of turnovers at the opposition blueline to be honest.

If we get caught it’s usually because the dump was bad and we went to make a change and the other team has numbers.

It’s very rare for this team to try to gain the zone with possession, or defend our own blueline. We’ve been one of the worst teams at this going back to the start of last season, when the team starting playing a much safer style after getting burned for odd man rushes by Colorado.

https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F fb6ad123-3b9d-4a24-8d92-0a47216761d1_912x865.png

Don’t enter the opposition zone with possession, and do a bad job preventing the opposition of entering our zone with possession...Calgary Flames hockey under Geoff Ward.

[GioforPM]

We haven’t had a lot of turnovers at the opposition blueline to be honest.

If we get caught it’s usually because the dump was bad and we went to make a change and the other team has numbers.

It’s very rare for this team to try to gain the zone with possession, or defend our own blueline. We’ve been one of the worst teams at this going back to the start of last season, when the team starting playing a much safer style after getting burned for odd man rushes by Colorado.

https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F fb6ad123-3b9d-4a24-8d92-0a47216761d1_912x865.png

Don’t enter the opposition zone with possession, and do a bad job preventing the opposition of entering our zone with possession...Calgary Flames hockey under Geoff Ward.

I consider losing the puck because you skate into coverage and have to chip (and the you lose the puck battle) the same as a turnover.

The reason the Backlund line has had success is because Mangiapane and Lucic win their chips. Johnny and Chucky have been losing theirs. Bennett tries to carry through the opposition.

[Erick Estrada]

I consider losing the puck because you skate into coverage and have to chip (and the you lose the puck battle) the same as a turnover.

The reason the Backlund line has had success is because Mangiapane and Lucic win their chips. Johnny and Chucky have been losing theirs. Bennett tries to carry through the opposition.

So in other words this roster isn't a good match for dump and chase. That points to coaching.

[ComixZone]

There’s no grounds to defend the coaching at this stage. It’s been bad during Ward’s entire tenure as head coach.

This in no way excuses the players from being part of the problem - the roster isn’t perfect, but Ward is the single biggest deficiency this team has.

[GioforPM]

So in other words this roster isn't a good match for dump and chase. That points to coaching.

It’s not a good roster for skating in with possession. It’s a good roster for chip and chase if they do it right. There’s no reason why Tkachuk, Johnny, Monahan and Lindholm can’t do it successfully - they’ve all proven they can.

[Lanny_McDonald]

It’s not a good roster for skating in with possession. It’s a good roster for chip and chase if they do it right. There’s no reason why Tkachuk, Johnny, Monahan and Lindholm can’t do it successfully - they’ve all proven they can.

Because chip and chase requires puck support for that to work, and the Flames are not positioned or skating with speed to provide puck support. This is the worst brand of hockey I have seen in the 40 years I’ve been watching Flames hockey. You would have to go back to Atlanta to find worse.

[Erick Estrada]

It’s not a good roster for skating in with possession. It’s a good roster for chip and chase if they do it right. There’s no reason why Tkachuk, Johnny, Monahan and Lindholm can’t do it successfully - they’ve all proven they can.

Chip and chase is not a recipe for success when your top forwards are either small (Johnny Gaudreau, Dube, Mangiapane) or slow (Monahan, Tkachuk). This style of hockey is conservative, outdated and doesn't fit with the build of this roster.

[442scotty]

So in other words this roster isn't a good match for dump and chase. That points to coaching.

This roster doesn’t seem to be a good match for anything.

:bag:

[GioforPM]

Chip and chase is not a recipe for success when your top forwards are either small (Johnny Gaudreau, Dube, Mangiapane) or slow (Monahan, Tkachuk). This style of hockey is conservative, outdated and doesn't fit with the build of this roster.

Tampa bay plays dump and chase. It didn’t seem outdated last year.

[Igottago]

My feeling is the team will get exactly what they've invested in from the coaching. The team is talented enough to get wins that keep them competitive enough in the standings but they won't be pushed to elevate to another level. There will be several players meetings, statements that the compete level is off and needs to be fixed. Then they'll win a few on the back of Markstrom. Geoff Ward is okay. He's not terrible but not great. That's what the results will be. If this team was supposed to be pushing towards contender status the coaching hire should have been fitting of that. If a weak Canucks team can out hustle them for the majority of two games now, the playoffs aren't gonna be any easier.

[Kovaz]

I don't think "dump and chase" is a strategy that any coach intentionally uses. It's plan B when you can't generate a controlled zone entry. What I have noticed is we do a terrible job of generating speed in transition, which is a different problem. Our system seems to be, from my viewing, very conservative in how we break out. All five forwards stay in the defensive zone until we have 100% control of the puck, and then we try to generate speed from a standstill. Very few players can pick up the puck standing still and turn that into possession in the offensive zone; hence a lot of dump and chase.

[SuperMatt18]

Great article on how the Flames coaching staff and system in contributing to their failure

https://jmalloryhockey.substack.com/p/the-flames-have-been-doused-cgy-needs

[Ashasx]

We haven’t had a lot of turnovers at the opposition blueline to be honest.

If we get caught it’s usually because the dump was bad and we went to make a change and the other team has numbers.

It’s very rare for this team to try to gain the zone with possession, or defend our own blueline. We’ve been one of the worst teams at this going back to the start of last season, when the team starting playing a much safer style after getting burned for odd man rushes by Colorado.

https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F fb6ad123-3b9d-4a24-8d92-0a47216761d1_912x865.png

Don’t enter the opposition zone with possession, and do a bad job preventing the opposition of entering our zone with possession...Calgary Flames hockey under Geoff Ward.

This is pretty unbelievable. This is a team that, in order to find success, needs to own north and south hockey and creating opportunities off the rush.

The fact that this is the worst team at obtaining the zone and preventing their opponent says terrible things about Ward.

[GranteedEV]

Great article on how the Flames coaching staff and system in contributing to their failure

https://jmalloryhockey.substack.com/p/the-flames-have-been-doused-cgy-needs


Nothing in that article contradicts what I watched last night.

bUt wHy cAnT tHEy jUSt mAKe a 5-fOoT-pAsS :rolleyes:

[mrdonkey]

https://i.ibb.co/Pm4gYm1/Studio-Project.jpg

[SuperMatt18]

This is pretty unbelievable. This is a team that, in order to find success, needs to own north and south hockey and creating opportunities off the rush.

The fact that this is the worst team at obtaining the zone and preventing their opponent says terrible things about Ward.

Nothing in that article contradicts what I watched last night.

bUt wHy cAnT tHEy jUSt mAKe a 5-fOoT-pAsS :rolleyes:

The players aren’t free from blame but to think that the coaching staff isn’t contributing to the problems is ridiculous.

IMO Ward is worse than Gulutzan was from a system perspective, and is worse from a bench management point of view too.

Ward has the best roster available to him compared to any of the Flames previous coaches with this core, and IMO he’s getting the least out of them. He’s only been more successful because he gotten the best goaltending of any of the four coaches.

[Johnhitbox]

Before you say, it's because of the pandemic year. I just want to ask the question, why hasn't anything been done from either the GM, or the owners for thr past couple seasons? We've seen this team fall into a pretty big decline since just before the all star break of 2019.

Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

[Infinit47]

I consider losing the puck because you skate into coverage and have to chip (and the you lose the puck battle) the same as a turnover.

The reason the Backlund line has had success is because Mangiapane and Lucic win their chips. Johnny and Chucky have been losing theirs. Bennett tries to carry through the opposition.

So Maybe Ward should try to help Gaudreau, Chucky and Bennett with a system better suited to their skills? Gaudreau has never had success as a chip and chase player, but he has had success scoring off the rush and carrying the puck into the zone.

It seems the only time Ward wants Gaudreau to carry the puck into the zone is on the PP when 4 players are lined up and are ready.

He could also try breaking up Gaudreau/Monahan and Tkachuk/Lindholm. Or move Lindholm to the top line and reunite Backlund and Tkachuk.

Instead he shuffles 4th line plugs along the wings.

[Burning Beard]

So Maybe Ward should try to help Gaudreau, Chucky and Bennett with a system better suited to their skills? Gaudreau has never had success as a chip and chase player, but he has had success scoring off the rush and carrying the puck into the zone.

It seems the only time Ward wants Gaudreau to carry the puck into the zone is on the PP when 4 players are lined up and are ready.

He could also try breaking up Gaudreau/Monahan and Tkachuk/Lindholm. Or move Lindholm to the top line and reunite Backlund and Tkachuk.

Instead he shuffles 4th line plugs along the wings.

Fully agree. Make the system one that suits your best players.

We finally get out of the bargain bin for a goalie but have the ultimate Dollarama coach. It's so frustrating.

[Infinit47]

The players aren’t free from blame but to think that the coaching staff isn’t contributing to the problems is ridiculous.

IMO Ward is worse than Gulutzan was from a system perspective, and is worse from a bench management point of view too.

Ward has the best roster available to him compared to any of the Flames previous coaches with this core, and IMO he’s getting the least out of them. He’s only been more successful because he gotten the best goaltending of any of the four coaches.

I mean, this makes total sense. Ward is not a head coach. He was brought on from NJ to run the power play, not design 5v5 systems or run the bench. How many people are successful learning on the job at the NHL level?

[SuperMatt18]

Before you say, it's because of the pandemic year. I just want to ask the question, why hasn't anything been done from either the GM, or the owners for thr past couple seasons? We've seen this team fall into a pretty big decline since just before the all star break of 2019.

Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

Well the GM did bring in Markstrom and Tanev so that’s not nothing.

I think trades in the NHL are probably a lot harder than we think to make, especially hockey trades.

There is what 2 maybe 3 big hockey trades a season in the NHL?

[redforever]

Really if you are mostly a small skilled group of forwards and your coach is telling you to just dump the puck in and then defend while generating no offense at all would you give a crap? Skilled players like to have the puck, when your coach wants you to give possession away every rush you start not caring and who can blame them? I don't.

This a thousand times over.

I really feel that if the players were just allowed to go out there and play shinny hockey, they would have more success.

[The Original FFIV]

Well the GM did bring in Markstrom and Tanev so that’s not nothing.

I think trades in the NHL are probably a lot harder than we think to make, especially hockey trades.

There is what 2 maybe 3 big hockey trades a season in the NHL?

I hear this a lot, yet there are other teams able to make deals. Why are we unable to?

I believe the answer is that the book is out on our core. Soft as butter and low compete level. As such, other gms aren’t willing to surrender the right kind of assets to obtain them, resulting in low ball offers. So Treliving has to keep doubling down on them hoping that something clicks. I hope I’m wrong, but for the life of me I can’t comprehend why he brought the same group back with their track record.

It seems like we are buying time until players like Pelletier and Zary and other draftees with high gaf meters are ready. What we have now isn’t the answer, no matter who is coaching the team.

[GioforPM]

So Maybe Ward should try to help Gaudreau, Chucky and Bennett with a system better suited to their skills? Gaudreau has never had success as a chip and chase player, but he has had success scoring off the rush and carrying the puck into the zone.

It seems the only time Ward wants Gaudreau to carry the puck into the zone is on the PP when 4 players are lined up and are ready.

He could also try breaking up Gaudreau/Monahan and Tkachuk/Lindholm. Or move Lindholm to the top line and reunite Backlund and Tkachuk.

Instead he shuffles 4th line plugs along the wings.

He could try those things all right. But of course, that ignores that Monahan and Gaudreau got off to a hot start, and so did Tkachuk and Lindholm, and ignores the success of Backlund’s current line mates. But you are wrong about what he wants Gaudreau to do, as evidenced by the fact Johnny constantly carries the puck into the zone (and then loses it).

The issue here is that everyone is so invested in these players, and therefore they have to invent a universe where, if only the coach would use some imaginary “system” which isn’t being coached now, they would suddenly have different results than the past 6 years.

[Johnhitbox]

Well the GM did bring in Markstrom and Tanev so that’s not nothing.



I think trades in the NHL are probably a lot harder than we think to make, especially hockey trades.



There is what 2 maybe 3 big hockey trades a season in the NHL?A good Gm would see past the fact that goaltending wasn't the main problem. He's maid plenty of moves on the defense as well.

Sent from my SM-N986W using Tapatalk

[GioforPM]

I hear this a lot, yet there are other teams able to make deals. Why are we unable to?

I believe the answer is that the book is out on our core. Soft as butter and low compete level. As such, other gms aren’t willing to surrender the right kind of assets to obtain them, resulting in low ball offers. So Treliving has to keep doubling down on them hoping that something clicks. I hope I’m wrong, but for the life of me I can’t comprehend why he brought the same group back with their track record.

It seems like we are buying time until players like Pelletier and Zary and other draftees with high gaf meters are ready. What we have now isn’t the answer, no matter who is coaching the team.

What other single GM has made more big deals than Treliving?

[Yamer]

What other single GM has made more big deals than Treliving?

The only others that jump to mind are Kekalainen and maybe Poile.

[Toonage]

Bergevin too I suppose

[SuperMatt18]

I hear this a lot, yet there are other teams able to make deals. Why are we unable to?

I believe the answer is that the book is out on our core. Soft as butter and low compete level. As such, other gms aren’t willing to surrender the right kind of assets to obtain them, resulting in low ball offers. So Treliving has to keep doubling down on them hoping that something clicks. I hope I’m wrong, but for the life of me I can’t comprehend why he brought the same group back with their track record.


What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.

[Red]

What other single GM has made more big deals than Treliving?

Treliving likes to make deals. I remember when Phoenix was making a lot of trades back in the day, wasn't Brad the AGM? Team never improved though.

So maybe this is a guy that just really likes to keep busy, all these inquires that we hear about would suggest that.

But we don't need a GM that will make a deal, we need one that will make the right deal. This team needs a better top line. Has for years, really.

[GioforPM]

The only others that jump to mind are Kekalainen and maybe Poile.

I think that’s recency bias. Kekalainen, aside from the Laine deal, has acquired Dzingel and Duchene as rentals in 2019 and did an RFA rights deal for Domi (but traded the better player away). If you go back 4 years you can get to his Panarin trade, which didn’t work out at all.

[Red]

What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.

Brad's been here 7 years and your 3 years includes a covid year, which may be a factor too. I think he had a lot of opportunities.

[GioforPM]

Treliving has tried to do something about the top line but he’s gone the wrong way with Neal and Brouwer, thinking they needed size and in close hands. But let’s face it, Johnny and Monahan are hard guys to play with. You need a speedy, gritty, defensive minded guy who also has good offensive chops. Lindholm was the answer for a while.

I’d like to see Ward break them up. It’s a really hard thing to do and I think you’d have to be ready for a slump while they figured out playing without each other.

[Yamer]

I think that’s recency bias. Kekalainen, aside from the Laine deal, has acquired Dzingel and Duchene as rentals in 2019 and did an RFA rights deal for Domi (but traded the better player away). If you go back 4 years you can get to his Panarin trade, which didn’t work out at all.

Ok, by that standard what has Treliving done besides the biggie with Carolina?

[Red]

Treliving has tried to do something about the top line but he’s gone the wrong way with Neal and Brouwer, thinking they needed size and in close hands. But let’s face it, Johnny and Monahan are hard guys to play with. You need a speedy, gritty, defensive minded guy who also has good offensive chops. Lindholm was the answer for a while.

I’d like to see Ward break them up. It’s a really hard thing to do and I think you’d have to be ready for a slump while they figured out playing without each other.

They need size and hands, just not from the bargain bin. Although Neal was no bargain.

[GioforPM]

They need size and hands, just not from the bargain bin. Although Neal was no bargain.

Neal signing is my biggest complaint about Treliving. On paper Neal looked like the answer but a little bit of due diligence (which even internet fans can do) would have raised questions.

And it was a misread on the direction of the NHL. Size and hands, sure, but nowadays you really have to be able to skate.

[kyuss275]

What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.


Kadri refusing the trade was huge. Was a perfect type of player that this team needed.

[The Original FFIV]

What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.

This year. Domi for Anderson

Last year. Can include subban and zucker.

Year before. O’Reilly, kessel, patches, Erik karlsson

Not saying we should have been in on every deal, but core pieces are moveable

We should (and hope we were) on the same deal that Carolina got for Faulk. We end up with zip for Brodie (yes, tried with kadri but getting edmunson and bokk beats nothing). Who knows maybe stl didn’t want Brodie.

Last year was a debacle. Opens up room with trading frolik then uses space to trade for two bottom pair d. Tofolli is right there and would have filled an organizational need. Passes that over for depth bottom pair d.

But I digress. Trades can be made (yes, this year is different with expansion and Covid) but we either have players people don’t want or overvalue our players relative to what other teams are willing to pay.

[SuperMatt18]

We haven’t had a lot of turnovers at the opposition blueline to be honest.

If we get caught it’s usually because the dump was bad and we went to make a change and the other team has numbers.

It’s very rare for this team to try to gain the zone with possession, or defend our own blueline. We’ve been one of the worst teams at this going back to the start of last season, when the team starting playing a much safer style after getting burned for odd man rushes by Colorado.

https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F fb6ad123-3b9d-4a24-8d92-0a47216761d1_912x865.png

Don’t enter the opposition zone with possession, and do a bad job preventing the opposition of entering our zone with possession...Calgary Flames hockey under Geoff Ward.

Coming back to this for a second after doing a little more digging.

Zone Entries:

18-19:
Total Controlled Entry: 54% (4th Best)

19-20:
Total Controlled Entry: 46% (7th worst)

That's a huge change in one year going from 4th best to 7th worst in the league in that time frame. In terms of our comparison that moves us from Rush-Based teams to a Forecheck based team.

IMO that's all system and coaching because the forward group is mostly the same.

Zone Entry Defense

19-20:
Controlled Zone Entry Against: 63% (2nd worst in the NHL - Don't have the team stat here for 18-19 but looking at the individual dmen and all of them were much better at preventing zone entries in 18-19 vs 19-20)

Same roster for the most part, same coaching staff but the team changed systems after the defeat to Colorado. It'ls like they had PTSD after being burned for so many odd man rushes that series.

The team started playing more "safe" hockey with more dump ins, taking less chances at the opposition blue line, and stepping up less to create fewer turn overs at our own blueline. Boring hockey that my guess is this group just hates playing.

Corey Sznajder has a tableau that shows a lot of this and it's crazy how much changed between the two seasons and to me it's about the systems.
https://public.tableau.com/profile/corey.sznajder#!/

This year. Domi for Anderson

Last year. Can include subban and zucker.

Year before. O’Reilly, kessel, patches, Erik karlsson

Not saying we should have been in on every deal, but core pieces are moveable

We should (and hope we were) on the same deal that Carolina got for Faulk. We end up with zip for Brodie (yes, tried with kadri but getting edmunson and bokk beats nothing). Who knows maybe stl didn’t want Brodie.

Last year was a debacle. Opens up room with trading frolik then uses space to trade for two bottom pair d. Tofolli is right there and would have filled an organizational need. Passes that over for depth bottom pair d.

But I digress. Trades can be made (yes, this year is different with expansion and Covid) but we either have players people don’t want or overvalue our players relative to what other teams are willing to pay.

Agree that not trading Brodie and Hamonic is the biggest mistake, letting them walk for nothing hurts a lot. But I don't really see what that has to do with potential Gaudreau or Monahan trades, they aren't really comparable.

I'm happy we didn't trade for Anderson, great start to the year but want no part of that contract or potentially needing to move Monahan to get him.
Subban is washed up and has been terrible in New Jersey, he was moved as a cap dump.
Zucker would have been a nice fit but sounds like there was an issue with a potential trade for him we were in on too.
Kessel...yuck and also moved as a pure cap dump to Arizona.
Patches...Overpayment by Vegas and I'd take Suzuki & Tatar every day of the week.
Erik Karlsson...That trade and subsequent contract is going to set back the San Jose Sharks decades. I hope the Flames can move Gaudreau or Monahan when they are 1 year from UFA to anything close to the return Ottawa got there.

[Red]

Neal signing is my biggest complaint about Treliving. On paper Neal looked like the answer but a little bit of due diligence (which even internet fans can do) would have raised questions.

And it was a misread on the direction of the NHL. Size and hands, sure, but nowadays you really have to be able to skate.

I loved the Neal signing. But I didnt really watch the guy before, I just looked at his stats.
And yes, skating. Thus me harping on #23. And #19 for that matter. The Flames are going nowhere when these two are your top players.

[Manhattanboy]

I loved the Neal signing. But I didnt really watch the guy before, I just looked at his stats.
And yes, skating. Thus me harping on #23. And #19 for that matter. The Flames are going nowhere when these two are your top players.

Would you have traded Chucky for PLD?

I think the Flames are badly missing Burke within their management ranks.

[Red]

Would you have traded Chucky for PLD?

I think the Flames are badly missing Burke within their management ranks.

Tough call, but there probably would be a deal there. Would have to check with other teams first to gage interest and get a feel for MT's value.
I hold an unpopular opinion of Chucky. I think the Flames are better off using him in a big trade. For reason like his qualifying salary which is a massive overpay, concerns about his future in calgary/canada but mostly his game. I feel like he won't age well. The game is getting faster every day.

[Infinit47]

He could try those things all right. But of course, that ignores that Monahan and Gaudreau got off to a hot start, and so did Tkachuk and Lindholm, and ignores the success of Backlund’s current line mates. But you are wrong about what he wants Gaudreau to do, as evidenced by the fact Johnny constantly carries the puck into the zone (and then loses it).

The issue here is that everyone is so invested in these players, and therefore they have to invent a universe where, if only the coach would use some imaginary “system” which isn’t being coached now, they would suddenly have different results than the past 6 years.

Actually, the issue is we have a head coach, who is actually a PP specialist that fell ass backwards into a head coaching role. Boston and New Jersey didn't seem to broken up about Ward leaving their teams, that should tell you something.

There are tangible examples in this thread of terrible coaching decisions made by Ward, but you chose to ignore them and fall back on the fact 3 bargain bin coaches have flopped with this core.

You get what you pay for, and Ward is very cheap.

[ricosuave]

I can't believe that Ward wasn't given his walking papers after that last playoff debaucle against Dallas.

It's obvious to everyone except Tre and possibly the ownership group that Ward isnt very good