Jets sign Bryan Little to extension (6 yrs, $5.291 mil AAV)

[sureLoss]

perhaps another comparable for Backlund

Jamie Thomas @JamieThomasTV
First day of camp for #NHLJets. Hearing that team has signed C Bryan Little to a multi year extension. More to come. #NHL @NHLJets

Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Good work @JamieThomasTV. 6 year extension for Little. $5.291 mil aav.

[Erick Estrada]

This is a fair contract although I'm not a fan of the term as I think he's going to be overpaid badly in on the back half of the deal. He and Backlund are very close in age Little has played considerably more games and has produced at a higher level. This contract is great for the Flames as it's hard to argue Backlund deserves more or even the same money as Little.

[J79]

It's a Little more than I expected.

[Geeoff]

I like the AAV but that contract seems too long

[Oling_Roachinen]

When healthy he's been a 65 point player, brings him to 36, but that's not an AAV you'll see any 65 point defensively sound centers making. Should be a steal of a contract.

[Vinny01]

Is this more, less, or what we should expect for Backlund?

[Erick Estrada]

Is this more, less, or what we should expect for Backlund?

More I would say. Little has played more and produced at a higher level.

[rodszta]

Backlund should get around that.

[ricardodw]

Little gets a 12.5% raise. 591,000 / year.

Backlund getting a the same 591k raise would give put him just under 4.2 and a 16% raise.

Little has been a #1C for his whole career until Schiefele took over 2 seasons ago.

after being an under 50% faceoff guy for his first 8 years Little went 51% and then 56% last year.

Last year he had .8 ppg last year.

as the #2C on the Jets he is going to get some points with Laine or Wheeler as his RW and Perrrault or Connor as his LW.

The Jets locking him up early takes away the risk of him coming out of the gate and being a top 20 scorer.

His career ppg is .64

Backlund career best season is .65 ppg (career ppg .49)


Looks like Little took a discount to play in Winnipeg.

[Textcritic]

...Looks like Little took a discount to play in Winnipeg.


I think the term has a lot to do with the lower cap hit.

[ricardodw]

I think the term has a lot to do with the lower cap hit.

What would the UFA rate be for a 60 pt centre?

Little would have the same or better chance of putting up 60 pts this season as does Backlund.

Would 6 years would be too long of a term for Backlund?

Little is 16 months older than Backlund. Both have come back strong from injuries.

[Samonadreau]

Puts Backlund in around 6x4.9 or 5x5.2

[calgaryblood]

nm

[Samonadreau]

nm

Hes a center

[ricardodw]

In the Jets organization they have no Bennett equivalent.

In 2-3 years there would be a better than 50-50 chance that Bennett is ahead of Backlund on the depth chart.

In Winnipeg Lowry, Petan, Roslovic do not have the same high end potential as Bennett.

ie Little is more valuable to the Jets than Backlund is to the Flames. The Jets don't have the contingency of needing 5-6M for another Centre.

[Samonadreau]

In the Jets organization they have no Bennett equivalent.

In 2-3 years there would be a better than 50-50 chance that Bennett is ahead of Backlund on the depth chart.

In Winnipeg Lowry, Petan, Roslovic do not have the same high end potential as Bennett.

ie Little is more valuable to the Jets than Backlund is to the Flames. The Jets don't have the contingency of needing 5-6M for another Centre.

So in 3 years if Bennet hits those levels and you have another capable 3rd line center you can make a trade. RIght now the flames need Backlund. Are you saying Backlund doesnt deserve to get paid 5M or are you saying we dont need him if he wants 5M? Im confused.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I think the term has a lot to do with the lower cap hit.
I'd still say it's quite the discount. There's a lot of players who have been as productive, or much less so, than Little and have signed contracts that bring them until their mid-to-late 30's.

Spezza signed a 7.5M contract as a "65 point" center that brings him to 35.

Kesler has a contract that brings him to 37, 6 years total, and he was a "50 point" player when he signed it. His cap hit is nearly 7M. He's better defensively, and probably more of an impact player, but he's absolutely a comparable.

Dubinsky's going to be 35 by the time his contract ends and he's making 5.85M. He was a "50 point" player with Columbus when he signed that.

Backes put up 45 points the season before he signed his 6M/year contract that brings him to 37.

Nielsen was a "50 point" player and his 6 year contract brings him to 38. No doubt in my mind that Nielsen is the lesser player today and certainly will be by the end of their respective contracts. He's making the same as Little.

Little's underrated, maybe because of his injuries, but over the last four years he's been a 65 point player (pro-rated) while playing both first line and more recent second line duties. A 65 point defensively sound player is going to be making a lot more than 5.2M on the open UFA market.

[Textcritic]

What would the UFA rate be for a 60 pt centre?

Little would have the same or better chance of putting up 60 pts this season as does Backlund.
This is where I think this deal makes the most sense: Little's cap hit looks great for the first three years of this deal, but +$5 m starts to look a little pricey for a +33-year-old second line centre. I do think this is a good deal, and it appears the Jets did get a bit of a discount—if anything, this looks great for the Flames negotiation with Backlund.

Would 6 years would be too long of a term for Backlund?

Little is 16 months older than Backlund. Both have come back strong from injuries.
I would say yes, six years is not ideal. My preference would be a four year deal for Backlund, but I suspect that is not happening. Five years is okay, and with this contract I expect that to be a less expensive deal than Little's. All in all this pleases me.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

To people saying Backlund should get less than this, would you trade Backlund for Little straight up? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Oling_Roachinen]

To people saying Backlund should get less than this, would you trade Backlund for Little straight up? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

I would, yes. Assuming the same contract, Little is the better player.

[GreenLantern2814]

To people saying Backlund should get less than this, would you trade Backlund for Little straight up? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Well no, but the Flames have elite centre depth. If each was my team's best center, I think I might trade Backlund to get Little.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

To people saying Backlund should get less than this, would you trade Backlund for Little straight up? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Really? Little is severely underrated.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well no, but the Flames have elite centre depth. If each was my team's best center, I think I might trade Backlund to get Little.
Pfff, no they don't. They have a decent #1 center, and a really high end two way second line center. Crosby / Malkin territory, this ain't.

And if you had the choice between those two as your best pivot, you'd wait for your lottery pick and improve your team, because that's just sad.
Really? Little is severely underrated.
I think so too. Just not as much as Backlund is. Backlund is an great defensive center who can also put up somewhere in the vicinity of 50 points. If Patrice Bergeron wasn't a thing, he'd be a threat for the Selke. It's hard to think of a better guy to have in the #2 spot, if you're not lucky enough to hit the jackpot in the draft or in trade (seriously, Jim Nill, wtf).

[Oling_Roachinen]

It's hard to think of a better guy to have in the #2 spot

I would say a defensively responsible 30-35-65 center who can win face-offs would be. If healthy, that's what Little's been projected to be for a bit now.

Little's point-per-game over the last couple years is better than Bergeron's, and Monahan's, and Toew's, and Kesler's. He's right there with O'Reilly, Kopitar, Thornton and Carter at ~0.80.

His faceoff percentage has been top tier for the last 2 seasons, he can kill penalties and contribute on the powerplay. He's getting to be ideal all-around 'secondary' player.

At worst he's been a weaker first line center since the Thrashers became the Jets. But as a second line center, or on the wing, he's one of the best.

His injuries have underrated him, and as a smaller player (I guess I should say Little player...) it's a bit of a concern, but they haven't been reoccurring, they are all pretty different. A full season of him playing like last year and this contract would look like an absolute steal when compared to his peers.

[Enoch Root]

Really? Little is severely underrated.

So is Backlund.

I wouldn't trade Backlund straight up either. Nonetheless, this is a good contract for Little and I would be happy to give Backlund the same deal.

Also, I expect Backlund will maintain his value and productivity longer than Little will, as they age.

[Textcritic]

Pfff, no they don't. They have a decent #1 center, and a really high end two way second line center. Crosby / Malkin territory, this ain't.
Well, duh—the Flames do not have the League's best 1–2 punch down the middle. There is no team that can roll out anything akin to Crosby/Malkin, but that does not detract from the solid depth the Flames have down the middle.

And if you had the choice between those two as your best pivot, you'd wait for your lottery pick and improve your team, because that's just sad.
This is pure hyperbole and I suspect it stems from your tendency to criminally under-rate Sean Monahan.

I think so too. Just not as much as Backlund is. Backlund is an great defensive center who can also put up somewhere in the vicinity of 50 points. If Patrice Bergeron wasn't a thing, he'd be a threat for the Selke. It's hard to think of a better guy to have in the #2 spot, if you're not lucky enough to hit the jackpot in the draft or in trade (seriously, Jim Nill, wtf).
I agree, but I will not be the least but surprised to see a lower cap-hit for Backlund on a similar contract by simple virtue of the fact that he does not have the same offensive numbers as Little on his resumé. Teams still pay a premium for high scoring totals with less regard for how or why players arrive at them.

[ricardodw]

So in 3 years if Bennet hits those levels and you have another capable 3rd line center you can make a trade. RIght now the flames need Backlund. Are you saying Backlund doesnt deserve to get paid 5M or are you saying we dont need him if he wants 5M? Im confused.

If Bennett moves past Backlund on the depth charts and becomes a 60-80 pt centre Backlund would be a fantastic 3C, but to expect any more than 30-40 pts from a 3C is not reasonable.

Similarly if Roslovic or Petan do much better than forecast and replace Little as 2C and Little puts up 30 pt seasons he will not be tradedable at 5.3M /yr.

Because of the higher top end of Bennett I would suggest the Flames sign Backlund for 3 years at a higher rate. 3x6 ?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Because of the higher top end of Bennett I would suggest the Flames sign Backlund for 3 years at a higher rate. 3x6 ?

I don't really see that working for anyone. Backlund will be 29 when his next contract kicks in, he's primed for a retirement contract that brings him to his mid thirties. That's a hard type of contract to pass up. There's too much risk with injury or his play faltering, that he could be looking at a huge paycut when he signs his next contract at 32.

Lucic, Okposo, Backes, Eriksson, Ladd, Steen, Oshie there's a lot of 50-60 point players making in that 6M range but seeing them reach their 35+ birthday. I don't see a reason why Backlund doesn't look at a 6 or 7 year contract at 5.5M+ as well if he has another good season. They hand them out like candy nowadays.

And with the Flames, they can't afford a potential 3C at 6M if things do go well for them. Probably better to either stick with Backlund, and get a lower cap-hit while the window is open.

[robaur]

Cmon guys. Little > Backlund.

And I'm the biggest Backlund fan.

[Textcritic]

If Bennett moves past Backlund on the depth charts and becomes a 60-80 pt centre Backlund would be a fantastic 3C, but to expect any more than 30-40 pts from a 3C is not reasonable.

Similarly if Roslovic or Petan do much better than forecast and replace Little as 2C and Little puts up 30 pt seasons he will not be tradedable at 5.3M /yr.

Because of the higher top end of Bennett I would suggest the Flames sign Backlund for 3 years at a higher rate. 3x6 ?
It would be very difficult to get Backlund back on a three-year term. The reason I said I would be thrilled with four years is because I don't really see any realistic scenario in which he signs for any less than five years.

As to the bolded portion I would accept this as true under normal conditions, but I would be surprised to see Gulutzan ice a lineup this year with much disparity in ice time between the top three lines. If the Bennett line and the Backlund line end up splitting time fairly evenly as I suspect they will, then I most definitely see potential for Backlund to continue to be a regular +40-point player.

[ricardodw]

I don't really see that working for anyone. Backlund will be 29 when his next contract kicks in, he's primed for a retirement contract that brings him to his mid thirties. That's a hard type of contract to pass up. There's too much risk with injury or his play faltering, that he could be looking at a huge paycut when he signs his next contract at 32.

Lucic, Okposo, Backes, Eriksson, Ladd, Steen, Oshie there's a lot of 50-60 point players making in that 6M range but seeing them reach their 35+ birthday. I don't see a reason why Backlund doesn't look at a 6 or 7 year contract at 5.5M+ as well if he has another good season. They hand them out like candy nowadays.

And with the Flames, they can't afford a potential 3C at 6M if things do go well for them. Probably better to either stick with Backlund, and get a lower cap-hit while the window is open.

If Bennett is #2 in 2019-20 The Flames can't afford a #3C at 5-5.5M for the last 5 years of his contract either.

I agree that a 3 year deal doesn't work for Backlund..... but it works for the Flames...

[Textcritic]

If Bennett is #2 in 2019-20 The Flames can't afford a #3C at 5-5.5M for the last 5 years of his contract either...
Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group? Pittsburgh paid $20.1 m for their top three the past two years; Edmonton is paying at least $18.5 m for just their top two centres starting next year; Anaheim pays $18.125 m for their top three; Washington will pay $17.5 m this season.

I think the solution is to re-think how lines are deployed and how individual teams distribute their cap costs.

[ricardodw]

Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group? Pittsburgh paid $20.1 m for their top three the past two years; Edmonton is paying at least $18.5 m for just their top two centres starting next year; Anaheim pays $18.125 m for their top three; Washington will pay $17.5 m this season.

I think the solution is to re-think how lines are deployed and how individual teams distribute their cap costs.

lol you are saying the Flames should follow the Oilers model for success!!

[Textcritic]

lol you are saying the Flames should follow the Oilers model for success!!
I most certainly am not. If anything, the Flames are constructed almost entirely antithetically to the "Oilers model." Unlike the Oilers, the Flames DO NOT have +$20.0 m tied up in two players.

I am saying that the way that Gulutzan has the team playing combined with the players who look to be on the roster in three year's time show that having three +$5.0 m centres on the roster is not necessarily a problem. But you did not answer the question: "Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group?"

[the2bears]

lol you are saying the Flames should follow the Oilers model for success!!

I have no clue how you came to this conclusion after reading what you quoted.

[ForeverFlameFan]

To people saying Backlund should get less than this, would you trade Backlund for Little straight up? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Little > Backlund

Defense is a slight edge to Backs, but Little is a better offensive option. Not to mention, the guy could go RW with Monahan and Gaudreau if he had to.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well, duh—the Flames do not have the League's best 1–2 punch down the middle. There is no team that can roll out anything akin to Crosby/Malkin, but that does not detract from the solid depth the Flames have down the middle.
The claim was that they have elite center depth. I think not. Calgary's center depth is, at best, slightly above average.
This is pure hyperbole and I suspect it stems from your tendency to criminally under-rate Sean Monahan.
What the #### are you talking about? How did Monahan get into this? If Backlund or Little are your #1C, you're probably in some trouble. Maybe if you have the best blue line in the league, like Nashville, you could get away with it, or if you ride percentages and good goaltending like Columbus. But it's not a recipe for success.
I would say a defensively responsible 30-35-65 center who can win face-offs would be. If healthy, that's what Little's been projected to be for a bit now.
Little has never hit 65 points in his career, and he's 29. He's also almost never healthy. If you're realistic, you can expect 45-50 points from him on average. Points per game is great, unless you've got a long track record of never playing a full season. So I guess I'll agree with you if he manages to pull together 75+ games per season on this deal, but I doubt that will happen.

And he's not a liability defensively, for sure, but he's also not Backlund. Like I said, I do think Little is underrated, but given the choice between the two, I easily take Backlund.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

lol you are saying the Flames should follow the Oilers model for success!!

Way to demonstrate your complete lack of reading comprehension

[calgaryblood]

I would, yes. Assuming the same contract, Little is the better player.

No he's not.

[Textcritic]

What the #### are you talking about? How did Monahan get into this? If Backlund or Little are your #1C, you're probably in some trouble. Maybe if you have the best blue line in the league, like Nashville, you could get away with it, or if you ride percentages and good goaltending like Columbus. But it's not a recipe for success.
My apologies. I misread the post to which you were responding.

The claim was that they have elite center depth. I think not. Calgary's center depth is, at best, slightly above average.
I do take some issue with this, however. Perhaps it is quibbling, but I would characterize the Flames centre depth as slightly above average at worst. Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre. Round that out with Bennett, Stajan and the addition of Jankowski to that mix and I think that from top to bottom that sets the Flames in very good shape down the middle.

[ricardodw]

My apologies. I misread the post to which you were responding.


I do take some issue with this, however. Perhaps it is quibbling, but I would characterize the Flames centre depth as slightly above average at worst. Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre. Round that out with Bennett, Stajan and the addition of Jankowski to that mix and I think that from top to bottom that sets the Flames in very good shape down the middle.

I really wish I could put you on ignore list or have the discipline to let your posts slide.

I think that you are ranking Monahan/Backlund to the past centres of the Flames and not the rest of the current league. Currently Monahan and Backlund are better than any Flames pair since 1994-95 Niewendyk/Riechel

Western Conference

Would not trade for Monahan /Backlund

Schieffle- Little
Johanssen – Fisher replaced by Bonino with Janrock a top 3C
Toews – Anisimov
Koivu – Staal
Kopitar – Carter
Getzlaff – Kesler- Rackell
Seguin – Spezza
Mackinnon – Duschene
McDavid- Draistl
Pavelski – Couture -Hertl (Thornton)

Might trade for Monahan /Backlund

Statsny – Schenn

Would trade for Mohahan/Backlund

Stephan- Dvorak
Horvat - Sedin
Shipachyov - Cody Eakin


Not that I really need to ask, but where am I wrong?

[Textcritic]

I had to read your post four times, but I think I follow what you are arguing here. As I understand it you are suggesting that I am badly over-rating the Flames' current centre depth, but in what follows you have drawn comparisons between top-two centres for several teams and top-three centres for others (Nashville, Anaheim, SJ, Vegas). Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.



I think that you are ranking Monahan/Backlund to the past centres of the Flames and not the rest of the current league. Currently Monahan and Backlund are better than any Flames pair since 1994-95 Niewendyk/Riechel



Western Conference



Would not trade for Monahan /Backlund



Schieffle- Little

Johanssen – Fisher replaced by Bonino with Janrock a top 3C

Toews – Anisimov

Koivu – Staal

Kopitar – Carter

Getzlaff – Kesler- Rackell

Seguin – Spezza

Mackinnon – Duschene

McDavid- Draistl

Pavelski – Couture -Hertl (Thornton)



Might trade for Monahan /Backlund



Statsny – Schenn



Would trade for Mohahan/Backlund



Stephan- Dvorak

Horvat - Sedin

Shipachyov - Cody Eakin





Not that I really need to ask, but where am I wrong?

Well, for starters, you have a bunch of players lined up at centre where they seldom play centre. I also think you overrate several of these groups when comparing them to the Flames. For example, MacKinnon and Landeskog are certainly not a better option, Stastny and Schenn are arguably not better, neither are Kopitar and Carter and Koivu and Staal—especially not if one goes three- or four-deep for every team including Calgary.



But the problem here is that when we start to make these position-by-position comparisons between teams, the dynamics of team construction make the exercise difficult or even pointless. Some centres are better point producers than others but are not as good overall by virtue of another player's 200 ft. game.



In the end I stand by my assertion—the Flames have above average centre depth. But this is actually all besides the fairly simple point that I have intended to make about the Flames' cap structure as it pertains to re-signing Backlund and Bennett in the future.



I really wish I could put you on ignore list or have the discipline to let your posts slide.

Well, you have clearly shown that you have no problem ignoring me. This is now the third time I have asked you a very simple question that you continue to refuse to answer. In this present response you have actually chosen to quote my post directed to another poster in order to avoid the prevailing question, but I am going to insist on repeating myself: "Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group?"

[Erick Estrada]

No he's not.

To all the fans of other teams that visit this site please realize that the comments of some do not represent the majority of Flames fans. Plenty of us have a more grounded opinion of Flames players and realize that while Backlund is a good player Little is a better overall player.

[d_phaneuf]

Cmon guys. Little > Backlund.

And I'm the biggest Backlund fan.

Points aren't everything

Backlund was was a play driving monster last year, and was the few years before too just unnoticed

He is a much better player than Little, and little is underrated

[FBI]

Points aren't everything

Backlund was was a play driving monster last year, and was the few years before too just unnoticed

He is a much better player than Little, and little is underrated

From a Canucks fan!

[CsInMyBlood]

Little > Backlund

Defense is a slight edge to Backs, but Little is a better offensive option. Not to mention, the guy could go RW with Monahan and Gaudreau if he had to.

Backlund > Little

Defense is a big edge to Backs. Little has ALWAYS played with Blake Wheeler and Andrew Ladd on his wings. For over six seasons those guys have been his linemates.

Backlund? Finally got decent wingers the last two seasons, with a rookie Sam Bennett and Frolik two seasons ago, and a rookie Matt Tkachuk and Frolik last season. In both those seasons Backlund has more goals and points than Little, although Little has missed 20 games in both seasons due to injury.

Backs linemates before that? Lance Bouma. David Jones. Mason Raymond. Joe Colborne. Lee Stempniak. Roman Cervenka. Blake Comeau. Quality of wingers is so far off, you almost cannot compare the two players.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Backlund > Little

Defense is a big edge to Backs. Little has ALWAYS played with Blake Wheeler and Andrew Ladd on his wings. For over six seasons those guys have been his linemates.

Backlund? Finally got decent wingers the last two seasons, with a rookie Sam Bennett and Frolik two seasons ago, and a rookie Matt Tkachuk and Frolik last season. In both those seasons Backlund has more goals and points than Little, although Little has missed 20 games in both seasons due to injury.

Backs linemates before that? Lance Bouma. David Jones. Mason Raymond. Joe Colborne. Lee Stempniak. Roman Cervenka. Blake Comeau. Quality of wingers is so far off, you almost cannot compare the two players.
Little played with Laine and Ehlers just this season and they were great. Ladd got removed from Little and immediately went from a 60 point winger to a 30 point winger, in 1 season. When all of Little's wingers are amazing, yet his team sucks, and his most played linemate ends up being a dud when removed from him, maybe that means Little makes his linemates better...


And Backlund was given time with Iginla and friends during the same time that you're listing Comeau and Bouma. He just never gelled. There was a reason that they converted Comeau to center to play with Iginla, and that's because Backlund (at the time) was not at all capable of top 6 duties.

[CsInMyBlood]

Little played with Laine and Ehlers just this season and they were great. Ladd got removed from Little and immediately went from a 60 point winger to a 30 point winger, in 1 season. When all of Little's wingers are amazing, yet his team sucks, and his most played linemate ends up being a dud when removed from him, maybe that means Little makes his linemates better...


And Backlund was given time with Iginla and friends during the same time that you're listing Comeau and Bouma. He just never gelled. There was a reason that they converted Comeau to center to play with Iginla, and that's because Backlund (at the time) was not at all capable of top 6 duties.

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Comeau was converted to center to play with Iginla? I certainly do not remember that.

I think Little is a good player. I just think Backlund is much more complete and I would much rather have him on my team.

[Textcritic]

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Comeau was converted to center to play with Iginla? I certainly do not remember that.

I think Little is a good player. I just think Backlund is much more complete and I would much rather have him on my team.
I think both players are different enough from one another in how they play the game that it is difficult to compare them.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

No, I'm saying they haven't suffered playing with Little. "Blaming" Little for having good linemates is a weak excuse, especially when we've seen what happened to Ladd away from Little. Everyone who plays with Little plays their best, that's what good centers do. And he's been consistently doing it for years. It doesn't matter if it was Wheeler (career year), Ladd (career year), Ehlers (career year, in his short career), Laine (exceptional rookie year), Perreault, it doesn't matter. They all looked at their best with Little.

Backlund had good wingers on his teams as well. Iginla at his near peak. Tanguay when he was a magician. Hudler during his rise. Glencross and Bourque when they weren't ass. The problem was Backlund rarely gelled with any of them and wasn't consistent enough when he was put into a top 6 role until Frolik came about. It's not like he had much center depth to complete with, yet he still found himself playing with the Comeaus and Boumas of the world because he sucked in the top 6. That's not the case today, but it was a couple years ago.

[ricardodw]

I had to read your post four times, but I think I follow what you are arguing here. As I understand it you are suggesting that I am badly over-rating the Flames' current centre depth, but in what follows you have drawn comparisons between top-two centres for several teams and top-three centres for others (Nashville, Anaheim, SJ, Vegas). Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.





Well, for starters, you have a bunch of players lined up at centre where they seldom play centre. I also think you overrate several of these groups when comparing them to the Flames. For example, MacKinnon and Landeskog are certainly not a better option, Stastny and Schenn are arguably not better, neither are Kopitar and Carter and Koivu and Staal—especially not if one goes three- or four-deep for every team including Calgary.



But the problem here is that when we start to make these position-by-position comparisons between teams, the dynamics of team construction make the exercise difficult or even pointless. Some centres are better point producers than others but are not as good overall by virtue of another player's 200 ft. game.



In the end I stand by my assertion—the Flames have above average centre depth. But this is actually all besides the fairly simple point that I have intended to make about the Flames' cap structure as it pertains to re-signing Backlund and Bennett in the future.





Well, you have clearly shown that you have no problem ignoring me. This is now the third time I have asked you a very simple question that you continue to refuse to answer. In this present response you have actually chosen to quote my post directed to another poster in order to avoid the prevailing question, but I am going to insist on repeating myself: "Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group?"


Do yo even follow any other team than the Flames?

Landeskog plays on Duchense line. Face offs Duchense 1049 Landeskog 125.

If the Flames were playing LA or Minnesota in a playoff series you seriously think that the Flames would have an advantage on the top 2 lines Centres? It would be a victory for Monahan and Backlund to play them even.



Sorry I didn't answer your question. Sure the Flames can pay the top 3 centres 18 M.... and be a playoff bubble team. They would have to continue to play a "value" journeyman in Goal and a AHL calibre backup and dump a top 5 defenseman. Also they have to be prepared to accept the draft picks if Tkachuk builds on his first year.

The reason I listed 3 centers in some cases because the #3 is a Backlund level player.

also when you looked at my list you changed from Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre. to Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.

basically conceding that Monahan and Backlund are closer to the bottom when compared to the guys they should match up against.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Having watched Little since the Jets have been back and seeing Backlund play for the Flames before then and during they both have a pretty good skill set. I do think Little holds the edge, but the injuries up until last year concerned me. He is definitely a 2nd line center and makes the players around him better. I think it's a solid contract, and will be well worth it going forward... as long as he keeps up the health piece.

[Textcritic]

...Sorry I didn't answer your question. Sure the Flames can pay the top 3 centres 18 M.... and be a playoff bubble team. They would have to continue to play a "value" journeyman in Goal and a AHL calibre backup and dump a top 5 defenseman. Also they have to be prepared to accept the draft picks if Tkachuk builds on his first year...
So, several other teams can afford to pay in the ballpark of $18 m or more for their top three centres, but the Flames cannot without gutting the rest of their team? How does that work?

My point has been limited to to this question, and it was based on your assertion that the Flames must necessarily choose between Backlund and Bennett. They do not. But moreover, I am now also curious in the light of your assertion that I have been advocating for "the Oilers model" what you think that is, and how my proposal to budget $18.0 m for the Flames' top-three centres aligns with it.

[Textcritic]

Do yo even follow any other team than the Flames?

Landeskog plays on Duchense line. Face offs Duchense 1049 Landeskog 125.

Well I sure as hell do not watch a lot of Colorado Avalanche games. Why would I? They are awful and given the returns it seems dubious to suggest that they have anything on the Flames—centre depth or otherwise.

If the Flames were playing LA or Minnesota in a playoff series you seriously think that the Flames would have an advantage on the top 2 lines Centres? It would be a victory for Monahan and Backlund to play them even.
Given both LA's and Minnesota's supposed dominance, I am surprised to see how badly they struggled to easily vanquish the Flames in their eight meetings this past season. The Kings managed two wins in their five games, but they were also unable to overtake their Pacific Division rivals and missed the playoffs altogether. Minnesota made the playoffs, but were 0-3 against the Flames in their games last year.

Yeah, I don't think either team has much of an advantage.

...The reason I listed 3 centers in some cases because the #3 is a Backlund level player.
How do you figure?

also when you looked at my list you changed from

Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre.

to

Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.

basically conceding that Monahan and Backlund are closer to the bottom when compared to the guys they should match up against.
I concede nothing. My comments about Monahan and Backlund were directed at another poster, and I already admitted that I was quibbling as to the difference between being at best or at worst "slightly above average."

[jammies]

Why are you arguing with ricardow like he's a rational human being?

[Textcritic]

Why are you arguing with ricardow like he's a rational human being?


Because I feel bad that he cannot put me on ignore.

...that and it beats the hell out of the arena threads.

[CsInMyBlood]

No, I'm saying they haven't suffered playing with Little. "Blaming" Little for having good linemates is a weak excuse, especially when we've seen what happened to Ladd away from Little. Everyone who plays with Little plays their best, that's what good centers do. And he's been consistently doing it for years. It doesn't matter if it was Wheeler (career year), Ladd (career year), Ehlers (career year, in his short career), Laine (exceptional rookie year), Perreault, it doesn't matter. They all looked at their best with Little.

Backlund had good wingers on his teams as well. Iginla at his near peak. Tanguay when he was a magician. Hudler during his rise. Glencross and Bourque when they weren't ass. The problem was Backlund rarely gelled with any of them and wasn't consistent enough when he was put into a top 6 role until Frolik came about. It's not like he had much center depth to complete with, yet he still found himself playing with the Comeaus and Boumas of the world because he sucked in the top 6. That's not the case today, but it was a couple years ago.

Are you trying to infer that Backlund doesn't make those around him better?

Go ask scrubs Lance Bouma and Joe Colborne where their last contracts came from. Listen to what Matthew Tkachuk and Micheal Frolik have to say about Backlund.

Also are you trying to tell me Backlund played any significant time with Iginla or Tanguay? Because that's simply not true.

Regardless, today Mikael Backlund is a very valuable piece of the Calgary Flames that has earned himself a nice, long term contract and there is no way I would trade him for Bryan Little, even though I think Little is a good player. It looks like the Jets just signed Little to a good contract. (Especially if he can get back to playing a full season)

You and others obviously disagree, but don't try to make stuff up and pass it off as fact to make your point look that much better.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Also are you trying to tell me Backlund played any significant time with Iginla or Tanguay? Because that's simply not true.
No, I did not say that. I said he had good wingers on his team, and insinuated that he didn't have the opportunity to play significant time with because he sucked playing with them. The Flames literally converted Comeau to play with Iginla at one point because of how brutal the Flames centers were, and that included Backlund. He's improved since then, the same way Russian Giordano isn't as good as Captain Gio. But it's changing history to say that Backlund never had good teammates and the opportunity to play with them, he had ####ty linemates because he wasn't good enough to play with the good players. You're the one who wanted to bring up linemates into trying to downplay Little. But the reason Backlund was playing with third and fourth line players was because he was a third and fourth line center until recently.

You and others obviously disagree, but don't try to make stuff up and pass it off as fact to make your point look that much better.

What did I make up? Your first post was to say how Little ALWAYS (your emphasis) played with Wheeler and Ladd, and I corrected you saying he played with Laine and Ehlers just this season. I contended that Little's linemates have benefited from playing with him. Considering the career years they've had while he was a center or on their lines, I doubt you'll see them disagree. It's stupid to bring up linemates as some sort of argument against Little when everyone who plays with Little plays at their best. And especially comical given the absolute demise of Ladd right now.

[Vulcan]

Here's an article about Backlund.

As for his hockey wish list, Backlund will be hoping to duplicate his strong 2016-17 season, while playing his part in helping the Flames avoid a repeat of their Stanley Cup Playoffs disappointment.
Backlund put up impressive numbers across the board in his most recent campaign, netting career-high marks in goals (22), assists (31), points (53), power-play goals (seven) and game-winning goals (seven).
The versatile centreman was acknowledged for his stellar defensive play when he finished fourth in balloting for the Frank J. Selke award given to the forward ‘who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game.
That’s the good.


http://www.nhlpa.com/news/backlund-ready-to-build-off-impressive-season

[ricardodw]

So, several other teams can afford to pay in the ballpark of $18 m or more for their top three centres, but the Flames cannot without gutting the rest of their team? How does that work?

My point has been limited to to this question, and it was based on your assertion that the Flames must necessarily choose between Backlund and Bennett. They do not. But moreover, I am now also curious in the light of your assertion that I have been advocating for "the Oilers model" what you think that is, and how my proposal to budget $18.0 m for the Flames' top-three centres aligns with it.

The Ducks can afford to pay their top 3 centres 18M because:

1) They drafted Gibson where the Flames drafted Gillies and have an elite goalie they only have to pay 2.3M .. ie they got lucky in the Draft The Flames have a journeyman goalie that Arizona were willing to pay over a million a year not to play with them. Maybe the Flames can find an elite goalie on the cheap but that hasn't been working out well.

2) They packaged their contract mistake (Stoner) with Theodore to dump salary. The Flames could do the same with Brouwer for instance but Anderssen/ Kylingyon /Valimaki are not as valuable an asset as Theodore. ie the Ducks had to do some gutting of their team to accommodate Rackell

3) the Ducks pay their 5/6 d-men (Manson Beauchiem) a combined 1.8M. The Flames felt they needed Stone as a long term #5 and as a result the Flames 5-6 for the next 3 years will be over 4M.

-----------

Crosby -Malkin - the team is built around them


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Edmonton will be a huge mess with gutting happening on a regular basis.

Would be good for the Flames to have a spare 7-8 M in cap space for Talbot in 2019-20


the Flames have 9 core players signed for at least until they have to sign Bennett again. 9 for 46M If they were to extend Backlund at 5 x6 over that period they would have 10 players at 51M ... no Bennett or Tkachuk

cap is currently at 75 by that time say 80. 29 M for 11 Skaters and 2 goalies.

So yes the Flames are not in a position to spend 18M on 3 centres

[the2bears]

^ Should a defence prospect step up, Stone is very easily traded.

But yes, you're absolutely right. The Flames salary structure should be the same as <insert team name here>.