Mason Raymond and Brandon Prust on waivers.

[sureLoss]

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
Prust (VAN) and Raymond (CAL) on waivers

Raymond to the AHL will clear the way for the Flames to activate Ferland off IR

[HOWITZER]

http://caccioppoli.com/Animated%20gifs/Merry%20Christmas/0253.gif

[Super-Rye]

My body is ready. :w00t:

[Trailer Fire]

Flames pick up Prust and Canucks pick up Raymond.

[Finger Cookin]

Let's see if he gets assigned this time.

[SuperMatt18]

Wonder if Montreal would pick up Prust to see if it gives them a shot in the arm.

[Ozy_Flame]

Flames pick up Prust and Canucks pick up Raymond.

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

[mdubz]

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Why would we need Prust when Ferland and Bouma are younger, better versions of him?

[keratosis]

I would. Need the room for Ferland.

[PeteMoss]

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

With Raymond having another year on his deal - it would be pleasing. But no one is going to take Raymond.

[saillias]

Prust is basically Bollig at this point. + the drama he brings with his antics. But seeing that he's been given up on twice in less than a year I'm not sure he can still contribute.

[getbak]

Let's see if he gets assigned this time.
I think he definitely does this time, if he doesn't get claimed.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Don't want him, but has Prust been that bad? Who are they making room for?

[sureLoss]

So it looks like Granlund will stick around with the big club a while longer.

[Incogneto]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

[Strange Brew]

Wonder if he really gets sent down. Hard to see the team eating another year on his deal so if does get sent down, I would assume he gets bought out in the summer.

What a waste. His signing was bad from the outset but he should have been better than this.

[Demetric]

I wouldn't be opposed to that.

i would. need his roster spot for Ferland

[Resolute 14]

So it looks like Granlund will stick around with the big club a while longer.

Hard to figure out why. He's been better than Raymond, but that is still damning with faint praise. Would rather see someone like Grant up in his place.

[dash_pinched]

http://caccioppoli.com/Animated%20gifs/Merry%20Christmas/0253.gif

No, no, no, it's Groundhog Day :)

[Toonage]

Wouldn't shock me to see Raymond clear and Granlund demoted tomorrow

[SofaProfessor]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

Bollig has a role that he plays decently. Plus, he's a healthy scratch more often than he's in the lineup it seems.

Granlund is still effective on the ice when he's not scoring. He creates chances and plays well defensively. Raymond is almost unnoticeable when he's not scoring. The rare time I do notice him is when the puck is dying on his stick.

I'd rather have Granlund and Bollig with the team over Raymond.

[dash_pinched]

I don't think Mason Raymond saw his shadow this morning because he fell down.

[Heavy Jack]

Shuuuuut uppppp... ^^^^^^


Edit - never quick enough shoulda qouted lol

[Goodlad]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

Granlund is at least defensively responsible enough to play in a bottom-6 role. Raymond is providing no offense, and is terrible in the bottom-6. Granlund also still has some potential upside. Raymond is what he is at this point.

[Demetric]

Wouldn't shock me to see Raymond clear and Granlund demoted tomorrow

both sent down and Nakladal brought up to help defense with Wideman out

[PeteMoss]

Hard to figure out why. He's been better than Raymond, but that is still damning with faint praise. Would rather see someone like Grant up in his place.

Granlund becomes waiver eligible next year. Might as well give him as long of a leash as possible this year to see if he can fill a role next year.

Grant would be an improvement but he is what he is at this point and not really a piece for the future.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Praise Jesus!!! There is a God!

[Gaskal]

Hard to figure out why. He's been better than Raymond, but that is still damning with faint praise. Would rather see someone like Grant up in his place.
Granlund is still good on the PK so he still has some minor role with this team. Raymond I don't really see having a role at all.

[lazypucker]

Wonder if Montreal would pick up Prust to see if it gives them a shot in the arm.

Why do the Habs need to pick up Prust? They can just call up all star MVP John Scott and everything will be groovy!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

Uhh nope. Raymond is twice as useless as Bollig or Granlund.

Glorious day!

[Galakanokis]

Hard to figure out why. He's been better than Raymond, but that is still damning with faint praise. Would rather see someone like Grant up in his place.

I would love to see Grant back up and I think we will later in the season, thought he played well in his first go round. As far as Granlund goes I will always lean to the side of the youngster over the vet. Granlund can improve, Raymond not so much.

[Parallex]

So it looks like Granlund will stick around with the big club a while longer.

Pending a Wideman suspension.

If Wides get's dinged I suspect Granlund goes down so we can get another D-man.

[heep223]

Raymond bad.

Granlund bad.

Send them both away

[flamesfan55]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

Today is groundhog day not April fools :whistle:

[Karl]

This will become real news if and only if these guys either get demoted or claimed.

Please, Treliving & Benning, demote them if they don't get claimed. Otherwise, what's the damn point?

[Karl]

Raymond bad.

Granlund bad.

Prust bad.

Send them all to the moon

Fixed your post. ;)

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

It's deserved. Although I think it could've been a toss up between Raymond and Granlund at this point.

[GioforPM]

Kinda dissapointing...and not the fact that Raymond is on waivers. It's the fact that it isn't Bollig, or even just Granlund going down. I feel like those two are more dead weight than Raymond.

Basically it just proves that we have a lot of improvement left to make on this team.

I don't disagree. IMO Raymond hasn't been horrible this year - just not a $3M player.

For that reason as well, he won't be claimed. I could see a team thinking he'd be useful depth, but the pricetag is too high. Now if the Flames retained...

[Resolute 14]

I would love to see Grant back up and I think we will later in the season, thought he played well in his first go round. As far as Granlund goes I will always lean to the side of the youngster over the vet. Granlund can improve, Raymond not so much.

It wasn't a 'Granlund or Raymond' offering. Raymond is going down for Ferland. It's a question of Granlund or Grant to me.

[SuperMatt18]

Would like to see Grant, Nakladal, and Agostino all come up at some point before the end of the season.

[Erick Estrada]

I can understand fans being disappointed in Bollig and Raymond who are signed to veteran deals but Granlund is on his entry level deal making less than $1 million and at least doesn't look out of place in the NHL. Going forward with Gadreau/Monahan raises and Giordano's deal kicking in the Flames are going to need more Granlunds on this team to offset the higher paid players. Sure he's not scoring but nobody is on this team outside of a couple of players is doing anything offensively this season as he's scored a whopping 3 goals less than Hudler and Backlund and those are the guys bringing the team down as they aren't playing up to the level of their contracts.

[1qqaaz]

I can understand fans being disappointed in Bollig and Raymond who are signed to veteran deals but Granlund is on his entry level deal making less than $1 million and at least doesn't look out of place in the NHL. Going forward with Gadreau/Monahan raises and Giordano's deal kicking in the Flames are going to need more Granlunds on this team to offset the higher paid players. Sure he's not scoring but nobody is on this team outside of a couple of players is doing anything offensively this season as he's scored a whopping 3 goals less than Hudler and Backlund and those are the guys bringing the team down as they aren't playing up to the level of their contracts.

I agree that if a bunch of players are doing nothing, you might as well make them young players like Granlund.

However, I disagree on Granlund not looking of out place. Pat Steinbergh always tells me that Granlund is in way over his head, so it must be true.

[GioforPM]

I can understand fans being disappointed in Bollig and Raymond who are signed to veteran deals but Granlund is on his entry level deal making less than $1 million and at least doesn't look out of place in the NHL. Going forward with Gadreau/Monahan raises and Giordano's deal kicking in the Flames are going to need more Granlunds on this team to offset the higher paid players. Sure he's not scoring but nobody is on this team outside of a couple of players is doing anything offensively this season as he's scored a whopping 3 goals less than Hudler and Backlund and those are the guys bringing the team down as they aren't playing up to the level of their contracts.

I don't think it's Granlund's lack of offence that bothers most critics (though I want to see this fantastic wrist shot his supporters cite doing something more than hitting the glass behind the net or the goalie's crest). I think his critics want more physical play and better faceoffs.

[northcrunk]

I really don't want to get my hopes up about Raymond being sent down since last time was such a tease.

[Toonage]

I think we've seen enough from Granlund the past few years to know that while he may be capable of playing in the NHL, he doesn't seem like he will excel at this level. At least not with the linemates he's had and he's unlikely to see better anytime soon. They want him in a checking role, killing penalties.

[FlamesAddiction]

I have nothing against Raymond, but at this point, I think Granlund brings more to the ice. Glad to see that Granlund looks like he is sticking.

I hope someone (in the east) claims Raymond and he goes on to do well.

[GioforPM]

This is what happens when everyone's healthy. I think Raymond haters can take some comfort in the fact that sending Granlund down is a far simpler move. Or even sending Ferland down (for "conditioning" or otherwise). It shows management feels that he's the lowest on the totem pole.

[Red Menace]

I prefer someone in the West claims him so we have the benefit of playing against him more often.
But no one is claiming him...he is dead weight with a bad contract

[GioforPM]

I have nothing against Raymond, but at this point, I think Granlund brings more to the ice. Glad to see that Granlund looks like he is sticking.

I hope someone (in the east) claims Raymond and he goes on to do well.

I doubt anyone claims that player at that salary. The trouble for Raymond is that, when this contract is over, there is little chance of a new contract with anyone, given the new marketplace. He will be in the same boat as Glencross and all those other oldish vets who had to go to PTOs.

[Erick Estrada]

I agree that if a bunch of players are doing nothing, you might as well make them young players like Granlund.

However, I disagree on Granlund not looking of out place. Pat Steinbergh always tells me that Granlund is in way over his head, so it must be true.

Steinberg does a fine job on the radio but his knowledge of hockey is no better than the majority of fans here.

I think we've seen enough from Granlund the past few years to know that while he may be capable of playing in the NHL, he doesn't seem like he will excel at this level. At least not with the linemates he's had and he's unlikely to see better anytime soon. They want him in a checking role, killing penalties.

It's not about excelling it's about not hurting your team or looking out of place as Flames fans will have to get used to entry level players playing in the bottom 6 and bottom defense pairing as going forward the Flames will not have the luxury of paying veteran players for these roles. He may not be a top 6 guy like we hoped a few years back but if he can play bottom six he will have a spot on this team in the future.

You have to believe if Hartley really thought Granlund wasn't getting it done that he would have been the guy sent down. I will trust the coach on this.

[Galakanokis]

It wasn't a 'Granlund or Raymond' offering. Raymond is going down for Ferland. It's a question of Granlund or Grant to me.

Oh sure. I too would take Grant over Granlund at this point, I really like his game. Speed, decent size with tenacity. I think we see Granlund down for a D call up though with the pending Wideman suspension.

Grant is up when, Hudler/Jones are traded.

[FBI]

Granlund hasn't been doing great but I prefer him over Raymond by a bazillimillionton

[PepsiFree]

When you consider what he's being paid along with what the Flames need him to do to be successful, Raymond might be the worst bang-for-buck player on the roster.

If he was 21 and on an ELC, he might be loved. At this point though, it's time to move on.

[PeteMoss]

Steinberg's big on advanced stats and Granlund's are some of the worst on the team (better than only Jones, Bouma and Russell in CF%).

Granlund is however one the team's better penalty killers. When Granlund is on the ice for the PK - opponents average 35 shots per 60 minutes. Compare that to Bouma who's at over 60 shots per 60 minutes. Granlund has been on for only 1 goal while short-handed. He doesn't play as much as Bouma, but he's very effective out there.

Need to look at the full picture when evaluating players.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I don't disagree. IMO Raymond hasn't been horrible this year - just not a $3M player.

For that reason as well, he won't be claimed. I could see a team thinking he'd be useful depth, but the pricetag is too high. Now if the Flames retained...

He's been horrible. What does he do well? Nothing. What does he fail to do? Retain possession, win board battles, score easy goals that he is set up for, win net front battles, make nice setups, etc. He's been deadweight on the roster all year, dragging down his line.

Hard to imagine any team thinking he'd be useful depth if they've scouted him at all.

[Ozy_Flame]

Assuming we don't get rid of anyone, we have Smid, Bollig, Raymond, Engelland, and Smid coming off the books next year. That's alot of salary space to start considering.

[Da_Chief]

Assuming we don't get rid of anyone, we have Smid, Bollig, Raymond, Engelland, and Smid coming off the books next year. That's alot of salary space to start considering.

That's about 10.5mill. Basically all of that will be allocated to Gaudreau and Monahan's raises this summer.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I don't think it's Granlund's lack of offence that bothers most critics (though I want to see this fantastic wrist shot his supporters cite doing something more than hitting the glass behind the net or the goalie's crest). I think his critics want more physical play and better faceoffs.

It's most definitely Granlund's lack of offence that bothers most critics. The guy is a skilled player who was scoring machine in the AHL and hasn't been able to transition that to the NHL. He was never physical nor should he be at his size. His shot is very accurate, but he hasn't made use of it in the NHL.

That said, his defensive game is of more use than Raymond falling down on the ice every 10 seconds.

[FlamesAddiction]

Steinberg's big on advanced stats and Granlund's are some of the worst on the team (better than only Jones, Bouma and Russell in CF%).

Granlund is however one the team's better penalty killers. When Granlund is on the ice for the PK - opponents average 35 shots per 60 minutes. Compare that to Bouma who's at over 60 shots per 60 minutes. Granlund has been on for only 1 goal while short-handed. He doesn't play as much as Bouma, but he's very effective out there.

Need to look at the full picture when evaluating players.

Granlund is also still arguably on the upswing and has room to grow. He is still only 22 years old. If he can learn more in the NHL than the AHL, and given that we are unlikely to make the playoffs, it's a no-brainer to keep him up with the team instead of Raymond (even if Granlund was less effective in some areas).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Treliving admits his bad move. Good to see. Couldn't wait to get this guy off the roster. He may have to be bought out this summer.

[Ozy_Flame]

Treliving admits his bad move. Good to see. Couldn't wait to get this guy off the roster. He may have to be bought out this summer.

Why?

[ricardodw]

That's about 10.5mill. Basically all of that will be allocated to Gaudreau and Monahan's raises this summer.

The first 2.7 M goes to Gio's raise that starts next year.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Why?

Why what? Why does he have to be bought out this summer? Because he can't contribute to the team so buying him out gives us more cap space.

https://www.hockeyscap.com/buyout_calculator/mason_raymond

Gives us 2.1 million more cap space to use next year.

[Ozy_Flame]

Why what? Why does he have to be bought out this summer? Because he can't contribute to the team so buying him out gives us more cap space.

https://www.hockeyscap.com/buyout_calculator/mason_raymond

Gives us 2 million more cap space to use next year.

Would prefer not to be paying Raymond's salary until 2019 unless we are sure we have a solid replacement for Jones, or at least something for Bollig. Until then, I think the better course of action is to let him stay, and keep his salary cap space reserved for Bennett's contract.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Would prefer not to be paying Raymond's salary until 2019 unless we are sure we have a solid replacement for Jones, or at least something for Bollig. Until then, I think the better course of action is to let him stay, and keep his salary cap space reserved for Bennett's contract.

2018. You may not have the buyout date set correctly.

Raymond literally cannot contribute to our lineup. Not good enough enough for the top two lines, not gritty and physical enough for the bottom two. He is literally wasting a roster spot.

The cap space would contribute more than Raymond would. We'd save 2 million next year but lose 1 million the year after.

Maybe they'll just bury him in the minors. Either way can't see him on the roster next fall.

[Ozy_Flame]

2018. You may not have the buyout date set correctly.

Raymond literally cannot contribute to our lineup. Not good enough enough for the top two lines, not gritty and physical enough for the bottom two. He is literally wasting a roster spot.

The cap space would contribute more than Raymond would.

Not sure what you mean by 2018, your own link even says the 2018-2019 season, so . . . 2019?

And I'm not sold on him being ineffective; I think he has value for a small amount of ice time when quick up-ice rushes need to be made. That said, $3 million is way too much for him. I wouldn't buy him out, but I would bank his salary space for Bennett, even if Bennett is due a year after him.

[RockOnRoberts]

Not sure what you mean by 2018, your own link even says the 2018-2019 season, so . . . 2019?

And I'm not sold on him being ineffective; I think he has value for a small amount of ice time when quick up-ice rushes need to be made. That said, $3 million is way too much for him. I wouldn't buy him out, but I would bank his salary space for Bennett, even if Bennett is due a year after him.

Buyout would be 2/3 the remaining value over double the remaining years. After this season he would have just over 3 million remaining for 1 year. So the buyout is 1/3*3mil for each of the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons.

[Buff]

Why what? Why does he have to be bought out this summer? Because he can't contribute to the team so buying him out gives us more cap space.

https://www.hockeyscap.com/buyout_calculator/mason_raymond

Gives us 2.1 million more cap space to use next year.

I'm not going to disagree with you, but remember who the president is. Brian Burke, before he hired Treliving, said the Flames won't buy out contracts. They will honour them and live with them.

You would think Burke would still hold true to that word and make Treliving honour the contract.

[Bourque's Twin]

I don't think Raymond should be bought out, because the Flames will be stuck with some of his salary for more years, years in which cap space will be tighter. He only has 1 year after this year and I don't think the Flames will be super close to the cap. $16 million comes off the books with Jones, Hudler, Hiller, and Ramo. Johnny and Monny will be in the realm of $14 million. The year after is the golden year, when Wideman, Engelland, Smid, Raymond, and Bollig say goodbye. I think management has done a good job.

[SuperMatt18]

You are better off trying to retain off of Raymond's trade on a salary in the off-season then you are buying him out.

At $1.6 million for a single season his contract is palatable. Have to think the Leafs would jump on that, try to get him scoring again, and then move him at the deadline like they are trying to do with a lot of guys this year.

[Ashasx]

nm misread

[sureLoss]

nm

[dammage79]

This should be the end of MayRay as a Flame. Then again, anything can happen. Right move given that he 's been dealt every chance to perform and hasn't quite put is all together.

Sucks, I thought Raymond had more to contribute.

[hummdeedoo]

Bollig has a role that he plays decently

I disagree. Would rather see Grant or some other call up.

[skudr248]

Raymond Sucks

[FurnaceFace]

More importantly...how will this play out on Real Housewives of the NHL? How much will Prust's wife cry?

[Coach]

Glad to see Raymond on the way out. I wouldn't mind picking up Prust.

[skudr248]

^ is that show still going? My friend asks...

[Vinny01]

Glad to see Raymond on the way out. I wouldn't mind picking up Prust.

Huge no to Prust unless the Canucks want Raymond or Bollig in return

[Locke]

Good to see Prust going down. Its a shame they'll get any relief on that Albatross at all.

[Mccree]

More importantly...how will this play out on Real Housewives of the NHL? How much will Prust's wife cry?

Came in looking for this reference, leaving satisfied:)

[BigTuna]

I was correct about Mason Raymond.

[northcrunk]

Came in looking for this reference, leaving satisfied:)

She is going to need some 'Anger Management' I think.

[Strange Brew]

If my memory serves me correctly BT had made 5 UFA signings since being GM:

2014: Raymond, Engelland, Hiller
2015: Ramo, Frolik

Forgetting any?

Two of them have been on waivers (Raymond, Ramo) and no in the league was interested in taking them.
One could be put on waivers right now (Hiller) and no one would take them.
One could arguably be put on waivers right now (Engelland) and go unclaimed. I know some people see it differently but IMO his usefulness is outweighed by his horrid contract.
One (Frolik) looks pretty good right now.

Not a great batting average but as some have pointed out elsewhere, no crippling mistakes. Still I have heard Burke say more than once that most GM's make their biggest mistakes on July 1. Makes me wonder what he thought of these signings and his amount of influence.

In any case given the teams current cap situation and their poor position in the standings, mistakes like these will be magnified next year.

[GioforPM]

He's been horrible. What does he do well? Nothing. What does he fail to do? Retain possession, win board battles, score easy goals that he is set up for, win net front battles, make nice setups, etc. He's been deadweight on the roster all year, dragging down his line.

Hard to imagine any team thinking he'd be useful depth if they've scouted him at all.

His possession stats are actually in the upper half of the team if I read them right (and I might not, because I'm no authority). his last few outings I have thought he was actually one of the more effective fore-checkers, skaters and and passers. Objectively, IMO he was better than guys like Jooris, Granlund and Colborne over that stretch (excepting Colborne's two-game outburst).

But I think people see what they want to see and their minds have been made up about his game for a long time. So mistakes are magnified and good play shrugged off.

[GioforPM]

If my memory serves me correctly BT had made 5 UFA signings since being GM:

2014: Raymond, Engelland, Hiller
2015: Ramo, Frolik

Forgetting any?

Two of them have been on waivers (Raymond, Ramo) and no in the league was interested in taking them.
One could be put on waivers right now (Hiller) and no one would take them.
One could arguably be put on waivers right now (Engelland) and go unclaimed. I know some people see it differently but IMO his usefulness is outweighed by his horrid contract.
One (Frolik) looks pretty good right now.

Not a great batting average but as some have pointed out elsewhere, no crippling mistakes. Still I have heard Burke say more than once that most GM's make their biggest mistakes on July 1. Makes me wonder what he thought of these signings and his amount of influence.

In any case given the teams current cap situation and their poor position in the standings, mistakes like these will be magnified next year.

You forgot Setoguchi (which was practically no-risk). Hiller's signing looked good for much of last year, and Engelland's looked good after Gio went down.

All of those deals were market price, IIRC. Raymond and Engelland had other offers at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20.

[1qqaaz]

If my memory serves me correctly BT had made 5 UFA signings since being GM:

2014: Raymond, Engelland, Hiller
2015: Ramo, Frolik

Forgetting any?

Two of them have been on waivers (Raymond, Ramo) and no in the league was interested in taking them.
One could be put on waivers right now (Hiller) and no one would take them.
One could arguably be put on waivers right now (Engelland) and go unclaimed. I know some people see it differently but IMO his usefulness is outweighed by his horrid contract.
One (Frolik) looks pretty good right now.

Not a great batting average but as some have pointed out elsewhere, no crippling mistakes. Still I have heard Burke say more than once that most GM's make their biggest mistakes on July 1. Makes me wonder what he thought of these signings and his amount of influence.

In any case given the teams current cap situation and their poor position in the standings, mistakes like these will be magnified next year.

Did Feaster make any big mistake on free agency? Overall, the Hudler and Wideman signings were quite good. I can't really think of any really bad ones.

[Coach]

Two of them have been on waivers (Raymond, Ramo) and no in the league was interested in taking them.


Ramo is back and has been playing starter hockey since returning.


One could be put on waivers right now (Hiller) and no one would take them.
One could arguably be put on waivers right now (Engelland) and go unclaimed.

These are your assumptions, not realities.


One (Frolik) looks pretty good right now.

Agreed.

Not a great batting average but as some have pointed out elsewhere, no crippling mistakes. Still I have heard Burke say more than once that most GM's make their biggest mistakes on July 1. Makes me wonder what he thought of these signings and his amount of influence.

In any case given the teams current cap situation and their poor position in the standings, mistakes like these will be magnified next year.

If these are his worst mistakes, I think we can consider ourselves lucky. There is a lot of bad handed out on July 1st. A few slightly overpaid depth players, who have been decent on-ice contributors is not an apocalyptic scenario.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Not sure what you mean by 2018, your own link even says the 2018-2019 season, so . . . 2019?

And I'm not sold on him being ineffective; I think he has value for a small amount of ice time when quick up-ice rushes need to be made. That said, $3 million is way too much for him. I wouldn't buy him out, but I would bank his salary space for Bennett, even if Bennett is due a year after him.

2018. Did you not read where I said you must have the buyout date set wrong? The link does not retain the date I entered. It defaults to buyouts last summer which is wrong, we would be buying him out this summer not next.

He is ineffective. It's been on display the last 1.5 seasons for all to see.

[Brick]

I hope that there's a couple more moves, Granlund and ?, to make room for Grant and Nakladal. It's time to shake things up.

[Phanuthier]

Meh UFA's are always overpaid by the nature of the bidding war. Engelland was brought in for off ice leadership and toughness, since we small and easy to beat up the previous year. I still like the signing.

Hiller was necessary (or some variation of goaltender) cause we would be a gong show without him at the time.

Mason Raymond, I can see why it was made since we had pretty much nothing left with everyone leaving or sold off (except Glencross), who knew Gaudreau would do what he did. I do think it was way too long, should have have gone 2 years instead of 3.

[Ozy_Flame]

2018. Did you not read where I said you must have the buyout date set wrong? The link does not retain the date I entered. It defaults to buyouts last summer which is wrong, we would be buying him out this summer not next.

He is ineffective. It's been on display the last 1.5 seasons for all to see.

Fair enough, it does appear to be a 2018 buyout in 2016. That said, I don't think it's the right move; I think we just leave him as a warm body / rotational when needed and let his contract completely run out in 2017 - assuming we don't flip him as a cap dump beforehand.

[IgiTang]

She is going to need some 'Anger Management' I think.

Wrong wife... Sheeeeesh.. Gotta know your 'Hockey wives' bro!

[Azhouse]

Ryan Miller is married to the actor. Prust is married to that highly ANNOYING French Canadian chick (or so my wife tells me).

[northcrunk]

Wrong wife... Sheeeeesh.. Gotta know your 'Hockey wives' bro!

I'm slipping bro. Need to step my game up.

[The Yen Man]

If my memory serves me correctly BT had made 5 UFA signings since being GM:

2014: Raymond, Engelland, Hiller
2015: Ramo, Frolik

Forgetting any?

Two of them have been on waivers (Raymond, Ramo) and no in the league was interested in taking them.
One could be put on waivers right now (Hiller) and no one would take them.
One could arguably be put on waivers right now (Engelland) and go unclaimed. I know some people see it differently but IMO his usefulness is outweighed by his horrid contract.
One (Frolik) looks pretty good right now.

Not a great batting average but as some have pointed out elsewhere, no crippling mistakes. Still I have heard Burke say more than once that most GM's make their biggest mistakes on July 1. Makes me wonder what he thought of these signings and his amount of influence.

In any case given the teams current cap situation and their poor position in the standings, mistakes like these will be magnified next year.

To be fair to Brad, at the time of the signings, we were expecting Flames to be in the basement for the next 3-4 years, all the while slowly building back to contention. No one could have predicted last year's success, and so Treliving was more signing guys to fill out an NHL roster. His biggest non-mistake? Making sure he didn't sign anyone long term. Raymond's is a little long in hindsight, but even his contract was a reasonable 3 year length. No crazy 5 year deals like what Feaster was handing out.

[smiggy77]

To be fair to Brad, at the time of the signings, we were expecting Flames to be in the basement for the next 3-4 years, all the while slowly building back to contention. No one could have predicted last year's success, and so Treliving was more signing guys to fill out an NHL roster. His biggest non-mistake? Making sure he didn't sign anyone long term. Raymond's is a little long in hindsight, but even his contract was a reasonable 3 year length. No crazy 5 year deals like what Feaster was handing out.

I agree. I think almost every decision by Treliving has been awesome at the time. You can't really evaluate a lot in hindsight because we're dealing with player assets. You can only base a decision on the player at that time and their potential impact on the organization.

It's like blaming the Sens GM for drafting Daigle.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I was correct about Mason Raymond.
Lots of people were. I wasn't happy when the Flames signed him either, it's not something to brag about though, it was pretty dicey from the get go. It was a a cap floor signing when the GM had no idea Gaudreau would become what he is.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter. 1 more year for 3.15m literally doesn't matter at all at this point. Everyone has a Raymond... who cares? Aside from Wideman's NMC, I don't think there's a more annoying debate going on right now as far as bad contracts go on Calgary.

[DoubleF]

If my memory serves me correctly BT had made 5 UFA signings since being GM:

2014: Raymond, Engelland, Hiller
2015: Ramo, Frolik



2014: Treliving is a rookie NHL GM. Main fault IMO, under estimated roster, made conservative moves expecting something marketable in 2-3 years, overpaid to get to floor. Our team was completely putrid on paper.

Setoguchi - Needed RW
Engelland - Needed Grit to protect kids, plays RW and D. Multi tool player.
Raymond - Cammellari replacement to play below Glencross.
Hiller - Needed G. Traded Berra previous year, let Joey Mac walk. Needed someone to play with Ramo.

2015: 1 year under his belt. Main fault IMO, misread other GMs. Lost Byron to waivers, ran a goalie circus due to a rumor Hiller trade fell through.

Ramo - Rumor had it Hiller was going out and the trade fell through last moment. Needed G if Hiller was indeed gone.
Frolik - Needed RW. Also, absolute trickery to nab what we needed from the other teams and at a good price.

[Hot_Flatus]

Praise Jesus!!! There is a God!

Yes, somehow Raymond was the cause of all the Flames shortcomings.....this team has a LONG way to go at this point and I'd much rather see actual moves to improve the team being made then another lateral waiver move. I don't see any reason to be even moderately excited by waiving a guy that was barely dressing enough this year to even be included in any discussion regarding the team's poor play.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Fair enough, it does appear to be a 2018 buyout in 2016. That said, I don't think it's the right move; I think we just leave him as a warm body / rotational when needed and let his contract completely run out in 2017 - assuming we don't flip him as a cap dump beforehand.
That's weak management though, in any job. A warm body won't help the Flames improve on a 2nd round.

Time to cut bait. Get Hartley a 3 million dollar winger who can help. It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

[Ozy_Flame]

That's weak management though, in any job. A warm body won't help the Flames improve on a 2nd round.

Time to cut bait. Get Hartley a 3 million dollar winger who can help. It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

What does that even mean? It's his fault Raymond is on the roster.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think Treliving is getting a bit too much hate for this FA signings.

When Calgary signed Engelland, Hiller and Raymond, they were essentially entering their rebuild. They had to over-pay in a market that sees UFAs overpaid as it is.

I liked the Engelland signing - he is actually a decent everyday defender who provides both a physical presence and a bit of a deterrent at the same time. Apparently his leadership is phenomenal as well. He just filled a lot of holes on the team. I still like Engelland on this team.

Hiller - anyone really upset with Hiller? Well, his game fell off, but he was a pretty good goalie last season. I have always preferred Ramo, and I don't like Hiller at all - but even as a critic I can't for one instant think he was a terrible signing. This team would not have made the post season last year without him (and without Ramo).

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.

Treliving kept all the terms to 3 years or less. Overpaid? Every single one of them were. That is what happens in a rebuild - you have to overpay the overpaid UFAs to fill spots on your team temporarily.

Setoguchi - again, not sure why people would get annoyed the Seto signing. It was throwing low risk darts at the board. If he panned out, it would have been a genius move. If it didn't - well, did it really hurt the team? I also look at it this way - Setoguchi was a good example for the kids of what NOT to do and to avoid certain traps on the team. Maybe for that reason alone it was worth it.

As for what Trelving should do now - I don't think Howard is the answer. There is probably not a goalie that tries as hard as Howard. His compete level is through the roof. Second, third and fourth chances - he keeps trying. He is very Kipper-esque in that way. However, he is small and really not that great. If he was not so athletic and didn't have that high compete, he would stink. He does not have an average contract. It would be acquiring an overpaid player with term - tough to swallow.

I would rather the Flames wait for someone like Ward (who I don't think is that great - really just another stop-gap) and sign him for cheaper (or at least, less term). Maybe spend more assets on someone more proven. Maybe take on Bernier for his last year - I would imagine he would be cheap, and the risk may be palatable. Heck, scour the KHL/other European leagues for any quality tenders.

I would just hate if the Flames spend assets on a sub-par goalie with term who then becomes a huge problem down the line. Count me in as much rather just re-sign Ramo. His numbers - outside of the stretch of games before he got waived - are actually decent. He will lose more games than he steals in a season (unfortunately), but at least he keeps you in most games and gives you the chance to win. Until there is a clear upgrade - not a 'I think this guy can rebound' - just stick with what you know if what you aren't as sure about is going to cost you assets today, or become a problem for you down the road.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ On the other hand, there is arguably guessing vs. educated guessing. That is why 30 guys get GM jobs with huge stakes and there are thousands of Internet board armchair GMs

[crapshoot]

It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

Holy double negative Batman!

[1qqaaz]

I think Treliving is getting a bit too much hate for this FA signings.

When Calgary signed Engelland, Hiller and Raymond, they were essentially entering their rebuild. They had to over-pay in a market that sees UFAs overpaid as it is.

I liked the Engelland signing - he is actually a decent everyday defender who provides both a physical presence and a bit of a deterrent at the same time. Apparently his leadership is phenomenal as well. He just filled a lot of holes on the team. I still like Engelland on this team.

Hiller - anyone really upset with Hiller? Well, his game fell off, but he was a pretty good goalie last season. I have always preferred Ramo, and I don't like Hiller at all - but even as a critic I can't for one instant think he was a terrible signing. This team would not have made the post season last year without him (and without Ramo).

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.

Treliving kept all the terms to 3 years or less. Overpaid? Every single one of them were. That is what happens in a rebuild - you have to overpay the overpaid UFAs to fill spots on your team temporarily.

Setoguchi - again, not sure why people would get annoyed the Seto signing. It was throwing low risk darts at the board. If he panned out, it would have been a genius move. If it didn't - well, did it really hurt the team? I also look at it this way - Setoguchi was a good example for the kids of what NOT to do and to avoid certain traps on the team. Maybe for that reason alone it was worth it.

As for what Trelving should do now - I don't think Howard is the answer. There is probably not a goalie that tries as hard as Howard. His compete level is through the roof. Second, third and fourth chances - he keeps trying. He is very Kipper-esque in that way. However, he is small and really not that great. If he was not so athletic and didn't have that high compete, he would stink. He does not have an average contract. It would be acquiring an overpaid player with term - tough to swallow.

I would rather the Flames wait for someone like Ward (who I don't think is that great - really just another stop-gap) and sign him for cheaper (or at least, less term). Maybe spend more assets on someone more proven. Maybe take on Bernier for his last year - I would imagine he would be cheap, and the risk may be palatable. Heck, scour the KHL/other European leagues for any quality tenders.

I would just hate if the Flames spend assets on a sub-par goalie with term who then becomes a huge problem down the line. Count me in as much rather just re-sign Ramo. His numbers - outside of the stretch of games before he got waived - are actually decent. He will lose more games than he steals in a season (unfortunately), but at least he keeps you in most games and gives you the chance to win. Until there is a clear upgrade - not a 'I think this guy can rebound' - just stick with what you know if what you aren't as sure about is going to cost you assets today, or become a problem for you down the road.

You completely changed my view on Treliving's FA signings in one post. Congrats.

[flambers]

Raymond will clear, I will be curious to see if they assign him.

[Dr. Doom]

I have no issues with Treliving's signings, Raymond included.
He took flyers on bargain bin guys that were stop-gap measures more than anything.
The issue comes where he didn't drive the prices down accordingly.
On Tim and Sid last night they could not believe Raymond was earning 3+ mil.
That was ridiculous then and absurd now.
I just hope this isn't a sign of poor bargaining power in contract negotiations, especially some of the doozers coming up.

[getbak]

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

[PeteMoss]

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

[Anduril]

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

You have to consider the otherside of it as well. As much as we'd all love to sign some of the riskier UFAs to 1 year prove it deals to minimize risk, they have their own ask. Raymond has generally been a 30-40+ point guy in his career, hence why we could sign him for 3M instead of 5 and I'd imagine part of that is the 3 years instead of more.

[Buff]

good points on contracts Treliving signed

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

Just to add to your comment on him not playing up to his contract. I don't think he would be living up to his contract if he signed for only $1M per year. Last year... maybe, at times. This year? No way. Maybe he brings something to the dressing room that we fans don't see but his on ice performance leaves quite a bit to be desired.

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

He has had a couple of comparable years, but he certainly isn't consistent year in and year out. Heck, even game in and game out his consistency isn't there.

However, I still don't think a 3 year contract was out of the question. At that time they wanted veterans to take up ice time so the young guys weren't thrown into a situation where they were making too many mistakes because they were in over their heads.

He's not going to prevent Treliving from signing Gaudreau or Monahan and he'll be gone in time to sign Bennett, if not sooner.

He doesn't do much to help the team win now, and his role is no longer needed, in the eyes of many fans, but at the time of the signing it was a good idea. In the world of sports you take gambles. Sometimes the safe bets don't turn out well, and sometimes the huge gambles make a GM look like a genius. Not every move that a GM makes is going to be applauded by everybody, not at the time of the move, or years later.

[Vulcan]

Raymond will clear, I will be curious to see if they assign him.

I believe they need to assign him as unless someone goes on the IR list they don't have roster room.

[saillias]

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.


Very good points. If anyone every wonders why Calgary boy Mike Green has no interest in coming home, just look at how things can go for the Raymonds, Colbornes, Russells etc. When fans turn on a local player no doubt it reaches the family.

[Robbob]

I have never really liked Raymond, although he had that first week when he was here and scored a hat-trick on Edmonton. That was probably the height of the Raymond era in Calgary. Kind of puts him in the same category as All star Petr Buzek. All I remember him for is scoring a couple goals on the Oilers.

[getbak]

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

[GioforPM]

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

Raymond being a winger, and Granlund being a centre (sort of) with no other centres sitting on the bench, means Raymond goes. Unless, of course, they move Bennett or Colborne to centre. Some people would be happy if the former happened, with Monahan, Bennett, Backlund and Stajan down the middle. But then you have to move Granlund to the wing and between him and Raymond at wing, it's kind of a tossup IMO.

[flambers]

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

Last time Raymond was waived, he cleared and stayed on the roster.

Curious if they will send down Granlund or will they actually assign Raymond to the farm.

[FeyWest]

I have no issues with Treliving's signings, Raymond included.
He took flyers on bargain bin guys that were stop-gap measures more than anything.
The issue comes where he didn't drive the prices down accordingly.
On Tim and Sid last night they could not believe Raymond was earning 3+ mil.
That was ridiculous then and absurd now.
I just hope this isn't a sign of poor bargaining power in contract negotiations, especially some of the doozers coming up.

Backlund contract, Brodie contract, even the Gio contract is decent value if he can sustain his play even through half of it, Hamilton contract. These all were contracts there was great debate over and everyone saying theyd be happy with X @ Y term and all of these contracts were brought under these expectations, in Brodie's case well under. I'm not concerned with his contract negotiating skills.

When it comes to the UFA market you have to always try to beat out the other teams too so it's a lot harder to get good value contracts majority of the time.

[FeyWest]

Last time Raymond was waived, he cleared and stayed on the roster.

Curious if they will send down Granlund or will they actually assign Raymond to the farm.

Well this time we are in a bit of a different situation regarding roster size. Ferland is back and Wideman counts towards the roster on suspension so we will have to send one down regardless and another so we can add another D-man in the case Wideman is on suspension for any appreciable amount of time (5+ games in my mind)

[getbak]

One thing about Wideman's suspension is that if you look at the schedule for the next few weeks, the Flames are either at home or on the road on the west coast (and Arizona) until they go to Philly on the 29th (and Stockton doesn't leave California during that time).

They could potentially decide to play with 6 d-men, knowing they can make a pretty quick emergency recall if needed.

[codynw]

Backlund contract, Brodie contract, even the Gio contract is decent value if he can sustain his play even through half of it, Hamilton contract. These all were contracts there was great debate over and everyone saying theyd be happy with X @ Y term and all of these contracts were brought under these expectations, in Brodie's case well under. I'm not concerned with his contract negotiating skills.

When it comes to the UFA market you have to always try to beat out the other teams too so it's a lot harder to get good value contracts majority of the time.

Even the Frolik contract was less than many were expecting.