2015-2016 Blue Jays Off-Season Thread

[Pagal4321]

Time to move everything out of that ALCS thread.

Will AA be back? Will Price re-sign? Will Estrada cash in on his 2nd half performance? Will Shapiro dispose of the stupid 5 year contract max?

This should be a very interesting summer for the Jays and their fan base.

[Caged Great]

Shapiro has already stated that the 5 year rule is toast because that limits the good players from signing with you.

[kmart]

I think the keys to the offseason will be to get some lefties in the line up, another lefty in the bullpen, and a starter or two (whether it be Price or Estrada).

The Blue Jays were too right heavy and having a lefty would've made a world of difference. Righties always pitched these guys away, which lead to a lot of walks. It would be an unbelievable line up if they could get another left bat to protect our top hitters and balance our line up against right handed pitchers.

Another lefty in the bullpen would be crucial for Cecil's sake. Loup isn't that guy either. Not having a lefty really hurt this team in the end of the year.

Lastly, the starters are likely penciled in as Stroman, Sanchez, Dickey, and Hutchison thus far. Signing one or two more starters and moving one of Dickey and Hutchison to the pen as a long man would be the ideal move IMO. I think Stroman is a top 2 guy and Sanchez has proven for stretches that he can be a starter in the league. Dickey worries me, especially with his declining velocity and Hutchison has huge concern for me as well, although I can see him turning it around. I hope they can keep Estrada and sign another 2-3 pitcher (ie. Jeff Samardzija).

I think with some adjustments to the line up and the bullpen and adding two starters this is right there in the chase for another pennant next year.

[flames_fan_down_under]

After the best season of Jays baseball in a very very long time it's an exciting off-season ahead for the Jays.

Having Shapiro in the front office brings some more legitimacy to the Jays front-office and was a move that I liked from the beginning. For anyone who wants to learn a bit more about Shapiro here's a good piece from bluebirdbanter.com:

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2015/8/31/9232287/the-411-on-blue-jays-new-club-president-mark-shapiro

Off-season priorities:

1) Alex Anthopoulos situation: I think re-signing AA is a no-brainer for Shapiro and it will likely happen as soon as it can possibly be done, which is Nov. 1 I think? AA brought playoff baseball to Toronto for the first time in 22 years. I know I probably whine about the Dickey trade too much but AA has made some absolutely awesome trades. The best being Lawrie for Donaldson, Lind for Estrada, the Troy Tulowitzki trade. His signing of Melky Cabrera was one of his better free-agent moves.

Caveat: My only issue with AA being re-signed is that AA and Gibbons are basically a package deal. I am still not, and frankly haven't ever been sold on Gibbons.

2) The pitching situation: The most glaring issue for the Jays is both starting pitching and having reliable arms in the bullpen. The Jays are certainly going to pick-up Dickey's option. It's doubtful the Jays have a player that is more of a lightning rod than R.A. Dickey. Price is not likely to come back which sucks but I don't think the Jays will be able to compete with the Dodgers/Yankees/Red-Sox of the MLB. Estrada will get re-signed. Hopefully Estrada can pitch to Russell Martin because Navarro won't be back. Then likely a trade of either Encarnacion or Bautista. I think Edwin gets traded for a good pitcher. Wishful thinking side of me is hoping Jeff Samardzija is signed as a free-agent. So that gives us Stroman-Pitcher acquired via EE trade- Samardzija- Estrada - Dickey.

The bullpen will have Loup, Osuna, Cecil, Hutchison, Sanchez, Schultz, Tepera, Jenkins and a host of others and needs a lot of work.

3)LF/RF/1B: This is where things get interesting. The Jays hold onto Collabello, the production he brings with his price-tag is a no-brainer. I like the idea of signing Chris Davis, he's a left handed bat on a team needing more lefties plus he can play first base. Smoak is gone IMO. Keep Revere in LF, put Joey Bats in as DH, and put Saunders in RF.

4)Backup Catcher: Navarro re-signing is unlikely given his displeasure of being replaced by Russell Martin. John Jaso, despite his horrific dreadlocks, can play catcher and is a good hitter and could be had a decent price tag AND he's a left handed bat. He's on my wish-list.

That's my list! Go JAYS!

[Jason14h]

3)LF/RF/1B: This is where things get interesting. The Jays hold onto Collabello, the production he brings with his price-tag is a no-brainer. I like the idea of signing Chris Davis, he's a left handed bat on a team needing more lefties plus he can play first base. Smoak is gone IMO. Keep Revere in LF, put Joey Bats in as DH, and put Saunders in RF.

Where does Edwin go?

I don't think we will see Saunders next season

[flames_fan_down_under]

Where does Edwin go?

I don't think we will see Saunders next season

In my post I said he was traded for a pitcher!

[Pagal4321]

I'm with a few other posters around here, I don't think AA is signing with the Blue Jays. I have a feeling there is a power struggle between Shapiro & AA that will cause him to look elsewhere.

Hope I'm wrong though.

[bomber317]

If they could add Chris Davis to first base that would be awesome. Power lefty batter, more dongs!

I would really like to get Jose out of RF and get an upgrade on defense in RF. But that would create a log jam in DH with EE and Jose there. Seems crazy to move one of those out now.

Our starters look iffy right now

Stroman
Dickey (option year)

Buehrle (retires?)
Price (FA)
Estrada (FA)

Hutch (bullpen? starter?)
Sanchez (stays in bullpen?)
Osuna (convert to starter?)
Pennington (convert to starter?) - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/cliff-pennington-might-have-a-career-on-the-mound/ :P

LF - Sauders/Revere (one or the other, not both)
CF - Pillar
RF - Bautista
Backup - Pompey
3B - JD
SS - Tulo
2B - Travis
Backup - Goins
1B - Davis
DH - EE
Cheerleader - Kawasaki

[habernac]

sports hernia surgery for Edwin:

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/858333

[goodyear]

I think as long as AA is still the GM, the team will get better. He's proven that he can bring in the right kind of guys to make the team work.

Left handed arms and bats are priorities.

It'll be awesome if they bring back both Price and Estrada or at the very least, Estrada. Regardless if Sanchez and/or Osuna are moved to the rotation, the Jays still need to bolster the bullpen.

Now if only Treliving can pull off what AA did this season!

[Roof-Daddy]

My wishlist:

David Price
Marco Estrada
Chris Davis
A decent back up catcher
Take the options on EE, JB and Dickey
Upgrade bullpen if possible


1. 2B Travis
2. 3B Donaldson
3. RF Bautista
4. 1B Davis
5. DH Encarnacion
6. SS Tulowitzki
7. BC Martin
8. CF Pillar
9. LF Revere

Backup IF - Goins/Colabello (1B)
Backup OF - Pompey/Carerra/Saunders
Backup catcher: ?????

Rotation:

Price
Stroman
Estrada
Dickey
Hutchison/Sanchez

Bullpen:

Osuna
Cecil
Loup (upgrade if possible)
Hendriks
Tepera
Schultz

[Jiggy_12]

Adding Davis would be great. But I would be afraid of what price tag he will command, and being that he turns 30 this off season he likely knows this will be his only shot at a massive contract. Id rather see the money go to Price/Estrada and/or another arm. If there's any way to do it all then I'm all for going after Davis, but I hope they don't set their sights on him in place of top end pitching.

The thought of him in the Jays lineup is almost absurd. No free agent pitcher will come anywhere near the AL East.

[flambers]

Off-season priorities:

1) Starting Pitching

- Likely Jays will lose Price, Estrada and Buhrele in the off season (3 of the 5 Starters).
- Jays will need to convert either Osuna or Sanchez to a Starter
- Jays I would guess pick up the club option on Dickey


2) Left handed Bat

- Line up has way to many righties....

3) Bull Pen

[Pagal4321]

Someone is going to pay Chris Davis $100M plus, I can't see the Jays going anywhere close to that, nor should they. They do need a left bat but not at that cost.

If top dollar is to be handed out, it should be almost entirely dedicated to pitching. Still don't see Price coming back, so chances are the Jays look at one of the Washington FA pitchers (Zimmerman or Fister) and a low cost/more risk pitcher (Iwakuma/Latos).

[bomber317]

Video game mode - Pick up Davis AND Cespedes!

[whosurnabby]

I'm with a few other posters around here, I don't think AA is signing with the Blue Jays. I have a feeling there is a power struggle between Shapiro & AA that will cause him to look elsewhere.

Hope I'm wrong though.
I hope Rogers do everything in their power to bring back AA first, then when can focus on offseason moves. He's already proven the fanbase that he can get the ballclub the right players that they need for success within a budget range. Bring back AA!

[Sylvanfan]

You can always find a productive bat in the scratch and dent bin, or by getting another team to pick up a good chunk of a guys salary. Chris Davis sounds great, but really a Kendrys Morales type as a 5-6 hitter in that lineup could do some damage. So maybe see if an Adam Laroche can be had on the cheap to add a bat.

Between EE and Bautista that's a tough call.

Put some money into pitching and make sure you have a bona-fide ace. Once Price was in place it put the other starters in position to succeed. Year in and year out teams struggle to have more than 3 guys throw 160 innings in a year.

[transplant99]

Anthopolous has rejected a contract extension and is finished with the Blue Jays.....as per sportsnet.

[Finger Cookin]

Anthopolous has rejected a contract extension and is finished with the Blue Jays.....as per sportsnet.
Well, this is going to get interesting.

[bluejays]

Classic Rogers, getting into an unnecessary pissing match to put a guy in his place. They did it with Beeston, they did it with Burke, and the list gets another name added. Those moves didn't work out for them and I fail to see how it'll work for them here. Money wasn't an issue. It was responsibility. Rogers are making a huge mistake here and so is Shapiro if he won't give in a bit. There's no one better at this point. It's really upsetting news.

[The Big Chill]

This is extremely disappointing. It's hard to believe that we wouldn't be giving AA a package that he would be happy with.

[Caged Great]

Shapiro apparently wants veto power, which AA did not agree to.

It wasn't about $$ as far as I know.

It is interesting that the Jays brought in one of the biggest penny pinchers to be the team president. Most Jays fans will walk away again if they decide to not re-invest some of their profits from the past few months. It would be an insanely stupid idea.

[Caged Great]

In their only meeting, Shapiro scolded AA and the rest of the staff for dealing so many prospects at the deadline.

That's why AA left. Did something to put the team in a playoff push and gets berated by the new guy for dealing from an area of depth.

Lacava (VP of Baseball Ops) and Minasian (director of scouting) are also looking to leave pronto as well.

[Caged Great]

To me, that means that the Jays are going to cut their payroll. The only reason why you'd be concerned with trading some young guys that aren't that good is if you're wanting those guys to take spots in the MLB.

[flambers]

To me, that means that the Jays are going to cut their payroll. The only reason why you'd be concerned with trading some young guys that aren't that good is if you're wanting those guys to take spots in the MLB.

Not sure they will, my guess Jays want a two tier system before trades, signings etc are completed.

i.e. like the Flames

AA wanted full power..

Not surprised at all with AA leaving

[Senator Clay Davis]

Gotta think Gibbons is now in danger as well. New GM and President will probably want their guy.

[Caged Great]

Manny Acta come on down....

Former coach with Cleveland knows some of the Jays players already.

[ClubFlames]

Disappointing news. AA probably also realized that no way Rogers is gonna give him the flexibility to sign Price or keep the team competitive and he didn't wanna be in the crosshairs again in Canada.

Good luck to AA and thanks again for this season.

[Roof-Daddy]

What an organization.

Just terrible.

[flambers]

Few really interesting articles on TSN

First Link, summarizes all of AA trades....

http://www.tsn.ca/anthopoulos-hits-and-misses-1.383128

Second Link summarizes contract talks briefly

http://www.tsn.ca/jays-offered-anthopoulos-3-year-extension-this-week-source-1.384678

[Caged Great]

Apparently Law is going off on Rogers for this whole situation.

Here's a summary

- Doesn't think Shapiro was hired to replace Anthopoulos, but thinks Rogers expected it.
- Notes that Cleveland is a strong process oriented organization, but has not been successful at all. He would have brought in someone from a more successful organization.
- Thinks that criticizing Anthopoulos' trade record is way off base and incorrect. All trades this year were huge successes.
- Doesn't expect further investment from ownership when it comes to big name pitchers.
- Confirms with industry sources that Shapiro was highly critical of AA's trades at the deadline.
- Anticipates a possible tear down of the existing roster and thinks that it would be a disastrous decision.
- Expects Gibbons to be fired, mentions Eric Wedge. (oh no!)

[Caged Great]

This could be the start of a very off putting off season for Jays fans

[Scornfire]

Ugh, what the #### rogers, just what the ####

[Senator Clay Davis]

Rogers gonna Rogers. TSN can't wait to rip them I bet.

[chummer]

Rogers gonna Rogers. TSN can't wait to rip them I bet.

All of Canada can't wait to rip them.

[jschick88]

What a gut wrenching feeling. Not the way I wanted to start my day.

[jschick88]

I don't blame AA if he didn't have full control.

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal?lang=en)
Sources: #BlueJays offered Anthopoulos long-term contract. His departure is not over terms or money.

If not over money, Anthopoulos’ departure almost certainly linked to changing dynamic of #BlueJays’ front-office with Shapiro’s arrival.

Shapiro influence expected to be more on business. But Anthopoulos might have balked if he perceived that influence extending to baseball.

[bluejays]

I seen Friedman's tweet and thought it was most interesting. It said that he thought Shapiro was brought in assuming the Jays weren't going anywhere and AA wouldn't be brought back. That was before all the big deals. So AA makes huge deals and it changes his status completely.

Rogers always fing up. Hope they get torn a new one for this debacle.

[SportsJunky]

Meh, doesn't bother me. I do like AA for the most part and I think he deserved a reward for the position he put the team in at the deadline. He worked very hard on those deals. But...it's a business and it's Shapiro's right to put conditions in place if he feels Anthopoulos needs those conditions. AA will be fine and the Blue Jays might be better off with some change anyway. Gibbons is next I'm sure.

Good luck to you Alex.

[Tyler]

Good morning guys let's talk ab... wait, what happened?

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/fire_community.gif

[Caged Great]

Francona has an out clause that was triggered when Shapiro left.

Would not be shocked if he came aboard.

[Fire]

Weren't most fans calling for AA's head halfway through this season?

[Pagal4321]

And heeeeere we go.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Will be very, very interesting to see where this goes.

AA put a team together that wasn't very far off from winning the entire thing this year after being out of the playoffs for 22 years, so to hear Shapiro was critical of his moves scares the hell out of me. I don't have a good feeling about this at all, hope I'm wrong.

[Sainters7]

The only good news about this is it drastically increases the chances that Gibbons is gone.


Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

[Senator Clay Davis]

Stolen from another site...

It is being reported that, in their first and only meeting, Shapiro scolded Anthopoulos for trading so many top prospects this year. Looks like Shapiro wants to implement the highly successful Cleveland Indians’ model of holding on to all their prospects and never winning anything.

[GirlySports]

Will be very, very interesting to see where this goes.

AA put a team together that wasn't very far off from winning the entire thing this year after being out of the playoffs for 22 years, so to hear Shapiro was critical of his moves scares the hell out of me. I don't have a good feeling about this at all, hope I'm wrong.

It was really of a miracle run. A GM making those moves at the deadline for a .500 team was crazy. That probably doesnt work most of the time.

Even if AA had stayed, don't see the Jays being that good next year as the other teams reload.

[normtwofinger]

Oh no! We suck again.

[flambers]

It was really of a miracle run. A GM making those moves at the deadline for a .500 team was crazy. That probably doesnt work most of the time.

Even if AA had stayed, don't see the Jays being that good next year as the other teams reload.

For sure all of the Jays trades at the dead-line seemed to work great......

I agree, Jays of next year have some major issues with Pitching.

EE & Bautista are entering their last year of their contracts.

Could be an interesting off season

[flames_fan_down_under]

Like another poster said this spells the end of Gibbons which is pleasing and if Tito comes to the Jays that would be awesome.

Oh well that's a shame that AA is gone, a new chapter for the Jays.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

It was really of a miracle run. A GM making those moves at the deadline for a .500 team was crazy. That probably doesnt work most of the time.

Even if AA had stayed, don't see the Jays being that good next year as the other teams reload.

Yeah, but it did work. And Tulo is under control until 2022. Revere is under control until 2018. So it's not like all the moves he made were rentals, even if he was 'going for it' he still brought in some players that are going to stick around for a little while.

The entire batting order could come back next season if the Jays want. Sign a starter or two and I'm not so sure this team won't be in the thick of things. I'd be more critical of AA if he brought in all pure rentals but he didn't. Shapiro better have some great moves up his sleeves are the entire Jays nation will turn on the organization......quickly.

[flambers]

Yeah, but it did work. And Tulo is under control until 2022. Revere is under control until 2018. So it's not like all the moves he made were rentals, even if he was 'going for it' he still brought in some players that are going to stick around for a little while.

The entire batting order could come back next season if the Jays want. Sign a starter or two and I'm not so sure this team won't be in the thick of things. I'd be more critical of AA if he brought in all pure rentals but he didn't. Shapiro better have some great moves up his sleeves are the entire Jays nation will turn on the organization......quickly.

Key is can the Jays sign David Price or Estrada? If the answer is no, they have major holes to fill.

Batting perspective, they need to find a new 1st Baseman who is a Lefty.

Other than that I like the lineup, but the pitching (Starters and Bullpen) are the concern.

[GirlySports]

Yeah, but it did work. And Tulo is under control until 2022. Revere is under control until 2018. So it's not like all the moves he made were rentals, even if he was 'going for it' he still brought in some players that are going to stick around for a little while.

The entire batting order could come back next season if the Jays want. Sign a starter or two and I'm not so sure this team won't be in the thick of things. I'd be more critical of AA if he brought in all pure rentals but he didn't. Shapiro better have some great moves up his sleeves are the entire Jays nation will turn on the organization......quickly.

I think you risk getting into this habit of relying on the FA market every year and never developing anyone. If your FA signings fail it's a bad season followed by another offseason of more FA signings.

I think Shapiro believes Price trade will come back to haunt the Jays. Losing 3 excellent pitching prospects was a high price to pay.

[ClubFlames]

I think you risk getting into this habit of relying on the FA market every year and never developing anyone. If your FA signings fail it's a bad season followed by another offseason of more FA signings.

I think Shapiro believes Price trade will come back to haunt the Jays. Losing 3 excellent pitching prospects was a high price to pay.

It was either giving up the prospects to acquire an ace to make run for the post season or it would have been 23 years since they last made the playoffs. The choice was pretty easy.

Also, that same David Price could win the Cy Young or finish second in voting atleast.

[jschick88]

Jeff Blair reporting that AA will be on the conference call this morning at 11am MT.

[GirlySports]

It was either giving up the prospects to acquire an ace to make run for the post season or it would have been 23 years since they last made the playoffs. The choice was pretty easy.

Also, that same David Price could win the Cy Young or finish second in voting atleast.


True enough. I don't think the 23 years number is really important though, need to ignore that and build properly.

I compare it to the Flames, if Treveling mortgaged the entire future for a playoff run because the Flames hasn't made the playoffs in X number of years CP would explode.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

So the Jays hire a mediocre executive that costs them an above average GM. Sounds about right.

Getting Dombrowski would've been one thing, but they lost out on him. I could understand losing AA because of a guy like that. But Mark Shapiro? Give me a friggin break...

[Erick Estrada]

I'm mixed on this. Sure he made some deadline deals that got the team on a tear but the overall body of work is somewhat underwhelming. During his time he basically built a team that was middle of the pack. Not total disaster but not a team to be contended with on an annual basis and he's never really been able to address pitching as the bullpen has been a disaster most of his time. It will be interesting to see how coveted he will be around the league and if he can do better in another organization.

[Hockey Fan #751]

True enough. I don't think the 23 years number is really important though, need to ignore that and build properly.

I compare it to the Flames, if Treveling mortgaged the entire future for a playoff run because the Flames hasn't made the playoffs in X number of years CP would explode.

Although if X was 22 they might think differently.

[JayP]

It was really of a miracle run. A GM making those moves at the deadline for a .500 team was crazy. That probably doesnt work most of the time.

Even if AA had stayed, don't see the Jays being that good next year as the other teams reload.

The Jays weren't your average .500 team. They had the best run differential in the league at the time. Even without making those trades, the team more than likely goes on a big run - you don't heavily outscore your opponents all year and fail to win ball games. It was a smart GM realizing what he had on his hands was much better than the record indicated.

There's no way Gibbons sticks around. GMs in baseball always hire their own guy. They don't beat around the bush like in hockey and wait for the incumbent coach to falter before cutting him. Gibbons probably doesn't last until the end of November.

[GirlySports]

The Jays weren't your average .500 team. They had the best run differential in the league at the time. Even without making those trades, the team more than likely goes on a big run - you don't heavily outscore your opponents all year and fail to win ball games. It was a smart GM realizing what he had on his hands was much better than the record indicated.

There's no way Gibbons sticks around. GMs in baseball always hire their own guy. They don't beat around the bush like in hockey and wait for the incumbent coach to falter before cutting him. Gibbons probably doesn't last until the end of November.

The Jays were underachieving no doubt but at the time of the trade they were 8 games behind the Yankees with 60 games left. Were the trades really for a divisional run or for more likely a wildcard berth. Trading away the future for Price pitching in a one game playoff seemed pretty crazy.

I could see these trades being done if the Jays were near or in the division lead. They got really lucky.

Or AA knew that he was done after Beeston announced his retirement so it was one last hurrah.

[ClubFlames]

If it is the end of Gibbons, I really hope Francona comes on board.

[Harry Lime]

I have a feeling that the drum is going to getting louder and louder for a return of the Expos. And with Selig finally gone, it may actually happen, in a few years, if another franchise falters.

[zukes]

I am 100% against this move! Shapiro is an idiot for ripping AA for trading prospects. Take a look around the city of Toronto in August, September and right up to the end of the KC series. The Jays owned that city and most of the country. There were people watching baseball that I didn't think even knew what baseball was.

I will wait and see what happens, but if they start trading guys for prospects, firing Gibbons (another mistake, IMO) and pinching pennies, I am done forever. Screw Rogers!

[ClubFlames]

The Jays were underachieving no doubt but at the time of the trade they were 8 games behind the Yankees with 60 games left. Were the trades really for a divisional run or for more likely a wildcard berth. Trading away the future for Price pitching in a one game playoff seemed pretty crazy.

I could see these trades being done if the Jays were near or in the division lead. They got really lucky.

Or AA knew that he was done after Beeston announced his retirement so it was one last hurrah.

They didn't get lucky. Yes they acquired Price who made a huge difference but Dickey and Estrada were 2 of the best pitchers since the All Star break. Strategically, the moves were made to win the division because the schedule with the Yankees was going to be the deciding factor and the Jays even scheduled Price starts according to that.

The trades gave a boost to the entire team. The talent was there already but the trades gave them confidence.

Plus, they can restock with the draft by finding gems in a year or two.

[868904]

Sounds like Rogers plan all along was to clean house. Imagine if they had actually won the World Series?

[bluejays]

This move is becoming more and more ludicrous. Money on Shapiro being both prez and gm for the time being. F Rogers.

[Senator Clay Davis]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSftiMYWoAAKa9n.jpg

[ClubFlames]

I wonder if everyone's opinion will change if Rogers does infact manage to pony up for Price and other FA's to make the team competitive.

[REDVAN]

The only thing that looks bad is the timing- when you've made your first decent playoff run in 22+ years is NOT usually the time to clean house.

That said, there's been years of underachieving and we had to sell the farm to do it this year. I see both sides of this- from the business and futures side I am not happy with what happened this year, but from a fans point of view I am ecstatic!

Best of luck AA, I'm sure you'll find a new club soon- and best of luck to the Jays so that they don't lose a bunch of re-invigorated fans through this.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I have to shake my head at people that think the Jays won't reduce payroll. This past season was their big run. There's not enough pitching for next year and they are 100% not adding payroll despite the delusion of some from this year's run. They lose Bautista and Edwin next year, and from there they will reduce payroll as they descend back into a mid-payroll team. Those guys are not replaceable, and there's not an agent in baseball that wants their clients to end up there (some are even on record saying as such).

I've been saying this for a while. The signs of this have been there all year. Signing of Martin to usher in young pitching, bringing Gibbons for one more year, bringing on a Penny-pinching President, etc. That's why i was getting so mad with the decisions being made up to the playoffs this year to lose them home field advantage. This year's actions were a one off. Jays will not be in a position to do this again for a long time. Needed to make the most of their run. Rogers went all out for one year to buy themselves another 5-10 with their disenchanted fan base who gobbled up just making it to the dance and now can't point the finger at Rogers as easily.

This AA move is the only one that is going to piss Jays fans off the season other. I'd bet a lot of money they pull the ole "Goins proved he is an every day player", and decide to move him to SS and keep Travis at 2nd. Cheap infield, Rogers likes!. They'll move Tulo's contract for a mediocre "upcoming pitcher" under team control and some B level prospects stating that they needed to fill the pitching hole (that they were too cheap to fill) and Goins has taken strides on offensively so they are willing to give up some of Tulo's offence to improve pitching as offense is a team strong point. Typical Rogers move, that this 30 year + Jays fans is all to familiar with.

[The Big Chill]

Rogers went all out for one year to buy themselves another 5-10 with their disenchanted fan base who gobbled up just making it to the dance and now can't point the finger at Rogers as easily.


I don't think this is true at all. This whole thing will blow up in Rogers' faces really quickly if we aren't able to put out a product that can compete for the division again next season.

If anything, the pressure on them to spend is enormous right now, considering that they just lost the GM that so many fans love. If the Jays aren't good next season, fans will blame Rogers for losing AA, regardless of who the blame actually should lay with.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I don't think this is true at all. This whole thing will blow up in Rogers' faces really quickly if we aren't able to put out a product that can compete for the division again next season.

If anything, the pressure on them to spend is enormous right now, considering that they just lost the GM that so many fans love. If the Jays aren't good next season, fans will blame Rogers for losing AA, regardless of who the blame actually should lay with.

I'll be quite surprised if the Jays spend any money this off season. I think they will compete for the division next year with the team they have, but will fall short due to pitching. The problems start the year after. Their window was 2015 and 2016, and I don't think Rogers will do anything to extend that, and I think the moves they make demonstrate that.

[lifetime_flamesfan]

First off, I would have liked to seen AA back, but its not the end of the world. The Jays under him are only 6 games above .500 in the 6 years he was GM. He made some bad trades and some good trade, like all GM's have.

I really hope Gibbons is gone now, I think you put almost any other Coach in there and the Jays are in the World Series right now, and I think the better team (the Royals) won. There were too many times that I saw coaching errors costing the Jays games. Most notably in game 6 where the Jays had a runner on third and zero outs, gotta get that run in no matter what.

[Bobblehead]

Excellent timing here....
Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos is Sporting News’ 2015 Major League Baseball Executive of the Year, as selected by a panel of 47 major league executives. Voting for the honor, which SN has awarded since 1936, concluded before the start of the postseason.
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb-news/4659623-alex-anthopoulos-executive-of-year-blue-jays-sporting-news

[Ne7en]

I could see these trades being done if the Jays were near or in the division lead. They got really lucky.

Lucky? I couldn't disagree more. AA went for it and added ELITE players, you don't need luck when you have immense talent.

It's not rocket science, you don't let the 'executive of the year' walk away. This is seer stupidity on the Jays/Rogers part.

[jayswin]

I wonder if everyone's opinion will change if Rogers does infact manage to pony up for Price and other FA's to make the team competitive.

Absolutely, opinions will change. But what the **** are the chances? Jays fans aren't stupid, and it's pretty easy to put some pieces together here. We're likely done going for it. Now we'll see payroll reduced, and likely a big name or two gone for a smaller name plus prospects.

Not to be chicken little, but with the pitching problems already requiring big money and what transpired today, I'm willing to bet we are turned into a 3rd place team by training camp. With the Yankees reloading, and Boston making some big moves/significant signings.

If I were to put money down, we'll be one of those teams that's "fighting" for a wild card spot most of the year and then loses a spot to a team or two that puts a bunch of money into their lineup sometime in July.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

[normtwofinger]

I wonder how Shapiro ripped AA.

"Well Alex, in spite of building a playoff World Series contending team, ending this franchise's 22 year playoff drought, filling the empty ballpark again, bringing the whole city, province and country together, adopting a whole new generation of fans and bringing x amount of money from sellout attendance, TV revenue, etc, we are soooo disappointed you traded some prospects away. GTFO."

[jayswin]

Good morning guys let's talk ab... wait, what happened?

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/fire_community.gif

It's funny, for me and seemingly a lot of Jays fans today, this news is actually a worse feeling than losing game 6 against KC. At least with that game we were already on the ropes with Texas and came back to win the ALDS, then lost a hard fought ALCS.

But all the good feelings after the KC series hinged on "Well that was just year one of the new Blue Jays, CAN'T WAIT to see what AA does this off season, bet he has some huge moves in store!".

Well, we didn't have to wait long. His first move was certainly his biggest! :bag:

[lifetime_flamesfan]

Are there any numbers to how much money Rogers made during the run up to the playoff and during the playoffs? Is there even a way to figure that out?

That would be interesting to see, especially as this off season moves along and how the Jays go about it.

[kmart]

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

The payroll is set by the owners, not GM or President. It's likely he will be using the same payroll that AA had, which is set by Rogers.

[The Big Chill]

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

Would the payroll size ever have been his decision though? Wouldn't he have been given payroll parameters and then made to work within them?

[jayswin]

I wonder how Shapiro ripped AA.

"Well Alex, in spite of building a playoff World Series contending team, ending this franchise's 22 year playoff drought, filling the empty ballpark again, bringing the whole city, province and country together, adopting a whole new generation of fans and bringing x amount of money from sellout attendance, TV revenue, etc, we are soooo disappointed you traded some prospects away. GTFO."

Yep, they had a clear plan in place mid summer, Rogers did not think these moves would turn into an ALDS championship and are choosing to move forward like none of this success actually happened.

This whole thing is very Rogers. Rogers is like the Stephan Harper of companies. Everything they do really annoys you, and they start to deconstruct and make embarrassing changes to the team/network/country you love, and do so against the opinion of the people.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Would the payroll size ever have been his decision though? Wouldn't he have been given payroll parameters and then made to work within them?

I guess my point is he's someone who has experience trying to put together teams on limited budgets. So the thinking is the Jays want to reduce payroll while trying to stay competitive (which of course never works unless it's Billy Beane), and that Shapiro is the man who can do that. Speaks to why he wanted control over AA, so that if AA tried any moves of prospects for players (i.e. adding payroll), he could override him.

[JayP]

I don't think fans issue is necessarily losing AA or Gibbons, but the fact that Shapiro is fully running the show. His track record strongly indicates the Jays payroll is going to be in the bottom 5 teams in the league after being in the top 10 for the past few years. He better be a wizard at finding prospects and cheap talent, otherwise this likely ends horribly.

What does that have to do with Shapiro? Do you think he opted to have a small payroll in Cleveland out of choice? Payroll numbers are set by ownership - it's up to the GM to try and squeeze as much as they can out of them, but that's minimal movement. I wouldn't be worried about Rogers cutting payroll and if they do Shapiro is not to blame.

It'd be sorely disappointing if they didn't increase the payroll given the fan response this season though. It seems like such a poor business decision in the end - make a small investment ($20m extra per season) and, if the team has a similar year, Rogers stands to make multiples of that more in return. Given the roster they have in place it's easily worth the risk.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well I guess I should have made clear I don't blame Shapiro, just that him now having basically total control should be an ominous sign. I obviously fully blame Rogers if this goes south and they cheap out, but we all know their nickel and diming ways so I think we're all thinking it's going that way. It's on them to prove us wrong I suppose.

[TheAlpineOracle]

What does that have to do with Shapiro? Do you think he opted to have a small payroll in Cleveland out of choice? Payroll numbers are set by ownership - it's up to the GM to try and squeeze as much as they can out of them, but that's minimal movement. I wouldn't be worried about Rogers cutting payroll and if they do Shapiro is not to blame.

It'd be sorely disappointing if they didn't increase the payroll given the fan response this season though. It seems like such a poor business decision in the end - make a small investment ($20m extra per season) and, if the team has a similar year, Rogers stands to make multiples of that more in return. Given the roster they have in place it's easily worth the risk.

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying anything about Shapiro, people are saying bringing in a guy whose experience is directly related to penny pinching and small budgets, would suggest that is the way Rogers is moving. Their past actions only further cement this.

[Pagal4321]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_jays_baseball_blog/2015/10/-to-say-alex-anthopoulos-rejected-an-extension-from-blue-jays-is-ridiculous-griffin.html

Well then...

[Jiggy_12]

Wow...this one leaves a really bad taste.

AA completely took the high road in his interview today and refused to get in to specifics or throw anyone under the bus. Very classy, but I'm really intruiged to hear the real full story as to what happened. I'm sure it'll come out at some point or another.

This is too bad. I'll wait to cast total judgement until this offseason is over and we see the scope of the team. At this moment, this is pretty shocking news and really deflating news after such a positive Jays vibe we've felt for the past 3 months.

Congrats to AA on winning executive of the year, it's well deserved.

Also of note - Pillar, Buerhle and Martin all nominated for AL gold glove awards.

[GirlySports]

Lucky? I couldn't disagree more. AA went for it and added ELITE players, you don't need luck when you have immense talent.

It's not rocket science, you don't let the 'executive of the year' walk away. This is seer stupidity on the Jays/Rogers part.

I think a little luck is involved when a team goes something like 42-18 to finish the season. Mets were the same.

Wildcard for sure, division champs was reaching a bit.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The reigning baseball executive of the year just turned down a contract from his hometown team for non-monetary reasons. Let that sink in for a moment. If people didn't understand the hate long term Jays fans have for Rogers, they should now.

I don't think AA is the be all and end all (I found the way he handled the season after they clinched a playoff spot to be pure thrash), but that just shows how much respect Rogers has in the baseball world. No one,not even AA, thinks they can be successful with these clowns setting the rules and strategies. The first chance to get out of from their grasp, he took. What kind of a message does this send to meaningful free agents when the beloved leader doesn't even want to be there.

[JayP]

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying anything about Shapiro, people are saying bringing in a guy whose experience is directly related to penny pinching and small budgets, would suggest that is the way Rogers is moving. Their past actions only further cement this.

That doesn't suggest anything. Did the Dodgers poaching Andrew Friedman suggest they were cutting payroll? Or the Cubs with Theo Epstein? Big market clubs typically bring in guys from small market clubs all the time - that's how most guys work their way up the ladder in the MLB. To say this case is any different is just baseless speculation.

[REDVAN]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/blue_jays_baseball_blog/2015/10/-to-say-alex-anthopoulos-rejected-an-extension-from-blue-jays-is-ridiculous-griffin.html

Well then...

Reading between the lines... Rogers should have made AA President then and hired a figurehead GM.

[Jason14h]

I think my biggest issue is the complaining about trading prospects.

Baseball is a game where every year a hundred new guys become top prospects and a hundred drop off.

While it really sucks to trade a prospects who turn into Noah Syndergaard, more often then not they turn into nothing.

The key is identifying the untouchables (Sanchez, Pompey, Osuna) and move the rest when you think you have a chance to win.

The Yankees use to do this all the time. Every year they would trade a new #1 prospect who you would never hear about again.

Sure in the long run if you do this every year you will eventually suck. But guess what, that the cyclical nature of sports.

The point of the sport is to win the World Series, not have an above average team forever. I sometimes think in today's analytical world GM's would rather win 90 games with an 80 million payroll then the World Series with a 120 million cause it makes them look smarter.

Will Shapiro do a good job? Maybe. But after the run we just had and the balls AA had to make the moves, to handcuff him on decision making seems completely sideways and a typical Toronto sports thing to do.

I can't imagine any other team messing this situation up as badly.

[GirlySports]

^I think this is correct. The modern GM doesn't want to build a powerhouse, he wants an above average team with many shots at the playoffs. You'd think if you make the playoffs 10 times, you'd win once. Whereas a powerhouse team may just have one or two shots and a bad bounces here, a crazy strike call there and it's all over.

The wildcard changed everything. Having 8 (and now 10) playoff teams instead of 4 makes everything a little bit more mediocre.

[adc]

I think my biggest issue is the complaining about trading prospects.

Baseball is a game where every year a hundred new guys become top prospects and a hundred drop off.

While it really sucks to trade a prospects who turn into Noah Syndergaard, more often then not they turn into nothing.

The key is identifying the untouchables (Sanchez, Pompey, Osuna) and move the rest when you think you have a chance to win.

The Yankees use to do this all the time. Every year they would trade a new #1 prospect who you would never hear about again.

Sure in the long run if you do this every year you will eventually suck. But guess what, that the cyclical nature of sports.

The point of the sport is to win the World Series, not have an above average team forever. I sometimes think in today's analytical world GM's would rather win 90 games with an 80 million payroll then the World Series with a 120 million cause it makes them look smarter.

Will Shapiro do a good job? Maybe. But after the run we just had and the balls AA had to make the moves, to handcuff him on decision making seems completely sideways and a typical Toronto sports thing to do.

I can't imagine any other team messing this situation up as badly.

I don't know about that.

If you look at the top teams in MLB (San Francisco, St. Louis, Boston and now maybe KC) the big thing that they have done to ensure that they aren't 1 and done is that they continually are able to turn over their roster by bringing in home grown talent. If you are constantly trading away prospects or failing to develop them then you are at the mercy of paying (usually overpaying) for FA's to fill those holes.

The Yankees went from winning 4 title in 5/6 years to the inconsistent semi-threats because they originally developed Jeter, Petite, Rivera, Posada so that they big money was spent on adding to that. Now they have Brett Gardner and ???? so they have to spend money chasing CC, Texeiria, Pineda etc.

Now obviously saying just do it like San Fran, St. Louis and Boston is a lot easier said than done but I think you a very much undervaluing prospects and the turnover of top guys.

I would also say that it is much easier to sell all your prospects and going for it than building a team with patience and smarts. Look at this situation AA is getting tons of credit/love for making big moves even though they may result in 0 World Series and 0 World Series appearances.

[Weitz]

Man the guy on the fan 960 right now is preaching exactly what some in here are saying.

Flip Donaldson and Tulo if you get the chance.

[JiriHrdina]

I don't think AA is perfect but he got this team back to the playoffs. What bugs me about it is what caused this. Ego. Nothing more. Control and ego.
Nothing good ever happens when that is the fuel.
They had so much momentum built up and good will from a fun season - and a great deal of that has been erased instantly.
Why?
Because of one man's huge ego.
Dumb, stupid and dumb.

[CaramonLS]

I don't think AA is perfect but he got this team back to the playoffs. What bugs me about it is what caused this. Ego. Nothing more. Control and ego.
Nothing good ever happens when that is the fuel.
They had so much momentum built up and good will from a fun season - and a great deal of that has been erased instantly.
Why?
Because of one man's huge ego.
Dumb, stupid and dumb.

Just to be clear, you mean Mark Shapiro's ego, not AA's, right?

[GirlySports]

It might not even be Shapiro's ego, it came from higher.
"YOU need to control AA's spending and stop him trading prospects away."

[The Big Chill]

The part that really bugs me about them ripping AA for giving away prospects is that AA is the one who brought all those prospects in. Before our big run in the second half when the jury was still out on AA, the one thing that we knew he had done really well was building up our prospect base. He took us from a team that was in the bottom of the rankings for prospects, and made us the top team in just a couple of seasons. Then he turns all of that into a good product on the field (which is the entire point of having prospects), and he gets slammed for it.

Rogers has themselves quite the little mess to clean up here.

[bluejays]

I don't know about that. Ownership typically needs to be consulted on major deals anyway. On the prospect side, maybe that was the case, but there isn't any free reign on the budget. Even after today, any major signings would have to go through the president then ownership.

Today's pissing match was mostly Rogers. They didn't see this coming, hired Shapiro as AA's replacement, but Shapiro probably took the job assuming there was prospect depth. AA seen great opportunities to make astute deals to improve, and made the blockbusters. Shapiro had no say considering he belonged to another team, and he got pissed that some of his prospect depth is gone. The ONLY deal the guy could possibly be upset about is the Price deal, but look at the run the Jays made?

Anyway, AA earned the right to have more autonomy, but Rogers already promised his superior that authority, so where do you go from here? If I were Rogers, knowing that it's a double promise, I'd go back to Shapiro and ask if they can go back on their word or budge a bit as AA earned it. If Shapiro didn't budge, offer him some other incentives to do so.

While Rogers was the group that didn't think about the long term ramifications of poaching Shapiro, Shapiro is the one not relinquishing authority. He's as much in fault as ownership.

I am willing to bet that years later, AA will return to the Jays as President.

[bluejays]

Delete. Double post

[adc]

The part that really bugs me about them ripping AA for giving away prospects is that AA is the one who brought all those prospects in. Before our big run in the second half when the jury was still out on AA, the one thing that we knew he had done really well was building up our prospect base. He took us from a team that was in the bottom of the rankings for prospects, and made us the top team in just a couple of seasons. Then he turns all of that into a good product on the field (which is the entire point of having prospects), and he gets slammed for it.

Rogers has themselves quite the little mess to clean up here.

When were the Jays the top team?

[The Big Chill]

When were the Jays the top team?

I can't find the article, but they we're ranked the top of the AL when they still had the big 3 in their prospect pool. Its all pretty subjective, of course, but they were considered among the top teams.

[adc]

I can't find the article, but they we're ranked the top of the AL when they still had the big 3 in their prospect pool. Its all pretty subjective, of course, but they were considered among the top teams.

Ok.

I wasn't challenging you just wondering what year that I was.

I went with baseball America and saw they were 4 and 5 in 2011 and 2012 which was higher than I remembered them being so was interested to see when and who had them ranked higher.

[JiriHrdina]

Just to be clear, you mean Mark Shapiro's ego, not AA's, right?

Yes. Absolutely.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I don't think AA is perfect but he got this team back to the playoffs. What bugs me about it is what caused this. Ego. Nothing more. Control and ego.
Nothing good ever happens when that is the fuel.
They had so much momentum built up and good will from a fun season - and a great deal of that has been erased instantly.
Why?
Because of one man's huge ego.
Dumb, stupid and dumb.

I think Shapiro's ego definitely has something to do with, but I think a bigger part is Rogers. I would bet AA had a talk with Rogers about next year and going forward and he didn't like what he heard about the payroll. You could tell he wasn't happy last week when someone asked him about payroll and he flat out told them that was out of his control and they'd have to ask Rogers that question.

After showing what he can do with some resources, probably wasn't a fan of being told he was going to given the resources to finish what he started. He's now in a position of strength with other opportunities and decided to leave before the Shine starts to wear off him when he's back to being budget constrained.

All my opinion of course, but it's consistent with past actions and the constant frugality of Rogers being brought up in the US media that isn't bitting the hand that feeds them.

[browna]

Probably Rogers to blame here when dust is settled. But a tough situation all around.

Shapiro had to have been made promises when he got lured away from Cleveland after such a long time here, that there was a challenge, both on the business side, but especially on the baseball side. Thus, likley given full autonomy for a lot of things, including the roster as part of the terms of his hiring.

AA always wanted autonomy, but was handcuffed by the Rogers purse strings and by Beeston's 5 year rule of FA's. Finally, when the trade deadlines of all trade deadline pulls a 50-51 team into a hit away from a Game 7 of an ALCS series 3 month later, I am sure he felt that vindication that, if he had the money to spend and some of the shackles loosened, and full power to make moves, he could do even more.

If he had a contract here for a couple more years, I don't think he'd be gone. Reports are he was offered a one or two year deal in the summer which was too short, which then got pushed to 5 after the success.

I think he knows that over the next 5 years Rogers is not going to be opening the wallets up, and that's too long a term to be spinning wheels.

And lets not make him out to be a patron saint. He finished 5 games about 500 in his 6 years here with a lot of moves so/so (again, partly due to Rogers I am sure), and Rogers, as mentioned, was not going to be splashing out cash each season or trade deadline...they didn't do it last year after promising to add to the roster at the trade deadline if they were close...and didn't, and the team tailspinned out of contention. This year, he managed to do the big deal, but those can't be done every year. Sure, Donaldson was a great move, but again, before Tulo/Price etc arrived, they were 4th in the AL East.

Bottom line, AA felt he deserved full control of the roster (or desires that), but the combination of Shapiro wielding all the power as part of the terms of his hire 2 months ago, and the likelihood of Rogers spending money that AA wants, figures he doesn't need to work under those conditions for another half decade.

Don't blame him, nor do I blame Shapiro...again, if he had a year left, he'd be back.

Interesting to see the fallout. Gibby back? Can't see it. How does the roster take this? Toronto isn't a FA destination, and anyone excited to play in TO after the run may have second thoughts when the GM goes (no matter how agreeable to all parties it was).

[Gundo]

http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4659623-alex-anthopoulos-executive-of-year-blue-jays-sporting-news?modid=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F&&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F

Sporting News names Anthopoulos MLB Exec of the year........ Awkward.

[Finny61]

I'm inclined to guess that AA and Beeston knew they were gone at end of the season, so once at the half they figure let's give it a shot and go for some big deals and roll the dice because its probably over. But then it all worked, Jays go deep and now the buzz is huge. Shapiro is already courted by Rogers to come in. Shapiro's ego starts blasting AA for the moves. AA doesn't get the autonomy and walks. Rogers look like they screwed up. Gibbons won't go before start of the season because it would be yet another PR mess, Rogers looks stupid enough right now.

[adc]

Why is Shapiro's ego a problem here?

Isn't he just doing what Rogers hired him to do?

[Drake]

@Buster_ESPN:

A little candidate to work in the TOR front office under Mark Shapiro is Ross Atkins, who is the Indians current VP of player personal.

[JayP]

Why is Shapiro's ego a problem here?

Isn't he just doing what Rogers hired him to do?

Yeah, I don't see how this is on Shapiro at all. The reason he left Cleveland is because he wanted to get his toes back in baseball operations. He accepted the job here based on having final say in baseball decisions. Just because the Jays finally had a bit of success, he's supposed to relinquish that control he was promised and essentially uproot his family for nothing?

He was only hired in August, but I'm sure he was wooed well before that. It's a very unfortunate situation all around where I'm sure Rogers made the decision to move in a different direction from AA before the Jays caught fire and they were already in negotiations with several options. The problem here is optics. The Jays essentially hired AA's replacement while he was still with the team. I don't know how you make that transition without it being messy.

[Roof-Daddy]

Yeah, I don't see how this is on Shapiro at all. The reason he left Cleveland is because he wanted to get his toes back in baseball operations. He accepted the job here based on having final say in baseball decisions. Just because the Jays finally had a bit of success, he's supposed to relinquish that control he was promised and essentially uproot his family for nothing?

He was only hired in August, but I'm sure he was wooed well before that. It's a very unfortunate situation all around where I'm sure Rogers made the decision to move in a different direction from AA before the Jays caught fire and they were already in negotiations with several options. The problem here is optics. The Jays essentially hired AA's replacement while he was still with the team. I don't know how you make that transition without it being messy.

It also begs the question, when did this supposed one and only meeting between Shapiro and AA take place? The "scolding" would make more sense if it was before the Jays won the AL East and came two wins from making the World Series.

[Caged Great]

If the meeting occurred in say August, then it would make sense.

If it happened last week, then it's ridiculous.

[howard_the_duck]

It also begs the question, when did this supposed one and only meeting between Shapiro and AA take place? The "scolding" would make more sense if it was before the Jays won the AL East and came two wins from making the World Series.

The rumored meeting was supposed to have taken place in September. Mind you, I also heard on the Birds All Day podcast that it's also been speculated that a meeting never ever did take place between AA and Shapiro.

[adc]

As a non-Jays fan I will ask a question again:

Why does it matter when the conversation happened?

If Shapiro's policy/philiosphy is that you build a team through prospects and development then he isn't ever going to like the move AA made?

Sure it was an exciting ride but it didn't result in a World Series win or even appearance so it is up for criticism.

Shapiro isn't and shouldn't be a fan. The fact that is was the best season in 22 years or a ride the fans had been waiting for shouldn't matter to him.

If he thought it was the wrong move and not the way he wants to do business then he should tell AA should he not? Whether in August or two days ago?

[JayP]

The rumored meeting was supposed to have taken place in September. Mind you, I also heard on the Birds All Day podcast that it's also been speculated that a meeting never ever did take place between AA and Shapiro.

Yeah, Drew said he's heard that AA and Shapiro have never actually sat down and talked. That could be wrong, but it's just as baseless as the "scolding" meeting that people talk like it's fact.

It does beg the question - why is something like that just leaking out now? In today's media world, it seems pretty odd for a reporter to get a juicy tidbit like that and just keep it quiet.

[jayswin]

Yeah, Drew said he's heard that AA and Shapiro have never actually sat down and talked. That could be wrong, but it's just as baseless as the "scolding" meeting that people talk like it's fact.

It does beg the question - why is something like that just leaking out now? In today's media world, it seems pretty odd for a reporter to get a juicy tidbit like that and just keep it quiet.

Depends on where it came from. If a reporter directly knew about it and didn't report it until now, then yeah that's fishy. But if a media member got it from a source, which is more likely, then it makes sense that a source may not have given that up until now.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Yeah, Drew said he's heard that AA and Shapiro have never actually sat down and talked. That could be wrong, but it's just as baseless as the "scolding" meeting that people talk like it's fact.

It does beg the question - why is something like that just leaking out now? In today's media world, it seems pretty odd for a reporter to get a juicy tidbit like that and just keep it quiet.

Because nothing leaks out with Rogers on the Jays. It's all fluff and bull#### because they control the majority of the media sources in Canada. It only really comes out when the US media picks up on something and starts to dig in. Given AA is baseball executive of the year, this is a story they were interested in. TSN's entire MLB coverage is a re-branded pick up from ESPN, so the only non-bias reporting we'll get in Canada, doesn't really give much insight on the Jays other than recapping the games. Normally the story you'd be hearing is "AA leaves Jays despite being offered market contract from his hometown team" and that would be the end of it. Nothing that could potentially make Rogers look bad at all.

I've been listening to MLB coverage on serious XM for years. Sportsnet's rosy picture of the Blue Jays and their ownership is not the picture league insiders who aren't on Rogers payroll have of the organization. Sure you could say they just don't like a Canadian team, but there's too many of their reports that end up being true to chalk it all up to that.

- Bautista refusing to talk to SN over "suit gate": Not a peep until US media picked up on it

- The whole Beeston scenario. The Canadian media just gives a complete pass on this, but this was devastating to the Jays already terrible reputation. As reported throughout the US, Rogers went behind Beeston's back (and the whole baseball operations) and tried to replace him with Kenny Williams. The only reason the Jays didn't get in huge trouble over this is that the White Sox owner (Jerry Reinsdorf) said he had too much respect for Paul Beeston to force MLBs hand on this. Rogers than duplicated this lunacy by doing the same thing with Dan Duquette. The only reason Shapiro is here now and not Duquette is Baltimore basically told Rogers that if this continued they were going to be handing over all their high draft picks and prospects for the forseable future to avoid a tampering charge. I have no problem with the Jays getting rid of Beeston, but the way it was handled was deplorable.

- Last year's trade deadline: SN reporting Jays are highly active on the market and looking for multiple upgrades. US media reporting two weeks before the deadline that Rogers will not approve any increase in budget and AA is telling all major league teams Jays will not be active. This was despite the promised they had made to the team at spring training. We all know how that turned out come deadline day.

- Sportsnet reports Ervin Santana signs with Jays, only to later say he had a change of heart: US reports Ervin Santana had agreed to sign with Jays but when he heard that the Jays had asked multiple players to restructure their deals to afford it without him knowing, he rejected the offer, and it may not have been approved by the MLBPA anyways. It is later determined the US reports were accurate.

- 2 Years ago Sportsnet Reporting Jays are all in on Garza with AA sparking the fire. US media asks Garza if he's considering Toronto, and he confirms that he's never even been approached by the Jays for a conversation, let alone close to signing. You can actually repeat this story for multiple players over the past 3-4 years.

- And on, and on, and on.

At the end of the day, from a pure baseball perspective, I honestly couldn't care if Anthopolous is here or not. He's made some good trades, but for every good one, I can counter with a bad one. I also think he's getting way too much credit for this year's run. Anyone could have traded the prospects the Jays did and got as good or better players as he did. Not hard to win when your 1-7 hitters are essentially an all-star team, and your division is likely the weakest in baseball. What I care about is this:

1- I think AA just walking away without a number job in place signifies the budget isn't going to be there despite the Toronto market showing what can happen financially when they have a good team to Rogers.

2- The Jays reputation is absolute #### across the league with players and agents. What little goodwill they've built from this run and the trades that looked to be a shift in culture to that of an organization willing to do what it takes to win, is now completely gone out the window. There's not a free agent in their right mind that would sign in Toronto after having seen AA going from jumping up and down with champaign bottles with the players, to walking away less than a month later.

Rogers running a baseball team is an outright clown show. Their business model does not translate into the world of professional baseball. Even when you think things may change, they wont.

[adc]

Because nothing leaks out with Rogers on the Jays. It's all fluff and bull#### because they control the majority of the media sources in Canada.


Have you listened to a Sportsnet radio or TV show? You would think the Jays just let Scott Bowman at the end of his 5 year Cup run with the Canadians go with the way they are talking about AA. Throw in the crap they are spewing about Shapiro and its hard to see how they are in any way being muzzled by Rogers.

2- The Jays reputation is absolute #### across the league with players and agents. What little goodwill they've built from this run and the trades that looked to be a shift in culture to that of an organization willing to do what it takes to win, is now completely gone out the window. There's not a free agent in their right mind that would sign in Toronto after having seen AA going from jumping up and down with champaign bottles with the players, to walking away less than a month later.

BS

Free Agents go where the money is. Florida has crapped on players and fans more than any other organization and they signed Buerhle, Reyes and Stanton to FA deals recently. If Rogers is willing to pay they will get FA's, if not they won't. That has zero to do with keeping AA this year or not.

[Jason14h]

Free Agents go where the money is. Florida has crapped on players and fans more than any other organization and they signed Buerhle, Reyes and Stanton to FA deals recently. If Rogers is willing to pay they will get FA's, if not they won't. That has zero to do with keeping AA this year or not.

The issue is contracts are so huge now, it isn't just about money. And for the players it is, teams can outbid the Jays.

So the Jays either massively overpay or don't get FA's. I strongly disagreethat AA leaving doesn't hurts their chances at FA's.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Have you listened to a Sportsnet radio or TV show? You would think the Jays just let Scott Bowman at the end of his 5 year Cup run with the Canadians go with the way they are talking about AA. Throw in the crap they are spewing about Shapiro and its hard to see how they are in any way being muzzled by Rogers.



BS

Free Agents go where the money is. Florida has crapped on players and fans more than any other organization and they signed Buerhle, Reyes and Stanton to FA deals recently. If Rogers is willing to pay they will get FA's, if not they won't. That has zero to do with keeping AA this year or not.

For the Jays to sign a free agent, they will have to not just pay the ridiculous contracts, they will have to significantly outbid other teams significantly because their reputation is garbage. AA leaving is not going to do anything to fix this reputation. It's not the City of Toronto that's the reason for players not wanting to play there, it's the reputation the organization has around the league. MLBPA polls consistently shines in favour of Toronto. So why when it comes time to sign someone, does Toronto get the short end of the stick and has been since Rogers took over? People will automatically point towards taxes, but that is complete BS. A player playing in California or New York will take home less than they do in Ontario, and there are many other states who are on par.

Florida is a terrible example. Miami sells itself. Most players live in the area in the off-season with their families already entrenched in the communities. They can make huge money, live in a jurisdiction with no personal income taxes, and not a single person cares about baseball in Miami, so they can stay relatively low key while living like a celebrity on South Beach. The City also has a very hispanic flavour and culture which is a major selling point to a lot of the league. There's a not a team in the league that can offer what the Marlins can.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Here's how the Jays offseason is going to play out. We'll see how right or wrong I am. I hope I am wrong.

- Overpay and resign Estrada on a short term deal (3 years)
- Pick up options on Dickey, Bautista, and Encarncacion
- Make a half-assed effort on Price just to say they did and say he chose to go elsewhere.
- Float rumours on sportsnet saying they are in on multiple household name pitchers then say they could not reach a deal.
- Trade Tulo ( or another big contract roster player) for some Middle of the road starter who is young, some upside, and under team control and a small contract claiming they couldn't get a fa deal done and they are dealing from a position of strength ( offence )

[Caged Great]

I fully expect nothing but half measures that spin the tires and the two or three things that need to be done to be a top team will not be taken care of (2 #3 at least starters and maybe a good lefty bat.)

[bluejays]

I'm starting to believe more and more that at the very least Encarnacion is gone. Between him and Bautista they're both aging, have some nagging injury woes, but put up very big numbers and are FA's next year. What better time to deal them than now? If Shapiro likes prospects so much those are two guys you could deal and get a kings ransom. I wouldn't be against it. I'd be against just holding with the pitching as is. The area that's costing us games is pitching (relief and starting). Having taken a step back and seeing a lot of the free-swinging this post-season, I'm sure a lot of it was because the lack of confidence in the pitching staff, and the batters feeling they have to do it all themselves. Great pitching would make a huge difference, but there's also a higher chance of a great pitcher getting injured too.

Side note, getting back to the Dickey deal, yeah it wasn't great for us if you were to do it today, but what's so good about D'Arnaud? I've watched him this playoffs and he's not that good. Syndergaard yes, D'Arnaud, not so much. A tad better than your average catcher.

[adc]

Side note, getting back to the Dickey deal, yeah it wasn't great for us if you were to do it today, but what's so good about D'Arnaud? I've watched him this playoffs and he's not that good. Syndergaard yes, D'Arnaud, not so much. A tad better than your average catcher.

I don't watch the Mets much but I heard a MLB analyst on the radio the other day saying he was good at calling a game, great pitch framer and is working really well with the young pitchers.

[Jason14h]

D'Arnaud, not so much. A tad better than your average catcher.

Did you see what the Jays had to pay to get Martin here?

Catchers who can hit are the 2nd rarest thing in baseball behind left handed aces!

[bluejays]

You're probably right. I just don't see him on Martin's level. Just above average at this point in his career from the little I've seen, admittedly.

Anyway, today Rogers' CEO son released a pretty heartfelt message about AA (I thought), which refuted that his role would've changed. I would imagine they wouldn't blatantly lie about such a thing, so I do believe the statement. So I think that narrows down to 3 things AA walked away from:

A) Principle for Rogers' handling of Beaston (the way they treated Beaston was a disaster).
B) Future money invested in the team (I find it hard to believe that Rogers has a long term budget so I don't think this would really be an issue).
C) In initial meetings with Shapiro, he was likely told he had to deal a player he had no interest in dealing for the sake of getting younger or something. That type of player who AA likely had a bond with was Bautista.

Pure speculation on my part, but I think it's more C than anything else. Rogers can be cheap, but I don't think budget cuts are in store. I don't see them breaking the bank either, so it comes down to AA not wanting to deal a player he probably likes.

[jayswin]

I'm willing to bet a lot of money budget cuts are in store. Rogers is Rogers, imo.

[Caged Great]

I wouldn't be shocked if they cut the payroll either.

[Roof-Daddy]

Josh Donaldson wins the Hank Aaron award as the top offensive player in the AL.

Good for him.

[TheAlpineOracle]

So reports are coming out that Rogers have given zero increase in the budget from last year. That gives them 32 million this offseason to sign 2-3 starting pitchers, en every day first baseman, an entire bullpen, and a closer if they move Osuna. Rumours also floating Revere will not be tendered and Maicer Izturis will be bought out.

Hope we enjoyed the run this year, because it could be another 22 years before we see another one.

[JiriHrdina]

I thought Izturis was a club option - why does he need to be bought out.
Where are these rumors coming from? Link? Source?

And why on earth would they move Osuna?

This seems to be a remarkably negative opinion with nothing to really back it up.

[Roof-Daddy]

He probably means move Osuna to the starting rotation.

[JiriHrdina]

Ah!

[jayswin]

As negative as it sounds, it's very likely. As fun as this year was, a media giant as crappy as Rogers simply isn't going to be the Yankees and spend every year with pure desire to win championships.

Not to be very pessimistic but my view of the future isn't very optimistic. You heard rumblings this past season that players were starting to get vocal about their disdain for Rogers and their lack of commitment to winning, so they caved and allowed AA to go for it this year.

Imo, they never had plans to continue the spending no matter how much success came from it. So what will likely happen now is we'll be in the hole due to some of our stars becoming FA's, who'll be replaced by far less skilled players on a budget, which will in turn deflate and piss off the remaining stars. Then we'll likely see one or two of them traded because they don't want to be here. Bautista and Tulo come to mind.

I hope that's all wrong, but spaces between the lines so far this off season seem to be a little too clear, and I think we'll see the Yankees and Red Sox (who will likely reload this off season) go back to the strong one two punch in the AL east, and we'll go back to battling it out with the Oriels and Rays for nothing but maybe a faint shot a wild card.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I thought Izturis was a club option - why does he need to be bought out.
Where are these rumors coming from? Link? Source?

And why on earth would they move Osuna?

This seems to be a remarkably negative opinion with nothing to really back it up.

All from various articles on bluebird banter (Jays fan website).

Osuna is pencilled in to start next year as things Currently stand. So is Sanchez. Bullpen is effectively completely gone with Hawkins retirement.

[TheAlpineOracle]

As negative as it sounds, it's very likely. As fun as this year was, a media giant as crappy as Rogers simply isn't going to be the Yankees and spend every year with pure desire to win championships.

Not to be very pessimistic but my view of the future isn't very optimistic. You heard rumblings this past season that players were starting to get vocal about their disdain for Rogers and their lack of commitment to winning, so they caved and allowed AA to go for it this year.

Imo, they never had plans to continue the spending no matter how much success came from it. So what will likely happen now is we'll be in the hole due to some of our stars becoming FA's, who'll be replaced by far less skilled players on a budget, which will in turn deflate and piss off the remaining stars. Then we'll likely see one or two of them traded because they don't want to be here. Bautista and Tulo come to mind.

I hope that's all wrong, but spaces between the lines so far this off season seem to be a little too clear, and I think we'll see the Yankees and Red Sox (who will likely reload this off season) go back to the strong one two punch in the AL east, and we'll go back to battling it out with the Oriels and Rays for nothing but maybe a faint shot a wild card.

Bautista and Edwin are gone next year regardless. 2017 is when the budget cuts start. After next year without major spending and sudden willingness of players to work for Rogers, things are pretty bleak. No prospects left.

Also, I'm not so sure Rogers had anything to Do with this year's run. The more I think about it, the more I think Beeston said screw it I'm going out with a bang after the way you screwed me over and gave AA the go ahead. This is what lead the the friction between AA and Shapiro. This wasn't the plan at all when Shapiro was brought in. Rogers is hands off on baseball except for money. With all the moves the Jays made, they never really went above their budget. Reyes made more than Tulo, and adding Price and Revere was a short term salary pickup and AA had continually said they did have some room in their budget to add if need be. I'm not sure Rogers would be consulted at all so long as budget was left on track. As long as Beeston was good with it, they probably were.

[Hockey Fan #751]

As negative as it sounds, it's very likely. As fun as this year was, a media giant as crappy as Rogers simply isn't going to be the Yankees and spend every year with pure desire to win championships.

Not to be very pessimistic but my view of the future isn't very optimistic. You heard rumblings this past season that players were starting to get vocal about their disdain for Rogers and their lack of commitment to winning, so they caved and allowed AA to go for it this year.

Imo, they never had plans to continue the spending no matter how much success came from it. So what will likely happen now is we'll be in the hole due to some of our stars becoming FA's, who'll be replaced by far less skilled players on a budget, which will in turn deflate and piss off the remaining stars. Then we'll likely see one or two of them traded because they don't want to be here. Bautista and Tulo come to mind.

I hope that's all wrong, but spaces between the lines so far this off season seem to be a little too clear, and I think we'll see the Yankees and Red Sox (who will likely reload this off season) go back to the strong one two punch in the AL east, and we'll go back to battling it out with the Oriels and Rays for nothing but maybe a faint shot a wild card.

Yankees and Red Sox have been trying to reload for a few years now. I think they're both spinning their wheels a little right now (Yankees more so than Red Sox). Way too many holes in the Yankees lineup to really expect them to be more than a fringe division winner or wild card next season.

Red Sox might be a little better just because they have some young talent that could improve but I don't see all their solutions in free agency for a one-year turnaround, either.

I think the Jays will do everything they can to be competitive next season. Think about how much money Rogers made in this run. For Rogers it's about the money. Sellouts, TV ratings, a crapload of market share from TSN, etc. It makes too much sense to try and be competitive.

[JiriHrdina]

All from various articles on bluebird banter (Jays fan website).

Osuna is pencilled in to start next year as things Currently stand. So is Sanchez. Bullpen is effectively completely gone with Hawkins retirement.

So are these legit articles or fan blogs

[jayswin]

All from various articles on bluebird banter (Jays fan website).

Osuna is pencilled in to start next year as things Currently stand. So is Sanchez. Bullpen is effectively completely gone with Hawkins retirement.

I'm not a fan of moving Osuna into a starting position, both for his development and team success. He's been very solid as a closer and gives us one of the bets in the league. As a starter it seems a little early in his career and if he loses confidence and struggles it could really kill his progression and every thing that's gone right so far in his career.

It also kills our bullpen and requires us to spend decent money on a closer that will hopefully be as good as Osuna was this year. If this happens it seems very rushed and not the right way to develop him and will likely be a financial decision over a development decision, as he started to look shaky after about 5 batters when he went multiple innings this season.

I'm no expert but he seems like the type of player you bring along slowly, he's only 20 years old. God I hope this team isn't in shambles next year. I'll be as optimistic as I can, but it's tough.

[TheAlpineOracle]

So are these legit articles or fan blogs

Mixture of both. That said, the articles posted are not fan blogs like me and you are doing here per say. Despite not being on sportsnet or tsb, alot are accredited media members. They often break weaver wire news and trafe discussions before the main stream media does. Obviously they are wrong sometimes, but that site as a whole is pretty reputable.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I'm not a fan of moving Osuna into a starting position, both for his development and team success. He's been very solid as a closer and gives us one of the bets in the league. As a starter it seems a little early in his career and if he loses confidence and struggles it could really kill his progression and every thing that's gone right so far in his career.

It also kills our bullpen and requires us to spend decent money on a closer that will hopefully be as good as Osuna was this year. If this happens it seems very rushed and not the right way to develop him and will likely be a financial decision over a development decision, as he started to look shaky after about 5 batters when he went multiple innings this season.

I'm no expert but he seems like the type of player you bring along slowly, he's only 20 years old. God I hope this team isn't in shambles next year. I'll be as optimistic as I can, but it's tough.

If the Jays see Osuna as a starter, keeping him in the bullpen is the worst possible way to develop him. Generally never works. The Yankees absolutely ruined Chamberlans doing that to him when he was younger. I fear the Jays have already ruined Sanchez switching him back and fourth.

[TheAlpineOracle]

TSN (Rick Westhead), now also reporting Jays budget will remain unchanged from previous year. Will be around 125m again. This would currently pu them at the 10-11 spot in MLB and not even in the stratosphere of the top 6. Says Rogers will point towards exchange rate to Justify.

If they keep the same budget, by the seasons starts their budget is likely to be in the lower half of the league as player salaries are escalating and the other teams in their range are expected to spend.


I don't expect Toronto to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees, but they can and should be spending more when it makes sense. It makes sense now. This is not a small market team.

[Hockey Fan #751]

TSN (Rick Westhead), now also reporting Jays budget will remain unchanged from previous year. Will be around 125m again. This would currently pu them at the 10-11 spot in MLB and not even in the stratosphere of the top 6. Says Rogers will point towards exchange rate to Justify.

If they keep the same budget, by the seasons starts their budget is likely to be in the lower half of the league as player salaries are escalating and the other teams in their range are expected to spend.


I don't expect Toronto to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees, but they can and should be spending more when it makes sense. It makes sense now. This is not a small market team.

$180 million Canadian is a lot (Westhead said $140 m). I think that only three teams had more than $180 million US as their payroll. Jays started last season at $122 million. It's an increase.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

125m is more than fair with the exchange rate what it is. Hopefully that's true.

[Caged Great]

$180 million Canadian is a lot (Westhead said $140 m). I think that only three teams had more than $180 million US as their payroll. Jays started last season at $122 million. It's an increase.

It is an increase, but they also saw an unexpected 100 million dollar bump in profits from july on. Not reinvesting some of that is a joke.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Rogers is also hedged on fx in the Jays and corporately as a whole. So fx is a mute point.

[TheAlpineOracle]

It is an increase, but they also saw an unexpected 100 million dollar bump in profits from july on. Not reinvesting some of that is a joke.

Yup, that is the problem with corporate ownership in baseball. Nothing is reinvested back into the team. Conflicting objectives. Will never have a perennial winning team without any reinvestment.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Yup, that is the problem with corporate ownership in baseball. Nothing is reinvested back into the team. Conflicting objectives. Will never have a perennial winning team without any reinvestment.
While that may be true, if they still plan to have a top 5/10 payroll I really don't see what there is to complain about.

Plenty of teams make it work with less, no reason the Jays can't.

[Caged Great]

Plenty of teams make it work with less, no reason the Jays can't.

And that's why the Jays haven't made the playoffs in 22 years prior to this one.

Either they don't spend enough money on prospect acquisition, which was a huge problem under JP Riccardi and Gord Ash, or they don't spend the extra 15-20 million to have all the bases covered on the Major league team. If they spend 140, which is what they spent last year, they will either need two good pen arms, a starter, or both. Making do means they will be an 80-85 win team again, and not good enough to make the playoffs.

It is fine to do with less when you've got a lot of good young talent coming up. The Jays don't have anyone other than Pompey and Alford (two outfielders) that are close in the upper part of the depth chart. You could save 7 million I guess if you trade Revere for someone and have Pompey be the LF, but he's not going to get you much as they didn't really give up anything of note to get him in the first place.

Just going to be nothing but half measures and more middling baseball. No lessons learned.

[GirlySports]

TSN (Rick Westhead), now also reporting Jays budget will remain unchanged from previous year. Will be around 125m again. This would currently pu them at the 10-11 spot in MLB and not even in the stratosphere of the top 6. Says Rogers will point towards exchange rate to Justify.

If they keep the same budget, by the seasons starts their budget is likely to be in the lower half of the league as player salaries are escalating and the other teams in their range are expected to spend.


I don't expect Toronto to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees, but they can and should be spending more when it makes sense. It makes sense now. This is not a small market team.


And that's why the Jays haven't made the playoffs in 22 years prior to this one.

Either they don't spend enough money on prospect acquisition, which was a huge problem under JP Riccardi and Gord Ash, or they don't spend the extra 15-20 million to have all the bases covered on the Major league team. If they spend 140, which is what they spent last year, they will either need two good pen arms, a starter, or both. Making do means they will be an 80-85 win team again, and not good enough to make the playoffs.

It is fine to do with less when you've got a lot of good young talent coming up. The Jays don't have anyone other than Pompey and Alford (two outfielders) that are close in the upper part of the depth chart. You could save 7 million I guess if you trade Revere for someone and have Pompey be the LF, but he's not going to get you much as they didn't really give up anything of note to get him in the first place.

Just going to be nothing but half measures and more middling baseball. No lessons learned.

That's just bad GM if 140 million is spent and they still need 3 arms.
Now the farm is totally depleted there really isn't a future.

[TheAlpineOracle]

That's just bad GM if 140 million is spent and they still need 3 arms.
Now the farm is totally depleted there really isn't a future.

There's about 10 teams in and around the Jays payroll. A lot of which are considerably smaller markets. Spending 120-140M on Salary is basically middle of the road next year with anticipated rising player costs. There's basically ten teams above the Jays, 10 teams in and around the Jays, and 10 teams in the abyss (which the the Jays will be back down to in 2018). This 140M they are talking about was what the Jays salary was at the end of the year. They didn't pay out 140M, Rever/Price/Hawkins were pro-rated payouts, but not pro-rated in this 140M amount they are coming up with.

The Jays have the resources/fans/market to remain profitable while being a top 5 team in spending each year. The problem is that when you are owed by a corporation, just being profitable isn't enough. Maximization of profits for return on shareholder investments is the key goal corporately. Doesn't mesh in MLB at all. Rogers aren't putting a dime back into the team. All of the profits go directly to their corporate bottom line and on to the shareholders. You cannot be a successful franchise when this is the case.

[TheAlpineOracle]

While that may be true, if they still plan to have a top 5/10 payroll I really don't see what there is to complain about.

Plenty of teams make it work with less, no reason the Jays can't.

What teams make it worse routinely with less? The model franchises for yearly success are San Francisco, Boston, Yankees, St. Louis, Dodgers, Anaheim, Washington, and Detroit. All of these teams accept for St. Louis have significantly higher payrolls than the Blue Jays. St. Louis spends about the same as Toronto, but doesn't play in a the AL East where the majority of the mega spenders reside.


You can throw up Kansas and the Mets, but they are not routinely successful and they are full of players on their rookie deals. These are going to be 200M payroll teams when their entry level deals expire . Christ the Mets are going to have to dump 100M on pitching alone in the near future if they wish to keep it together. We'll see if Kansas keeps its team together. My guess is they won't as deals start to expire. They have budgetary constraints much like the Jays, but they are a small market team with probably 3/4 less of a fan base than the Jays have.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

What teams make it worse routinely with less? The model franchises for yearly success are San Francisco, Boston, Yankees, St. Louis, Dodgers, Anaheim, Washington, and Detroit. All of these teams accept for St. Louis have significantly higher payrolls than the Blue Jays. St. Louis spends about the same as Toronto, but doesn't play in a the AL East where the majority of the mega spenders reside.


You can throw up Kansas and the Mets, but they are not routinely successful and they are full of players on their rookie deals. These are going to be 200M payroll teams when their entry level deals expire . Christ the Mets are going to have to dump 100M on pitching alone in the near future if they wish to keep it together. We'll see if Kansas keeps its team together. My guess is they won't as deals start to expire. They have budgetary constraints much like the Jays, but they are a small market team with probably 3/4 less of a fan base than the Jays have.

Teams routinely do make it with less (like you point out as well) but I agree it is impossible to sustain, while keeping all the same players anyway. It remains to be seen what they will do this off season, so I'm not going to get too excited about it... yet. They need to fill some holes in their starting rotation and bullpen, if they don't do that, yes I'll be pissed. There are other ways to fill holes besides signing free agents though so I don't think it's time to panic yet necessarily. Lets just see what they do over the next 5 months.

Last year, 9 teams had a higher payroll than the Jays. Not one advanced as far as the Jays did. 6 missed the payoffs completely, 2 were eliminated in the divisional series and one lost in the WC game. Every year it seems that multiple top 10 payroll teams miss the playoffs and a couple mid/small markets squeeze in. Maybe it's not the same teams every year and yes, money will fix a lot of things, but I just don't think it's as black and white as you make it seem IMO. It's more important you maximize the resources you do have than to worry about what the other teams are doing. Especially since most of them seem to employ a shot gun approach to financial management anyway, wasting tons of money (and their inherent advantage) in the process. There's lots of good, available players not making big bucks yet, the key is to find and target those guys.

The tone of this thread surprises me. Pretty doom and gloom for all the success the Jays just had. Yes, next year will likely not be the same and yes, the farm has been depleted, but those aren't reasons to lose hope. AA is gone, Shapiro is in, I'm pissed at that personally but i also realize that it doesn't preclude us from ever having success again either. Also, even if next year goes off the rails, we have some great trade assets that could re-stock the farm nicely (for those who think we have no future). Things are hardly as dire as some make it seem around here.

[adc]

What teams make it worse routinely with less? The model franchises for yearly success are San Francisco, Boston, Yankees, St. Louis, Dodgers, Anaheim, Washington, and Detroit. All of these teams accept for St. Louis have significantly higher payrolls than the Blue Jays. St. Louis spends about the same as Toronto, but doesn't play in a the AL East where the majority of the mega spenders reside.


You can throw up Kansas and the Mets, but they are not routinely successful and they are full of players on their rookie deals. These are going to be 200M payroll teams when their entry level deals expire . Christ the Mets are going to have to dump 100M on pitching alone in the near future if they wish to keep it together. We'll see if Kansas keeps its team together. My guess is they won't as deals start to expire. They have budgetary constraints much like the Jays, but they are a small market team with probably 3/4 less of a fan base than the Jays have.

Are people still using this BS excuse?

[GirlySports]

I think Toronto has it a bit backwards. Teams like Kansas City, Tampa Bay in the past and Chicago Cubs in the future ride their youngsters into the playoffs and deal with the consequences once those contracts expire. Yes Kansas City will need to blow it up at some point but they've already got two World Series appearances. San Francisco used Sandoval as much as they could and then let him go once he was useless. They are reloading for next year.

Toronto was doing the opposite. Those teams above would never trade a cheap prospect like Hechavarria. Toronto trades him for Reyes which is 20 million more and has a bad wheel. And in that trade they add Buerhle and Johnson, another 30 million. Then they add Dickey that's 15 more million. That still only got them to .500 so of course Rogers is not happy.

Fire of the Phoenix: no doom and gloom here. If Shipiro can get a good GM I think they'll be better off without AA but it'll take a year or two.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I think Toronto has it a bit backwards. Teams like Kansas City, Tampa Bay in the past and Chicago Cubs in the future ride their youngsters into the playoffs and deal with the consequences once those contracts expire. Yes Kansas City will need to blow it up at some point but they've already got two World Series appearances. San Francisco used Sandoval as much as they could and then let him go once he was useless. They are reloading for next year.

Toronto was doing the opposite. Those teams above would never trade a cheap prospect like Hechavarria. Toronto trades him for Reyes which is 20 million more and has a bad wheel. And in that trade they add Buerhle and Johnson, another 30 million. Then they add Dickey that's 15 more million. That still only got them to .500 so of course Rogers is not happy.

Fire of the Phoenix: no doom and gloom here. If Shipiro can get a good GM I think they'll be better off without AA but it'll take a year or two.

This is the exact thing I'm talking about. If they make smarter decisions, they don't need to have a 180m+ payroll. You can't have middling players making that kind of coin.

You are right, they did seem to go about it backwards to an extent. I wonder how much of that was at the direction of ownership though? Up to that point, AA did not seem like that kind of a GM at all. He seemed mostly risk averse while he steadily built up the farm to the point where it was top 3/5 in all of baseball... and then suddenly he made those two trades.

The team clearly wasn't ready yet, but he suddenly started making win now moves anyway. I was so very confused, and still am to be honest. I get that we had two of the best hitters in baseball who were in their 30's but the moves were still completely out of left field for where the team was at overall. Especially considering the guys we got. Dickey was totally an asset management dream from the Mets POV and the Marlins trade was mostly for mediocre and overpaid players. It seemed completely against AA's MO. Still, overall AA's body of work was good outside those two trades, hopefully Shapiro isn't a step down.

[Otto-matic]

Jamie Campbell ‏@SNETCampbell 4m
Source: Tony LaCava named GM of #BlueJays.

[GirlySports]

I disagree. I think that was AA's MO. He builds the farm so that it's the top 5 of baseball but the reason for that is to trade those prospects. What's the point of developing 10 pitchers when there are only 3 young starting pitcher spots? And he choose Arencibia so d'Arnauld had nowhere to play.

A team has to be kids or veterans and he chose to be veterans.

[Hockey Fan #751]

Jamie Campbell ‏@SNETCampbell 4m
Source: Tony LaCava named GM of #BlueJays.

I heard just interim, but I would be perfectly fine with him as GM. I want as much of the previous regime to stay as possible because they will be able to build the farm system back up. I have no faith in Shapiro's ability to do that with "his guys".

[Otto-matic]

I heard just interim, but I would be perfectly fine with him as GM. I want as much of the previous regime to stay as possible because they will be able to build the farm system back up. I have no faith in Shapiro's ability to do that with "his guys".

Confirmed

BREAKING: #BlueJays to name Tony LaCava interim general manager. http://ow.ly/U95dw

[TheAlpineOracle]

I think Toronto has it a bit backwards. Teams like Kansas City, Tampa Bay in the past and Chicago Cubs in the future ride their youngsters into the playoffs and deal with the consequences once those contracts expire. Yes Kansas City will need to blow it up at some point but they've already got two World Series appearances. San Francisco used Sandoval as much as they could and then let him go once he was useless. They are reloading for next year.

Toronto was doing the opposite. Those teams above would never trade a cheap prospect like Hechavarria. Toronto trades him for Reyes which is 20 million more and has a bad wheel. And in that trade they add Buerhle and Johnson, another 30 million. Then they add Dickey that's 15 more million. That still only got them to .500 so of course Rogers is not happy.

Fire of the Phoenix: no doom and gloom here. If Shipiro can get a good GM I think they'll be better off without AA but it'll take a year or two.

The fact that we are sitting here comparing Toronto to teams like Kansas and Tampa Bay speaks volumes to what the problems are in Blue Jay land. These are two small market teams you are comparing the Jays to when the Jays play in the third largest market in MLB (without even consideration of the rest of Canada).

Toronto has the ability to spend like a big market team, but they don't because of their bull#### ownership structure. I don't like it, but I could live with that if they flat out said that's what they are going to do, and stuck to the model. The problem is that they don't. They don't spend enough to win, and they don't keep enough talent to build from within which has resulted in the years of mediocrity. Rogers does just enough to keep Jays fans' targets off their telecommunications business so they can continually suck every dollar of profit out of the MLB team. Even when they do increase the payroll a bit, it's a short term counter punch to battle the growing discontent of Jays fans. It's not a strategic baseball move at all (see the Dickey/Reyes trades from a few years ago).



With respect to Sandoval, San Francisco has one of the highest payrolls in baseball. They keep all their players that they value. The reason Sandoval isn't there any more is he's very obese and they were smart enough to realize you can't be signing a professional athlete in poor condition to long term 100M dollar. Not the money that stopped them, it was the term.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I heard just interim, but I would be perfectly fine with him as GM. I want as much of the previous regime to stay as possible because they will be able to build the farm system back up. I have no faith in Shapiro's ability to do that with "his guys".

LaCava is one of Shapiro's guys. Worked for him in Cleveland.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I disagree. I think that was AA's MO. He builds the farm so that it's the top 5 of baseball but the reason for that is to trade those prospects. What's the point of developing 10 pitchers when there are only 3 young starting pitcher spots? And he choose Arencibia so d'Arnauld had nowhere to play.

A team has to be kids or veterans and he chose to be veterans.
Up until that point, it definitely wasn't his MO. Once he made those two trades, he changed the direction of the franchise, and they were officially in win now mode. Before that, he was all about setting up for the future. There's a reason everyone was shocked by those moves, they went against everything he had done up until that point.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Up until that point, it definitely wasn't his MO. Once he made those two trades, he changed the direction of the franchise, and they were officially in win now mode. Before that, he was all about setting up for the future. There's a reason everyone was shocked by those moves, they went against everything he had done up until that point.

When those deals were made, Jays fans were completely disgruntled and the most vocal they ever were about it. Those moves were made to combat that. They made no sense at the time.

[Finger Cookin]

I think it's hilarious that LaCava has been both Assistant GM and Assistant to the GM.

http://static.tumblr.com/527812ec532f37ce4b1ef3acff0257ab/elnmyrr/y9gmgkqre/tumblr_static_dwight-k-schrute.jpg

[ClubFlames]

Shapiro also confirmed that John Gibbons will return next year.

[Tyler]

"Hey Tony, do you want to get paid millions of dollars to be accountable to a boss? You know, like almost every other job imaginable?"

"Yes, I would be quite fine with that Mark."

[troutman]

the Jays play in the third largest market in MLB (without even consideration of the rest of Canada).



4th I think, after NY, LA and CHI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_urban_agglomerations_in_North_ America

[TheAlpineOracle]

4th I think, after NY, LA and CHI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_urban_agglomerations_in_North_ America

GTA surpassed Chicago in size about a year ago ( or so the bus tour I took on Toronto this summerwould have me believe.)

[TheAlpineOracle]

A quick google search shows me that tour was full of crap. Still though, Toronto is the 4th largest market in MLB and all of the 3 markets ahead of them have more than one professional baseball team.

[Parallex]

Okey here's my early thoughts on the Jays for next year...

The Bats: They're going to be even better. All the big bats from this past season are going to be back and we'll hopefully have a healthy Michael Saunders and a healthy Devon Travis to provide even more depth. This team can hit. Full year from an acclimated Tulo will be a big upgrade as well.

The Arms: As "wow" as the bats will be the arms will be what keep us biting our finger nails. Most of the money saved from the departure of Buehrle, Iztarius, and Romero will be eaten up by the players escalating up the arbitration scale (Plus Martin's raise). If we can get Estrada to sign on at 10 per that'll eat up the rest leaving two question marks in the rotation. We can lower that to one if we want to bet on Hutchison being 2014 Hutchison (who was quite good) and not 2015 Hutchison (who was not). If we're going to take from the bullpen we need it to be Osuna as Sanchez has had uninspiring results as a starter at every level (Selfishly I hope Venditte makes the team because... switch-pitcher!).

Palace Intrigue: I like the selection of Lacava (hopefully he'll get to drop the interim). I mean... if you couldn't get AA to re-up then his RH man is the logical choice. Gibby sticking around is good. Shapiro is a bright guy so I'm not bent out of shape about management.

The Farm: Badly need to restock the arms. Considering the derth of quality arms at the high minors I'd recommend heavily scouting NCAA hurlers in prep for the draft.

Functionally I think the Jays can do next year what they did this past year but they're going to have to depend on the results matching talent (AKA not have a mediocre first half record despite the great run differential) because there will be no orgy of rental trades... the Jays don't have the prospect capital to spend anymore.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Okey here's my early thoughts on the Jays for next year...

The Bats: They're going to be even better. All the big bats from this past season are going to be back and we'll hopefully have a healthy Michael Saunders and a healthy Devon Travis to provide even more depth. This team can hit. Full year from an acclimated Tulo will be a big upgrade as well.

The Arms: As "wow" as the bats will be the arms will be what keep us biting our finger nails. Most of the money saved from the departure of Buehrle, Iztarius, and Romero will be eaten up by the players escalating up the arbitration scale (Plus Martin's raise). If we can get Estrada to sign on at 10 per that'll eat up the rest leaving two question marks in the rotation. We can lower that to one if we want to bet on Hutchison being 2014 Hutchison (who was quite good) and not 2015 Hutchison (who was not). If we're going to take from the bullpen we need it to be Osuna as Sanchez has had uninspiring results as a starter at every level (Selfishly I hope Venditte makes the team because... switch-pitcher!).

Palace Intrigue: I like the selection of Lacava (hopefully he'll get to drop the interim). I mean... if you couldn't get AA to re-up then his RH man is the logical choice. Gibby sticking around is good. Shapiro is a bright guy so I'm not bent out of shape about management.

The Farm: Badly need to restock the arms. Considering the derth of quality arms at the high minors I'd recommend heavily scouting NCAA hurlers in prep for the draft.

Functionally I think the Jays can do next year what they did this past year but they're going to have to depend on the results matching talent (AKA not have a mediocre first half record despite the great run differential) because there will be no orgy of rental trades... the Jays don't have the prospect capital to spend anymore.

I agree on the bats, but they need to change their approach to have any change of advancing in the playoffs further. You can't hit 3-4 home runs a game when you are facing 3 all-star caliber pitchers in potentially a large field . Jays have to learn how to manufacture runs without the bomb.

Pitching is in a brutal place right now. There's absolutely no way Estrada signs for less than 15M a year. Rumors out there having his asking price at $15M per year over 4 years. He'll get 15M, the question mark is on the term. I don't think Hutchinson is an answer at all. He is a complete basket case. These problems started in the 2014 season. I see him going the Ricky Romero route. Fortunately for the Jays, these issues reared their ugly ahead before he got paid. Jays need to take Dickey's option, sign 2 starters (ace and a higher end guy), and add a minimum 2 power arms to the bullpen. This is completely not possible if there are no changes to the budget.

If the Jays address the pitching, they will challenge for the AL east again. If not, we are in for a long year which is going to turn into a fire sale by the trade deadline. Edwin, Bautista, Tulo, and Dickey will all be traded to bolster the non-existent farm team we currently have. Quite honestly, I think that was the plan all along (to shed salary), but Beeston and AA's shopping spree and subsequent great results really put a wrench in that.

[GirlySports]

what about Sanchez as a starter again?

[Parallex]

what about Sanchez as a starter again?

Walk way to many guys and doesn't strike out nearly enough. He hasn't excelled as a starter at any level in the minor leagues to say nothing of the majors. He's a bullpen guy.

There's absolutely no way Estrada signs for less than 15M a year.

There's no way he get's 15M. THe Jays will almost certainly offer him a qualifying offer and those kill the market value on anyone who isn't an ace level pitcher and Estrada isn't an ace level pitcher. I think he'll end up at about 10 per on a 3+ year deal.

If the Jays address the pitching, they will challenge for the AL east again. If not, we are in for a long year which is going to turn into a fire sale by the trade deadline.

That's entirely to pessimistic. The Jays first half record did not reflect the actual talent on the team. They can contend with no major offseason additions. If they can somehow wrangle a legit #3 guy into the rotation They ought to be the ALE favorites again.

[Hockey Fan #751]

^^ The Jays won the AL East with a rotation of Hutchison (opening day!), Dickey, Estrada, Buehrle and Norris/Sanchez/Doubront for well over half the year. And that was with Dickey off to a horrid start so even if he pitches below average you're still looking better off next year with:

Stroman, Dickey, Hutch, Sanchez, ?

And that's worst-case scenario.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

^^ The Jays won the AL East with a rotation of Hutchison (opening day!), Dickey, Estrada, Buehrle and Norris/Sanchez/Doubront for well over half the year. And that was with Dickey off to a horrid start so even if he pitches below average you're still looking better off next year with:

Stroman, Dickey, Hutch, Sanchez, ?

And that's worst-case scenario.
That would be one of the worst rotations in baseball IMO.

If they have any desire to repeat as AL East champs, a couple decent starters will have to be brought in. There simply aren't enough quality internal options to fill out an above average rotation.

[Caged Great]

The Jays need to at least have this

1. Stroman
2. Zimmerman/Kazmir type guy to replace Buherle with someone that is slightly better
3. Estrada or another decent #3.
4. Dickey
5. Hutchison/other internal options like Hendricks, Sanchez or Osuna

I am leery of bring Estrada back due to his peripherals being mediocre. Using a corollary to the NHL, Estrada had a Calgary Flames (2014-15) like season. significantly better results than what his talent level is. His advanced stats show he should be a #4/5 guy really. He might repeat, he might not. If you could get someone that is a #3 for more or less the same cost that has a good track record, then that wouldn't be a bad option.

[TheAlpineOracle]

^^ The Jays won the AL East with a rotation of Hutchison (opening day!), Dickey, Estrada, Buehrle and Norris/Sanchez/Doubront for well over half the year. And that was with Dickey off to a horrid start so even if he pitches below average you're still looking better off next year with:

Stroman, Dickey, Hutch, Sanchez, ?

And that's worst-case scenario.

That rotation has the Blue Jays at a .500 level despite a record setting offensive pace. Without the offence that rotation would have the Jays with a Phillies type record. That rotation was the worst in baseball without question. Hutchinson has like 13 wins despite an era that floated with 7.00

[Parallex]

That rotation was the worst in baseball without question.

Giant hyperbole. The Jays Pitching staff was collectively 13th in the major leagues by fWAR. That's decidedly "middle of the road" rather then "worst".

[TheAlpineOracle]

Giant hyperbole. The Jays Pitching staff was collectively 13th in the major leagues by fWAR. That's decidedly "middle of the road" rather then "worst".

That was at the end of the year. Until mid July they were around the bottom of the American league.

Dickey went 8-1 with something close to 2.00 ERA, they added Price, and got some quality start out of Stroman at the end.

Had they continued with Doubrant/Hutchinson/Another plug (Scott Copeland/Matt Boyd), they would have remained at the bottom.

[GirlySports]

the pitching free agent list looks really uninspiring.

[TheAlpineOracle]

the pitching free agent list looks really uninspiring.

Yup, it's essential the Jays resign Price and Estrada. Price is likely the only Ace who would consider Toronto, and I'd say value for money, Estrada is the best of the 2nd tier pitching free agents.

I didn't realize Mark Lowe was a free agent. Our bullpen is looking really scary. I hope they take a long look at O'Day.

[Jiggy_12]

Jays have picked up Dickey's option

[kmart]

Yup, it's essential the Jays resign Price and Estrada. Price is likely the only Ace who would consider Toronto, and I'd say value for money, Estrada is the best of the 2nd tier pitching free agents.

I didn't realize Mark Lowe was a free agent. Our bullpen is looking really scary. I hope they take a long look at O'Day.


:blink:

Really? The guy hates Bautista with a passion.

[Harry Lime]

Pitchers (worth looking at seriously) in the 28M-32M range
Grienke
Price

Pitchers in the 18M-20M range
Zimmerman
Samardzija
Gallardo
Cueto

Pitchers in the 14M-16M range
Doug Fister

Pitchers in the 10M-12M range
Estrada
Anderson
Kennedy
Lohse
Kazmir

Pitchers in the 6M-8M range
Iwakuma
Happ

This is clearly not a comprehensive list, and some of these guys will be picked up by their existing teams. The point of jotting some of these names down is to ask this question. Would you rather have one Price, or spread that money around to two lesser, but serviceable players?

Keep in mind that if less money is spent on one ace pitcher, it's easier to follow the KC model and build a pretty impressive bullpen. Some options next year would be Sean Marshall, Darren O'day, Bobby Parnell, Shawn Kelley, Burke Badenhop, Mark Lowe, Andrew Bailey, or Mike Adams. Having more money to spend could land anywhere from 2 to 4 of these arms.

Note that all possible prices are wild guesses in order to ask a specific question.

[Otto-matic]

The Toronto Blue Jays have exercised the options on Jose Bautista ($14 million), R.A. Dickey ($12 million) and Edwin Encarnacion ($10 million).

[Roof-Daddy]

No surprise at all exercising those options.

[TheAlpineOracle]

:blink:

Really? The guy hates Bautista with a passion.

Is there anyone outside the Blue Jays that doesn't hate Bautista? Mute point anyways, hate quickly goes away when you pull on the jersey.

[TheAlpineOracle]

No surprise at all exercising those options.

Bautista and Edwin are no brainers. Well below market. Dickey is questionable. I'd prefer they let him walk and used that money on someone else, but given the state of their current rotation and the propensity of free agents to avoid Toronto, probably not a risk they could realistically take.

[kmart]

Is there anyone outside the Blue Jays that doesn't hate Bautista? Mute point anyways, hate quickly goes away when you pull on the jersey.

There's something about the guy throwing at Bautista more than once, that doesn't bode well for team chemistry or Bautista's trust in management. We've all seen what a guy like Papelbon can do to a team's chemistry.

I'm all for adding guys that don't like Bautista at this moment in time, but not guys who have chucked at Bautista multiple times in the past. That kind of relationship doesn't bode well for team chemistry especially over a 162 game season.

[TheAlpineOracle]

There's something about the guy throwing at Bautista more than once, that doesn't bode well for team chemistry or Bautista's trust in management. We've all seen what a guy like Papelbon can do to a team's chemistry.

I'm all for adding guys that don't like Bautista at this moment in time, but not guys who have chucked at Bautista multiple times in the past. That kind of relationship doesn't bode well for team chemistry especially over a 162 game season.

I think Bautista is more the Papplebon in your analogy, than O'Day is. I'm sure they'd ask Bautista his thoughts before extending an offer. O"Day wouldn't sign there either if it was going to be an issue.

[Parallex]

I didn't realize Mark Lowe was a free agent. Our bullpen is looking really scary.

As is we'd have a bullpen of...

Aaron Sanchez
Brett Cecil
Liam Hendriks
Aaron Loup
Ryan Tepera
Bo Schultz
Pat Venditte

... that's assuming that Osuna moves to the rotation and nobody else is acquired. That's certainly not ideal but there are some interesting hurlers in there. I'm confident in Sanchez and Cecil (as bullpen arms), Hendriks was a revelation last year, Venditte always has the platoon advantage, Loup had his struggles but reduce his role to Loogy and the source of all his struggles last year disappears (namely a spike in power numbers by RH hitters... lefties slugged .362 against him while RH slugged .510. for perspective every RH he faced turned into Jose Bautista and every lefties was Ryan Goins). It shouldn't be hard (or expensive) to find upgrades on Tepera & Schultz.

[kmart]

There is no way that the Blue Jay's keep both Price and Estrada. Signing Estrada will take away almost half their cap space and I'm assuming that Price will cost 25 + mill. If anything Price is gone and we will sign 1 or 2 starters on the free agent market.

To me, I expect the the rotation to look like:

1. Stro
2. Dickey
3. Estrada/ FA starter
4. Sanchez
5. Hutchison

It's something that I'm okay with, especially with the offence that we have. The only way it looks different from that rotation is if Sharpio chooses the trade away Tulo for another starter.

[TheAlpineOracle]

There is no way that the Blue Jay's keep both Price and Estrada. Signing Estrada will take away almost half their cap space and I'm assuming that Price will cost 25 + mill. If anything Price is gone and we will sign 1 or 2 starters on the free agent market.

To me, I expect the the rotation to look like:

1. Stro
2. Dickey
3. Estrada/ FA starter
4. Sanchez
5. Hutchison

It's something that I'm okay with, especially with the offence that we have. The only way it looks different from that rotation is if Sharpio chooses the trade away Tulo for another starter.

Not many people are going to be willing to take on Tulo's contract, and the ones who are, won't be giving up much for it. The fact that we gave them Hoffman to take on that contract still has me a little upset. The last 3 years of that contract are insane.

[Parallex]

To me, I expect the the rotation to look like:

1. Stro
2. Dickey
3. Estrada/ FA starter
4. Sanchez
5. Hutchison


Yeah, that's basically what I expect as well (Except that I think/hope that it'd be Osuna in the rotation).

Sanchez as Starter: .240avg .346obp .392slg 5.73K/9 5.05BB/9
Sanchez as Reliever: .176avg .245obp .222slg 6.49K/9 2.39BB/9

The bullpen is the place for Sanchez.

[Roof-Daddy]

Bautista and Edwin are no brainers. Well below market. Dickey is questionable. I'd prefer they let him walk and used that money on someone else, but given the state of their current rotation and the propensity of free agents to avoid Toronto, probably not a risk they could realistically take.

When your current rotation consists of:

1. Stroman
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?

...then exercising the option on 200+ innings & 30+ starts of RA Dickey is a no brainer IMO.

So yeap, as you stated, can't risk not bringing him back for another year.

[kmart]

Yeah, that's basically what I expect as well (Except that I think/hope that it'd be Osuna in the rotation).

Sanchez as Starter: .240avg .346obp .392slg 5.73K/9 5.05BB/9
Sanchez as Reliever: .176avg .245obp .222slg 6.49K/9 2.39BB/9

The bullpen is the place for Sanchez.

There is many arguments to it. Look at Osuna's stats as a starter in Dunedin or Lansing last year they were awful. On the flip side his numbers as a reliever in the majors were great.

Either way one of Osuna and Sanchez will be in the rotation. He was already finding his way as a starter until he got injured. He has a easy delivery and his development as a starter already really gives him the nod over Osuna. His control is an issue but pitcher's usually become better with control over time.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Blue Jays need to make a decision on Sanchez and Osuna and stick to it. They keep switching them in and out of the rotation/bullpen and they are going to ruin two pretty good prospects. I fear it's may be too late on Sanchez alreardy.

[kmart]

I think Bautista is more the Papplebon in your analogy, than O'Day is. I'm sure they'd ask Bautista his thoughts before extending an offer. O"Day wouldn't sign there either if it was going to be an issue.

This team had really good chemistry and it was well documented. I don't understand why you'd flirt with the potential for personalities clashing in the clubhouse. O'Day and Bautista have clashed more than one time in the past and that will not bode well in an 162 game season.

If I'm the Blue Jay's management, I don't even think about calling O'Day or asking Bautista, he's off my list with zero thought of being signed.

[Roof-Daddy]

I wonder what kind of an arm the Jays could get if they packaged up EE with someone else, like Goins or Revere for example?

I'd hate to lose any of our big bats, but if they can't shore up the rotation via free agency, they might have to.

2B Travis
SS Tulowitzki
3B Donaldson
DH Bautista
1B Colabello/Smoak/UFA
BC Martin
CF Pillar
RF Saunders
LF Pompey

That is still a formidable line up IMO.

[JayP]

As is we'd have a bullpen of...

Aaron Sanchez
Brett Cecil
Liam Hendriks
Aaron Loup
Ryan Tepera
Bo Schultz
Pat Venditte

... that's assuming that Osuna moves to the rotation and nobody else is acquired. That's certainly not ideal but there are some interesting hurlers in there. I'm confident in Sanchez and Cecil (as bullpen arms), Hendriks was a revelation last year, Venditte always has the platoon advantage, Loup had his struggles but reduce his role to Loogy and the source of all his struggles last year disappears (namely a spike in power numbers by RH hitters... lefties slugged .362 against him while RH slugged .510. for perspective every RH he faced turned into Jose Bautista and every lefties was Ryan Goins). It shouldn't be hard (or expensive) to find upgrades on Tepera & Schultz.

The bullpen will figure itself out. Spending money on it is about the stupidest thing you can do. Relievers are just so volatile from year to year. Everyone can bring up the KC model, but they didn't go out and sign a bunch of established guys. Just bring in a bunch of hard throwers into camp and hope a couple of them stick - that's really your best bet in the bullpen.

[JayP]

the pitching free agent list looks really uninspiring.

It's actually a very deep class compared to most years.

[JiriHrdina]

Blue Jays need to make a decision on Sanchez and Osuna and stick to it. They keep switching them in and out of the rotation/bullpen and they are going to ruin two pretty good prospects. I fear it's may be too late on Sanchez alreardy.

Geez louise man - you have the most pessimistic view about everything related to the Jays that I've ever seen.

Nothing wrong with establishing where a pitcher fits best. A lot of hurlers get moved around early in their careers.

[Parallex]

Look at Osuna's stats as a starter in Dunedin or Lansing last year they were awful.

... no they weren't. He didn't even pitch in Lansing last year and his stats in Dunedin were strong (12.27K/9 & 3.68BB/9) albeit in limited playing time due to injury. Sure his ERA wasn't good but ERA is a dumb stat (and it was caused by a obviously unsustainable .446 BABIP).

[TheAlpineOracle]

Geez louise man - you have the most pessimistic view about everything related to the Jays that I've ever seen.

Nothing wrong with establishing where a pitcher fits best. A lot of hurlers get moved around early in their careers.

There is everything wrong with seeing where a pitcher fits early in their career. Starters are identified very early and drafted as such, and teams spend years developing their release point, upping their innings (so they can maintain velocity and command over 6-7 innings), and adding a third and sometimes 4th pitch to their arsenal.

Not always, but in general, once it's determined that a pitcher is not a starter, than they can penciled into the bullpen (holds true for most of the Jays pen last year).

We're not talking about putting a guy in pen for the playoffs here which everyone does, we are talking Sanchez now coming out of the bullpen for two straights seasons now (except for a small amount at the start of this year). That's two years of key development time where's been throwing 10 fastballs for 1 inning, rather than building up pitch stamina, adding control, and secondary pitches to his game. Bottom line, if the the Jays see him as a starter, he has to start in Toronto or Buffalo. If they don't, well it's time to move on and leave him in the bullpen permanently. Continuing to pitch him out of the bullpen will ensure we will never be the 2nd-3rd guy in the rotation he was projected to be.

What other young starting pitchers do you see in the league that have spent time between the bullpen and starting rotation in the Majors to start their career. I can name a few, but the good ones are far and precious few between.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I already can't wait for next season to start! Excercising their options on Dickey, Bautista and Encarnacion all make perfect sense to me. Dickey will be a fifth starter who can eat 200 plus innings at 12 million dollars. Finding pitchers through free agency will be interesting though like many posters have said the trade route might make the most sense for them.

One of Edwin, Troy or Jose will maybe get you a starting pitcher.

[kmart]

We're not talking about putting a guy in pen for the playoffs here which everyone does, we are talking Sanchez now coming out of the bullpen for two straights seasons now (except for a small amount at the start of this year). .

He was primarily a starter in the minors until he was brought up last year and he got about a third of the year worth of starts this past year, so he's not really coming out of the bullpen for two straight years.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I already can't wait for next season to start! Excercising their options on Dickey, Bautista and Encarnacion all make perfect sense to me. Dickey will be a fifth starter who can eat 200 plus innings at 12 million dollars. Finding pitchers through free agency will be interesting though like many posters have said the trade route might make the most sense for them.

One of Edwin, Troy or Jose will maybe get you a starting pitcher.

I think Jose is the most likely option to be traded. One year contract and can play the field so he appeals to both AL and NL teams. Edwin has had a lot of injuries and is limited to DH, and Tulowitzky's contact is very limiting.

I would not miss Bautista. I'll forever remember that homer against Texas, but the guy is a first rate #######. The way he carries himself, in my opinion, really hurts the Jays with the umpires. People can say they wouldn't hold that against the Jays because they are professionals, but I just don't believe that. These guys are human, and having this guy show them up every inning and from the outfield isn't doing the Jays any favours.

[TheAlpineOracle]

He was primarily a starter in the minors until he was brought up last year and he got about a third of the year worth of starts this past year, so he's not really coming out of the bullpen for two straight years.

He was 21 years old (maybe 20) when the Jays brought him from AAA. He had one year of AA-AAA experience. This guy has had his development severely altered by the Jays in the past two seasons. As a comparison, Syndergaard was drafted the same year as Sanchez and didn't make his major league debut until May 12 of this year while starting for two years in AA-AAA.

Not comparing them as prospect as Syndergaard is a bluechipper, but comparing their development strategies. Sanchez's is really troubling to me. Not saying he can't further develop, but I'm saying the Jays have to make a decision now. Is he a starter or is he not. If he is, he's need to be starting in AAA or with the Jays.

[Parallex]

One of Edwin, Troy or Jose will maybe get you a starting pitcher.

A run is a run is a run regardless of whether it comes from a bat, or prevented with a glove or an arm. We're not going to be trading Bautista, EE, or Tulo. At least not until closer to the deadline and if we do that we're trading them for prospects/young players not a pitcher.

If we had an MLB ready bluechip prospect blocked by an established vet then I could see it happening (but we don't) otherwise it makes no sense because you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[kmart]

A run is a run is a run regardless of whether it comes from a bat, or prevented with a glove or an arm. We're not going to be trading Bautista, EE, or Tulo. At least not until closer to the deadline and if we do that we're trading them for prospects/young players not a pitcher.

If we had an MLB ready bluechip prospect blocked by an established vet then I could see it happening (but we don't) otherwise it makes no sense because you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The reason I see Tulo being traded is because Goins finished off the season very strong. He's not a bluechip prospect or anything of that sort, but he's a left handed bat in a line up full of righties, so as an everyday player he can be a contributor. His defence is top notch as well, so sitting him as the fourth infielder wouldn't make much sense. He's an above average player that should be playing IMO.

[Hockey Fan #751]

The reason I see Tulo being traded is because Goins finished off the season very strong. He's not a bluechip prospect or anything of that sort, but he's a left handed bat in a line up full of righties, so as an everyday player he can be a contributor. His defence is top notch as well, so sitting him as the fourth infielder wouldn't make much sense. He's an above average player that should be playing IMO.

I still don't see Goins as an everyday player, at least not yet. He made some adjustments last season around the all-star break that really paid off for him (resulted in way more walks) but I'd like to see how he does next season before making a decision. I expect pitchers will make an adjustment. I think he's an excellent utility infielder, though. Maybe best in the league.

I'm not so sure Travis will return to the level he was at, either. He played well above expectations. No way would I trade Tulo.

[TheAlpineOracle]

So anyone watch the Shapiro interview with Stephen Brunt followed up by Stephen Brunt appearing on Tim and Sid?

Pretty much confirms what the "pessimists" in this thread are saying. Will go with what they got for next year and then there will be a fundamental change in organizational philosophy. Shapiro flat out says that next year is the window closing.

Hard not to be a pessimist when you've followed a team for 30+ years and they continually bull the same BS.

[Hockey]

Just open up the wallet and sign Price and Greinke.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Just open up the wallet and sign Price and Greinke.

Absolutely not going to happen. I had a little faith they may sign Price, but after those interviews, there's no chance that's the case.

[JiriHrdina]

So anyone watch the Shapiro interview with Stephen Brunt followed up by Stephen Brunt appearing on Tim and Sid?

Pretty much confirms what the "pessimists" in this thread are saying. Will go with what they got for next year and then there will be a fundamental change in organizational philosophy. Shapiro flat out says that next year is the window closing.

Hard not to be a pessimist when you've followed a team for 30+ years and they continually bull the same BS.

Frankly I imagine you are spinning this in the most negative light possible.

And does anyone disagree that the window does start to close next year? If only because Jose and EE both become free agents.

[JayP]

The reason I see Tulo being traded is because Goins finished off the season very strong. He's not a bluechip prospect or anything of that sort, but he's a left handed bat in a line up full of righties, so as an everyday player he can be a contributor. His defence is top notch as well, so sitting him as the fourth infielder wouldn't make much sense. He's an above average player that should be playing IMO.

He's not a prospect at all - he'll be 28 by the start of next season. And contrary to popular belief, Goins didn't finish the season that strong. He had an awesome August (.314/.442/.443). He finished with a pedestrian September (.263/.324/.374) and awful postseason (.139/.162/.250). Essentially, after August he was hitting pretty close to his usual self.

I just don't understand the appeal of trading Tulo. First off, he's the best shortstop in baseball when healthy. More importantly, the intent is to replace him with a Ryan Goins because he had one good month in his MLB career and Devon Travis because he had two good months in his MLB career. That is a massive risk.

I really don't see the issue with rolling with Tulo/Travis and having Goins back up. Tulo likely only plays 125-130 games or so based on history and having a solid back-up like Goins will only help give Tulo plenty of off days and keep him healthier long term. Travis is coming off an injured plagued year and has never played more than 100 games in a season (once and his next highest was 77 games). Expecting the guy to come back and play 150 games next year is just going to wear him down for the playoffs (assuming he stays healthy).

The best plan is to use Goins as a back-up and he likely starts 70 games anyways.

[The Big Chill]

I don't get the calls for trading EE or Jose for pitching.

For one thing, making us weaker in one area to make us stronger in another isn't going to make us a better team, unless we have a player waiting to replace their production, which we don't.

Secondly, the return for EE would be very minimal, at least in terms of current MLB level talent. An expiring EE does not get you an ace, and certainly does not get you an ace with any amount of team control. Trading EE would only make sense if we are blowing the whole thing up and getting prospects in return for all of our expiring contracts, or if a team lost their mind and we're making a dumb move like in the JD trade.

[dustyanddaflames]

Yes two good months from Ryan Goins does not negate the black hole he was at the plate previously. He is the perfect infield glove coming off the bench - by not stretch of the imagination would I give Goins the reigns for a full season, especially with an unproven Devon Travis presumably playing full time at second base. Goins did make some adjustments at the plate, drew way more walks, and had some very clutch hits down the stretch. But he was okay in September and terrible in October.

As for Travis - FanGraphs has a very good article on him right now. I knew he liked to go the other way, but his spray chart is something else. Add to that, all 4 fly balls that he hit to his pull side, left the ball park. Worth the read if you have a minute or two.

[adc]

I don't get the calls for trading EE or Jose for pitching.

For one thing, making us weaker in one area to make us stronger in another isn't going to make us a better team, unless we have a player waiting to replace their production, which we don't.

Secondly, the return for EE would be very minimal, at least in terms of current MLB level talent. An expiring EE does not get you an ace, and certainly does not get you an ace with any amount of team control. Trading EE would only make sense if we are blowing the whole thing up and getting prospects in return for all of our expiring contracts, or if a team lost their mind and we're making a dumb move like in the JD trade.

Wouldn't the thinking be the downgrade from EE to say Colabello would be negated by the upgrade from Hutchinson to pitcher X?

I don't think trading EE or Bautista for pitching makes much sense because I think it would be hard to find a team that would be interested in them that would also be giving up a pitcher that would have interest to the Jays.

Last year the Cardinals traded Shelby Miller for Jason Heyward so maybe the Jays could look for a deal like that but I think Heyward is roughly 25 so he likely has more interest to teams than EE or Bautista.

[adc]

The only reason that I could see moving Tulo is that he has an issue with being in Toronto. I think most of his comments in interviews were more to do with being dealt than being dealt to Toronto specifically but if there is an issue and they think it did and/or will affect his play then you move him now.

[The Big Chill]

Wouldn't the thinking be the downgrade from EE to say Colabello would be negated by the upgrade from Hutchinson to pitcher X?


Yes, but I'm saying that in order to make the team better, we would need to add a pitcher that does more then just negate the downgrade elsewhere. Negating the downgrade would make the team more balanced, but not any better. So the incoming pitcher would need to be a significant upgrade to the rotation, and an expiring EE isn't going to get that type of return.

My feelings about the direction of this team are about the same as they were last season up until the big trades. We either need to go all in and commit to making this team better for the short term (preferably by spending in FA, rather than giving up prospects), or we need to sell off our expiring assets and try to rebuild with some high-end prospects. I'd be OK with either direction as long as we are fully committed to the choice. Hovering in the middle is the worst place to be.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Yes, but I'm saying that in order to make the team better, we would need to add a pitcher that does more then just negate the downgrade elsewhere. Negating the downgrade would make the team more balanced, but not any better. So the incoming pitcher would need to be a significant upgrade to the rotation, and an expiring EE isn't going to get that type of return.

My feelings about the direction of this team are about the same as they were last season up until the big trades. We either need to go all in and commit to making this team better for the short term (preferably by spending in FA, rather than giving up prospects), or we need to sell off our expiring assets and try to rebuild with some high-end prospects. I'd be OK with either direction as long as we are fully committed to the choice. Hovering in the middle is the worst place to be.

Your logic is correct, but we are dealing with Rogers here. Watch the interview with Shapiro and Brunt, and than watch Brunt go on Sid and Tim to discuss it afterwards. I believe they are both on sportsnet.

Brunt's interview on Sid and Tim is quite telling. He essentially says not to expect the Jays to sign any pitching and go with that they got. In Shapiro's eye's this is the last year (and I think we can all agree that is the definitely the case), and he will not be adding 6-7 year pitching contracts when the meat of the order is gone after next season. So as usual, the Jays are not doing anything. They aren't adding to win now and they aren't subtracting to build the future. They'll ride the success of last year into this year, sop up all the increased revenue they can, and consider moving Bautista/EE/Tulo/Dickey/Martin if things go south prior to August.

Brunt even mentions moving Donaldson on the interview. I almost threw up in my mouth. I don't think that will happen, but when a well respected journalist implies that anything is possible, it really doesn't make a fan of the team feel too great.

[kmart]

I think we can agree that Goins is not half the player Tulo is, so I'll play deveils advocate from another prospective. Looking around online, the Blue Jays will have about 26 million in budget. That leaves room for one, maybe two pitchers with an awful bullpen. With Tulo you can remove 20 million off the payroll and add a pitcher through trade and allocate more money to the pitchers. The lineup was already deadly before the Tulo trade, it'll still be deadly without Tulo. He's still a premier shortstop on a contract that provides control, so he does have value.

There is no way you're trading away EE and Bautista for quality pitching and if you trade them for prospects the cap space provided from trading them won't bring the Blue Jay's much in terms of free agents.

Saying that I don't think anyone in the line up will be traded, but if a player were to get traded I'd place my bets on Tulo.

[TheAlpineOracle]

He's not a prospect at all - he'll be 28 by the start of next season. And contrary to popular belief, Goins didn't finish the season that strong. He had an awesome August (.314/.442/.443). He finished with a pedestrian September (.263/.324/.374) and awful postseason (.139/.162/.250). Essentially, after August he was hitting pretty close to his usual self.

I just don't understand the appeal of trading Tulo. First off, he's the best shortstop in baseball when healthy. More importantly, the intent is to replace him with a Ryan Goins because he had one good month in his MLB career and Devon Travis because he had two good months in his MLB career. That is a massive risk.

I really don't see the issue with rolling with Tulo/Travis and having Goins back up. Tulo likely only plays 125-130 games or so based on history and having a solid back-up like Goins will only help give Tulo plenty of off days and keep him healthier long term. Travis is coming off an injured plagued year and has never played more than 100 games in a season (once and his next highest was 77 games). Expecting the guy to come back and play 150 games next year is just going to wear him down for the playoffs (assuming he stays healthy).

The best plan is to use Goins as a back-up and he likely starts 70 games anyways.

I don't think any Jays fans see an appeal to trading Tulo, but they see his contract, know what needs to be done this year to win (pitching) and realize Rogers isn't going to increase the budget to meet that need.

I think Jays fans are just adding 2 and 2 together here. Rogers is simply not going to pay Tulo 20M a year until 2022 when the team has entered a complete rebuild. If they don't move Tulo now, they will in the future whether be of their volition or Tulo demanding out because he's not going to sit in the pinnacle of his career on a rebuild either. He already spent years on a dwindling team in Colorado.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Frankly I imagine you are spinning this in the most negative light possible.

And does anyone disagree that the window does start to close next year? If only because Jose and EE both become free agents.

I'm not spinning anything in a negative light all. Everything I say is based on the past actions of Jays management and Rogers over two decades.

The problem is, there's a bunch of people that have now found the Jays again, had a great run to amp them up, and seem to think this is the norm and want to bury their head in the sand when people who've followed the team for years give some perspective as to what has historically occurred.

Sure what I'm saying is negative, but certainly isn't a "spin". Here's what I've harped on over the past month or so. Most of which has come pretty close to true (unfortunately).


- Giving up home advantage in the playoffs was ridiculous given the Jays stats on the road versus home, and shutting the team down early was a bad mistake....... Well it took 3 games for the Jays to wake up against Texas, and not having home advantage cost them dearly against KC. Now I don't think they would have beaten KC regardless, but being the visiting team surely put them behind the 8 ball.

- Gibbons, AA, or both should lose their job over the way the end of the season was handled...... I probably overreacted with AA, but I stand by the fact that Gibbons should have lost his job (he would have had they lost to Texas). In fact, the silver lining of Shapiro was that I figured we would be rid of Gibbons. Unfortunately that is not going to be the case. They'll wait until 2017 for that.

- After seeing AA's end of the year conference, I said I didn't feel he was going to re-up with Toronto because he wouldn't work under Shapiro and wasn't happy with likely a shrinking Budget over the next few years (gave a snarky remark about having to ask someone above his pay grade on budget at the press conference). Multiple posters said I was reading more into that than I should and was being negative....... It appears I was quite correct on that front, and fully stand by the comment that this debacle will further damage the bad reputation the Jays already have around the league.

- People were talking about resigning Price and Estrada and bolstering a couple holes in the lineup, and I said I doubt this given how cheap Rogers is and their propensity to not reinvest profits into the baseball club...... Can't be right or wrong on that yet, but watch Brunt's interview with Tim and Sid and read between the lines. This team will be nowhere near the top ten in the league on payroll once 2017 rolls around. They won't be reallocating the money they save when Bautista and Edwin leave

Call me negative all you want, but i'm not spinning anything.

[kmart]

- Giving up home advantage in the playoffs was ridiculous given the Jays stats on the road versus home, and shutting the team down early was a bad mistake....... Well it took 3 games for the Jays to wake up against Texas, and not having home advantage cost them dearly against KC. Now I don't think they would have beaten KC regardless, but being the visiting team surely put them behind the 8 ball..

Blue Jays were 91-65 and the Royals were 90-66 with six games remaining. IIRC the Blue Jay's clinched the AL east in the first game of a double header and didn't player their starters in the last game and the game after. Well usually when there are double headers you don't player your starters in the second game. Secondly the last game in the series was a rainout, I don't even play Gibbons for not letting his players play, that is just calling for injuries for a team that had everything to lose. The series against the Rays they tried to win, they just lost to some really good pitching. You're spinning it as if they didn't even bother trying after they clinched the AL East, of course they tried.

- Gibbons, AA, or both should lose their job over the way the end of the season was handled...... I probably overreacted with AA, but I stand by the fact that Gibbons should have lost his job (he would have had they lost to Texas). In fact, the silver lining of Shapiro was that I figured we would be rid of Gibbons. Unfortunately that is not going to be the case. They'll wait until 2017 for that.

Why should they lose their jobs again? They were AL East champs, doesn't speak of the need to be fired to me. They weren't world series champs, but they certainly weren't unsuccessful.

- After seeing AA's end of the year conference, I said I didn't feel he was going to re-up with Toronto because he wouldn't work under Shapiro and wasn't happy with likely a shrinking Budget over the next few years (gave a snarky remark about having to ask someone above his pay grade on budget at the press conference). Multiple posters said I was reading more into that than I should and was being negative....... It appears I was quite correct on that front, and fully stand by the comment that this debacle will further damage the bad reputation the Jays already have around the league.

The Blue Jays are a top 10 team in payroll and they have been for the last 3 years. In fact how is it not impressive that Rogers is letting the Blue Jays keep their payroll with a dropping Canadian dollar, bad reputation or not.

- People were talking about resigning Price and Estrada and bolstering a couple holes in the lineup, and I said I doubt this given how cheap Rogers is and their propensity to not reinvest profits into the baseball club...... Can't be right or wrong on that yet, but watch Brunt's interview with Tim and Sid and read between the lines. This team will be nowhere near the top ten in the league on payroll once 2017 rolls around. They won't be reallocating the money they save when Bautista and Edwin leave


I don't see any indication that they will decrease their spending on payroll this. Brunt was just mentioning that their window is small, which it is. Yeah once 2017 rolls around they might spend less if Bautista or Encarnacion are gone, I don't see why that is a bad thing, why would you spend cash in a year where your top sluggers are gone? Theres no point in spending cash when you know you're losing. But thats 2017, which is a year from now. I'll enjoy this next season with the Blue Jays being top contenders.

[Caged Great]

For me, in free agency my targets for starters would be

#1 Jordan Zimmerman
#2 Hisashi Iwakuma
#3 Scott Kazmir
#4 John Lackey (Barf)
#5 Brett Anderson
#6 Marco Estrada

I would also not be opposed to backing up the brinks truck for Heyward if the Jays could then flip Jose for a starter. Also would not be opposed to a 5/100 for Chris Davis either.

Signing Mark Lowe should also be a priority. A 2/8 deal should get it done. He was pretty good and if the Jays decide to move one of the other late inning guys to the rotation, they will need someone to replace them.

[TheAlpineOracle]

nm

[TheAlpineOracle]

- You will never get me to believe the Jays made any effort to win in Tampa. They started Buerhle on like one day's rest.

- Gibbons is not a good Manager. In his latest tenure he is under .500 right up until July Of this year when he was handed the keys to an all star team. He under achieved for two and half years. His game management is terrible, and leaning on his gut instead of looking at the stats costs the Jays all the time. He should have been gone before this season even started. Had they lost to Texas, he would have been canned.

- Are you really suggesting Jays fans should be grateful Rogers is keeping the same payroll? Both Rogers and the Jays are hedged on fx so it's not as big of deal as you think, and even if they weren't, these guys made a boatload of money on this run and aren't reinvesting a penny of in back in to the team which is the problem with the Jays in the first place.

- they aren't going to reduce payrolll, but they aren't going to be a contender if they don't increase it They desperately need pitching and don't have a single Prospect left to be renters at the deadline. Brunt flat out said they aren't going to be signing any pitchers when they fully intend on rebuilding in 2017. They are essentially wasting 2016 by keeping the status quo. I'm not even going to get into my thoughts on rebuilding. In a market the size of Toronto (well Canada), this team should be restocking through free agency not rebuilding. Even with Bautista and Edwin gone, they still have pillar, Donaldson, Martin, Tulo, and a Travis to build around.

- the general concensus among Jays fans was that they showed Rogers what they are capable of when They commit to fielding a winning team, this would change Rogers opinion on the team. Well it looks like that isn't the case, Rogers gonna do what Rogers gonna do.

[JiriHrdina]

I'm not spinning anything in a negative light all. Everything I say is based on the past actions of Jays management and Rogers over two decades.

The problem is, there's a bunch of people that have now found the Jays again, had a great run to amp them up, and seem to think this is the norm and want to bury their head in the sand when people who've followed the team for years give some perspective as to what has historically occurred.

Sure what I'm saying is negative, but certainly isn't a "spin". Here's what I've harped on over the past month or so. Most of which has come pretty close to true (unfortunately).


- Giving up home advantage in the playoffs was ridiculous given the Jays stats on the road versus home, and shutting the team down early was a bad mistake....... Well it took 3 games for the Jays to wake up against Texas, and not having home advantage cost them dearly against KC. Now I don't think they would have beaten KC regardless, but being the visiting team surely put them behind the 8 ball.

- Gibbons, AA, or both should lose their job over the way the end of the season was handled...... I probably overreacted with AA, but I stand by the fact that Gibbons should have lost his job (he would have had they lost to Texas). In fact, the silver lining of Shapiro was that I figured we would be rid of Gibbons. Unfortunately that is not going to be the case. They'll wait until 2017 for that.

- After seeing AA's end of the year conference, I said I didn't feel he was going to re-up with Toronto because he wouldn't work under Shapiro and wasn't happy with likely a shrinking Budget over the next few years (gave a snarky remark about having to ask someone above his pay grade on budget at the press conference). Multiple posters said I was reading more into that than I should and was being negative....... It appears I was quite correct on that front, and fully stand by the comment that this debacle will further damage the bad reputation the Jays already have around the league.

- People were talking about resigning Price and Estrada and bolstering a couple holes in the lineup, and I said I doubt this given how cheap Rogers is and their propensity to not reinvest profits into the baseball club...... Can't be right or wrong on that yet, but watch Brunt's interview with Tim and Sid and read between the lines. This team will be nowhere near the top ten in the league on payroll once 2017 rolls around. They won't be reallocating the money they save when Bautista and Edwin leave

Call me negative all you want, but i'm not spinning anything.

Maybe not spin but you certainly have a glass half empty view of anything related to the Jays.
And for the record, I've been a fan of this team for 30 years.

Just because someone doesn't share your pessimistic view of the Jays that they have their "head in the sand". Maybe they just have a different opinion?

[bluejays]

I'm not sure about Anderson. When Oakland had him he was a stud in the making. Now in a team going for it, he seems more of a project than a player you want to take a chance on for a championship team. I'd really put Marco higher. I wonder how much Jeff Samardzija will be going for?

[bluejays]

- the general concensus among Jays fans was that they showed Rogers what they are capable of when They commit to fielding a winning team, this would change Rogers opinion on the team. Well it looks like that isn't the case, Rogers gonna do what Rogers gonna do.

While I don't agree, I don't necessarily disagree on your view of Rogers' stance.

Toronto generally pays for good performance. With the Jays though, if the Jays made all these deals last November, I'm not convinced the fans would've had the same turnout as they did when most the deals were made at the deadline and just came out of nowhere. It was a shock effect and it wasn't expected in the least. Whether it continues into next season, as good as ticket sales were this year, I wouldn't be surprised if fans regress a little bit.

Secondly, the effect of the USD. Surely Rogers hedges against this, but how much and when? The currency exchange is likely killing them right now as I don't imagine they banked a lot of that hedging last year, knowing the dollar was going to tank. Just think about it for a second. They lose 30% for every dollar they spend right now, because they have to pay in US funds. On that alone I don't blame them for being a little cheap. It's hard to keep up with the Jones', if you're in such a tough economic situation. Which brings me to my third point - risk...

Rogers is a corporation. They're responsible to their shareholders to bring value. Surely this year was very valuable to shareholders based on ticket sales, merchandise and playoff revenue. That is undeniable. However, this is a sport and especially baseball, is so difficult to make the playoffs. Say the Jays poured Bosox money this year again and they didn't make it, suddenly shareholders are pissed that there was no good ROI. Look at it from the perspective of the CEO. How do you forecast to your shareholders what the expected income will be the following quarter if much of your estimate is on how a sports property is performing? It's a tough sell. Corporate ownership in sports sucks, because they're responsible first to the shareholder, then second the fan. At least private ownership by some old rich guy means greater risk propositions, because it's play money.

[Caged Great]

I'm not sure about Anderson. When Oakland had him he was a stud in the making. Now in a team going for it, he seems more of a project than a player you want to take a chance on for a championship team. I'd really put Marco higher. I wonder how much Jeff Samardzija will be going for?

Only had him higher due to his high GB rate. With how much the turf slows the ball down and the Jays amazing IF defense, I think a pitcher like Anderson might have a great season. If anything I'd target mostly GB pitchers with K abilities.

[kmart]

- You will never get me to believe the Jays made any effort to win in Tampa. They started Buerhle on like one day's rest.

Depends how you spin it. Royals were in control of their own destiny at that point and Buerhle was trying to get to 200 innings. You talk about reputation, things like this couldn't hurt that reputation.

- Gibbons is not a good Manager. In his latest tenure he is under .500 right up until July Of this year when he was handed the keys to an all star team. He under achieved for two and half years. His game management is terrible, and leaning on his gut instead of looking at the stats costs the Jays all the time. He should have been gone before this season even started. Had they lost to Texas, he would have been canned.

Really up to discretion, could you imagine how pissed some players might be if he was fired after a pretty good season?

- Are you really suggesting Jays fans should be grateful Rogers is keeping the same payroll? Both Rogers and the Jays are hedged on fx so it's not as big of deal as you think, and even if they weren't, these guys made a boatload of money on this run and aren't reinvesting a penny of in back in to the team which is the problem with the Jays in the first place.

Sports teams don't make much money period, there isn't much money at all to be re-invested. Rogers aren't going to throw 50 million at baseball team, thats money that won't be coming back at all. Being a Blue Jays fan its just something you have to live with knowing that a corporation owns the Blue Jays. Some years they won't spend, some years they will go for it.

- they aren't going to reduce payrolll, but they aren't going to be a contender if they don't increase it They desperately need pitching and don't have a single Prospect left to be renters at the deadline. Brunt flat out said they aren't going to be signing any pitchers when they fully intend on rebuilding in 2017. They are essentially wasting 2016 by keeping the status quo. I'm not even going to get into my thoughts on rebuilding. In a market the size of Toronto (well Canada), this team should be restocking through free agency not rebuilding. Even with Bautista and Edwin gone, they still have pillar, Donaldson, Martin, Tulo, and a Travis to build around.

You have the bottom half payroll teams like the Royals and Mets making the playoffs. Let's wait and see what happens this offseason when it comes to making moves for pitchers. Again I believe the our dollar declining really hurt our payroll.

I know the market size is large, but until the end of last season it didn't even result in ticket sales. This is a market that is spread out nationwide. It's not like the Yankees with 20 million people in remote location.

- the general concensus among Jays fans was that they showed Rogers what they are capable of when They commit to fielding a winning team, this would change Rogers opinion on the team. Well it looks like that isn't the case, Rogers gonna do what Rogers gonna do.

Again, thats just the way a corporation works. They have to account for different shareholders. They can't just throw 50 million at a team without receiving a return on their investment and with a sports team they will not. The fact that they are top 10 in payroll speaks volumes that they are somewhat committed to winning. If you want a top 5 payroll team the fan bases of the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox are always open. I'll stick with the ups and downs of being a Blue Jays fan.

[TheAlpineOracle]

While I don't agree, I don't necessarily disagree on your view of Rogers' stance.

Toronto generally pays for good performance. With the Jays though, if the Jays made all these deals last November, I'm not convinced the fans would've had the same turnout as they did when most the deals were made at the deadline and just came out of nowhere. It was a shock effect and it wasn't expected in the least. Whether it continues into next season, as good as ticket sales were this year, I wouldn't be surprised if fans regress a little bit.

Secondly, the effect of the USD. Surely Rogers hedges against this, but how much and when? The currency exchange is likely killing them right now as I don't imagine they banked a lot of that hedging last year, knowing the dollar was going to tank. Just think about it for a second. They lose 30% for every dollar they spend right now, because they have to pay in US funds. On that alone I don't blame them for being a little cheap. It's hard to keep up with the Jones', if you're in such a tough economic situation. Which brings me to my third point - risk...

Rogers is a corporation. They're responsible to their shareholders to bring value. Surely this year was very valuable to shareholders based on ticket sales, merchandise and playoff revenue. That is undeniable. However, this is a sport and especially baseball, is so difficult to make the playoffs. Say the Jays poured Bosox money this year again and they didn't make it, suddenly shareholders are pissed that there was no good ROI. Look at it from the perspective of the CEO. How do you forecast to your shareholders what the expected income will be the following quarter if much of your estimate is on how a sports property is performing? It's a tough sell. Corporate ownership in sports sucks, because they're responsible first to the shareholder, then second the fan. At least private ownership by some old rich guy means greater risk propositions, because it's play money.

If Rogers showed an actual commitment to winning a championship in a continual basis and the Jays played im a normal sized stadium (30k), they'd sell out every night. The day of the mega stadium is over. They actually hurt attendance becaus their is no incentive to buy game packs or season tickets because you can just walk up any game you want and get a ticket.

That said there's nothing we Can do about the stadium. It is what it is. With the Jays you just can't look at the butts in the seats at Rogers Centre. They sell their merchandise and broadcast their games to an entire nation. The revenue bump from that this year will be ridiculous.

[bluejays]

If Rogers showed an actual commitment to winning a championship in a continual basis and the Jays played im a normal sized stadium (30k), they'd sell out every night. The day of the mega stadium is over. They actually hurt attendance becaus their is no incentive to buy game packs or season tickets because you can just walk up any game you want and get a ticket.

That said there's nothing we Can do about the stadium. It is what it is. With the Jays you just can't look at the butts in the seats at Rogers Centre. They sell their merchandise and broadcast their games to an entire nation. The revenue bump from that this year will be ridiculous.

That I don't think tells the whole story. They only started making good gate revenue after the deals. That was around mid July, I believe. So nearly three months of close-to sell outs. Plus very nice merchandise sales. However, what were their expenses like during this time? The USD is also hurting them big time when it comes to payroll. TV right deals aren't through the roof as it is in the states either. Factoring all this qualitatively in, I don't think they made a crazy killing here. Again, the dollar is really not good.

[TheAlpineOracle]

That I don't think tells the whole story. They only started making good gate revenue after the deals. That was around mid July, I believe. So nearly three months of close-to sell outs. Plus very nice merchandise sales. However, what were their expenses like during this time? The USD is also hurting them big time when it comes to payroll. TV right deals aren't through the roof as it is in the states either. Factoring all this qualitatively in, I don't think they made a crazy killing here. Again, the dollar is really not good.

They had almost 40 home games in that time period. I think it's safe to say that they increased average attendance at those games by 20K at an average ticket price of $60 bucks. That's an increase of almost 50M dollars in increased revenues on tickets sales alone. That's just the tip of the iceberg. How much money did the jays take in extra on concessions during that game ( a beer and hotdog are a 23 dollar combo there, I went to three games in August and spent well over $300 on concessions alone as one person)? How much merchandise did they sell over that time period? You couldn't get a piece of Jays merchandise anywhere in the entire country by the time mid-September rolled around.

The Jays played 6 home playoff games to capacity crowds of 49K (I think). The Jays were selling tickets in the upper bowl in the ALDS for $100 and the ALCS for $150. God knows what the lower bowl was selling for. So using average ticket price of $150 over 6 games, that's another increase in revenue of 44M just on tickets sales alone without consideration of any concessions or tv revenues.

I think it's safe to assume here the Jays took in extra revenue of probably 200M on this little run here when all is said and done without even consideration of how many extra seasons tickets it sold for next year.

So to say that Rogers didn't make a killing on this is a joke. They are reinvesting a grand total of ZERO of this back into team. They will redistribute this to their shareholders. That's the right move for a corporation, it's not for a professional baseball team. This is the problems with the Jays and why their long term fans are so disgruntled with the ownership structure.

Not sure why you keep saying the exchange rate when talking about last year's profits. The Jays are hedged, the change in FX rate last year would have a minimal effect on their bottom line. It may going forward (depending on well they are hedge), but it's not even a consideration for 2015. The FX thing also goes both ways, any money they get from the tv deals is in USD.

[howard_the_duck]

They had almost 40 home games in that time period. I think it's safe to say that they increased average attendance at those games by 20K at an average ticket price of $60 bucks. That's an increase of almost 50M dollars in increased revenues on tickets sales alone. That's just the tip of the iceberg. How much money did the jays take in extra on concessions during that game ( a beer and hotdog are a 23 dollar combo there, I went to three games in August and spent well over $300 on concessions alone as one person)? How much merchandise did they sell over that time period? You couldn't get a piece of Jays merchandise anywhere in the entire country by the time mid-September rolled around.

The Jays played 6 home playoff games to capacity crowds of 49K (I think). The Jays were selling tickets in the upper bowl in the ALDS for $100 and the ALCS for $150. God knows what the lower bowl was selling for. So using average ticket price of $150 over 6 games, that's another increase in revenue of 44M just on tickets sales alone without consideration of any concessions or tv revenues.

I think it's safe to assume here the Jays took in extra revenue of probably 200M on this little run here when all is said and done without even consideration of how many extra seasons tickets it sold for next year.

So to say that Rogers didn't make a killing on this is a joke. They are reinvesting a grand total of ZERO of this back into team. They will redistribute this to their shareholders. That's the right move for a corporation, it's not for a professional baseball team. This is the problems with the Jays and why their long term fans are so disgruntled with the ownership structure.

Not sure why you keep saying the exchange rate when talking about last year's profits. The Jays are hedged, the change in FX rate last year would have a minimal effect on their bottom line. It may going forward (depending on well they are hedge), but it's not even a consideration for 2015. The FX thing also goes both ways, any money they get from the tv deals is in USD.

I can't find the article any longer, but I read something from CBC that cited Rogers made $130 MM off the Jays from August - September. Definitely not an unsubstantial number

[TheAlpineOracle]

I can't find the article any longer, but I read something from CBC that cited Rogers made $130 MM off the Jays from August - September. Definitely not an unsubstantial number

Yup, and that was even before the playoffs.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Some commentary from Bob McCown.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/mccown-theres-a-concern-blue-jays-payroll-will-decrease/

[Caged Great]

Jays apparently are targeting Chris Davis.

Yes please.

All your Dingers belong to the Jays.

[Harry Lime]

With the addition of Chris Davis (if that happens) and retaining of Colabello, would there be a higher likelyhood of EE becoming a trading chip before the season begins? A rotation of Bautista and Davis at DH opening up playing time for Pompey?

[Roof-Daddy]

Good lord yes please.

[dustyanddaflames]

I don't love Chris Davis' and his 1/3 strike out rate - but he at least plays a position, and would replace Encarnacion's power if he were to get traded this off-season. He has a good OBP as well, .361 OBP isn't bad for a guy with over 200 k's last year. And he's a LH bat that the lineup could use in the meat of the order.

I do think if it comes down to Encarnacion or Bautista, you have to move Edwin first.