Joni fricken Ortio

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Let's use this thread to actually discuss the play of Flames stud goalie Joni Ortio.

Posts a shutout in the most important game of his career to date. Played great hockey last year in both the AHL and NHL.

Will he be the 1A goaltender this year?

Edit: I have been censored and I don't appreciate it.. Thread title was Joni fricken Oreo and it shouldn't be changed because one poster is offended by it.

Edit 2: Fair enough!

MOD EDIT: The reason it was changed was because the entire previous thread was derailed by talk about cookies. We don't want it happening again and it's not because a poster was offended.

[FBI]

Hah! Was going to post the exact same thread title (with quotes around the fricken)

[Finger Cookin]

I think getting super stoked about a preseason shutout is a little premature. As eager as we all are for hockey again.

[Benched]

He needed it.

He was going to be the odd man out if he didn't show his stuff.

They set him up to fail/really prove himself. Dressed a AHL defense, going against Duchene and MacKinnon. I thought they were really hanging him out to dry so that when he got pumped they could say 'hes not that good' and set him up for a waiver move.

Instead he shuts the door, gets noticed. Regardless of who ends up staying, you can't waiver this kid.

[Huntingwhale]

I'll just post what I did in the last thread. Yes I do believe Ortio to be a legit #1 down the road. Maybe not this season or next, but Finnish goalies are often late bloomers and really come to their own in their late 20s (Kipper, Rinne to name a few). The fact that he comes from Turku and trained with Kipper is enough to convince me. We are almost set up front. Our D is elite. One of the last pieces is a top goaltender who can steal us games when needed and give us a chance to win every night. At some point, I think we have 2 goaltenders like that in Ortio and Gillies.

This article has been posted before, but I'll post it again in case anybody is in doubt of how a Finnish goaltender comes to fruition. Some great quotes by Ortio in that article as well.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/03/the-puck-stops-here/357579/

Never ever doubt a Finnish goalie. I would be perfectly content going with 2 Finnish goalies this season and Hiller being the odd man out. And I am a huge Hiller fan.

[tvp2003]

The talk legitimately becomes "who gives us the best chance to win". Which is awesome. We know what we'll get with Hiller -- same with Ramo. The book on Ortio is starting to be written and the first chapter looks pretty darn good.

[Bobblehead]

Let's use this thread to actually discuss the play of Flames stud goalie Joni Ortio.

Posts a shutout in the most important game of his career to date. Played great hockey last year in both the AHL and NHL.

Will he be the 1A goaltender this year?

While important - I kind of think the regular season games he played last season, especially against the Canucks, were much more important game than a preseason game.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I think getting super stoked about a preseason shutout is a little premature. As eager as we all are for hockey again.

I agree that a pre-season game shouldn't be the determiner, but I've been super stoked on him for some time now. It appears that his NHL time has arrived so that's why it's time for an Ortio thread in the main boards. After this game I don't see him getting sent through waivers. I mean Colorado paid a 2nd for Berra and they just got shutout by Ortio.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

While important - I kind of think the regular season games he played last season, especially against the Canucks, were much more important game than a preseason game.

I consider this last game the most important for his career because he's openly battling 2 other goalies at this moment. He played lights out in his NHL games but still went back to the AHL due to a numbers game.

That's not the case right now.

[FBI]

Those games were definitely more important to the team. But this one might have been just as important for his future with the flames.

[Erick Estrada]

I think the kid has potential and time will tell if he is the real deal or not. Maybe signing Ramo will be the kick in the pants for Ortio to prove his worth. I just don't see the trade market for Ramo with that contract and I think it would be a mistake to go with a Ramo/Ortio tandem as Ramo is way too spastic and unpredictable for my tastes.

[driveway]

To reiterate what I said in the last thread: There is no chance at all the team decides to waive Ortio. He's got way more upside than either Ramo or Hiller. Hiller will likely be the one move as from everything I've read Hartley prefers Ramo, though I'm not sure why.

Not a chance in heck Ortio hits waivers.

[Strange Brew]

I was fairly certain two weeks ago that Ortio would be waived and start the season in Stockton. Another game like the Colorado shutout and it becomes less likely he goes unclaimed. Fantastic example of a player forcing the teams hand.

[Coach]

My favorite trait of Ortio's is his confidence. You hear the other players and coaches talking about how sure he is of his abilities and how it gives the rest of the team strength. If you listen to his interviews he is very well spoken (hardly an accent at all either) and speaks about his belief in himself and how he enjoys the challenge of the NHL.

Him and Gillies going forward could be pretty delightful.

I think both Hiller and Ramo are very tradeable this season and would expect one them to be rather soon.

[Saqe]

The void of not having a goalie from my hometown playing for this team made me sink into a black hole for a while after Kipper left. But now the balance has been restored to the world and I may live happy once again.

[Poe969]

Hiller is a really good goalie and I think he'll have more trade value. It isn't that he should be moved because he isn't good but because we need to give Ortio a chance and it'll clear up cap space (depending on the return). I'm willing to bet that it's Hiller who's moved and Ortio becomes the starter by Christmas.

[Bingo]

I think the Flames as they stand have to still think build, and not now but it's ironic that Ortio could be the answer to both.

The Flames had middling goaltending last year. Not the weakness of the team, but certainly not the reason they made it to the playoffs and some media suggested without actually looking at the numbers.

Ortio has the best chance of the three to be a core player in 2 years.

And given the fact that we know what Ramo and Hiller as a tandem are (average), the best chance to get the lightning in a bottle for this season is Ortio pushing the Flames to say the 11th best goaltending and fortifying the position.

His unknown upside is a real intriguing factor in his favour.

[Locke]

The void of not having a goalie from my hometown playing for this team made me sink into a black hole for a while after Kipper left. But now the balance has been restored to the world and I may live happy once again.

Turku GoalieBot 2.0!

Channel your inner Kipper.

[FBI]

Assuming Ortio is ready enough this year:
Advantages for Ortio winning a spot and moving Hiller:
- cap savings
- younger
- more potential
- thinking long term instead of short term
- getting something back for Hiller

Disadvantages:
- possibly losing more games than Hiller this year

[Fire]

Right now I would send down Ramo to Stockton and keep Hiller and Ortio. I think you want Hiller's experience to counter Ortio's inexperience. I would not risk sending Ortio down to the AHL. If I was the Oilers I would be grabbing him and sending Scrivens down to the AHL.

[Enoch Root]

He needed it.

He was going to be the odd man out if he didn't show his stuff.

They set him up to fail/really prove himself. Dressed a AHL defense, going against Duchene and MacKinnon. I thought they were really hanging him out to dry so that when he got pumped they could say 'hes not that good' and set him up for a waiver move.

Instead he shuts the door, gets noticed. Regardless of who ends up staying, you can't waiver this kid.

Why on earth would the Flames hang him out to dry?

If you were Treliving, would you try to make one of your assets fail, just so your decision on who to keep was easier?

Is there a universe where that's a good way to run a team?

There is nothing the Flames would like more than to have Ortio claim one of the two jobs in Calgary. That makes the franchise stronger. Then they can try to move one of the other guys for an asset, continue to develop their younger player, save some cap space, and have a goalie that is both under contract for next year, and has some potential to build around.

Setting him up for failure was not their plan.

[Enoch Root]

Very excited to see that Ortio had a great game. I think goaltending is the biggest question on the team right now and obviously it would be huge for the team if he can step up.

But calling this the biggest game of his career is silly. It's one game. One pre-season game.

It's great that he did well, but there are still 2 weeks left in camp.

[SuperMatt18]

Why is everyone assuming Ortio is the odd man out...

If anything I feel like coming into this it is Hiller who is the odd man out.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I love Finnish goalies because I agree more with their style of play on a team like Calgary.

I believe HuntingWhale was trying to link (link didn't work) to an article about Finnish goalies and how they are developed over there. They are not encouraged to rely on the butterfly. Instead, they are forced to use their athleticism in controlling their rebounds and redirecting them. They are also taught to swallow up rebounds completely.

Blocking goalies have their place. They often do a fantastic job of blocking the first shot, and it is up to the defencemen to clear it. I think they work great on teams with big strong defencemen who can ensure they are not out-muscled in the crease by the forwards looking for the rebounds, and are able to clear the puck to safety. On teams with smaller defencemen, I think this proves to be a disadvantage. Just my thoughts anyways.

On the Flames, I do think that a combo of Ramo and Ortio would be better than Hiller and Ramo due to the Flames having more of the 'finesse puck-moving defencemen with active sticks', rather than the bigger and more brawny Engelland (rather, Regehr) -type of defencemen able to clear the front of the net.

Giguere was an excellent 'blocking-butterfly' goalie, and that defence (and team) were definitely on the large side of things.

Maybe it doesn't matter as much as I am thinking? I don't know, but I have always preferred a traditional athletic goalie who can swallow up the first shot without giving up a rebound, or if there is a rebound, is able to redirect it and who has the athleticism to recover quickly for those second (and sometimes third) attempts, over a blocking goalie that will be nearly impossible to beat with the first shot, but who relies on his teammates to clear the puck.

[jaikorven]

Why is everyone assuming Ortio is the odd man out...

If anything I feel like coming into this it is Hiller who is the odd man out.

I tend to agree with this. Hiller is the oldest, the more recognizable name and the most likely to get any assets via a trade.

[Locke]

Why is everyone assuming Ortio is the odd man out...

If anything I feel like coming into this it is Hiller who is the odd man out.

I've been thinking the same thing, they just re-signed Ramo which indicates that they want to keep him around and Ortio is our top Goaltending prospect, I always felt that Hiller was a stop-gap.

Which really sucks because I always felt Hiller was generally very reliable and steady, he came in and saved the day a few times.

[Reggie Dunlop]

When's the last time we had a goaltender triumvirate? Turek, McLennan and Kiprusoff?

[Coach]

http://creator.keepcalmandcarryon.com/vf/CsptxcYu&style=undefined

[Bandwagon In Flames]

http://creator.keepcalmandcarryon.com/vf/CsptxcYu&style=undefined

Hopefully Joni carries Karri Ramo this season ;)

[Erick Estrada]

I think the Flames as they stand have to still think build, and not now but it's ironic that Ortio could be the answer to both.

The Flames had middling goaltending last year. Not the weakness of the team, but certainly not the reason they made it to the playoffs and some media suggested without actually looking at the numbers.

Ortio has the best chance of the three to be a core player in 2 years.

And given the fact that we know what Ramo and Hiller as a tandem are (average), the best chance to get the lightning in a bottle for this season is Ortio pushing the Flames to say the 11th best goaltending and fortifying the position.

His unknown upside is a real intriguing factor in his favour.

So who's the odd man out in your opinion? I realize Ramo is the fan favorite here but it was largely Hiller that backstopped the team into the playoffs and in the first round playoff victory over the Canucks. I feel going with he and Ortio is the safest bet looking back on how things played out last year. Going with Ramo and Ortio is more of an unknown as Ramo was the backup last year and Ortio is still unproven.

[Coach]

So who's the odd man out in your opinion? I realize Ramo is the fan favorite here but it was largely Hiller that backstopped the team into the playoffs and in the first round playoff victory over the Canucks. I feel going with he and Ortio is the safest bet looking back on how things played out last year. Going with Ramo and Ortio is more of an unknown as Ramo was the backup last year and Ortio is still unproven.

I think Hiller's number of starts over Ramo had more to do with Hiller playing than well it did with Ramo playing poorly (also he was injured a couple times I believe). I think most people see them pretty evenly, and that's why Hiller is the one proposed to trade because he has more of a league history and recognizability, and therefore will likely garner more in a trade. If you see them as relatively the same skill-wise, it only makes sense to trade the one that you think will return more.

[Benched]

Why on earth would the Flames hang him out to dry?

If you were Treliving, would you try to make one of your assets fail, just so your decision on who to keep was easier?

Is there a universe where that's a good way to run a team?

There is nothing the Flames would like more than to have Ortio claim one of the two jobs in Calgary. That makes the franchise stronger. Then they can try to move one of the other guys for an asset, continue to develop their younger player, save some cap space, and have a goalie that is both under contract for next year, and has some potential to build around.

Setting him up for failure was not their plan.

as I said, so he'd get lit up and they could move him through waivers.

I think you're pretty naive if the management didn't at least think that was one of the possibilities.

On the other hand they said 'if the kid can play well given this AHL defense, then we really might have something here'


Maybe it's not 'setting him up to fail'.....maybe a better term is 'trial by fire'

[Coach]

as I said, so he'd get lit up and they could move him through waivers.

I think you're pretty naive if the management didn't at least think that was one of the possibilities.

On the other hand they said 'if the kid can play well given this AHL defense, then we really might have something here'


Maybe it's not 'setting him up to fail'.....maybe a better term is 'trial by fire'

I thought the line up was a pretty clear indication of who they need more looks at. They don't need to see the top 5 D. They don't need to see the majority of the top 9 forwards. Why play them?

[Benched]

I thought the line up was a pretty clear indication of who they need more looks at. They don't need to see the top 5 D. They don't need to see the majority of the top 9 forwards. Why play them?

And yet tonight we have a stacked lineup. Why not balance it out more? Or continue to play young guys who need another look?

Seems weird to me that we put forth such a no-name team, to turn around and dress a mainly NHL roster.


Hiller gets stacked defense
Ortio gets AHL defense

How is that fair?

[GioforPM]

And yet tonight we have a stacked lineup. Why not balance it out more? Or continue to play young guys who need another look?

Seems weird to me that we put forth such a no-name team, to turn around and dress a mainly NHL roster.


Hiller gets stacked defense
Ortio gets AHL defense

How is that fair?

Home game, home fans who want to see the stars. Especially because there are road games the day before and day after.

[Red Menace]

I certainly think it's a bad risk to expose him to waivers.
If Hiller or Ramo cannot be moved then they should carry 3 guys or send one of the vets to the AHL.
Signing Ramo was a poor decision, the difference between Hiller and Ramo is marginal, and with Ortio waiting in the wings it was a wasted move which might have adverse consequences to the franchise.

[Imported_Aussie]

And yet tonight we have a stacked lineup. Why not balance it out more? Or continue to play young guys who need another look?

Seems weird to me that we put forth such a no-name team, to turn around and dress a mainly NHL roster.


Hiller gets stacked defense
Ortio gets AHL defense

How is that fair?

because Hiller is a known quantity, and if he is to be traded, his value needs to be protected.
Ortio needed to prove himself. He played great and put the ball back in Treliving's court. A stinker and he would have been promptly placed on waivers to "sneak" him down

[Street Pharmacist]

I certainly think it's a bad risk to expose him to waivers.
If Hiller or Ramo cannot be moved then they should carry 3 guys or send one of the vets to the AHL.
Signing Ramo was a poor decision, the difference between Hiller and Ramo is marginal, and with Ortio waiting in the wings it was a wasted move which might have adverse consequences to the franchise.
3 games, 3 nights home game in the middle. Vets only need to play one of them, so why make them travel?

[Coach]

And yet tonight we have a stacked lineup. Why not balance it out more? Or continue to play young guys who need another look?

Seems weird to me that we put forth such a no-name team, to turn around and dress a mainly NHL roster.


Hiller gets stacked defense
Ortio gets AHL defense

How is that fair?

It has nothing to do with fairness. I just think it's a little far-fetched to guess that Flames management put together the line up for last game purely to test Ortio. There are a lot of other battles going outside of goaltending.

Yesterday you see who stands out above their competition. Today you'll see a belnd, maybe to see how the bubble guys look compared to NHL calibre players. Tomorrow you'll probably see a similar blend, but with different prospects and veterans.

The Flames are rolling 4 D sets at practice, my guess is one of the top 2 pairs isn't playing.

[dammage79]

It's going to be Hiller/Ortio for the Flames in the 2015/2016 season.

Hiller's always been better than Ramo. Always has, good chance he will be again this year. Hiller's still technically the #1 goalie for CGY. Ramo wasn't. Even if you want to call it 1A/1B, Hiller was 1A.

[Erick Estrada]

I think Hiller's number of starts over Ramo had more to do with Hiller playing than well it did with Ramo playing poorly (also he was injured a couple times I believe). I think most people see them pretty evenly, and that's why Hiller is the one proposed to trade because he has more of a league history and recognizability, and therefore will likely garner more in a trade. If you see them as relatively the same skill-wise, it only makes sense to trade the one that you think will return more.

Bottom line is that Hiller was a big part of the team having a successful season and IMO you can do too much tweaking for your own good as while I like the addition of Hamilton and Frolik I feel it's important to keep last year's team as much intact as possible as you look at the Avs for instance changing their chemistry letting go of Stastny and bringing in Iginla. I felt the biggest downfall in Sutter's GM history was the Ference/Kobasew trade and then you can look at how the Oilers went downhill after their 2006 run by having to undergo key changes. I just believe when you establish something good you try to not overly tinker with it. If Ramo can't perform adequately in a starter role and Ortio has rookie growing pains this team will have a high chance of disappointing. IMO Hiller's simply the safer bet here.

[Enoch Root]

as I said, so he'd get lit up and they could move him through waivers.

I think you're pretty naive if the management didn't at least think that was one of the possibilities.

On the other hand they said 'if the kid can play well given this AHL defense, then we really might have something here'


Maybe it's not 'setting him up to fail'.....maybe a better term is 'trial by fire'

Sure, okay then.

[tvp2003]

To everyone who is convinced Hiller is better than Ramo -- if that was the case, why did Ramo play 30+ games last season? Because Hiller was tired? Also, who ended up starting four out of the five games in the Anaheim series (despite losing 3 of them)?

My theory is that Hiller is more consistent, especially against lesser competition. He's a blocker, and against lesser teams, that is often good enough. However, against better teams (like Anaheim), he has a more difficult time because they have the ability to exploit his weaknesses. On the other hand, Ramo is more athletic and more dynamic, but also more inconsistent. That is why he gives us a chance against better teams (like Anaheim), but can also play some stinkers as well.

If Ortio can find the balance between the two -- athletic yet consistent -- I think you give him a chance to take the reigns. There is a reason why they brought Ramo back -- it was insurance in case Ortio didn't perform and all that was left was Hiller.

[Itse]

To everyone who is convinced Hiller is better than Ramo -- if that was the case, why did Ramo play 30+ games last season?

Because Hiller was not that much better. Just better.
Hiller was also better by every statistic. (GAA, win%, save%).

Personally I think Hiller and Ortio might make a good tandem because of their somewhat different styles. Gives the coaching staff options. I also think if you're going to go with a rookie goaltender, consistency is a key attribute for your other goalie.

EDIT: To put it another way:
Two inconsistent goalies is a huge risk for a team. If both go cold at the same time, it can send a team into a mental tailspin that can cost a ton of points.

[Geeoff]

Inb4 Ortio drops a .930 save % and we end up with another unsustainable PDO

[MisterJoji]

Aside from having one goalie in the press box per game, what is wrong with carrying 3 goalies for a short while? Play the hot hand(s) until it sorts itself out. Not ideal, but alternate goalies for the first 3 weeks or so until there's 2 clear cut guys and then waive/trade the "loser." If they get picked up on waivers that's great (your not going to get a great return in a trade anyways) if not you send them to Stockton. I really think Ortio will be one of the NHLers.

[ScorchyScorch]

Ramo's performance vs. Ducks (even despite results) > Hiller's vs Vancouver.

There's a little more risk in running with Ramo/Ortio, but also a higher ceiling for the season. And Ramo/Hiller were so similar in quality of play over the regular season that I don't think there's that much room for concern.

[GranteedEV]

Ramo's performance vs. Ducks (even despite results) > Hiller's vs Vancouver.

We watched totally different series then.

I saw Hiller shutting the door on Vrbata, Daniel Sedin, Bo Horvat, Henrik Sedin... all skilled forwards while shutting down everybody else period.

I saw Ramo getting lit up, invariably, by Matt Belesky.

Don't get me wrong, Ramo had some great saves, especially game 5 where he stood on his head.

At the end of the day, Ramo's .907 save percentage against the Ducks while Hiller was .931% against the Canucks.

We needed Ramo against the Ducks because he's better laterally and they were lighting us up on cross-ice passes. But he wasn't as good as we needed him to be. It was in that series where neither goaltender had the package needed to steal a series, so I don't blame Ramo or Hiller, but let's get real. If Ramo could have just stopped some of those very ordinary Matt Belesky shots, it might have been a 6 or 7 game series. I didn't think the Blackhawks were that much better against the Ducks than the Flames in games 2-5.

[Bingo]

So who's the odd man out in your opinion? I realize Ramo is the fan favorite here but it was largely Hiller that backstopped the team into the playoffs and in the first round playoff victory over the Canucks. I feel going with he and Ortio is the safest bet looking back on how things played out last year. Going with Ramo and Ortio is more of an unknown as Ramo was the backup last year and Ortio is still unproven.

So many schools of thought on that late Ramo signing.

1) Hiller odd man out
2) Ortio not ready
3) asset management
4) creating competition

or clearly a combination of the two or three or even four

I think Ramo wasn't signed earlier because they were hoping to avoid the situation they are in now (3 goalies all on one way, non waiver eligible contracts) and Ramo was asking for more than they liked.

Then July 1st comes and the goalie market is quiet, and Ramo drops his demands.

I think Haynes said it on twitter too ... hard to believe they'd go back to a goaltender they benched in the playoffs last year.

For me I see Hiller as a guy that got figured out. The Ducks dumped him for that reason, but he was perfect for a team like Calgary that nobody worried too much about in terms of advanced scouting.

Then you get to the playoffs and a team that knows him well exploits him.

This year the Flames won't be able to tiptoe into games and clearly the book on shooting high on Hiller will become a larger issue game to game. The logical step for Treliving is to improve the team in that area, and an Ortio Ramo tandem is likely the best way to achieve that without blowing up the budget with big names to sign next summer.

[Inferno]

I think Ramo has 0 trade value, and not because he isn't good but because he was a UFA and any team could have had him for free.

No they couldn't, he signed shortly before hitting free agency.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames-re-sign-karri-ramo-to-one-year-contract/

[GioforPM]

To everyone who is convinced Hiller is better than Ramo -- if that was the case, why did Ramo play 30+ games last season? Because Hiller was tired? Also, who ended up starting four out of the five games in the Anaheim series (despite losing 3 of them)?

My theory is that Hiller is more consistent, especially against lesser competition. He's a blocker, and against lesser teams, that is often good enough. However, against better teams (like Anaheim), he has a more difficult time because they have the ability to exploit his weaknesses. On the other hand, Ramo is more athletic and more dynamic, but also more inconsistent. That is why he gives us a chance against better teams (like Anaheim), but can also play some stinkers as well.

If Ortio can find the balance between the two -- athletic yet consistent -- I think you give him a chance to take the reigns. There is a reason why they brought Ramo back -- it was insurance in case Ortio didn't perform and all that was left was Hiller.

Why would you use that argument? Sure Ramo started 30 games. Hiller started more.

And he started the last 4 games against Anaheim because Hiller lost the first one, and because he looked pretty good in the second, despite a loss. Then he won the third game, so he started the fourth.

I still think Hartley preferred Hiller slightly, seeing as how he started him against Vancouver and Anaheim (despite Ramo getting the series clincher against the Canucks). Hiller's leash was just a tad longer IMO.

I'm not saying one is preferable versus each other- but as a combo with Ortio, I'd lean towards Hiller.

[getbak]

Aside from having one goalie in the press box per game, what is wrong with carrying 3 goalies for a short while? Play the hot hand(s) until it sorts itself out. Not ideal, but alternate goalies for the first 3 weeks or so until there's 2 clear cut guys and then waive/trade the "loser." If they get picked up on waivers that's great (your not going to get a great return in a trade anyways) if not you send them to Stockton. I really think Ortio will be one of the NHLers.
The biggest issue is the 23 man roster limit. If you carry 3 goalies, that means you can only carry 13 forwards and 7 defencemen (or 14 forwards and 6 defence, but that's unlikely because you could get caught having no replacement D if there's a last minute injury).

Keeping an extra goalie in Calgary means having to send another forward who's on a one-way deal through waivers.

[Alberta_Beef]

The biggest issue is the 23 man roster limit. If you carry 3 goalies, that means you can only carry 13 forwards and 7 defencemen (or 14 forwards and 6 defence, but that's unlikely because you could get caught having no replacement D if there's a last minute injury).

Keeping an extra goalie in Calgary means having to send another forward who's on a one-way deal through waivers.

And practice time, there isn't enough time to go around.

[GioforPM]

The biggest issue is the 23 man roster limit. If you carry 3 goalies, that means you can only carry 13 forwards and 7 defencemen (or 14 forwards and 6 defence, but that's unlikely because you could get caught having no replacement D if there's a last minute injury).

Keeping an extra goalie in Calgary means having to send another forward who's on a one-way deal through waivers.

"Hey Mason. Brian wants to see you."

[Erick Estrada]

So many schools of thought on that late Ramo signing.

1) Hiller odd man out
2) Ortio not ready
3) asset management
4) creating competition

or clearly a combination of the two or three or even four

I think Ramo wasn't signed earlier because they were hoping to avoid the situation they are in now (3 goalies all on one way, non waiver eligible contracts) and Ramo was asking for more than they liked.

Then July 1st comes and the goalie market is quiet, and Ramo drops his demands.

I think Haynes said it on twitter too ... hard to believe they'd go back to a goaltender they benched in the playoffs last year.

For me I see Hiller as a guy that got figured out. The Ducks dumped him for that reason, but he was perfect for a team like Calgary that nobody worried too much about in terms of advanced scouting.

Then you get to the playoffs and a team that knows him well exploits him.

This year the Flames won't be able to tiptoe into games and clearly the book on shooting high on Hiller will become a larger issue game to game. The logical step for Treliving is to improve the team in that area, and an Ortio Ramo tandem is likely the best way to achieve that without blowing up the budget with big names to sign next summer.

Well to be honest nobody will ever figure out Ramo as the way he plays is so unpredictable he either looks really good or really bad. I don't believe teams just figured out Hiller last year. He's been around for a while and you have to beat him with a good shot and while Ramo can be more acrobatic he's beat from all sorts of strange angles. I would prefer a steady guy go split with Ortio. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this plays out.

[tvp2003]

Why would you use that argument? Sure Ramo started 30 games. Hiller started more.

And he started the last 4 games against Anaheim because Hiller lost the first one, and because he looked pretty good in the second, despite a loss. Then he won the third game, so he started the fourth.

I still think Hartley preferred Hiller slightly, seeing as how he started him against Vancouver and Anaheim (despite Ramo getting the series clincher against the Canucks). Hiller's leash was just a tad longer IMO.

I'm not saying one is preferable versus each other- but as a combo with Ortio, I'd lean towards Hiller.

The point I was trying to make was that at there were multiple times last year where Hiller was better that Ramo, and there were also multiple times that Ramo was better than Hiller. As such, I don't agree with some of the posters who are making absolute statements like "Hiller is better than Ramo" because there were many occasions where that was not the case.

I appreciate the thought that Hiller is more consistent and therefore better to pair a steady guy with Ortio (instead of Ramo); if Ortio lights the world on fire and becomes the #1, I'd be quite content with Hiller as a backup. But if there is no clear cut #1, I think the Hiller and Ramo are pretty even.

Regarding Hartley, I agree that his leash was longer for Hiller, but recall that he turned to Ramo to play those last few games down the stretch (starting in Edmonton), before he got injured. Fortunately, Hiller stepped in and played well, and was the clear #1 for the Vancouver series (while Ramo was injured).

[dammage79]

The point I was trying to make was that at there were multiple times last year where Hiller was better that Ramo, and there were also multiple times that Ramo was better than Hiller. As such, I don't agree with some of the posters who are making absolute statements like "Hiller is better than Ramo" because there were many occasions where that was not the case.

I appreciate the thought that Hiller is more consistent and therefore better to pair a steady guy with Ortio (instead of Ramo); if Ortio lights the world on fire and becomes the #1, I'd be quite content with Hiller as a backup. But if there is no clear cut #1, I think the Hiller and Ramo are pretty even.

Regarding Hartley, I agree that his leash was longer for Hiller, but recall that he turned to Ramo to play those last few games down the stretch (starting in Edmonton), before he got injured. Fortunately, Hiller stepped in and played well, and was the clear #1 for the Vancouver series (while Ramo was injured).

Absolute statement? Sure it is, it has to be. Everything between the two statistically and career wise says so. Hiller is better than Ramo, always has been, thats a fact. No way around it. And since we're talking absolutes here. How about the other side of the coin where for the past 2 months almost everyone around here spoke in absolutes that Hiller was the odd man out. More so than the Hiller side. I piped up last night during the game because it was getting ridiculous about how much a forgone conclusion it was that Ortio was after Hillers job and Not Ramo's.

At the end of the day, the real goaltending battle lies betwen Hiller and Ramo for one spot. The other I am more than confident is Ortio's.

IMO, you want the experience Hiller brings to the table paired with Ortio. Consider it the very dame reasoning they went with the Ramo/Hiller Tandem last year, Because Ramo had to prove himself consistently, and since he didn't Hiller was there eating up the starts. If Ramo was better or the coaches had more faith in Ramo, he'd have gotten more starts.

[GioforPM]

The point I was trying to make was that at there were multiple times last year where Hiller was better that Ramo, and there were also multiple times that Ramo was better than Hiller. As such, I don't agree with some of the posters who are making absolute statements like "Hiller is better than Ramo" because there were many occasions where that was not the case.



Well sure, on any given night one goalie is better than another. On Hallowe'en last year Ryan Miller was better than Carey Price. When people said "better" about Hiller they meant over the season.

Now in this case, yes, both goalies tended to be streaky and Hartley was good (especially early on) in figuring out who was trending which way.

[dissentowner]

It will be interesting to see who moves between Hiller and Ramo. All I know is Ortio needs more skulls on his mask.

[tvp2003]

Absolute statement? Sure it is, it has to be. Everything between the two statistically and career wise says so. Hiller is better than Ramo, always has been, thats a fact. No way around it.

I'll suggest that Bob Hartley disagrees its as clear-cut as you contend. And to a lesser extent Brad Treliving, who saw fit to re-sign Ramo (although, as Bingo noted, we can only speculate as to the reasons why).

And I'll concede Hiller was lights out during the Anaheim glory years, but comparing his work last year to Ramo's work in the last year and a half, and trying to project that to 2015/16, I think it's closer than the stats might suggest.

[Komskies]

You know you're doing well when you get your frickin' thread.

[Harry Lime]

You don't sign or re-sign someone to a multi-year contract and then trade them before they even play one game under that contract. BT would be poisoning contract talks moving forward with both free agents and existing players.

[dammage79]

You don't sign or re-sign someone to a multi-year contract and then trade them before they even play one game under that contract. BT would be poisoning contract talks moving forward with both free agents and existing players.

A one year deal is a multi-year deal? I'm sure Ramo knew full well nothing was guaranteed.

[Finger Cookin]

You don't sign or re-sign someone to a multi-year contract and then trade them before they even play one game under that contract. BT would be poisoning contract talks moving forward with both free agents and existing players.

What is this in reference to? Hiller's contract is expiring this season, Ramo was re-signed to a 1 year deal this summer, and Ortio's contract is expiring this season.

[Caged Great]

That's probably why the Flames gave him 3.8. The uncertainty of whether he would remain a Flame. He gets paid either way, so it's no big deal where he goes or stays.

[FireGilbert]

Friken indeed! Ortio reminds me of Kipper in so many ways and I really hope he can grab the starting job this year. I don't ever care about getting a trade return for Hiller at the moment, just put him on waivers ASAP!

Also, I am very confused, can someone please clarify if I am allowed to call him Joni Oreo? Is it okay as long as it's not in the thread title or I don't mention Oreo cookies? Does this also apply to Johnny Hockey and Skittles?

[CroFlames]

Friken indeed! Ortio reminds me of Kipper in so many ways and I really hope he can grab the starting job this year. I don't ever care about getting a trade return for Hiller at the moment, just put him on waivers ASAP!

Also, I am very confused, can someone please clarify if I am allowed to call him Joni Oreo? Is it okay as long as it's not in the thread title or I don't mention Oreo cookies? Does this also apply to Johnny Hockey and Skittles?

A total of 1 poster got his panties in a bunch over it. You are fine to call him Oreo.

The whole goalie thing makes me uncomfortable though. Each of Hiller and Ramo should greatness and inconsistency throughout the year, and despite Ortio's apparent talent, he is unproven.

My gut tells me Hiller is going to be moved and BT will roll the dice with Ortio and Ramo, but may even pickup another vet goalie to play minors just in case.

[Reggie Dunlop]

How about "Ramortio" for the tandem of Finnish goalies?

[driveway]

From what I've read recently, Hartley prefers Ramo to Hiller:



Ramo stays in Calgary as well. Head coach Bob Hartley prefers the elder Finn, and he’s likely a better stable mate and mentor for his young countryman Ortio, who still requires some grooming.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/who-is-the-no-1-goalie-for-the-calgary-flames/

[CroFlames]

How about "Ramortio" for the tandem of Finnish goalies?

Ortamo.

[Da_Chief]

Absolute statement? Sure it is, it has to be. Everything between the two statistically and career wise says so. Hiller is better than Ramo, always has been, thats a fact. No way around it. And since we're talking absolutes here. How about the other side of the coin where for the past 2 months almost everyone around here spoke in absolutes that Hiller was the odd man out. More so than the Hiller side. I piped up last night during the game because it was getting ridiculous about how much a forgone conclusion it was that Ortio was after Hillers job and Not Ramo's.

At the end of the day, the real goaltending battle lies betwen Hiller and Ramo for one spot. The other I am more than confident is Ortio's.

IMO, you want the experience Hiller brings to the table paired with Ortio. Consider it the very dame reasoning they went with the Ramo/Hiller Tandem last year, Because Ramo had to prove himself consistently, and since he didn't Hiller was there eating up the starts. If Ramo was better or the coaches had more faith in Ramo, he'd have gotten more starts.

Is that why Ramo was drafted into the NHL while Hiller was an unsigned. Hiller might have been better at one point but he sure as hell isn't right now.

Hiller was going to get starts last year, he was going to be the guy who let Ramo ease into the action but instead it went the other way. Hiller had some outstanding games which really made his numbers look better then what they were. He's an inconsistent goalie who doesn't have the quickness or the athletic ability. Once he goes down he stays down.

Here's my theory on 3 in 3 nights:
Ortio goes with AHL D on the road so he can prove himself
Hiller gets stacked D so they can show he can be a decent goalie behind good D
Ramo likely gets much lesser roster tomorrow on the road

To me that looks like getting Ortio and Ramo to play the tough situations and upping whatever value Hiller has.

I agree with you that it's going to be Ortio + Hiller/Ramo but my money's on Ramo.