Is Brodie now a 3rd pairing DMan?

[Serapth]

This is a thought that never ever entered my head. The Gio/TJ pairing is perhaps the best in the league last year.

Today I read this article on TSN about the Flames (http://www.tsn.ca/flames-ready-to-meet-higher-expectations-1.359043). Among it, they gave their projected lineup, and for the lazy I included it below:

http://i.imgur.com/BHXTytS.png

At first I dismissed this as pure stupidity, I mean there is simply no way Brodie would be on the 3rd pairing. Then after thinking about it a bit more, well... it kinda makes sense. The Russel/Wideman pairing is already well established and not too many teams would say no to that combo as their second pair. Hamilton I is the new star player and of course Gio IS what makes it the first pair in the first place. So, does that leave Brodie the odd man out?



/ In all honesty, look at the depth chart, we really need to make a couple trades! At the same time, I disagree with the 3rd/4th lines and a few of the "on the bubble" picks. In fact this list looks nothing like one I'd have made personally, but for the most part it does make sense.

[YYC in LAX]

No

[getbak]

No

[Serapth]

No

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

[FFR]

Yeah - what he said ^. No. Definitely not. I don't think you break up Brodie and Giordano. I think you look at playing Hamilton with Russell. Then play your third pairing as a combination of Engellend/Nakladal/Wotherspoon/Wideman/???.

There is no way Brodie is a third pairing defenseman. I think he has a higher ceiling than Giordano.

[FFR]

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

So in your first post you say you think Brodio/Giordano was one of the best pairings in the league last year. But you are willing to break them up. Yet you don't want to mess with Russell/Wideman because they were very good and it's dangerous to mess with that. So which is it? Is it dangerous to mess with very good, or not? I think you have to keep your top pairing together. I think Wideman is cleary the odd man out of this - he's the one that drops to a third pairing.

[Alberta_Beef]

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Wides
Russell-Engel

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Why are we wanting to split up the Gio-Brodie pairing? That's crazy talk.

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Smid

[Serapth]

So in your first post you say you think Brodio/Giordano was one of the best pairings in the league last year. But you are willing to break them up. Yet you don't want to mess with Russell/Wideman because they were very good and it's dangerous to mess with that. So which is it? Is it dangerous to mess with very good, or not? I think you have to keep your top pairing together. I think Wideman is cleary the odd man out of this - he's the one that drops to a third pairing.

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

[PugnaciousIntern]

No

[Serapth]

Why are we wanting to split up the Gio-Brodie pairing? That's crazy talk.

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Smid


This was my assumed pairing up until now, with Wotherspoon as the 7th/8th, depending on Smid's status. I think deep down it's the pairing I'd like to see too, but the TSN lines did get me thinking about the situation.

[FFR]

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

Fair enough. Though I think Russell hasn't been given a lot of opportunity to show he can play better because him and Wideman played so well together last season. I think a lot of people underestimate Russell. I think he's a better defenseman than most people think - both offensively and defensively. I think he is better than the combination of Wideman/Russell (whereas I think Wideman has hit his peak - he is what he is). I think they should give Russell the chance with Hamilton to see what he can do and if he can step up his game further.

[Enoch Root]

Mostly because after Gio went down, Brodie showed that he could play with other players, in fact make them play much better.

On the other hand, Russel and Wideman seem to have greatly exceeded expectations and a lot of it the chemistry between them. Together are they better than the sum of their parts? I don't think so.


In NO way am I saying Brodie is a 3rd pairing DMan, he is easily a 1A/1B. He has however proven he can play with and be extremely successful with other players. In fact, it is Brodie's skill that makes him so flexible on who he can be paired with.

Of course Brodie can play with other defenders. So can Giordano. So can Russell and Wideman, and any other quality NHL defenseman.

That's not a reason to break up a pairing that works.

I have said this in another thread already, but the idea of breaking up Giordano and Brodie, so that you don't break up Russell and Wideman, is so ludicrous that it is difficult to respond to.

When setting up the defense, start with your best players and do what makes sense with them. Then work your way down to the guys that will get less ice-time and less key ice-time.

This training camp is going to be all about who works well with Hamilton.

Maybe that's Russell. Maybe its Engelland or Smid or Wotherspoon. Or maybe it's Giordano or Brodie.

But if you're going to break up Giordano/Brodie, there has to be a damn good reason for it. And there has to be a great alternative option for whichever one isn't playing with Hamilton.

I think some fans may be getting ahead of themselves with Hamilton. He is a great player. He has UNLIMITED potential. But right now, Giordano and Brodie are both better defensemen.

That won't continue to be true forever. And it might not even be true in a year. But right now, today, Hamilton isn't as good as Giordano or Brodie.

[Serapth]

When setting up the defense, start with your best players and do what makes sense with them. Then work your way down to the guys that will get less ice-time and less key ice-time.


Well, this is exactly the problem.

Gio/Hamilton/Brodie

Who are the best two?


It's not an easy question to answer, and the reason why this is even a question. You clearly rank Hamilton as the 3rd in that list. I don't know yet.

[shermanator]

http://media.giphy.com/media/Hg5dTkuPwvcDS/giphy.gif

[Yamer]

The biggest problem for me is that most of us are still stuck in the traditional conceptualization of 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th line combinations and their subsequent correlation with skill level and ice-time.

In reality many teams have different combinations of 1A/1B or 2A/2B lines. Each line has a role to play, and their ice-time and effectiveness is purely dependent on the game at hand.

I would imagine there is a lot of slotting in and out with the kind of defensive depth the Flames have. To me, Brodie can be generally classified as a Top 3 defender on a majority of teams in the league.

[Resolute 14]

Jesus... the Chart was very obviously organized by left shot and right shot, not by pairing.

[GranteedEV]

Brodie is top pairing on any team in the NHL from Tampa to Nashville.

The Russell-Wideman does not need to be preserved.

[Serapth]

Brodie is top pairing on any team in the NHL from Tampa to Nashville.

So is Gio, so is Hamilton.

[sworkhard]

Hamilton shoots right, so I could see him playing beside Gio with Brodie playing the left side with Wideman.

Russel should be part of the 3rd pairing with whoever else makes it there. I expect even strength ice time to be much more even between the pairs this year than last year.

[FFR]

Well, this is exactly the problem.

Gio/Hamilton/Brodie

Who are the best two?


It's not an easy question to answer, and the reason why this is even a question. You clearly rank Hamilton as the 3rd in that list. I don't know yet.

OK - lets say we can't pick the top two out of Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton. But I think we can generally agree that all three of them are better than Russell and Wideman. So then, wouldn't it make sense to keep one of the best defence pairings in the NHL last season together and breakup the pair below to accommodate Hamilton?

And to Yamer's credit (who posted above). Just because a player is listed lower on the pairing list doesn't necessarily mean they are a lesser player. All players have their strengths and weaknesses and when used correctly in appropriate situations, all players can be effective. See Engellend with Brodie last year. That being said, there's no way you put Brodie with Engellend and have him only play 8-12 minutes a night.

[Mike F]

Well, this is exactly the problem.

Gio/Hamilton/Brodie

Who are the best two?


It's not an easy question to answer, and the reason why this is even a question. You clearly rank Hamilton as the 3rd in that list. I don't know yet.
Even if Gio and Hamilton are deemed to be the two best and work so well together that you have to break up Gio and Brodie, that doesn't mean you move Brodie al the way down to 3rd pairing. Brodie becomes the anchor of the second pairing, and you find who works best with him. Yes, that will likely mean breaking up Russell and Wideman, but that is an acceptable necessity.

[FFR]

So is Gio, so is Hamilton.

Yes. You are right. So why put Brodie as the "third pairing" and keep Russell and Wideman together? That's where I'm confused with your logic. You are talking big on the top 3 defencemen, but somehow, the Russell/Wideman pairing is spectacular enough that you would place one of the top three defencemen on the so-called bottom pairing. I think you can tell by nearly everyone's posts that the simple answer to your question is that Russell or Wideman gets moved down.

[getbak]

I expect Hartley to be experimenting a lot with different combinations in the preseason. I don't think he'll hesitate to split up Russell and Wideman if it comes to that, and it most likely will.

[Serapth]

Yes. You are right. So why put Brodie as the "third pairing" and keep Russell and Wideman together? That's where I'm confused with your logic. You are talking big on the top 3 defencemen, but somehow, the Russell/Wideman pairing is spectacular enough that you would place one of the top three defencemen on the so-called bottom pairing. I think you can tell by nearly everyone's posts that the simple answer to your question is that Russell or Wideman gets moved down.

If it's ordering, sure.. I don't really care. Should Brodie get more icetime than Wideman/Russel? Of course.


The reason I wouldn't break Wideman/Russel up is because I do think together they are better than the sum of their parts. While I think Gio + Brodie are great because they are two great players. I hope that Gio + Ham or Ham + Bro are the same, great because the individual components are great.

Now with Engellend + Brodie, Engellend improved MASSIVELY being paired with Brodie. I wanted this bum off the team until Gio went down, then he continued to amaze me.

Would it make you feel better if it was listed:
Gio/Ham
Bro/Eng
Wid/Rus
Et/al
?



As another poster said, I think we will see much more even distribution of minutes across the defence.

[Matata]

Brodie on the third pairing is still getting 20 mins/night, I think it would push his role to being a defensive specialist and would see him moving up and down the line up throughout the game. I imagine our #6 D for the upcoming season is going to be a revolving door, brodie would be able to protect whoever is filling that role.

These pairs let the D play in their natural positions and I have more faith in Brodie's ability to carry a pair than in Hamilton. D pairing's like Russel - Engelland make me cringe a bit, and Brodie on the third pairing prevents the flames from ever having to play a 'weak-link' pairing. Your not getting Brodie back on the first line without splitting up Russel - Wideman, keeping that pair together should also be priority.

[ricardodw]

The real question is how good Russell -Wideman really ius.


When Gio was hurt they were not only the #1 pairing on the Flames they were the best #1 pairing in the league.

Against the other teams best lines in a tight playoff race:

Wideman 19 games 19 pts +6 27+ minutes a game
Russell 19 games 14 pots +8 26+ minutes/game


Both Russell (8 years) and Wideman (10 years) are veteran NHL players that have not played at this level with any other of dozens of other partners.

Hamilton, while brimming with potential, has had 1 season as a top -4 D-man on a non-playoff team and one year as 4/5. He has never been on a top pairing like Gio-Brodie or Russell-Wideman. Not saying he won't or can't be, but so far he hasn't been.

I think that in the reality of line mixing/matching that Hartley will go with the best 4 guys in the 3rd periods based on how they are playing the first 2 periods.

Wideman will likely get a lot of minutes as he manages his effort so well and plays better when he gets every 2nd shift.

[Serapth]

D pairing's like Russel - Engelland make me cringe a bit, and Brodie on the third pairing prevents the flames from ever having to play a 'weak-link' pairing. Your not getting Brodie back on the first line without splitting up Russel - Wideman, keeping that pair together should also be priority.

I still remember the beginning of last season where it felt like every single time it was Englland/Smid on the ice, the puck was in our net. Spreading the talent around should prevent this.

[Mattman]

Although I love the Russel and Wideman pairing I would rather split them up to keep from giving Brodie 3rd pairing minutes.

Also was a Brodie-Wideman pairing ever explored during this past season?

If so then my Oct 7th Line-up for D goes like this:

Gio-Hamiliton
Brodie-Wideman
Russel-Nakladel
Engelland

[indes]

I bet we see some double shifting between Brodie and Giordano to have them
hover around 24 minutes a night.

[Matata]

always having a fresh Geo or Brodie for the penalty kill would be awesome.

[schteve_d]

Our defense is un-real. It's fun to even contemplate that Brodie could be a third pairing!

[Finger Cookin]

Is Sam Bennett a fourth line centre? Is Drew Shore a lock to make the team? Is Ortio not a part of the goaltending picture?

Take this for what it is - a quick preview on a website focused on cranking out previews for 8 Canadian teams before camp starts next week. These questions will be answered over the course of camp, and throughout the season.

[BruceCody]

tsn use random machine

[GranteedEV]

Engelland is not a top 4 defenseman and Brodie is not a bottom pair defenseman. Neither of those are options going into next season. At All.

If healthy, there are a grand total of four line permutations people can expect next season

1)

Giordano-Brodie (Elite Shutdown Pair)
Russell-Hamilton (Classic Middle Pair)
Smid-Wideman (Classic bottom pair)

2)

Giordano-Hamilton (Elite shutdown pair)
Brodie-Wideman (Offensive Middle pair)
Russell-Engelland (Classic Bottom Pair)

3)
Giordano-Brodie (Elite Shutdown Pair)
Russell-Hamilton (Classic Middle Pair)
Wideman-Engelland (Two-righties bottom pair, just like Diaz/Engelland last year)

4)
Giordano-Brodie (Elite Shutdown Pair)
Wilson-Hamilton (Classic Middle Pair)
Russell-Wideman (for those who actually think this pairing needs to be preserved when it really doesn't)


Any permutation that involves downgrading the quality of the middle pairing to make Deryk Engelland a salvageably roster player will not happen in anything other than spurts.

Having three top pairing defenseman is great. Keep them on your top 3 like any sensible team and have a competent #4 like any sensible team. It ain't rocket science.

[YYC in LAX]

Then how do you break down the lines? It's either Brodie/Gio or Hamilton/Gio and the other gets pushed down the depth chart. The Russel/Wideman tandem is very good and it's dangerous to mess with that, so where does that leave you?


I'll let Hartley run his team, but how can you say that Russell/Wideman is very good and don't want to break it, but then you're willing to break up Gio/Brodie? I understand bringing in Hamilton changes things, but to answer your original question, no, Brodie is not a 3rd pairing guy IMO. Valid question, but I don't expect the proposed TSN lines will be the ones Hartley puts out.

[Bunk]

Russell

Good God, people.

[Serapth]

I'll let Hartley run his team, but how can you say that Russell/Wideman is very good and don't want to break it, but then you're willing to break up Gio/Brodie? I understand bringing in Hamilton changes things, but to answer your original question, no, Brodie is not a 3rd pairing guy IMO. Valid question, but I don't expect the proposed TSN lines will be the ones Hartley puts out.

Because Gio/Brodie were already broken and Brodie continued to thrive on his own.

[mdubz]

Jesus... the Chart was very obviously organized by left shot and right shot, not by pairing.

It's also inferring that Brodie is lower on the depth chart than Russell.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Not wanting to split up the Wideman/Russell pairing is a silly argument.

Gio/Brodie were the undisputed best pairing in the league last year so why would you split them up and not our 2nd pairing?

Not to mention Brodie is our most well conditioned player who skates more miles than anyone else on the team. You don't cut ice time from players like that.

[Itse]

Brodie and Giordano will be great with anybody, I don't see that as a problem at all. I think Russell is the same, although replace "Great" with "fine", as he's obviously a notch below these two guys.

For me the relevant questions are:

1) Who is the best partner for Hamilton? While good already, if we want him to develop to his full potential you probably want to pay attention to who he plays with.

2) Never make a pair out of Wideman, Smid and Engelland. These guys need a faster skater with them to be effective.

That's pretty much it. The rest will IMO work out pretty much any way you shake it.

[blankall]

How much of the season do people expect us to have all five of our top dmen healthy for. At any given time, we're probably going to have at least one out.

During times when all five are healthy, Russell and wideman will probably do a 4/5 thing with more PP time.

[ComixZone]

I think it ends up being...

Brodie - Hamilton
Giordano - Andersson
Russell - Wideman
Engelland

and we win the Stanley Cup.

[hockey.modern]

I think it ends up being...

Brodie - Hamilton
Giordano - Andersson
Russell - Wideman
Engelland

and we win the Stanley Cup.


We're not winning a Stanley Cup if engelland is still here

[GreenLantern2814]

Gio-Brodie
Wideman-Hamilton
Russell-Engelland

Both guys with footspeed issues have a speedy partner. Engelland offsets Russell's lack of size, and Wideman playing 20 minutes a night on the second pair with Dougie shouldn't get anyone upset.

[GullFoss]

Just throwing it out there, but what if hartley rolls all three pairings during 5-on-5 with the only thjng seperating ice time being special teams?

5-on-5 (48 min a night)

Brodie gio (16 min)
Russel wideman (16)
Eng hamilton (16)

PP - 6 min
Gio brodie - 3 min
Hamilton wideman - 3 min

Pk - 6 mins
Hamilton engel russel (3 min)
Gio brodie (3 min)

Gio: 22 min
Brodie 22 min
Hamil 21 min
Russel 18 min
Wideman 19 min
Engel 18 min

[MisterJoji]

I cannot wait for preseason to how the D pairings take shape. Having too many quality D is a nice problem to have. It entirely possible to have a 1A/1B/2 situation.

1A: any combo of Gio/Brodie/Hamilton. 23 minutes TOI.

1B: whoever is left from Gio/Brodie/Hamilton + Wideman/Russell. 20 minutes TOI.

2: whoever is left between Wideman/Russell + Engelland/W'spoon/Morrison/Smid etc. 17 minutes TOI.

[ricardodw]

We're not winning a Stanley Cup if engelland is still here

Because the #6 D-man is the key to the whole winning thing? Chicago basically went with 4 d-men when they won the SC.... pretty sure Engelland could have subbed in for their #6/7 or 8 with no negative impact.

[CliffFletcher]

Not wanting to split up the Wideman/Russell pairing is a silly argument.


Yep. People are talking like they're Keith-Seabrook.

And I like Russell better then Wideman. He holds the puck better and can skate his way out of trouble. Wideman can play third pairing and second PP unit.

[Enoch Root]

We're not winning a Stanley Cup if engelland is still here

They had an 18 year old in the top 4 and your concern was with Engelland as the #7?

[PepsiFree]

Am I one of the few who thinks Brodie is better than Hamilton?

Love the trade, great piece with huge potential, but I don't know if Brodie gets as much credit now that the new toy is in the box.

Gio/Brodie
Then fill in the other four with whatever works best.

I'd move KR down to third pairing probably, because I think he can save a questionable partner.

[GranteedEV]

Am I one of the few who thinks Brodie is better than Hamilton?

You're not. Brodie does things that we can only hope Hamilton can do.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Am I one of the few who thinks Brodie is better than Hamilton?

Love the trade, great piece with huge potential, but I don't know if Brodie gets as much credit now that the new toy is in the box.

Gio/Brodie
Then fill in the other four with whatever works best.

I'd move KR down to third pairing probably, because I think he can save a questionable partner.

I think the majority of CP thinks Brodie now is currently better than Hamilton, but you have to consider that Hamilton is 3 years younger. He was an established NHLer at 18 and it's exciting to think of what he can do in the Flames offensive system. Hamilton has a lot of desirable attributes that you want in a top pairing defenseman.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Wideman always seems to be on the verge of becoming a whipping boy of sorts. It is crazy to me that people don't like him more as he has shown himself capable of playing top-pairing minutes without drowning. Is he is a good defensively as Giordano? No, but he is much better defensively then I think one would assume from reading Wideman-related posts.

As for Brodie - I think he is better than Hamilton today (as a few posters have mentioned). If the whole thing is about keeping Russell-Wideman together, then shouldn't the question be: "Is Hamilton a 3rd pairing defencemen now?"

At any rate, I definitely agree with posters like Pierre with a lineup like:

Giodano-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Smid

The biggest question marks will come when guys like Wotherspoon, Nakladal and Morrison make that push, and who they end up displacing.

[_Q_]

Is it more important to keep a fantastic second pair together, or one of the best first pairs in the league? Once you think of it this way, then it becomes a no-brainer.

Keep Gio-Brodie together and let Hamilton anchor the second pairing with whoever he finds chemistry with. The rest will just fall into place.

[You Need a Thneed]

Brodie was legitimately the best defensemen on the team for bunches of games last season, that with Gio in the lineup. Early in the season, you could have made an argument that Brodie was the best defenseman in the entire league at that point. He didn't slip much from that level all season.

It's not inconceivable that he could be the Flames best defenseman this coming season.

He's not going to be anywhere near the third pairing.

[doctajones428]

Maybe they are assuming Engelland can always play big minutes like he did when Gio got hurt? Not to mention that Brodie really helped him elevate his play

Pair 1: Giordano - Hamilton (25 mins)
Pair 2a: Rusell - Wideman (17.5 mins)
Pair 2b: Brodie - Engelland (17.5 mins)

Not that I agree Brodie should be on the bottom pair though

[Freeway]

Hey, did anybody see that movie, Tron?

[kehatch]

nm

[Fire]

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Engelland

Make the most sense in my opinion. I also don't see the need to keep Russell and Wideman or Giordano and Brodie together.

[DoubleF]

My guess is...

Brodie as 3rd pairing is silly. If anything, Hamilton should go to 3rd pairing. Earned not given.

However, IF Hamilton is with Gio for "tutoring" (for the sake of argument), IMO, Brodie holds a 2A/2B tandem with Wideman and Russell + other random player mixture. Those 4 players will mix in different combos until some type of chemistry mix that works consistently. "Other random player" might even be a trade for a player that can do good #4/5 duties with Brodie that fits our team mold. Who knows. But IMO, it's more likely Engelland until Morrison, Nakladal or someone else steps up.

[Dan02]

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Engelland/smid



Those definitely look like some solid pairings to me, everytime i see someone suggest Wideman and Englland/Smid together i shudder at the number of times we're going to see a speedster go around them.

Wideman needs to be with someone whose got speed to make up for his complete lack of it.

[ricardodw]

I think the majority of CP thinks Brodie now is currently better than Hamilton, but you have to consider that Hamilton is 3 years younger. He was an established NHLer at 18 and it's exciting to think of what he can do in the Flames offensive system. Hamilton has a lot of desirable attributes that you want in a top pairing defenseman.

And it quite an accomplishment being an established NHler at 18 considering his first NHL game was Jan 19 2013 ... BD June 17 1993...

[Reggie Dunlop]

Good problem to have.

A blueline so strong you could mix and match.

[ScorchyScorch]

Gio - Brodie
Russell - Hamilton

Gives you the best possible top 4 that can hold their own against anyone's top 6. Russell seemed to have found a new gear in his offensive game towards the end of the season, and still being relatively young I think could thrive in that regard with Hamilton. Develop long term pairings. All 4 guys will be here for another 5+ years barring moves. Wideman, while effective offensively isn't as much in the long term plans. You build 1a/b pairings you can roll with for the next several seasons. Utilize Wideman on the PP where you can make use of his offensive game.

[Vulcan]

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Engelland
Smid - Nakladal
Wotherspoon - Morrison

Make the most sense in my opinion. I also don't see the need to keep Russell and Wideman or Giordano and Brodie together.

This is pretty much our depth projections with RH and LH shots staying where they should be. Brodie can play both sides in the event of injury or if Hartley wants to shorten the bench. Ryan Wilson may grab a job as well since Smid may not be ready.

[ScorchyScorch]

Hamilton is pretty close to Brodie's level right now...except he's a few years younger*. That tells you a lot about where he'll project to be. Brodie's effectiveness comes from his skating ability allowing him to join the rush as an extra forward and still get back to defend, and setting up plays with great passes. Dougie has a bigger frame and can do it all. By Brodie's age he'll probably be pumping out similar points to Wideman's last season or better, while doing things right in his own zone.

[Tinordi]

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.358478!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/dangerous-shots-graph.PNG

Brodie's in a category of his own in denying shooting opportunities in the crease. Not a 3rd pairing defenceman.

From this story: http://www.tsn.ca/you-don-t-have-to-be-chara-to-be-an-effective-nhl-defenceman-1.358467

Also: Yikes Wideman.

[pgsieve]

I am surprised so many people are writing off Russell. I thought he was one of the better D we had last year and he is still a relatively young guy. To me.. Russell was intentionally put on a different line from Brodie to even up the defence. If we went with Brodie/Russell when Gio went down, we would have a much bigger hole on the 2 D pairing. I don't mind Russell/Hamilton as the second pairing and you put Wideman on the third pair so he has more gas and can be more of a PP specialist.

[Itse]

Regardless of pairings, I hope we see Wideman on ice with Gaudreau. Wideman was one of the best last season at taking advantage of Gaudreaus passes.

I guess that speaks highly of Widemans hockey IQ.

(I'm sure that will happen on PP at the very least.)

[ComixZone]

I am surprised so many people are writing off Russell. I thought he was one of the better D we had last year and he is still a relatively young guy. To me.. Russell was intentionally put on a different line from Brodie to even up the defence. If we went with Brodie/Russell when Gio went down, we would have a much bigger hole on the 2 D pairing. I don't mind Russell/Hamilton as the second pairing and you put Wideman on the third pair so he has more gas and can be more of a PP specialist.

Russell's strengths come into play when he has the puck.

In the defensive zone, without the puck, he severely struggles in regaining possession. He and Wideman both struggle with this. Their solution to getting the puck back is blocking a shot, and hopefully having it go to one of their forwards or defensive partner.

However, when they do have the puck - both Wideman and Russell are quite good at moving it up the ice and pushing the offensive tempo.

1A: Giordano
1B: Brodie
2: Hamilton
3: Wideman
4: Russell
5: Engelland
6: Smid

[Vinny01]

Brodie will be top 4. Either Russell or Wideman moves to the third pair.

Gio-Brodie
Russell- Hamilton

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Wideman

Gio-Hamilton
Russell-Brodie

Brodie-Hamilton
Gio-Wideman

[Poe969]

I don't think it matters. I think they'll all play top pairing at some point and they'll all play third pairing at some point. The Flames have 5 pretty awesome defenders and depending how camp goes, they may have 6 or more. Having that much talent on the blue line just means you have to go with what's working at the time and lets face it, some guys will get hot and some will get cold. As for who plays with who, it depends on who develops the most chemistry. I loved the chemistry between Russell and Wideman but they will likely have to be broken up, Gio and Brodie were the best pair in the NHL for a while but Gio and Hamilton may be better. Heck, we may see a kid like Morison step in and have great chemistry with Gio.

I think they'll all have the chance to be top pairing at some point and I think they'll all be pushed to work as hard as bottom pairing guys and earn the right to more ice time.

[Huntingwhale]

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.358478!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/dangerous-shots-graph.PNG

Brodie's in a category of his own in denying shooting opportunities in the crease. Not a 3rd pairing defenceman.

From this story: http://www.tsn.ca/you-don-t-have-to-be-chara-to-be-an-effective-nhl-defenceman-1.358467

Also: Yikes Wideman.

Man is Wideman underrated around here. 4th in D scoring in the entire league. A plus player. Can easily log 25min+ per game. A solid leader and vet in the locker room. Now people think he's bottom pairing guy who will get 2nd unit pp time. The guy will be a fixture on the top PP unit and will probably see top 4 minutes all season long.

All I see from that chart is that Marc Methot is a good as Gio, Pietrangelo sucks, and Erhoff is a good as Weber. Using my own 2 eye balls, I was able to observe Wideman last season and noticed that his defensive lapses completely overblown. I've yet to see a compilation video of him in Flames uniform coughing up the puck like a lot of people constantly say he does. A lot of the offence is driven by him at ES. His skating, while not Brodie-like, is more then capable of having him ranked as a PMD. Basically, he's everything you'd hope a top 4 D can be.

While it may seem blasphemous to some, I'd have no issue having Hamilton on the bottom pairing, at least to start. Not a knock against him, but he's new to the team, is only 22, and still has room to grow. Just goes to show the depth this team now has on D. Barring that, I think we'll see Russel on the bottom pairing.

Gio - Brodie
Hamilton - Wideman
Engelland/Smid - Russel

or

Gio - Brodie
Russel - Wideman
Engelland/Smid Hamilton

I think once Hamilton is established and familiar with the team systems, he'll bump Russel to the bottom pair. I just don't like seeing Wideman playing on the bottom pair, knowing how well he moves the puck up ice. I also see Russel as being more capable of ''elevating'' players like Smid or Engelland then I do Wideman. Wideman kind of does his own thing, but he's got such great chemistry with the top 6 forwards. Hartley also loves Wideman.

Man is this depth great. When it's all said and done, I don't really think any pairing can be considered ''weak''. Such a fantastic issue for Hartley and his staff to have.

[Coach]

Bouma - Stajan - Ferland
Bennett - Backlund - Jones
Colborne - Shore - Jooris
Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler
Bollig, Raymond

Gio Brodie
Hamilton Wideman
Engelland Russell

Gaudreau Monahan Hudler is now in a forth-line, grinder role. Because I typed it that way.

[johnnybegaudreau]

Posted this on Twitter.
But my gut tells me it will be
Brodano - first pairing.
Engelland - Hamilton - Second Pairing.
Russell - Wideman - get pushed down and are now the third pairing.

The way mgmt keeps talking up Engelland lately they either think he's better than he is or they're trying to attract a trade partner.
Bob doesn't seem to be the type to tinker too much and one things for certain he loves his d-pairs so I think everything stays the same except for Engelland gonna see a few more minutes.

[johnnybegaudreau]

Man is Wideman underrated around here.

You do realize that top right quadrant is "bad" right? like not a good thing at all.
Moreover, everything else you said points to exactly how lucky Wideman was last year probbaly the luckiest on the team.

Thank god He and Russell will be third pairing not 2nd this year.

[foshizzle11]

Ya, I bet we see a lot of Gio and Brodie paired together for most of this season, at points in time we will see Gio with Dougie. Who knows, by the time we are talking next season, Gio and Dougie will be even better than Brodano was last year...

This doesn't seem like a problem for me or for the coaching staff. Our top 6 dmen are good. Any pairing the coaching staff choose will be good. I agree with many above. Keep Gio/Brodie together, split Russell and put Dougie/Wideman together, then Russell/Engelland on the 3rd pairing. Gio/Brodie won't be logging as many minutes as last season because of the Dougie trade, so we will get better overall performance IMO from all of our defenseman.

This just doesn't seem like a problem at all to me. We will be good no matter how the coaches decide to play these guys. We know all these guys are NHLers. Now if one or two go down with injury, then you start to worry about who else is ready for regular NHL time. We don't know that Smid is 100%, so I am worried about that.

[Huntingwhale]

You do realize that top right quadrant is "bad" right? like not a good thing at all.
Moreover, everything else you said points to exactly how lucky Wideman was last year probbaly the luckiest on the team.

Thank god He and Russell will be third pairing not 2nd this year.

I didn't realize hockey was played on quadrants of paper instead of an ice surface. My bad :rolleyes:. Again, I guess Marc Methot is as good as Gio, right? Because the quadrant tells me so.

And how exactly did I what I post point to Wideman being ''lucky''? What does that even mean? He's an offensive Dman and has always been able to put up points, always been able to play big minutes. He has less brain farts then he did playing with Boston. And he moves the puck up ice quickly and has good chemistry with the skilled forwards.

He might not put up the 56pts he did last season, but I'll bet if he stays healthy he'll get pretty close to 50 again. Wideman moving down to the bottom pairing is not a reflection of his play, it's because we have the depth to do so.

[saillias]

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.358478!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/dangerous-shots-graph.PNG

Brodie's in a category of his own in denying shooting opportunities in the crease. Not a 3rd pairing defenceman.

From this story: http://www.tsn.ca/you-don-t-have-to-be-chara-to-be-an-effective-nhl-defenceman-1.358467

Also: Yikes Wideman.

Ahhh Suddenly Craig Button's World Cup defense makes a lot more sense. The official position of TSN is that Pietrangelo isn't good. If Button disregarded the information Yost is putting out there in articles like the one above and this one: http://www.tsn.ca/a-closer-look-at-high-priced-nhl-defencemen-1.344997 Yost loses credibility.

[GranteedEV]

Also: Yikes Wideman.

No kidding.

[GranteedEV]

Again, I guess Marc Methot is as good as Gio, right? Because the quadrant tells me so.

At DEFENSE? Methot is one of the best defensive defenseman in the NHL and makes Erik Karlsson a Norris winner. You don't need charts to see that.

That is a chart outline defensive aptitude, not offensive aptitude.

[CliffFletcher]

Man is Wideman underrated around here... The guy will be a fixture on the top PP unit...

So which of Gio or Hamilton do you expect to not be on the top PP unit?

[Huntingwhale]

At DEFENSE? Methot is one of the best defensive defenseman in the NHL and makes Erik Karlsson a Norris winner. You don't need charts to see that.

That is a chart outline defensive aptitude, not offensive aptitude.

Karlsson won the Norris because he scores 70+ pts as a defender. Not to take anything away from Methot, but everyone knows total points in the biggest slice of the pie when it comes to determining who wins the Norris.

I didn't see the title on that chart showing it was only relating to defensive aptitude, so my bad on that. But now that I look at it again, I still don't buy it. According to that, Mike Green is a better defensively then Chara? BS. Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. Is that what I'm seeing? Common. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so maybe it needs to be explained to me what exactly I'm seeing.

So which of Gio or Hamilton do you expect to not be on the top PP unit?

I have no idea. I could see Hamilton going to the 2nd unit. If memory serves me correctly, Gio and Wideman were together quite a bit before Gio went down on the 1st unit. All I know is that Dennis Wideman was tied for 3rd overall in power play points leader in the entire NHL as a defenceman. He can legit QB a PP and has one of the hardest shots in the NHL. I don't see why there is such a calling for him to move to the 2nd unit. Maybe Hartley sees things differently. But IMO he is very well used on the 1st unit.

[GranteedEV]

According to that, Mike Green is a better defensively then Chara? BS. Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. Is that what I'm seeing? Common. I'm not an advanced stat guy, so maybe it needs to be explained to me what exactly I'm seeing.

First of all, That includes Chara last season, who was playing on one knee. I'm sure if you used a 2011-2013 Sample Chara would be better. Regardless it tells you that Chara is one of the best players in the NHL at limiting the highest quality types of shots. He might not be as far out as Mike Green, but he's also facing better top line players which is something that's not on that chart but can be observed by looking at supplementary stats or just watching the game. Mike Green is a middle pairing defenseman who's very strong in that role. Dennis Wideman is a middle pairing defenseman who is not so great in that role. Trading Dennis Wideman for Mike Green would be a no-brainer. Trading a 38 year old Chara for a prime Mike Green would probably be a smart trade, too.

Second, those are cold hard statistics for shots against in the slot and in the crease. If they disagree with your beliefs, there's nothing I or anyone can do about it. But you see they DO tell you Giordano/Brodie are two of the best players in the NHL at limiting high quality shots on goal. Does that also disagree with your beliefs? Look up cognitive bias.

[Huntingwhale]

First of all, That includes Chara last season, who was playing on one knee. I'm sure if you used a 2011-2013 Sample Chara would be better. Regardless it tells you that Chara is one of the best players in the NHL at limiting the highest quality types of shots. He might not be as far out as Mike Green, but he's also facing better top line players which is something that's not on that chart but can be observed by looking at supplementary stats or just watching the game. Mike Green is a middle pairing defenseman who's very strong in that role. Dennis Wideman is a middle pairing defenseman who is not so great in that role. Trading Dennis Wideman for Mike Green would be a no-brainer.

Nope, no way I'm trading Wideman for Green. And I know that by watching the games. You'd be hard pressed to find a Flames fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart. Wideman's offence that he brings and his role as a PPQB more the makes up for his deficiencies defensively.

Second, those are cold hard statistics for shots against in the slot and in the crease. If they disagree with your beliefs, there's nothing I or anyone can do about it. But you see they DO tell you Giordano/Brodie are two of the best players in the NHL at limiting high quality shots on goal. Does that also disagree with your beliefs? Look up cognitive bias.

So going by your description, it also tells me that Pietrangelo is terrible at limiting high quality shots on goal. Worse then Phaneuf. Is that true also? Is that a cold hard fact?

I'll wait until the season starts and watch with my own two eyeballs to determine how effective a player like Dennis Wideman is/isn't on the PP, which was my whole argument to begin with. I've gone too far into this advanced stats debate and trapped myself in an endless cycle.

[GranteedEV]

Nope, no way I'm trading Wideman for Green. And I know that by watching the games.

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?

You'd be hard pressed to find a Flames fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart. Wideman's offence that he brings and his role as a PPQB more the makes up for his deficiencies defensively.

I'm a Flames fan who would agree to that trade. You'd be more hard pressed to find a Red Wings fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart.

There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.

So going by your description, it also tells me that Pietrangelo is terrible at limiting high quality shots on goal. Worse then Phaneuf. Is that true also? Is that a cold hard fact?

How many of the last 212 Blues games and the last 212 Leafs games did you watch?

[hockey.modern]

Are the last two guys to the right Engelland and Smid?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/14/c55f4348bd1dd9ccd5f1d4f64263067b.jpg

[ricardodw]

Hamilton is pretty close to Brodie's level right now...except he's a few years younger*. That tells you a lot about where he'll project to be. Brodie's effectiveness comes from his skating ability allowing him to join the rush as an extra forward and still get back to defend, and setting up plays with great passes. Dougie has a bigger frame and can do it all. By Brodie's age he'll probably be pumping out similar points to Wideman's last season or better, while doing things right in his own zone.

He is every bit as good as Bouwmeester was after he signed a Flame contract and before he hit the ice.

I have high hopes for Hamilton but he is not at all close to being as good as Brodie 2014-15....

If The Bruins had Brodie and the Flames Hamilton last year the Bruins would be in the Playoffs and the Flames would have been golfing early.


The Bruins were able to trade Hamilton for draft picks.... After working with him for 4 years they decided he was not the a top-2 D-man that they were going to base their franchise on.

There was no way that the Flames would consider trading Brodie for the same sort of package or for Hamilton even up.

Hamilton 2014-15 is very comparable to Russell 2014-15.

[Huntingwhale]

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?



I'm a Flames fan who would agree to that trade. You'd be more hard pressed to find a Red Wings fan who would agree to that trade, chart or no chart.

There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.



How many of the last 212 Blues games and the last 212 Leafs games did you watch?

You've lost me bro. You presented that chart as cold hard stats. I was asking why then was Pietrangelo, one of the premier D's in the league, alongside Phaneuf. Not sure what that has to do with watching both those teams play.

You prefer Green. I prefer Wideman. Neither have anything to do with this thread. So we'll just agree to disagree.

[ricardodw]

You watched as many Capitals games in the last three seasons as you did Flames games?





There is like, no argument for Wideman > Mike Green, other than "Wideman had 11 more points last season playing 595 more minutes". And the last time Mike Green played 1900+ minutes he had 20 more points than Wideman's career high season on a team that had 121 points in the regular season.


There is the simple fact that Wideman carried his team into the Playoffs over the last part of the season and was on the #1 defense pair in the playoffs ... playing 26.5 minutes a game where Green was the #5/6 pairing with Washington getting 2 minutes a game less than Engelland.

Green topped out at 18:57 in a 70 minute game against the Rangers.

[GranteedEV]

You've lost me bro. You presented that chart as cold hard stats. I was asking why then was Pietrangelo, one of the premier D's in the league, alongside Phaneuf. Not sure what that has to do with watching both those teams play.

Because maybe Pietrangelo isn't as "premier" as you/we think he is? I don't watch as many Blues or Leafs games I watch Flames games to be an expert on their players. When we play them, their team play is definitely tough to score on, but how much of that is Pietrangelo and how much of it is the forwards or the matchup? The stat illuminates something that's been happening on the ice. Why would you just brush it off and say "no, that never happened" when that's all the facts are saying. Does everything need context? Maybe, but sometimes stats can tell things that completely disagree with what "we believe". That's what cognitive bias is.

[FlameZilla]

If Brodie, a top pairing defenseman, is playing on the 3rd pairing in Calgary this season it means we truly have elite-level defence.

I tend to agree with the D pairings that were posted in the TSN article. I've said it before, but why not play Russell-Wideman and Brodie-Engelland equally? Gior-Hamo can hog tonnes of ice time and neither of the secondary pairings would need to be sheltered. It's a good problem to have.

Smid's return changes the dynamic as well, with another veteran LH shot to throw in the mix. Hamilton lined up with Smid today FWIW.

Also, why not line Brodie up with Hamilton? As the two youngest players in the D corps with the most potential why not let them forge a time-testing tandem right from the start? Giordano can work his way back from injury and shelter Engelland or whoever else needs sheltering.

There are plenty of options and I expect Hartley to mix it up a lot in camp to see what works best.

[Huntingwhale]

Because maybe Pietrangelo isn't as "premier" as you/we think he is? I don't watch as many Blues or Leafs games I watch Flames games to be an expert on their players. When we play them, their team play is definitely tough to score on, but how much of that is Pietrangelo and how much of it is the forwards or the matchup? The stat illuminates something that's been happening on the ice. Why would you just brush it off and say "no, that never happened" when that's all the facts are saying. Does everything need context? Maybe, but sometimes stats can tell things that completely disagree with what "we believe". That's what cognitive bias is.

Ok, well then I guess Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. That's that. The stats don't lie.

TIL

[Da_Chief]

http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.358478!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/default/dangerous-shots-graph.PNG

Brodie's in a category of his own in denying shooting opportunities in the crease. Not a 3rd pairing defenceman.

From this story: http://www.tsn.ca/you-don-t-have-to-be-chara-to-be-an-effective-nhl-defenceman-1.358467

Also: Yikes Wideman.

This whole discussion is useless. We will see Gio, Brodie, Hamilton avg around 23-25 minutes, Russell and Wideman will get around 19 mins and whoever plays as the 6th dman get the rest. Hartley has already said this isn't peewee hockey where we to evenly distribute the time, the best guys will play a lot.

Now on to this ridiculous chart.

How are these even measured? I will take several guys in that top right hand corner and easily throw away several guys from bottom left.

Guys in the top right that are top defenders: Beachumin, Klein, Carlson, Barrie, DeKeyser, Fowler, Lindholm, Seabrook, Scandella, Hamhuis, Jones, McDonagh, Stone, Kronwall, Yandle, Pietrangelo, Faulk.

Guys in the bottom left that blow: Lovejoy, Fayne, Benn, Demers, Schultz, Boyle, Cole, Ellis, Hainsey, Benoit, Gardiner, Smith, Green.

That's like 50% from each group. No one should pay attention to whatever garbage measurement was used to create this chart.

[Dr. Doom]

I have a lot of friends asking me what's happening with the pairings for fantasy purposes... one guy in my keeper league just dropped Wideman even (which I think was a terrible move)...

I'm no expert and none of us here are the final say in the matter but I mean you just don't break up what works. It's common sense. Gio/Brodie has worked just as well as Wideman/Russell. Though the latter is more susceptible to change.

What you will find happening is DH spending some time here and there with Gio on the PP no doubt (and even w/ Brodie I bet) and he'll push Russell into the sheer defensive minutes a bit more where he belongs as well, meaning by the end of the season he'll likely be paired with Wideman full time - that is if Wideman isn't dealt by then.

I really don't see much coming in the way of Gio-Brodie however, lots of articles about on the subject that the Flames would be wise to mold him after Gio in fact and the best way to do that is continuing to do what they are doing.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Ok, well then I guess Pietrangelo is worse defensively then Phaneuf. That's that. The stats don't lie.

TIL

He's barely a top 4 guy apparently :rolleyes:

If he gets any worse should we expect the Blues to buy him out in the offseason? That's a huge amount of coin to be worse than Phaneuf.

[saillias]

Are the last two guys to the right Engelland and Smid?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/14/c55f4348bd1dd9ccd5f1d4f64263067b.jpg

Yup. What's this picture from?

[SeanCharles]

If Brodie, a top pairing defenseman, is playing on the 3rd pairing in Calgary this season it means we truly have elite-level defence.

I tend to agree with the D pairings that were posted in the TSN article. I've said it before, but why not play Russell-Wideman and Brodie-Engelland equally? Gior-Hamo can hog tonnes of ice time and neither of the secondary pairings would need to be sheltered. It's a good problem to have.

Smid's return changes the dynamic as well, with another veteran LH shot to throw in the mix. Hamilton lined up with Smid today FWIW.

Also, why not line Brodie up with Hamilton? As the two youngest players in the D corps with the most potential why not let them forge a time-testing tandem right from the start? Giordano can work his way back from injury and shelter Engelland or whoever else needs sheltering.

There are plenty of options and I expect Hartley to mix it up a lot in camp to see what works best.

I never really considered this until I read your post but when you think about it, it makes some sense. Keep the established pairing together and play Hamilton with Smid.

On a couple of occasions when I've heard Hartley or Treliving acknowledge the D core the 6 names they mention always include Smid.

Gio-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Russell-Wideman

PP: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman
PK: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Russell, Smid

[hockey.modern]

Yup. What's this picture from?


CowboysCalgary Instagram. I think they were having lunch with the flames players and doing a q&a

[getbak]

It looks like a meeting of the old white guys club.

[Fire]

I never really considered this until I read your post but when you think about it, it makes some sense. Keep the established pairing together and play Hamilton with Smid.

On a couple of occasions when I've heard Hartley or Treliving acknowledge the D core the 6 names they mention always include Smid.

Gio-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Russell-Wideman

PP: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman
PK: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Russell, Smid

Smid and Hamilton will never happen unless we see an injury to Giordano or Brodie. I can't see Hartley playing Hamilton with anyone but those two, maybe Russell if they move Wideman to the 3rd pairing. Also Smid might not be ready to start the season.

[SeanCharles]

Smid and Hamilton will never happen unless we see an injury to Giordano or Brodie. I can't see Hartley playing Hamilton with anyone but those two, maybe Russell if they move Wideman to the 3rd pairing. Also Smid might not be ready to start the season.

I just wouldn't be surprised is all I'm saying. I think Smid is higher on the depth chart than Engelland and if fully healthy would play ahead of him. You prob want to separate Smid and Wideman and I also like the idea of keeping Gio and Brodie together so it makes me think it could end up that way.

What I would love to see in a perfect world where it was earned:

Gio-Brodie
Russell-Hamilton
Wotherspoon-Wideman

[CroFlames]

I never really considered this until I read your post but when you think about it, it makes some sense. Keep the established pairing together and play Hamilton with Smid.

On a couple of occasions when I've heard Hartley or Treliving acknowledge the D core the 6 names they mention always include Smid.

Gio-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Russell-Wideman

PP: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Wideman
PK: Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Russell, Smid

I'll bet you internet points that Engelland plays over Smid. My guy tells me Smid will be traded in relatively short order.

[Street Pharmacist]

I'll bet you internet points that Engelland plays over Smid. My guy tells me Smid will be traded in relatively short order.
I think that's indigestion. Who's paying to have a very expensive just-returned-from-chronic-injury 6th defenseman?


Edit: it was funnier when I read guy as gut

[FBI]

I just have this feeling that the Hamilton signing has pretty much ended Wotherspoon's chances with the Flames organization. There is too much competition for the #6 spot and even if he wows us at camp (hopefully), the next few years have way more dynamic guys coming down the pipeline..

Wotherspoon + Granlund for something half decent.

[Iceman90]

No. Nor is Bennett a 4th line Centre. Whoever made these projections should be fired.