Flames vs Avs vs Leafs

[GreenLantern2814]

This argument gets brought up a lot by naysayers, that the Flames will suffer the same fate as the Avalanche or Maple Leafs. My contention has always been that if you look at the D and centre depth of each team from one year to the next, it becomes readily apparent why each team failed to take a step forward the next year.

Let the peer review begin.


Toronto:

2012-13

Defense

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Gardiner-Franson
Komisarek-JML
Kostka-O'Byrne
Fraser-Holzer

Centre
Bozak
Grabovski
Kadri
McClement
Steckel
Komarov
Colborne

2013-14

Defense

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Reilly-Gardiner
Ranger-Franson
Gleason-Granberg
JML-Fraser (Both traded in season)

Centres

Bozak
Bolland
Kadri
McClement
McKegg
Smithson
Smith
Holland

Toronto had a bad defense and poor centre depth the year they made the playoffs. If they have to play 82 games, that group doesn't get into the playoffs. As evidenced by them never getting into the playoffs when they have to play 82 games. So what did they do to address the centre ice position and D the next year? They overpay for a half year of David Bolland, a #3C at best, and add a rookie Morgan Reilly to go along with Paul Ranger, who hadn't played hockey in years. Leafs = paper tiger.

Colorado

2013-14

Defense

Johnson-Hejda
Barrie-Benoit
Sarich-Holden
Guenin

Centres

Duchene
ROR
Stastny
MacKinnon
Mitchell
Talbot
Cliche

2014-15

Defense

Johnson-Hejda (EJ injured for more than half the year)
Holden-Guenin
Barrie-Stuart
Redmond-

Centres

Duchene
ROR
MacKinnon
Briere
Cliche
Mitchell
Talbot/Hamilton

Colorado's Achilles heel was defensive depth, and it was never more prevalent then when Matt Cooke Matt Cooke'd Tyson Barrie's knee. They had one defense pair after that, and were bounced from the playoffs soon after. Their centre depth even with the loss of Stastny would have been the envy of the league. I know ROR and MacKinnon play wing all the time, but the fact remains you could throw all three of them in the middle and be fine. Colorado is an extremely talented and exciting team, but they need help on the back end. Getting Zadorov this offseason is the sort of move they should be making, but I'd say they need another stud on the back end before they're legit playoff team. Injuries also derailed their season hard - Erik Johnson only played 47 games, and they didn't get a full year out of MacKinnon either. Don't sleep on the Avs, they're close.

Calgary

2014-15

Giordano-Brodie
Russell-Wideman
Engelland-Schlemko
Diaz-Smid
Wotherspoon

Centres

Monahan
Backlund
Stajan
Granlund
Colborne
Jooris
Shore

2015-16 *Projected

Defense
Giordano-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russell-Engelland
Morrisson-Wotherspoon

Centres
Monahan
Backlund
Bennett
Stajan
Granlund
Colborne
Shore
Jooris
Arnold (assuming he'll see some time this year)

The Flames' centre depth took a while to take shape last year. Backlund was injured for a few months, Monahan was spent the first half of the year with a really defense first mindset, and only broke out offensively once Colborne and Jones were swapped with Gaudreau and Hudler. Granlund Jooris and Stajan swung all up and down the lineup, but en masse, you see just how young the Flames centres are. Which bodes well going forward.

The duo of Brodie and Giordano were talked about as the best pairing in hockey for a stretch.

When Gio went down, Kris Russell and Dennis Wideman elevated their games and played absolutely out of their minds. Those saying Dennis Wideman won't score fifty points again: he probably won't. He won't have all of Giordano's PP time do it with. Instead, Giordano will get it. Which leaves the Flames better off.

Brodie played almost thirty minutes a night while dragging Deryk Engelland around. He got no PP time. He's a stud.

The Hamilton acquisition speaks for itself. The Flames have three top pairing defensemen, and arguably three #1s. All locked up for a combined $17M until the 2020s.

Centre depth for the Flames adds Bennett and otherwise remains constant, but that's a pretty good add. Not sure how he'll do over 82 games, but he doesn't hurt.

So in terms of the two things you really need for a contending team, centre depth and defensive depth, the Flames going forward are better designed than either Colorado or Toronto was following their upstart year.

TL;DR: The Flames are better built than the Avs or Leafs.

[bax]

Did this come from HF?

[Gaskal]

Did this come from HF?
Or from Flames from 80 feet

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2015/08/leafs-avs-flames-when-talking.html

[nik-]

We may regress next year, but it's not because the Avs and Leafs did.

[GreenLantern2814]

Did this come from HF?

Yes, I wrote it last night. I care more about what this site thinks.

[DoubleF]

We may regress for 2 reasons IMO.

Goalies completely crap the bed and go all AHL on us. Mostly unlikely, except for the possibility of the next reason.

Injuries. It's crazy to think that we held tight last year even with major injuries to many key cogs at the beginning and end of the season. But if we fall, I think we fall to this.

If we fall, it's not for the same reasons as Avs and Leafs IMO.

No hot goalie, and no theoretical downgrade of our roster are at least the main ones.

[theslymonkey]

Great assessment.

I agree with everything you said about the Leafs, and the Avs analysis is good. But to say that the Flames are better built isn't totally correct in my books.

The Flames are built on Defense while the Avs are built on offense.

Both teams have defensively responsible top 6 forwards. But for today, the Avs forward depth is better.

Do I think the Flames will suffer the same fate? No.

The reason why is that I have always believed that the D drives the game. That's why the Preds are continually competitive. Their D is elite and make the forwards that much better (eg Ribeiro..)

I think the Flames also get the added benefit of playing in a very weak Pacific. If the Avs were in our division they would have had a great chance of making the playoffs at the Flames expense.

Going forward I think this will be a interesting comparison to watch. I think the Flames are better built for long term success, but the Avs have a deadly team. Just imagine if they had Hamilton instead of us... Changes a lot.

Regardless, very good assessment.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

We're built nothing like those two teams but people still think we're going to regress because of poor possession stats *YAWN*. This is mostly jealous Oiler/Canuck fans as far as I can tell, but the endless parroting is still annoying. There's a "Are the Flames for real?" thread on HF and suprise, suprise, a bunch of goofs with Mc in front of their name think we're going to regress despite roster upgrades and expected internal growth. Last year's Corsi stats are apparently the be all to end all, and nothing that has happened since or likely will happen matters to the face of that infallible crystal ball.

We added Hamilton and Frolik, as well as Giordano, to the team that finished the season. All three have great possession stats. Add in Bennett along with more internal growth among other players. Brodie, Poirier, Ferland, Ortio, Colborne, Granlund, Shore, Wotherspoon primarily are players I see improving to some degree if everything goes right. Monahan, Gaudreau may have even more to offer as well but to expect it would be foolish as they are both several years from their prime and some peaks and valleys should be expected. Even if Hudler, Bouma, Wideman and Russell regress to an extent (bank on it), I think the other factors I mentioned will cover that up and then some. Ramo and Hiller aren't great but if we made it with them last year, we can do so again since the rest of the team is demonstrably better. Sure they're not Varlamov or even Bernier, but that's okay because our defense is SO much better than the Leafs or the Avs... almost like the difference between an average AHL defense compared to an average NHL defense... it's laughable really that anyone still compares us to them. I think if you put Ramo or Hiller on Toronto or Colorado last year, they put up stats closer to a Joey MacDonald-level than what they did last year.

I would've said we had a 50/50 shot at best to make the playoffs before the Hamilton trade. The regression crowd had a bit of a case then but it was still mindless/hopeful parroting for the most part as far as I'm concerned. They basically said we were a fluke and WILL regress... it was just asinine. However, now with the additions of Hamilton and Frolik as well as factoring in internal growth I think you would basically be stupid to bet against this team. They aren't a lock, no team truly is, but I would give them an 80-90% of making it, this is a good team.

[Finger Cookin]

The Flames will do better than the Avs and Leafs because this is a Flames forum.

Smid needs to factor into your defense assessment. He's not #9 on the depth chart, and he'll be healthy enough to play.

[GranteedEV]

I made this thread a few months back, my arguments are in there:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=145073

[GreenLantern]

I think the Flames will regress slightly in their 3rd period come backs, that doesn't seem realistic to repeat. As far as overall performance though I think they will actually take a step forward which should help make up at least a portion of the difference.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I think the Flames will regress slightly in their 3rd period come backs, that doesn't seem realistic to repeat. As far as overall performance though I think they will actually take a step forward which should help make up at least a portion of the difference.

They won't need to, because they will be in the driver seat more often this year. They wont have 10+ 3rd period comebacks because there will be less opportunities to do that, as we will be leading going into the third far more often next year IMO. The Hamilton trade was so huge, it can't be understated, it completely changed the depth and complexion of the team. Russell or Wideman will be our 5th defenseman while the other gets to play with Gio, Brodie or Hamilton. For a team that engages with it D and drives it's offense through the back end, this is huge. Hartley is not going to have to worry about match ups nearly as much because the top 4 is so ironclad.

This is a 95-105 point team for the next few years, the rest of the league is just going to have to deal with that. The only question is when we take the next step to cup contender status. With how fast BT expedited phase one of the rebuild, I am confident we will take that next step sooner rather than later.

[Huntingwhale]

If the Flames didn't acquire guys like Hamilton or Frolik, I would expect them to regress. In fact I stated before that even though the Flames made round 2, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them take a small step back. Then Treliving put his wizard hat on and got Hamilton for beans and Frolik for under 5mil. My view has now changed.

The biggest argument is that the Flames do not repeat last season because they had poor possession numbers and teams that have poor numbers (like TO and CO did the season after) don't make the playoffs again. Well unlike the Leafs or Colorado, the Flames went out and addressed those problems. Hamilton and Frolik are supposedly both great possession guys so that should counterbalance that argument.

[CaptainCrunch]

Toronto had their success in a shortened season where a hot start is massive, if that team had played in an 82 game season there would have been a pretty good chance that they would have fallen because their goalies would have died from exhaustion.

Colorado got all world goaltending in their hot year and they lost Stastny which was a big loss, and their goaltending slumped to human norms.

Calgary has better personal then last year, they got what I would call average goaltending and still won last year.

The scenario's aren't comparable.

The Calgary vs Avs vs Leafs flames argument is a flawed argument for putting you're eggs in the advanced Stats basket without understanding personal or watching teams play.

Hey the Flames could regress this year, they could suffer a ton of injuries, but the comparable aren't the same. I hope the Flames finish higher then last year so the advanced Stats arrogance takes a hit.

[Geeoff]

People like to point to the Avs as an example of "unsustainable" advanced stats but I think the Avs roster got worse between 13/14 and 14/15. Also, they were a really good team down the stretch. The west is a shark tank where even a team like LA can miss the playoffs. The Leafs are closer to the pre-Monahan Flames than the current bunch.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I think the Flames will regress slightly in their 3rd period come backs, that doesn't seem realistic to repeat. As far as overall performance though I think they will actually take a step forward which should help make up at least a portion of the difference.
The biggest reason for the 3rd period comebacks was conditioning. The flames are the most well conditioned team in the nhl. When other teams start slowing down they are able to take advantage. I don't think all those comebacks were flukes.

[Oil Stain]

The biggest reason for the 3rd period comebacks was conditioning. The flames are the most well conditioned team in the nhl. When other teams start slowing down they are able to take advantage. I don't think all those comebacks were flukes.

I find that pretty hard to believe. Pro athletes take the game very seriously these days and I bet 95% of NHL hockey players are in top physical condition year round.

I think if you compare fitness numbers from team to team, they are pretty even throughout the league.

The Flames were crazy high in their shooting percentages last year. I think their additions will help but I still am expecting them to slide back from where they finished last year.

[Vulcan]

I probably agree that all teams take conditioning seriously and all teams are in good condition but Hartley is known for running the toughest practices in the NHL and it isn't just conditioning but also his work ethic he's instilled in the team.

[Strange Brew]

I suspect Flames will regress in terms of shooting percentage but I am very hopeful that improved shot differential and possession will more than make up for it.

We'll probably have fewer comebacks but more 3rd period leads.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I suspect Flames will regress in terms of shooting percentage but I am very hopeful that improved shot differential and possession will more than make up for it.

We'll probably have fewer comebacks but more 3rd period leads.

Maybe not. Flames play a different (or same but slightly ahead of the pack in ways) and complete game. Activated D is a key piece of the overall game.

Corsi is based on volume of shots and not critical decision making.

Is high shooting percentage an anomaly or a product of the emphasis on hockey IQ? Incidentally, this change started under Feaster

[GoJetsGo]

I find that pretty hard to believe. Pro athletes take the game very seriously these days and I bet 95% of NHL hockey players are in top physical condition year round.

I think if you compare fitness numbers from team to team, they are pretty even throughout the league.

The Flames were crazy high in their shooting percentages last year. I think their additions will help but I still am expecting them to slide back from where they finished last year.


Shocker.

There has been much talk about the torrid pace at which Hartley conducts Flames practices, and many opposing coaches and manager's who spoken about their work ethic.

Considering the lazy hockey you've been watching for the last few years, I can really see why you'd find it a foreign concept.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Maybe not. Flames play a different (or same but slightly ahead of the pack in ways) and complete game. Activated D is a key piece of the overall game.

Corsi is based on volume of shots and not critical decision making.

Is high shooting percentage an anomaly or a product of the emphasis on hockey IQ? Incidentally, this change started under Feaster

The change started under Sutter, according to Todd Button. Started in 2008 to be precise.

[Dajazz]

The main difference is that Calgary looked at the potential holes in their game and team and filled them. Poor puck possession team, get Hamilton & Frolik.

Leafs and Avs did practically nothing adress their potential weaknesses.

That is the main difference.

[edslunch]

I think the Corsi issue is overstated based on the style of game the Flames play but I still think they overachieved last year. With the summer moves I think they end up in about the same place as last year but in more of a 'never in doubt' kind of way.

[Wolfman]

With the addition of Hamilton to the D core and Frolik up front I think the course is set to be the same or even rise. I have a feeling that Ramo is going to have a really good year between the pipes and that Hiller will be moved before the deadline.

[SuperMatt18]

Shocker.

There has been much talk about the torrid pace at which Hartley conducts Flames practices, and many opposing coaches and manager's who spoken about their work ethic.

Considering the lazy hockey you've been watching for the last few years, I can really see why you'd find it a foreign concept.

Not to mention that pretty much every player that has left to Oilers (to any other team) has mentioned hard much harder those other teams practice. Smid, Petry, Dubnyk, Gagner, all made mention of this after moving to other teams.

In terms of shooting percentage there are some players that have a higher percentage due to their style of play, picking the right shot, and making that extra pass. Hudler fits this bill as he has a high career shooting percentage, Monahan has done it in both his career seasons, and Gaudreau is the type of guy that will always have a higher shooting percentage.

Really the only guys who I think will have a shooting percentage that is sure to regress are Bouma and Jooris. Other guys are around career averages, or play with styles that lead to a higher shooting percentage.

The other thing with shooting percentage is that this is already a trend for the Flames. 9.9%, 9.2%, and 10.5% the last three seasons and always in the top third of the league (aka all three years playing under Hartley). So maybe their style of play does attest to having a slightly higher than average shooting percentage.

The real risk for the Flames was the comebacks. They gained a lot of points in the fashion of a miraculous comeback, and really that isn't a sustainable trend in the NHL. The real improvements they need to make are in having better starts and not getting behind in games. The fitness in the third helped attribute to those comebacks, but in the end teams will start to find a way to lock down a lead.

[Coach]

I find that pretty hard to believe. Pro athletes take the game very seriously these days and I bet 95% of NHL hockey players are in top physical condition year round.

I think if you compare fitness numbers from team to team, they are pretty even throughout the league.

The Flames were crazy high in their shooting percentages last year. I think their additions will help but I still am expecting them to slide back from where they finished last year.

There's a difference between fitness levels as measured by testing, and being in game shape as a unit. The fitness levels are gained in the off season with training regimens that, as you said, almost all NHLers will take part of. But the game shape is gained in practices, and those differ from team-to-team.

[spuzzum]

Both Boston and LA missed the playoffs. Both have a franchise goalie, center and dman.

Hockey is a sport. Calgary may regress or win the cup. If we knew what would happen, why watch?

I think we fight for a playoff spot. Still very young and we dont have a Kipper

[GioforPM]

Not to mention that pretty much every player that has left to Oilers (to any other team) has mentioned hard much harder those other teams practice. Smid, Petry, Dubnyk, Gagner, all made mention of this after moving to other teams.



And Glencross intimated that the Caps practices were way easier (he said more fun or something like that). I don't see Trotz as being a particularly soft coach so Hartley must be a real taskmaster.

[GreenLantern2814]

Both Boston and LA missed the playoffs. Both have a franchise goalie, center and dman.

Hockey is a sport. Calgary may regress or win the cup. If we knew what would happen, why watch?

I think we fight for a playoff spot. Still very young and we dont have a Kipper

This group has demonstrated they play better as a team than any Kipper lead group post 05-06.

[Vinny01]

The year after those teams all made the playoffs they each made a big splash in free agency with a winger. Toronto signed the horrible Clarkson deal which speaks for itself. The Avs signed a 37 year old Jarone Iginla who had a pretty good year last year. Flames add Frolik who appears to be a great fit on paper.

All 3 teams had young players they hope would improve to get past the poor advanced stats. Toronto made it in a shortened year and possibly would not have made the playoffs if the season was 82 games. The Avs were still a 90pt team but also were division winners when they made it. Flames squeaked in as the 16th placed team but avoided a wildcard spot and were able to face an easy first round opponent.

2 things that Calgary will have next year that I think puts them above the Avs and Leafs in their poor fall back years are Hamilton and Bennett. Neither the Leafs or Avs added a player that is the calibre of Dougie Hamilton the offseason after their fluke year. Hamilton was the exact player Calgary was missing last year. Also neither the Leafs or Avs had a prospect like Sam Bennett who was ready to step in as a top 6 forward with a dynamic skill set.

[cannon7]

I'm concerned as to whether or not Gio will be 100% this season, given his injury. That's probably the biggest question mark as to whether or not the Flames will regress in my mind. A healthy Gio makes the biggest impact on this team. After that, we need secondary scoring depth as the rest of the league will be looking to shutdown the Monahan line. So hoping for big things from Bennett, Frolik, etc.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I find that pretty hard to believe. Pro athletes take the game very seriously these days and I bet 95% of NHL hockey players are in top physical condition year round.

I think if you compare fitness numbers from team to team, they are pretty even throughout the league.

The Flames were crazy high in their shooting percentages last year. I think their additions will help but I still am expecting them to slide back from where they finished last year.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=757822

Now please crawl back into that rancid hole you came out of.

[Weitz]

A big change this year is I think teams will push the Flames even when they are winning. I think a lot of the struggles the Flames had last year was when teams pushed hard up the ice and fore checked.

I don't think anyone will be taking the Flames lightly this year after last year.

[CroFlames]

I'm concerned as to whether or not Gio will be 100% this season, given his injury. That's probably the biggest question mark as to whether or not the Flames will regress in my mind. A healthy Gio makes the biggest impact on this team. After that, we need secondary scoring depth as the rest of the league will be looking to shutdown the Monahan line. So hoping for big things from Bennett, Frolik, etc.

From all sources, the bicep will be 100%.

The Flames did pretty darn good without Gio for 25 games. So I don't think the team relies on him as much as some think.

[Badgers Nose]

Hard to say what would've happened if the Flames stayed pat, but they have bolstered the defense with a very good addition in Hamilton and Frolik who is an excellent 2-way forward.

IMO they will produce more offense next season as top line youngsters mature, and Bennett pushes a less productive forward down the depth chart.

Defense will be better.

And goal tending was not a problem last year. It could be improved a bit, but with better players in front of the goalies the results should be better even if the goalie talent stays the same.

[Oil Stain]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=757822

Now please crawl back into that rancid hole you came out of.

xSVqLHghLpw


The trainer in the article you site was with the LA Kings during both of their cup wins.

Kings goals by period in that time period:
2012 P1-54 P2-73 P3-58
2013 P1-34 P2-52 P3-44
2014 P1-66 P2-55 P3-73

After Van Asten left:
2015 P1-65 P2-70 P3-82

The LA Kings actually had their best season in terms of third period goals after Van Asten left.

Look at some other teams that stayed very constant in terms of core, and coach over the last four seasons.
Boston
2012 P3- 108 goals (1st in league)
2013 P3- 39 (19th in league)
2014 P3- 104 (1st in league)
2015 P3- 56 (28th in league)

Detroit
2012 P3- 85 (5th)
2013 P3- 43 (16th)
2014 P3- 72 (18th)
2015 P3- 81 (14th)


Goal scoring in the third period doesn't really look like a repeatable skill.
It mostly jumps all over even when a lot of the other variables around a team remain the same.

So I'm not saying that the Flames weren't in great shape, and didn't have hard practices. It's just unlikely that they were in so much better shape than every other team that that would translate into a distinct advantage on the ice.

[GoJetsGo]

So I'm not saying that the Flames weren't in great shape, and didn't have hard practices. It's just unlikely that they were in so much better shape than every other team that that would translate into a distinct advantage on the ice.

I really don't think anyone here is bothered with the fact you don't think that.

It's been noted the pace at which they conduct practices, and opposing teams' management and coaching staffs have pointed out how hard they work.

To brass tax it, you're someone who comes here with a deep underlaying need to lash out because of how insecure you are about having watched such terrible Oiler hockey for so long that you feel compelled to criticize anything Calgary related.

This is really a strange area to do that in.

Calgary's worth ethic was one of the best in the league the last year, and no matter what happens, it's not going to be a sudden issue.

I'd move on and try to grasp at another straw if I were you, because picking at the Flames overall work ethic and trying to (laughably) use advance stats to downplay the strength and conditioning coach is really on the verge of being sad.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Well done spending 45 minutes trying to prove an NHL article wrong Oil Stain. That is quite the joke of a rebuttal, but I'd expect nothing less from a pathetic Oiler fan.

[Coach]

So I'm not saying that the Flames weren't in great shape, and didn't have hard practices. It's just unlikely that they were in so much better shape than every other team that that would translate into a distinct advantage on the ice.

Effort is really the only thing you can control in the game. How long you can sustain a hard effort has everything to do with conditioning. So yes, if you are a better conditioned team than your opponent, it is a distinct advantage.

[Oil Stain]

Well done spending 45 minutes trying to prove an NHL article wrong Oil Stain. That is quite the joke of a rebuttal, but I'd expect nothing less from a pathetic Oiler fan.

The LA Kings didn't have fantastic third periods under their old fitness coach. The whole article is a joke and you can't build any kind of logical defense of it so you resort to insults.

Carry on.

[GoJetsGo]

The LA Kings didn't have fantastic third periods under their old fitness coach. The whole article is a joke and you can't build any kind of logical defense of it so you resort to insults.

Carry on.

The joke is trying to use advance statistics to quantify the impact of a strength and conditioning coach.

All boils down to Oil Stain be staining. Same ol same ol. :rolleyes:

[Oil Stain]

The joke is trying to use advance statistics to quantify the impact of a strength and conditioning coach.

All boils down to Oil Stain be staining. Same ol same ol. :rolleyes:

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down. :w00t:

It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

[GoJetsGo]

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down. :w00t:

Nope, as usual you're more interested in your insecurity than actually looking at what's being said.

Part of the Flames success last year is that they were one of the hardest working teams in the league. This was widely noted and accepted, but because you cheer for a team that was one of the laziest devoid of any semblance of two-way play or effort, you feel the need to lash out citing that the Flames have no advantage in those areas (because those are really foreign concepts to you at the end of the day).

It's really a simple point, but your agenda in what brings you here has you doing what you always do.



It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

This really sums up what you're all about. Sheer and utter nonsense. The NHL did write about Hartley, and it was pertaining to his "Coach of the Year" caliber season... one in which he instilled one of the best work ethics in the league through high tempo practices and a high emphasis on strength and conditioning.

Don't let facts get in the way of your insecurity induced mud slinging though.

[CroFlames]

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down. :w00t:

It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

So every talking head praises Calgary's fitness level, the players themselves attribute their wins to hard work, and the coach does as well. NHL.com puts out an article reiterating that, and you disagree with said article.

I know I'm smarter than a lot of pundits, but not all of them. You are obviously smarter than all the analysts though.

[Oil Stain]

So every talking head praises Calgary's fitness level, the players themselves attribute their wins to hard work, and the coach does as well. NHL.com puts out an article reiterating that, and you disagree with said article.

I know I'm smarter than a lot of pundits, but not all of them. You are obviously smarter than all the analysts though.

Its not about who is smarter, it's about pundits doing what they get paid to do.

They get paid to sell stories. They aren't going to say that they aren't quite sure about the exact combination of factors that led to the Flames scoring a tonne of goals in the third period because that's not easy to watch TV.

The LA Kings are famous for being one of the hardest working teams in hockey and they missed the playoffs last year.

The Flames hired the Kings strength and conditioning coach last offseason. I think its fair to say that the Kings would have been in the same ball park as the Flames in terms of conditioning so there is obviously way more at play than "conditioning" when talking about third period come backs.

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

[troutman]

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

The Flames were clean and sober. Kings not so much.

[GoJetsGo]

Its not about who is smarter, it's about pundits doing what they get paid to do.

They get paid to sell stories. They aren't going to say that they aren't quite sure about the exact combination of factors that led to the Flames scoring a tonne of goals in the third period because that's not easy to watch TV.

The LA Kings are famous for being one of the hardest working teams in hockey and they missed the playoffs last year.

The Flames hired the Kings strength and conditioning coach last offseason. I think its fair to say that the Kings would have been in the same ball park as the Flames in terms of conditioning so there is obviously way more at play than "conditioning" when talking about third period come backs.

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

As usual, you get called on your BS and you move the goalposts of what's being discussed.

You said you find it hard to believe the Flames are any more well-conditioned than any other team in the league.

This was something widely accepted, and it's been pointed out (whether you'll acknowledge or admit it to yourself or others or not) the reason you don't believe it is because it makes you angry.

There isn't going to be a way to link statistics to how fitness levels translate to wins and losses, but all year long we watched the Flames work consistently from the start of the game to the end. A full sixty minute effort more often than not. Both the coach and players noted that it starts with the tempo at which they practice and translates to full sixty minute efforts that often aren't matched by the other teams.

Whether that can be quantified or calculated is irrelevant. We watched it, and it translated as one of many factors that made up a winning environment.

Once again, things that are foreign concepts to you as an Oilers fan, and an underlaying reason why this topic annoys you.

[CroFlames]

As usual, you get called on your BS and you move the goalposts of what's being discussed.

You said you find it hard to believe the Flames are any more well-conditioned than any other team in the league.

This was something widely accepted, and it's been pointed out (whether you'll acknowledge or admit it to yourself or others or not) the reason you don't believe it is because it makes you angry.

There isn't going to be a way to link statistics to how fitness levels translate to wins and losses, but all year long we watched the Flames work consistently from the start of the game to the end. A full sixty minute effort more often than not. Both the coach and players noted that it starts with the tempo at which they practice and translates to full sixty minute efforts that often aren't matched by the other teams.

Whether that can be quantified or calculated is irrelevant. We watched it, and it translated as one of many factors that made up a winning environment.

Once again, things that are foreign concepts to you as an Oilers fan, and an underlaying reason why this topic annoys you.

The Oilers are the Michael Sam or Eugenie Bouchard of hockey. All sorts of hype, the media loves them, historic franchise, stories and endorsements galore... but on the playing field, they have no substance. Competition weeds out the pretenders. True sports fans care about the competition, and not all the other superfluous stuff.

That is why the Oiler fans can't understand what is going on. They have everything going for them, except an on-ice product.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I'm convinced that the only fans who still support the Oilers after this past decade are absolutely out of their mind delusional. Oil Stain backs up this argument to a T. No amount of factual evidence will be enough to convince them.

And if you want to get into media being paid to sell stories, what about the stories they've been selling you Oiler fans for the past 10 years? You have been suckered into cheering for an organization that hasn't respected it's fan base in years. If I was a terrible human being who cheered for the Oilers since 2006, maybe I'd find myself on a rival teams forum trying to talk their team down also.

[Weitz]

I'm convinced that the only fans who still support the Oilers after this past decade are absolutely out of their mind delusional. Oil Stain backs up this argument to a T. No amount of factual evidence will be enough to convince them.

And if you want to get into media being paid to sell stories, what about the stories they've been selling you Oiler fans for the past 10 years? You have been suckered into cheering for an organization that hasn't respected it's fan base in years. If I was a terrible human being who cheered for the Oilers since 2006, maybe I'd find myself on a rival teams forum trying to talk their team down also.

Wow. I feel bad for you man. That is a lot of vitriol for something as meaningless as sports team support.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Wow. I feel bad for you man.

I'm not the Tier 2 fan cheering for a team that has been record breaking awful. Don't feel bad for me bud.

[CaptainCrunch]

Maybe not. Flames play a different (or same but slightly ahead of the pack in ways) and complete game. Activated D is a key piece of the overall game.

Corsi is based on volume of shots and not critical decision making.

Is high shooting percentage an anomaly or a product of the emphasis on hockey IQ? Incidentally, this change started under Feaster

This

the Flames panned on possession numbers and volume of shot numbers because they don't play that style.

A lot of the advanced Stats were built to measure teams that play the Detroit system of hockey, until the stats take into effects shots area and successes based on shot areas, they're going to fail to measure teams that play off of the rush and attack key scoring areas.

The Flames had poor possession numbers because they don't play the style of Detroit or LA, they don't bury the puck on the boards and mess with it in the corners.

While possession numbers would make sense for blueline pairings in terms of times spent in their own zone with and without possession.

If a team comes whipping down the ice and sets up a great scoring opportunity versus a team that cycles in the corner for 5 minutes to get a scoring change, the rush team is getting punished.

A team with a collapsing defense that pushes teams to the outside where they have to cycle is going to lose the possession battle, but the quality of scoring chances is probably going to be lopsided to the defensive team because they do a good job of protecting the key scoring areas.

As much as people like to use advanced stats, sometimes they fail the eye test.

The Flames were very good last year in terms of forcing teams to shoot from the outside edges and letting teams mess around with the puck in non threatening areas.

Not all teams are the Red Wings or the Kinds or even the ducks.

The offensive system for the Flames has been very good for almost two seasons now, but they're possession numbers aren't great. I'll take our system thanks.

[GranteedEV]

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

Both teams had decent, but still losing records in games where they trailed at the end of the 2nd period:

2013-14 Kings - 6-21-3 (.250)
2014-15 Flames - 10-20-4 (.353)
2014-15 Oilers - 2-32-3 (0.095)

Both teams were made comebacks in the playoffs, where conditioning in OT can be a huge factor:
2013-14 Kings PO - 4-8 (.333)
2014-15 Flames PO - (3-3) (.500)

Both teams were good at come away with points in games tied after 2 periods:

2013-14 Kings - 13-4-5 (0.705)
2014-15 Flames - 11-9-2 (.545)
2014-15 Oilers 5-8-5 (0.417)

Both teams' RS success had a lot more to more to do with their ability to hold leads with their conditioning and hard work:

2014-15 Flames - 24-1-1 (0.942)
2013-14 Kings - 27-3-0 (0.900)
2014-15 Oilers - 17-4-6 (0.741)

If the Oilers merely had the lesser of either LA/Calgary's ability in third periods, this is what their record looks like:

Trailing: 8-26-3 (.257)
Evens: 9-8-1 (.528)
Leading: 24-2-1 (.907)

Season record: 41-36-5 (87 Points)

Conditioning is very much a part of the difference between a 62 point team and an 87 point team. And if the Oilers had the greater of LA/Calgary's third period ability:

Trailing - 13-24-0 (.351)
Evens - 12-5-1 (.694)
Leading - 25-1-1 (.944)

Season record - 50-30-2 (102 Points)

Still think conditioning don't mean much? On average that's a 95 point season for EDMONTON if their 3rd period performances are between as good as the Kings and the Flames.

[Enoch Root]

A big change this year is I think teams will push the Flames even when they are winning. I think a lot of the struggles the Flames had last year was when teams pushed hard up the ice and fore checked.

I don't think anyone will be taking the Flames lightly this year after last year.
No one took the Flames lightly last year.

Every single coach, and every single team, came to town and said: we know they are a very hard working team and if we don't match their intensity, they'll embarrass us.

You can play that down as lip service, but every team pre-scouts every other team. There are no surprises anymore.

[GioforPM]

A big change this year is I think teams will push the Flames even when they are winning. I think a lot of the struggles the Flames had last year was when teams pushed hard up the ice and fore checked.

I don't think anyone will be taking the Flames lightly this year after last year.

You think the Kings took the Flames lightly? Even after the first two times they beat them? Or when the season was on the line?

Or how about Boston? Flames beat them in dramatic fashion in Calgary, so did they take them lightly the next game (that Calgary won also).

[saillias]

Well done spending 45 minutes trying to prove an NHL article wrong Oil Stain. That is quite the joke of a rebuttal, but I'd expect nothing less from a pathetic Oiler fan.

Jeeeezus what's with the vitriol he hasn't killed any puppies or kicked any babies man he's just a fan of the blue team. Relax a little, he can't hurt you

[Street Pharmacist]

No one took the Flames lightly last year.

Every single coach, and every single team, came to town and said: we know they are a very hard working team and if we don't match their intensity, they'll embarrass us.

You can play that down as lip service, but every team pre-scouts every other team. There are no surprises anymore.
No one ever takes any teams lightly anymore except maybe bottom 2/3 teams. A 25th place team still wins 35% of their games, it's not a gimme