Smid thinks he is ready. UPD: Hopes to be cleared for mid October

[sureLoss]

Pretty much confirms the reports from Winsport:

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/08/26/calgary-flames-d-ladislav-smid-looks-to-be-ready-for-training-camp

“From my point of view, I feel pretty much ready,” Smid said after a session with a collection of pros at the WinSport facility at Canada Olympic Park. “I’ve been skating the past almost four weeks, training all summer and don’t feel I’m behind anything. I can base myself against the guys who’ve been here all summer and feel I’m where I want to be, but it depends on what the doctors think.

“I don’t want to get my hopes up, but I’m hoping. I want to be positive and hope the news is going to be good and I’m going to be ready, but if not, you don’t want to play until it’s ready.

“I’ll keep training and go when the doctors give me the green light.”

The next step in his return to action is a visit to doctors in California next week.

[Yamer]

It would be great to see him cleared and able to bolster the already stellar upper tier depth of the Flames defense corps.

It would be even better to know that he can continue his career. Hoping for the best, here.

[jayswin]

Excellent, I hope he can pick up where left off and be a valuable contributor to the team. I was really scared that was it for him.

I also kind of hated Flames fans who were actively hoping he couldn't make it back to get his salary off the books. I get it, we all want cap space so we can sign our best players, but there's lots of ways to gain cap space, and hoping a really good guy with a family and nothing but classy service to his organizations in his career is injured so bad that's he's done in the NHL so we can free up $3mil in space is a terrible line of thinking, imo.

Really glad to hear this, and hopefully he's good to go. If he's back to good health I'd be comfortable with him as the 6th/7th defenseman. I'd like to see Wotherspoon with more time in the AHL anyways.

[chockfullofgoodness]

Sure, his cap hit is pretty high, but if he's 100 percent, he adds nice depth to our blue line.

[GranteedEV]

Imagine if thanks to this surgery he returns to 2011-12 Form on a shutdown pairing with Hamilton!

http://i.imgur.com/y0JNdsH.png

We would be instant top team in the league.

[Robo]

we were better with a healthy smid in the line up hope he is ok to play

[Gaskal]

He was a possession black hole, but reasonably good defensively.

[Badgers Nose]

He was a possession black hole, but reasonably good defensively.

Whatever the #### that means.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Smid used to be really good.

[Major Major]

This is great news. Not only does he add depth but also could provide lineup flexibility. With the assumed top 6, Gio and Brodie pairing results in a double RD pair. With smid or Witherspoon, we can have 2 Rd/ld.

Also, smid won't be paired with engelland. That was a big part of both of their seasons last year.

[icarus]

Remind me again whose dirty check it was that gave him the concussion?

[AC]

Remind me again whose dirty check it was that gave him the concussion?

#### Simon Despres.

[flamesfan55]

Can we afford him on the team? I thought we were getting close to the cap.

[Poe969]

If he's cleared and comes back at 100% then the Flames are in trouble...in a good way though. Having too many NHL defensemen isn't a bad problem to have but you'd hate to have respectable players in the press box every night or to have prospects ready to take the next step being stuck in the minors because there isn't room for them. I think whoever has the best chemistry with Hamilton will get the gig. Wideman and Russell are a lock together and Gio and Brodie are likely a lock together but if Gio has great chemistry with Hamilton, I think Brodie will play with Engelland and Smid will be the odd man out. If Hamilton and Brodie have great chemistry, I think Gio will likely play with Smid. If a rookie steps up and forces his way on the team, I think it'll be even more confusing.

I'd love to have Smid on this team at 100% but I'd also like Engelland or someone like Morrison or Nakladal or another rookie on the team too. All this really means is there is even more competition to make a pretty stacked back end on the Flames and if management is forced to make a deal, it'll likely benefit the Flames a lot too.

[Itse]

I'm not too worried aboud having too many defenseman. There seems to always be buyers for them, especially veterans.

[getbak]

Can we afford him on the team? I thought we were getting close to the cap.
Close to the cap, but they don't have to add any more players, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Here's the current cap situation: https://www.hockeyscap.com/teams/flames

If you assume that Ferland will sign for under a million next season, and that Bennett will make the team out of camp, they'll have less than $1 million in cap space ... but that's also a 26 man roster, so three of those salaries can't start the season in Calgary.

[Poe969]

It is a great situation to be in...if there are buyers. I don't know who I'd want to get rid of on the back end though. If Smid is cleared to play, someone will have to go though and that sucks.

[albertGQ]

So that basically ends the Shlemko tenure in Calgary hey?

[lazypucker]

double post

[lazypucker]

So that basically ends the Shlemko tenure in Calgary hey?


I don't think he will be back anyways unless 2 of our top 6 are out long term

[Poe969]

The Flames probably wanted to sign Schlemko, they just couldn't afford his 3 mil per year value.... Schlemko wasn't bad (not worth what some thought) but he really didn't do much of anything great where at least Smid (when 100%) is usually a rock on the back end.

Who are the teams in need of 4-6D right now?

[IgiTang]

^edmonton

[Poe969]

I think Edmonton needs 1-4 Dmen first.

[IgiTang]

Well... 1-6 really... Oh wait, sorry. They have Nikitin. We are both wrong. They need 1-5 dmen.
Geez.. Smid sure would help them out.

[Locke]

We re-sign Smid for $4.5M first and then we trade him to Edmonton for their First Round pick.

Profit!!

[Gaskal]

Whatever the #### that means.
Kris Russell without offense.

[DoubleK]

Great news. Hope he can make it back into the lineup.

[JT45]

If Smid is back there might be no openings for our younger guys. Are any/all of them waiver exempt, or is there a possibility of losing them?- ie Wotherspoon, Morrison, Nakladal.

[Finger Cookin]

Nakladal has to clear waivers. The others do not.

The only other players likely to start the season in Stockton that have to clear waivers are Derek Grant and Turner Elson. There might be some tough waiver exposure decisions to make on the main roster (Do you expose Ortio? Shore? Ferland?), but most of the farm team can move up and down with no waiver consequences.

[sureLoss]

I am pretty sure Nakladal is waiver exempt. I realize Hockey's Cap has something different, but I believe they are wrong.

[Finger Cookin]

I'm just basing that off of the Hockey'sCap calculator (https://hockeyscap.com/waivers_calculator/jakub_nakladal). Not sure how it works with KHL experienced players who are 25+, to be honest. Though with this being his first NHL contract (as far as I can tell), it would make sense he would be exempt this year. We'll see.

[getbak]

Nakladal has to clear waivers.
I don't believe he does. He's on his first NHL contract, so his previous professional experience does not count towards his waiver exemption.



The first season in which a Player who is age 20 or older plays in one (1) or more Professional Games shall constitute the first year for calculating the number of years he is exempt from Regular Waivers.

A Player 25 years old or older who plays in one (1) or more Professional Games in any season shall be exempt from Regular Waivers for the remainder of that season.

For Players age 20 or older, Professional Games include NHL Games, all minor league regular season and playoff games and any other professional games, including but not limited to, play in European leagues when Player is on Loan to such club, and while Player is party to an SPC.

He has never previously been party to an SPC, so this should be considered his one year of waiver exemption.

[Finger Cookin]

Makes sense to me. Contacted Hockey's Cap to see if they will correct and/or clarify. But yeah, I agree with you both after reading the specifics in the CBA.

[foshizzle11]

So that leaves this for our roster:

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russel-Smid

7th/8th
Engelland
Wotherspoon
Morrison
Nakladal

I guess Smid and Engelland will share the 6th spot unless we have injuries. Maybe someone is moved before the season starts to make space for one of the youngsters if they have a good camp?

What does Smid do that Engelland can't do? Who do we all prefer in the lineup night in and night out? I think I would prefer Engelland. I think having depth is good but do we keep all these guys going into the season?? I doubt it.

[Locke]

So that leaves this for our roster:

Gio-Brodie
Hamilton-Wideman
Russel-Smid

7th/8th
Engelland
Wotherspoon
Morrison
Nakladal

I guess Smid and Engelland will share the 6th spot unless we have injuries. Maybe someone is moved before the season starts to make space for one of the youngsters if they have a good camp?

What does Smid do that Engelland can't do? Who do we all prefer in the lineup night in and night out? I think I would prefer Engelland. I think having depth is good but do we keep all these guys going into the season?? I doubt it.

Isnt that awesome?

I'm a full on Pro-Engelland convert. When he stepped up for Gio shows me his value and it is awesome.

I'm also a huge fan of Morrisson.

I know literally nothing about Nakladal.

But if Smid cant make it back, and thats not a bad thing, you dont screw around with back/neck injuries, Engelland can step in and we literally wont miss a beat.

Love it. Thats a great defence corps.

Going from: 'If Gio goes down we're screwed' all the way to 'we have too many excellent, qualified, NHL defencemen.'

[foshizzle11]

I also know nothing about Nakladal, is he better than Morrison and Wotherspoon right now? Can he compete at the NHL level?

I personally don't think Wotherspoon has it and will always be close to being the #6 but will be passed by other prospects. So that leaves Morrison, who will likely be in Stockton this year if everyone is healthy.

This will be interesting and it is an awesome problem, that really isn't a problem.

[Locke]

I also know nothing about Nakladal, is he better than Morrison and Wotherspoon right now? Can he compete at the NHL level?

I personally don't think Wotherspoon has it and will always be close to being the #6 but will be passed by other prospects. So that leaves Morrison, who will likely be in Stockton this year if everyone is healthy.

This will be interesting and it is an awesome problem, that really isn't a problem.

Pretty much. I get the impression that Wotherspoon isnt in the long-term plans.

[Yamer]

Watching Wotherspoon in the WHL, he was always impressive for unnoticeable reasons. Exactly the way he was supposed to be.

I still think he sneaks in as an above average and very reliable 5-6 guy.

[Parallex]

He was a possession black hole, but reasonably good defensively.

That's not possible. If he was a possession blackhole that means the Flames were giving up way more shot attempts they they were taking... I don't think you can call yourself "reasonably good defensively" if the other team is constantly allowed to fire rubber in the direction of your goalie when you're on the ice.

That said as the HERO chart demonstrated 2010-2012 Smid was a legitimate #4 d-man so if we could get that Smid back then it'd be a real boon (both in play and in terms of trade value).

[Strange Brew]

If Smid can play up to his contract, that would certainly open up possibilities for the Flames.

[Gaskal]

That's not possible. If he was a possession blackhole that means the Flames were giving up way more shot attempts they they were taking... I don't think you can call yourself "reasonably good defensively" if the other team is constantly allowed to fire rubber in the direction of your goalie when you're on the ice.

That said as the HERO chart demonstrated 2010-2012 Smid was a legitimate #4 d-man so if we could get that Smid back then it'd be a real boon (both in play and in terms of trade value).
He can block shots, doesn't screw up in the d-zone terribly often and can clear the front of the net. But you can't rely on him to move the puck that well as he's mostly limited to chipping the puck off the glass or boards.

Russell also had pretty bad possession stats but was decent enough in his own zone, would you say he wasn't good defensively? Just a matter of perspective. A positive corsi (aka Oilers) stat isn't always going to indicate 'better' defensive play.

[Parallex]

Russell also had pretty bad possession stats but was decent enough in his own zone, would you say he wasn't good defensively?

I would say that without the offensive component to his game Kris Russell wouldn't be an NHL defenseman. I don't think all that highly of his game with regards to suppressing the opposition and I think peception of him will decline this year when Hamilton eats into his ice-time.

That said I prefer him to Smid and Engelland, so that's something.

[CroFlames]

I would say that without the offensive component to his game Kris Russell wouldn't be an NHL defenseman. I don't think all that highly of his game with regards to suppressing the opposition and I think peception of him will decline this year when Hamilton eats into his ice-time.

That said I prefer him to Smid and Engelland, so that's something.

So setting an NHL record for blocked shots doesn't qualify him to be an NHL d-man, it's purely his offense?

Really?

QUITE the ridiculous comment.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/kris-russell-calgary-flames-shot-block-leaders/

[Parallex]

So setting an NHL record for blocked shots doesn't qualify him to be an NHL d-man

Chris Butler was 2nd in the league in blocked shots one year (the next year he was shuttling between the AHL and NHL)... I wouldn't use that as a measure of defensive aptitude.

I don't hate Kris Russell, I think he's a perfectly servicable bottom-pairing defenseman who can contribute on the 2nd unit PP (but probably won't this year because we've got Hamilton or Wideman to fill that spot).

[CroFlames]

Chris Butler was 2nd in the league in blocked shots one year (the next year he was shuttling between the AHL and NHL)... I wouldn't use that as a measure of defensive aptitude.

I don't hate Kris Russell, I think he's a perfectly servicable bottom-pairing defenseman who can contribute on the 2nd unit PP (but probably won't this year because we've got Hamilton or Wideman to fill that spot).

That is a horrible comparison.

Russell is very responsible in his own end. You honestly sound like a pure-stat guy who judges players on their stats and not their play.

I don't recall ever this season wishing Russell would make less mistakes in his own end or be smarter or whatever. Always hustling, and making high percentage plays defensively.

He is a top 4 guy on any NHL team.

[GranteedEV]

I would say that without the offensive component to his game Kris Russell wouldn't be an NHL defenseman.


Russell is very responsible in his own end.

...

He is a top 4 guy on any NHL team.

The answer is... somewhere in the middle.

[Gaskal]

Russell has stepped up big this season. However, with Gio-Brodie-Hamilton we're among those elite-level bluelines like Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson and Pietrangelo/Bouw/Shattenkirk. On a contender-level blueline, Russell is a serviceable #4 and a very good #5 defenceman.

Kris is someone who could really flourish given some easier zone starts and minutes. Sure, he's shown he can handle it, but ideally you want someone that has lower shot suppression like he does starting off in the o-zone. On a fully stocked blueline, I'd be looking to give him the exact same deployments and minutes as we did Schlemko towards the end of the season - who drove possession extremely well with his limited minutes and cushier starts. Plus, Russell and Engelland did enjoy some chemistry together playing preseason IIRC.

http://thenationnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/images/14/bb/article_14bbf2b6-7b10-49a6-8c9d-d04efb60f43d.png

Gio and Brodie were positive corsi players even after being thrown into the d-zone vs the highest competition. Dougie can pretty much be counted as another Gio (http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2015/6/26/8853743/new-flame-dougie-hamilton-s-2014-15-season-by-the-numbers) in terms of pure possession/minutes/deployment.

Wideman and Russell ended up in the red due to having to step up to take Gio/Brodie's minutes, while Brodie held down the second pairing all by himself. Those two held down the fort admirably down the stretch, but their possession stats tanked because of it. I think Gio hadn't gotten injured and those two were still playing 2nd pairing minutes, they could've at least broke even.

[GranteedEV]

Wideman and Russell ended up in the red due to having to step up to take Gio/Brodie's minutes, while Brodie held down the second pairing all by himself.

Not quite.

Hartley used the Engelland/Brodie pairing the way he used the Giordano/Brodie pairing - exclusively starting in the D-zone against high level of competition. You could probably browse around War-on-ice and put together a chart for it, but basically Brodie was still our #1D. That's why you see Brodie even further left of Giordano, albeit a little bit lower on the Y-axis, and Engelland higher/more left than any of the other bottom pair guys.

[Gaskal]

Yes, but minutes played are also a big factor; Shattenkirk attests to this. (http://www.theplayerstribune.com/elite-defensemen-101-kevin-shattenkirk-nhl/)
"Personally, my minutes have gone up this year from 20 to 22, and even that little difference is noticeable. I definitely feel it after games. Adding another seven minutes onto that is almost unthinkable."
With Gio out, that's a massive workload that has to be replaced. The man was already playing 25+min a night. Hartley had Wideman and Russell eating up a lot more minutes than they'd been playing and it definitely affects their on-ice performance. If Ryan van Asten hadn't done such a great job conditioning the team, we might not have made it in.

[Anduril]

Yes, but minutes played are also a big factor; Shattenkirk attests to this. (http://www.theplayerstribune.com/elite-defensemen-101-kevin-shattenkirk-nhl/)

With Gio out, that's a massive workload that has to be replaced. The man was already playing 25+min a night. Hartley had Wideman and Russell eating up a lot more minutes than they'd been playing and it definitely affects their on-ice performance. If Ryan van Asten hadn't done such a great job conditioning the team, we might not have made it in.

To add to that, you could tell by the Anaheim series the defense was barely holding together when it came to defending the zone. It was bad enough that the Ducks were the biggest and baddest team when it came to physically punishing and making you work for the puck but the gas tank was running on magic fumes by then.

[Street Pharmacist]

To add to that, you could tell by the Anaheim series the defense was barely holding together when it came to defending the zone. It was bad enough that the Ducks were the biggest and baddest team when it came to physically punishing and making you work for the puck but the gas tank was running on magic fumes by then.
And as Quick pointed out, Perry and Getzlaf spend so much time being the net it gets exhausting for the defense to constantly grind on the boards

[TjRhythmic]

Yes, but minutes played are also a big factor; Shattenkirk attests to this. (http://www.theplayerstribune.com/elite-defensemen-101-kevin-shattenkirk-nhl/)

With Gio out, that's a massive workload that has to be replaced. The man was already playing 25+min a night. Hartley had Wideman and Russell eating up a lot more minutes than they'd been playing and it definitely affects their on-ice performance. If Ryan van Asten hadn't done such a great job conditioning the team, we might not have made it in.

That's the biggest reason I'm excited for this next season. No more are your pairings going to be 30-25-5 in a game. You could essentially break it out evenly 20-20-20 now, and with the conditioning of the team that is going to be a very fast third period team.

I'm comparing it to the years Nash played with the Suns and all they did was run run run. With this defense essentially being the point guard they are just going to push push and push... Calgary might even be a better third period team then they were last year

[Enoch Root]

Maybe not 20-20-20, but something like 23-21-16 or 22-20-18.

Whatever it shakes out as, that 3 or 4 fewer minutes per night for Giordano, Brodie, Russell and Wideman will be MASSIVE down the stretch and into the playoffs.

Anaheim is a really good, and very punishing team. I take nothing away from them in that regard. But I think sometimes people underestimate just how spent and beaten up the Flames D was by the time they got to the Ducks.

Russell was done. Brodie was all but done (and nursing a sore ankle)

Its no different than playing Kipper 75 games - you cant expect to win in the playoffs if you spent all your chips just getting there.

The depth that the Flames now have at D will pay huge dividends down the stretch and hopefully mush further.

[ricardodw]

Looking at this whole thread and I am surprised that no one else has yet identified the negative impact of getting a 6/7 Dman back into the salary cap for the next 2 years.... especially when the other 6/7 guy is carrying a cap hit of 2.9M

Updated for the Byron signing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1enxlS1NlAxWfTgW7gvFQdn-j_t0orAjBdkvv5qC_pfs/edit?usp=sharing

Great work by InCoGnEto... nobody has yet filled the gap left by Cap Geek

If Smid is cleared to play then this means that Hudler and Russell are in their farewell as a Flame tour. 2016-17 InCoGnEto has the Flames dropping their Goalie cap hit from 7.9M to 4M and the cap going up 5% to 74.9 .... neither very likely to happen...


With Smid replacing Wotherspoon and adding 2M to the cap the Flame committed 2015-16 cap without Hudler and Russell is 71.9M ... above the 2014-15 cap allowed.

The roster 2016-17 is short 2 players.

If nobody will pick up Raymond.... since he is making more than 900k his cap stays with the Flames.

There is a lot of Cp people that simply say get rid of Raymond/Smid/Engelland/ Bollig.... that has not been happening. For example when the Flames had a lot of cap room they did not make one cap space for asset trade.


Even for the 2015-16 season the addition of Smid move the Flames right up to the cap level. Which of the 17 listed forward get sent back to the AHL?

Maybe Ferland won't sign for less than a one-way 900K. That way his cap stays with the Flames when he get sent down.

It sure gets a lot more difficult for "Nothing given , everything earned" when contracts make you play Mason Raymond over someone you have to bury to save cap space.


PS. If I was the Canucks I sure would be willing to give Ferland a 1.8M *3 years one way deal and give up a 3rd round pick.

If Ferland signs an offer sheet with anyone for 1.2M the Flames get nothing.

Of course they would match but then they have one less roster option.

[Enoch Root]

Looking at this whole thread and I am surprised that no one else has yet identified the negative impact of getting a 6/7 Dman back into the salary cap for the next 2 years.... especially when the other 6/7 guy is carrying a cap hit of 2.9M



Great work by InCoGnEto... nobody has yet filled the gap left by Cap Geek

If Smid is cleared to play then this means that Hudler and Russell are in their farewell as a Flame tour. 2016-17 InCoGnEto has the Flames dropping their Goalie cap hit from 7.9M to 4M and the cap going up 5% to 74.9 .... neither very likely to happen...


With Smid replacing Wotherspoon and adding 2M to the cap the Flame committed 2015-16 cap without Hudler and Russell is 71.9M ... above the 2014-15 cap allowed.

The roster 2016-17 is short 2 players.

If nobody will pick up Raymond.... since he is making more than 900k his cap stays with the Flames.

There is a lot of Cp people that simply say get rid of Raymond/Smid/Engelland/ Bollig.... that has not been happening. For example when the Flames had a lot of cap room they did not make one cap space for asset trade.


Even for the 2015-16 season the addition of Smid move the Flames right up to the cap level. Which of the 17 listed forward get sent back to the AHL?

Maybe Ferland won't sign for less than a one-way 900K. That way his cap stays with the Flames when he get sent down.

It sure gets a lot more difficult for "Nothing given , everything earned" when contracts make you play Mason Raymond over someone you have to bury to save cap space.


PS. If I was the Canucks I sure would be willing to give Ferland a 1.8M *3 years one way deal and give up a 3rd round pick.

If Ferland signs an offer sheet with anyone for 1.2M the Flames get nothing.

Of course they would match but then they have one less roster option.

Because the negative impact is largely in your head.

You referred to InCoGnEtO's spreadsheet as if it is fact.

Maybe you don't understand what an assumption is. But here are a few of the assumptions that you consider to be truths that get you to your conclusions:

Monahan $6M
Gaudreau $6M
Colborne $3M
Granlund $1.5M
Wotherspoon $1.5M
Ortio $3M

I will take the under on every single one of them.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

If Smid is healthy but can't return to form and remains a 3.5m 6/7 Dman, I highly doubt BT is just going to sit around and let him and Engelland be the reason he can't sign an important piece that he wants to sign. There are options, you don't have to wait until a semi-bad contract expires to get rid of it. I suspect if Smid becomes an anchor, he would be bought out before BT let his salary dictate the moves he's going to make. $1.16m against the cap for 4 years isn't ideal but it is an option. Same with Engelland/Raymond... these guys aren't going to be the reason we don't sign Hudler or Russell, they're just not. Good managers find creative ways to fix minor problems (and they are minor problems), they don't just lay down and let them play out in such a way that they hurt the organization.

BT really only needs to create roughly 3m-4m in cap space to sign both players as they already make $6.6m combined. Realistically, the most they would sign for would be 6m for Hudler and 4.5m for Russell but I really think they will be had for less when it's all said and done. I see Hudler at $5m-5.5m and Russell at around 4m, it really is going to come down to how much both players want to be here rather than what Smid and Engelland make. I could see the argument if both players were on ELCs but they already make a decent chuck of coin, giving them each an extra $1.25m-1.5m is not going to be a problem if that's what BT wants to do. The term both players will want will likely be the major sticking point in negotiations I would think, especially with Hudler.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Because the negative impact is largely in your head.

You referred to InCoGnEtO's spreadsheet as if it is fact.

Maybe you don't understand what an assumption is. But here are a few of the assumptions that you consider to be truths that get you to your conclusions:

Monahan $6M
Gaudreau $6M
Colborne $3M
Granlund $1.5M
Wotherspoon $1.5M
Ortio $3M

I will take the under on every single one of them.

Johnny and Sean might be around 6m especially given the salary structure that's in place right now. It really depends what they do next season. If they even just repeat their 14/15 performances, they are getting what Hamilton got at the bare minimum, likely a bit more for hopefully a couple extra years.

The other 4 at a combined 9m is not happening, no way, no how. If Colborne doesn't develop further, they likely go with Shore or Arnold before even qualifying him IMO. Ortio isn't going to to get the starts to get 3m, though we will need a goalie so we might need to spend a little here. That's okay though because Ramo/Hiller's combined 8.3m(!) can cover that and create space somewhere else as well (Johnny/Monahan). Granlund and Wotherspoon are both in tough to even make the team, much less get huge raises.

As long as BT can make one of Stajan, Raymond, Smid or Engellend disappear, we are fine unless the cap drops. If he can make two of them go... we are laughing. Jones' 4m is expiring too, there's plenty of room for BT to do what he wants.

[GreenLantern2814]

That is a horrible comparison.

Russell is very responsible in his own end. You honestly sound like a pure-stat guy who judges players on their stats and not their play.

I don't recall ever this season wishing Russell would make less mistakes in his own end or be smarter or whatever. Always hustling, and making high percentage plays defensively.

He is a top 4 guy on any NHL team.

Russell is a 3rd pairing D on a contending team. If he is playing higher up the roster, your team is not going to win the Stanley Cup. He's a good puck mover, skates well, and he doesn't make boneheaded mistakes a la Butler.

He has physical limitations. Russell was not able to contain Getzlaf and Perry, and I can't see that changing without a dangerous level of PED use.

With that said, he is more than a match for most bottom six forwards in the NHL. Every team needs a guy on the 3rd pairing that can move up the roster for a few weeks and hold the fort.

[ricardodw]

Because the negative impact is largely in your head.

You referred to InCoGnEtO's spreadsheet as if it is fact.

Maybe you don't understand what an assumption is. But here are a few of the assumptions that you consider to be truths that get you to your conclusions:

Monahan $6M
Gaudreau $6M
Colborne $3M
Granlund $1.5M
Wotherspoon $1.5M
Ortio $3M

I will take the under on every single one of them.

I only added 2M replacing Wotherspoon with Smid. ... I don't think Ortio will be on the Flames next year... certainly not for 3M .... the 3.8 M goal tender place holder would put the Flames in 29th spot as far as Goal tender cap.... Buffalo is #30 ... not the standard the Flames want to keep up to.

With Hiller already committed and paid for the Flames felt is necessary to bring back Ramo at 3.8M.

Over or under on the Flames spending 4M next year on goalies?


The Flames just gave Hamilton 5.75 for 6 years ..... there is no way that they would have traded Monahan or Gaudreau for Hamilton even up.

Everyone was raving about the magic that Trevling did getting Hamilton for 5.75 x 6 ...

Contract wise Gaudreau and Monahan will be in the same position in June 2016 as Hamilton was this year..... except they will have a far better track record ...

If Monahan and Gaudreau don't get more than Hamilton it will mean that the Flames will be looking at a top 10 draft pick as their play will have fallen way off of expectations.

[Enoch Root]

It is impossible to guess who will still be around a year from now, but we can look at it in the aggregate to get an idea.

Some of the contracts/players that are probably not in the long term plans include:

Raymond $3.15M (final year)
Bollig $1.25M (final year)
Smid $3.5M (final year)
Engelland $2.9M (final year)
Wideman $5.25M (final season)

I think the chances of all 3 of those defensemen being on the roster in 16/17 is virtually zero.

And I would go on to say that they are probably ALL gone by, if not the 1617 trade deadline, then after that season.

I would think that if Hudler and Russell are signed (I think they both will) that they will both be less than the $6M and $4.5M mentioned above.

[Vulcan]

Looking at this whole thread and I am surprised that no one else has yet identified the negative impact of getting a 6/7 Dman back into the salary cap for the next 2 years.... especially when the other 6/7 guy is carrying a cap hit of 2.9M



Great work by InCoGnEto... nobody has yet filled the gap left by Cap Geek

If Smid is cleared to play then this means that Hudler and Russell are in their farewell as a Flame tour. 2016-17 InCoGnEto has the Flames dropping their Goalie cap hit from 7.9M to 4M and the cap going up 5% to 74.9 .... neither very likely to happen...


With Smid replacing Wotherspoon and adding 2M to the cap the Flame committed 2015-16 cap without Hudler and Russell is 71.9M ... above the 2014-15 cap allowed.

The roster 2016-17 is short 2 players.

If nobody will pick up Raymond.... since he is making more than 900k his cap stays with the Flames.

There is a lot of Cp people that simply say get rid of Raymond/Smid/Engelland/ Bollig.... that has not been happening. For example when the Flames had a lot of cap room they did not make one cap space for asset trade.


Even for the 2015-16 season the addition of Smid move the Flames right up to the cap level. Which of the 17 listed forward get sent back to the AHL?

Maybe Ferland won't sign for less than a one-way 900K. That way his cap stays with the Flames when he get sent down.

It sure gets a lot more difficult for "Nothing given , everything earned" when contracts make you play Mason Raymond over someone you have to bury to save cap space.


PS. If I was the Canucks I sure would be willing to give Ferland a 1.8M *3 years one way deal and give up a 3rd round pick.

If Ferland signs an offer sheet with anyone for 1.2M the Flames get nothing.

Of course they would match but then they have one less roster option.

You're not quite accurate here. I believe what happens is that if say Raymond is waived and sent down, $900,000 of his salary comes off the cap so his cap hit would be $2,250,000.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

It is impossible to guess who will still be around a year from now, but we can look at it in the aggregate to get an idea.

Some of the contracts/players that are probably not in the long term plans include:

Raymond $3.15M (final year)
Bollig $1.25M (final year)
Smid $3.5M (final year)
Engelland $2.9M (final year)
Wideman $5.25M (final season)

I think the chances of all 3 of those defensemen being on the roster in 16/17 is virtually zero.

And I would go on to say that they are probably ALL gone by, if not the 1617 trade deadline, then after that season.

I would think that if Hudler and Russell are signed (I think they both will) that they will both be less than the $6M and $4.5M mentioned above.

I meant that as the absolute upper limit of what they would get and I certainly don't see them getting that from us. If they hit UFA, I could see a team like Nashville really going after Hudler or a team like Edmonton going after Russell but they will have to accept less to stay here IMO. Ideally Hudler is 5x5.25m and Russell is 5x3.75m at the most. The ball is really in their court though and these are probably the biggest contracts they will sign so I wouldn't blame them if the wanted to maximize the opportunity.

[Finger Cookin]

Regarding cap hits that can be buried, it's $375K above the league minimum. Therefore:

2015-16: $575K + $375K = $950K
2016-17: $575K + $375K = $950K
2017-18: $650K + $375K = $1.025M
2018-19: $650K + $375K = $1.025M
2019-20: $700K + $375K = $1.075M
2020-21: $700K + $375K = $1.075M
2021-22: $750K + $375K = $1.125M

With regards to defense pairs and ice-time, if the Flames third pair could be counted on for even 15 minutes a night this season, it would make a huge difference to the quality of minutes the top 4 can provide.

[ricardodw]

You're not quite accurate here. I believe what happens is that if say Raymond is waived and sent down, $900,000 of his salary comes off the cap so his cap hit would be $2,250,000.

Don't know if you get a 900K break if it is over 900K the whole thing counts.

I tried looking it up and couldn't come up with a clear answer.


Any CBA gurus out there that would be able to answer?


Keeping on topic what cap hit would Smid have if he was waived , not claimed and sent down.

[Enoch Root]

you get a $950K break, but that's it

and you still have to replace the player

[Enoch Root]

For example, let's say the Flames sent down Raymond and replaced him with Poirier.

The Flames would still have $3.15M - $950K = $2.2M for on the books for Raymond

Plus they would add $925K for Poirier, so they would still have $2.2M + $925K = $3.125M on the books, saving a whopping $25K

[Freeway]

If Raymond's in the NHL, he makes $3.15 million and counts $3.15 million against the cap.
If Raymond's in the AHL, he makes $3.15 million and counts $2.20 million against the cap.

[IgiTang]

I dont see both of Smid and Engalland on the team past this season. Further to that, one of Raymond, Stajan and Jones will be gone after the season or at the deadline. If not all of them.

Then consider the log jam at Center in 2 years.

Monahan
Backlund
Bennett
Granlund
Arnold
Jankowski
Colborne (mentioned last due to able to play wing)

Treliving is not going to lose sight of the cap in 2 years and is absolutely going to make moves that will provide options without putting the core in danger.

[jayswin]

One other minor thing that teams will be keeping in mind for the summer of 2017 is teams will be having to leave NHL players unprotected for an expansion draft for at least one and likely two new NHL teams.

If you work hard and get rid of every questionable contract and perfectly tailor your team for the cap in the next two seasons, you could potentially be setting yourself up to lose a quality player that you really wanted if there's no Raymond/Jones/Stajan type players left.

[420since1974]

Calgary's potential for Cap hell will be at the end of this season.

Gaudreau and Monahan will be RFAs and will most likely receive large, long term contracts, though I haven't completely given up on the possibility of bridge contracts.

Byron, Hiller, Hudler, Jones, Nakladal, Ramo, & Russell will be UFAs looking for a raise.
I'd like to be able to keep Hudler, Russell, and one of Hiller/Ramo but there won't be Cap space available unless most of the unfavorable contracts below are moved this season.
I expect Jones to be moved for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick at the TDL this season.

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of 2016/2017. That frees up over $16M in Cap space but it'll be one year too late.
Stajan will be the last "bad" contract, his will expire at the end of 2017/2018.

[bax]

Calgary's potential for Cap hell will be at the end of this season.

Gaudreau and Monahan will be RFAs and will most likely receive large, long term contracts, though I haven't completely given up on the possibility of bridge contracts.

Byron, Hiller, Hudler, Jones, Nakladal, Ramo, & Russell will be UFAs looking for a raise.
I'd like to be able to keep Hudler, Russell, and one of Hiller/Ramo but there won't be Cap space available unless most of the unfavorable contracts below are moved this season.
I expect Jones to be moved for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick at the TDL this season.

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of 2016/2017. That frees up over $16M in Cap space but it'll be one year too late.
Stajan will be the last "bad" contract, his will expire at the end of 2017/2018.


How do you figure Byron, Hiller, Jones, Nakladal, and Ramo will be looking for raises?

Byron has been signing one years deals for under a million bucks for 2 seasons now. Can't see him needing much of a raise.

One of Hiller or Ramo will most likely be traded or just let go at the end of the year. Ramo just got a significant raise so unless his play gets drastically better I doubt he will see a bigger salary.

Everyone seems to agree that although jones has his place, he is still overpaid. Most likely traded at the deadline or let go in the off season.

Nakladal hasn't even played a game in NA before. Way too premature to say he will be needing a raise.

[ricardodw]

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

[Strange Brew]

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

Well we didn't sign him to a new contract. He was already on the team, so what I think most people are hoping for is that he returns to his level of play from a couple of years ago and plays up to his contract. If he plays up to a $3.5 million defenseman, he could be a worthwhile trade chip or make it easier to move one of the other guys. If he is not able to play up to that level and ends up being a healthy scratch many nights, then he will be very hard to move. Right now he's untradeable until he is able to prove he can play.

I agree our bottom pairing d are paid way too much. On paper and in $'s, the Flames have one of the best d corps in the league. They will need to play up to that level and maybe then some, in order for Treliving to be able to make a move without keeping salary and throwing in value.

[the2bears]

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.

So you're saying you don't like defensive depth? I think it's a good thing to have. Gives you more options, like making another deal.

As for Oduya, you are compare adding a contract to one we have already. Not the same thing.

[heep223]

Back to the topic at hand.... How is getting back a 3.5M on a 2 year deal 3rd pairing (6/7) D-man a good deal for the team?

Is that what anyone thought this team was missing?

I didn't see one post when Oduya signed with Dallas at 3.75 for 2 years about how the Flames missed out or that we needed Barrett Jackman 2 years at 2M.... or Z. Michalek getting away from us a 3.2 for 2 year.


You seem concerned about how much $ he's making...but it doesn't matter this season. The Flames are under the cap with everybody signed (except Ferland but plenty of room). We get it, he's overpaid, but who cares.

He adds to our depth at the bottom of the chart. Quite simple. Really a non-issue.

[Strange Brew]

You seem concerned about how much $ he's making...but it doesn't matter this season. The Flames are under the cap with everybody signed (except Ferland but plenty of room). We get it, he's overpaid, but who cares.

He adds to our depth at the bottom of the chart. Quite simple. Really a non-issue.

To be fair to Ricardo, the salary cap doesn't go away after this year. Hopefully BT finds smart ways to deal with it, but its not a "non issue" if you are managing the long term roster. Its not even a non issue this year if Flames are looking to add players at the deadline. They have a little over $2m in cap space which should be enough but its not a crazy amount of room.

[Sylvanfan]

Buy those guys out at the end of the year if you have to. Smid Engelland and Raymond only have a year left. If you buy them out it uses up just over 3 million in cap space for the next two years instead of 9 next year.

The challenge is the 16-17 season. After that I think the team cap is very workable.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Every team has a Smid, it really isn't a big deal. As long as one of Stajan, Raymond, Smid or Engelland goes before July 1st, we're laughing. Unless the cap goes down, then we might have to get rid of two of those guys. If it comes down to buying a guy out to create cap space, BT could easily do that. Other teams do it every year.

[ricardodw]

Every team has a Smid, it really isn't a big deal. As long as one of Stajan, Raymond, Smid or Engelland goes before July 1st, we're laughing. Unless the cap goes down, then we might have to get rid of two of those guys. If it comes down to buying a guy out to create cap space, BT could easily do that. Other teams do it every year.


Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.

[the2bears]

Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.

But why do you even care? You seem to think this is an unsolvable problem. You haven't even shown it to be a problem, let alone something that cannot be fixed.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.
I meant every team has a bad contract or two they have to deal with. I have faith in BT that he will manage the team in such a way that a guy like Smid won't cause him to lose players he wants to keep.

[savardandjokinen]

After my practice at winsport today, I was walking out and there was smid on the ice with just a coach, skated well, hands a bit choppy but they always kinda were, no game situation so hard to evaluate but based on what I saw I think he was pretty good out there

[dino7c]

Name one other 6/7 D-man making 3.5M

On a lottery team in 2013-14 Smid was #6 behind Brodie-Gio-Wideman-Russell and Chris freakin' Butler.

This not me putting him at #6 ... It is Bob Hartley and the Calgary coaching staff.

Lottery team but still a pretty strong D core...and how was he behind Butler? they were partners right?

[Locke]

I'm actually kind of excited for an Expansion Draft.

[Gaskal]

Lottery team but still a pretty strong D core...and how was he behind Butler? they were partners right?
The pairings were Gio - Brodie, Russell - Butler, Smid - Wideman. But considering how much of a whipping boy Butler turned himself into, I would hardly expect anyone to consider Butler ahead of Smid at any point in time regardless of the pairings Hartley used. Just ricardo placing things out of context to make a point again.

[jayswin]

I'm actually kind of excited for an Expansion Draft.

Me too, I can't wait to see a breaking news thread from sureloss;

"Clerical error in Edmonton leaves Conner McDavid unprotected, claimed by Las Vegas. Poo stained sweat pants everywhere."

[foshizzle11]

^^^^ jayswin, that has to be one of the funniest sentences I have ever read on this forum. Thank you for making me spit out coffee onto my keyboard.

[squiggs96]

I'm actually kind of excited for an Expansion Draft.

I wonder who, besides jhunt223, will fall victim to the expansion draft.

[Locke]

I wonder who, besides jhunt223, will fall victim to the expansion draft.

Ooh, well played. Take your thanks!

[hockey.modern]

Brad Trelving on Smid recovery
http://flames.nhl.com/club/podcastplayer.htm?pid=35&iid=51889

- He's looking really good
- He thinks Smid won't be ready for contact at training camp
- Positive report from the doctors

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Brad Trelving on Smid recovery
http://flames.nhl.com/club/podcastplayer.htm?pid=35&iid=51889

- He's looking really good
- He thinks Smid won't be ready for contact at training camp
- Positive report from the doctors

This is kind of a big deal, no? If he's not ready for contact then he's most likely not on the opening day lineup. Is Smid overconfident or Treliving overly cautious?

[Vinny01]

Engellend was great after Gio went down last year. I will always remember him fighting 2 dirty Nucks at the same time. That contract always looked bad and looks really bad wpconsidering we have Smid on the books as well.

I loved the Smid trad pe at the time. Getting a big physical 28 year old stay at home Dman is what we needed at the time. Oiler fans were crushed which made it better. In classic Oiler fashion he came in as an overhyped player. Smid is certainly at best a bottom pairing Dman and with he and Engellend chewing up $6.4M in cap the next 2 years as 6/7 Dmen and a guy like Wotherspoon knocking on the door I am hoping Trelivng can work his magic and get rid of one or both of them before next summer

[Locke]

I dont know if this is the right place for it, but I'm endeavoring not to criticize Engelland too much this season.

I liked him when we got him but then he was underwhelming, but once Gio went down is when I realized that we need guys like Engelland to win.

I remember in the playoffs when he was on the ice for what seemed like 2 minutes because of icing after icing and he just battled through the whole thing.

He can step into a top 4 role for 20-30 games and be comfortable as well as bring the grit and physicality and you need that in order to win.

[Poe969]

100% agree. I think we need to have a guy like Engelland in the lineup. He can play those minutes we need him to fill in when he has to and he's a capable #6 guy on the team. He also adds strength and toughness to the lineup. I'd prefer having him in the lineup but who does he get paired with? It depends on chemistry I guess but it would be great to have him with one of Hamilton or Brodie (whoever doesn't play with Gio).

Smid seems like a great guy and all but if he isn't ready for training camp, we're still going to be fine. We actually have too many defenders which is awesome!

[CroFlames]

100% agree. I think we need to have a guy like Engelland in the lineup. He can play those minutes we need him to fill in when he has to and he's a capable #6 guy on the team. He also adds strength and toughness to the lineup. I'd prefer having him in the lineup but who does he get paired with? It depends on chemistry I guess but it would be great to have him with one of Hamilton or Brodie (whoever doesn't play with Gio).

Smid seems like a great guy and all but if he isn't ready for training camp, we're still going to be fine. We actually have too many defenders which is awesome!


I think the consensus is that Engo is better than Smiddy. In my mind, that means our top six are pretty cut and dry. The pairings themselves will be very interesting to say the least, but our best six D-men are Gio, Brodie, Dougie, Wides, Russell & Engelland.

Gio-Dougie
Russell-Wideman
Brodie -Engelland

Drools. But I digress.

The #7 and #8 and depth D-men are the question marks. Smiddy is too expensive to be a #7, so I foresee him getting moved. You can get a pick for him - he is still NHL capable.

I've said in previous threads as well, I would be ecstatic if Schlemko would be willing to be #7 and BT gives him a deal. He'd be a great guy to work with the kids in Stockton, and he'd be reliable enough for callups, and I daresay shootouts.

[CroFlames]

I dont know if this is the right place for it, but I'm endeavoring not to criticize Engelland too much this season.

I liked him when we got him but then he was underwhelming, but once Gio went down is when I realized that we need guys like Engelland to win.

I remember in the playoffs when he was on the ice for what seemed like 2 minutes because of icing after icing and he just battled through the whole thing.

He can step into a top 4 role for 20-30 games and be comfortable as well as bring the grit and physicality and you need that in order to win.

Obligatory.

I love this pic so much. It looks like he's rag dolling one Canuck and bitch-slapping another one while he's yelling some obscenity at them LOL. Love it.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/im6H_8BphJAIihH3TQNdxIXhifw=/0x238:2086x1629/730x487/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46161210/GettyImages-470160106.0.jpg

[Poe969]

I think the consensus is that Engo is better than Smiddy. In my mind, that means our top six are pretty cut and dry. The pairings themselves will be very interesting to say the least, but our best six D-men are Gio, Brodie, Dougie, Wides, Russell & Engelland.

Gio-Dougie
Russell-Wideman
Brodie -Engelland

Drools. But I digress.

The #7 and #8 and depth D-men are the question marks. Smiddy is too expensive to be a #7, so I foresee him getting moved. You can get a pick for him - he is still NHL capable.

I've said in previous threads as well, I would be ecstatic if Schlemko would be willing to be #7 and BT gives him a deal. He'd be a great guy to work with the kids in Stockton, and he'd be reliable enough for callups, and I daresay shootouts.

I couldn't agree more with....well everything you're saying. I think that's how the pairings end up and I think they all do well. Smid should be moved when he's healthy just because it doesn't make sense to have him as a 7. Unless there is another injury, there really isn't a need for him. As for Schlemko, I wouldn't mind if he was signed to mentor kids and possibly step in if he has to. I think we have a couple of younger guys that I'd like to see step in before both Smid and Schlemko. Morrison probably intrigues me the most out of kids who are the closest.

I think a deal will have to be made during training camp, hopefully BT can take full advantage of another GM and make another amazing deal.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I think the consensus is that Engo is better than Smiddy. In my mind, that means our top six are pretty cut and dry. The pairings themselves will be very interesting to say the least, but our best six D-men are Gio, Brodie, Dougie, Wides, Russell & Engelland.

Gio-Dougie
Russell-Wideman
Brodie -Engelland

Drools. But I digress.

The #7 and #8 and depth D-men are the question marks. Smiddy is too expensive to be a #7, so I foresee him getting moved. You can get a pick for him - he is still NHL capable.

I've said in previous threads as well, I would be ecstatic if Schlemko would be willing to be #7 and BT gives him a deal. He'd be a great guy to work with the kids in Stockton, and he'd be reliable enough for callups, and I daresay shootouts.

Brodie is going to play with Giordano, Hamilton or Wideman, or at least I hope he will. He is too great of a player to saddle him with a slug like Engelland unless out of absolute necessity. I would think Russell would be a much better partner for Engo, especially against lower competition.

[red sky]

Obligatory.

I love this pic so much. It looks like he's rag dolling one Canuck and bitch-slapping another one while he's yelling some obscenity at them LOL. Love it.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/im6H_8BphJAIihH3TQNdxIXhifw=/0x238:2086x1629/730x487/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46161210/GettyImages-470160106.0.jpg

Best twitter comment after the altercation:

Engelland fights 2 guys at the same time then looks like he should be on the cover of GQ

[Poe969]

Brodie and Engelland weren't that terrible, at least not in my eyes. I think they'll give everyone a try together but I think the Wideman - Russell pairing is just too good to split up. If Gio has great chemistry with Hamilton, they may pair together but I could also see Hamilton and Brodie pairing together and becoming our future 1-1 (they're both going to be #1 guys) top pairing. I think Gio would probably elevate Engelland's game a lot too.

Watch, just to screw with us BT will somehow manage to deal Mayson Raymond for Seth Jones or something.

[CroFlames]

I couldn't agree with....well everything you're saying. I think that's how the pairings end up and I think they all do well. Smid should be moved when he's healthy just because it doesn't make sense to have him as a 7. Unless there is another injury, there really isn't a need for him. As for Schlemko, I wouldn't mind if he was signed to mentor kids and possibly step in if he has to. I think we have a couple of younger guys that I'd like to see step in before both Smid and Schlemko. Morrison probably intrigues me the most out of kids who are the closest.

I think a deal will have to be made during training camp, hopefully BT can take full advantage of another GM and make another amazing deal.

You literally just agreed with everything.

[Poe969]

I forgot to say more. I couldn't agree more with....well everything. I'm in the exact same boat as you with what's going to happen

[Komskies]

Great work by InCoGnEto... nobody has yet filled the gap left by Cap Geek


General Fanager does a pretty decent job.

http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/calgary-flames

[CroFlames]

I forgot to say more. I couldn't agree more with....well everything. I'm in the exact same boat as you with what's going to happen

Haha classic mixup.

[DJones]

I would hate for Brodie to be stuck on the third pairing with Engellend. Just doesn't seem fair to him.

If anything switch Russell and Brodie

[Finger Cookin]

General Fanager does a pretty decent job.

http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/calgary-flames
Hockey's Cap is also very good. (https://hockeyscap.com/teams/flames)

[Poe969]

If Wideman and Russell can maintain the chemistry they had last year, you don't break them up, maybe you call it your third pairing but you don't break them up. I think they'll all get great chances to preform and put up numbers.

[CroFlames]

I would hate for Brodie to be stuck on the third pairing with Engellend. Just doesn't seem fair to him.

If anything switch Russell and Brodie

I think the group is so balanced you are basically going to have a first pairing then a 2A and 2B pairing.

There will likely be a special 1st and 2nd pairing for PP/PK as well, meaning the pairings will all be used in diff situations, relatively evenly.

[Locke]

I remember years ago when I was so excited because we were going to have Regehr and Phaneuf on the ice and then right after their shift Sarich and Bouwmeester were going to hop on, it was going to be awesome!

And it was not.

This though...this is going to be awesome.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I remember years ago when I was so excited because we were going to have Regehr and Phaneuf on the ice and then right after their shift Sarich and Bouwmeester were going to hop on, it was going to be awesome!

And it was not.

This though...this is going to be awesome.

Yeah, Regher and Phaneuf never worked for various reasons and Brent Sutter put Bouwmeester out with Butler. :bag:

[Poe969]

Last year it was awesome having Gio-Brodie then Russell-Wideman, this year it'll suck every time a pairing is out because that means there's 2 on the bench!

[Locke]

Yeah, Regher and Phaneuf never worked for various reasons and Brent Sutter put Bouwmeester out with Butler. :bag:

It was just a total failure all around.

[Locke]

Last year it was awesome having Gio-Brodie then Russell-Wideman, this year it'll suck every time a pairing is out because that means there's 2 on the bench!

I hope he rolls them.

Gio - Brodie - 22.5 mins
Hamilton - Russell - 22.5 mins
Wideman - Engelland - 15 Mins

Or some variation thereof.

[Enoch Root]

Brodie and Engelland weren't that terrible, at least not in my eyes. I think they'll give everyone a try together but I think the Wideman - Russell pairing is just too good to split up. If Gio has great chemistry with Hamilton, they may pair together but I could also see Hamilton and Brodie pairing together and becoming our future 1-1 (they're both going to be #1 guys) top pairing. I think Gio would probably elevate Engelland's game a lot too.

Watch, just to screw with us BT will somehow manage to deal Mayson Raymond for Seth Jones or something.

You think Russell/Wideman was 'just too good to split up' but you're more than willing to split Giordano/Brodie - the best pairing in the league - because 'Brodie and Engelland weren't that terrible'.

Okay then.

[Poe969]

If you read the whole post, it explains. If Gio and Hamilton have better chemistry then they get paired together. IF Hamilton and Brodie have better chemistry, they get paired together. I hope this explains it better, I could go on though. Essentially, you play the guys who have the best chemistry together.

[Enoch Root]

If you read the whole post, it explains. If Gio and Hamilton have better chemistry then they get paired together. IF Hamilton and Brodie have better chemistry, they get paired together. I hope this explains it better, I could go on though. Essentially, you play the guys who have the best chemistry together.

Let's try it again...

Giordano and Brodie were. the. best. pairing. in. the. league. last. year.

[Locke]

Let's try it again...

Giordano and Brodie were. the. best. pairing. in. the. league. last. year.

Yes, but now Hamilton is here. Maybe Brodie/Hamilton are even better. Or Gio/Hamilton.

Its isnt likely but it isnt impossible either.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, but now Hamilton is here. Maybe Brodie/Hamilton are even better. Or Gio/Hamilton.

Its isnt likely but it isnt impossible either.

Of course it's not impossible. I was simply pointing out his flawed logic.

[Poe969]

Let's try it again...

Giordano and Brodie were. the. best. pairing. in. the. league. last. year.

I highlighted a crucial area of your post since you seem to be confused. I don't plan on going back in time to "last.year." and changing things. I'm talking about this coming year. I don't know if you've noticed but the Calgary Flames were able to acquire promising young defenseman Doggie Hamilton. So, depending on who has the best chemistry "this.year." you play those players together. Now my reasoning is that Gio, Brodie and Hamilton have all shown that they are top pairing defensemen but that they can elevate the game of others. I guess I shouldn't have said the Russell-Wideman pairing is a lock but they played extremely well together last year, as did Gio and Brodie but you have to play Hamilton on the top pairing so he'll either play with Gio or Brodie unless there is no chemistry with either of them then you have to revisit every pairing.

So in short, you have to consider every pairing a possibility. Russell-Wideman have, IMO, a better chance at staying together because of their skill sets compared to the other 3 top pairing guys. I think it would be great if Hamilton-Brodie worked out well as it would be our top pairing in the future but how knows.

In short, I'm talking about this.year. not last.year.

[Poe969]

Also, Brodie has shown the more chemistry with Engelland than any other defenseman has so playing them together isn't that much of a stretch.

[saillias]

Let's try it again...

Giordano and Brodie were. the. best. pairing. in. the. league. last. year.

Arguable.

Their offensive production was #1 sure. Their puck-moving and transition game as well. But you'd have a hard time making a good argument that they were the best pairing at defending.

[Enoch Root]

Everyone is trying to come up with the best set of 3 pairings. I think we can look at it a different way.

Let's look at TOI:

Giordano 24-25
Brodie 24-25
Hamilton 24-25
Russell 18-20
Wideman 18-20

That leaves 5-12 minutes for the 6th Dman. Let's use 10 minutes for simple math. That means we can go with something like the following:

Eng/Tspoon/SMid - Hamilton: 10 minutes
Russell - Wideman: 18-20 minutes
Giordano - Brodie / Giordano - Hamilton / Brodie - Hamilton 30 -32 minutes

In other words, Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton should all be playing more than 20 minutes each, and can rotate around, depending on the situation, with Gio/Brodie as the primary pairing.

[Locke]

Also, Brodie has shown the more chemistry with Engelland than any other defenseman has so playing them together isn't that much of a stretch.

And hes young and in shape!

Gio - Brodie
Wideman- Russell
Brodie - Engelland
Hamilton - Gio

Perfect! Who needs 'Artley when I'm available??

[Enoch Root]

Arguable.

Their offensive production was #1 sure. Their puck-moving and transition game as well. But you'd have a hard time making a good argument that they were the best pairing at defending.

Check out their zone starts and quality of competition.

[Poe969]

That is probably the best way I've heard it explained. I think treating them all separately works the best and it actually takes into consideration special teams a lot more.

My God am I excited for this year to start even if it's just to watch the D.

[Poe969]

Everyone is trying to come up with the best set of 3 pairings. I think we can look at it a different way.

Let's look at TOI:

Giordano 24-25
Brodie 24-25
Hamilton 24-25
Russell 18-20
Wideman 18-20

That leaves 5-12 minutes for the 6th Dman. Let's use 10 minutes for simple math. That means we can go with something like the following:

Eng/Tspoon/SMid - Hamilton: 10 minutes
Russell - Wideman: 18-20 minutes
Giordano - Brodie / Giordano - Hamilton / Brodie - Hamilton 30 -32 minutes

In other words, Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton should all be playing more than 20 minutes each, and can rotate around, depending on the situation, with Gio/Brodie as the primary pairing.

This needs to be thanked a lot more.

[CroFlames]

Everyone is trying to come up with the best set of 3 pairings. I think we can look at it a different way.

Let's look at TOI:

Giordano 24-25
Brodie 24-25
Hamilton 24-25
Russell 18-20
Wideman 18-20

That leaves 5-12 minutes for the 6th Dman. Let's use 10 minutes for simple math. That means we can go with something like the following:

Eng/Tspoon/SMid - Hamilton: 10 minutes
Russell - Wideman: 18-20 minutes
Giordano - Brodie / Giordano - Hamilton / Brodie - Hamilton 30 -32 minutes

In other words, Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton should all be playing more than 20 minutes each, and can rotate around, depending on the situation, with Gio/Brodie as the primary pairing.

I think coaches try not rotating partners too much if they can help it. At least in my experience and what I can see on the surface level of the NHL.

I think Bob is going to want to settle into 3 pairings that work best. Then he'll have his primary and secondary pairings for PP/PK, and adjust through the year as necessary.

Rotating guys through the pairings can potentially ruin chemistry, flow and positive habits, especially now when you have six fully capable NHL D-men.

[Vulcan]

I think it's ridiculous that we can't think about breaking up Russell-Wideman.

they should be the first choice to move around.

[Poe969]

I could see Russell-Engelland being a good defensive tandem while Wideman and Hamilton could have a lot of high offense potential.

[Locke]

I could see Russell-Engelland being a good defensive tandem while Wideman and Hamilton could have a lot of high offense potential.

I think those two would get pinned in their own zone. Too similar and not enough balance.

[Finger Cookin]

Also, Brodie has shown the more chemistry with Engelland than any other defenseman has so playing them together isn't that much of a stretch.

It just seems fair to say that the pairing with Engelland on it is going to get the least ice time of the three. As such, pairing any of Giordano, Brodie, or Hamilton with Engelland means you're underutilizing Engelland's partner. Whichever of those three it is. Unless you're double shifting Engelland's partner, which in turn throws off the other pairings.

[Finger Cookin]

Everyone is trying to come up with the best set of 3 pairings. I think we can look at it a different way.

Let's look at TOI:

Giordano 24-25
Brodie 24-25
Hamilton 24-25
Russell 18-20
Wideman 18-20

That leaves 5-12 minutes for the 6th Dman. Let's use 10 minutes for simple math. That means we can go with something like the following:

Eng/Tspoon/SMid - Hamilton: 10 minutes
Russell - Wideman: 18-20 minutes
Giordano - Brodie / Giordano - Hamilton / Brodie - Hamilton 30 -32 minutes

In other words, Giordano, Brodie and Hamilton should all be playing more than 20 minutes each, and can rotate around, depending on the situation, with Gio/Brodie as the primary pairing.
No doubt Hartley has spent a lot of time and thought about a plan just like this, and can tweak it as needed depending who's on or off on any given night. It goes away from his tendency to keep pairs together like he has in his entire tenure here - but a plan like this best utilizes the talents of his top 5 defensemen. And this is really just an extension of juggling that needs to be done due to penalties anyway.

[codynw]

It's rare to have the luxury of 3 lefties and 3 righties. Since they can, I think it would make a lot of sense to have one of each per pairing.

Giordano / Hamilton
Brodie / Wideman
Russell / Engelland

Something like that.

[saillias]

Check out their zone starts and quality of competition.

I've generally seen them. Fancy hero graphs, yes they have the blue lines filling up the whole graph, it looks nice. And the dark blue bubbles on those other charts.

If these charts were the be all end all, Russell and Wideman would be out of the league and Hamilton would be a #1 D right now.

It's just one piece of the puzzle... When did analytics become THE authority on rating stuff?

[Enoch Root]

I've generally seen them. Fancy hero graphs, yes they have the blue lines filling up the whole graph, it looks nice. And the dark blue bubbles on those other charts.

If these charts were the be all end all, Russell and Wideman would be out of the league and Hamilton would be a #1 D right now.

It's just one piece of the puzzle... When did analytics become THE authority on rating stuff?

They're not. But you started this conversation by saying "But you'd have a hard time making a good argument that they were the best pairing at defending".

Every metric shows that they are in fact among the best at defending.

They faced pretty much the hardest competition, and had among the toughest zone starts. Yet they STILL dominated the toughest competition.

If you have other evidence that contradicts this, I would love to see it. But all evidence that I have seen supports that they are excellent at defending.

And you have presented zero evidence to support your assertion that they are not.

[Otto-matic]

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=778130

"It was good, it was positive. He looks really good," Treliving said during his media availability on Wednesday. "The injury is healing. It will be close to month from when he [was] seen to when he gets seen at training camp.

"As to whether he can participate, my sense right now is that everything is progressing well, he's not necessarily going to be ready for contact at training camp ... it was a positive report but we'll see where he is and what steps to take once we get to camp."

[420since1974]

Bob Hartley on Sportnet960 today:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-morning/bob-hartley-in-studio-with-boomer-and-pinder/

He seems to be against evening out the minutes among the D.
His Top 2 pairings will see the most ice-time by far.

To me, that means some combination of Brodie, Giordano, Hamilton, & Wideman for the Top 2 pairings which leave Russell - Engelland for the bottom pairing.

Right now, it appears that Smid will not be ready for contact at training camp, so I'd guess that one of Morrison, Nakladal, or Wotherspoon will be the 7th D to start the season.

[cannon7]

Wish Engelland wasn't the best option we had for Brodie. Engelland should be our #7, albeit a ridiculously overpaid one.

[Finger Cookin]

Bob Hartley on Sportnet960 today:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-morning/bob-hartley-in-studio-with-boomer-and-pinder/

He seems to be against evening out the minutes among the D.
His Top 2 pairings will see the most ice-time by far.

To me, that means some combination of Brodie, Giordano, Hamilton, & Wideman for the Top 2 pairings which leave Russell - Engelland for the bottom pairing.

Right now, it appears that Smid will not be ready for contact at training camp, so I'd guess that one of Morrison, Nakladal, or Wotherspoon will be the 7th D to start the season.

I could see something like Smid - Wideman or Wotherspoon - Wideman as the bottom pair as well. Toss up between Russell or Wideman for the third pair, and it might vary from game to game.

[GoJetsGo]

I've generally seen them. Fancy hero graphs, yes they have the blue lines filling up the whole graph, it looks nice. And the dark blue bubbles on those other charts.

If these charts were the be all end all, Russell and Wideman would be out of the league and Hamilton would be a #1 D right now.

It's just one piece of the puzzle... When did analytics become THE authority on rating stuff?

It's really a head-scratcher that you find this such a sticking point to argue.

The Norris has generally been given to the highest scoring d-man.

Suggesting Gio-Brodie were the regarded as one of (if not THE) best pairings in the league last year wasn't just because they were one dimensional. They got it done at both ends of the ice.

I wouldn't call them stalwarts in their own end, but they weren't as questionable back there as you're suggesting.

Both of them are above average in their own end, use smart decision making and active sticks. Gio's physical game is under-rated.

They've been called the best pairing in the league last year... because they were.

[CroFlames]

Wish Engelland wasn't the best option we had for Brodie. Engelland should be our #7, albeit a ridiculously overpaid one.

Still barking up that tree eh? It took Engelland a while to settle in, but he is a capable defenseman. Capable D-men get paid. Not only that, but he was UFA signing, and he was willing to play anywhere while the club developed it's prospects.

That was the price to get him, and he has earned his dough.

[FBI]

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh
Yeah pretty much this. He'll do, but we could do better. I'll be surprised if he finishes his contract with us. He performed admirably when called upon but that was mostly Brodie. He's such a stud, he could have a cinder block for a partner and not look half bad.

[GranteedEV]

that was mostly Brodie. He's such a stud, he could have basically had a cinder block for a partner and not look half bad.

Ahem.

[combustiblefuel]

Ahem.

Ya but that cinder block stepped up for Mark Giordano. With out him finding that extra gear Flames may have not made it into the platoffs at all.

[Caged Great]

I have a sneaking feeling that Kenney Morrison might steal the #4 spot in training camp

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Engelland

Might make the most sense. Morrison looked like a right handed version of Brodie last season in Adirondack and was the best guy at the development camp. That would also allow each pairing to have a left shooter and a right shooter, which would be perfect. If there are games where you need more physicality you could always throw Engelland in there instead of Morrison.

I think that if Smid is healthy that he might be the odd man out. Between Smid and Engelland, they both have the same role on the team but I would rather have Engelland due to him not being injury prone. The Flames would likely have to eat some $ to deal him, but some team could use a decent #6 for 2 seasons.

[GranteedEV]

I have a sneaking feeling that Kenney Morrison might steal the #4 spot in training camp

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Engelland

Might make the most sense. Morrison looked like a right handed version of Brodie last season in Adirondack and was the best guy at the development camp.

Okay... so how about

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Smid

Not saying Gio is a 2nd pairing Dman, just that the rookie can learn while playing with him. Plus Brodie continues his natural progression into Duncan Keith 2.0

[Oling_Roachinen]

Still barking up that tree eh? It took Engelland a while to settle in, but he is a capable defenseman. Capable D-men get paid. Not only that, but he was UFA signing, and he was willing to play anywhere while the club developed it's prospects.

That was the price to get him, and he has earned his dough.

The guy was a healthy scratch for the Penguins before getting an absurd contract. Remember it was reported he got 2.9M and everyone thought that was total over the three years and not per year?

At the time the Flames were below the cap floor, they appeared to need some sandpaper for the young players, and apparently Edmonton wanted him as well. The stars really aligned for the perfect opportunity for Engelland. I don't think this was a case of "capable d-men getting paid" and I don't think he's earned his dough either. It's nothing against Engelland as a person as I can't fault him for signing a 9M contract.

Many of the posters who rationalized the signing looked at it as a way to stay above the cap-floor while making assets like Wideman and Glencross available. No one had imagined that the Flames would be dealing close to the cap ceiling while Engelland was still signed, and I think that extends to not just posters but management. But a Norris-quality year from Giordano, the incredible exceeding of expectations by the top line of Hudler, Monahan and Gaudreau, and then getting a 6M dollar roster player for some picks changed the landscape of the team extremely quickly.

[Caged Great]

Okay... so how about

Brodie-Hamilton
Giordano-Morrison
Russell-Wideman
Smid

Not saying Gio is a 2nd pairing Dman, just that the rookie can learn while playing with him.

I'd try both and see which works better. Couldn't hurt. Either way, each of the top 2 pairings will have #1 D-men on it. I'd also try Spoon there instead of Morrison because he might have had a good offseason as well. Won't know until training camp starts.

Another eventuality if both Spoon and Morrison are ready and Kulak/Culkin are showing they aren't far behind is that Russell/Wideman may end up getting dealt. Having 14 million tied up in your 5-6-7-8 guys is too much. At least all of those contracts are up after next season.

[GranteedEV]

I'd try both and see which works better. Couldn't hurt. Either way, each of the top 2 pairings will have #1 D-men on it. I'd also try Spoon there instead of Morrison because he might have had a good offseason as well. Won't know until training camp starts.

Another eventuality if both Spoon and Morrison are ready and Kulak/Culkin are showing they aren't far behind is that Russell/Wideman may end up getting dealt. Having 14 million tied up in your 5-6-7-8 guys is too much. At least all of those contracts are up after next season.

Yes, clearing cap is prudent. Last year the Hawks won the cup playing Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Seabrook heavily and while Oduya was a bit of a contributor he wasn't exactly great and their bottom pairing was just being held together with paperclips and gum between Timonen, Cuminsky, Van Riemsdyk, and Rundblad.

I'm just not sure any of Spoon, or Smid, or Engelland fit Hartley's "vision". He said on that radio interview that "we don't believe in defensive defensemen" which kind of revealed that he probably wants a 60 minute onslaught of crazy pinches and unexpected stretch passes. Culkin/Kulak might develop a leg up on Spoon for that reason.

[Caged Great]

Yes, clearing cap is prudent. Last year the Hawks won the cup playing Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Seabrook heavily and while Oduya was a bit of a contributor he wasn't exactly great and their bottom pairing was just being held together with paperclips and gum between Timonen, Cuminsky, Van Riemsdyk, and Rundblad.

I'm just not sure any of Spoon, or Smid, or Engelland fit Hartley's "vision". He said on that radio interview that "we don't believe in defensive defensemen" which kind of revealed that he probably wants a 60 minute onslaught of crazy pinches and unexpected stretch passes. Culkin/Kulak might develop a leg up on Spoon for that reason.

And I don't blame him. The Flames have the horses up front in the top 9 to be able to attack in wave after wave after wave. That has the potential to really beat down the opposition. Turn over the puck and then it's an odd man rush back the other way. If Monahan, Bennett, Backlund and Stajan can win more than half the draws, that would help correct the Corsi problem very quickly.

I could see Kulak and Culkin leapfrogging Spoon as well and Andersson/Kylington nipping at their heels in a year or two. It's nice to have so much skill and depth at every position.

[heep223]

Every time the subject of Engelland comes up, I want to post that pic of him punching 2 Canucks in the face at the same time. Guy has earned every penny in my books.

[Strange Brew]

The guy was a healthy scratch for the Penguins before getting an absurd contract. Remember it was reported he got 2.9M and everyone thought that was total over the three years and not per year?

At the time the Flames were below the cap floor, they appeared to need some sandpaper for the young players, and apparently Edmonton wanted him as well. The stars really aligned for the perfect opportunity for Engelland. I don't think this was a case of "capable d-men getting paid" and I don't think he's earned his dough either. It's nothing against Engelland as a person as I can't fault him for signing a 9M contract.

Many of the posters who rationalized the signing looked at it as a way to stay above the cap-floor while making assets like Wideman and Glencross available. No one had imagined that the Flames would be dealing close to the cap ceiling while Engelland was still signed, and I think that extends to not just posters but management. But a Norris-quality year from Giordano, the incredible exceeding of expectations by the top line of Hudler, Monahan and Gaudreau, and then getting a 6M dollar roster player for some picks changed the landscape of the team extremely quickly.

I pretty much agree with you here. Engelland has been a useful player to be sure. He stepped up big time when Gio went down and I loved it when he fought 2 Canucks but he is still wildly overpaid as a #6/7 defenseman. Some have speculated he got the big money to help the team get to the cap floor but if so that was a bad decision. You don't hand out a 3 year contract to do that.
The guy may have intangibles that have contributed to the culture shift and if so that is hard to put a price on.
But sometimes you just have to look at the bottom line. The Flames are a cap team now and are coming off a 16th place season. They look to be on the upswing but BT will have to start shedding bad contracts (some he inherited and some he signed) in order to continue to improve and sign players that need to be signed.

[jayswin]

I think that if Smid is healthy that he might be the odd man out. Between Smid and Engelland, they both have the same role on the team but I would rather have Engelland due to him not being injury prone. The Flames would likely have to eat some $ to deal him, but some team could use a decent #6 for 2 seasons.

Not likely at all, imo. It would be more than retaining salary, we would likely have to take a bad contract back, which with our roster and cap situation would render trading him pretty useless.

I don't see any teams looking at a player who was just about out of the league due to concussion problems taking a risk on a $3/mil2yr 6/7th defenseman unless there is equal or even more "problem" salary going the other way.

[SportsJunky]

Every time the subject of Engelland comes up, I want to post that pic of him punching 2 Canucks in the face at the same time. Guy has earned every penny in my books.

I was just thinking the same thing before I read your post. That moment in the playoffs erased all the cringey moments I had watching him play during the season. I think they need a guy like Engelland for the time being.

[GranteedEV]

I could see Kulak and Culkin leapfrogging Spoon as well and Andersson/Kylington nipping at their heels in a year or two. It's nice to have so much skill and depth at every position.

It's crazy to think how exciting this conversation is - yet we forgot to mention Brandon Hickey, who is probably a better prospect than Morrison, Kulak, or Culkin :eek:

Oh, and Rafikov, who's playing KHL now as a 20 year old.

Smid, Engelland, Russell, and Wideman have to be looking at the rear-view mirror with their foot on the gas pedal.

[Locke]

As soon as Engelland got bigger minutes his play did a 180, it was night and day. Even he said so in an interview, he said its tough to get any kind of consistency going with only 10-12 minutes a night.

Sure, he had Brodie as a partner and that has to be taken into account, but he is a capable defenceman that we'll need if we want to make any noise in the playoffs.

[Gaskal]

I understand that Engelland stepped up big after Gio's injury and that he was a serviceable top 4 defenceman for that period when paired with Brodie, but regardless... if Nakladal, Wilson, or Morrison look better in training camp, then Hartley gives them the spot. Of course he could have an impressive showing and play up to the level of his contract, but that's Deryk's best-case scenario. And I believe it's quite likely that one of those challengers steps up and takes his spot.

With Smid probably still being on the shelf due to injury, I'm thinking the final D-pairings shake up as:

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Wilson (Anyone a Seahawks fan?)
Engelland

[Vulcan]

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Wideman
Russell - Wilson (Anyone a Seahawks fan?)
Engelland When playing the ducks, kings
Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Engelland
Wilson - Wideman
Russell

(and yeah)

[AcGold]

Yeah I'm still not sold on Engelland as #6 even though he stepped it up last year.. I think his partner was always carrying him at that time. I mean he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play. meh

Wrong dude, Engellands physical presence is huge against the bigger western teams. He's the only one that can slow down Perry, Getzlaf etc.

Yes Engelland has holes in his game but he's the only competent player that can weather the storm against the 220+ pounders. Bollig can as well but he has marginal contributions whereas Engelland can keep his head above water against any line. Maybe he won't be sending the breakout passes and lighting up the scoreboard but he'll be stripping Getzlaf of the puck in the corner for us and clearing the crease in the playoffs.

You think we'd have made the playoffs had Wotherspoon been in Engellands spot? I doubt it highly, he stepped up huge when we needed it. Physical play meh? Physical play is what drives the playoffs.

[FBI]

I didn't mean physical play = meh, I meant he excels at chipping it off the boards, icing the puck, and physical play/fighting.
Overall = meh to me.
I certainly appreciate his physical play but nothing else.

[AcGold]

Physical play is so vague a term it's dismissive. He uses his body to stop the cycle and steal the puck, he also defends our goalie and keeps the opposition honest. Several areas where we are lacking and have been lacking in the past. He played top line minutes and didn't miss a beat, what else should he be doing?

I'd bet money Hartley has him speeding up his breakout passes and working on his offensive contributions too.

[FBI]

>He played top line minutes and didn't miss a beat.

Will agree he filled in admirably but I still am not a fan and will be happy when a young guy supplants him. I very much doubt he will suddenly become a great breakout passer. IMO Brodie very much carried him.

[ricardodw]

Physical play is so vague a term it's dismissive. He uses his body to stop the cycle and steal the puck, he also defends our goalie and keeps the opposition honest. Several areas where we are lacking and have been lacking in the past. He played top line minutes and didn't miss a beat, what else should he be doing?

I'd bet money Hartley has him speeding up his breakout passes and working on his offensive contributions too.

I think that maybe AC should put together a highlight package of Kipper 2012-13.

He ended up with a save % of .884 and a GA of 3.44. He was basically run into retirement.

There were 2-3 times a game when Kipper was knocked over in the crease and Boumeester, Butler, Smith, Brodie, and even Gio would be looking in the corners or behind the net for a possible loose puck.


When Wideman is your toughest crease clearer you could have a Carey Price in goal and he would start flinching and letting in dirty goals.


Looking at the Flames as a likely playoff team this year how would you play them?
I know I would be trying to force the Flames D to engage physically by crashing the crease. Not as easy to make these great breakout passes when you are battling for space in the crease protecting your goalie.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I have a sneaking feeling that Kenney Morrison might steal the #4 spot in training camp


The chances of that happening are slim to none IMO. He might steal the #7 spot. I'd bet a large sum of money that he has no chance at a top 4 role out of training camp unless we have injuries to every single member of our top 4. It's kind of crazy talk frankly. He hasn't even played an NHL game and you think he can beat out multiple guys who played top 4 on one of the better defences in the NHL last year? Crazy talk.

[Caged Great]

The chances of that happening are slim to none IMO. He might steal the #7 spot. I'd bet a large sum of money that he has no chance at a top 4 role out of training camp unless we have injuries to every single member of our top 4. It's kind of crazy talk frankly. He hasn't even played an NHL game and you think he can beat out multiple guys who played top 4 on one of the better defences in the NHL last year? Crazy talk.

Having watched Morrison multiple times in the past few months since the Flames acquired him, he is very very close to being ready for full time NHL action. If he doesn't start with the Flames, he'll likely take a spot by January or be the first callup if injuries strike before hand. Very similar style of D-man as Brodie.

There is a good reason why you would slot him as the #4 and it has nothing to do with Morrison. Keeping Russell and Wideman together. That is a pairing that worked rather effectively together last year. Morrison in that scenario would be the #4, but would be the 6th best defenseman and would be paired with a #1 defenseman (Calgary has 3 of them) allowing there to be balance and sheltering him to an extent. If he does have significant growing pains you could always sub Engelland into the #4 spot instead, but that wouldn't likely even be a problem because he probably wouldn't make the team out of the gate if he does struggle.

If you split Russell and Wideman, that might create more problems as Russell was effective at covering for Wideman and the new partner for Wideman might not be as able to cover his defensive lapses. If you partner Wideman and Engelland, the current 5th and 6th best defenders, that would be terrible due to their lack of combined foot speed. Chemistry does matter. Having 3 left shooters with 3 right shooters is a formation that would be beneficial as well.

[Vulcan]

If you split Russell and Wideman

Oh no, I'm starting to regret getting Hamilton if it's going to cause this kind of problem.:bag:

[sureLoss]

Wes Gilbertson @SUNGilbertson
#Flames D Ladislav Smid (neck) has yet to be cleared for contact. Hoping for that clearance in mid-October.

[dammage79]

Poor guy. Getting close but right now it still must feel so far away. No camp means he won't be ready until mid november if he is clear mid October.

[Locke]

I keep forgetting about Smid and thinking our top 7 is set.

I mean, the top 6 is pretty obvious.

[mrdonkey]

I keep forgetting about Smid and thinking our top 7 is set.



I mean, the top 6 is pretty obvious.


I don't know, I think if Ryan Wilson can stay healthy he may surprise people.

[Locke]

Just got a score update saying that hes been cleared for contact.

[Finger Cookin]

Saw the same notice. It'll be interesting to see if the rest of camp is enough to get him ready for opening night.

[Itse]

He was a bottom pairing player before the injury, so who knowa if he can still be effective enough to earn a spot.

[kyuss275]

Saw the same notice. It'll be interesting to see if the rest of camp is enough to get him ready for opening night.

Probably not enough time for opening night. I do however think they will give the 7Th/pressbox dman position to him. That way he can practice with the team until he is up to speed. Looks like there is only one d position left until Brodie comes back from injury.

[Poe969]

Smid was slow. He was a beat up version of England but England seemed to have a bit more to his game and was able to elevate his game last year when Gio went down. Management loves England and he seems like he's a good team guy, I'm willing to bet he's #6 on the back end and even ends up playing with Brodie this year. With our D being the way it is, I don't see a place for Smid at all unless the team sustains multiple injuries all at the same time.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Smid is either traded or waived before the season starts. I just don't see him having a spot on this team with the depth it has.

[kyuss275]

Smid was slow. He was a beat up version of England but England seemed to have a bit more to his game and was able to elevate his game last year when Gio went down. Management loves England and he seems like he's a good team guy, I'm willing to bet he's #6 on the back end and even ends up playing with Brodie this year. With our D being the way it is, I don't see a place for Smid at all unless the team sustains multiple injuries all at the same time.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Smid is either traded or waived before the season starts. I just don't see him having a spot on this team with the depth it has.


Pretty much agree with most of what you posted. However i don't see any team trading for Smid right now. Maybe when/if he gets some games under his belt. I also don't see them waiving him. He just came back from a brutal injury. There is no problem having him in the pressbox. There was no chance the flames were going to have a youngster in the pressbox for long extended periods of time.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

They aren't going to trade or waive him until they see what he can offer once 100% healthy. That would be disrespectful to not even allow him the opportunity to compete for a regular roster spot. If he doesn't measure up, then you can discuss moving him along, but he was a warrior for many years and deserves enough respect to at least put him in game action for a couple weeks to see if he can offer something to the team.

[Poe969]

True, but I don't think him sitting in the press box really helps him at all. It's too bad he can't be send down for a reconditioning stint or something just so he can get some games under his belt and get up to speed. No one really knows how he'll do in an actual game at this point. If they can find a way to not have Smid, I think Willson would make a better #7 guy.

[Poe969]

They aren't going to trade or waive him until they see what he can offer once 100% healthy. That would be disrespectful to not even allow him the opportunity to compete for a regular roster spot. If he doesn't measure up, then you can discuss moving him along, but he was a warrior for many years and deserves enough respect to at least put him in game action for a couple weeks to see if he can offer something to the team.

I kind of agree with this because I think he needs to get up to game speed but I don't think the Flames should have to put him in actual meaningful games to find out but if there's no other way then yes they do have to find out how he plays by getting him in some games. At the same time, I don't think he "deserves" to be given a spot on the team without earning it. I know he was a warrior but at the same time, Raymond was a goal scorer. Right now is what matters. I do thin Smid deserves a chance but I don't think the Flames should have to make any kind of sacrifice to give him that chance and if you have a different player who's playing well, it's not right to sit him in favour of finding out just what Smid can do.

It's complicated to say the least but I'm really glad none of us have the final say. I'm sure BT will find a way to not only make this work, but to make this work out for both Smid and the Flames.

[GioforPM]

Smid when he first came to Calgary > any of the competitors for his spot. Not so sure about Smid at the time he got injured. He was pretty slow, and not a complement to Engelland's also slow style.

So it really depends on his fitness and game speed IMO.

[Enoch Root]

and how much that injury was actually affecting his play.

He could be the Smid of 3 years ago, or he could be the Smid of last year - we won't know until we see him out there

[killer_carlson]

Agreed

A healthy Smid is a great bottom pairing guy. Nasty, physical, shut down, good on the PK.

A broken Smid is a warrior, but likely gets passed by others on the depth chart.

[neo45]

How many games can be play in the minors on a conditioning stint?

[GioforPM]

How many games can be play in the minors on a conditioning stint?

I think if they want him in Stockton he goes through waivers easily (salary being the issue).

[CalgaryFan1988]

How many games can be play in the minors on a conditioning stint?

Pretty sure it's 2 weeks, regardless of games played.

[cannon7]

Gonna be interesting to see what the Flames do if Smid is indeed ready in mid-October. Maybe he ends up lining up on Brodie's left side? Maybe he gets showcased there for a potential trade? Looks like there'll be a short window for guys like Wilson (assuming he's signed), Wotherspoon and Kulak to prove they belong on this blueline. Smid is arguably too expensive to play on the third pairing, and if he is indeed healthy, I'm sure a team out there would be interested. Maybe a Smid+Raymond package and take a single player in return to balance out the cap hit. Not sure who I'd target though.

[codynw]

I think if they want him in Stockton he goes through waivers easily (salary being the issue).

He doesn't need to be placed on waivers for a conditioning stint.

[GioforPM]

He doesn't need to be placed on waivers for a conditioning stint.

I know - my point is I think they could safely waive him because of his salary and he could play all the games they want.

[GranteedEV]

He doesn't need to be placed on waivers for a conditioning stint.

He does need to be on the roster as one of our 23 NHLers though.

[sureLoss]

Wes Gilbertson @SUNGilbertson
Today was the date that Ladislav Smid's surgeon had pegged for full clearance. #Flames defenceman feels he is "as ready as I can be."