Countdown Poll - Flames GMs Rd2

[Bingo]

Results:

1. Cliff Fletcher 86% (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=148582)

[Strange Brew]

What a list. Really can't vote for BT yet. Although unlike others on here, he has yet to perform the massive screw up.

Guess I am voting Darryl and holding my nose about the week of insanity. And very pedestrian drafts.

[Bourque's Twin]

Kipper might be the best trade in Flames history. For that I have to give Sutter my vote.

[JiriHrdina]

Coates

[_Q_]

Sutter had 3 or 4 good trades (Kipper, Tanguay, Cammalleri and possibly one more), but he also drafted poorly, hired terrible coaches, signed players to ridiculous contracts that put this team in cap jail on top of his week of insanity.

There's no way in hell Sutter should be close to the top of this list. I went with Treliving because frankly he hasn't had enough time to screw up this team as badly as the other guys on the list. So far he has drafted decently (maybe too early to tell), signed players to good contracts, made the Hamilton deal and most importantly didn't come in and "put his stamp on the team" by trading away core pieces or firing Hartley.

[Caged Great]

You have a GM that traded very well (save 1 week) but couldn't draft worth a damn, and another GM that couldn't trade worth a damn but drafted a lot of talent on the roster.

I'd have to give the edge to Feaster because the Flames success will be longer due to his efforts than what it was under DS.

Treliving hasn't done much yet to get a read. In a year, Tree might be #2 on the list behind Fletcher. Right now though it's too soon to tell.

[Fire]

Sutter and Feaster are two guys that will never again be a GM in the NHL because of their past performance. Not sure why they're getting all these votes.

I know it's early but Treliving is my vote.

[_Q_]

Sutter and Feaster are two guys that will never again be a GM in the NHL because of their past performance. Not sure why they're getting all these votes.

I know it's early but Treliving is my vote.

True, but say you're the owner of a new NHL franchise and those two are your only options, I'd pick Feaster 10 times out of 10. Sutter was atrocious as a GM.

[jg13]

I'll take the guy the guy that has yet to do anything wrong in a short period of time over a GM that can't trade or a GM that can't draft.

Mr Treliving you have my vote

[transplant99]

True, but say you're the owner of a new NHL franchise and those two are your only options, I'd pick Feaster 10 times out of 10. Sutter was atrocious as a GM.



Yeah...except for that time when he GM'd his team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals.

[Vulcan]

You have a GM that traded very well (save 1 week) but couldn't draft worth a damn, and another GM that couldn't trade worth a damn but drafted a lot of talent on the roster.

I'd have to give the edge to Feaster because the Flames success will be longer due to his efforts than what it was under DS.

Treliving hasn't done much yet to get a read. In a year, Tree might be #2 on the list behind Fletcher. Right now though it's too soon to tell.

Feaster never made any of the draft picks, so if that is his best quality, it ain't saying much.

[Mister Yamoto]

Yeah...except for that time when he GM'd his team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals.

That season he traded for Kiprusoff, Nieminen, Nilsson and Simon without giving up a 1st, a blue chip prospect or a roster player. Amazing.

When Sutter came in the Flames were often playing for crowds of less than 12,000 and there were rumours of the team leaving. He put the Calgary Flames back on the map.

[getbak]

It says a lot about this team's history that this is such a hard choice at the #2 spot, and not because they were all so good.

The Flames have only won a playoff series under the leadership of Fletcher, Sutter, and Treliving.


When Darryl had been on the job as long as Treliving has, the Flames had a Stanley Cup Finals appearance under their belt, and a future Norris Trophy nominee waiting to join the team.

The end of his tenure wasn't as good as the beginning, but the beginning was pretty damned good. I guess Darryl gets my vote here.

D_aQupiaCSA

[Calgary4LIfe]

Sutter very easily for me.

One very terrible week aside, I think he did very well. Looking at when his tenure started, and when it stopped, two things can be said:

1) He made the SCFs
2) The team was a much more talented one than when he first took over.

Now, the biggest 'con' people have (other than the 'one-week of madness' trip) was his drafting. Well, let's examine this a bit more closely.

My argument has always been one of "It is difficult to measure drafting by a GM with the start and the stop of any GM's tenure". Why? Because GMs have to make corrections in their draft philosophy, hire and learn to trust (or not) the scouting staff, etc. I think it isn't particularly easy to just look at the tenure of a GM as the beginning and end date. One has to look at the trajectory before and after the GM's tenure.

When Darryl took over, the scouting staff was tiny. The team was sharing an AHL affiliate (IIRC). The drafting and development program had already experienced massive cuts and had already become one of the smallest in the NHL - a far cry from being one of the better programs in the 80's. Remember, these were the 'terrible 90's' that Canadian teams had the displeasure of working within.

Well, Sutter came in and encouraged management to increase the scouting budget and hire more scouts. He also convinced them to have their own AHL franchise to control for player development. Now, remember, Darryl was a rookie GM - he didn't have the advantage of having relationships with existing scouts.

So, drafting was atrocious. However, it did start improving. There are various players on the Flames today that are Sutter-players - Giordano, Backlund, Brodie, Bouma and Ferland (if he makes the team - which I personally expect him to do). The drafting philosophy became established under Sutter (just search a Todd Button interview where he was stating how the philosophy of 'High Hockey IQ' and 'Character' became important, and he mentioned the 2008 draft as the turning point).

Yes, Sutter made a point to draft the 'big western Canadian kids' - but one has to look as to why. Remember, the scouting staff was small and under-funded as compared to most teams. They simply didn't have enough eyes everywhere. However, Sutter did take a number of Euros (Backlund, Taratukhin, Erixon, etc) as well as some guys from the OHL (Brodie), etc. None of these guys were "Sutter-type" guys that people expect - they were all for the most part more skill than brawn. People just fixate on the "Pelechs" that he did pick.

Another reason why he wanted to select players from the WHL was that he felt it was easier to retain that talent at a good cost. They were more likely to have pride wearing the Flaming C, and would be less likely to leave as FAs or hold-out. Though people may disagree on the extent to which this actually benefits the Flames, there must be some measurable benefit.

I think Sutter had some absolute 'magic' trades. Definitely had a few misses, but definitely had some magic trades. People do fault him on constantly trading away 2nd round picks (and during his tenure, the Flames were without a 1st round pick only once - and that was his attempt to finally address the '1st line center' hole which, in hindsight, obviously didn't work out). However, 2nd round picks - though valuable - weren't exactly valuable on the Flames. What I mean is that due to being a smaller-scouting team (which he was revamping), those 2nd round picks would have had lower than average percentages of working out for the Flames. He brought guys in like Bourque (who was a very, very good player for a number of seasons) and Kipper with those 2nd rounders.

I don't really fault him for the trades - I think he was a strong trading GM. I don't fault him for the UFA signings - he got some high-profile UFAs. I don't even fault him for the drafting and development program (which was terrible when he took over, but was definitely better by the time he left).

What do I fault him on?

The one glaring - and to me, was his single biggest fault as a GM - was his coaching selections.

Playfair was obviously not ready to handle an NHL team - at least not a Veteran-laden team. Keenan was already semi-retired and did nothing at all to 'correct' anything at all that was wrong with the Flames. Brent Sutter was great in the media, but (to me) constantly appeared to be trying to fit square pegs in round holes over and over again instead of trying to adapt any strategies to make use of the Flames' strengths.

Another fault - and this is a tough one to really get any insight on - was Sutter succumbing to the 'pressure to win'. The team did need to be rebuilt, and it just wasn't happening. Now, I don't know if the ownership group wouldn't support a rebuild, so I can't firmly stamp this fault square on Sutter's shoulders'. He may indeed have argued for a rebuild. Who knows? Do I think so? No, I don't think he argued for one, but I do think he was timing for that possibility with how the contracts were at the time.

I do think that he left the Flames 'rebuild ready' in a way - the drafting and development program was essentially in place, and I really do believe that if he didn't do a good job in those areas, Calgary's rebuild would probably be as bungled as that of the Oilers'. Though there were some big contracts to get rid of, etc., those departments were definitely ready for the rebuild challenge as evidenced by how many good late picks there were through the end of Sutter's tenure and into the official rebuild. Oilers were not, and fell (and keep falling) on their faces.

All in all, I thought Sutter's first stab as a GM was extremely successful. Mistakes? Heck ya. Did the Flames have grounds in replacing him? I think so - I think GMs sometimes just need a change to get their heads screwed on straight again. I do think he did do a good job when you view his entire body of work (at least, when you view the things we at least have visibility on). I bet he gets another crack at the position somewhere else eventually.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Treliving for sure. Tireless worker, sensible, and a good communicator. He will end up neck and neck with Fletcher within 3 years. Each of his moves so far has improved our asset base. Glencross for 2 picks, Baertschi for 2nd, Hamilton, reasonable term and amount contracts. Each move very calculated. In Tre We Trust!

[Frank MetaMusil]

Sutter had 3 or 4 good trades (Kipper, Tanguay, Cammalleri and possibly one more), but he also drafted poorly, hired terrible coaches, signed players to ridiculous contracts that put this team in cap jail on top of his week of insanity.

There's no way in hell Sutter should be close to the top of this list. I went with Treliving because frankly he hasn't had enough time to screw up this team as badly as the other guys on the list. So far he has drafted decently (maybe too early to tell), signed players to good contracts, made the Hamilton deal and most importantly didn't come in and "put his stamp on the team" by trading away core pieces or firing Hartley.

100% agree. Darryl's cap mismanagement also had the Flames icing just 15 skaters for multiple games down the stretch in 2009.

Hiring Brent was a terrible decision, as was Keenan (despite him making the playoffs in both seasons as HC)

His obsession with Jokinen and refusal to admit he didn't work out, "big game hunting" with Bouwmeester, letting Cammalleri walk after a 39 goal season, trading Prust for Kotalik/Higgins, and who can forget picking up Steve Staios :bag:

[Psytic]

The team was garbage when Sutter took over and became an actual cup contender under his tenure. He looked like a genius when he managed to land Bouwmeester and Jokinen, until they didnt pan out. If those guys had actually lived up to their potential he would of looked like a magician.

For all we know maybe Dougie ####s the bed and Gio spends half the season on IR again next year and the Flames become a perpetual first round out. One or two big names that don't work out can make or break the team at this stage. It all looks like roses right now but its to early to tell if Treliving will be more successful. I think he came in with more flexibility and higher draft picks to work with however so his job is a little easier than Sutters was.

[Robbob]

the problem with Sutter is his list of positives is almost equal to the negatives. His one saving grace was the kipper trade.

Coates had to deal in a very difficult environment and managed to get a decent return when his back was against the wall.

It is sad that a GM going into his second season (probably only on the payroll for 400 days) is legitimately in the conversation.

[TX_Flame]

BT. I know it's early in his tenure, but I have to vote for him by default. The rest are such screw ups.

[Robo]

sutter left this team a mess can't believe he is leading in votes left us in cap hell, with to many vets and handed out NTC like candy it took feaster years to clean up the roster... I voted for BT though because feaster had too many public embarassments and sucked at trading

[getbak]

100% agree. Darryl's cap mismanagement also had the Flames icing just 15 skaters for multiple games down the stretch in 2009.
There were a lot of problems with that 2009 team, but you can't really blame him for that situation.

That was all about the wording in the CBA where you can't use LTIR space the replace players who are going to miss less than 10 regular season games. If a player suffers a season-ending injury with 9 games left in the season, you can't put him on long-term injury reserve and replace his salary.

No one could have predicted that the Flames would lose three of their top defencemen, all with less than 10 games remaining. If any one of them had been injured with 10 or more games remaining, there wouldn't have been a problem.

I guess Sutter could have anticipated the problem and left himself a bigger cushion under the cap, but then if those injuries don't happen (and they almost never do), he would have been criticized for leaving too much space.


The League changed the CBA to add the Roster Emergency clause after the Flames got stuck there. It could have happened to any team, the Flames just happened to be the unfortunate team that it happened to first.

[getbak]

Interesting to see who put together the only two teams to have any playoff success since Fletcher left (all players who played at least one playoff game or a significant number of regular season games, and were still members of the team at the end of the season).


2003-04

RISEBROUGH (2 players)
Drafted

Clark
Gauthier


COATES (5 players)
Drafted

Lydman
Saprykin

Traded

Iginla
Regehr

Signed

Montador


BUTTON (12 players)
Drafted

Kobasew
Lombardi

Traded

Commodore
Conroy
Donovan
Ference
Leopold
McAmmond
Turek
Yelle

Signed

Gelinas
Lowry


SUTTER (8 players)
Traded

Kiprusoff
Nieminen
Nilson
Reinprecht
Simon
Warrener

Signed

Evans
Oliwa





2014-15

SUTTER (6 players)
Drafted

Backlund
Bouma
Brodie
Ferland

Traded

Stajan

Signed

Giordano


FEASTER (13 players)
Drafted

Gaudreau
Granlund
Monahan
Wotherspoon

Traded

Byron
Colborne
Jones
Ramo
Russell
Smid

Signed

Hudler
Jooris
Wideman


BURKE (1 player)
Signed

Wolf (signing was announced after Treliving's hiring, but all indications were that the deal was done long before)


TRELIVING (9 players)
Drafted

Bennett

Traded

Bollig
Shore

Signed

Diaz
Engelland
Hiller
Potter
Raymond

Claimed

Schlemko

[jayswin]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

really shows Feaster's fingerprints on our current line-up. I knew it was big, but hadn't looked at it listed out like that before.

Wow.

[Jacks]

Now, the biggest 'con' people have (other than the 'one-week of madness' trip) was his drafting. Well, let's examine this a bit more closely.

My argument has always been one of "It is difficult to measure drafting by a GM with the start and the stop of any GM's tenure". Why? Because GMs have to make corrections in their draft philosophy, hire and learn to trust (or not) the scouting staff, etc. I think it isn't particularly easy to just look at the tenure of a GM as the beginning and end date. One has to look at the trajectory before and after the GM's tenure.
I see all the time where people say that Sutter improved our drafting but the fact is that his drafting sucked really bad. Maybe he left things improved in the end but he crapped the bed while he was actually picking players.

Darryl Sutter April 11, 2003 – December 28, 2010
Notable draft picks (200 games played)
2003 Dion Phaneuf
2004 Brandon Prust Dustin Boyd Adam Pardy
2005 None
2006 None
(100 games played)
2007 Mikael Backlund Keith Aulie
2008 Lance Bouma TJ Brodie
(50 games played)
2009 Tim Erixon
(Too soon to tell)
2010 Bill Arnold Micheal Ferland

That is downright horrific for 8 drafts.

Treliving for sure. Tireless worker, sensible, and a good communicator. He will end up neck and neck with Fletcher within 3 years. Each of his moves so far has improved our asset base. Glencross for 2 picks, Baertschi for 2nd, Hamilton, reasonable term and amount contracts. Each move very calculated. In Tre We Trust!
Recently he has been great but you can't ignore his first moves when taking over. While it hasn't hurt the team (yet) Raymond, Setoguchi, Bollig and arguably Engelland have been bad deals. He also inherited a great prospect base, almost no bad contracts (SOB but his cap hit would have helped reach the floor) and some great vets on great deals.

[Vulcan]

I see all the time where people say that Sutter improved our drafting but the fact is that his drafting sucked really bad. Maybe he left things improved in the end but he crapped the bed while he was actually picking players.

Darryl Sutter April 11, 2003 – December 28, 2010
Notable draft picks (200 games played)
2003 Dion Phaneuf
2004 Brandon Prust Dustin Boyd Adam Pardy
2005 None
2006 None
(100 games played)
2007 Mikael Backlund Keith Aulie
2008 Lance Bouma TJ Brodie
(50 games played)
2009 Tim Erixon
(Too soon to tell)
2010 Bill Arnold Micheal Ferland

That is downright horrific for 8 drafts.


Recently he has been great but you can't ignore his first moves when taking over. While it hasn't hurt the team (yet) Raymond, Setoguchi, Bollig and arguably Engelland have been bad deals. He also inherited a great prospect base, almost no bad contracts (SOB but his cap hit would have helped reach the floor) and some great vets on great deals.

I don't know how it compares to other teams during the same time period but considering that it's good if one or two prospects make the team each year, it's not bad. You should also throw in Giordano and Ryan Wilson although they weren't drafted, they were signed by Sutter out of junior.

Also as has been mentioned he traded 2nd round picks for players who were very useful while the normal 2nd round pick is lucky to make the NHL.

To me he was always playing a catch up game in that he didn't have the player resources to build a solid foundation, so he needed to trade to make up the deficiencies while needing to make the playoffs.

Treliving has come into a much better situation as the expectations from ownership and fans was very low while he has a fine minor league system and scouting organization which I give credit to Sutter for establishing. I'm not saying Treliving is only lucky, he's made some good moves as well.

[dissentowner]

Hard to pick here, all I can say for sure is PMM needs to give his head a shake for that 1 vote.

[transplant99]

Happy Birthday to Cliff Fletcher who is 80 years young today!

[Matata]

Voted Sutter and instantly regretted it, 'Sutter the Coach' is the good one.

[killer_carlson]

Sutter the coach/gm brought accountability and respectability back to the franchise when it was at its darkest time.

[killer_carlson]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

really shows Feaster's fingerprints on our current line-up. I knew it was big, but hadn't looked at it listed out like that before.

Wow.

That lineup doesnt include Harley et al either.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Sutter very easily for me.

One very terrible week aside, I think he did very well. Looking at when his tenure started, and when it stopped, two things can be said:

1) He made the SCFs
2) The team was a much more talented one than when he first took over.

Now, the biggest 'con' people have (other than the 'one-week of madness' trip) was his drafting. Well, let's examine this a bit more closely.

My argument has always been one of "It is difficult to measure drafting by a GM with the start and the stop of any GM's tenure". Why? Because GMs have to make corrections in their draft philosophy, hire and learn to trust (or not) the scouting staff, etc. I think it isn't particularly easy to just look at the tenure of a GM as the beginning and end date. One has to look at the trajectory before and after the GM's tenure.

When Darryl took over, the scouting staff was tiny. The team was sharing an AHL affiliate (IIRC). The drafting and development program had already experienced massive cuts and had already become one of the smallest in the NHL - a far cry from being one of the better programs in the 80's. Remember, these were the 'terrible 90's' that Canadian teams had the displeasure of working within.

Well, Sutter came in and encouraged management to increase the scouting budget and hire more scouts. He also convinced them to have their own AHL franchise to control for player development. Now, remember, Darryl was a rookie GM - he didn't have the advantage of having relationships with existing scouts.

So, drafting was atrocious. However, it did start improving. There are various players on the Flames today that are Sutter-players - Giordano, Backlund, Brodie, Bouma and Ferland (if he makes the team - which I personally expect him to do). The drafting philosophy became established under Sutter (just search a Todd Button interview where he was stating how the philosophy of 'High Hockey IQ' and 'Character' became important, and he mentioned the 2008 draft as the turning point).

Yes, Sutter made a point to draft the 'big western Canadian kids' - but one has to look as to why. Remember, the scouting staff was small and under-funded as compared to most teams. They simply didn't have enough eyes everywhere. However, Sutter did take a number of Euros (Backlund, Taratukhin, Erixon, etc) as well as some guys from the OHL (Brodie), etc. None of these guys were "Sutter-type" guys that people expect - they were all for the most part more skill than brawn. People just fixate on the "Pelechs" that he did pick.

Another reason why he wanted to select players from the WHL was that he felt it was easier to retain that talent at a good cost. They were more likely to have pride wearing the Flaming C, and would be less likely to leave as FAs or hold-out. Though people may disagree on the extent to which this actually benefits the Flames, there must be some measurable benefit.

I think Sutter had some absolute 'magic' trades. Definitely had a few misses, but definitely had some magic trades. People do fault him on constantly trading away 2nd round picks (and during his tenure, the Flames were without a 1st round pick only once - and that was his attempt to finally address the '1st line center' hole which, in hindsight, obviously didn't work out). However, 2nd round picks - though valuable - weren't exactly valuable on the Flames. What I mean is that due to being a smaller-scouting team (which he was revamping), those 2nd round picks would have had lower than average percentages of working out for the Flames. He brought guys in like Bourque (who was a very, very good player for a number of seasons) and Kipper with those 2nd rounders.

I don't really fault him for the trades - I think he was a strong trading GM. I don't fault him for the UFA signings - he got some high-profile UFAs. I don't even fault him for the drafting and development program (which was terrible when he took over, but was definitely better by the time he left).

What do I fault him on?

The one glaring - and to me, was his single biggest fault as a GM - was his coaching selections.

Playfair was obviously not ready to handle an NHL team - at least not a Veteran-laden team. Keenan was already semi-retired and did nothing at all to 'correct' anything at all that was wrong with the Flames. Brent Sutter was great in the media, but (to me) constantly appeared to be trying to fit square pegs in round holes over and over again instead of trying to adapt any strategies to make use of the Flames' strengths.

Another fault - and this is a tough one to really get any insight on - was Sutter succumbing to the 'pressure to win'. The team did need to be rebuilt, and it just wasn't happening. Now, I don't know if the ownership group wouldn't support a rebuild, so I can't firmly stamp this fault square on Sutter's shoulders'. He may indeed have argued for a rebuild. Who knows? Do I think so? No, I don't think he argued for one, but I do think he was timing for that possibility with how the contracts were at the time.

I do think that he left the Flames 'rebuild ready' in a way - the drafting and development program was essentially in place, and I really do believe that if he didn't do a good job in those areas, Calgary's rebuild would probably be as bungled as that of the Oilers'. Though there were some big contracts to get rid of, etc., those departments were definitely ready for the rebuild challenge as evidenced by how many good late picks there were through the end of Sutter's tenure and into the official rebuild. Oilers were not, and fell (and keep falling) on their faces.

All in all, I thought Sutter's first stab as a GM was extremely successful. Mistakes? Heck ya. Did the Flames have grounds in replacing him? I think so - I think GMs sometimes just need a change to get their heads screwed on straight again. I do think he did do a good job when you view his entire body of work (at least, when you view the things we at least have visibility on). I bet he gets another crack at the position somewhere else eventually.

This is a great post and a fantastic way to help people look at Sutter's position from another viewpoint .

[dammage79]

Feasters drafting (or the hands off approach to the scouting staff) has secured a very bright future for the Flames. #2.

[jg13]

nvm