CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[BoomBoom]

Just got this email from the Flames:


It is a great time to be a sports fan and live in this wonderful and vibrant city of Calgary. We would like to share a proposal for a project that will make all Calgarians and Albertans proud.

This has the potential to be one of Calgary's most transformative projects at a vital time in our city's history.

This will be our first public discussion on this project and it is important that you be among the first to know.

On August 18, we will be hosting an information session to present the high level scope of the project including a preview of CalgaryNEXT.

This is not a formal launch of the project, but it is an opportunity for us to share what has been done to date and introduce our vision for the future.

Please confirm your attendance and since space is limited, please RSVP by 12 noon on Friday, August 14. We hope you can join us.

Best regards,

Ken King
President & CEO
Calgary Sports & Entertainment Corporation


http://i62.tinypic.com/160e792.png

[Antithesis]

August 18th of which year?

[Looch City]

What a time to be alive. :eek:

[Badgers Nose]

Wow. They haven't even started yet and it will be finished Aug 18? That's great!

[Locke]

Wow. They haven't even started yet and it will be finished Aug 18? That's great!

Where we're going we dont need roads.

[SuperMatt18]

CalgaryNEXT vs Ice District

Who names these things?

[BoomBoom]

Here's that screenshot of the email.
http://i62.tinypic.com/160e792.png

[H2SO4(aq)]

Never thought I'd live to see the announcement

[Winsor_Pilates]

hopefully just a working title

[StrykerSteve]

Awesome. Can't wait to see this.

[jayswin]

I guess OutoftheCube can stop crying about Muta now?

[Ruttiger]

hopefully just a working title

Didn't take long for the first critique.

[Locke]

Didn't take long for the first critique.

Never does.

[Locke]

Ice District always makes me think of this:

gm5We9q00Lg

[hockey.modern]

Those attending, please can we have jot notes of what is being said? Thanks in advance!

[Resolute 14]

Well, F. It is being held on the only day next week that I can't go.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I think we've mostly figured out what this project is going to be. The big part of this now is when it's being built and how it's being financed. So hopefully we get some info there.

[Bunk]

I'll be going. Can't wait to see it (assuming they show something tangible).

[Tyler]

Ken King - "I'd like to formally invite you all to an event where we will not be formally launching anything."

This is Ken King to a tee.

[Buff]

What is this, August Fools day?

[Locke]

Ken King - "I'd like to formally invite you all to an event where we will not be formally launching anything."

This is Ken King to a tee.

Brought to you by Craig MacTavish!

"This presentation isnt going to satisfy anybody..."

[Ozy_Flame]

Sounds like a concept introduction to the public, but nothing set in stone. Perhaps looking for public approval to help sway government and other business leaders?

[polak]

Maybe this arena has been under construction this whole time in secret and on Tuesday it will rise from under the bow river in epic fashion.

[RM14]

All I want is renderings

[Robbob]

I think this isn't official because it is primary going to be STH to give them some crumbs before the big unveiling. Kind of like a dry run.

[Looch City]

Sounds like a concept introduction to the public, but nothing set in stone. Perhaps looking for public approval to help sway government and other business leaders?

Or they'll announce the Kickstarter campaign.

[Locke]

Or they'll announce the Kickstarter campaign.

Now that would be priceless!

[TorqueDog]

Sounds like the 'project name' and not the name of the actual district or building.

[OutOfTheCube]

I guess OutoftheCube can stop crying about Muta now?

Haha. I stand by what I said. Make sense that it was someone else who actually broke something meaningful ;)

Looking forward to hearing more about this project.

Last I have to say about that little exchange though, we should all just be excited for this big announcement! Will be huge for the city and for fans of hockey here.

[squiggs96]

Can someone change the title? The new arena is not coming in 6 days.

[Ozy_Flame]

Or they'll announce the Kickstarter campaign.

Hah! More like the Flames will allow a reconfiguration of Bow Trail onto Crowchild using arena property, allow for an express toll road to bypass normal traffic, and make bucks off of rich people with nice cars wanting to get home faster to meet their golf times.

[Looch City]

Can someone change the title? The new arena is not coming in 6 days.

No, we all are. ;)

[Scary Eloranta]

^ Priceless

[saillias]

Can someone change the title? The new arena is not coming in 6 days.

Says you. People downtown, be on the lookout for any large cowboy hat-a-domes.

[HotHotHeat]

Hah.

They specifically mention that they will not mention anything specific during this announcement.

Great work, Ken.

[MissTeeks]

Twitter account open:

@CalgaryNext: Welcome to the Twitter home of #CalgaryNext. Stay tuned Tuesday, August 18, 2015. #yyc

[Robbob]

Hah.

They specifically mention that they will not mention anything specific during this announcement.

Great work, Ken.

High level scope of the project and the vision is all anyone wants. I think there will be enough shared on Tuesday.

[Otto-matic]

Says you. People downtown, be on the lookout for any large cowboy hat-a-domes.

We are just waiting for the convoy to arrive. It'll be the first portable NHL arena!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqdzzrKQs21qlkismo1_500.gif

[OutOfTheCube]

Yeah, there's a whole lot of wording in that e-mail that seems to be saying "don't get too excited yet":

It is a great time to be a sports fan and live in this wonderful and vibrant city of Calgary. We would like to share a proposal for a project that will make all Calgarians and Albertans proud.

This has the potential to be one of Calgary's most transformative projects at a vital time in our city's history.

This will be our first public discussion on this project and it is important that you be among the first to know.

On August 18, we will be hosting an information session to present the high level scope of the project including a preview of CalgaryNEXT.

This is not a formal launch of the project, but it is an opportunity for us to share what has been done to date and introduce our vision for the future.

Really hoping there is some substantial info though!

[codynw]

Twitter account open:

@CalgaryNext: Welcome to the Twitter home of #CalgaryNext. Stay tuned Tuesday, August 18, 2015. #yyc

Can't trust it without a blue checkmark.

[CroFlames]

I hope the district itself isn't named CalgaryNEXT, although I'm definitely not hung up on what it's going to be called.

Excited to see what information comes from the STH event.

Thanks to STHs that share the info with the regular folk. (Tier 2 fans ;))

[hockey.modern]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/631533540312657922/PJ3pypLZ.png

@CalgaryNext: Welcome to the Twitter home of #CalgaryNext. Stay tuned Tuesday, August 18, 2015. #yyc

[Benched]

Sounds like a concept introduction to the public, but nothing set in stone. Perhaps looking for public approval to help sway government and other business leaders?

that's how I read it

[Strange Brew]

Very thankful for some news on this. I wonder if they put enough qualifiers into the opening statement:

"proposal"
"potential"
"high level scope"
"not a formal launch"

Can't say I expected more but I thought KK specifically said they didn't want to roll anything out until it was ready and firm plans were in place. Whatever.

The very good news is that this gets the real discussion started. How much will it cost and what kind of deal are the owners looking for. I certainly hope he is ready to answer those questions on the 18th.

As an earlier poster mentioned, this is undoubtedly designed to start to put some pressure on elected officials by getting the public excited about a project. That approach makes me nervous but realistically, can't expect the Flames to want to finance the whole thing when that happens so rarely in other cities.

I really hope the Flames are able to handle this as gracefully as possible.

[hockey.modern]

@Fan960Steinberg: #Flames say this isn't a formal launch, but "an opportunity to share what has been done and to introduce their vision for the future."

[FlamesKickAss]

I'm just going for the free lunch

[Finger Cookin]

What a time to be alive. :eek:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qu32fBkiHFE/hqdefault.jpg

[polak]

Yeah this has all the makings of a let down, in that it won't have much for new info.

"we want to build a district where Calgarians can live, work and play. Here's a disappointingly vague fly through of the district with approximations and concepts of what this district may end up looking like"

[getbak]

I just noticed that the invite is for the primary account holder only. You can't even bring a guest.

[Finger Cookin]

8 years for an informal launch of the potential proposal. Arena to be completed in time for puck drop on opening night of the 58-59 season. Ken King III to be present for the ribbon cutting.

[Muta]

Are you serious? A letdown? This is an official announcement by the Flames Sports and Entertainment Group for their plans to build a new arena district titled CalgaryNEXT, and it's already a letdown since everything isn't done on your personal timeframe?

It's amazing what it takes takes to impress some people, wow.

[Scornfire]

So are you STHers going to meet up at bar beforehand, drink for about 30m past the scheduled start time and send a messenger to tell them that you'll be there soon?

[Nehkara]

http://img.pandawhale.com/61880-George-Michael-its-happening-i-dNrF.gif

[BigFlameDog]

Wow...some of you can't help yourself can you?

[Scary Eloranta]

Surprised by all the negativity in here. I was sky high when I heard about this.

[Resolute 14]

Surprised by all the negativity in here. I was sky high when I heard about this.

When you consider the names attached to the negativity, you shouldn't really be surprised.

[Locke]

I just noticed that the invite is for the primary account holder only. You can't even bring a guest.

Space is limited!

Are you serious? A letdown? This is an official announcement by the Flames Sports and Entertainment Group for their plans to build a new arena district titled CalgaryNEXT, and it's already a letdown since everything isn't done on your personal timeframe?

It's amazing what it takes takes to impress some people, wow.

No kidding.

[troutman]

Hopefully this works better than MarvelNext.

or PepsiNext.

[Enoch Root]

The reactions in this thread are unbelievable...

Some people are wanting to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in your city - to your benefit, as well as theirs - and all you can do is bitch that there won't be enough details yet. GFYs

I can't wait, personally.

[Weitz]

"You guys don't have the same reaction as me! Shame on you!"

[sureLoss]

Dave Dormer @SunDaveDormer
Source says @CalgaryNext project will include arena for @NHLFlames and fieldhouse for @calstampeders, proposed for west end of downtown #yyc

Dave Dormer @SunDaveDormer
Source also says @NHLFlames will ask for $200 million from the city to build fieldhouse, team will finance arena @CalgaryNext #yyccc #yyc

[jmac98]

The reality of these negative contributors are they will all be absolutely glued to their mobile device and/or radio come Tuesday.

[Tyler]

So does that mean no replacement for McMahon then?

[_Q_]

I really hope the stampeders aren't going to be playing in a fieldhouse.

[jayswin]

Dave Dormer @SunDaveDormer
Source says @CalgaryNext project will include arena for @NHLFlames and fieldhouse for @calstampeders, proposed for west end of downtown #yyc

Dave Dormer @SunDaveDormer
Source also says @NHLFlames will ask for $200 million from the city to build fieldhouse, team will finance arena @CalgaryNext #yyccc #yyc

Wait so no new football stadium???

[shogged]

Woohoo can't wait!

[Ozy_Flame]

There must be a stadium for the Stampeders in here, it makes too much sense to build a new one in a central location with a field house next door, no? I can't see why they would not want to do that unless they're really strapped for cash.

Also, regarding Dave Dormer's tweet, it is easier to ask the government for funding for a field house than an arena by a long mile since it will be (and I'm guessing here) a publicly-accessible facility promoting exercise and health for the larger community.

[burn_this_city]

I'm excited except for the location, worst traffic spot in the city.

[PepsiFree]

Maybe this arena has been under construction this whole time in secret and on Tuesday it will rise from under the bow river in epic fashion.


I assume Hans Zimmer will be scoring it's rise from the depths?

[Locke]

It sounds more like the fieldhouse is going to double as a community area so the Flames are asking the City to contribute.

I'd bet they're still building a new football arena.

[GioforPM]

I'm excited except for the location, worst traffic spot in the city.

Well that's a reason for the city to assist - the traffic will be addressed.

[Locke]

At the end of the day if its a $1B+ project and all they're asking the City for is $200M then this should be a cakewalk.

Unless they plan to build a pedestrian bridge above the fieldhouse and then all hell will break loose.

[jmac98]

At the end of the day if its a $1B+ project and all they're asking the City for is $200M then this should be a cakewalk.

Unless they plan to build a pedestrian bridge above the fieldhouse and then all hell will break loose.

Just make it really ugly and call it an art project. There's another 1% from the city contributed right there...

[hockey.modern]

Don't forget the bike lanes.

[Muta]

I believe it would be more strategic to ask governments for 'field house' money than for a new football stadium.

[Senator Clay Davis]

At the end of the day if its a $1B+ project and all they're asking the City for is $200M then this should be a cakewalk.

Unless they plan to build a pedestrian bridge above the fieldhouse and then all hell will break loose.

I assume the $200 million does not include the land remediation. That's gonna be the biggest expense here (other than fixing up Crowchild/Bow). We just need some CPC poll numbers to tank here so they can bribe contribute some money.

[troutman]

https://www.facebook.com/CalgaryNext?fref=ts

https://twitter.com/CalgaryNext

[Resolute 14]

At the end of the day if its a $1B+ project and all they're asking the City for is $200M then this should be a cakewalk.

Unless they plan to build a pedestrian bridge above the fieldhouse and then all hell will break loose.

$200 million from this council is no cake walk at all.

It could be that the arena and field house comes first, the new football stadium later.

[RM14]

Pretty sure there are already funds for the field house set aside by the city. Cannot confirm that though.

[Locke]

I assume the $200 million does not include the land remediation. That's gonna be the biggest expense here (other than fixing up Crowchild/Bow). We just need some CPC poll numbers to tank here so they can bribe contribute some money.

Well the land remediation is their problem. If I was building something and wanted to buy the land only to find that it was contaminated then that is the seller's responsibility.

[Locke]

$200 million from this council is no cake walk at all.

It could be that the arena and field house comes first, the new football stadium later.

I'm just figuring that if $200M up front, with land remediation, road infrastructure (that we need anyways) and with future compensation is the ask on a huge project like this then it shouldnt be an insurmountable issue.

[hockey.modern]

@SunDaveDormer: @PeteyYYC No, as I understand it, they'll play there too. (Stampeders at the field house)

[Regular_John]

Live | Work | Play

Possible condo/office space as well? Few developments in the states (CityCenter in Vegas comes to mind, but I'm sure there's others) have a mixed use complex with residences attached to shopping/hotel/other attractions as well.

[Locke]

@SunDaveDormer: @PeteyYYC No, as I understand it, they'll play there too. (Stampeders at the field house)

Uh...that'll have to be one helluva 'field house.'

[zztim81]

has to be fake... Sureloss didnt announce it first...

[corporatejay]

That's a great move by the Stamps. Use the fieldhouse for the handful of dates you have a year, open it up for public use year round.....win-win-win.

[jayswin]

@SunDaveDormer: @PeteyYYC No, as I understand it, they'll play there too. (Stampeders at the field house)

Okay, so I'd imagine it'll be a state of the art (by CFL standards) football stadium that also has a bunch of typical fieldhouse amenities, but not your standard, bland fieldhouse look.

Basically a fieldhouse in name only. If anything, maybe a clever move by the Flames to make it a "public use" "fieldhouse" and football stadium to attract public dollars.

[Ozy_Flame]

Field House = covered stadium with training facilities? :eek::w00t:

[polak]

I'm as excited as all of you but this whole entire process has led me to believe that we will be disappointed with the amount (lack of) information we are actually told.

The qualifier filled email pretty much cements that belief.

If we get an accurate rendering of the finished product I will be shocked.

[corporatejay]

Uh...that'll have to be one helluva 'field house.'


well the pacers play at a "fieldhouse" too but it's basically an arena, so who knows.

[getbak]

If it will be a combination fieldhouse and stadium, I guess that pretty much confirms it will be a covered stadium.

[hockey.modern]

Live | Work | Play



Possible condo/office space as well? Few developments in the states (CityCenter in Vegas comes to mind, but I'm sure there's others) have a mixed use complex with residences attached to shopping/hotel/other attractions as well.


That would be amazing if it was. Especially with the pitch of two arenas incorporated with the project.

[Buck Murdock]

Can someone change the title? The new arena is not coming in 6 days.

Maybe the Bluth company is building it to kickstart their phase 3 campaign #solidasarock

[N-E-B]

I can't wait until the Stamps are out of McMahon. I hate that stadium. I no longer attend Stamps games live because it's such a pain to get to and you end up missing way too much of the game if you want to get food or go to the washroom.

[polak]

Okay, so I'd imagine it'll be a state of the art (by CFL standards) football stadium that also has a bunch of typical fieldhouse amenities, but not your standard, bland fieldhouse look.

Basically a fieldhouse in name only. If anything, maybe a clever move by the Flames to make it a "public use" "fieldhouse" and football stadium to attract public dollars.

If all it takes to fool our politicians into thinking that this isn't a football stadium for the Stamps is throwing in some public facilities and calling it a "field house" then we're in trouble....

[jayswin]

I'm as excited as all of you but this whole entire process has led me to believe that we will be disappointed with the amount (lack of) information we are actually told.

The qualifier filled email pretty much cements that belief.

If we get an accurate rendering of the finished product I will be shocked.

Have you ever had a positive thought in your life? Just from your online persona you come across as one of those people that's been disappointed so many times that they feel they have to mentally prepare for disappointment at every turn.

[jmac98]

I'm as excited as all of you but this whole entire process has led me to believe that we will be disappointed with the amount (lack of) information we are actually told.

The qualifier filled email pretty much cements that belief.

If we get an accurate rendering of the finished product I will be shocked.

I might be either naive or just overly optimistic, but in lieu of how long an announcement of any variety has taken, amidst Ken King remarking he would only come forth once he has relevant information to share, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

It wouldn't be consistent with him to come out and make a generic open ended statement, since he could have done that at any time. I'd like to think he's further ahead than and consistent with his stance all this time.

[hockey.modern]

FAN960: rumoured that they are interested for MLS team. With the new field house it can accommodate the team in the next 10 years.

[polak]

Have you ever had a positive thought in your life? Just from your online persona you come across as one of those people that's been disappointed so many times that they feel they have to mentally prepare for disappointment at every turn.

Pretty much.

FAN960: rumoured that they are interested for MLS team. With the new field house it can accommodate the team in the next 10 years.

This would be the best news ever.

[Muta]

If all it takes to fool our politicians into thinking that this isn't a football stadium for the Stamps is throwing in some public facilities and calling it a "field house" then we're in trouble....

Why do you have to fool the politicians? The Flames just play within the rules, they don't set them.

[skudr248]

Must. Temper. Expectations.

[hockey.modern]

I do wonder if the field house will solely be $200m or that is just what the Flames are asking as a part for the total cost of the stadium

[polak]

Why do you have to fool the politicians? The Flames just play within the rules, they don't set them.

I was referring to it being called a clever move to name it a field house.

Pretty transparent that it's a stadium for the Stamps/MLS team.

I just got a boner from writing that.

God I hope we get an MLS team.

I do wonder if the field house will solely be $200m or that is just what the Flames are asking as a part for the total cost of the stadium

That's a good question.

[BigFlameDog]

I'm as excited as all of you but this whole entire process has led me to believe that we will be disappointed with the amount (lack of) information we are actually told.

The qualifier filled email pretty much cements that belief.

If we get an accurate rendering of the finished product I will be shocked.

Yeah we get it.....copy that....roger...you have decided you will be disappointed...print/save.

I believe there is no possible way they will have us all come down to a scheduled event during a weekday and NOT show a reasonably accurate rendering. Zero % chance of that.

[Muta]

FAN960: rumoured that they are interested for MLS team. With the new field house it can accommodate the team in the next 10 years.

Well, my 'socks' are now blown off.

[Yoho]

FAN960: rumoured that they are interested for MLS team. With the new field house it can accommodate the team in the next 10 years.

"Knock your socks off" perhaps?

[troutman]

Clearly we need Peace Bridge 2, around 19th St NW.

Then, we should be buying up land in West Hillhurst.

[bax]

Knocking off the Canucks in the first round, stealing Dougie from Boston, and finally news of a new arena?

Flames fans have it pretty good these days!

[Nehkara]

FAN960: rumoured that they are interested for MLS team. With the new field house it can accommodate the team in the next 10 years.

I have been speculating for years that this would happen with the new arena/stadium project. I really really want an MLS team. So excited!

[RM14]

The field house angle is confusing the hell out of me.

[DoubleF]

I just want to say... Muta's comments are much more hilarious with his new Partick Thistle avatar.

Oh yeah, excited for the arena and field house stuff too. :D

[jayswin]

Despite what I just said about Polak being negative, the cynic in me says Calgary is likely headed for very tough economic times for a lot of years, where even the Flames as a playoff/contender will lose lots of fans from their ticket buying base.

A brand new MLS team could work in pre-2015 Calgary, but I'd imagine it'll be tough to have success in our new reality as a city, and 1.2 million people (which I believe is low for MLS cities).

[mikephoen]

Have all season ticket holders been invited to this? I haven't seen the invite in my email yet.

[jmac98]

I was referring to it being called a clever move to name it a field house.

Pretty transparent that it's a stadium for the Stamps/MLS team.



I don't know a lot about this stuff, but isn't the term 'field house' just a generic term for a sports facility? There's no definitive requirement for it's presentation is there? As such, I don't know that it's so much a bait and switch as it is a logical compromise using new age or advanced architecture/design to encompass the needs of multiple facets including professional sports.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Despite what I just said about Polak being negative, the cynic in me says Calgary is likely headed for very tough economic times for a lot of years, where even the Flames as a playoff/contender will lose lots of fans from their ticket buying base.

A brand new MLS team could work in pre-2015 Calgary, but I'd imagine it'll be tough to have success in our new reality as a city, and 1.2 million people (which I believe is low for MLS cities).

That and the other Canadian cities had shown clear support for soccer at lower levels prior to getting a MLS team. Calgary, not so much. I just don't think there's enough true support for a soccer team in this city.

[jmac98]

Have all season ticket holders been invited to this? I haven't seen the invite in my email yet.

I received an invite, but I'm the primary account owner. Someone earlier had noted it's limited to the primary due to limited space. Is that yourself?

[Strange Brew]

If this news is true - that the Flames are prepared to finance the hockey arena themselves - well that is fantastic news. Leave the fieldhouse funding as negotiation point, or phase 2 or something like that.

So then open question is the land I guess? The remediation is a tricky issue. Yes it is the sellers responsibility but what if the seller doesn't want to sell?

[bizaro86]

What are the odds that seat licenses will be used to pay for this?

I'm a bit concerned that I'll be asked to pony up $10k/seat to keep my season tickets at a time when my job is looking pretty uncertain.

[polak]

They could just be using the MLS team to rally up some support.

The MLS already has a pretty big list of teams. Maybe they're planning on going the European multi tier league model?

That would make a lot more sense. Calgary could be a perfect location for a MLS-2 team.

That would be less exciting though.

[hockey.modern]

I do hope that the facility will be similar to the Vikings new U.S. Bank Stadium as from what I've seen, it will be housed for multi sport facility's as well.

[Weitz]

Why is remediation of land the sellers problem? Why can't they sell as is?

I mean other than taking a hit on the value.. I am sure you could still make money off it.

[Igottago]

Despite what I just said about Polak being negative, the cynic in me says Calgary is likely headed for very tough economic times for a lot of years, where even the Flames as a playoff/contender will lose lots of fans from their ticket buying base.

A brand new MLS team could work in pre-2015 Calgary, but I'd imagine it'll be tough to have success in our new reality as a city, and 1.2 million people (which I believe is low for MLS cities).

That could work in the MLS team's favour. MLS season tickets would be a drop in the bucket compared to Flames season tickets, and represent a value opportunity for Calgarians to get their live sports fix.

[Senator Clay Davis]

What are the odds that seat licenses will be used to pay for this?

I'm a bit concerned that I'll be asked to pony up $10k/seat to keep my season tickets at a time when my job is looking pretty uncertain.

The second part of your post sums up why they can't really do it right now. I mean asking for PSLs in 2005 when everything was going well? That's still a tough sell but there's enough people with big money that it probably is fine. But asking for PSLs now seems like a PR nightmare with the economy as is.

Now if the arena is built in 5+years and the economy is better then? Might see PSLs then.

[christoph186]

Makes sense, that's my birthday!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tyler]

what are the odds that seat licenses will be used to pay for this?

I'm a bit concerned that i'll be asked to pony up $10k/seat to keep my season tickets at a time when my job is looking pretty uncertain.

10,000%

[tvp2003]

They might call it a field house, but the City won't be paying $200 million for a Stampeders practice facility.

I do wonder if the field house will solely be $200m or that is just what the Flames are asking as a part for the total cost of the stadium

Cost of Evraz Place in Regina is estimated to be $278 million. I suspect $200 million is just the ask from the City, but that's just my guess.

[Daradon]

Man I'd love to go to that meeting.

I agree that wrapping up the financing details will probably take quite a while. Lots of levels of government to talk with, and as mentioned, the economics aren't really good right now, and probably won't be good for a while.

At the very least though, we probably find out what area of the city it will be in finally! East Village? West Village? Somewhere else?

I just hope it's some place central.

[hockey.modern]

Hey look, the Calgary Herald used BoomBoom picture of the statement: http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/letter-fuels-flames-arena-speculation

[Strange Brew]

Why is remediation of land the sellers problem? Why can't they sell as is?

I mean other than taking a hit on the value.. I am sure you could still make money off it.

That is basically the same thing. Either way it comes out of the sellers pocket.

[mac_82]

That could work in the MLS team's favour. MLS season tickets would be a drop in the bucket compared to Flames season tickets, and represent a value opportunity for Calgarians to get their live sports fix.

This. For 18ish games a season with a $10-25 price per game, you can get a whole season in a supporters section cheaper than what some people pay for 1 Flames game.

http://www.empireofsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Table-11.jpg

[jayswin]

I do hope that the facility will be similar to the Vikings new U.S. Bank Stadium as from what I've seen, it will be housed for multi sport facility's as well.

I too hope the Flames build a $1.06bil stadium/fieldhouse for the Stamps! ;)

It would be pretty cool, but even though I know what you were getting at (a CFL sized, cheaper version of that), it still wouldn't make sense as that stadium kind of is what it is. It looks and functions amazingly because it's a +$1bil stadium.

If you stripped that down to fit our budget all you'd end up with is a crappy, cheap looking knock off version of it.

Definitely a cool stadium, though.

http://i.imgur.com/Fmx0t8U.jpg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCOiP6Lq4pMcCFUl2PgodrkcIlw&url=http%3A%2F%2Furbanmsp.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff% 3D13%26t%3D1804%26start%3D800&ei=Q7TL###iGsns-QGuj6G4CQ&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cWw&psig=AFQjCNHPK2piKV0AXIzB4roGnrMjELOxng&ust=1439499687725151)

http://www.thorntontomasetti.com/wp-content/gallery/minnesota_multipurpose_stadium/vikings_4.jpg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCNOklcW4pMcCFYU4Pgod3mkJtw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thorntontomasetti.com%2Fproje cts%2Fminnesota_multipurpose_stadium%2F&ei=WbTLVZOUCYXx-AHe06W4Cw&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cWw&psig=AFQjCNHPK2piKV0AXIzB4roGnrMjELOxng&ust=1439499687725151)

[_Q_]

Atlanta United FC is set to begin playing in the MLS in 2017. So that 10 year time frame they're talking about would mean they'll be moving to Calgary in about their 8th year of operation. Their colours are also red, gold and black.


http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2015/07/07/2d/a5/atlutd_icon.jpg

[DoubleF]

Why is remediation of land the sellers problem? Why can't they sell as is?

I mean other than taking a hit on the value.. I am sure you could still make money off it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you're allowed to sell land until you receive a remediation certificate. I don't know the rules though. Maybe someone can clarify?

I think it has something to do with actually getting the environment remediation done instead of passing around a hot potato liability and costs of remediation increasing year after year and the work never getting done, but I could be wrong.

[BoomBoom]

Hey look, the Calgary Herald used BoomBoom picture of the statement: http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/letter-fuels-flames-arena-speculation

That's awesome. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Demaeon]

I'm just going for the free lunch

Did you even read the email?

This is not a formal lunch

[jayswin]

Although, if we were going balls out, something along the lines of the new Saints stadium would get my vote.

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/NewOrleansSaints/newinterior.gif (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCPL8iJS8pMcCFYoXPgod9MkPVA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffootball.ballparks.com%2FNFL%2FNe wOrleansSaints%2Fnewindex.htm&ei=I7jLVbLfOIqv-AH0k7-gBQ&psig=AFQjCNF2qlbSEXvJgg7yRKBtC0ZYDJM2DQ&ust=1439500703464902)

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/NewOrleansSaints/newaerial.gif

[polak]

Does it come with the blimp?

[shermanator]

Anyone thinking that we are getting an MLS team with this complex is completely out to lunch. MLS has NO interest in expanding in Canada. You can all forget about that possibility.

However, there have been rumours that a Canadian Division 1 is going to launch in 2017, with a Calgary team, that may have the Flames involved as investors. Perhaps a fieldhouse would work as a grounds for that team? The information is really only being leaked from one source so they have been taken with a large grain of salt to date until a second source of leaks can corroborate the information.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/c-league-cities-r5374

[hockey.modern]

I think somthing along the lines of the Fieldhouse Stadium would be similar to what UNLV's proposal of their new stadium. It's a multi sport facility that can accomadate the football, soccer and even go down to scale for basketball, which Calgary could use for concerts if we needed to scale down. Also if I recall, the stadium can be indoor/outdoor with its retractable roof.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/sites/default/files/field/image/8530920-3-150007.jpg
http://kvvu.images.worldnow.com/images/7384116_G.jpg
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/0.tQi_KVW18t1OC5tApmcA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusboxexperts/UPDATE-UFC-STADIUM-640.jpg
http://cdn.rsvlts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/UNLV-Now-Las-Vegas-Football-Stadium-08.jpg

[Fire]

Having the Stampeders play in a multi-purpose building makes a lot of sense unless it looks like garbage. Hopefully they have pictures on the 18th.

[RM14]

Having the Stampeders play in a multi-purpose building makes a lot of sense unless it looks like garbage. Hopefully they have pictures on the 18th.

And the seats are able to be tight to the field. I assume there will be a track that CFL configuration would cover.

[Badgers Nose]

I'm hoping for an MLS team.

I know its a long shot, but I'm really digging MLS games. Assertive offense focused soccer is entertaining.

I'll be a founder STH.

[Badgers Nose]

Why is remediation of land the sellers problem? Why can't they sell as is?

I mean other than taking a hit on the value.. I am sure you could still make money off it.

Yeah, if its same difference why would the buyer mind?

Because it is probably not, and they don't want to get stuck with the bill.

But it will all get sorted out.

[johnnybegaudreau]

For the earlier posters. Fieldhouse is just a generic name for a sporting venue. It's used a lot in colleges in the states. Many colleges have their fieldhouse/training facilities like UM, a few basketball teams too etc. They are very much full sized stadiums and or arenas (in the case of bball) with all the amenities for housing football, basketball, track and swimming and other stuff.

This will be a transformative football arena with amenties for public use... see the Calgary Fieldhouse project for the types of events and sort of set up that they will want for public use. All kinds of amateur sports groups need something like this. The rumored 200M i think is fair given that many amateur groups that need this sort of facility built. Not to mention the Flames foundation for life has built amateur arenas and given money to amateur sporting facilities in Calgary for the last 20 years. TBH that's way better than McMahon which sits empty 90% of the year. The stamps play what 10 games a season maybe 12 if they go the distance. It be great to have that thing booked all the time. Also as others have pointed out having a transformative stadium complex allows for MLS expansion, potentially concert series, and many many variety of other events. Smart move by the Flames. It's one I predicted on here months back in the arena thread. Financially, economically it makes sense on mutliple levels. I think it's something Calgarian tax payers can behind too.

[Resolute 14]

Have all season ticket holders been invited to this? I haven't seen the invite in my email yet.

Given the limited space, invites are probably by seniority.

[TX_Flame]

Just make it really ugly and call it an art project. There's another 1% from the city contributed right there...
Ugly??? I think that bridge is one of the coolest things in the entire city. Calgary finally built something that belongs in the 21st century.

[jayswin]

For the earlier posters. Fieldhouse is just a generic name for a sporting venue. It's used a lot in colleges in the states. Many colleges have their fieldhouse/training facilities like UM, a few basketball teams too etc. They are very much full sized stadiums and or arenas (in the case of bball) with all the amenities for housing football, basketball, track and swimming and other stuff.

This will be a transformative football arena with amenties for public use... see the Calgary Fieldhouse project for the types of events and sort of set up that they will want for public use. All kinds of amateur sports groups need something like this. The rumored 200M i think is fair given that many amateur groups that need this sort of facility built. Not to mention the Flames foundation for life has built amateur arenas and given money to amateur sporting facilities in Calgary for the last 20 years. TBH that's way better than McMahon which sits empty 90% of the year. The stamps play what 10 games a season maybe 12 if they go the distance. It be great to have that thing booked all the time. Also as others have pointed out having a transformative stadium complex allows for MLS expansion, potentially concert series, and many many variety of other events. Smart move by the Flames. It's one I predicted on here months back in the arena thread. Financially, economically it makes sense on mutliple levels. I think it's something Calgarian tax payers can behind too.

This also makes sense when I try to visualize this project in the west village. I was trying to visualize a football stadium, arena, entertainment district AND a fieldhouse and I just couldn't picture where it would all go.

[Resolute 14]

Anyone thinking that we are getting an MLS team with this complex is completely out to lunch. MLS has NO interest in expanding in Canada. You can all forget about that possibility.

However, there have been rumours that a Canadian Division 1 is going to launch in 2017, with a Calgary team, that may have the Flames involved as investors. Perhaps a fieldhouse would work as a grounds for that team? The information is really only being leaked from one source so they have been taken with a large grain of salt to date until a second source of leaks can corroborate the information.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/c-league-cities-r5374

Agreed, and thanks for sharing this. This is exactly what I was expecting all along. Calgary is just way too far down the list of potential MLS cities.

[Daradon]

Did you even read the email?

not a formal LAUNCH.

Unless your just trying to be funny...

[heep223]

It's going to be awesome not having to choose between a beer and a pee, if you don't want to miss any of the game. It was so bad during the playoffs that we actually left the dome, went behind some bushes and then re-entered. This proved to be an excellent strategy.

[Weitz]

That is basically the same thing. Either way it comes out of the sellers pocket.

Yeah, if its same difference why would the buyer mind?

Because it is probably not, and they don't want to get stuck with the bill.

But it will all get sorted out.

I think if I owned the land and it was valuable to the flames to build their stadiums I wouldn't be paying for most of the remediation. I think I would be able to negotiate more than what the value of the land would be minus clean up.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Maybe this arena has been under construction this whole time in secret and on Tuesday it will rise from under the bow river in epic fashion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3O9HLDIAAEu1jF.jpg

Maybe Ken King has been watching Contact and we get a suspiciously red tinged clone of Edmonton's Roger's Place...

[BurningSteel]

Never thought I'd live to see the announcement

Knock on some wood. Monday is a long ways off.

[TX_Flame]

Well, my 'socks' are now blown off.
You mean your soccers are blown off, no? How about your boots?

[Bunk]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.

[Thunderball]

Agreed, and thanks for sharing this. This is exactly what I was expecting all along. Calgary is just way too far down the list of potential MLS cities.

Money talks, and if an ownership group like the Flames with a new stadium designed for MLS comes along, Calgary may jump to the top of the list pretty fast. MLS isn't actively seeking Canadian clubs, but I doubt they would refuse if the right arrangement came along (something like this). The ultimate build up for MLS is likely 32, just like the other American sport leagues. Minnesota for instance was just announced and are still three years out (2018). Hence a 10 year plan seems feasible.

CSA Div 1A is an even bigger pipe dream with reports coming only from one reporter. It smells of Canadian Baseball League or worse, the CUSL plans.
NASL is possible due to the rumblings of a Canadian division, and the existence of Ottawa and Edmonton, but Division 2 soccer might be too minor league for the Flames to consider as part of their plans when planning at this scale.

No doubt they are sounding out MLS. Whether they can queue jump is another question.

[troutman]

Cecil Hotel being demolished. New arena site?:ph34r:

http://calgaryherald.com/business/commercial-real-estate/cecil-hotel-in-downtown-calgary-slated-for-demolition?hootPostID=61858f279d7164643c6d97255946 1715

This particular block is poised for redevelopment with a number of other projects planned in the vicinity

[sureLoss]

Roger Millions @RogMillions
A source has suggested to me "CalgaryNext" if and when "vision" goes ahead could take up to 8 years to totally be completed. We will see

[getbak]

It looks like the press conference will be at 2:30 on Tuesday:

Kristen Odland ‏@KristenOdlandCH

Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation to "introduce vision" on Tuesday at 2:30 p.m. at the Scotiabank Saddledome.

So, all you unwashed "Tier 2" fans will be able to see it then.

[Muta]

Roger Millions @RogMillions
A source has suggested to me "CalgaryNext" if and when "vision" goes ahead could take up to 8 years to totally be completed. We will see

Well, of course. If there's work / live / play components, and not just sports facilities, we're talking about a commitment to development. That takes time. Just look at the East Village.

[BurningSteel]

Druh will find a reason to oppose. The new arena may have gleaming spots that would shine unfavourable light from time to time on precious sunnsyide.

Only way road upgrades will be approved is if all new lanes added are bike only.

Seriously though awesome news...hopefully ducks are in a row and the DP/BP process starts in the fall.

[troutman]

Money talks, and if an ownership group like the Flames with a new stadium designed for MLS comes along, Calgary jumps to the top of the list pretty fast. MLS isn't actively seeking Canadian clubs, but would not refuse if the right arrangement came along. The ultimate build up for MLS is likely 32, just like the other American sport leagues. Minnesota for instance was just announced and are still three years out (2018). Hence a 10 year plan seems feasible.



Calgary is a small market in North America (Twin Cities twice as big):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_urban_agglomerations_in_North_ America

[hockey.modern]

Roger Millions @RogMillions
A source has suggested to me "CalgaryNext" if and when "vision" goes ahead could take up to 8 years to totally be completed. We will see

Many of you guys will first see this as very long time, but if you look at it, if it's going to take almost a decade to build this. We should expect something very ambitious and big going forward.

[CroFlames]

It looks like the press conference will be at 2:30 on Tuesday:



So, all you unwashed "Tier 2" fans will be able to see it then.

Feels good cheering for an organization that actually cares about it's tier 2 or 3 fans.

Thanks KK :)

[Robbob]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.

It kind of wouldn't surprise me if Hotchkiss and Seaman didn't leave a little something behind for a legacy project for the city.

[getbak]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.
Yeah, that's about what I expect. Although, I've heard the environmental cleanup could reach $300 million, but I don't know the validity of that source.


Roger Millions @RogMillions
A source has suggested to me "CalgaryNext" if and when "vision" goes ahead could take up to 8 years to totally be completed. We will see
At a STH session a year and a half ago, I asked King about the timeline, and he said that if they announced it tomorrow (that being a year and a half ago), it would still be five years before they were playing in the new building.

I assume this will be built in phases with the arena opening first and the other stuff following later, 8 years to full completion wouldn't surprise me.


I'm interested in seeing what the "Live" and "Work" aspects of Live|Work|Play will look like. Something similar to Maple Leaf Square in Toronto would be pretty cool.

[Tyler]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.

IMO this is going to be one of the biggest pieces of the entire puzzle. Interested to see how they swing this one.

[troutman]

8 years?

By way of comparison, the new QC arena was done in 3 years (hockey arena only):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre

[hockey.modern]

So with everything being said currently, it seems as though that they will be building a multi-sport stadium that will be able to accommodate different usages of sports. That's a very reasonable choice as we can only expect the Stampeders to play at home at least 10 times a year and it doesn't make sense that they have they're own stadium. Having the multi-sport field-house can accommodate many uses such as, concerts, soccer, etc. UNLV is proposing a stadium that I think will be similar to what Calgary is looking for. That stadium can house different sports/events and as well be used indoor/outdoor.

https://i.gyazo.com/690ec218137edfbc58361955056a09f1.png

The new motto for the project is Live | Work | Play
https://i.gyazo.com/ff802cf2c1977c954046fefbcca973e6.png

That to me leaves me thinking that the total development for this arena will include buildings/hotel to accommodate the "LIVE"

"WORK" May be their to have some mixed use offices as well as a place where people work in the entertainment district.

"PLAY" of course means where we can expect the teams to play

I would love to see somthing like what they are doing in Orlando with the entertainment district and combine that with L.A Live. It may be ambitious but the buildings could be similar to what we see in Las Vegas CityCentre:

https://i.gyazo.com/2eecb03cfb6e20c777400faa2df9eac2.png

https://i.gyazo.com/32e99991f49bfa7ee304b3050ae1097c.png

https://i.gyazo.com/7b2175d8716935818029b437a8970909.png

[CroFlames]

If it's anything like LA Live, I would be pretty darn happy.

[Addick]

8 years?

By way of comparison, the new QC arena was done in 3 years (hockey arena only):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre

I'm thinking that it would be 8 Year for the complete build-out of the area and the arena would be built during one of the earlier phases.

In London, Arsenal received planning permission for their new ground in 2001, they broke ground in 2004, Emirates Stadium opened in 2006, the latest residential developments was completed in the last year and they were recently denied planning permission for the next residential tower.

[chalms04]

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.

$300m in straight public cash is only 12 Peace Bridges.

Let's do this.

[Smartcar]

I just noticed that the invite is for the primary account holder only. You can't even bring a guest.

Or even the co-account holder.

[snowdude]

Roger Millions @RogMillions
A source has suggested to me "CalgaryNext" if and when "vision" goes ahead could take up to 8 years to totally be completed. We will see

That's not completely crazy. In Ottawa it took just over 7 years for Lansdowne to work its way from concept to completing construction.

[Resolute 14]

8 years?

By way of comparison, the new QC arena was done in 3 years (hockey arena only):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre

It makes sense, really. Rumours have suggested multi-use complex. So, assume a year for remediation, two more for the arena, then the fieldhouse/stadium, and the offices and retail to end it.

[woob]

If they can fix Bow/Crowchild as part of this, I'm in. But that's probably wishful thinking.

[getbak]

If they can fix Bow/Crowchild as part of this, I'm in. But that's probably wishful thinking.

Sure, for another 2 billion.

[johnnybegaudreau]

Just throwing a guess out there, if this gets approived and gets started right away I'd say Flames first puck drop in new building would be 2020/2021 or 2021/2022 season.
Stamps probably by 2023.
Rest of everything else to be completed by 2025/26.

[Finger Cookin]

Just throwing a guess out there, if this gets approived and gets started right away I'd say Flames first puck drop in new building would be 2020/2021 or 2021/2022 season.
Stamps probably by 2023.
Rest of everything else to be completed by 2025/26.
My over under for the Flames playing in the new arena is 21-22. I hope that's not overly optimistic.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.

I like this but no way the road improvements will be satisfied by $100M. Wasn't the crowchild study something like $1 billion itself in cost? I used to speculate that the feds might pickup more of the tab in this regard (particularly for the remediation piece) but their recent funding of the Green Line LRT makes me doubt there's extra cash for Calgary....

[Resolute 14]

Money talks, and if an ownership group like the Flames with a new stadium designed for MLS comes along, Calgary may jump to the top of the list pretty fast. MLS isn't actively seeking Canadian clubs, but I doubt they would refuse if the right arrangement came along (something like this). The ultimate build up for MLS is likely 32, just like the other American sport leagues. Minnesota for instance was just announced and are still three years out (2018). Hence a 10 year plan seems feasible.

Money talks, but ours isn't the only money to be heard. I'd support it if it happened, but realistically, Calgary needs to show something at the NASL level, or even a new CSL for it to be viable in MLS' eyes, I suspect.

[heep223]

I seriously doubt that soccer is popular enough in Calgary to attract an MLS team. It's a niche.

[hockey.modern]

My prediction re: funding proposal:

$200m cash from owners for arena
$200m ticket tax over a period of time (backdropped by owners, not City)
$200m from City for Fieldhouse/Stadium (instead of $200m City has for Foothills Fieldhouse in its capital plan - note it is unfunded still)
$100m cash from owners for Fieldhouse/Stadium
$200m borrowed through CRL (like East Village) for remediation and infrastructure
$100m from Province and/or Feds for environmental remediation and infrastructure (helping facilitate but not paying for arena/stadium for things needed anyway regardless of those facilities)
Land given by City for "free"

Boom $1 billion give or take.


Geez, if we combine that with the roadwork of Crowchild & Bow Trail, we're looking at a 2+ Billion project here.

[surferguy]

Here is my prediction: CalgaryNEXT refers to getting the next Olympics in line. I saw all the predicted dates on the last page but would the completions line up for the available games?

Also re: the seat licenses: KK stated in a STH meeting I went to this past season that they will not be using that line of revenue.

[chedder]

I just hope there is a plan for tailgating before Stamps games. That is at least half the fun of going to these games and is a big part of watching professional football both in cfl and nfl

[polak]

I seriously doubt that soccer is popular enough in Calgary to attract an MLS team. It's a niche.

I don't think it's as small of a niche as you think.

Calgary has a terrible record of supporting amateur leagues but my gut tells me an actual MLS team would draw decently.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Here is my prediction: CalgaryNEXT refers to getting the next Olympics in line. I saw all the predicted dates on the last page but would the completions line up for the available games?

I thought about an Olympic bid being part of this but don't forget that Calgary getting it here would doom any chance of Toronto getting the Summer Games. Since T.O. is clearly are positioning themselves for a bid after the PanAm games, the Feds might not want to back something that threatens vote rich Toronto at this stage.

[HOWITZER]

Here is my prediction: CalgaryNEXT refers to getting the next Olympics in line. I saw all the predicted dates on the last page but would the completions line up for the available games?

Also re: the seat licenses: KK stated in a STH meeting I went to this past season that they will not be using that line of revenue.

Considering the negative attention around the costs of hosting the olympics, I don't see why they would hitch their wagon to a public relations nightmare and then try and get money for it.

[morgin]

This is entirely anecdotal, but from talking to people I know, it seems at least somewhat of a common theme. I will happily spend money on tickets for professional sports at a "top" level, because usually half of why I am going is for the pro sports atmosphere. CFL I have seasons. I go to a lot of Flames games. I would happily get myself tickets for an MLB baseball team if Calgary had one. I would happily get MLS tickets. I do not care about and don't have a history of supporting lower tier leagues. Never seen a minor pro baseball game in Calgary and probably won't. Don't care about lower tier soccer. I go to hitmen games when the tickets are free but don't really enjoy the atmosphere enough to pay for it. I realize this makes me kind of a ####ty sports fan, but it is what it is.

So, assuming there are lots of people like me, MLS could probably do ok where a lower tier league team may not.

[mhsyyc]

Or they'll announce the Kickstarter campaign.

Or a crowdfunding campaign

[Looch City]

Geez, if we combine that with the roadwork of Crowchild & Bow Trail, we're looking at a 2+ Billion project here.

You know what, forget the arena. Just fix Crowchild and Bow Trail. :bag:

[mhsyyc]

I don't think it's as small of a niche as you think.

Calgary has a terrible record of supporting amateur leagues but my gut tells me an actual MLS team would draw decently.

Assuming MLS isn't an amateur league. If I want to see past their prime Euros running around a field ill just go back to Greece.

[polak]

Assuming MLS isn't an amateur league. If I want to see past their prime Euros running around a field ill just go back to Greece.

I'd say it's quickly becoming 2nd tier worldwide. By the time this project is built and if it continues it's pace of growth, I would not be surprised at all if it was competing for players with the big European leagues.

[corporatejay]

I just hope there is a plan for tailgating before Stamps games. That is at least half the fun of going to these games and is a big part of watching professional football both in cfl and nfl



I find tailgating lame. If you don't have an in with someone you can't partake. A district with restaurants and bars is the better way to go. Seattle has very little tailgating (compared to say, Arizona) but the bars around and on the way to the Clink are packed for breakfast. It's my favourite part of my annual trip.

[zyzz]

Hopefully they have some renderings. Excited to see what they've come up with. I'm sure CP will be livid no matter what.

[hockey.modern]

I doubt we see any renderings, we are probably more likely to see a blueprint and all the details of what is going to come.

[zyzz]

I doubt we see any renderings, we are probably more likely to see a blueprint and all the details of what is going to come.

oh ok

[jayswin]

I doubt we see any renderings, we are probably more likely to see a blueprint and all the details of what is going to come.

A blueprint? You think the Flames are releasing a blueprint to the fans to show the design? That's awesome! :w00t:

I thought the fans that believed we wouldn't see renderings at this event were hilarious enough, but then someone comes along and says we won't see renderings, we'll see blueprints.

"Hey guys, welcome to the event, sorry we wanted to show you guys some nice renderings, but unfortunately they weren't ready, so if everyone could go ahead and crowd around these blueprint plans we've been working on.

We'd appreciate if those fans in attendance that have experience working with blueprints could explain the ins and outs to those that don't."

[The Familia]

Excited and nervous! The fieldhouse is what really has me perplexed. As I mentioned before, if it is a cheap corrugated metal tin shed, I am not interested. If it is a full-on football stadium with other facilities and amenities attached like has been suggested with UNLV's project, I'm in. The arena has to be better than Edmonton's. If it isn't the project is a failure! Overall, I'm going to expect being underwhelmed and hoping to be surprised and blown away.

[Resolute 14]

I'd say it's quickly becoming 2nd tier worldwide. By the time this project is built and if it continues it's pace of growth, I would not be surprised at all if it was competing for players with the big European leagues.

Second tier, but behind about a dozen other leagues.

Still, you are right. MLS would probably be decently supported here. The big problem is that Calgary would be a null draw for just about every other team in the league, and negative for US TV. Those are high hurdles to overcome, even if MLS went up to 30 teams.

[Fire]

200 million is a drop in the bucket the way the City spends money. I hope Nenshi and city council don't act like cheapskates when the time comes.

[hockey.modern]

A blueprint? You think the Flames are releasing a blueprint to the fans to show the design? That's awesome! :w00t:

I thought the fans that believed we wouldn't see renderings at this event were hilarious enough, but then someone comes along and says we won't see renderings, we'll see blueprints.

"Hey guys, welcome to the event, sorry we wanted to show you guys some nice renderings, but unfortunately they weren't ready, so if everyone could go ahead and crowd around these blueprint plans we've been working on.

We'd appreciate if those fans in attendance that have experience working with blueprints could explain the ins and outs to those that don't."


Well I don't mean blueprint but more of a birds eye view of the area it's being built and where everything will go. Etc

[Freeway]

2026 bids open in late 2017. The timelines could work.

[chedder]

I find tailgating lame. If you don't have an in with someone you can't partake. A district with restaurants and bars is the better way to go. Seattle has very little tailgating (compared to say, Arizona) but the bars around and on the way to the Clink are packed for breakfast. It's my favourite part of my annual trip.
Agree that the way they do it at McMahon sucks but, as you say, Arizona has a great atmosphere. Denver too. Tailgating is football. Restaurants and bars are just that and it doesn't surprise me Seattle, doesn't tailgate. Lame bandwagon fans that live on the upper west coast, much like their neighbor to the north. I would bet most stamps fans would love to see an expanded area.

[PaperBagger'14]

I've heard from a slightly better than Orange Julius source that there has been significant headway made on the design but perhaps not the location. This source gave very limited details in a brief and non formal chat, but my gut instinct tells me that there will be a rendering released. If a mod wishes to contact me via PM I can provide some context and give background details on how the chat went down.

[morgin]

Agree that the way they do it at McMahon sucks but, as you say, Arizona has a great atmosphere. Denver too. Tailgating is football. Restaurants and bars are just that and it doesn't surprise me Seattle, doesn't tailgate. Lame bandwagon fans that live on the upper west coast, much like their neighbor to the north. I would bet most stamps fans would love to see an expanded area.

I love how you went from "you have a point" to "######y latte sippers and their bandwagon fanbase hurrrr durrrrr" in 5 and a half lines. That's impressive!

[Bunk]

200 million is a drop in the bucket the way the City spends money. I hope Nenshi and city council don't act like cheapskates when the time comes.

The question is where to find say $200m capital. The city will need to extend the infamous $52m tax room to 30 years to pay for its 1/3 share of Green Line LRT now that the Feds stepped up. Beyond that, remember that the vast majority of capital funding comes from levies (for specific infrastructure) utility rates (for utilities) and especially grants from the Province and the Feds. MSI in this 10 year program is completely spoken for, gas taxes can only be used for Transportation. For recreational and community infrastructure, the City had no sources until in 2011 when it took $42m in tax room to create the Community Investment Fund. It's spoken for over the next 10 years I believe for projects like the Central Library, the 4 major rec centres under construction and a bunch of lifecycle maintenance of pools and stuff.

It's easy to say don't be cheapskates, it's another to actually come up with that amount of cash when all the current money is totally spoken for. I think the best hope is whatever the NDP replace MSI with for a general ongoing municipal grant program for capital projects. The current MSI program expires in 2017 I believe.

Not straight forward.

[morgin]

Set up a City of Calgary fieldhouse funding kickstarter

[Addick]

That and the other Canadian cities had shown clear support for soccer at lower levels prior to getting a MLS team. Calgary, not so much. I just don't think there's enough true support for a soccer team in this city.

While the Impact and Whitecaps were well supported prior to the arrival of the MLS, Toronto wasn't head over heels in love with the Lynx. Nevertheless, Calgary is yet to reach the level of support required for an MLS franchise. It's not a bad thing as it provides an opportunity for Foothills to evolve like a proper club rather than a made up franchise like TFC.


200 million is a drop in the bucket the way the City spends money. I hope Nenshi and city council don't act like cheapskates when the time comes.

Exactly! It probably won't have to go through the extreme scrutiny that they put the $7.1M cycle tracks through...

[corporatejay]

Agree that the way they do it at McMahon sucks but, as you say, Arizona has a great atmosphere. Denver too. Tailgating is football. Restaurants and bars are just that and it doesn't surprise me Seattle, doesn't tailgate. Lame bandwagon fans that live on the upper west coast, much like their neighbor to the north. I would bet most stamps fans would love to see an expanded area.


Yeah, Arizona was cool to look at, and probably great if you had a spot, but if you were an outsider (like me) I didn't get to hang out with those guys and play Madden all day. I feel more included at a bar.

[Dion]

I'm just going for the free lunch


https://dailydetoxify.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/tumblr_mqj4o6zpmz1qfywy0o1_r2_400.gif

[krazycanuck]

tailgating is fun, but it's also not necessary if the stadium is in a great area that can offer more than that. The fact is the stadium is going in an urban environment, and vast expanses of parking lots to allow tailgating are not available and not functional. As long as it offers either a great entertainment district or tailgating it works fine. If it has no place to tailgate in a crappy neighbourhood, you're watching a game at Commonwealth Stadium and that would be awful.

Seattle has limited tailgating and I've never done it there, but I never felt like part of the experience was missing because I could walk for 3 minutes and be in Pioneer Square to have some drinks pre and post game. It's also the same thing in San Diego for the Padres field. The nice thing about all of those urban stadiums are it's easy to keep the fun rolling and the vibe is way better than it would be to jump in your car and drive to the local Boston Pizza post-game.

Give me Centurylink field over Qualcomm stadium anyday.

[Addick]

Yeah, Arizona was cool to look at, and probably great if you had a spot, but if you were an outsider (like me) I didn't get to hang out with those guys and play Madden all day. I feel more included at a bar.

Parking Lot < Pub

However, it probably depends on the crowd in the end.

[heep223]

I don't think it's as small of a niche as you think.

Calgary has a terrible record of supporting amateur leagues but my gut tells me an actual MLS team would draw decently.


We all played soccer as kids but I've never overheard anybody talking about MLS. Never had a conversation myself. Never seen an MLS jersey in the city. Never even met anyone who has mentioned MLS in more than passing. I lived in Vancouver and people barely knew who the Whitecaps were and that's a way bigger, more multicultural city.

It's a niche sport in our city. Similar to lacrosse. Which is fine! But don't kid yourself.

[troutman]

I'd say it's quickly becoming 2nd tier worldwide. By the time this project is built and if it continues it's pace of growth, I would not be surprised at all if it was competing for players with the big European leagues.

Doesn't the MLS play spring/summer, but all other domestic leagues are fall/winter? The MLS season conflicts with international tournaments.

[shogged]

There are more minor soccer players in Calgary than minor hockey, plus the price level of MLS is very family friendly. If you can work the schedule so you're not competing with the stampeders, I really don't see a problem with the team operating here.

I think the hold back will be MLS and their desire for soccer specific stadiums.

[jmac98]

Ugly??? I think that bridge is one of the coolest things in the entire city. Calgary finally built something that belongs in the 21st century.

Art is very subjective to the beholder, so a difference of opinion is just fine. I don't personally like the bridge myself, nor care for the blue ring street light, but to each their own.

The thing about the bridge is its already falling apart. Three years or whatever in, thats not good.

[Tyler]

The thing about the bridge is its already falling apart. Three years or whatever in, thats not good.

You have no idea what you're talking about

[johnnybegaudreau]

I think some are overestimating on the costs of building a fully functional roofed stadium/fieldhouse here. In 2010 some CFL franchise (arguably the stamps although the company denied it) did up a 28,000 seat stadium expandable to 40k I think it was CEI architecture. It's out there on google you can look it up. The predicted cost was 114million for the stadium and 136 million with a roof. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say add 100-150 million to this cost which will cover inflation and to cover other costs like making it completely convertible for a multitude of events and sports. So essentially what you're doing is agreeing to allow the public to use the stadium/filedhouse the 90% of the time that the Stamps aren't using it. City gets a much needed facility, Flames entertainment group gets a new shiny home for the stamps the combination of that and them building their arena in WV sparks redevelopment of that area forces the city/province and feds to get together and work out infrastructure and contamination clean up in the area eventually. IN my opinon there isn't a better partner for the city than the flames SEG they are good people and do good work in the city. We can be proud of our ownership here unlike up north.

[jmac98]

You have no idea what you're talking about

It was a feature story on Global News two nights ago.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Bridge is great.

Sorry all, didn't meant to ruffle feathers.

[Ozy_Flame]

There are more minor soccer players in Calgary than minor hockey, plus the price level of MLS is very family friendly. If you can work the schedule so you're not competing with the stampeders, I really don't see a problem with the team operating here.

I think the hold back will be MLS and their desire for soccer specific stadiums.

Get it ready for MLS size, have a PDL or NASL team play there if possible, and test the market. Get Calgary involved in the Amway Canadian Championships for exposure, and get that rivalry going with FC Edmonton. Heck we already have the Foothills SC, and it's in a league that is considered the developmental league for MLS, including winning games this year against the Timbers and Whitecaps U-23 teams.

There's just never been a stage for a pro soccer team to perform on; hopefully this could be it.

[Finger Cookin]

It was a feature story on Global News two nights ago.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Bridge is great.

Sorry all, didn't meant to ruffle feathers.

There's nothing on the Global News Calgary website. Are you talking about the vandalism repairs?

[hockey.modern]

It was a feature story on Global News two nights ago.



Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Bridge is great.



Sorry all, didn't meant to ruffle feathers.


What's wrong with the bridge?

[Finger Cookin]

There's been some vandalism on it recently. So, you know, it's crumbling, falling apart, and unsafe for use. I think.

[jmac98]

There's nothing on the Global News Calgary website. Are you talking about the vandalism repairs?

It was in the same story as that, talking about the corrosion and how the floor is lifting etc.

Folks, I again apologize. My initial line was a joke about building something ugly and calling it art to get a dollar % from the city. It was meant in jest, and I was thinking of the blue ring when I wrote it. Someone else associated my reply to the candy cane bridge, and I responded in kind since I don't find the bridge terribly appealing - but tried not to undermine the fellows opinion citing art is subjective. This then reminded me of the news story a few nights ago about how the bridge is breaking down and needing upkeep in only 3 years.

Sorry all, I didn't mean to steer things off course.

[Finger Cookin]

Off course is what CP does and takes pride in.

[Cambardi]

City accepting bids for repair work on Peace Bridge.

http://www.newstalk770.com/2015/08/10/city-accepting-bids-for-repair-work-on-peace-bridge/

[Looch City]

No one is asking the important questions here:

Will the arena be accessible via redundant pedestrian bridges?

[hockey.modern]

City accepting bids for repair work on Peace Bridge.

http://www.newstalk770.com/2015/08/10/city-accepting-bids-for-repair-work-on-peace-bridge/


Repair work as in vandalism and cracks.

[Violator]

No one is asking the important questions here:

Will the arena be accessible via redundant pedestrian bridges?

From the images I have seen they are actually doubling the number of pedestrian bridges

[Cambardi]

Completely agree. However I believe this may be what Tyler was referring to.

[hockey.modern]

I just hope the district plans will also include a revamp of the roadwork for Crowchild and Bow Trail. With the bottleneck already I can't see the traffic with 2 top-end facilities in the area as well. That would be terrible traffic in that area.

[krazycanuck]

I was looking at some friends photos from a concert at the Saddledome tonight and noticed the scoreboard was dismantled. Is this something they're doing to allow heavier loads To be secured to the roof for concerts during summer? Seemed odd that the frame was there but all the scoreboard panels were off. Or they're replacing things with the latest and greatest... Which is also weird to sink a bunch of money into something like that if they think they'll be in a new rink in a few years.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Late to the discussion, but does an amateur sports field house need to be downtown? Placing it where McMahon Stadium currently sits makes sense to me (the University can also utilize it).

[#-3]

Calgary is a small market in North America (Twin Cities twice as big):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_urban_agglomerations_in_North_ America


So Calgary is 59th on the list.

It's 3-4 years out of date, Calgary is offically 20% larger now. probably having passed about 4 Canadian/American Cities on the list.

There are 17 cities ahead of Calgary on the list that are not in the US or Canada.

Calgary is already the ~38th largest city in Canada/US and still has one of the fastest growth rates among those cities. It's pretty reasonable to think we will be at or near the top 30 in 8-10 years.

Assuming MLS wants to follow the model of top tier North American sports they will probably aim to end up around 30-40 teams eventually. Calgary will never have a NBA, MLB, or NFL team. So 60% of the competition for top tier team sports is out of the question in this market

The MLS is already starting to develop a strong Western Canadian division, largely due to the other two cities sharing many of the same factors.

Really there is no reason to believe that Calgary isn't the prefect type of city, (especially if they build an indoor stadium capable of supporting live grass, like Las Vegas). We will have to see what it looks like, but Muta's post lead me to believe that The Calgary Flames Entertainment Group feel it is worth there while to prepare to bid on an MLS franchise.

[corporatejay]

Sorry but PDL won't work here, NASL might if it's marketed as a 'get our feet off the ground to get an MLS team down the line" type thing, but there is no way you're going to pack in thousands for what amounts to third tier soccer in North America (which is already second/third tier soccer).

[morgin]

I was looking at some friends photos from a concert at the Saddledome tonight and noticed the scoreboard was dismantled. Is this something they're doing to allow heavier loads To be secured to the roof for concerts during summer? Seemed odd that the frame was there but all the scoreboard panels were off. Or they're replacing things with the latest and greatest... Which is also weird to sink a bunch of money into something like that if they think they'll be in a new rink in a few years.

Could just be some maintenance work on the panels. Some were starting to burn out/go bad.

[hockey.modern]

Late to the discussion, but does an amateur sports field house need to be downtown? Placing it where McMahon Stadium currently sits makes sense to me (the University can also utilize it).


Doesn't need to. I would assume McMahon would now be solely used for the Dino's and University use while the field house will be for the new Stampeders facility and public use

[#-3]

Late to the discussion, but does an amateur sports field house need to be downtown? Placing it where McMahon Stadium currently sits makes sense to me (the University can also utilize it).

If the Flames are selling this, they will say this could service both Universities in Calgary. 10 minutes or less from both campuses for 90% of the day, there is about an hour every day when 10 minutes would be pretty hard from MRU.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Doesn't need to. I would assume McMahon would now be solely used for the Dino's and University use while the field house will be for the new Stampeders facility and public use

McMahon will be torn down in that case. The Dinos as sole tenant would be a major money drain.

[LanceUppercut]

McMahon will be torn down in that case. The Dinos as sole tenant would be a major money drain.

And then the University can develop a super valuable plot of land that is near an existing LRT stop.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Just trying to imagine all that real estate crammed into that footprint. Presumably there'll be retail, hotel and condo developments on top of the arena/stadium/fieldhouse.

[DirtyMike]

So Calgary is 59th on the list.

It's 3-4 years out of date, Calgary is offically 20% larger now. probably having passed about 4 Canadian/American Cities on the list.

There are 17 cities ahead of Calgary on the list that are not in the US or Canada.

Calgary is already the ~38th largest city in Canada/US and still has one of the fastest growth rates among those cities. It's pretty reasonable to think we will be at or near the top 30 in 8-10 years.

Assuming MLS wants to follow the model of top tier North American sports they will probably aim to end up around 30-40 teams eventually. Calgary will never have a NBA, MLB, or NFL team. So 60% of the competition for top tier team sports is out of the question in this market

The MLS is already starting to develop a strong Western Canadian division, largely due to the other two cities sharing many of the same factors.

Really there is no reason to believe that Calgary isn't the prefect type of city, (especially if they build an indoor stadium capable of supporting live grass, like Las Vegas). We will have to see what it looks like, but Muta's post lead me to believe that The Calgary Flames Entertainment Group feel it is worth there while to prepare to bid on an MLS franchise.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "at or near the top" but I see no way that Calgary is near or at the top of the largest cities in Canada and the United States in 8-10 years.

I can't see Calgary ever getting an MLS team. Calgary sports fans are notoriously fickle, and besides the Stamps and Flames, no other teams have gotten any major support. Even those two have gone through some pretty lean times in the last 15 years.

[InglewoodFan]

I was looking at some friends photos from a concert at the Saddledome tonight and noticed the scoreboard was dismantled. Is this something they're doing to allow heavier loads To be secured to the roof for concerts during summer? Seemed odd that the frame was there but all the scoreboard panels were off. Or they're replacing things with the latest and greatest... Which is also weird to sink a bunch of money into something like that if they think they'll be in a new rink in a few years.

Just got home from Mumford & Sons. All the screens are off the Energy Board, all the panels are off the power ring, and most perplexingly - all the Flames banners are missing. The Hitmen and Roughnecks banners are still up, but all the Flames banners are gone.

My theory - the arena announcement is a ruse, they are sneaking out in the middle of the night to move to Seattle.

[Freeway]

Just got home from Mumford & Sons. All the screens are off the Energy Board, all the panels are off the power ring, and most perplexingly - all the Flames banners are missing. The Hitmen and Roughnecks banners are still up, but all the Flames banners are gone.

My theory - the arena announcement is a ruse, they are sneaking out in the middle of the night to move to Seattle.

What a scoop!

[PepsiFree]

I can't see Calgary ever getting an MLS team. Calgary sports fans are notoriously fickle, and besides the Stamps and Flames, no other teams have gotten any major support. Even those two have gone through some pretty lean times in the last 15 years.


Comparing Calgary to the "big three" in our "big three":

NHL - Montreal is unbeatable, but Calgary has consistently matched Toronto in each of the past five years, and done either similar or better numbers than Vancouver.

CFL - Calgary consistently averages higher attendance than Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal (though they are similar with Montreal in regards to % of capacity).

NLL - Calgary averages much better attendance than Vancouver, and about equivalent to Toronto.

All that is with having a population that has 1-4 million LESS people, depending on which city you're looking at. For our population, Calgary supports franchises big (NHL) and small (NLL) as well as any other Canadian city. I think they'd pull in the 19,000 AVG attendance for MLS.

If Montreal, Vancouver, and Toronto are acceptable places for the MLS, so is Calgary. We've proven our ability to support high-level sport similarly and even regularly better than those cities. I just don't like the outdated myth that Calgary is a bad place for major sports.

[polak]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "at or near the top" but I see no way that Calgary is near or at the top of the largest cities in Canada and the United States in 8-10 years.

I can't see Calgary ever getting an MLS team. Calgary sports fans are notoriously fickle, and besides the Stamps and Flames, no other teams have gotten any major support. Even those two have gone through some pretty lean times in the last 15 years.

Cant compare support for minor league teams vs. more respected leagues. Our support for the Flames, Stamos and Roughnecks has been solid relative to their respective leagues.

Either way I hope the rumors are true and the Flames are going after an MLS franchise. It'd be great for the city overall and it makes sense that they would. Guess we will find out Tuesday.

[polak]

Just got home from Mumford & Sons. All the screens are off the Energy Board, all the panels are off the power ring, and most perplexingly - all the Flames banners are missing. The Hitmen and Roughnecks banners are still up, but all the Flames banners are gone.

My theory - the arena announcement is a ruse, they are sneaking out in the middle of the night to move to Seattle.

Even more ammo for my theory that the arena is already built!

[pylon]

Kinda disappointed this project is named after cheap Chinese Walmart bikes.

Lame.

[Dion]

I suspect that when this new arena is built the common folk will not be able to afford tickets.