Driving a slow car fast (e.g. Abarth) VS Driving a fast car slow

[Sliver]

Okay, last week I took a wicked little car on a test drive. I've always preferred pure horsepower over handling (it can be very expensive if you want both). For example, my daily driver is an AWD 340 HP 300C and my fun car is a Mustang GT. Neither one of those cars is known for being very nimble, but they can accelerate like mad.

Anyway, I test drove a Fiat 500 Abarth. The base Fiat 500 has 100 horsepower or something, there is a Turbo with 130 horsepower, then there is the Abarth with 160 horsepower. 0-60 is nothing to write home about at 6.7 seconds (http://www.zeroto60times.com/Fiat-0-60-mph-Times.html), but peppy for sure. I think this is one of those cars that the 0-60 doesn't do it justice, though.

It's a blast to drive this thing. Corners are fun, the sound is cool (the exhaust snaps, crackles and occasionally backfires), the interior is fun and roomy enough for a 6'3" dude like me. It's only available in stick, which is awesome. I think you can get into one for less than $30K, although I'd only buy one used in a few years for ~$10K.

Pic:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x22/1987MustangGT50/fiat-500-abarth_key_6_zps831bbfea.jpg (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/1987MustangGT50/media/fiat-500-abarth_key_6_zps831bbfea.jpg.html)

Commercial with hot chick:
siWVgAzhFC8

Exhaust clip (I promise this doesn't come close to doing it justice):
4CbeY9w63b0

In a way, I think it'd be more fun driving this around town in a relatively legal fashion versus driving a super car around town using only about 15% of its potential. What do you guys think of this thing? Any other fun little cars like this that you'd probably get more out of than something that is technically better on paper?

[Rathji]

I drive a car to get from one place to another, in a reasonably reliable and affordable fashion. In that respect, this makes a lot more sense to me than a 'super car', whatever that means.

However, I can think of a dozen or so cars off the top of my head that are far better at that, compared to this car.

[Pilsner12]

At first glance I would lump people that drive them with the same group that drives Mini Coopers, Smart Cars and others of the sort. Not to offend anyone who drives any of those but there seems to be certain traits and similarities to those that do.

[Bill Bumface]

At first glance I would lump people that drive them with the same group that drives Mini Coopers, Smart Cars and others of the sort. Not to offend anyone who drives any of those but there seems to be certain traits and similarities to those that do.


Comparing Mini drivers to Smart drivers? Ironhorse is going to murder you in your sleep :w00t:

One of those is performance oriented, one is the furthest from it.

To answer the question, I think it's personal preference. I would love both handling and power, but especially with the other car you have, you could have one more powerful touring car, and one more fun, throw-it-around go-kart car. That seems like a pretty good combo.

[woob]

Great car for city driving - Pretty quick, nimble, and I'd imagine decent mileage. I would definitely drive on as my daily driver.

[Ark2]

However, I can think of a dozen or so cars off the top of my head that are far better at that, compared to this car.

Seems like a dubious claim to make if you have not test driven the Abarth.

[calumniate]

Indeed. This is why go karting is so fun

[Cliche]

e7Uem4gjNY0

[speede5]

One of my favorite cars I have owned was my 03 Mazda P5. They really do know how to translate zoom zoom into fun handling.

I've had camaro's and mustangs, love the acceleration, but handling is way more fun, and you don't get as many tickets!

[DownhillGoat]

I generally prefer handling and agility to the straight line rockets that are pigs in the twistys.

Years ago I had a 924s, which on paper was pretty close to the Fiat (0-60 around 7 sec), but it certainly had enough pep and could lose a lot of other cars on the road at the time once I got into the corners. That thing was super fun.

That being said, something that can handle the corners AND throw you back in your seat is pretty fun too...

Looks wise, I think the Fiats are pretty cool for a small car. My ex had one for a rental car in Victoria a few years ago and she had a blast in it.

[Rathji]

Seems like a dubious claim to make if you have not test driven the Abarth.

I was referring to the affordable part. Test drive or not, I can look at the price tag.

I assume pretty much any car I bought new could provide adequate ability to get myself to work etc without any major reliability concerns.

[Table 5]

One of my favorite cars I have owned was my 03 Mazda P5. They really do know how to translate zoom zoom into fun handling.

I was just coming in to post about this. I had a Protege 5 for a few years, and that thing was awesome. Not a ton of power, but you just kept that thing mashed all the time, and it was a great time.

I'm a huge fan of slow car fast...especially in the city. You can wail on them as much as you want and never really get into troubnle. And if you have skinny tires, it's even better, because it feels faster and more dangerous. Having fun is all about the feeling a car gives you. Powerful cars in the city kind of suck...but the time you have it to a fun speed, you are over the limit or get into traffic.

I think an Abarth would be a hell of a great city car...especially since its small sizes gives you all the other advantages in the city (parking, small size to get in and out of placeS). If I had to commute, that would be one car I'd love to drive.


At first glance I would lump people that drive them with the same group that drives Mini Coopers, Smart Cars and others of the sort. Not to offend anyone who drives any of those but there seems to be certain traits and similarities to those that do.

What an ignorant thing to say. You have clearly not driven a Mini or an Abarth.

[pylon]

You certainly can have power and handling for cheap. Buy a VW GTI. Stock they are pretty quick, spend $800 bucks on an APR tune though, and you will be taking out BMW 335's and Porsche Boxster's.

[Table 5]

You certainly can have power and handling for cheap. Buy a VW GTI. Stock they are pretty quick, spend $800 bucks on an APR tune though, and you will be taking out BMW 335's and Porsche Boxster's.

Not in the handling department. At least not as far as the Boxster is concerned.

[Ironhorse]

That's why we love our MINI Cooper S so much. In JCW trim, it puts out over 200 BHP and goes in and out of corners like the dickens. Off ramps and on ramps are particularly fun, especially if there is an extra curve in them. It is amazing just how connected you feel with the road. The interior is great & very functional, and space is plentiful for a small car; the exhaust also crackles and pops on the overrun, but with a deeper note than the Abarth.

Ya, it's not a Smart car.

[burn_this_city]

Our 2012 GTI is the best daily driver we've owned, my wife and I fight over who gets it. For the money they are one of the best cars out there, you'd have to spend nearly twice as much to get a comparable. I've had a handful of straight line rockets, but they are pretty overrated and cost too much compared to the fun factor.

[Table 5]

The Abarth has a fantastic exhaust note too. Nice throaty sound with those great pops...not unlike a poor-mans Ferrari.

g8Fd47g1PPU

[Table 5]

Pylon, have you ever had a Golf R come through your shop? Curious how that thing compares to the GTI.

[Ironhorse]

We drove a GTI alongside the Cooper S around 2007. While the GTI was fun enough to drive, it felt sluggish going into the corners compared to the MINI and not nearly as smooth. The extra power was not really usable. The Audi A3 was comparable to an old Buick when it came to tight handling, very soft and squishy.

[iggyformayor]

Driving a Golf TDI right now and it's a helluva lot of fun to drive. A tonne of kick off the line and it handles awesome.

[burn_this_city]

Driving a Golf TDI right now and it's a helluva lot of fun to drive. A tonne of kick off the line and it handles awesome.

Wait until the Golf GTD comes to our shores next year. GTI handling with a diesel engine.

[Sliver]

Our 2012 GTI is the best daily driver we've owned, my wife and I fight over who gets it. For the money they are one of the best cars out there, you'd have to spend nearly twice as much to get a comparable. I've had a handful of straight line rockets, but they are pretty overrated and cost too much compared to the fun factor.

I have to take out a GTI again. I owned a 1995 GTI for a year in 2001 because every car magazine ever goes on and on about how awesome they are. I found it to be soooooooooo sloooooooooooow. It handled okay, but when Honda Accords kept taking me off the line without even knowing I was racing, it had to go. I'll give a new one another shot. I'm the only guy I've ever known to be completely underwhelmed by a GTI so maybe I had a dog or something.

[burn_this_city]

The older non-turbo cars weren't very quick, the new ones are awesome, and as Pylon alluded to you can get another 60hp with a tune.

[pylon]

Pylon, have you ever had a Golf R come through your shop? Curious how that thing compares to the GTI.

Golf R is a pretty cool car, but for 10k less, just get a GTI and APR tune the snot out of it, and end up with a quicker lighter car. No AWD, but nothing a set of Hakkapeliitta's can't fix.

[Sliver]

I drive a car to get from one place to another, in a reasonably reliable and affordable fashion. In that respect, this makes a lot more sense to me than a 'super car', whatever that means.

However, I can think of a dozen or so cars off the top of my head that are far better at that, compared to this car.

You honestly don't know what a super car is? Think Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.

The Abarth is designed to be fun to drive. What are the dozen or so cars that are far better at that in this general price range? I can't think of many. Even the Cooper S and GTI are more expensive, but definitely fair comparables. That's two cars. Maybe MazdaSpeed3? That's a fun car and way faster...probably better than the Fiat, but not quite as wild a ride, IMO. Focus ST? I'm not a fan, but they're a respectable car. Maybe you could put the BRZ in this category, too?

[Sliver]

Golf R is a pretty cool car, but for 10k less, just get a GTI and APR tune the snot out of it, and end up with a quicker lighter car. No AWD, but nothing a set of Hakkapeliitta's can't fix.

Yeah, I'm scared of tunes since I tried to tune my 300c and smoke started coming out of the tuner and I thought I fried my computer (turns out I just had to pull a fuse to reset it, but I was sweating balls for an hour while I figured it out). A GTI with an APR tune does sound awesome.

[pylon]

I have to take out a GTI again. I owned a 1995 GTI for a year in 2001 because every car magazine ever goes on and on about how awesome they are. I found it to be soooooooooo sloooooooooooow.

Considering that was a suck ass version with 115 HP (known in the VW world as the 2 point slow), yeah, it was a garbage car, unless of course it was a VR6, which it obviously wasn't, because those weren't slow.

GTI from 2000 on has been awesome, that's when they dropped the 20V 1.8T in as the standard engine. Those things are gnarly with an APR tune, they actually feel more potent than the current 2.0 once tuned, because they have a lot more lag at the bottom.

[Sliver]

Considering that was a suck ass version with 115 HP (known in the VW world as the 2 point slow), yeah, it was a garbage car, unless of course it was a VR6, which it obviously wasn't, because those weren't slow.

GTI from 2000 on has been awesome, that's when they dropped the 20V 1.8T in as the standard engine. Those things are gnarly with an APR tune, they actually feel more potent than the current 2.0 once tuned, because they have a lot more lag at the bottom.

It only had 115 horsepower? Wow, that's about 50 more horsepower than it felt like lol. I'll take a new one out for a test drive. I know it's not fair to dislike them based on my experience with one from 18 years ago.

[burn_this_city]

Yeah, I'm scared of tunes since I tried to tune my 300c and smoke started coming out of the tuner and I thought I fried my computer (turns out I just had to pull a fuse to reset it, but I was sweating balls for an hour while I figured it out). A GTI with an APR tune does sound awesome.

You have to take it to a shop to get the tune done on these cars, it's not a handheld like your 300C. With a tune, the GTI would crush your 300, I know because I've done it to a Charger RT.

[pylon]

We drove a GTI alongside the Cooper S around 2007. While the GTI was fun enough to drive, it felt sluggish going into the corners compared to the MINI and not nearly as smooth. The extra power was not really usable. The Audi A3 was comparable to an old Buick when it came to tight handling, very soft and squishy.

They ironed out all that with the 2010-current MKVI car. To date, that has been the best version IMHO. The 2002 GTI 337 was pretty damn close though. That car was frikkin cool. BBS wheels, genuine Recarro interior, chuck wagon suspension, all the aluminum they could squeeze into the interior, and of course the famous golf ball shift knob:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/flips712/Hot%20Wheels/gtiknob.jpg

[Table 5]

The tune would negate your VW warranty though right? I would be a little nervous about that.

[Sliver]

You have to take it to a shop to get the tune done on these cars, it's not a handheld like your 300C. With a tune, the GTI would crush your 300, I know because I've done it to a Charger RT.

I think my 0-60 is 5.9 (5.5 in the non-AWD). A 2011 GTI is 6.4. That tune must really awaken your GTI to be able to shave a second off the 0-60. You could probably take my Mustang, too.

[pylon]

The tune would negate your VW warranty though right? I would be a little nervous about that.

I cannot comment on that on a public forum, but 'apparently' there are ways around it. I cannot condone it, but I have heard you can get a tune with a mode that de-activates the chip and locks it into stock mode. This is all hear say as I would never condone or recommend such a thing.

[pylon]

I think my 0-60 is 5.9 (5.5 in the non-AWD). A 2011 GTI is 6.4. That tune must really awaken your GTI to be able to shave a second off the 0-60. You could probably take my Mustang, too.

Your car at this altitude will not deliver those numbers, a turbo charged car however will deliver the advertised numbers, as altitude has little or no effect on performance on a forced induction car. Also VW is notorious for under claiming performance numbers. I can guarantee you a stock GTI DSG is quicker than 6.4 secs.

[Sliver]

Your car at this altitude will not deliver those numbers, a turbo charged car however will deliver the advertised numbers, as altitude has little or no effect on performance on a forced induction car. Also VW is notorious for under claiming performance numbers. I can guarantee you a stock GTI DSG is quicker than 6.4 secs.

Okay, I looked up a 2012 GTI 35 DSG and that is 5.4 0-60. Is a 35 DSG just the standard GTI I'd get if I went to VW today to buy it, or is that a special edition of some sort?

[burn_this_city]

That's the regular GTI, 35 anniversary is last years Autobahn with cloth seats. The DSG is the best transmission I've ever experienced, made the forced switch to auto livable.

[ignite09]

If you want to think out of the box a little bit, and "fun too drive" is your mantra. The Evo 6 will be available for import next year. 280+ horse, awd, standard and not a big car.

[Sliver]

That's the regular GTI, 35 anniversary is last years Autobahn with cloth seats. The DSG is the best transmission I've ever experienced, made the forced switch to auto livable.

No way, that's much more impressive than I thought. I'd also jump to auto if it was a daily driver. I didn't drive my Mustang as much this summer just because I never wanted to bother with stick in my commute.

What's a new GTI go for? ~$36K?

[pylon]

30-38k ish

[Red John]

Maybe worth waiting till the spring for the new 7th generation (2015) GTI?

That's supposed to be one hell of a car.

[Jimmy Stang]

I rented a Fiat 500 (just the base variety) in England a few years ago. It was a lot of fun to drive, and was perfect zipping around over there. Quick, responsive, handled like a little race car. I'm 6'1, and it was perfectly comfortable for me. Storage space is very limited as you'd expect, but if you're not often transporting people or things around, it could be a fun little car to have. As a rental for a couple of weeks with no wife, kid, or stuff, it was absolutely perfect.

[Pilsner12]

Comparing Mini drivers to Smart drivers? Ironhorse is going to murder you in your sleep :w00t:

One of those is performance oriented, one is the furthest from it.



I am well aware of the difference between the two cars I was more generalizing the owners of them.

This is not to say that everyone who owns one is like this but I seem to know that they drive said car whether I ask or not.

[Bill Bumface]

Golf R is a pretty cool car, but for 10k less, just get a GTI and APR tune the snot out of it, and end up with a quicker lighter car. No AWD, but nothing a set of Hakkapeliitta's can't fix.

I would disagree on this. The point of AWD on a Golf R isn't for getting around in the snow like a Honda CRV or something, it's to put the power down in all conditions. Take a GTI and go full throttle in a corner exit and it will make you sad, because you'll just spin one tire and start understeering. Put the throttle down in a Golf R, and at the most your rear will step out a little and put a huge smile on your face as you accelerate out of the corner.

FWD cars with power are very disappointing in that scenario. I drove one for a few years and vowed never again.


I cannot comment on that on a public forum, but 'apparently' there are ways around it. I cannot condone it, but I have heard you can get a tune with a mode that de-activates the chip and locks it into stock mode. This is all hear say as I would never condone or recommend such a thing.

If you're talking about the APR chips they can hide your program from a dealer, but for a couple years now VW/Audi Canada has been scanning and collecting data off of the ECUs and can detect any software changes written to them, and all cars that have those changes are now flagged and they are denying warranty based on that flag. It used to be no problem, you could warranty an APR car all day, but it is no longer the case unless they've figured something out very recently to circumvent it.

[Travis Munroe]

Is there a chip for a smart car? Toss it in a car 2 go and you can keep your current car for power and fire up a car 2 go when you want cornering. /sarcasm
I agree with Pylon in the GTI compartment. I test drove a 08 a few years back and if it wasnt for my career/driving people around I would have taken a much closer look at it.
Im also pretty sure that some minor mods with the tune will have it rolling by a boxer both in a straight line and corners.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Focus ST?

[cam_wmh]

Considering that was a suck ass version with 115 HP (known in the VW world as the 2 point slow), yeah, it was a garbage car, unless of course it was a VR6, which it obviously wasn't, because those weren't slow.

GTI from 2000 on has been awesome, that's when they dropped the 20V 1.8T in as the standard engine. Those things are gnarly with an APR tune, they actually feel more potent than the current 2.0 once tuned, because they have a lot more lag at the bottom.

I would disagree on this. The point of AWD on a Golf R isn't for getting around in the snow like a Honda CRV or something, it's to put the power down in all conditions. Take a GTI and go full throttle in a corner exit and it will make you sad, because you'll just spin one tire and start understeering. Put the throttle down in a Golf R, and at the most your rear will step out a little and put a huge smile on your face as you accelerate out of the corner.

FWD cars with power are very disappointing in that scenario. I drove one for a few years and vowed never again.


I can give both perspectives. Hopefully this doesn't stray the conversation too far.

I had a 337/25th GTi w/1.8T (fwd) ~ 200+ hp
I currently have an R32 (awd GTi) with a gt35r ~ 400+awhp

The 337 has a very light engine, and was easily tossable, yet it's loss of traction was felt nearing apex, and it took nimble foot work to find that powerband to pull out of the corner --- when you nailed the exit, super fun -- often though a bit underwhelming.

The awd R32, just sticks. I've really had to push it to kick the ass out a bit, and at that point it's a bit squirrelly & unpredictable. Accelerating out can be an anomoly of course, with the turbo pulling like a freight train --- but what I'm really getting at is the traction. It's very difficult, compared to the FWD GTi, to lose traction in a corner.

I'm quite biased to german cars, but as you've spent a bunch of time in the 300 and the Mustang, you might feel the VW's interior to persuade you in the purchase as well.

Ultimately, the R32 isn't as nimble, when you flick the wrist to dive into a corner, as it's a heavier car, especially up front.
.
Please keep us apprised. I love threads like this. :)

[WCan_Kid]

I've got a chipped 2.0t jetta with some minor suspension work done, it will definitely hang with the boxster while blowing it's doors off in a straight line. Had an older boxster that a buddy and I have gone head to head in couple of times (in a safe, legal manner of course).
The boxster fits the theme of the thread pretty well, it's not fast but one of the most fun vehicles I've ever driven. The rush of winding out an R8, SRT Viper level car is amazing, but you never get to feel it.
Mini's, 500s, Miatas or old CRX's are a blast all the time.

[burn_this_city]

If you're talking about the APR chips they can hide your program from a dealer, but for a couple years now VW/Audi Canada has been scanning and collecting data off of the ECUs and can detect any software changes written to them, and all cars that have those changes are now flagged and they are denying warranty based on that flag. It used to be no problem, you could warranty an APR car all day, but it is no longer the case unless they've figured something out very recently to circumvent it.

TD1 status on your warranty only applies to engine internals. They will still warranty everything else on the car. Any tune has it's risks, but there are thousands of tuned cars running around with no problem. A tune on the stock turbo will be fine 99% of the time.

[Sliver]

I am well aware of the difference between the two cars I was more generalizing the owners of them.

This is not to say that everyone who owns one is like this but I seem to know that they drive said car whether I ask or not.

I think you're out to lunch on this. Nine times out of 10, Cooper S owners are enthusiasts. Mini Coopers (not S) are usually owned by chicks that would have bought a VW Bug if not the Mini.

Smart Car owners are people that look at cars like they're nothing more than an appliance. They probably hate driving and definitely hate themselves.

[cory]

I am a little biased but I have a gti (2013) with apr ecu tune (stage 2), and it is probably the funnest car I have ever driven.. The thing hauls ass when needed and with a little suspension work it will be able to corners while hammering on it. And all this still costs less than a golf r.

I had the worries about tuning the car but all the reading I have done basically says Vw has to prove the tune is what caused whatever is wrong with your car. So like if your ecu ####s the bed then obviously you're on the hook but if your water pump goes then it's covered. I tuned my car the day I finished the break in and haven't had an issue. I went stage 2 about 4 months ago and still no problems. And no fiat or mini will keep up to you corners or not... Unless they have tunes I guess haha

[burn_this_city]

Mine is Stage 2 as well, I'm considering the jump to K04 or Stage 3. Sounds like you've been reading up in the same place as me golfmk6.com

[FlamesAddiction]

I miss boxy cars. I don't know why everything has to be a little egg these days, especially for cars that rarely need to go faster than what city traffic will allow.

I loved the Fiats from back in the 1980s.

[theinfinitejar]

Has anybody test driven the Fiesta ST yet? I know Top Gear loved it.

[cory]

Mine is Stage 2 as well, I'm considering the jump to K04 or Stage 3. Sounds like you've been reading up in the same place as me golfmk6.com

Yup there and vwvortex I find the most helpful.. I'm also contemplating doing k04 when there spring sale happens but it's so damn expensive. I would like to find someone in town that has done to see if it is worth it

[shane_c]

I used to have a 96 Mustang GT with quite a few modifications on it, including some suspension work. It was a lot of fun! Since then I've had a few uninspiring cars but if I was in the market I don't think I'd go the Mustang route again.

Right now I drive a 07 Forester which gets me around and is amazing in the winter. I often think that it'd be nice to have a fun car too but the budget doesn't allow it. When my Forester gets run into the ground I'm thinking of going with a WRX hatch. That way I'll have a quick car, will be able to drive it in the winter and still have the practicality of a hatch. I haven't driven one so I'm not sure what they handle like, but assuming it's pretty good.

I do really like the looks of the VW GTI but my 2000 Jetta still leaves a sour taste in my mouth, even after all these years.

[polak]

How about fast car fast?

My requirements for a car:

- AWD
- +250 hp
- Manual transmission

Affordable cars that fall into this category are rare however. Wrx is about it today and they are more plastic than fisher price cars. There used to be the speed 6 (current car) and the legacy GT spec b....

Looks like if they don't improve the wrx interior when the new generation comes out next year ill probably have to drop the awd requirement. Ill look at the Genesis Coupe or Mustang then....

[cory]

Golf r, or go into a used Audi a4 same engine as gti and then chip it you got yourself 250 awd and they come in standard. or even an s4

[burn_this_city]

Yup there and vwvortex I find the most helpful.. I'm also contemplating doing k04 when there spring sale happens but it's so damn expensive. I would like to find someone in town that has done to see if it is worth it

Same, although I think if I got a taste for it I would definitely do the upgrade.

[polak]

Golf r, or go into a used Audi a4 same engine as gti and then chip it you got yourself 250 awd and they come in standard. or even an s4

After modding my speed 6 into the ground im done with modifying cars unless its factory warranty protected i.e. Dynan or Alpina.

The golf R is DSG unfortunately. I'd rather sacrafice AWD then that clutch pedal :bag:

[Bill Bumface]

The golf R is DSG unfortunately. I'd rather sacrafice AWD then that clutch pedal :bag:

The Golf R was only offered in manual for the MK VI.

I don't think it's officially been announced yet what the transmission choices will be for the MK VII, although the S3 is DSG only, so that may be a sign.

[burn_this_city]

I pray its DSG, I didn't buy the R for that reason. It would be the perfect platform for upgrades with the DSG.

[Table 5]

Ugh, screw DSG. There are enough cars with that crap, leave at least a few fun cars with a stick.

[Bill Bumface]

DSG is jerkier than a manual starting from a stop, and kind of annoying when trying to reverse up a hill to parallel park and it slips on you. At least I can still cling to one downfall to justify my irrational love of manuals.

[burn_this_city]

Ugh, screw DSG. There are enough cars with that crap, leave at least a few fun cars with a stick.

I would have agreed with you until a couple years ago. Manual sucks now, it's inferior in every regard, worse performance, poorer gas mileage, money shifts, and terrible at holding higher horsepower. Sure you can buy a performance clutch, but I've had one that made my left leg shake in stop and go traffic. There's a reason companies like Ferrari have basically abandoned the manual, it's a relic and isn't competitive anymore.

[Sliver]

I would have agreed with you until a couple years ago. Manual sucks now, it's inferior in every regard, worse performance, poorer gas mileage, money shifts, and terrible at holding higher horsepower. Sure you can buy a performance clutch, but I've had one that made my left leg shake in stop and go traffic. There's a reason companies like Ferrari have basically abandoned the manual, it's a relic and isn't competitive anymore.

I'm heading this way as well, but for different reasons. I think it's because I'm getting older and the traffic is getting worse in the city. For me a manual is less about fuel economy, performance, etc.; it's about being more a party to the driving experience versus just being a passenger with a steering wheel (an exaggeration). If there was no traffic anywhere I'd take a manual every time, regardless of performance. Now, most of my driving is in traffic and I'm sick of manuals except for those rare times when traffic is light. I know I'd never buy another manual as a daily driver. As a second car I still would for now, but even those days are probably numbered.

[polak]

Put me in the dont care about performance camp. Having a clutch pedal trumps all.

[undercoverbrother]

Put me in the dont care about performance camp. Having a clutch pedal trumps all.

Said 20 year old me.........42 yr old me thinks different....I will never buy another manual it hurts my knees.

[Sliver]

Okay, last week I took a wicked little car on a test drive. I've always preferred pure horsepower over handling (it can be very expensive if you want both). For example, my daily driver is an AWD 340 HP 300C and my fun car is a Mustang GT. Neither one of those cars is known for being very nimble, but they can accelerate like mad.

Anyway, I test drove a Fiat 500 Abarth. The base Fiat 500 has 100 horsepower or something, there is a Turbo with 130 horsepower, then there is the Abarth with 160 horsepower. 0-60 is nothing to write home about at 6.7 seconds (http://www.zeroto60times.com/Fiat-0-60-mph-Times.html), but peppy for sure. I think this is one of those cars that the 0-60 doesn't do it justice, though.

It's a blast to drive this thing. Corners are fun, the sound is cool (the exhaust snaps, crackles and occasionally backfires), the interior is fun and roomy enough for a 6'3" dude like me. It's only available in stick, which is awesome. I think you can get into one for less than $30K, although I'd only buy one used in a few years for ~$10K.

Pic:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x22/1987MustangGT50/fiat-500-abarth_key_6_zps831bbfea.jpg (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/1987MustangGT50/media/fiat-500-abarth_key_6_zps831bbfea.jpg.html)

Exhaust clip (I promise this doesn't come close to doing it justice):
4CbeY9w63b0

In a way, I think it'd be more fun driving this around town in a relatively legal fashion versus driving a super car around town using only about 15% of its potential. What do you guys think of this thing? Any other fun little cars like this that you'd probably get more out of than something that is technically better on paper?

Well, it has been a few years and sure is shat a used Fiat Abarth is now about $10k. I'm Mustangless and thinking about another fun car to own. This one I want to teach my daughter to drive stick with when she's 14 in a year. The thought of a fun car she would enjoy without enough power to wrap it around a lamp pole is very appealing, as is something that I would enjoy to drive, too. FWD is important on this one as it may become hers when she's 16.

Cars I'm considering:


Fiat Abarth Cabrio
Mini Cooper S (possibly convertible)
VW GTI


The GTI would be my first choice if this was going to be my only car; however, I already have a German car that sort of scratches that itch and there's no point in having two similar cars. I am leaning toward the Abarth. Any thoughts? Other cars I should throw on the list for me/her?

[afc wimbledon]

I would have agreed with you until a couple years ago. Manual sucks now, it's inferior in every regard, worse performance, poorer gas mileage, money shifts, and terrible at holding higher horsepower. Sure you can buy a performance clutch, but I've had one that made my left leg shake in stop and go traffic. There's a reason companies like Ferrari have basically abandoned the manual, it's a relic and isn't competitive anymore.


You are dead to me

[nik-]

Well, it has been a few years and sure is shat a used Fiat Abarth is now about $10k. I'm Mustangless and thinking about another fun car to own. This one I want to teach my daughter to drive stick with when she's 14 in a year. The thought of a fun car she would enjoy without enough power to wrap it around a lamp pole is very appealing, as is something that I would enjoy to drive, too. FWD is important on this one as it may become hers when she's 16.

Cars I'm considering:


Fiat Abarth Cabrio
Mini Cooper S (possibly convertible)
VW GTI


The GTI would be my first choice if this was going to be my only car; however, I already have a German car that sort of scratches that itch and there's no point in having two similar cars. I am leaning toward the Abarth. Any thoughts? Other cars I should throw on the list for me/her?

get an Audi RS3 you coward.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

This is pretty much why I bought a Cayman over other options in the same range. You don't spend the whole time driving it on road while thinking "this car clearly wants to go much much faster than this".

Anyway, why is FWD important? Also, how much practicality do you really need?

[Sliver]

This is pretty much why I bought a Cayman over other options in the same range. You don't spend the whole time driving it on road while thinking "this car clearly wants to go much much faster than this".

Anyway, why is FWD important? Also, how much practicality do you really need?

FWD is important so it can be a good winter car for a new driver. I mean that as FWD vs RWD. AWD would be great, but not for the price range/style of car I'm thinking.

Practicality is completely unimportant.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I honestly don't think the FWD / RWD thing makes all that much difference on snow if you have appropriate tires. I was going to say just get an MX5. But if you're really stuck on the FWD you could get a Civic R... provided that you never actually, you know, look at it from the outside. Or a Veloster, maybe? Veloster N?

On the AWD front you could probably do a pre-2014 WRX STI hatch. Or even just a normal WRX.

[burn_this_city]

You are dead to me

Haha, I was just laughing at my younger self. I daily a manual M235i and definitely prefer it over the DSG in my wife's old GTI. The facts of my statement are true, but I don't regret driving the inferior version.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yeah, this summer I crashed my Datsun, sold my automatic 370z and my RX350 and replaced them all with manual transmission cars. The 370z's auto was actually pretty good and way, way faster than a stick shift (especially driven by me), but it's just nowhere near as much fun.

All manual all day.

[blankall]

You're much better off with a high powered subaru, Mini, VW, or even Ford Focus ST if you want some fun city driving. Those cars will also allow you to go onto a major road/highway without fearing for your life.

I drive Smart Cars with Car2Go...yes it's occasionally fun to drive what is essentially a Go-Kart with a more protective bodykit. However, as a regular or daily driver it'd be a nightmare, and I'd never drive a sizeable distance in one.

OP, I think you're issue may be that your 2 vehicles are both American muscle type cars and kind of boats. Those are great if you want to drive on a straight highway fast. For making frequent turns, get a more rally orientated vehicle.

And no...the Mini and Smart Cars are nothing alike. A supercharged Mini is a lot of fun to drive.

[DownhillGoat]

FWD is important so it can be a good winter car for a new driver. I mean that as FWD vs RWD. AWD would be great, but not for the price range/style of car I'm thinking.I dunno if RWD is a huge issue. I learned on a RWD as a teen (with likely too much power). With good winters I wouldn't say it's worse in winter. I would say it has different characteristics than an FWD, but if that's all she knows (mostly) it shouldn't be a huge issue IMO.

[btimbit]

Never driven an Abarth but I love my GTI for whipping around the city when I'm not in the mood to drive my truck. I'd also look hard at a Focus RS or ST.

Also, I miss pylon

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Once you get into the Focus RS price range, you have a lot of other (imo better) alternatives. Focus ST, though, I've heard, is great bang for the buck.

[FLAME ENVY]

Well, it has been a few years and sure is shat a used Fiat Abarth is now about $10k. I'm Mustangless and thinking about another fun car to own. This one I want to teach my daughter to drive stick with when she's 14 in a year. The thought of a fun car she would enjoy without enough power to wrap it around a lamp pole is very appealing, as is something that I would enjoy to drive, too. FWD is important on this one as it may become hers when she's 16.

Cars I'm considering:


Fiat Abarth Cabrio
Mini Cooper S (possibly convertible)
VW GTI


The GTI would be my first choice if this was going to be my only car; however, I already have a German car that sort of scratches that itch and there's no point in having two similar cars. I am leaning toward the Abarth. Any thoughts? Other cars I should throw on the list for me/her?

Is reliability important to you? Both the Fiat and Mini are amongst the worst choices from a reliability perspective. A Focus/Fiesta ST would be better, and more practical choices comparatively (bot are a lot of fun too).

[nik-]

Haha, I was just laughing at my younger self. I daily a manual M235i and definitely prefer it over the DSG in my wife's old GTI. The facts of my statement are true, but I don't regret driving the inferior version.

The facts of your post were totally correct. No daily driver is getting better performance on their manual than they would on the new autos.

That still doesn't change that driving a manual is so much more enjoyable.

[burn_this_city]

For sure, I had forgotten about that post from 2013 until today, within 5 months I had bought another manual for my daily driver. Unless I lose a leg I think I'll always have at least one manual transmission vehicle.

[Fuzz]

Sliver, their is also something to be said for learning to drive on an imperfect car. A RWD would teach her a few things about winter driving! I learned to shift stick on a tow truck with a clutch requiring half my body weight to push, and a big block 4 speed with a manky shift leaver.


My dad said, "you'll learn on this, and be prepared of anything. Then you can drive the automatic minivan."

[InglewoodFan]

A 2006 or earlier Mini Cooper S is probably slightly better on the reliability front than later generations. The supercharged motor was far more sorted than the turbo that followed. And you can't beat that supercharger whine. Had one (a convertible) for a few years and they are a great slow car to drive fast. On the track at 9/10ths they understeer, but can be pushed pretty hard before they get unsettled. The clutch is a bit fussier than a Honda, but not bad at all.

I keep checking Autotrader for the right one, will probably grab another one eventually.

[afc wimbledon]

The obvious best bet here, assuming you have a garage or a drive way is an old Miata for 5 or 6 grand as a summer car and whatever you use for everyday driving, the Miata stik shift is a thing of joy, its rear wheel and drives like a go kart, the best fun you will ever have driving

[WhiteTiger]

I've always been a 'muscle' guy, and likely always will be. I love the snapback accelleration off the line at the light, and the deep, throaty roar of a V8. I find that the IRS (esp set at sport/track modes) work nicely for the agility I need/want when I'm feeling the need to bomb around corners.

[Table 5]

Cars I'm considering:


Fiat Abarth Cabrio
Mini Cooper S (possibly convertible)
VW GTI




Last year I was considering a very similar lineup. I'm somewhat in the same boat again as I'm looking for a fun and cheapish third car (ie under 15k), that can be my winter beater and still be able to carry two car seats. I keep going back and forth from something small and tossable like these, something offroad oriented (older 4Runner/Land Cruiser/FJ), or a larger coupe/sedan with a big engine (early Lexus SC, Infiniti M45, Merc E300).

On the small car front, I remember when I tried the Abarth, I was a little disappointed. It sounded great, but I was hoping it would be a bit more tossable (plus I wasn't thrilled with the seating position). I really wanted to love it, but just didn't.

The GTI was really nice...but almost too nice, bordering on boring. It also sounded kind of meh.

The Fiesta ST was probably the most fun small car. Horribly ugly/busy interior, but I could see it being a great city car.

The GT86 was actually the best drivers car I tried. It actually reminded me of my Cayman. Probably a nice car for a teen too as it's not crazy powerful.

I think a Mazda 2 could be fun in the city. Too bad they don't make a sporty version. If you want to get weird, maybe you can get a Micra Cup Car (although not sure if they are street legal).

[Table 5]

Burn this City, nice to see you came back to your senses.

[Sliver]

Last year I was considering a very similar lineup. I'm somewhat in the same boat again as I'm looking for a fun and cheapish third car (ie under 15k), that can be my winter beater and still be able to carry two car seats. I keep going back and forth from something small and tossable like these, something offroad oriented (older 4Runner/Land Cruiser/FJ), or a larger coupe/sedan with a big engine (early Lexus SC, Infiniti M45, Merc E300).

On the small car front, I remember when I tried the Abarth, I was a little disappointed. It sounded great, but I was hoping it would be a bit more tossable (plus I wasn't thrilled with the seating position). I really wanted to love it, but just didn't.

The GTI was really nice...but almost too nice, bordering on boring. It also sounded kind of meh.

The Fiesta ST was probably the most fun small car. Horribly ugly/busy interior, but I could see it being a great city car.

The GT86 was actually the best drivers car I tried. It actually reminded me of my Cayman. Probably a nice car for a teen too as it's not crazy powerful.

I think a Mazda 2 could be fun in the city. Too bad they don't make a sporty version. If you want to get weird, maybe you can get a Micra Cup Car (although not sure if they are street legal).

I did the SUV thing semi-recently (few years ago) with an '09 Pathfinder and only kept it for a half a year. I also bought a Wrangler and only kept it for a weekend. I used to have jacked up trucks and did go to Maclean Creek/Waiprous a lot, but after 35 those crap-riding vehicles lose a lot of appeal as DDs.

The Fiesta ST seems like a lot of fun, but I can't get past the immaturity of the interior. The Abarth and Cooper S have pretty whimsical interiors, but something a little more charming about them IMO.

I hear what some guys are saying about RWD with good tires being a safe vehicle, but I think FWD is safer for my daughter so I'm holding strong on that. GT86 is out for that reason, in addition to being too small for me to fit in. For a young person, I like how under powered they are.

Big-engined sedans are great for your needs. Way more pleasant to drive than an SUV, but I really don't like SUVs now, anyway. A big Expedition or something I could do because they ride so pillowy and I like that, but mid-size body-on-frame SUVs are the worst.

If I can get a smokin' deal on a convertible Cooper S, I think that's my preference. Otherwise, I'll get an Abarth. Yes, the drive won't knock your socks off, but the sound will. I think a teenage girl in that thing would have a blast, too, and I'll have fun as well. You're right about the GTI being a bit too buttoned down for an extraneous fun car and I think that comment helped solidify why I was waffling on what didn't feel right about that one.

[burn_this_city]

My mom had a manual Cooper S Convertible for 3 years, it was a trouble free car and a lot of fun. I drove it from Salmon Arm to Vancouver a couple years ago and it was fun to rip down the Coquihalla with the new 120 speed limits. It's basically a go kart with airbags.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Big-engined sedans are great for your needs. Way more pleasant to drive than an SUV, but I really don't like SUVs now, anyway. A big Expedition or something I could do because they ride so pillowy and I like that, but mid-size body-on-frame SUVs are the worst.
This is why wagons are the best. They are essentially sedans, but better in every conceivable way except for a bit of weight, which is totally offset by the aerodynamics and the convenience of the extra storage. Unfortunately, there aren't very many affordable ones made anymore (you're pretty much looking at Mercedes, Audi, BMW or Volvo) and basically none in a manual.

[woob]

Moar wagons please.

https://i.imgur.com/uLnwk7g.jpg

[nik-]

In EU you can still get the RS4 Avant, which would just be hilarious to own. 450hp biturbo wagon? Awesome.

We can't even get the regular Avant over here anymore, just the Allroad with its hideous fender flares.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

In EU you can still get the RS4 Avant, which would just be hilarious to own. 450hp biturbo wagon? Awesome.
Ahem... you can still buy these.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/17q1/674191/2018-mercedes-amg-e63-s-wagon-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-675178-s-original.jpg
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/2018-mercedes-amg-e63-s-wagon-photos-and-info-news

I know someone with a 2014. It does 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. It's absurd.

We can't even get the regular Avant over here anymore, just the Allroad with its hideous fender flares.
Which is still better than the comparable sedan. I just bought a B7 S4 wagon myself. With coilovers and a catback exhaust, it's pretty close to the RS4 of its day.

[Table 5]

Maybe I need to re-asses the Mini Cooper myself. Much like with Land Rover, Ive always ignored them because of the horribly reliability stories/ratings.

Are there any particular years that tend to be better than others?

[Table 5]

The Fiesta ST seems like a lot of fun, but I can't get past the immaturity of the interior. The Abarth and Cooper S have pretty whimsical interiors, but something a little more charming about them IMO.

It's partly why it's a shame that Mazda didn't come out with a sporty equivalent for the 2 (since they are on the same platform). You'd get the same fun car, but it a more mature interior. And I agree about the Abarth/Cooper...I can get behind those interiors. The Fiesta is just a hot mess.

You're right about the GTI being a bit too buttoned down for an extraneous fun car and I think that comment helped solidify why I was waffling on what didn't feel right about that one.

It's a shame that VW doesn't sell the Up! or Polo here, especially in GTI trim. I think those could add back some of the fun factor that's missing in the Golf.

One car you may want to try is the Volvo C30 (especially in R-Design trim). It comes with a stick, and the T5 engine has a really good amount of power. Plus it's a Volvo, so safety and all that for your daughter. Doesn't sound quite as fun as the Abarth, but not many things in this category do.

[nik-]

Ahem... you can still buy these.


I really don't like Mercedes interiors.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I really don't like Mercedes interiors.
Really? What about them don't you like? I find them to be of good quality and largely unremarkable styling-wise - basically, I see nothing to get excited about and nothing to object to.

[Sliver]

I really don't like Mercedes interiors.

Are they finally out of that phase from ~2013 - ???? where they were duct taping iPads to the centre of the console? I can't believe they sold a single car looking like that.

Before that awfulness they were great. My 2012 has a beautiful interior.

[burn_this_city]

Maybe I need to re-asses the Mini Cooper myself. Much like with Land Rover, Ive always ignored them because of the horribly reliability stories/ratings.

Are there any particular years that tend to be better than others?

The one we had was pretty low mileage and only summer driven, the car is still a BMW so I think being judicious about maintenance is key. It did eat the factory summer tires fairly quickly, but they live on a windy road and my mom drives fast.

[Sliver]

Really? What about them don't you like? I find them to be of good quality and largely unremarkable styling-wise - basically, I see nothing to get excited about and nothing to object to.

It seemed like amateur hour at MB the way they were tacking on touch screens for a while.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It seemed like amateur hour at MB the way they were tacking on touch screens for a while.
It's still sort of a floating design, but I don't hate it.

https://images.caricos.com/m/mercedes-benz/2018_mercedes-amg_e63/images/2560x1440/2018_mercedes-amg_e63_186_2560x1440.jpg

I think it's more recent than you've suggested though because it's flush / integrated in my friend's 2014:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/28-2014-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-fd.jpg

[Ironhorse]

Maybe I need to re-asses the Mini Cooper myself. Much like with Land Rover, Ive always ignored them because of the horribly reliability stories/ratings.

Are there any particular years that tend to be better than others?


2005-2006 are good, as are the 2005-2008 Convertibles. 2002-2004 Coopers had a crappy Midlands 5 speed. Avoid the CVT Coopers. The 2nd Gen 2007-2012 N14 engine is not very good (it eats timing chain guides), the 2013+ N18 is much better.

[Sliver]

It's still sort of a floating design, but I don't hate it.

https://images.caricos.com/m/mercedes-benz/2018_mercedes-amg_e63/images/2560x1440/2018_mercedes-amg_e63_186_2560x1440.jpg

I think it's more recent than you've suggested though because it's flush / integrated in my friend's 2014:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2013/02/28-2014-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-fd.jpg

I like that. It's this I can't stand:

https://imgur.com/rJjUTGV.png

[Sliver]

2005-2006 are good, as are the 2005-2008 Convertibles. 2002-2004 Coopers had a crappy Midlands 5 speed. Avoid the CVT Coopers. The 2nd Gen 2007-2012 N14 engine is not very good (it eats timing chain guides), the 2013+ N18 is much better.

Bought a 2008 convertible with 6-speed manual and the supercharged engine. It's a JCW version, which gives you better exhaust, different airbox, and a couple of other little things from what I can tell. It has a factory strut tower brace, but I don't know if that's a JCW or just a Cooper S convertible thing. I think the JCW gives a few horsepower, but nothing to write home about. The rear centered dual JCW exhaust looks sick, though, especially when you illuminate the tips by turning on the rear red fog light that sits just above them.

It has 70,000kms, so pretty low mileage, and came with winter tires on nice wheels as well as the factory summer wheels and all seasons. I'm getting all the stripes removed to de-cutify it next week.

I've had it for just a few days, but so far I'm so stoked. Way happier with this than so many other cars I've had as an adult. It's so freaking fun bombing around in it. Go kart handling is the go-to description for these, but there's nothing more apt. It's a blast. My other car is a CLS 550, so this is like half the size, 10x more nimble, and that's so awesome. It looks like a joke in my garage next to the Merc - I have so much room in front of it.

As for speed, it is what I was looking for. Not a rocket, but fast enough that you can wring it out without being illegal. Like I can accelerate through a few gears before I'm at the speed limit. My other car is doing 100 in a few seconds, and that's too fast for casual fun heading out to a movie on a random week night. I think the mini wouldn't be that fun on the highway, but that's not what I bought it for.

The convertible top is great. You can hit the a button to just have it move back a couple feet, creating a targa opening. I didn't even know that until I test drove it, but that is an awesome feature.

As for the Abarth, it just didn't feel "good enough" in that it was kind of cheap feeling and I know I wouldn't like that. The Abarth is one of the best sounding cars out there, but I wanted more out of this toy than just a cool sound.

[Ironhorse]

Welcome to the club!

[Ironhorse]

Bought a 2008 convertible with 6-speed manual and the supercharged engine. It's a JCW version, which gives you better exhaust, different airbox, and a couple of other little things from what I can tell. It has a factory strut tower brace, but I don't know if that's a JCW or just a Cooper S convertible thing. I think the JCW gives a few horsepower, but nothing to write home about. The rear centered dual JCW exhaust looks sick, though, especially when you illuminate the tips by turning on the rear red fog light that sits just above them.
A John Cooper Works version of the Cooper S (JCW), gets you a larger catback stainless exhaust, different airbox (with a flap that opens at 4,500 rpm to allow extra air from the cowl. Bonus: you can also hear supercharger whine better), a lightly ported cylinder head, larger capacity fuel injectors, a 12% smaller supercharger pulley, and an ECU tune. If the JCW kit was factory installed instead of at the dealer, you'll also have larger red JCW front calipers. If your strut tower brace goes from one strut tower to the other, it will be a dealer JCW accessory item that was available to all MINIs. All convertibles (designation: R52) will have tiny braces on each side of the strut tower going down towards the frame to make up some rigidity.

[Travis Munroe]

I like that. It's this I can't stand:

https://imgur.com/rJjUTGV.png

Couldn't agree more.

I had a 2012 C class with the built-in nav and when it came time to get a new one, I couldn't wrap my head around how much I disliked the new style. It looked like an ipad being supported by a third party vent clip holder.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I actually really hate those H-vents in practice. I don't think they look terrible but every time I use a Car2Go Mercedes I'm irritated by them.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Basically it's the logic behind the Miata...just enough power...tons of fun and a manual transmission to keep you engaged rowing through gears.

LWcGJTd1fI4
hJUltR6UYSo

[Sliver]

A John Cooper Works version of the Cooper S (JCW), gets you a larger catback stainless exhaust, different airbox (with a flap that opens at 4,500 rpm to allow extra air from the cowl. Bonus: you can also hear supercharger whine better), a lightly ported cylinder head, larger capacity fuel injectors, a 12% smaller supercharger pulley, and an ECU tune. If the JCW kit was factory installed instead of at the dealer, you'll also have larger red JCW front calipers. If your strut tower brace goes from one strut tower to the other, it will be a dealer JCW accessory item that was available to all MINIs. All convertibles (designation: R52) will have tiny braces on each side of the strut tower going down towards the frame to make up some rigidity.

You're like a Mini Cooper encyclopedia. Thanks for the info. That's hilarious it already has the 12% smaller supercharger pulley and I'm glad you told me because I've been watching videos on how to do that mod. Would have been a waste of time/money.

I don't have the red JCW front calipers, so it sounds like mine was a dealer installed kit.

[Sliver]

Basically it's the logic behind the Miata...just enough power...tons of fun and a manual transmission to keep you engaged rowing through gears.

LWcGJTd1fI4
hJUltR6UYSo

Doug Demuro and The Straight Pipes - those are the only two YouTube channels I watch religiously as they come out. Love that Targa Miata.

[Scornfire]

I just bought a 2009 Nissan Maxima and I am absolutely smitten. It gets great fuel economy, absolutely RIPS and has all the bells and whistles, for a very very reasonable price. Can let it run Automatic in regular or Sport Mode or paddle shift it like a manual. It's such a fun car I honestly can't believe it isn't more popular

I should add she already has 230k on her and still runs beautifully

[Fuzz]

You're like a Mini Cooper encyclopedia. Thanks for the info. That's hilarious it already has the 12% smaller supercharger pulley and I'm glad you told me because I've been watching videos on how to do that mod. Would have been a waste of time/money.

I don't have the red JCW front calipers, so it sounds like mine was a dealer installed kit.
Wheeler Dealers did a rebuild of one of these, was a good episode. I think it was something like 140 hours to do the service of the supercharger and engine which is required at 100 000 miles or something.

[Sliver]

Wheeler Dealers did a rebuild of one of these, was a good episode. I think it was something like 140 hours to do the service of the supercharger and engine which is required at 100 000 miles or something.

That's nuckin futs, although it is 90,900 kms away for me so I'm not worried about it yet. I'm surprised they couldn't build a whole car in 140 hours.

[8 Ball]

I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?

[BigNumbers]

Gotta be cheaper to buy a factory crate motor and just replace the unit in 10-15 hours, vs 140 for service...

[Table 5]

I didn't realize Mini was a synonym for Bugatti. 140 hours is nuts.

[Fuzz]

It's a BMW motor, so not super surprising.

[Fuzz]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6iitkp


Here is the episode.

[burn_this_city]

I watched that episode, I think the 140 hours was to replace the roof liner and everything.

[chedder]

I just bought a 2009 Nissan Maxima and I am absolutely smitten. It gets great fuel economy, absolutely RIPS and has all the bells and whistles, for a very very reasonable price. Can let it run Automatic in regular or Sport Mode or paddle shift it like a manual. It's such a fun car I honestly can't believe it isn't more popular

I should add she already has 230k on her and still runs beautifullyI picked up a 2010 as well. Only 100,000k on it. Nice car, loaded too. Yeah, 8l/100km on highway. A buddy told me not to use the paddle shifters too much as it stresses the already suspect cvt transmission. Not sure if any truth to that.
Enjoy.

[InglewoodFan]

I watched that episode, I think the 140 hours was to replace the roof liner and everything.

I just watched the video, it's only 23 hours (at 36:58 of the video). Not sure where 140 hours came from. Engine service was only about 12-16 of those hours I bet. Nothing looked too crazy to do.

[Fuzz]

I just watched the video, it's only 23 hours (at 36:58 of the video). Not sure where 140 hours came from. Engine service was only about 12-16 of those hours I bet. Nothing looked too crazy to do.
Huh, I must have been thinking of a different episode then, they all start to blend together!


Sorry for that!

[undercoverbrother]

I just bought a 2009 Nissan Maxima and I am absolutely smitten. It gets great fuel economy, absolutely RIPS and has all the bells and whistles, for a very very reasonable price. Can let it run Automatic in regular or Sport Mode or paddle shift it like a manual. It's such a fun car I honestly can't believe it isn't more popular

I should add she already has 230k on her and still runs beautifully

I had a 2003, SE 6 speed manual.

Great vehicle, great fun to drive and went forever, sold it when I couldn't fit the kid's equipment in it anymore.

It had near 300,000km, I have no memory of ever having any work on the clutch.

I miss that car.

[Harju]

I like that. It's this I can't stand:

https://imgur.com/rJjUTGV.png

This seems to be the interior trend. Although I think Mercedes is the most egregious, Audi, Mazda, BMW all have something similar. I think the evolution of this, with carplay, android auto, is that in a couple of years manufacturers will stop offering integrated screens and only supply docking stations for people to supply their own ipads/tablets.

[Bill Bumface]

^That won't work as US vehicles are mandated to have backup cameras now. Cars need a built in screen in order to meet the requirement.

[DownInFlames]

^That won't work as US vehicles are mandated to have backup cameras now. Cars need a built in screen in order to meet the requirement.

I drove a loaner Caravan that didn’t have the infotainment screen so it had the display for the backup camera in the rear view mirror.

I like a nice big screen as long as you get buttons too so you can control stuff without taking your eyes off the road. Hopefully new bendable OLED panels will make screens be able to fit better with interior lines.

[bagofpucks]

[QUOTE=8 Ball;6859604]I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?[/QUOT

Very anecdotal, but I have three friends that have nothing but issues with the same model and year range. All three had fairly major yearly maintenance bills, and the one car wasn’t a complete lemon. I was looking at one when I bought my last car, but decided to go with an Infiniti instead.

[btimbit]

I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?

Very anecdotal, but I have three friends that have nothing but issues with the same model and year range. All three had fairly major yearly maintenance bills, and the one car wasn’t a complete lemon. I was looking at one when I bought my last car, but decided to go with an Infiniti instead.

My exact experience. Engine is terrible. A blast to drive when it's working properly, but lots of issues and insane maintenance bills.

I went with an Infiniti the same age as well. Just as fun to drive without the headaches. And at a similar price

[8 Ball]

[QUOTE=8 Ball;6859604]I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?[/QUOT

Very anecdotal, but I have three friends that have nothing but issues with the same model and year range. All three had fairly major yearly maintenance bills, and the one car wasn’t a complete lemon. I was looking at one when I bought my last car, but decided to go with an Infiniti instead.

Good to know. Thank you.

[bagofpucks]

I can’t recommend the Infiniti G series enough. I don’t love the look of the newer Q series, but have always been a fan of the look of the Gs. I had two, a 2008 sedan and a 2009 coupe and both were rock solid. I love the AWD and the engine has all sorts of punch. I put over 60,000 kms on the coupe in two years and it only needed oil changes.

[btimbit]

Love my 2010 G37x AWD sedan. Looking to switch it up to a rwd G37s Coupe and building a autocross car

[bagofpucks]

I sold my coupe this year when my daughter was born and I miss that car. If I had space for it in the garage I would have kept it just because it was so much fun. Mine was AWD, but I’ve driven in a RWD and that thing felt like a rocket.

[Table 5]

I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?

It seems like its a much better better bet to stick with the non-turbo BMWs from that era. The naturally-aspirated 328i and 128i are still great driving cars, and you still get a really nice inline 6, as a opposed to a boosted turbo 4 like todays versions. I remember preferring the NA 128i over the 135i when I was considering buying one many years ago.

[burn_this_city]

The N54 BMWs need coils often, overall the engine is near bullet proof but they have ignition issues and occasionally vanos issues.

[8 Ball]

Thanks for the info guys. My mechanic is selling it for 12,900. It comes with brand new winter tires, and an extra set of rims. It is in mint condition. I'm worried I will have to sink money into it down the road, which I don't want to do. But man, what a fun car to drive.

[PaperBagger'14]

I"m looking at a 2011 BMW 335I. Anyone have any experience with this series?

I had a 2009 335xi, such a fun car to drive but it's expensive. Assuming yours has run flat tires, expect roughly $3000+ for a new set. Also I had some early spark plug failures as well as some injector bank (probably the wrong term but I'm on night shift and bagged) issues. The injector bank cost me about $5000 to fix.

If you dont mind high maintenance costs, it's a really fun car to boot around in.

[Sliver]

$3k for tires? Yikes. I just put run flat Blizzaks on my mini and cringed at that, but it was $1300. Seems like a good deal, now.

[Erick Estrada]

The N54 BMWs need coils often, overall the engine is near bullet proof but they have ignition issues and occasionally vanos issues.

BMW worked out most of the kinks in the N54 but not until that last few years of its run. The N55 less complex (single turbo) is much more reliable as it’s a rock.

[PaperBagger'14]

$3k for tires? Yikes. I just put run flat Blizzaks on my mini and cringed at that, but it was $1300. Seems like a good deal, now.

My summer rims were also 20" so it did need a specific lower profile tire but still it was a punch in the gut.