Nutrition

[Devils'Advocate]

I'm not exactly sure which forum this is supposed to be in. The food and entertainment forum seem more geared towards "which restaurants are best" or the proper way to prepare or cook something.... not really diet related. If the mods think otherwise, please move it with my apologies.

I said to someone yesterday that if I took all the meal plans that I have been given over the years by family doctors, internists, psychiatrists, personal trainers, nutritionists, registered dieticians, etc, I'd have enough paper to wallpaper my bedroom.

The book that I am currently reading really pushes the paleo diet... so whatever a caveman could have eaten is okay, the rest is out. So eggs, meat, plants such as fruits and vegetables are all okay... but legumes, starches and sugars are all out. As is dairy. The author is Dr. Barbara Berkeley.

The diet is QUITE similar to that which I was given by my personal trainer in terms of being very, very low in starchy carbs. The typical day on the PT's diet is "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, steamed vegetables, whey shake; Lunch: Beef strips in a bed of salad with olive oil dressing; Dinner: chicken, mixed vegetables; Snacks: Almonds, raw vegetables". Or day 2: "Breakfast: Whey shake with berries, full fat plain yogurt; Lunch: hardboiled eggs, ham and veggies; Dinner: ground beef, mixed vegetables; Snack: Apple, raw vegetables" So, again, no legumes, no starches, no sugars. So very similar to what the doctor above prescribed.

However, as a vegetarian, the paleo diet is really, really hard to do given that I use legumes (beans - be they soy, kidney, lima, chickpeas, etc) for protein. As well as greek yogurt. But for the last 4 months that I have been working with the PT, I have started doing the whey powder smoothies and doing a LOT more eggs/egg whites.

So I was sent to a dietician yesterday by my psychiatrist (I don't want to complicate things too much by explaining why a psychiatrist is sending me to a dietician). The dietician basically ripped the meal plan apart. Basically "The reality is that you need carbohydrates in your diet. They provide energy, vitamins, minerals and fibre. Adults should be getting 65% of their daily caloric intake from carbohydrates." She went to town on the paleo diet ("cavemen did survive hundreds of thousands of years on that diet... 30 years at a time"; "Yes, there are doctors touting this diet, but doctors have to take 1 course on nutrition in their whole education. On the other hand registered dieticians spend years studying nutrition"). The dietician outright said that her meal plan was based primarily on the Canadian Food Guide. She wanted me to have 12 servings of starchy carbs in one day where a serving would be things like a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K.

So it would be a VERY, VERY, VERY different diet than what the PT has me on. So I went to the PT this morning and we chatted. "I had a friend who was asked to sit on the working group that came up with the Canadian Food Guide. She decided not to once she looked at who else was on the committee. She was to be the ONLY dietician in the room... everyone else was a representative of industry. The food guide is a mess because of political lobbying and should be taken with a huge grain of salt, if not ignored outright".

So I am lost as to who to trust. I do know that the last time I went with more carbs, I gained 15 pounds which is why I started going to see the personal trainer. Since I've been with the personal trainer my weight has gone down 5 pounds and my body fat has gone from 23% to 19.8%. So the low-starchy carbs diet SEEMS to be working for me, but my GP, my psychiatrist and the dietician are all shaking their heads. There just seems to be so much conflicting advice out there that people just don't know what they are supposed to be eating.

[onetwo_threefour]

Not any kind of expert here, and while I am normally anti-conspiracy theory and respect educated expert opinion, in this case I'd side with the PT. Anecdotally, eliminating starchy carbs (combined with lots of exercise) was my key to losing weight. I went from the perspective of glycolic index and foods that didn't spike blood sugar and cravings.

As soon as your dietician says that doctors only have to take one course about nutrition, you've got to start questioning her objectivity. Doctors have to understand a lot more than just nutrition including basic biology and chemistry.

I have heard similar things about lobbying influencing the food guide and there may be something to it, but my own take comes from my own research and experience. I think the food guide is probably fine for those who aren't sensitive to blood sugar fluctuations AND who work at physically intensive occupations, but for those of us that sit at a desk, have a lot of stress, and may be more sensitive to glucose variations, the food guide is just not appropriate.

[Flabbibulin]

I think it is important to clarify the misunderstood concept that carbs are what make people gain weight/and or unable to lose. Insulin resistance is largely what makes a high carb diet lead to weight gain/make it difficult to lose weight. Increasing ones sensitivity to insulin (which is the opposite of insulin resistance) is not a simple or quick task, but it basically comes down to the type of carbs you are eating and at what times.

While very low carb diets have been used for years now in the weight loss circle, they can be difficult to maintain and make it extremely difficult to follow if you are regularly working out. Certainly plenty of people do it, but it is difficult.

I have always been a proponent of a well balanced diet, monitoring the type of carbs you eat, combined with 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight and around .4 to .5 grams of fat for every pound.

The most commonsense advice, for someone trying to lose weight, is to calculate your BMR (with consideration for activity levels) and subtract 500 calories per day. This is making things a little simplistic, but that works out to 3500 a week and 1 pound lost per week. Counting calories is a pain for some, but it typically needs to be incorporated into the routine of someone trying to lose a decent amount of weight.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I'm no expert, but my take is that you shouldn't really trust anyone who claims that there is only 1 way to lose weght or eat a healty diet, whether it be a Paleo diet, or the canada food plan, or their own methods.

The fact of the matter is, everyone is different. Depending on your previous lifestyle, your current lifestyle, your activity level, and what kind of activity you do, and what your goals are (run a marathon, vs straight up body compostion), you're going to have different requirements.

If you see anyone who is trying to prescribe a certain diet without asking you about all those factors and more, then I would't be using them as a source of truth.

[Street Pharmacist]

Also be careful about reasoning. I would be very curious as to why you should eat what a caveman ate. I can't see a compelling reason. If you follow a diet that excludes groups of foods (especially carbohydrates), you will likely lose weight because it's difficult to get the amount of calories you'd need to maintain our gain weight. A well balanced diet is harder because you have to focus on portion sizes, not exclusion. I would imagine the second one is healthier, but only because you're more likely to get a little bit of many nutrients. I have nothing to back that up

I'm no expert on the subject, but I can tell you the body has a myriad of checks and balances to keep homeostasis. These measures allow us to survive and thrive on very different diets.
A personal trainer has a certificate. A dietician has 5 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, pathology, nutrition, etc.

[Devils'Advocate]

Well, that's not always the case. My PT has this:
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/info/regist/calendars/programs/1193.html
Actually she has her masters, so that's 6 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc....

As for reasoning, I have been obese in the past and am trying to maintain my current weight. So I am reading "Refuse to Regain" which pushes the paleo diet. The gist of it is that formerly overweight people are hypersenstive to starchy carbs. The more weight you have lost, the more sensitive one is.

The summary to chapter 4 is:
- "S Foods" are sugars and starches. Both result in adding sugar to the bloodstream.
- S Foods are generally newcomers to the human diet and are not essential for health
- In previously overweight people, S Foods trigger hunger and weight gain
- S Foods have an addictive quality
- Avoiding S Foods improve your odds of successful long-term maintenance.

[undercoverbrother]

Eat like a horse, work like a horse.

[blankall]

I'm not an expert either but, the main things to think about IMO are total calories and protein intake. The reason why diets like the paleo-diet are effective is because they limit calories while keeping protein high.

There's nothing evil about carbs. They just happen to be the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet that will accomplish the goals of limiting calories without limiting protein. Plus it's really easy to overeat if your eating processed flours and sugars. Humans have basically taken plants and extracted and concentrated calories from them. In a time when we struggled to reach our calorie goals, this was a huge advantage. Now it leads to over eating.

There's also supposedly some effects on appetite too. Apparently lean meats will fill your appetite in fewer calories than carb heavy foods.

Basically, my overall point is this. These diets are all window dressing. In order to lose weight you need to find a way to decrease calories while maintaining protein intake. Carbs aren't evil, but they are the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet. Carbs are also very easy to over indulge on.

These diets will work for people who have trouble controlling their own appetite or structuring healthy meals. However, the problem with an ultra strict diet is they are hard to maintain. You're much better off thinking about the basics and making manageable changes to your lifestyle and diet.

[Azure]

Your original diet actually looks very good. Maybe add some more brown rice, oatmeal, and actual whole wheat bread. Brown rice is especially nutritious.

IMO, carb intake should be dictated by your activity level. Someone that is very active, plays sports, works out, etc, etc needs more carbs than someone who sits at a desk all day and works out in the evening for 45 min, 3-5x per week.

As for actually needing carbs because of all their supposed benefits, you can easily get all your 'needed' vitamins/minerals with 100g of carbs per day. The blanket idea that you should get 65% of your calories from 'carbs' is a bunch of horse crap and has been for a long time.

Paleo has been taken out of context, IMO. Sticking to 'natural' food sources is great and all, but there are a lot of holes in the way they go about it. That being said, I personally see nothing wrong with your original diet. In fact it looks damn good. If you are lacking energy, add some healthy carbs like brown rice and oatmeal.

EDIT: Sweet potatoes are an amazing source of healthy carbs as well.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know if I've ever stuck to a fad diet. I lost weight recently by balancing out what I was eating, taking a lot of the garbage (pop, sweeets heavily fried stuff and fast food) out and taking bread and processed sugars out. And it seemed to work for me.

The problem with these set piece diets like Paelo or that guys diet where you pretty much ate meat is that you lose weight due to a shock to your system but it doesn't seem to last.

There's nothing the matter with eating like a cave man, and eating basic clean foods but its a tough diet to stick to and you need incredible discipline for the rest of your life pretty much.

Sometimes I think our parents generation had the right idea with the four food groups. make sure you get your fruits, grains, meats with fat drained off and other proteins and dairy. Then get off of your a$$ turn off the T.V. or the computer and go outside and run around for two hours.

[Flabbibulin]

Devil's Advocate, maybe I'm just not reading carefully enough, but just to clarify- are you a vegetarian? The diet given to you by PT includes a crap load of meat, but did they not give you some diet schedules without meat?

And I agree with Azure- the first diet you listed looks pretty good to me, but there probably is room for a little more complex carbs such as brown rice, oatmeal etc... Excluding meat is tricky though.

edit- perhaps look into some stuff written by Bill Pearl. A well respected vegetarian bodybuilder that was able to have a high protein diet as a vegetarian. I'm pretty sure he included dairy and eggs in his diet.

[Street Pharmacist]

Well, that's not always the case. My PT has this:
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/info/regist/calendars/programs/1193.html
Actually she has her masters, so that's 6 years of university learning about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc....

As for reasoning, I have been obese in the past and am trying to maintain my current weight. So I am reading "Refuse to Regain" which pushes the paleo diet. The gist of it is that formerly overweight people are hypersenstive to starchy carbs. The more weight you have lost, the more sensitive one is.

The summary to chapter 4 is:
- "S Foods" are sugars and starches. Both result in adding sugar to the bloodstream.
- S Foods are generally newcomers to the human diet and are not essential for health
- In previously overweight people, S Foods trigger hunger and weight gain
- S Foods have an addictive quality
- Avoiding S Foods improve your odds of successful long-term maintenance.

That makes more sense than: eat what cave men eat. That screams fad. If these claims have validity, then fine. I see so many charlatans claiming strange things like "sharks don't get cancer so easy their cartilage", so I'm always skeptical of strange claims

[CaptainCrunch]

The latest thing I've heard on the radio is that guy with the green coffee pill who claims that he lost 63 pounds and 6 pant sizes in 6 weeks with no effort while eating whatever he wants.

These miracle weightloss drugs are extremely dangerous.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/green-coffee-bean-extract-does-it-really-help-you-lose-weight/article6116816/

“Usually when studies break the physical laws of the universe, there’s usually something wrong with the study itself,” said Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, medical director of Ottawa’s Bariatric Medical Institute, who writes Weighty Matters, a popular blog on nutrition issues.

[DownhillGoat]

I would be very curious as to why you should eat what a caveman ate. I can't see a compelling reason.
http://www.madmumblings.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10026/Flintstones%20Diner.jpg

[blankall]

Devil's Advocate, maybe I'm just not reading carefully enough, but just to clarify- are you a vegetarian? The diet given to you by PT includes a crap load of meat, but did they not give you some diet schedules without meat?

And I agree with Azure- the first diet you listed looks pretty good to me, but there probably is room for a little more complex carbs such as brown rice, oatmeal etc... Excluding meat is tricky though.

edit- perhaps look into some stuff written by Bill Pearl. A well respected vegetarian bodybuilder that was able to have a high protein diet as a vegetarian. I'm pretty sure he included dairy and eggs in his diet.

I'm curious about this as well.

The paleo-diet does not mesh with vegetarianism. The paleo-diet is laregely composed of green vegetables, which have almost no calories, and meat. Vegetarianims requires you to get protein/calories from legumes and processed foods like flours and soy, which are excluded by the paleo-diet.

[PsYcNeT]

I'm not an expert either but, the main things to think about IMO are total calories and protein intake. The reason why diets like the paleo-diet are effective is because they limit calories while keeping protein high.

There's nothing evil about carbs. They just happen to be the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet that will accomplish the goals of limiting calories without limiting protein. Plus it's really easy to overeat if your eating processed flours and sugars. Humans have basically taken plants and extracted and concentrated calories from them. In a time when we struggled to reach our calorie goals, this was a huge advantage. Now it leads to over eating.

There's also supposedly some effects on appetite too. Apparently lean meats will fill your appetite in fewer calories than carb heavy foods.

Basically, my overall point is this. These diets are all window dressing. In order to lose weight you need to find a way to decrease calories while maintaining protein intake. Carbs aren't evil, but they are the easiest thing to eliminate from your diet. Carbs are also very easy to over indulge on.

These diets will work for people who have trouble controlling their own appetite or structuring healthy meals. However, the problem with an ultra strict diet is they are hard to maintain. You're much better off thinking about the basics and making manageable changes to your lifestyle and diet.

Pretty much this.

Expend more calories than you intake, maintain your nutrients while doing so (either through supplements or proper nutrition).

[Azure]

If you're not getting protein from meat, you have to get it from eggs, dairy and whey. Not sure that is a good idea either if you're trying to avoid carbs.

[WilderPegasus]

So I was sent to a dietician yesterday by my psychiatrist (I don't want to complicate things too much by explaining why a psychiatrist is sending me to a dietician). The dietician basically ripped the meal plan apart. Basically "The reality is that you need carbohydrates in your diet. They provide energy, vitamins, minerals and fibre. Adults should be getting 65% of their daily caloric intake from carbohydrates." She went to town on the paleo diet ("cavemen did survive hundreds of thousands of years on that diet... 30 years at a time"; "Yes, there are doctors touting this diet, but doctors have to take 1 course on nutrition in their whole education. On the other hand registered dieticians spend years studying nutrition"). The dietician outright said that her meal plan was based primarily on the Canadian Food Guide. She wanted me to have 12 servings of starchy carbs in one day where a serving would be things like a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K.


The dietician sounds like a quack. They need five years of education just to follow the Canadian Food Guide? Sounds like a bunch of slow learners to me.

And do a slice of bread, six crackers, an Eggo-sized pancake or 1 cup of Special K really sound like nutritious foods or better sources of vitamins, minerals and fibre than vegetables or even fruit?

That's not withstanding the 30 year life span for cavemen was due to the low infant mortality rate that brought the average down considerably.

[JD]

That's not withstanding the 30 year life span for cavemen was due to the low infant mortality rate that brought the average down considerably.
Well don't discount the fact that their statistics and records keeping was cavemanish, at best. I mean, writing on cave walls? At least crack open a spreadsheet for the love of man.

[Devils'Advocate]

If you're not getting protein from meat, you have to get it from eggs, dairy and whey. Not sure that is a good idea either if you're trying to avoid carbs.


How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

[Flabbibulin]

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

My personal opinion is the diet is ok for the short term, although your carb count is incredibly low with your version (particularly on day 1). The only important thing to ask though is whether that is sustainable for you? It is difficult to calculate your caloric intake without knowing your portion sizes, but my initial guess is your version would barely be hitting 1500 calories. Perhaps fitting in 4 meals and a snack would be ideal?

Also, is your goal to lose the desired weight and then slowly integrate more carbs such as brown rice and sweet potato?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

If that's the case, then she is a pretty terrible dietician. A good one should be willing to work with you to find meal plans that they think meet your dietary needs, and are both convenient and appealing for you. If it doesn't fit those last two criteria, she might as well tell you to eat nothing but unicorn steaks, because you aren't gonna be able to stick to either.

[blankall]

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

Try and add up the total calories from what you're eating. Keep in mind that many vegetables have almost no calories. The calories come from what they are cooked in, dressed with, wrapped in, etc...

If your calories are way below maintenance, you're going to feel dizzy, tired, and weak. In order to lose fat, you need to be below maintenance, but you don't want to go too far below. The feelings of weakness and fatigue may be your metabolism shutting down, if your calorie intake is too low. However, what you're feeling could just be an adjustment period. It's not possible to tell without more details of what you're eating.

Other tips I always suggest is to find sauces and condiments that are low in calories. Many mustards and hot sauces have virtually no calories.

[WilderPegasus]

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs


What the hell are these abominations?

[Canehdianman]

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
....

Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs



Smart thinking! Try to use all of the meat off the vegetarian. Try to remember to boil the rib bones for soup stock afterwards.

This will ensure that us omnivores never run out of high quality herbivore meat. Proper herd management is key.

[Devils'Advocate]

What the hell are these abominations?

http://gardein.com/products/tuscan-breasts-cnd/
http://gardein.com/products/barbecue-riblets-cnd/

[Devils'Advocate]

Try and add up the total calories from what you're eating. Keep in mind that many vegetables have almost no calories. The calories come from what they are cooked in, dressed with, wrapped in, etc...

If your calories are way below maintenance, you're going to feel dizzy, tired, and weak. In order to lose fat, you need to be below maintenance, but you don't want to go too far below. The feelings of weakness and fatigue may be your metabolism shutting down, if your calorie intake is too low. However, what you're feeling could just be an adjustment period. It's not possible to tell without more details of what you're eating.

Other tips I always suggest is to find sauces and condiments that are low in calories. Many mustards and hot sauces have virtually no calories.

I am at 2200 per day. The dietician said that a man of my age/height should be at 2500. And when I told her that I am cycling to/from work each day (40 mins each way) + seeing the personal trainer 3 times a week, she said it should be around 2700 to 2800 each day. But whenever I get anywhere near that, I start putting on weight.

I don't feel fatigued at all.

I didn't give you the portion sizes. Breakfast is typically 800 calories, lunch is 600 and dinner is 800.

-=-=-=-=-=-
As for the dietician, she was taught that the Canadian Food Guide was the end-all, be-all. My diet, with very few carbs, did not meet what she was saying so she wanted nothing to do with it. If you are a goalie coach that specializes in teaching the butterfly and someone comes in that flops around like Hasek, you tell them you want nothing to do with their style. If that is what they are being taught in university... *shrug*

[undercoverbrother]

I am at 2200 per day. The dietician said that a man of my age/height should be at 2500. And when I told her that I am cycling to/from work each day (40 mins each way) + seeing the personal trainer 3 times a week, she said it should be around 2700 to 2800 each day. But whenever I get anywhere near that, I start putting on weight.

I don't feel fatigued at all.

I didn't give you the portion sizes. Breakfast is typically 800 calories, lunch is 600 and dinner is 800.

-=-=-=-=-=-
As for the dietician, she was taught that the Canadian Food Guide was the end-all, be-all. My diet, with very few carbs, did not meet what she was saying so she wanted nothing to do with it. If you are a goalie coach that specializes in teaching the butterfly and someone comes in that flops around like Hasek, you tell them you want nothing to do with their style. If that is what they are being taught in university... *shrug*

Not to be rude, but are you putting on Fat or lean muscle. Depending on your current body composition you can "put on weight" and still be healthy.

I know you have posted about your weight a fair bit, so I assume you are aware of the different types of "weight" gain.

BTW, if I was you I would throw your scale away, unless you have been given a target weight by a doctor. If you haven't then focus and trust how you feel. It can say as much about your health/fitness/weight gain as any scale.

[Devils'Advocate]

Also, is your goal to lose the desired weight and then slowly integrate more carbs such as brown rice and sweet potato?

Well, I was down at 165 and 15% body fat. In 2012 I struggled with my diet and added 10 pounds. And that's when I went to see an eating disorder psychiatrist who put me on a very high carb diet. Breakfast was toast, cereal AND english muffin. Dinner was pasta almost every night. Lunch was a sandwich. Snacks were crackers and peanut butter or a muffin. I was hitting around 2800 calories a day under this doctor's plan. And I put on ANOTHER 10 pounds up to 185 and my body fat went all the way up to 24%.

I then went to the personal trainer, dropped the carbs down to near zero, started weight training. The weight has only gone down to 180, but the body fat is at 19.6%.

So I'm okay staying at 180 for the rest of my life. If I got down to 170, I wouldn't complain, but I have no urgent need to get there. I feel good, high energy, did well on my half marathon, lifting heavier weights now... generally things seem okay.

However, both my family doctor and my new psychiatrist both wanted me to see this dietician and I had a feeling they wanted me back more towards what the first doctor had me on. And I was right. Which is why I brought the book about the paleo diet... which just seemed to irk the dietician. She didn't seem to like being challenged.

[Devils'Advocate]

Not to be rude, but are you putting on Fat or lean muscle. Depending on your current body composition you can "put on weight" and still be healthy.

As per my last post, it was fat, based on the body fat percentages. I regularly go to Toronto for DEXA scans.

[undercoverbrother]

Well, I was down at 165 and 15% body fat. In 2012 I struggled with my diet and added 10 pounds. And that's when I went to see an eating disorder psychiatrist who put me on a very high carb diet. Breakfast was toast, cereal AND english muffin. Dinner was pasta almost every night. Lunch was a sandwich. Snacks were crackers and peanut butter or a muffin. I was hitting around 2800 calories a day under this doctor's plan. And I put on ANOTHER 10 pounds up to 185 and my body fat went all the way up to 24%.

I then went to the personal trainer, dropped the carbs down to near zero, started weight training. The weight has only gone down to 180, but the body fat is at 19.6%.

So I'm okay staying at 180 for the rest of my life. If I got down to 170, I wouldn't complain, but I have no urgent need to get there. I feel good, high energy, did well on my half marathon, lifting heavier weights now... generally things seem okay.

However, both my family doctor and my new psychiatrist both wanted me to see this dietician and I had a feeling they wanted me back more towards what the first doctor had me on. And I was right. Which is why I brought the book about the paleo diet... which just seemed to irk the dietician. She didn't seem to like being challenged.

As per my last post, it was fat, based on the body fat percentages. I regularly go to Toronto for DEXA scans.


Those weights don't seem bad at all. I am 6 ft and float around 190/200 depending on how much running/weightroom I do.

I would stay off the scale for a few months and use you clothes/energy level(s) as your guide

[WilderPegasus]

http://gardein.com/products/tuscan-breasts-cnd/
http://gardein.com/products/barbecue-riblets-cnd/

Okay...

Trainer gives you diet based upon paleo diet. You modify it with just about the most processed least paleo foods you can find.

Why do you even go to other people for help with your diet? You just seem to be looking for someone to tell you to eat the same thing you already want to eat.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Those weights don't seem bad at all. I am 6 ft and float around 190/200 depending on how much running/weightroom I do.

I would stay off the scale for a few months and use you clothes/energy level(s) as your guide

Judging weight by height isn't really relevant.
Depending on your frame, and how much muscle mass you're carrying 6ft 190 could be pretty shredded or pretty tubby.

I know when I was at 200 lbs, I was pretty fat, but one of my best buddies who is the same height as me weighed 210 but had about 10% body fat because he was built like a gorilla.

If he was at 24% body fat, then being 185 lbs was too heavy for him.

[Devils'Advocate]

Okay...

Trainer gives you diet based upon paleo diet. You modify it with just about the most processed least paleo foods you can find.

Why do you even go to other people for help with your diet? You just seem to be looking for someone to tell you to eat the same thing you already want to eat.

That isn't true at all. I went to the dietician with (A) the original meat-eaters diet the trainer gave me, (B) the vegan diet the trainer gave me, and (C) the diet plan I came up with and was willing to work with her, explaining that I was concerned about starchy carbs due to weight gain and brought a book that backed up my concern.

The thread was more along the lines of a frustration that we just don't know who to trust when it comes to nutrition. Doctors? Registered dieticians? Personal Trainer? Books on nutrition? Those haven't worked for me as I keep getting different messages. Like I said, I've been given enough meal plans over the years to wallpaper a room. And you are right, the personal trainer one didn't work for me.. the meat one didn't fit and there was no way that I could maintain eating the vegan diet. Maybe eating these ribs are not healthy (they may be processed, but at least all the ingredients are readable) and I am more than willing to change. Just that moving to a high carb diet like what I was on before scares me due to the weight gain and fat % from last time.

FYI - for those trying to do any calculations, I am 5 foot, 10 inches.

[undercoverbrother]

Judging weight by height isn't really relevant.
Depending on your frame, and how much muscle mass you're carrying 6ft 190 could be pretty shredded or pretty tubby.

I know when I was at 200 lbs, I was pretty fat, but one of my best buddies who is the same height as me weighed 210 but had about 10% body fat because he was built like a gorilla.

If he was at 24% body fat, then being 185 lbs was too heavy for him.


Not really my point (which was poorly stated). I think the OP should ditch his scale and use other indicators to worry/judge his weight.

[WilderPegasus]

That isn't true at all. I went to the dietician with (A) the original meat-eaters diet the trainer gave me, (B) the vegan diet the trainer gave me, and (C) the diet plan I came up with and was willing to work with her, explaining that I was concerned about starchy carbs due to weight gain and brought a book that backed up my concern.

The thread was more along the lines of a frustration that we just don't know who to trust when it comes to nutrition. Doctors? Registered dieticians? Personal Trainer? Books on nutrition? Those haven't worked for me as I keep getting different messages. Like I said, I've been given enough meal plans over the years to wallpaper a room. And you are right, the personal trainer one didn't work for me.. the meat one didn't fit and there was no way that I could maintain eating the vegan diet. Maybe eating these ribs are not healthy (they may be processed, but at least all the ingredients are readable) and I am more than willing to change. Just that moving to a high carb diet like what I was on before scares me due to the weight gain and fat % from last time.

You are not willing to change. You obviously value only eating certain foods over the foods that people you ask for help suggest to you. Or if you do attempt to change you believe that you cannot make that change long term.

You state this thread is about frustration at not knowing who to trust but the answer is pretty simple. You listen to the people whose advice works for other people in similar situations to yourself and you try it out yourself. If it doesn't work for you, discard their opinion. If it does work, stick with it.

[Devils'Advocate]

Come on. I'm a vegetarian. I'm unwilling to eat a meat based diet nor a vegan diet (the two options that I have rejected).

I have *grave concerns* about eating more carbs and brought those to the dietician. If others back her opinion, I may be forced to change mine. But I am willing to go there. But you can't possibly be calling me "overly rigid" because I won't start eating meat.

[Flabbibulin]

You listen to the people whose advice works for other people in similar situations to yourself and you try it out yourself. If it doesn't work for you, discard their opinion. If it does work, stick with it.

This is what it pretty much comes down to. There are a million correct answers and there a million wrong answers. You need to find what works for you.

The crazy thing about nutrition and fitness is that there are a lot of laymen that are basically "experts" in this area- the problem is that they are only experts in what works for them. At the end of the day, all of the programs and methods usually work, but its about finding one that naturally works for you- while respecting the fundamentals that are universal for everyone. ie. adequate intake of nutrients, minerals, carbs, proteins, fats etc

[WilderPegasus]

Come on. I'm a vegetarian. I'm unwilling to eat a meat based diet nor a vegan diet (the two options that I have rejected).

I have *grave concerns* about eating more carbs and brought those to the dietician. If others back her opinion, I may be forced to change mine. But I am willing to go there. But you can't possibly be calling me "overly rigid" because I won't start eating meat.

You're unwilling to eat meat or vegan or more carbs but you're willing to change? Okay....

It all comes down to what you prioritize. Either you value being thin and healthy over eating only the foods you want to eat or you don't. But don't whine about not being able to know who to turn to nutrition advice when you're giving everyone who provides you advice an almost impossible task. You clearly value eating what you believe you should eat over what others tell you you should eat.

[opendoor]

If it was me, I'd probably give the dietician's meal plan a try but modify it to match your current caloric intake. I'd guess your weight gain with previous higher carb diets was more related to consuming nearly 2800 calories vs. the 2200 you're consuming now. BMR is great as a general guide, but if you've been tracking your weight over a long period of time and you figure 2200 is your maintenance level, then stick with that. Is it possible to have your BMR tested to confirm your observations?

Personally I'm pretty skeptical that any diet plan that completely eliminates a bunch of normal foods is a good idea in the long run. I'd stick with the healthy foods you like and try to build a balanced diet plan around that. If you just avoid eating a bunch of junk you'll already be ahead of about 90% of the population.

[Devils'Advocate]

But don't whine about not being able to know who to turn to nutrition advice when you're giving everyone who provides you advice an almost impossible task.

A vegetarian diet that is healthy ( provides all the nutrients that I need) and won't cause me to gain fat is an impossible task? If that is the case then I do give up.

[squiggs96]

Hunter Pence, of the San Francisco Giants, started the Paleo diet in August 2012. This year he had his best statistical season ever, made even more remarkable by the fact he plays in a pitcher friendly ballpark for 81 of the games. He also was the first Giant to start every game since 1954 (when they played 8 less games than in 2013) and missed only 14 defensive innings.

You may not end up being a World Series champ, but there is a ton of information out there about and by him. He gives lots of tips, meal choices and dietary information. He loves eating giant plates of kale and has special meals brought in for him on plane trips. Searching him might be a good place to start.

[Azure]

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.


Well meat is simply a better source of protein. Eggs are great, but you'd have to eat up to 12 eggs per day in order to get JUST 100g of protein. If you're doing paleo, chances are you're going for more protein than normal, so .8g per 1lb of bodyweight is a good goal, and that is a lofty goal if you don't touch meat. Each to his own though, and it can certainly be done.


Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

English muffin? Really? Horrible source of carbs.

I like your own plan a lot better. Again add some oatmeal, brown rice and sweet potatoes for GOOD carbs. Maybe milk?

[Azure]

If that's the case, then she is a pretty terrible dietician. A good one should be willing to work with you to find meal plans that they think meet your dietary needs, and are both convenient and appealing for you. If it doesn't fit those last two criteria, she might as well tell you to eat nothing but unicorn steaks, because you aren't gonna be able to stick to either.

Nevermind the whole cost factor. Meal plans are great and all, but not everyone can afford to be so picky about what they eat.

[Devils'Advocate]

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

[sa226]

I read an article recently that discussed how research has shown that it doesn't matter if you eat before or after a workout (ie get your protein).

The most important part of your daily protein intake is spreading it throughout the day. Instead of 100g after you work out then 40g for dinner, spread it evenly 50\50\40.

The studies have shown that your body uses the protein much more efficiently.

I'll see if I can find it.

[GGG]

Take a look at some of the Canadian diabetes diet recomendations for some ideas. I believe from some reading of various levels of science based research to others and my own annecdotal evidence that eating a low glycemic index diet is an effective way to feel full, and lose weight.

Some of the general concepts are no refined sugars. For me this includes limiting bread, pasta, intake making sure it is whole wheat and switching to Quinoa instead of rice based dishes.

I also cranked up my fruit intake if I want carbs because of something I read in some book. (can't remember which one). But it was an anti sugar book, and included refined carbs in bread as things that would cause weight gain but it really push fruit. The logic being that although fruit is high in carbohydrates it is also high in fiber. And the sweeter a fruit is generally the more fiber it contains. Looking at sugar cane it is practically all fiber but very sweet.

One other rule I have is no liquid calories (aside from beer or wine occasionally). This was based on various studies I had read which showed that liquid calories don't lead to any satiation of appetite. Meaning that if you drink a glass of orange juice for breakfast you will eat the same about as if you didn't drink the glass of orange juice. So the Orange Juice is purely additional calories. From what I have read this was true for Pop, Smoothies, Juice, Milk etc. It didn't matter the source of the liquid calories, none of them made you feel full.

My issue with the Paleo logic is that evolution does not select the best diet. It only selects a diet which was successful at getting those who ate it to child rearing age. In humans this was a high flexible system that could eat and get calories from almost anything. This system was able to take advantage of being a hunter gatherer and take advantage of the invention of agriculture. It makes us fat when we have an abundance of food and allows us to store calories for when food is scarace. So trying to argue what we ate at 1 point in time is the best because that is how we evolved misses the entire point of evolution. The best or strongest spieces didn't survive, the ones that could adapt to change the best did. That said I perfer a low refined carb diet becasue I found them a source of many calories that did not add much nutrition and were quite easy to cut out.

[Hack&Lube]

After the unavoidable Christmas binge period, I've spent January low carb. I haven't touched any refined sugar, wheat (bread/pasta), rice, potatoes, starchy vegetables, fruit, etc. at all.

I spend the weekends grilling or slow cooking meats and eat them throughout the week. It usually consists of Chicken Breasts, Turkey Breast, Salmon, Cod/Haddock, Steak, and Pork.

Last weekend, I had a craving for ribs and slow BBQ'd two huge racks including breastbones that I got in bulk. The breastbone pieces were made into pulled pork and the ribs were made with low-carb BBQ sauce I concocted (based on reduced diet coke).

Vegetables consist of romaine, spring mix, super greens, snap peas, broccoli, cauliflower. Breakfast is eggs and bacon. Snacks are cheese.

I have not really noticed any change in weight or appearance but I feel much better than I did over the entirety of 2013. Have to start working out and training for a bike race in the summer. I snuck a few slices of Apple and Grapefruit that were in the office platter today and man I instantly felt dizzy like a kid in kindergarten with sugar high (fructose frenzy? lol). My head aches and I feel like I am going to pass out after eating them.

[Flabbibulin]

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

Your goals in the gym should determine what you eat before and after- if you are only doing a cardio session with the intention of losing body fat, there is no doubt that going on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is ideal- this usually means that your body is burning stored energy, in the form of fat, as opposed to the energy you just took in from your breakfast.

If you are weight training and hoping to put on muscle mass, then eating before (about 60min) and immediately after is ideal- both meals being high in protein and carbs. Carbs are essential for energy required in weight training, and both crabs and protein are essential for muscle growth. If time is an issue in the morning with two meals, I would suggest one of the two meals be a protein shake- whey protein, frozen fruit, almond milk type of thing. Can easily be prepared in advance if it is your post workout shake.

With regards to recommended protein levels, there is no doubt that 1 gram per pound is ideal if you are hoping put on muscle mass. Most official health guides will recommend .5 grams I believe, but 1 gram it is pretty much the standard recommendation in the fitness world.

Pretty simple formula for me, although I workout in the evenings- schedule my dinner to be right after the gym. I have a pre-workout meal 60 minutes before the gym in which I try to take in about 40 grams of carbs and 30 grams of protein. I usually try to eat protein in 30g increments, divided among 6 meals or so. Usually structure the majority of my carb intake to pre and post workout and breakfast.

[Yakbutter]

I've done both diets. The only thing a person going on a high protein + fruit/veggie should know is that it is very hard psychologically not to eat carbohydrates. You get very intense cravings for starchy foods and you will feel like crap most of the time.

Good idea for body builders and certain athletes, but for the average person, I don't think it's a very realistic diet. Nothing wrong with eating some oatmeal, brown rice or a potato.

[GGG]

Your goals in the gym should determine what you eat before and after- if you are only doing a cardio session with the intention of losing body fat, there is no doubt that going on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is ideal- this usually means that your body is burning stored energy, in the form of fat, as opposed to the energy you just took in from your breakfast.



This is false. Your body stores glycogen in your muscles which support somewhere around 20-30 km of running or equivalent calorie burn before your body turns to other sources to make up the difference.

Also if you are depleting your glycogen stores your body needs carbs in order to burn the fat that is stored within your body.

[GreenLantern]

What flab said, it all depends on your goals.

Are you trying to lose weight? Bulk? Cut?

Fasted training is quite popular, I started doing it myself when I switched to AM work outs about a year ago, I highly recommend it no matter what your goals are. I generally don't eat anything before the gym, then follow my work out with a scoop of whey protein in water immediately after (this is usually about 8 AM). Then when I get to work I have my breakfast.

The only time I will eat something is if I didn't have a night time snack or if I had a small supper for whatever reason. And this is simply for my mental state/fatigue, it has nothing to do with actual gains. It just helps me get through the work out. Generally that would be like 1/4 cup of instant oats or a scoop of whey protein in skim milk. Keep it as light as possible.

For the protein powders, assuming you are in Calgary and assuming they have a Pop Eyes, you can grab it there. That is probably the most expensive place to get it. Costco actually has a really good whey isolate for around $50 for a 4.4 lb tub. I always keep one in my house in case I run out of my favourite brand:

http://ca.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/whey.html?_requestid=6373453

Hands down the best bang for your buck when it comes to powders.. I can hold thsi up to my Costco brand and they are damn near identical, but what the Costco brand lacks is taste. ON tastes a lot better. Bodybuilding.com is a great suppie website because they ship from Canada (again assuming you are in Canada). A lot of other websites out there, muscleandstrength.com or fitnessone.com will hammer you with extra duties/expensive shipping when you cross the border more often than not.

[Flabbibulin]

This is false. Your body stores glycogen in your muscles which support somewhere around 20-30 km of running or equivalent calorie burn before your body turns to other sources to make up the difference.

Also if you are depleting your glycogen stores your body needs carbs in order to burn the fat that is stored within your body.

Ok fair enough, but it isn't like I made up this logic on the spot- Given your knowlegde, I am sure you are aware that this is very commonly preached by many fitness people across the globe. Of course there are many that suggest differently, giving the sort of details you have. At the end of the day, I think the best thing to do, with regards to cardio and fat burning, is to test out the times and pre-cardio fueling that works best for you and gives results.

There is no doubt that pre and post workout fueling before weight training and lifting (non cardio sessions) is very important.

[Azure]

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

You need protein AND carbs after your workout. Some people argue it doesn't matter if you get them before, so it depends on how your body reacts.

IMO, 140g per day for a 180lb guy is very good.

Protein powder is the best way to get fast digesting protein into your system to help repair your muscles and replenish depleted glycogen stores. Costco usually has good quality powder for great prices.

Otherwise I bodybuilding dot com has a great online store with cheap shipping to Canada.

What kind of weight training are you doing?

[Azure]

I read an article recently that discussed how research has shown that it doesn't matter if you eat before or after a workout (ie get your protein).

The most important part of your daily protein intake is spreading it throughout the day. Instead of 100g after you work out then 40g for dinner, spread it evenly 50\50\40.

The studies have shown that your body uses the protein much more efficiently.

I'll see if I can find it.

Might have been the same study that says your body can't utilize more than 30g of protein at a time, and people are effectively wasting quality protein if they don't spread it out more throughout the day.

[Azure]

I've done both diets. The only thing a person going on a high protein + fruit/veggie should know is that it is very hard psychologically not to eat carbohydrates. You get very intense cravings for starchy foods and you will feel like crap most of the time.

Good idea for body builders and certain athletes, but for the average person, I don't think it's a very realistic diet. Nothing wrong with eating some oatmeal, brown rice or a potato.

Actually, I would say it is better for athletes and body builders to eat high carb diets.

Carbohydrates can fuel and help build and repair muscle mass better than fats can.

[TheSutterDynasty]

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

Based on what I know about you DA, you have reason to be a little nitpicky as far as diet and exercise as subtleties make a big difference since you've lost and kept off so much weight. In my years looking up research / dealing with nutrition and resistance training, however, I've come to realize that nearly everybody obsesses over the little things and ignores the big things.

The big things would be things like avoiding "cheating", skipping work outs, that sort of thing. The little things are those like you're asking about, like when to intake protein.

The reality is we don't really know. Some studies give insight as to some of these subtleties but the majority of what you'll hear is anecdotal evidence, which could go either way.

Here's a good review article about exercise & protein intake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20565767
The issue with recommendations for protein are they're based on deficiency calculation (nitrogen excretion), so are very inexact. Recommendations range from 1.0 g / kg body weight protein all the way up to 2.0+g.

I'd suggest focusing on the big things instead of driving yourself crazy.

[Azure]

^^^agreed.

Even the amount of protein you get isn't such a big deal to me anymore. Avoiding crappy food is much more important.

[Calgary14]

I'm no expert, but my take is that you shouldn't really trust anyone who claims that there is only 1 way to lose weght or eat a healty diet, whether it be a Paleo diet, or the canada food plan, or their own methods.

The fact of the matter is, everyone is different. Depending on your previous lifestyle, your current lifestyle, your activity level, and what kind of activity you do, and what your goals are (run a marathon, vs straight up body compostion), you're going to have different requirements.

If you see anyone who is trying to prescribe a certain diet without asking you about all those factors and more, then I would't be using them as a source of truth.

I agree, and I think balance is the key. It sounds boring, plain and simple - and it is. Anything else is a fad

[GreenLantern]

While you do need to account for both sides of the argument, you also have to chose a side.

You can't hop back and forth, you have to go with one side, try it, see if it works for you. Everyone is different that is the first thing you will find out, just because Jon Snow's eating 400 carbs a day to bulk doesn't mean that Oberyn Martell needs that many too, he has to figure out what works best for him.

I always just give advice from the stand point of what works for me taking for granted that the person I am talking to will understand this isn't a template to follow, but just a view point.

[GGG]

Ok fair enough, but it isn't like I made up this logic on the spot- Given your knowlegde, I am sure you are aware that this is very commonly preached by many fitness people across the globe. Of course there are many that suggest differently, giving the sort of details you have. At the end of the day, I think the best thing to do, with regards to cardio and fat burning, is to test out the times and pre-cardio fueling that works best for you and gives results.

There is no doubt that pre and post workout fueling before weight training and lifting (non cardio sessions) is very important.

I haven't looked at the weight training side at all so I will accept what you are saying but the cardio stuff is classic trainer logic which is just repeated and people accept it because they think it makes sense. I don't think there is any kind of credible argument for the don't eat before cardio.

[Azure]

I'm not going to go find the research, but a lot of people on other fitness boards I read have said they have had favorable results with doing low impact cardio on an empty stomach early in the morning.

[GGG]

I'm not going to go find the research, but a lot of people on other fitness boards I read have said they have had favorable results with doing low impact cardio on an empty stomach early in the morning.

I am being lazy in not digging out any kind of real science to back myself up but anecdotal results greatly influenced by the placebo effect does not make it sound advice. I should add that doing long work outs beyond your glycogen stores not eating MAY be beneficial. But you are talking about 2hr plus cardio efforts which is not really tbat relavent to the average person trying to lose weight or even the average athlete.

If it "works" fine you likely aren't doing any harm but you might as well buy my rock that keeps tigers away.

[Thor]

I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training in the mornings on an empty stomach, fasting about 3hrs after I wake up, so eating about 30m to 1hr after my morning workout.

Example of 1 set is say 1 min rowing machine all out (so you can barely breath when that minute is up) and 4 mins of rest, not walking around, just pure rest. Do this 8 times, I mix in 3-4 exercises to keep it fresh, and this has been incredibly effective for me.

Certainly research is starting to back this up more and more as well, quick high intensity training for me is WAY more fun than 45 mins on a treadmill.

[GreenLantern]

I have only ever done HIT, it is by far the best (for me) for burning fat while maintaining muscle.

I hope we didn't chase DA out of this thread by being too aggressive, if so I apologize, please come back.

[Flabbibulin]

My approach when I first got into fitness was getting advice from those that both looked the part and had some level of education in the area. I would have a hard time listening to a personal trainer, that may be educated, but is in awful shape.

I admit fitness advice on the web is like golf advice on the web- the person may claim to be a scratch golfer or have a single digit body fat %, but at the end of the day, all they really are is an internet expert that may or may not be giving sound advice. No harm really in this I suppose, but you don't really know who it is coming from.

[GGG]

I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training in the mornings on an empty stomach, fasting about 3hrs after I wake up, so eating about 30m to 1hr after my morning workout.

Example of 1 set is say 1 min rowing machine all out (so you can barely breath when that minute is up) and 4 mins of rest, not walking around, just pure rest. Do this 8 times, I mix in 3-4 exercises to keep it fresh, and this has been incredibly effective for me.

Certainly research is starting to back this up more and more as well, quick high intensity training for me is WAY more fun than 45 mins on a treadmill.

HIT (high intensity interval training) is neat stuff but you really need to be committed to get the benefits. I am the oppisite of you where I would way rather go for a run outside in almost any weather than do any HIT. I am just dying by the time you try to do your 3rd or 4th set.

Whats crazy about HIT is that the 8 Minutes of actual effort provides equal or better cardiovascular health than running for 30-45 minutes a day.

[woob]

Hey DA - I know the original title of this thread is Nutrition, but it seems to have gone off the tracks a bit with training/workout discussion. I'd like to comment a bit on the nutrition/diet aspect again.

My partner got hit last year with an autoimmune disease that affected her skin. Little help from doctors left her searching for some kind of relief from the itchy/dryness of the condition. She eventually came across people online with same condition who had attacked the condition with a change in diet. So we embarked on a discovery of removing gluten, dairy, and eventually going full paleo in our daily eating. While the diet change definitely had a huge impact on the AI condition, it also had a side benefit of weight loss, change in energy, and just an all around improvement of how we feel day to day.

From my perspective, throughout my adult life I've always been a pretty constant weight, only fluctuating +/- 5 pounds for as long as I can remember. I've always been slim. After making this change in how we eat, I've dropped 20lbs in a month, no change in exercise, daily routine, etc. Just the change in diet. And I've kept that 20lbs off for 3 months now, just back to my regular fluctuations of +/- 5lbs. It's crazy to me to think that that weight just came off through changing how we eat in this matter, considering I never even thought I really had much weight to lose.

Regarding eating paleo, about the only thing I have odd cravings for is crackers, as I always used to snack on crackers. I've recently found a full paleo dough online which I'm going to make crackers with and see how they come out. Other than that, I don't miss any of it. I don't miss cheese, ice cream, bread, pasta and such. Also on the plus side, we've discovered a lot of good tasting food combinations, new food items, etc. We've even noticed that our palette has changed as well.

Anyways, thought I'd add my story to the mix here.

TL;DR: Went full paleo due to partner's health - Love it, feel better, lost weight, and discovered some awesome food in the process.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Nutrition is a complex and personal journey.

Not everyone has the same body, body chemistry, or GI tract ecosystems. Managing diets on the macro-nutrient level is effective to a point, but it sure sounds like you're looking to tune your body composition/performance well beyond what these guidelines and "common knowledge" can provide.

The Canadian Food Guide without a doubt will fail you on this journey.

Two super common mistakes that people make when trying to move beyond their normal results is ignoring the effects that HORMONES and DISEASE have on the body.

You are already on this path, but continue educating yourself. I can't tell you what will work for you - you need to find a guide that has achieved success under similar conditions as you and start there.

Essentially, you need to write your own manual, and it's going to be through trial and error. Be systematic, use data where you can, be as in tune with your body and moods as possible as these are massive clues when you can't rely on blood tests and other data based measurements.

Where can you start?

As much of an ass he is sometimes, I really like reading anything published by Charles Poliquin and his group of companies. He's been at strength and conditioning coaching for years, and has developed a lot of successful systems and brands, but really leaves a lot of threads to start pulling on where ever he goes. Here are some semi-relevant links that might get you started... really, follow up on his references because that's where the good stuff is.

10 Fat Loss Mistakes (http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/996/The_Super_List_Of_Fat_Loss_Mistakes_Ten_Reasons_Yo .aspx)

Body Composition - Carnivores vs Vegetarians (http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/847/Achieving_Optimal_Body_Composition_Carnivores_Vs_V .aspx)

Best Tools and Eating Programs for Fat Loss (http://www.pansport.rs/forum/index.php?topic=7565.0)

Here is an interesting vegan bodybuilder (http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=article_ed_003) reference I found while searching this topic.

I also like reading Robb Wolf's blog/books - a definitive source on Paleo for combating chrons/colitis, IBS, etc SO much interesting reading here. This blog entry in particular does a really entertaining job of grouping seven types of paleo eater (http://robbwolf.com/2012/10/24/shades-paleo/?fb_action_ids=10151469878316500&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B416558188408561%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D)s, LOL

Mark's daily apple is also a must read, for a lot of reasons. Primal Living in a Modern World (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz2riSkUNfM) - another credible information leader who references source material.

Last but not least, I recently stumbled upon John Durant of huntergatherer (http://huntergatherer.com/), after hearing his podcast on AoM on his book "Paleo Manifesto". He wanted to go way beyond diet and talk about how other factors influenced our lifestyle and health as we moved from paleo-like living, agrarian living to the modern world. Some things that blew me away were how important factors like the rules of hygiene defined and promoted by pre-new testament religions; the role of violence during paleo era life (and how to effectively incorporate it today); the importance of intermittent fasting, especially once we entered into agrarian living... SUPER interesting stuff.

The thing for me that is important about the paleo movement is not so much about eating clean, or eating like a caveman, or whatever the hell that is... but it's about using our modern minds to elevate our relationship with the CORE DESIGN of our bodies, honouring what is in our DNA, to live the best life possible - best energy levels, best moods, best mobility, best strength, best creativity, all of it. We are awesome machines, and we used to have to rely on evolution to guide the way to these best lives, but increased self awareness and design of environmental factors has really screwed that "trust factor" up beyond the point of repair.

Food, rest and exercise are indeed the best medicines we have for daily living.

[Thor]

HIT (high intensity interval training) is neat stuff but you really need to be committed to get the benefits. I am the oppisite of you where I would way rather go for a run outside in almost any weather than do any HIT. I am just dying by the time you try to do your 3rd or 4th set.

Whats crazy about HIT is that the 8 Minutes of actual effort provides equal or better cardiovascular health than running for 30-45 minutes a day.

Yeah I understand its not for everyone, but I absolutely love it.

[AcGold]

I've personally found the fastest way to give my metabolism a huge boost is to superset sets of things like chinups, pushups, light jogging, elastic bands, light cables and just don't stop for 15 minute reps. Do 4 of them per workout with about 6 or 7 different things per set and keep moving. Best place for it is in a track/gym setup such as at Mount Royal or the UofC. Can eat pretty much whatever I want and don't gain any weight doing this. Stay away from heavy lifting kinds of things and do a lot of range of motion, stretching, low impact cardio kinds of things and you'll lose weight. I find the key is to not stop moving, just keep going until the 15 minutes is up, get some water, do it again.

[troutman]

Articles I have been reading:

Should you be “Eating Clean”? (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/should-you-be-eating-clean/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/should-you-be-eating-clean/

Categorizing foods as or diets as “clean” is clearly a successful marketing strategy, but is less useful when it comes to daily decision-making about good nutrition. Some of the concepts that underlie “eating clean” are supported by good scientific evidence. But the “eating clean” philosophy is imbued with a considerable amount of pseudoscience and a large amount of the naturalistic fallacy. Calories matter, and supplements probably don’t. For that reason, I would not recommend any of the “Eat Clean” and related books. There are too many inaccuracies to compensate for the good advice buried within. Dietary design needs to be based on good evidence, not anecdotes and logical fallacies.

It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/its-a-part-of-my-paleo-fantasy-its-a-part-of-my-paleo-dream/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/its-a-part-of-my-paleo-fantasy-its-a-part-of-my-paleo-dream/

Ever since the rise of science and industry, there has long been a significant proportion of the population who distrust, fear, and sometimes even loathe modernity. Science changes too fast; it is thought to endanger “spiritual matters”; it tramples on “traditional values.” People fantasize about and long for a (nonexistent) time long past, when humans supposedly lived in harmony with their environment, and view science, specifically for the purposes of this discussion modern biomedicine, has having participating in destroying that “ancient wisdom.” We see strains of this tendency not just in medicine and “integrative medicine” but in literature and many other areas as well. Films such as Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_in_Avatar) and Dances With Wolves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dances_with_wolves), among many others, portray scientists and “Western” man as rapacious and ready to destroy a race of hunter-gatherers and early agrarian people who are portrayed as living in complete harmony with nature. CAM and the Paleo diet share this fear of modernity as an underlying assumption even as their advocates use and misuse evolution to “prove” their worth. This is nothing new, and the rationale behind the Paleo diet is nothing more than, as Zuk has put it, the evolutionary search for our perfect past (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20essa.html). Unfortunately, fantasy is not reality, and we humans have long been known to abuse and despoil our environment, even back in those “paleo” days

Death as a Foodborne Illness Curable by Veganism (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

The video confirmed what I already knew from evaluating the published evidence: it is healthier to eat more plant-based foods and less red meat. It didn’t convince me that we should categorically eliminate all animal products. The vegan diet can be a healthy one, and I wouldn’t discourage anyone from following it; but the evidence for health benefits is nowhere near as impressive or definitive as the true believers think. Death is not “a foodborne illness” and eliminating all animal products is not a cure-all.

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…

[Devils'Advocate]

I have only ever done HIT, it is by far the best (for me) for burning fat while maintaining muscle.

I hope we didn't chase DA out of this thread by being too aggressive, if so I apologize, please come back.

Still here. Been busy, not scared away. :)

I've decided that for now, I'll simply split my breakfast. Half before the workout and add a protein shake after the workout. So, like, blackberries in greek yogurt when I wake up and then shake after the gym. Just have to bring the powder into work. That should be sufficient enough to get the protein up where my PT suggested it should be, and resolves the issue trying to get a good breakfast somewhere between the gym and work (not too likely... mostly greasy spoon diners and fast food) or bringing both a breakfast *AND* lunch to work each day.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

[blankall]

Articles I have been reading:

Should you be “Eating Clean”? (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/should-you-be-eating-clean/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/should-you-be-eating-clean/

Categorizing foods as or diets as “clean” is clearly a successful marketing strategy, but is less useful when it comes to daily decision-making about good nutrition. Some of the concepts that underlie “eating clean” are supported by good scientific evidence. But the “eating clean” philosophy is imbued with a considerable amount of pseudoscience and a large amount of the naturalistic fallacy. Calories matter, and supplements probably don’t. For that reason, I would not recommend any of the “Eat Clean” and related books. There are too many inaccuracies to compensate for the good advice buried within. Dietary design needs to be based on good evidence, not anecdotes and logical fallacies.

It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/its-a-part-of-my-paleo-fantasy-its-a-part-of-my-paleo-dream/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/its-a-part-of-my-paleo-fantasy-its-a-part-of-my-paleo-dream/

Ever since the rise of science and industry, there has long been a significant proportion of the population who distrust, fear, and sometimes even loathe modernity. Science changes too fast; it is thought to endanger “spiritual matters”; it tramples on “traditional values.” People fantasize about and long for a (nonexistent) time long past, when humans supposedly lived in harmony with their environment, and view science, specifically for the purposes of this discussion modern biomedicine, has having participating in destroying that “ancient wisdom.” We see strains of this tendency not just in medicine and “integrative medicine” but in literature and many other areas as well. Films such as Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_in_Avatar) and Dances With Wolves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dances_with_wolves), among many others, portray scientists and “Western” man as rapacious and ready to destroy a race of hunter-gatherers and early agrarian people who are portrayed as living in complete harmony with nature. CAM and the Paleo diet share this fear of modernity as an underlying assumption even as their advocates use and misuse evolution to “prove” their worth. This is nothing new, and the rationale behind the Paleo diet is nothing more than, as Zuk has put it, the evolutionary search for our perfect past (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20essa.html). Unfortunately, fantasy is not reality, and we humans have long been known to abuse and despoil our environment, even back in those “paleo” days

Death as a Foodborne Illness Curable by Veganism (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

The video confirmed what I already knew from evaluating the published evidence: it is healthier to eat more plant-based foods and less red meat. It didn’t convince me that we should categorically eliminate all animal products. The vegan diet can be a healthy one, and I wouldn’t discourage anyone from following it; but the evidence for health benefits is nowhere near as impressive or definitive as the true believers think. Death is not “a foodborne illness” and eliminating all animal products is not a cure-all.

As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science:The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…


What all of these fad diets have in common is they have:

1) restricted calories; and
2) adequate or higher levels of protein.

There's nothing evil about bread/carbs/processed food/etc...other than they are all easy sources of calories. Cutting them out of your diet is a really easy way to cut calories though.

....except creatine. That is scientifically proven to work.

[Azure]

Yes, creatine is awesome.

[Flabbibulin]

For what its worth (possibly nothing, but Im bored), here are some of the basic supplements I am into at the moment- and kind of the standard for a lot of gym nuts. To be honest, I have never been sure how much of this gives actual results and how much is just supplement/fitness industry stuff.

I cycle creatine occasionally (monohydrate) and have had mixed results with regards to lifting ability in the gym and long term muscle gain. Most people seem to suggest they are bloated and retaining extra water when they are on a high daily dose of creatine. Because of that, it is usually used by people looking to put on muscle mass and maybe not so much for people looking to lean out and cut (up for debate). It does seem to soften you up a bit at first, which is noticeable if you are already quite lean. Cells retain the water and your body weight goes up.

Glutamine is another popular one that supports muscle repair and growth- I usually take 5g before and after workout and a once or twice at other times through out the day with meals. The need to supplement glutamine, in otherwise healthy adults, and its benefits are debated.

I usually take a multivitamin. Mega Men sport is usually what I go with- the vita paks are just too expensive.

I have tried an endless number of pre workout energy supplements and have settled on the caffeine free Rivalus Complx5. Being caffeine free is important for me as I workout in the evening and would have sleeping issues otherwise. Up for debate whether it adds to my lifting energy like a caffeine supplement would.

Take your pick in whey protein powders. Gold Standard seems to be very popular at the moment, as it dissolves easily and tastes ok. I usually go with vanilla as it seems to work the best when you mix it with oatmeal etc.

I think fat burners are a bit of a joke- if you want that kind of energy from caffeine, just drink a triple espresso.

On the opposite side, weight gainers are also a strange thing imo- usually just loads of sugar and protein. I would think it would be better just to make a homemade weight gainer with whey, oats, fruits, peanut butter??

As far as protein bars, the majority of them are basically chocolate bars (usually bad tasting ones other than Detour) with 30 grams of protein. The majority of protein bars are loaded with sugar alcohols as opposed to sugar. Two decent ones though are definitely quest bars (20 grams protein, 20 grams of fiber) and Daryls all natural protein bars. There is a woman at our work trying to diet that eats the large Detour bar every morning for breakfast as her meal replacement. umm...

edit- post on the next page by Street Pharm reminded me of vitamin D, which I simply take because doctor told me I am fairly low.

[Azure]

There is absolutely no need to cycle creatine. Loading for a few days to saturate the muscles and then taking 5g per day for the rest of your life is good enough. Drinking enough water is a must, and taking it after you eat is probably a good idea too.

Seriously, it is safe, cheap and it works.

[Flabbibulin]

^^^ Ya, I think cycling was how it was recommended a long time ago and the standard thought now is there is no need to. I have always just been in the habit of cycling for 2-3 months- initial loading days followed by before/after workout on gym days and in the morning on non gym days, but most experts now seem to suggest you never really need to take a break. I've even read you don't necessarily need to load??

[Azure]

http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/

Creatine monohydrate can be supplemented through a loading protocol. To start loading, take 0.3g/kg bodyweight for 5-7 days, then follow with a daily 5g dose. Using 2g daily is another option, as that is enough to maintain average creatine stores.

There are many different forms of creatine available on the market, but creatine monohydrate is the cheapest and most effective form of creatine. Micronized creatine is easier to dissolve in water, which may make it easier to supplement.

Creatine is usually taken daily.

Too much creatine at once may cause diarrhea. Not drinking enough water while taking creatine may also cause stomach cramping.

Great site. Looks of indepth analysis on the stuff they look at.

Editor's thoughts.

I honestly see no reason why somebody shouldn't supplement creatine, nor do I see any logical basis for the seeming 'fear' of this compound in society.
It's safe, it's healthy, it's cheap, and for most people, it just works. Get some Creatine Monohydrate, take 5g a day, and you're good to go.
If humans didn't make any in the body, this thing would be a vitamin. There do exist deficiency symptoms that result in mental ######ation.[2] They're rare, but they pretty much establish the importance of this molecule as a vitamin-like compound.

I take 5g after lunch, and 5g along with my PWO shake. I know its overdoing it, but it works well for me.

[Flabbibulin]

^^^ wow, great site. Just checking out their entry on Glutamine, which I know isn't as well researched as creatine.

[gladaki]

Diet is the key for any fitness regime. I am not a huge supporter of supplements and believe you can achieve your desire fitness by changing your diet. If you are trying to loose weight, I will recommend taking a look at Ultimate Diet 2.0. Its very well written with focus on reducing fat if you have 15 % Body fat composition. But if you are on higher side of Body fat then you can pretty much reduce it by Cardio and new diet regime. There is plenty of information available online. I use to follow a guy name scooby on youtube and found his tips very helpful. He started his own website
http://www.sweat4health.com

Where you can keep progress diaries for free and have access to plenty of information for free.

[Guest1]

I have a question about creatine... I swim 3-4 times a week. It's my main workout and what I train for. I found lately because I've been pushing myself harder in workouts. I really fatigued at the end and my muscles are sore. I bought a creatine/protein powder to have after swimming. Will this help? Or is it more for people that are working with weights.

The only other things I take is a multi vitamin and a type 2 collagen supplement (helps with my back problems). Keep in mind that I am a girl and I'm not trying to "bulk" or shred. Anything else I can do to help with performance? (legally)

[Qwerty]

Quick Question; Do you guys take a multi-vitamin/mineral type pill daily to make sure you are getting everything needed? If so which do you recommend?

[troutman]

Quick Question; Do you guys take a multi-vitamin/mineral type pill daily to make sure you are getting everything needed? If so which do you recommend?

The evidence is mounting that we do not normally need multi-vitamins:

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2013/12/16/case-closed-multivitamins-should-not-be-used/

Writing about three new papers in the Annals of Internal Medicine that find no benefits for the use of multivitamins — only the latest in a long line of negative findings — Eliseo Guallar and colleagues write (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253): …we believe that the case is closed— supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful. These vitamins should not be used for chronic disease prevention. Enough is enough.

[Street Pharmacist]

Quick Question; Do you guys take a multi-vitamin/mineral type pill daily to make sure you are getting everything needed? If so which do you recommend?

No. There is no evidence of any benefit. A very large industry based on assumed benefit. I only recommend getting vitamins/minerals based on lab results with the exception of vitamin D, which has demonstrable benefits for pretty much anyone

[gladaki]

Quick Question; Do you guys take a multi-vitamin/mineral type pill daily to make sure you are getting everything needed? If so which do you recommend?

Vitamins are organic compounds that play a wide variety of important rolesin metabolism. The most important role vitamins play is as co-factors for various enzyme reactions. Most of the compounds identified as vitamins
need to be obtained from food - our bodies cannot synthesize them. Afailure to obtain adequate amounts of one or more vitamins results in de-ficiency diseases. so if your diet is good and has enough green vegetables you dont really need any extra supplements. If not picking GNC multivitamins or any other known brand will help

[gladaki]

The evidence is mounting that we do not normally need multi-vitamins:

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2013/12/16/case-closed-multivitamins-should-not-be-used/

Writing about three new papers in the Annals of Internal Medicine that find no benefits for the use of multivitamins — only the latest in a long line of negative findings — Eliseo Guallar and colleagues write (http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253): …we believe that the case is closed— supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful. These vitamins should not be used for chronic disease prevention. Enough is enough.



Studies dont indicate about the participants diet. May be they are getting enough vitamins from their diet so any extra supplement wont help here. In one of the case studies participants are doctors itself who I assume take good care of themselves. It all depend on the sample they are taking. My 2 cents is if your diet is full of green stuff you dont need any vitamin capsules.

[Azure]

I have a question about creatine... I swim 3-4 times a week. It's my main workout and what I train for. I found lately because I've been pushing myself harder in workouts. I really fatigued at the end and my muscles are sore. I bought a creatine/protein powder to have after swimming. Will this help? Or is it more for people that are working with weights.

The only other things I take is a multi vitamin and a type 2 collagen supplement (helps with my back problems). Keep in mind that I am a girl and I'm not trying to "bulk" or shred. Anything else I can do to help with performance? (legally)

Creatine can help with endurance type activities. Nobody really knows how much.

It definitely helps with recovery. What kind did you buy?

[Azure]

Studies dont indicate about the participants diet. May be they are getting enough vitamins from their diet so any extra supplement wont help here. In one of the case studies participants are doctors itself who I assume take good care of themselves. It all depend on the sample they are taking. My 2 cents is if your diet is full of green stuff you dont need any vitamin capsules.

Plus, for those days where you can't get enough greens, a multi vitamin won't hurt.

[Street Pharmacist]

Vitamins are organic compounds that play a wide variety of important rolesin metabolism. The most important role vitamins play is as co-factors for various enzyme reactions. Most of the compounds identified as vitamins
need to be obtained from food - our bodies cannot synthesize them. Afailure to obtain adequate amounts of one or more vitamins results in de-ficiency diseases. so if your diet is good and has enough green vegetables you dont really need any extra supplements. If not picking GNC multivitamins or any other known brand will help

How will it help? Again, science isn't with that statement

[gladaki]

No. There is no evidence of any benefit. A very large industry based on assumed benefit. I only recommend getting vitamins/minerals based on lab results with the exception of vitamin D, which has demonstrable benefits for pretty much anyone
Overconsumption of vitamin A and Vitamin D can result in symptoms of toxicity...

[Azure]

http://examine.com/faq/do-i-need-a-multivitamin.html

It isn't as clear cut either way. As long as it outright harmful, which it has no reason to be if you have half a bran about taking it, I will continue taking a multi on days I know my diet isn't up to par.

[Azure]

Overconsumption of vitamin A and Vitamin D can result in symptoms of toxicity...

And exactly how much Vitamin D does one need to consume in order for it to be toxic?

[gladaki]

How will it help? Again, science isn't with that statement

You have to get vitamins from somewhere either take good diet or eat supplements. I am never in favour of supplements. But below article is quite interesting...
copied from
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/20/food-nutrients-vitamin-supplements.aspx

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report,1 (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/20/food-nutrients-vitamin-supplements.aspx#_edn1) dated September 10, 2010, highlights one of the core problems encountered by most Americans, and that is lack of access, availability, and affordability of fresh, whole fruits and vegetables. According to the CDC:
"A diet high in fruits and vegetables can reduce the risk for many leading causes of death and can play an important role in weight management.
Healthy People 2010 objectives for fruits and vegetables include targets of increasing to 75 percent the proportion of persons aged ≥2 years who consume two or more servings of fruit daily and to 50 percent those who consume three or more servings of vegetables daily."
Americans fall far short of such targets. According to the CDC's report, a mere 32.5 percent of adults consumed fruit two or more times per day in 2009, and just over 26 percent ate vegetables three or more times per day. Overall, no significant changes in vegetable consumption were noted from 2000 to 2009, while fruit consumption actually fell a couple of percentage points... According to the report:

[Street Pharmacist]

Overconsumption of vitamin A and Vitamin D can result in symptoms of toxicity...

As can most of not all vitamins/minerals. Vitamin A in higher doses is a known teratogen (causes birth defects) and can cause damage to the liver and cause other deleterious effects. Vitamin D in OTC doses is not a concern

[gladaki]

And exactly how much Vitamin D does one need to consume in order for it to be toxic?
copied from
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/am-i-getting-too-much-vitamin-d/

Although most people take vitamin D supplements without any problems, it’s possible to take too much. This is called vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D toxicity, where vitamin D can be harmful, usually happens if you take 40,000 IU per day for a couple of months or longer, or take a very large one-time dose.
Vitamin D is fat-soluble, which means your body has a hard time getting rid of it if you take too much. When you take large amounts of vitamin D, your liver produces too much of a chemical called 25(OH)D.
When your 25(OH)D levels are too high, this can cause high levels of calcium to develop in your blood. High blood calcium is a condition called hypercalcemia.

[gladaki]

As can most of not all vitamins/minerals. Vitamin A in higher doses is a known teratogen (causes birth defects) and can cause damage to the liver and cause other deleterious effects. Vitamin D in OTC doses is not a concern
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/am-i-getting-too-much-vitamin-d/

[Street Pharmacist]

You have to get vitamins from somewhere either take good diet or eat supplements. I am never in favour of supplements. But below article is quite interesting...
copied from
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/20/food-nutrients-vitamin-supplements.aspx

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report,1 (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/20/food-nutrients-vitamin-supplements.aspx#_edn1) dated September 10, 2010, highlights one of the core problems encountered by most Americans, and that is lack of access, availability, and affordability of fresh, whole fruits and vegetables. According to the CDC:
"A diet high in fruits and vegetables can reduce the risk for many leading causes of death and can play an important role in weight management.
Healthy People 2010 objectives for fruits and vegetables include targets of increasing to 75 percent the proportion of persons aged ≥2 years who consume two or more servings of fruit daily and to 50 percent those who consume three or more servings of vegetables daily."
Americans fall far short of such targets. According to the CDC's report, a mere 32.5 percent of adults consumed fruit two or more times per day in 2009, and just over 26 percent ate vegetables three or more times per day. Overall, no significant changes in vegetable consumption were noted from 2000 to 2009, while fruit consumption actually fell a couple of percentage points... According to the report:

This doesn't help your point though. Taking supplements does not necessarily help you if you have a poor diet. That's a leap that isn't as of yet proven, and doubtful

[Street Pharmacist]

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/am-i-getting-too-much-vitamin-d/
....Is this meant to further my point? OTC doses are no higher than 1000iu

[Ashasx]

Can anyone tell me if things like Aquafina Plus Vitamins or Vitamen Water Zero are good or bad? Am I being bamboozled?

[Street Pharmacist]

Can anyone tell me if things like Aquafina Plus Vitamins or Vitamen Water Zero are good or bad? Am I being bamboozled?

You're being bamboozled. There is no known health benefit, and sugary drinks if anything are unhealthy

[Ashasx]

You're being bamboozled. There is no known health benefit, and sugary drinks if anything are unhealthy

Well they have 10 and zero calories respectively. They also have fewer carbs than any diet pop I know of.

I'm just not a big tea/coffee guy so it's hard for me to find something to drink in the morning.

[Street Pharmacist]

Well they have 10 and zero calories respectively. They also have fewer carbs than any diet pop I know of.

I'm just not a big tea/coffee guy so it's hard for me to find something to drink in the morning.

Then it's no difference to diet pop

[Ashasx]

Then it's no difference to diet pop

So if I'm not a big fan of tea/coffee, am I SOL?

[Street Pharmacist]

So if I'm not a big fan of tea/coffee, am I SOL?

It's no healthier or more harmful than coffee or tea I'd imagine. I'm just saying the vitamins are a red herring

[gladaki]

I have a question about creatine... I swim 3-4 times a week. It's my main workout and what I train for. I found lately because I've been pushing myself harder in workouts. I really fatigued at the end and my muscles are sore. I bought a creatine/protein powder to have after swimming. Will this help? Or is it more for people that are working with weights.

The only other things I take is a multi vitamin and a type 2 collagen supplement (helps with my back problems). Keep in mind that I am a girl and I'm not trying to "bulk" or shred. Anything else I can do to help with performance? (legally)

You dont need any vitamin capsules. Simply cleaning your diet and high quality food will be sufficient. Regarding post and pre your workout its good to take some carb and protein before and after your workout. Carbs will increase the Glycogen level in your body.


Glycogen is the fundamental fuel used to sustain both glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation, fatigue is readily apparent as cellular resources are exhausted.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9232550


Taking carbs and protien (Banana with one or half scoop of protein) before and after workout is recommend by researchers John Ivy and Robert
Portman in their recent book “Nutrient Timing”.


Now regarding creatine. Its important to understand what exactly it do...


Our body use ATP (adenosine triphosphate) for high intensity training like sprinting or weight lifting. But ATP gets depleted rapidly during workout since it need to loose phosphate to become adenosine phosphate (ADP). Now creatine recharge ADP in to ATP by creatine Phosphate. So more creatine helps in faster recharging for sports like sprinting and weight lifting.


For endurance sports like swiming researchers are still divided. But I still recommend as i see there are more advantages based on various studies.. Its cheap and safe. Creatine monohydrate is chepaest creatine available in market. I dont think buying the more expensive ones has any advantages no matter what supplement companies say..


Also one thing you add is a teaspoon of flax oil or throw in some flax seeds in your salad..Its healthy



Woa, I should start writing a blog :)

[Righteous1]

I've seen some lean gains with high fat / high protein diet, along with intermittent fasting (8 feeding window)

Also.. Pop = diabetes in a can

[Azure]

copied from
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/am-i-getting-too-much-vitamin-d/

Although most people take vitamin D supplements without any problems, it’s possible to take too much. This is called vitamin D toxicity. Vitamin D toxicity, where vitamin D can be harmful, usually happens if you take 40,000 IU per day for a couple of months or longer, or take a very large one-time dose.
Vitamin D is fat-soluble, which means your body has a hard time getting rid of it if you take too much. When you take large amounts of vitamin D, your liver produces too much of a chemical called 25(OH)D.
When your 25(OH)D levels are too high, this can cause high levels of calcium to develop in your blood. High blood calcium is a condition called hypercalcemia.

40,000 IU would be the equivalent of taking 40 pills per day for 90 days straight. Doable, but hardly a concern.

I've been taking 6,000 IU for 3 years straight and my blood levels are quite fine.

[Azure]

There is no point in buying the expensive creatine. You can get pretty cheap stuff on bodybuilding dot com.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

^ yeah I just but the unflavoured in bulk and mix it in w shakes etc.

[TheSutterDynasty]

You dont need any vitamin capsules. Simply cleaning your diet and high quality food will be sufficient. Regarding post and pre your workout its good to take some carb and protein before and after your workout. Carbs will increase the Glycogen level in your body.


Glycogen is the fundamental fuel used to sustain both glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation, fatigue is readily apparent as cellular resources are exhausted.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9232550


Taking carbs and protien (Banana with one or half scoop of protein) before and after workout is recommend by researchers John Ivy and Robert
Portman in their recent book “Nutrient Timing”.


Now regarding creatine. Its important to understand what exactly it do...


Our body use ATP (adenosine triphosphate) for high intensity training like sprinting or weight lifting. But ATP gets depleted rapidly during workout since it need to loose phosphate to become adenosine phosphate (ADP). Now creatine recharge ADP in to ATP by creatine Phosphate. So more creatine helps in faster recharging for sports like sprinting and weight lifting.


For endurance sports like swiming researchers are still divided. But I still recommend as i see there are more advantages based on various studies.. Its cheap and safe. Creatine monohydrate is chepaest creatine available in market. I dont think buying the more expensive ones has any advantages no matter what supplement companies say..


Also one thing you add is a teaspoon of flax oil or throw in some flax seeds in your salad..Its healthy



Woa, I should start writing a blog :)

Good post. Creatine actually might slow you down swimming because if you respond to it you'll gain 5 - 10 pounds of water mass. It's also important to note how slight the advantages of it are, though it's also pretty cheap.

Just make sure you load it properly or your body will lose its ability to make its own!

[schteve_d]

I'm doing High Intensity Interval Training in the mornings on an empty stomach, fasting about 3hrs after I wake up, so eating about 30m to 1hr after my morning workout.

Example of 1 set is say 1 min rowing machine all out (so you can barely breath when that minute is up) and 4 mins of rest, not walking around, just pure rest. Do this 8 times, I mix in 3-4 exercises to keep it fresh, and this has been incredibly effective for me.

Certainly research is starting to back this up more and more as well, quick high intensity training for me is WAY more fun than 45 mins on a treadmill.


Did this approach come from the advice you received on the show? I ask as it's a resource I trust. I just find it kind of interesting as it seems to go against a few traditional ways of thinking - particularly the morning fast.

I continue to hear that you should really get something...anything healthy...in your stomach quickly upon rising to kick-start your metabolism.

Then there is the advice I see more often than not to fuel yourself for HIIT and finally the recovery aspect and waiting again after your workout for a period of time before fuelling.

[gladaki]

Good post. Creatine actually might slow you down swimming because if you respond to it you'll gain 5 - 10 pounds of water mass. It's also important to note how slight the advantages of it are, though it's also pretty cheap.

Just make sure you load it properly or your body will lose its ability to make its own!
You dont need a loading phase ...Just take 1 scoop every day. Creatine has lot more advantage. 5-10 pound is a big number ..I cant comment on it as i never experienced or read about it much.

[gladaki]

Did this approach come from the advice you received on the show? I ask as it's a resource I trust. I just find it kind of interesting as it seems to go against a few traditional ways of thinking - particularly the morning fast.

I continue to hear that you should really get something...anything healthy...in your stomach quickly upon rising to kick-start your metabolism.

Then there is the advice I see more often than not to fuel yourself for HIIT and finally the recovery aspect and waiting again after your workout for a period of time before fuelling.

I think he is just starving himself to loose some fat. As i said above you need to fuel ur cells with glycogen to get a best work HIIT workout. Its all about science..

[Guest1]

Thanks for the input! I do try to eat a banana before practice, as it helps with cramps in my calves.
My swimming isn't really endurance. I don't go in and swim for an hour straight. We do interval sets. Like 4x100's on a descending pace or 8x50's hard with 15 seconds rest. Or with a bit more distance sets like ladder sets
1x25
1x50
1x75
1x100
1x150
1x200
1x200
1x150
1x100
1x75
1x50
1x25
So we do aerobic and anaerobic work... so would the creatine work? I checked the label and it also has leucine, arginine, taurine, alpha lipoic acid, phenylalanine. And the creatine's are the monohydrate and phosphate kind?
As for the 5 lbs of water weight gain: welcome to my life, once a month every month for the past 28 years.

[gladaki]

Thanks for the input! I do try to eat a banana before practice, as it helps with cramps in my calves.
My swimming isn't really endurance. I don't go in and swim for an hour straight. We do interval sets. Like 4x100's on a descending pace or 8x50's hard with 15 seconds rest. Or with a bit more distance sets like ladder sets
1x25
1x50
1x75
1x100
1x150
1x200
1x200
1x150
1x100
1x75
1x50
1x25
So we do aerobic and anaerobic work... so would the creatine work? I checked the label and it also has leucine, arginine, taurine, alpha lipoic acid, phenylalanine. And the creatine's are the monohydrate and phosphate kind?
As for the 5 lbs of water weight gain: welcome to my life, once a month every month for the past 28 years.

creatine monohydrate simplest form of creatine. Its cheapest. Keep using it. There is plenty of information available online for creatine, keep yourself updated.

[TheSutterDynasty]

You dont need a loading phase ...Just take 1 scoop every day. Creatine has lot more advantage. 5-10 pound is a big number ..I cant comment on it as i never experienced or read about it much.

http://www.acsm.org/docs/publications/OralCreatineSupplementation.pdf

Using a loading phase increases your intra-muscular stores quicker and you intake less per month. ie 5 g / day for 5 days followed by 1g / day for the rest of the month on-cycle. Compared to 5g / day for 30 days.

Again consult the article re: on/off phases. If you just take 5g / day without cycling your body won't produce its own creatine. If you cycle in on a month-to-month basis it results in higher P-CR content even in the off phase but production returns to normal in 4 weeks.

[GGG]

Did this approach come from the advice you received on the show? I ask as it's a resource I trust. I just find it kind of interesting as it seems to go against a few traditional ways of thinking - particularly the morning fast.

I continue to hear that you should really get something...anything healthy...in your stomach quickly upon rising to kick-start your metabolism.

Then there is the advice I see more often than not to fuel yourself for HIIT and finally the recovery aspect and waiting again after your workout for a period of time before fuelling.

I think one reason not to eat before HIIT is to avoid puking up your food.

[schteve_d]

^^

Not sure if you're kidding around or not but I've actually heard this. That's why, at least in how it was explained to me, HIIT really wasn't an ideal first thing in the morning workout. To really benefit you had to be fuelled to make it through a legitimate session but that you needed some digestion to have gone on before-hand!

[SHOGUN]

I've seen some lean gains with high fat / high protein diet, along with intermittent fasting (8 feeding window)

Also.. Pop = diabetes in a can

Some lean gains? You should be shredded. I envy you if you can maintain that for a long period.

[gladaki]

^^

Not sure if you're kidding around or not but I've actually heard this. That's why, at least in how it was explained to me, HIIT really wasn't an ideal first thing in the morning workout. To really benefit you had to be fuelled to make it through a legitimate session but that you needed some digestion to have gone on before-hand!

True. And who eats the food before workout. Give it 30-45 mins for digestion. Its advisable to eat easily digestible carbs.

[Thor]

Did this approach come from the advice you received on the show? I ask as it's a resource I trust. I just find it kind of interesting as it seems to go against a few traditional ways of thinking - particularly the morning fast.

I continue to hear that you should really get something...anything healthy...in your stomach quickly upon rising to kick-start your metabolism.

Then there is the advice I see more often than not to fuel yourself for HIIT and finally the recovery aspect and waiting again after your workout for a period of time before fuelling.

I keep hearing this more and more that morning fast is the way to go, at least for us cutting fat. I have a coffee or two before the HIIT otherwise empty stomach. The show did have us on wake up at 5:30 am and workout at 6:00, then breakfast around 7:30.

My current trainer has me on carb nite and with that its recommended to keep a fast until at least 3hrs after waking up. I am just starting the book for carb nite and I would like to understand the logic in all this, but the common thinking for as long as I can remember is empty stomach before workout for fat burning, eat or shake before weight lifting. Early morning ideal for fat burning, weight lifting around 4-6pm.

[Top Shelf]

If any one is looking for a very realistic body weight simulator, check out the following link.

http://www.niddk.nih.gov/research-funding/at-niddk/labs-branches/LBM/integrative-physiology-section/body-weight-simulator/Pages/body-weight-simulator.aspx

A lot of people underestimate how long it will take them to lose a certain amount of weight.

Also, I've been using http://www.myfitnesspal.com to track the foods i've been eating. If you have a smartphone there is an app, and it makes it stupid easy as it can barcode scan everything I've eaten so far, and add it to your daily food tracker. Highly recommended.

If you have trackers like Fitbit or Jawbone, you can also link those to your MyFitnessPal account to get a better picture of your activity.

[Righteous1]

Some lean gains? You should be shredded. I envy you if you can maintain that for a long period.

I'm hitting a gram of protein per lb roughly (mostly food, supplemented with shakes) so that's definitely helped with the lean gains. But yeah the fat melts, I love it. Took sometime getting used too and of course I'll cheat every once in a while.

Also extend by scivations (bcaas) help me get through the fasts

[GGG]

^^

Not sure if you're kidding around or not but I've actually heard this. That's why, at least in how it was explained to me, HIIT really wasn't an ideal first thing in the morning workout. To really benefit you had to be fuelled to make it through a legitimate session but that you needed some digestion to have gone on before-hand!

Only sort of, I get dry heaves from doing it hence not enjoying very much. Just something to watch out or if people are getting started with it.

[-TC-]

I cut way back on the starchy white carbs (potatos, rice, bread) and refined sugar and lost 35 lbs. last year.

For me, it wasn't activity level, in fact, I was over training.

it was the spikes in glucose levels, which cause your body to produce insulin and turn the result into fat stores.

As soon as I stabilized the glucose levels I started dropping pounds...

You can eat almost anything, within reason, as long as you exercise, drink lots of water and get enough sleep.

[troutman]

Meat and cheese may be as bad as smoking
http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/59199/meat-and-cheese-may-be-as-bad-for-you-as-smoking/

Not only is excessive protein consumption linked to a dramatic rise in cancer mortality, but middle-aged people who eat lots of proteins from animal sources — including meat, milk and cheese — are also more susceptible to early death in general, revealed the study published today in Cell Metabolism. Protein-lovers were 74 percent more likely to die of any cause within the study period than their more low-protein counterparts. They were also several times more likely to die of diabetes.

But how much protein one should eat has long been a controversial topic — muddled by the popularity of protein-heavy diets such as Paleo and Atkins. Before this study, researchers had never shown a definitive correlation between high-protein consumption and mortality risk.

Rather than look at adulthood as one monolithic phase of life, as other researchers have done, the latest study considers how biology changes as we age and how decisions in middle life may play out across the human life span.

In other words, what’s good for you at one age may be damaging at another. Protein controls the growth hormone IGF-I, which helps our bodies grow but has been linked to cancer susceptibility. Levels of IGF-I drop off dramatically after age 65, leading to potential frailty and muscle loss. The study shows that while high-protein intake during middle age is very harmful, it is protective for older adults: those over 65 who ate a moderate- or high-protein diet were less susceptible to disease.

[troutman]

Meta-analysis: All Diets Essentially Equal

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/meta-analysis-all-diets-essentially-equal

The results of this meta-analysis support what previous reviews of the literature have found: adjusting the proportion of macronutrients (fat, protein, carbohydrates) does not seem to be important for weight loss. All that matters is calorie reduction.

What is overwhelmingly more important than the type of diet is the ability to stick to the diet long term. The researchers therefore recommend choosing a diet that is sustainable – making permanent and acceptable changes to your diet rather than going on a temporary diet you find difficult.

It should also be noted that there are health concerns related to diet other than weight control. Eating a varied diet with plenty of fruits and vegetables is generally a good idea.