Intellectual Honesty...

[Karl Racki]

After 10 games:

Sutter Era -
09/10 - 7-2-1 15pts
10/11 - 6-4-0 12 pts
11/12 - 4-5-1 9 pts

Hartley Era -
12/13 - 3-4-3 9 pts

In other words, this year represents the Flames worst start in four years, worse than any during the Sutter era. I didn't bother to go back further (to when they were actually a pretty good team for a few years).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying watching them play this year more than in recent memory (the new additions and emphasis on creativity is fun, if not successful), and I know we have some significant injury concerns, but we all know what excuses are for.

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot, let alone contend for a cup. Not with Sutter gone, not with all the new additions this year, not with the emphasis on creativity, not with the same old aging core/leadership group. I get that the goal is to remain competitive every year, but, ummm, they're not. So when does Feaster's "intellectual honesty" thing actually kick in?

[BigFlameDog]

New coaching staff, a bunch of new players, new system and philosophy, no training camp, some timely injuries etc., etc.

I am not saying these guys are great, I'm just saying it is apples and oranges. This has nothing to do with "intellectual honesty". Feaster is doing what he said he would do for the most part, jury is still out and I don't think he is done yet.

[COGENT]

I'm not saying you're wrong but comparing this year to the past 3 isn't totally fair when considering it started 3 months later than usual with barely any training camp. Not an excuse, just something to consider when comparing.

[East Coast Flame]

I'm not saying you're wrong but comparing this year to the past 3 isn't totally fair when considering it started 3 months later than usual with barely any training camp. Not an excuse, just something to consider when comparing.

Every other team is faced with this same situation

[GreenLantern]

A lot of unfortunate circumstances this season. It doesn't lessen the sting of a horrible start but it does help me understand it.

Few bright spots too though, for instance Backlunds play pre injury was just amazing, Cervenka seems to be getting more comfortable. Bouwmeester has played for the most part the way we always thought he would and Hudler has been a god send.

[blankall]

After 10 games:

Sutter Era -
09/10 - 7-2-1 15pts
10/11 - 6-4-0 12 pts
11/12 - 4-5-1 9 pts

Hartley Era -
12/13 - 3-4-3 9 pts

In other words, this year represents the Flames worst start in four years, worse than any during the Sutter era. I didn't bother to go back further (to when they were actually a pretty good team for a few years).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying watching them play this year more than in recent memory (the new additions and emphasis on creativity is fun, if not successful), and I know we have some significant injury concerns, but we all know what excuses are for.

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot, let alone contend for a cup. Not with Sutter gone, not with all the new additions this year, not with the emphasis on creativity, not with the same old aging core/leadership group. I get that the goal is to remain competitive every year, but, ummm, they're not. So when does Feaster's "intellectual honesty" thing actually kick in?

We've had awful goaltending in several games.

Also, so what if a few Suttre teams got off to a fast start? The 09/10 team did not maintain anywhere close to that pace. It's almost as if you're using a small sample size to make a much larger assertion.

[Plett25]

Every other team is faced with this same situation
A team with a new coach, new players and a new system of play it at a greater disadvantage than teams with more continuity.

[zukes]

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot,

Think I'll reserve judgement and see how the next 10 games go before stating any "facts" such as this.

This is a new team, new coach, new system. They have looked better at times than they have at any time in the last three years.

[SofaProfessor]

I would like him to give it another ten games before he does anything too drastic. See what happens not only with this team but others in the league. San Jose, after their amazing start, has started to cool off a lot. Even if he wanted to blow it all up right now, do you think he could? You're much more likely to get a better value for guys like Iginla closer to the deadline when teams are looking at long playoff pushes and know they need a strong veteran forward or whatever. I know we all have our fingers on the panic button and many of us have already pressed it back in game 2 but we need to chill out, see what happens over the next few weeks and be patient. Otherwise we end up shipping out Iggy for another third liner than can coast around with all of the other third liners we have and the team hasn't really changed at all.

[COGENT]

Every other team is faced with this same situation

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

[neo45]

Sutter took a team that was projected to make the playoffs and failed three years in a row. Hartley is working with a worse team that most experts had in the 12th - 15th range. That is the big difference right there, Hartley is exceeding or at least meeting expectations while Sutter repeatedly failed


Also, the games are twice as good under Hartley. That counts for a lot in my books

[Psytic]

Now that we know Kipper is gone for two weeks I think we could be in for a ride.

[89revival]

New coach, new system blah blah blah, same results....they're not good enough! Wake up! They'll continue to come up with some good efforts and win some games but in the end they'll miss the playoffs and then what? We all get a little excited when they put up an effort like they did in Detroit, but they never keep up that effort for the next 3-5 games. Sure injuries are hurting them, no doubt, but it's also the same guys that are getting hurt with regularity (minus Kipper).....It's too bad that Backlund is turning out to be made of glass cause he's a good player. Cammalari has been quite injury prone in recent years too.....rebuild the team.

They are what they are, average. Anyone expecting much more is kidding themselves on.

[moon]

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

San Jose has been a top 10 team (usually top 3) team in the league for the past 5-7 years. Why wouldn't they be expected to be good this year?

Outside of a few oddities (LA, TO, Mon) the standings look fairly similar to what many would have thought in terms of who is in and who is out right now.

And there is always a few teams that get off to hot starts/slow starts lock out or not.

[BigFlameDog]

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.
Teams that came back mostly intact are the ones running out of the gate....not much of a mystery IMO.

[moon]

Sutter took a team that was projected to make the playoffs and failed three years in a row. Hartley is working with a worse team that most experts had in the 12th - 15th range. That is the big difference right there, Hartley is exceeding or at least meeting expectations while Sutter repeatedly failed


Also, the games are twice as good under Hartley. That counts for a lot in my books

Last season I don't think many people (outside of Flames fans) picked the Flames to make the play-offs and even the year before I think a lot of people were predicting a 6-10 finish for the Flames.

[Komskies]

We've had awful goaltending in several games.

Also, so what if a few Suttre teams got off to a fast start? The 09/10 team did not maintain anywhere close to that pace. It's almost as if you're using a small sample size to make a much larger assertion.

The 09/10 team did maintain that pace throughout November. Here's a thread I started on December 1, 2009

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=83282

[Karl Racki]

I really didn't intend for this to be a Sutter / Hartley thing. Like I said, I am having a lot of fun watching them play this year, even if the results aren't there. Much more than at pretty much any point in the past few years. Also as I said, no doubt we are being hit disproportionately hard by injuries. I'm actually finding myself do the same thing that a lot of you seem to be doing, which is tell myself that a good 10-game stretch is all we need and we're right back in it. Totally true. But in one way or another we've been saying that for at least 3 years now. And we always fall short.

[North East Goon]

This team is inconsistent because it lacks top-end talent who can bring it every night. The best way to acquire top end talent is through the draft. This organization refuses to stock pile picks.

[neo45]

Last season I don't think many people (outside of Flames fans) picked the Flames to make the play-offs and even the year before I think a lot of people were predicting a 6-10 finish for the Flames.

I meant when he inherited the team, the Flames were pretty much universally projected as a playoff team. The second season it was about 50/50 and the third season most people had them in 8/9/10

He still failed all three years though

[Vinny01]

I really wish ownership would allow management to rebuild the team by trading off some high priced assets for prospects/picks and let them tank into the top 3 this year only. This is the year to get a top 5 pick with several top end players up for grabs. I am not one to tout Oiler style rebuild and that is not what I want.

Flames need to make a decision on Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and to a lesser extent Cammy, Tangs, Gio, Glencross. I don't think trading all of them is the answer but I do think we should trade the first 3. Trading Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and bringing back 1st round picks and prospects will allow the Flames to reload quickly and possibly push for the playoffs next year.

Add MacKinnon/Barkov/Drouin to the mix with Sven, Backlund, Brodie the future is looking better. Teams struggling to deal with the cap might be willing to let go of a player if the Flames dangle one of their firsts they acquire by trading the big 3.

When Ken King fired Sutter he called it pushing the reset button but at the end of the day not a whole lot changed. Sure Feaster has been better at his drafting philosophy, trying to bring in young players but he still has tried to win now and failed to capitialize on assets at the deadline. I think Feaster has done a decent job of juggling both as we have better young depth on the farm than we ever had in the past, and the 2011/2012 drafts have turned our prospect pool around significantly. We are still very far away from being a team built to win now or the future however and this is a perfect season to acquire a game changer in the draft and cash in on our aging assets while they still hold some okay value.

[COGENT]

San Jose has been a top 10 team (usually top 3) team in the league for the past 5-7 years. Why wouldn't they be expected to be good this year?

Outside of a few oddities (LA, TO, Mon) the standings look fairly similar to what many would have thought in terms of who is in and who is out right now.

And there is always a few teams that get off to hot starts/slow starts lock out or not.

The OP was comparing the first 10 games for the past 3 seasons, not entire seasons but fine, San Jose was a poor example. However, you can't tell me that you think Chicago being 10-0-2 is normal or just a hot start?

All I'm saying is the late start has caused some odd records though it seems it's starting to balance itself out.

[FlamesAddiction]

Where you start isn't as important as where you finish.

Bump this thread in 39 games.

[moon]

The OP was comparing the first 10 games for the past 3 seasons, not entire seasons but fine, San Jose was a poor example. However, you can't tell me that you think Chicago being 10-0-2 is normal or just a hot start?

All I'm saying is the late start has caused some odd records though it seems it's starting to balance itself out.

I think that Chicago has enough talent that it isn't shocking, especially since Crawford is giving them the goaltending they have been missing the last couple of years.

I think that every year there are odd things that happen and blaming the system, short training camp, new coach seems like just looking for excuses when it really looks like a team that isn't good enough like most outside, non-biased observers predicted.

[COGENT]

Teams that came back mostly intact are the ones running out of the gate....not much of a mystery IMO.

No one called it a mystery, just some oddness is all.

[The Voice of Reason]

I meant when he inherited the team, the Flames were pretty much universally projected as a playoff team. The second season it was about 50/50 and the third season most people had them in 8/9/10

He still failed all three years though

I know I have only pulled 2 sets here, but I present you the Pre-Season/Week 1 NHL Power Rankings for the Sutter Era Calgary Flames:

2009-2010
TSN: 17
CBC: 3

2010-2011
TSN: 22
CBC: Top 10

2011-2012
TSN: 21
CBC: 17

TSN never seemed very optimistic about the Sutter coached Flames.

[Flash Walken]

Where you start isn't as important as where you finish.

Bump this thread in 39 games.

If you're 4 points out of the playoffs after game 10 (in an 82 game schedule), you have a 7% chance of making the playoffs.

[Matty81]

If Feaster was honest with himself he would have admitted that the Flames at the deadline last year, at best, could have got their butts kicked for 1 playoff round and even that was a stretch. They had no hope of being the Kings and nothing near their depth or talent. He would have dealt Jokinen and any other vets who were not in his plans and we'd already be better this year.

I think intellectual honesty is just his little phraseology to placate those calling for a rebuild and he has no intention of doing anything except patching holes in a sinking boat until he gets fired. I'm just not sure if he is so deluded to really believe that this is a cup contending team or if he is just following ownership instructions.

Too bad because I think the fanbase would tolerate and maybe even be happy with a bit of short term pain for long term gain and rebuilding a little doesn't have to involve burning down the whole thing... If you're smart and cash in on chips like Jokinen.

[COGENT]

I think that Chicago has enough talent that it isn't shocking, especially since Crawford is giving them the goaltending they have been missing the last couple of years.

I think that every year there are odd things that happen and blaming the system, short training camp, new coach seems like just looking for excuses when it really looks like a team that isn't good enough like most outside, non-biased observers predicted.

It's Chicago's best start in History...

Yup, not using it as an excuse and yes, the Flames just aren't that good. I just think comparing this season to a regular start just isn't a balanced comparison.

[Psytic]

I really wish ownership would allow management to rebuild the team by trading off some high priced assets for prospects/picks and let them tank into the top 3 this year only. This is the year to get a top 5 pick with several top end players up for grabs. I am not one to tout Oiler style rebuild and that is not what I want.

Flames need to make a decision on Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and to a lesser extent Cammy, Tangs, Gio, Glencross. I don't think trading all of them is the answer but I do think we should trade the first 3. Trading Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and bringing back 1st round picks and prospects will allow the Flames to reload quickly and possibly push for the playoffs next year.

Add MacKinnon/Barkov/Drouin to the mix with Sven, Backlund, Brodie the future is looking better. Teams struggling to deal with the cap might be willing to let go of a player if the Flames dangle one of their firsts they acquire by trading the big 3.

When Ken King fired Sutter he called it pushing the reset button but at the end of the day not a whole lot changed. Sure Feaster has been better at his drafting philosophy, trying to bring in young players but he still has tried to win now and failed to capitialize on assets at the deadline. I think Feaster has done a decent job of juggling both as we have better young depth on the farm than we ever had in the past, and the 2011/2012 drafts have turned our prospect pool around significantly. We are still very far away from being a team built to win now or the future however and this is a perfect season to acquire a game changer in the draft and cash in on our aging assets while they still hold some okay value.

We still don't know if the results of the draft will turn out better sadly either. Bart has already had a few injuries in his young career, Johnny Hockey is still a crap shoot to make the NHL with his size and Jankowski was an off the board pick who will take yrs to develop and his stats so far are looking just okay at this point.

[ComixZone]

I can't fault this team's effort level. I think everyone (outside of Kiprusoff) is playing up to the level they are capable of.

This team doesn't have centers, and needs to address it.

Not playoff team this year, hopefully get a top 5 pick and land Mackinnon or Barkov.

[BEANZ]

I can't fault this team's effort level. I think everyone (outside of Kiprusoff) is playing up to the level they are capable of.

This team doesn't have centers, and needs to address it.

Not playoff team this year, hopefully get a top 5 pick and land Mackinnon or Barkov.

Did you watch the last two games? The Flames looked terrible in both and had little to no push. The team lacks top end talent and does not compete hard enough to make up for it.

[EddyBeers]

We still don't know if the results of the draft will turn out better sadly either. Bart has already had a few injuries in his young career, Johnny Hockey is still a crap shoot to make the NHL with his size and Jankowski was an off the board pick who will take yrs to develop and his stats so far are looking just okay at this point.

Of course you do not know for sure, but the following playoff teams from last year had a top 5 pick in the last 10 years:

1) Boston
2) Florida
3) Pittsburgh
4) Philadelphia
5) New Jersey
6) Washington
7) St. Louis
8) Phoenix
9) Chicago
10) Los Angeles

Honorable mention to the Vancouver Canucks who got their two best players with top five picks outside of that arbitrary ten year period.

It seems the vast vast majority of teams go through a period where they are basement dwellers before they can become elite again. Pretty hard to rebuild as a mediocre team drafting 13th every year.

[Flash Walken]

It's Chicago's best start in History...

Yup, not using it as an excuse and yes, the Flames just aren't that good. I just think comparing this season to a regular start just isn't a balanced comparison.

While there are always anomalous starts and unsustainable selections of play, the meat is that with a game in hand, Calgary is 7 points back of the division leader and with 2 games in hand, are 4 points back of Minnesota, Dallas, Edmonton and st. louis. So there are 4 teams ahead of the Flames that can be caught with games in hand. Is it likely they will catch all 4? No. Will they catch 2, maybe in 3? With my luck as a fan, probably.

The team that just beat Calgary, Minnesota, has 7 new players in their lineup this year, which included blowing it all up last year prior to the deadline to get 2 'franchise players' that they now build around.

Even then though, that still only puts them on the cusp of the playoffs. Playoff perennials and contenders are way up there, even after going through some unpleasantness of their own (San Jose winless in their last 5, Detroit decimated by injuries, Vancouver playing without a second line).

Now, if you compare their start to their own sample size of the previous 3 years...it's not favourable.

[Flash Walken]

Of course you do not know for sure, but the following playoff teams from last year had a top 5 pick in the last 10 years:

1) Boston
2) Florida
3) Pittsburgh
4) Philadelphia
5) New Jersey
6) Washington
7) St. Louis
8) Phoenix
9) Chicago
10) Los Angeles

Honorable mention to the Vancouver Canucks who got their two best players with top five picks.

It seems the vast vast majority of teams go through a period where they are basement dwellers before they can become elite again. Pretty hard to rebuild as a mediocre team drafting 13th every year and trading down in the first to recoup a second rounder used to supplement the roster.

Just a little addendum at the end there.

[Henry Fool]

To me it's obvious that they should have drawn the line at last season. How many "one more tries" do you need to give before you face reality?

But then if you're not trading away Kipper and Iggy, it wouldn't hurt to have Jokinen right about now. Not the smarterst guy with the puck, granted, but him and Glencross provided a lot of push. And, you know, an actual center. I always felt weird about that. Like change for the sake of change that doesn't make the lineup better.

[neo45]

I know I have only pulled 2 sets here, but I present you the Pre-Season/Week 1 NHL Power Rankings for the Sutter Era Calgary Flames:

2009-2010
TSN: 17
CBC: 3

2010-2011
TSN: 22
CBC: Top 10

2011-2012
TSN: 21
CBC: 17

TSN never seemed very optimistic about the Sutter coached Flames.


Aren't power rankings done differently?

[BigFlameDog]

No one called it a mystery, just some oddness is all.
ok...not much oddness to it. No oddness at all actually.

[Psytic]

To me it's obvious that they should have drawn the line at last season. How many "one more tries" do you need to give before you face reality?

But then if you're not trading away Kipper and Iggy, it wouldn't hurt to have Jokinen right about now. Not the smarterst guy with the puck, granted, but him and Glencross provided a lot of push. And, you know, an actual center. I always felt weird about that. Like change for the sake of change that doesn't make the lineup better.

Oli Jokinen 31st in goals in the shootout among active skaters (46%)...... Damn could of had him in there instead of Jones.

[zukes]

If you're 4 points out of the playoffs after game 10 (in an 82 game schedule), you have a 7% chance of making the playoffs.

Okay, 14th place with 9 points, however here is how many games teams 13-8 (all within 4 points) have played: 13, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12.

All of those teams are passed or tied with 2 wins in those games in hand.

Now they have to win those games, but for argument sake, let's pretend they somehow had those tow games done already and had won them.

They would currently sit in 8th, one point back from Phoenix (with a game in hand still) and Nashville. I wonder how different this board would be reacting? We, as a collective, are jumping the gun here.

[Henry Fool]

Oli Jokinen 31st in goals in the shootout among active skaters (46%)...... Damn could of had him in there instead of Jones.

That percentage can't be correct, but he's been pretty good at shootouts. Wasn't the one year when the Flames did well in shootouts that same that Jokinen perfected his trademark backhand move? Either way, he was pretty efficient that season.

[COGENT]

ok...not much oddness to it. No oddness at all actually.

The season started in January

[SuperMatt18]

Did you watch the last two games? The Flames looked terrible in both and had little to no push. The team lacks top end talent and does not compete hard enough to make up for it.

Against Vancouver they didn't try but I thought they tried against Minnesota, they likely played their most physical game of the year against the Wild.

The floaters for that game were Iggy, and Tanguay.

[The Voice of Reason]

Aren't power rankings done differently?

I suppose you could make the argument that a week 1 or pre-season power ranking and a predictions of where a team will finish at the end of the year could be different. I don't really have the time to search out if that would be true or not. I certainly wouldn't have hurt feelings if someone showed that to be the case.

I just was curious to know how two Canadian media companies who have a lot of staff dedicated to the NHL ranked the Flames at the start of each of those seasons.

[Psytic]

That percentage can't be correct, but he's been pretty good at shootouts. Wasn't the one year when the Flames did well in shootouts that same that Jokinen perfected his trademark backhand move? Either way, he was pretty efficient that season.

Yea I read his road shootout percentage not his overall by accident which is 36%. He is still 31st overall though.

Still Oli, Hudler and Tanguay would be a great shootout lineup.

[Itse]

I think everybody except those who choose to be optimistic out of principle know that we don't have a good team.

As to intellectual honesty, making definitive statements about a coach 8 games into his first season is the opposite of that.

The only thing clear about Hartley at this point is that has a different style than any of the other post-Darryl coaches. (And obviously he's nothing like Darryl either.)

[MisterJoji]

If you're 4 points out of the playoffs after game 10 (in an 82 game schedule), you have a 7% chance of making the playoffs.

2011/12 Bruins
2011/12 Blues
2010/11 Sabres
2010/11 Coyotes
2010/11 Ducks

So 5 teams out of the 32 to make the playoffs the last 2 years. Not great odds but better than 7%, 16% to be exact.

[calgARI]

Of course you do not know for sure, but the following playoff teams from last year had a top 5 pick in the last 10 years:

1) Boston
2) Florida
3) Pittsburgh
4) Philadelphia
5) New Jersey
6) Washington
7) St. Louis
8) Phoenix
9) Chicago
10) Los Angeles

Honorable mention to the Vancouver Canucks who got their two best players with top five picks outside of that arbitrary ten year period.

It seems the vast vast majority of teams go through a period where they are basement dwellers before they can become elite again. Pretty hard to rebuild as a mediocre team drafting 13th every year.

Kind of misleading for many of those teams. Several of them had no or nominal impact players who were top five picks in the last ten years (NJ, Philadelphia) and Boston got their impact top five pick from Toronto. Other teams in there got their core players through non top five picks or through trades.

[dino7c]

Oli Jokinen 31st in goals in the shootout among active skaters (46%)...... Damn could of had him in there instead of Jones.

Jones was 50% before last night

[Britflamesfan]

I cannot understand a GM with the stated intent (guarantee!) of making the playoffs going into the season with no 1st line center and one could argue at the start of the season no 2nd line center. Really he should be fired for this alone! This team is now at least 2 years behind where it should be if Feaster had applied Intellectual Honesty when he first stated it.

[Vinny01]

We still don't know if the results of the draft will turn out better sadly either. Bart has already had a few injuries in his young career, Johnny Hockey is still a crap shoot to make the NHL with his size and Jankowski was an off the board pick who will take yrs to develop and his stats so far are looking just okay at this point.


Good points we don't know which is why trading all our assets for picks like HF/TSN etc thinks we should do is no gurarante of success.

The only think holding Sven back is likely injuries
The only thing holding Gaudreau back is size
Janko is a long term project with all the tools to be a star but this won't happen for 3-5 years.

Brossiot, Wortherspoon, Granlund from the 2011 class all have taken a nice step forward.

Brodie and Backlund from the previous regime are starting to really look like players (especially Brodie who was a 4t rounder).

I would like the Flames to avoid moving Iggy for a pick at this stage since he will likely be moving to a team that will draft 20-30th. I am targeting teams that have a top prospect that are willing to move. Laughton does not qualify. I still really want Krieder from the Rangers, he is abig body with a ton of speed and former teammate of Johnny Hockey. I think the Rangers would consider moving him for Iggy if they knew they could get 1-2 more years from Jarome after the trade.

[Flash Walken]

I think everybody except those who choose to be optimistic out of principle know that we don't have a good team.

As to intellectual honesty, making definitive statements about a coach 8 games into his first season is the opposite of that.

The only thing clear about Hartley at this point is that has a different style than any of the other post-Darryl coaches. (And obviously he's nothing like Darryl either.)
So far, same style as Keenan.

Remember when the flames had a practice with balloons and folding chairs?

Stretch the opposition defense and making them pay for forechecking with quick-strike off-the-rush offense.

Fire drill in your own end.

Get the puck to Iginla on the half wall for one-timers on the PP.

[dino7c]

I cannot understand a GM with the stated intent (guarantee!) of making the playoffs going into the season with no 1st line center and one could argue at the start of the season no 2nd line center. Really he should be fired for this alone! This team is now at least 2 years behind where it should be if Feaster had applied Intellectual Honesty when he first stated it.

The players Feaster brought in have been the teams best players...hard to blame him when ownership won't let him trade the big two

[Britflamesfan]

The players Feaster brought in have been the teams best players...hard to blame him when ownership won't let him trade the big two

No doubt but he still left critical positions unfilled.

[dino7c]

No doubt but he still left critical positions unfilled.

where on earth are you going to get a #1 center from? They don't grow on trees

[Henry Fool]

where on earth are you going to get a #1 center from? They don't grow on trees

Number one center? They don't have ANY centers.

[Britflamesfan]

where on earth are you going to get a #1 center from? They don't grow on trees

We had one not a great one but he was a No 1 center and he could have been re-signed, rather than be allowed to walk for nothing.

[Henry Fool]

jones was 50% before last night

1/2

[Vinny01]

where on earth are you going to get a #1 center from? They don't grow on trees


Feaster took his best shot at Richards and he gets roasted by many for that move. It was a calculated risk as there was a close relationship between Feaster and Richards, Edwards bank account was wide open, they had an impressive pitch, the team came off a nice 2nd half run falling just short of the playoffs. At the end of the day it worked out for both parties. Richards went where he wanted to go and the Flames dodged a bullet of having a 10 year $70M contract on the books for a player who was 31 at the time.

That was a risk probably worth taking from Feaster's perspective and it was an exciting day on CP but it certainly was a long shot but those #1 C don't come along often.

[Karl Racki]

where on earth are you going to get a #1 center from? They don't grow on trees

Correct. So what teams often have to do is practice some intellectual honesty at the right time and trade REALLY good but aging assets (while they are still REALLY good) and obtain either very high draft picks or recently drafted highly skilled, future stars in return. Not sure we have that option anymore for what its worth.

[Henry Fool]

The number one center discussion is one thing, but you can't possibly argue that Feaster didn't leave the center position unfilled. It was plain as day for everyone that looked at the lineup. As we see now they are one Backlund injury away from Stajan being their best center. Even with Jokinen they had bad centers.

Again, if you're going to rebuild, fine, let the veterans move on. But if you're not going to rebuild, wtf kind of purpose does this addition by substraction logic serve? I'll tell you: it serves a cosmetic purpose. You let go Jokinen because you can and you're too scared to make any of the tougher decisions.

[Street Pharmacist]

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=655362

A good read for flames fans

[Psytic]

Jones was 50% before last night

Jones 3 attempts to Oli's 50 so thats a bit skewed by sample size. Thats why I used total shootout goals for the rankings.

[Vinny01]

You let Jokinen go because you don't want to pay a 34 year old $4.5M per. Feaster targeted Hudler with that money and I think it was the smarter purchase. I guess he could have kept Olli for the sake of Stempniak and Sarich. I just think organizationally they wanted to walk away from Olli

[Flash Walken]

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=655362

A good read for flames fans

can't thank, needs more attention.

[dino7c]

Jones 3 attempts to Oli's 50 so thats a bit skewed by sample size. Thats why I used total shootout goals for the rankings.

fair enough but its not like Ollie had been good lately

[Komskies]

Okay, 14th place with 9 points, however here is how many games teams 13-8 (all within 4 points) have played: 13, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12.

All of those teams are passed or tied with 2 wins in those games in hand.

Now they have to win those games, but for argument sake, let's pretend they somehow had those tow games done already and had won them.

They would currently sit in 8th, one point back from Phoenix (with a game in hand still) and Nashville. I wonder how different this board would be reacting? We, as a collective, are jumping the gun here.

I would much rather have wins in hand than games in hand, you know, like every single team above us.

[dino7c]

Correct. So what teams often have to do is practice some intellectual honesty at the right time and trade REALLY good but aging assets (while they are still REALLY good) and obtain either very high draft picks or recently drafted highly skilled, future stars in return. Not sure we have that option anymore for what its worth.

agree but Feaster wasn't/isn't allowed to trade the big two so its pretty hard to blame him. He has done well considering the circumstances. I would rather have Cervenka and Hudler over Ollie anyway

[dino7c]

I would much rather have wins in hand than games in hand, you know, like every single team above us.

Exactly, Flames have 3 wins in 10 games and we are counting games in hand as wins?

[North East Goon]

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=655362

A good read for flames fans

Makes a lot of sense - good read. Also points to if you are going to blow it up, do it all at once.

[BigFlameDog]

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

The season started in January

Dude...that's not what you were talking about, you were saying it was odd (mass oddness??) that a team like San Jose is so good....I am saying there is no oddness to that...it's quite understandable since they have a long serving coach and barely any turnover to their roster, which has a lot of good players on it.

The season starting in January is odd, agreed, but that isn't what you were inferring.

[Psytic]

You let Jokinen go because you don't want to pay a 34 year old $4.5M per. Feaster targeted Hudler with that money and I think it was the smarter purchase. I guess he could have kept Olli for the sake of Stempniak and Sarich. I just think organizationally they wanted to walk away from Olli

I'll take Oli over Comeau and Jackman being re-signed if the money was the issue.

[Enoch Root]

good article.

but I think Lombardi forgot a couple things:

Carter for Johnson + 1st (in 12 or 13)

Richards for Simmonds, Schenn + 2nd (in 12)

I fully agree, however, that the BACKBONE of building a team is through the draft and development.

The Flames have been horrible at this for the past 20 years. Improvement has come, but even if it is real improvement, it will be years before the good fully pushes out the bad.

By the way, Lombardi isn't talking about a rebuild, he is talking about an ongoing commitment to it in order to maintain a solid franchise. And I 100% agree with him.

[Psytic]

fair enough but its not like Ollie had been good lately

Neither has Iginla for 2.5 mill more. I don't think re-signing him for another year for insurance would of been a bad idea.

[COGENT]

Dude...that's not what you were talking about, you were saying it was odd (mass oddness??) that a team like San Jose is so good....I am saying there is no oddness to that...it's quite understandable since they have a long serving coach and barely any turnover to their roster, which has a lot of good players on it.

The season starting in January is odd, agreed, but that isn't what you were inferring.

What I said originally and what I'm still talking about is that comparing the beginning of this season to last 3 seasons beginnings doesn't seem like a fair comparison. I believe the late start has created some odd outcomes, which more or less stems from a percentage of the players playing for the last 3 months elsewhere and others not. It's truly an argument with no end. We're all just throwing out opinions where facts aren't available. I believe the late start has created some odd conclusions... you believe otherwise.

Regardless, the Flames are losing and it sucks.

[Dr. Pepper]

It helps me to keep thinking of what Flames ownership/management have said and hinted at over the years with respect to their overall philosophy in building the team. You may disagree with it, but it is what it is.

#1 is being in contention every year. They will never ever gut the team or willingly tank a season - being in contention to them means butts in seats.
#2 is having players people know and cheer for. Iggy is untouchable. He'd have to demand a trade in order for it to happen.

They are going for the Red Wings model. Good scouting, and fill in the blanks trades when required. Problem is, both scouting and trading have been suspect for 10+ years (with a few exceptions sure). But that's what they are going for.

If anyone here is expecting things to happen outside of that philosophy, they'll be waiting a long time. Rant if you want, but it's the truth. Or at least the truth as far as I can tell.

[Calgary4LIfe]

good article.

but I think Lombardi forgot a couple things:

Carter for Johnson + 1st (in 12 or 13)

Richards for Simmonds, Schenn + 2nd (in 12)

I fully agree, however, that the BACKBONE of building a team is through the draft and development.

The Flames have been horrible at this for the past 20 years. Improvement has come, but even if it is real improvement, it will be years before the good fully pushes out the bad.

By the way, Lombardi isn't talking about a rebuild, he is talking about an ongoing commitment to it in order to maintain a solid franchise. And I 100% agree with him.

I believe this to be exactly what Calgary is doing now.

People are upset about the bad start, and not 'blowing it up'. Fans want a rebuild. The 'rebuild' started a few years ago under Darryl - he laid the foundation for the drafting and development program. Without this foundation, we would eventually become the Oilers - one year would have been 'horrible', with a few more bad years to come whereby we don't draft much beyond the '1st overall'.

So the Flames started their rebuild with the scouts and their development program - wise place to start! A lot of teams that are 'lost in the desert' for years are teams with small hockey ops departments, and affiliations with AHL teams that really don't do a whole lot to develop a player. They just want to win.

Scouting - even under Darryl, things went from 'absolutely horrible' to 'below average' I thought. The last few drafts started getting better, with his last one a pretty decent draft. I am starting to see this as one of the few (if only) organizational strengths now. Not a strength in the quality and quantity of prospects, but a strength in how much better they have been drafting and developing (and Calgary is increasingly ranked higher - though still NOT even in the top 2/3rds of the league).

As for 'winning now' - this philosophy has dramatically changed. Flames would in the past borrow from the future to pay for the now. All 'contenders' do this. I can't think of one Stanley Cup winner since the lockout that hasn't - to varying degrees. They trade prospects/picks for players to push them over the hump. It was doubly hard for Calgary in trying to remain a contender - their development program sucked, and so did their drafting. They simply were not drafting enough good players.

Now the 'bleeding' has stopped. Flames no longer trade away picks to win 'now' - and if they do, they are usually as part of a package in getting young-ish players in return in packages. No longer do you see the Flames pull out all the stops in trying to get themselves into the playoffs.

Flames are relying on drafting, development + good free agent signings/occasional trades. The average age of the Flames have dropped substantially. Our most effective players for the most part are under 30, though our 'most talented' players are over that. Iginla, Tanguay and Kipper are the only players that could be called 'core' that are over 30. Look back 2 years ago, and you would see more.

So, Flames have 'stopped the bleeding'. They don't trade youth for vets, and they are seemingly drafting and developing much better (and for those that argue that we are not, look back at our drafting and outside of an occasional pick that 'wowed' us, the Flames haven't been drafting this CONSISTENTLY WELL since the 80's). Just look at how many scouts and development personnel they have. The Flames invest a LOT more money into this area, and it is just a matter of time before it really starts showing results.

"The Iginla Situation" - I don't really see why everyone is getting so 'angry' for at the moment when it comes to him. Don't worry "Blow it up" crowd - you may get your wish yet. Iginla not signing a contract yet is very telling. I don't think it was just Iginla, or just the Flames. I think they had a discussion in the off-season, and figured this may be the best way to proceed this season. "Don't sign a contract yet, see how the Flames are doing in the standings. If they are legitimately a playoff team (not a bubble team), then sign a contract then. If not, give us your 2, 3, 4 or whatever teams you would like to go to, and we will trade you to the one that makes the best sense to us. If you don't re-sign with the team you were traded to, we will always take you back here on the Flames as a free agent."

Question is, who else goes if the Flames continue their current path?

This team is NOT as bad as people make it out to be. There is a lot of talent here. There just isn't enough 'impact' players left. I do think Gaudreau and Jankowski have a very solid chance of becoming impact players, but they are probably still at least 2 years out from either even joining the team (Jankowski) or being an impact forward on the Flames. There is a LOT of supporting players coming up too. Baertschi, Backlund and Brodie look like a very solid trio coming in. Things are not 'horrible'.

Now look at the standings year-to-year. Most contenders and winners didn't spend years at the bottom since the lockout. Boston and LA are both teams that FINISHED bottom 5 in the league. Don't argue the stupid Toronto trade as part of building a contender - a rookie Seguin vs a more prime Kessel hurt more than helped - but their future is much more bright with either Seguin or Hamilton, nevermind both of them in exchange for Kessel. Just that playoff run, Boston would have been an even 'stronger' team had they not made that trade. Philly picked JVR 1st or 2nd one year as well.

It seems that both our pro and minor scouts are doing a much better job now. I used to love Darryl because he could find that 'diamond in the rough' and turn that player into an impact player - Bourque, Husselius come to mind. All of the Flames' off-season NEW acquisitions seem to be great - Wideman, Hudler and Cervenka. Begin is 'so-so' for me - adequate and cheap enough. Comeau was just a good PK'er and brought some much needed grit that is VERY lacking on this team. Overall, I think the talent level on the Flames this season is BETTER than last season - and once again (besides Begin) there was no 'old vets' brought in.

I hope that if the Flames do not get into the playoffs, they finish bottom 3 (scared of the draft lottery - I think the top 4 picks this year will be closer to franchise types, and then there is a slight drop-off). One year is all it really takes. There is enough 'support' coming down the pipe (Reinhart, Horak, Arnold, Ramage, Breen, Seiloff, Wotherspoon) that there should be at least some decent 3/4 line 4/5/6 defencemen in that bunch to fill holes in the roster. Jankowski, Gaudreau, MAYBE Granlund could be 'go-to' guys in the future to compliment Baertschi, Hudler and Cervenka, plus this year's 1st(s) and whatever prospects come from any trades.

I think this is as bad as it is going to get. Last few games the Flames have remained competitive with a rookie goalie who is NOT ready to be a #1 and a top line that has not been a factor and has been outplayed by the 2nd line (and would have been by the 3rd line had Backlund not been hurt in almost certainty, as it was regularly when Backlund was in the lineup). The wheels didn't all completely fall off, and the effort wasn't even all there! Not saying this is a 'good thing', but in my opinion, this was the 'worst case scenario' and the Flames are staying alive.

I just take solace in the fact that no matter what happens, the Flames are committed to their drafting and development program. As long as they stay the course, this team will eventually start going up again - even if they never trade Iginla and company. NO TEAM succeeds any longer without one. Very few (If any at all!!) are constant failures when they decide to invest in those areas, regardless of what they do with their current 'vets'.

[Derek Sutton]

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=655362

A good read for flames fans

Basically you need one home run per draft and one good trade per year. Prior to 2003 the Kings drafts were awful, and since have been good, mostly based on where they've picked and some loaded talent pools. The biggest thing for the Kings to me is some of the trades they've pulled off over the years which are just as important.

Pittsburgh "They won a lottery and got the best player in the game." LA, Chicago, Philly all bulit through the draft, and made good trades to compliment the players they developed. But for every success in drafting there is Columbus, Florida, NYI, who have all squandered top picks and have a history of maaking poor trades.

Boston and San Jose have traded for most of their key components and the drafts have complimented their trades for the most part.

In the case of the Flames, you have a poor record with draft picks, and a poor history of getting a good return for your assets. Will not be successful this way. The Flames are 3 top 5 draft picks , two good sigings/ trades and about 5 years away. Or 15 players away via trade/ free agency if you don't "blow it up."

[Ark2]

They are going for the Red Wings model. Good scouting, and fill in the blanks trades when required. Problem is, both scouting and trading have been suspect for 10+ years (with a few exceptions sure). But that's what they are going for.


When was the last time that the Red Wings drafter a player that turned out to be any good? If you want to follow the Red Wings model, first step is drafting one of the best defensemen of all time. The second step is hoping that he never retires. Outside of step one, we aren't much different from the Red Wings, to be honest.

[Itse]

So far, same style as Keenan.

Hmm.

Okay, the offensive game has some similarities, but I don't think that's enough to make Hartley similar to Keenan. Hartley preaches a much more structured game than Keenan did, especially in the defensive zone. He also has a much more positive way to approach the team (based on his interviews etc).

I'm sure there are other differences too.

[Sakari]

Boston was the worst team in the NHL for the first month of last season.

They finished 2nd in the East.

Anything can happen, even in a short season. These first 10 games do not dictate how we play for the rest of the season. Still got 38 games to go. That's lots of games you know. Lots.

[Flash Walken]

When was the last time that the Red Wings drafter a player that turned out to be any good?

2002, Filppula?
2004, Franzen
2005, Helm and Abdelkader?

Brendan Smith? Tomas Tatar?

Those are good players.

[Fire Park '71]

Boston was the worst team in the NHL for the first month of last season.

They finished 2nd in the East.

Anything can happen, even in a short season. These first 10 games do not dictate how we play for the rest of the season. Still got 38 games to go. That's lots of games you know. Lots.

Careful, now. Boston was and is an elite team.

[Derek Sutton]

When was the last time that the Red Wings drafter a player that turned out to be any good? If you want to follow the Red Wings model, first step is drafting one of the best defensemen of all time. The second step is hoping that he never retires. Outside of step one, we aren't much different from the Red Wings, to be honest.

Well name 3 superstars the Flames have drafted.

The Wings historicly have done a good jod of developing from within, not rushing players to the NHL then giving up on them or labeling busts one their ELC has expired. One big differnce though is that the Wings do not spend close to what the Flames do on goal tending and never have. It appears as though to them elite goaltending is over rated and they may be right abourt that.

[zunie75]

Every other team is faced with this same situation

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with OP, but there are a lot of talented teams that are looking terrible this year and are not any where near where they would be predicted to be in the standings.

Perhaps this year is an anomaly or just a by product of whose players got more action during the lock out.

[EddyBeers]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with OP, but there are a lot of talented teams that are looking terrible this year and are not any where near where they would be predicted to be in the standings.

Perhaps this year is an anomaly or just a by product of whose players got more action during the lock out.

The Flames are not one of those teams though, they are currently exactly where virtually every hockey observer thought they would be this season.