Standings Death for Seth?

[89revival]

This team is going nowhere fast, tank for Seth I say, when's the last time we picked in the top 5? I want Seth.....Iggy and Mikkaa go at some point this year too....the inevitable rebuild must happen, stop kidding yourselves flame fans, this group isn't gonna do it.....and no this isn't just a thread in response to the slow start, this has been coming for 4-5 years now......

[Muta]

No self-respecting team should ever try to fail.

That said, we may see such results even if we try.

[Captain_Obvious]

If we were to draft first, it's Mackinnon all the way.

This franchise has been plagued by the lack of a true number one centre for over a generation.

That would be a no-brainer for management imo.

[Textcritic]

...the inevitable rebuild must happen, stop kidding yourselves flame fans, this group isn't gonna do it...
Why must it either be one or the other?

The thing I don't get in this constant argument is the notion that the Flames only have two choices: either to embark on a scorched earth rebuild, or to continue to attempt to ice competitive teams via free agency and trades each year in hopes of making the playoffs at the expense of the longer term future. I just don't see either currently at work in the Flames organisation. Rather, it seems to me that management is taking a more patient approach: gradual turnover in the roster and restocking through the draft, supplemented by the free agent market. This is my interpretation of the last couple of drafts and also the way in which Feaster has constructed the current roster.

I don't think there are many serious Flames fans who actually believe that the current group is now or at any point in the next couple of seasons a legitimate contender in the League. However, I also think that this is not otherwise some egregious oversight on the part of management that urgently must be corrected. Could another alternative simply be that the next couple of seasons are transition periods through which the team is rebuilt more gradually?

[devo22]

Losing on purpose is never acceptable. We're not Edmonton.

I know the Flames well enough to predict what is going to happen. This team will dwell in the bottom of the standings in the first couple weeks, then go on a hot streak right in time for the trade deadline, so Feaster won't dismantle the team in hope for a playoff berth, yet they'll fall short and finish 9th or 10th in the West. Fool me thrice? ...

[Muta]

If we had a top three pick, we shouldnt be surprised if we end up trading that down to a 7th or 8th and then getting a 2nd rounder out of the deal. Only three times in the last decade have we picked the BPA.... Phaneuf, Backlund and Baertschi. Go figure, they're all playing in the NHL now.

[Jets4Life]

No self-respecting team should ever try to fail.



The Penguins tanked in 1983-84, in order to draft Mario Lemieux. It apparently worked out pretty well for them...

[bubbsy]

with the promising young players the franchise has been scooping up the last 2 drafts, i would love to see what they could do if they were to have multiple first/second rounders. Last year the lightening had 3 first rounders, this year columbus does i think, even the contending pens had 2 first rounds last year.

I am really really hoping the flames management team have a strategy in their back pockets titled "What we'll do if the team is in 10th or worse by Apr 1st" and it involves getting multiple first rounders in the upcoming draft.

[Inglewood Jack]

The Penguins tanked in 1983-84, in order to draft Mario Lemieux. It apparently worked out pretty well for them...

Good thing there's been so many Lemieux-calibre #1 draft picks since then hey. Even though scouting is so much better these days and there's not so many Daigles, you'll be waiting an awful long time if you intend to tank for a generation-defining legend to turn your franchise around.

[Alberta_Beef]

The Penguins tanked in 1983-84, in order to draft Mario Lemieux. It apparently worked out pretty well for them...What does it working out well have to do with self respect?

[gargamel]

No to the idea and no to the rhyme.

[FlamesAddiction]

No self-respecting team should ever try to fail.

That said, we may see such results even if we try.

No coaches or players ever go out on the ice and try to fail, but the GMs of many self-respecting teams have abandoned short term success for long term success by trading away talent for future assets. They know full well the short term results are going to be bad on the ice.

A lot of teams "audition" their youth after it looks like they are out of it, and again, they know it means they are going to lose more games. The idea is that it will help in the long run.

Having said that, people are way overreacting to the first 5 games. I think this team is better than the results are showing. It is not time to throw in the towel yet. The new coach has only had 5 games to undo previous mistakes and it is only the 2nd game back for 2 of our top 6 players. I'm not sure they will be successful this season, but have a little patience.

[Poe969]

The way this team has been mismanaged in the past, I think if we got the #1 overall pick, we'd trade it for a late first, a second and an older vet that might push us into that ever so comfortable 9th spot.

I think I'd pick McKinnon first overall but I wouldn't be sad with Seth. I would just hope that we get rid of some of the older players we have and go in a new direction.

[Resolute 14]

Any fan who wants to lose is no fan at all.

[Roof-Daddy]

I can't bring myself to cheer for Flames losses. Cannot do it.

However, every time they do lose I'll take solace in the fact that it a talent rich draft, and a short season.

[CliffFletcher]

Why must it either be one or the other?

The thing I don't get in this constant argument is the notion that the Flames only have two choices: either to embark on a scorched earth rebuild, or to continue to attempt to ice competitive teams via free agency and trades each year in hopes of making the playoffs at the expense of the longer term future. I just don't see either currently at work in the Flames organisation. Rather, it seems to me that management is taking a more patient approach: gradual turnover in the roster and restocking through the draft, supplemented by the free agent market. This is my interpretation of the last couple of drafts and also the way in which Feaster has constructed the current roster.

I don't think there are many serious Flames fans who actually believe that the current group is now or at any point in the next couple of seasons a legitimate contender in the League. However, I also think that this is not otherwise some egregious oversight on the part of management that urgently must be corrected. Could another alternative simply be that the next couple of seasons are transition periods through which the team is rebuilt more gradually?

Restocking the team gradually through the normal allotment of draft picks and access to free agents isn't a strategy - it's what most teams in the NHL to every season. At best, it's an approach that will return the Flames to mediocrity in a few season. It's not an approach that gives us a high likelihood of developing an elite core and contesting the top of the conference for several season.

Le'ts compare two teams: the Stars and the Blues.

The Stars hung onto their aging core of Modano, Turco, Lehtinen, and Zubov until they had pretty much no value. Then they had declined into being a bad team, drafted and developed some pretty good players, and now they look they'll be... mediocre.

When the Blues saw thing weren't working out, they moved Guerin, Weight, Tkachuk out for young players and picks. Yes, they drafted very well to get themselves much of their core, but they parlayed those vets into McDonald, Perron, Cole, and Halak (via Eller). They supercharged their acquisition of young talent.

The Flame need to do that. They have, at best, an average prospect base. More importantly, they have maybe the worst collection of 21-27-year-old talent in the NHL. Even if our prospects turn out as well as we hope, and management continue to draft well, the top of the cycle still looks like mediocrity. And free agency is a way to supplement a good team (or patch a bad one), not build a champion. We need more prospects, and more and higher picks.

[CliffFletcher]

Any fan who wants to lose is no fan at all.

Any fan who can't see past the current season and hope for what's best for the team in the long-term of 3-7 seasons is short-sighted and delusional.

[JiriHrdina]

Any fan who wants to lose is no fan at all.

When I'm watching the games I'm hoping for them to win, but there is a silver lining to a bad season. This team needs a succession plan - a new wave of core players to build around. Sven is one. They need more. I think there are 3 guys at the top of the draft that are franchise changers, and then 3 or 4 more that would be guys that are just a step below.

Grabbing one of those could potentially accelerate a turnaround.

[Jets4Life]

Good thing there's been so many Lemieux-calibre #1 draft picks since then hey. Even though scouting is so much better these days and there's not so many Daigles, you'll be waiting an awful long time if you intend to tank for a generation-defining legend to turn your franchise around.

You can say that again. I recall there were many rumors Ottawa deliberately tanked the last few games of the season, in order to draft Daigue. The funny thing is, once Daigle was drafted for Ottawa, some reporters asked for his thoughts.

Daigle replied: "I'm glad I got drafted first, because no one remembers number two."

The #2 pick? Chris Pronger.

[DuffMan]

Speaking of the standings, I got a good laugh this morning when I saw our next opponent has 10 more points than us, 5 games into the season, ha ha.

[Resolute 14]

When I'm watching the games I'm hoping for them to win, but there is a silver lining to a bad season. This team needs a succession plan - a new wave of core players to build around. Sven is one. They need more. I think there are 3 guys at the top of the draft that are franchise changers, and then 3 or 4 more that would be guys that are just a step below.

Grabbing one of those could potentially accelerate a turnaround.

I don't disagree. However, there is a difference between accepting what happens - including losing and the consequences (trades) that often go with it - and wanting it.

"Standings death for Seth"? I'm sorry, that is just the talk of a loser.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't disagree. However, there is a difference between accepting what happens - including losing and the consequences (trades) that often go with it - and wanting it.

"Standings death for Seth"? I'm sorry, that is just the talk of a loser.


edit: nm

I think what you are saying is what the OP is getting at. I doubt that he "wants" the team to lose.

[Resolute 14]

edit: nm

I think what you are saying is what the OP is getting at. I doubt that he "wants" the team to lose.

Anyone who wants to quit after five games wants to lose.

Anyone who wants to finish last in the league is a loser.

[HPLovecraft]

Anyone who wants to quit after five games wants to lose.

Anyone who wants to finish last in the league is a loser.

None of us are playing the games. We can wish for all sorts of things, it doesn't make any of us "losers." Maybe if we were actually NHLers and strove to suck just so we could lose, then, yeah.

[nik-]

As I said in the other thread, if we somehow ended up with the first overall pick and we didn't take the potential elite center, I legitimately think that it would kill any faith I have left in this team. Considering it's been 17 years since we had a number 1 center, I don't think I could handle it if they picked the D Man.

I do really worry about their choice with a high draft pick because of the Jankowski pick. I'm worried they'll think they're a little too clever.

[kyuss275]

Way to early for this thread title. The flames have enough talent on this team from keeping them away from a top 1-2 pick. Kipper will get hot , Iggy will start to score, and the free agent pick ups look good. The only way they get a top 1-2 pick is if they start a fire sale at game 10. Thats not going to happen.

This is going to be a lot like the last 2 seasons, they start of bad, get good, probably fall short. Feaster and ownership will be in denial and think the bad start was becasue of a new coach and system and not trade the vets.

I would not be shocked if the flames made a big trade to try and help them get to 8th spot, rather than letting them miss the playoffs. I highly doubt they would trade 1st's or Sven, but would not be shocked to see them trade a Gaudreau or Brodie. Before you guys go off on me about trading them, I do not want to see them traded at all just my gut feeling. Ownerhsip and management seem like they would go to great lengths to make the playoffs and to try and convince Iggy to stay.


On a side note, am i the only one that would rather have Barkov rather than Seth Jones? Don't get me wrong Jones is going to be great, but i think Barkov will be just as great and plays center. Maybe all the years of not having a center man has clouded my judgement.

[The Fonz]

I'd rather they got MacKinnon than Jones.

I'm so tired of hearing about "the search for a #1 C".

[Rhettzky]

What are the rules for the draft lottery this year? Is it the same odds as before only this time you can move up from 14th to 1st? Or are the odds different altogether?

[Resolute 14]

What are the rules for the draft lottery this year? Is it the same odds as before only this time you can move up from 14th to 1st? Or are the odds different altogether?

The odds of winning the lottery are the same, I believe. But the odds of getting the top pick have changed dramatically for some positions. Finishing last used to get you a 48.6% chance of picking first overall. Now it is only 25%.

[CliffFletcher]

I'd take MacKinnon, Barkov, and Drouin before Jones. Defencemen are so much harder to project at this age. People thought Eric Johnson and Jack Johnson were can't miss stud defencemen too.

[Table 5]

Does anyone know yet if they hold a lottery for all the subsequent 13 picks, or just the first 1? Ie, does the 14th place team have a chance at the 4th pick too?

[magicpixels]

Our management is too blind to be willing to do it. They think we have enough magic pixie dust to be able to chase 8th spot.

People are too attached to players and that's the problem. I love Iginla and Kipper. But I love the Flames, not just the players. I've been telling people this since december.

Trade Iginla.
Trade Kipper.

Get back two reasonable prospects. I think getting Schenn for Iginla is totally doable which would be one good starting block. Picking up a young D-man for Kipper.

The team will most certainly tank to a bottom 3 team and will pick in the top 3. Who cares if we tank in a 48 game season.

The highest we've ever picked in 6th. I would argue that trading Kipper and Iginla for two decent prospects would put us in a position immediately next year to push for the playoffs.

We'll have a good goalie coming in with Ramo.

The big problem is. Calgary fans tends to be blind and delusional. Ya know we need to keep Iggy and Kipper cuz their flames.

Remember if you can trade Gretzky you can trade anybody.

[Coach]

People are pushing the panic button waaaay to early here. The team is implimenting a system that is dramatically different from the one they've been playiong for the past few years.

I think the team is largely improved from last year and the team is at least entertaining to watch which is more than I can say for the past couple years of Flames hockey.

And also, failing is not winning. No matter how Bob MacKenzie, Dreger et al want to spin it. It is an embarrasing way to attempt to build a team and it should be punished not encouraged.

[The Fonz]

I would love to see a breakdown of the odds. Anyone know where to find?

[ComixZone]

I would love to see a breakdown of the odds. Anyone know where to find?

They haven't really been announced yet. Last week Bob Mckenzie was talking that there is a framework for them at the moment, but they will be re-done in order to better favour the bottom teams.

[magicpixels]

People are pushing the panic button waaaay to early here. The team is implimenting a system that is dramatically different from the one they've been playiong for the past few years.

I think the team is largely improved from last year and the team is at least entertaining to watch which is more than I can say for the past couple years of Flames hockey.

And also, failing is not winning. No matter how Bob MacKenzie, Dreger et al want to spin it. It is an embarrasing way to attempt to build a team and it should be punished not encouraged.

They just got routed by the worst team in the league. A team that's missing it's entire first line and was playing its 3rd game in 4 nights. A team that scored only 1 goal in their previous 3 games.

When you lose to teams like this it's time to take a step back and seriously look at who you are and where you are going.

They aren't going to be in the playoffs and that's obvious.

[JayP]

Why must it either be one or the other?

The thing I don't get in this constant argument is the notion that the Flames only have two choices: either to embark on a scorched earth rebuild, or to continue to attempt to ice competitive teams via free agency and trades each year in hopes of making the playoffs at the expense of the longer term future. I just don't see either currently at work in the Flames organisation. Rather, it seems to me that management is taking a more patient approach: gradual turnover in the roster and restocking through the draft, supplemented by the free agent market. This is my interpretation of the last couple of drafts and also the way in which Feaster has constructed the current roster.

I don't think there are many serious Flames fans who actually believe that the current group is now or at any point in the next couple of seasons a legitimate contender in the League. However, I also think that this is not otherwise some egregious oversight on the part of management that urgently must be corrected. Could another alternative simply be that the next couple of seasons are transition periods through which the team is rebuilt more gradually?

I would strongly disagree that the Flames aren't signing free agents and making trades to try and make the playoffs every year. We did sign 2 free agents to long-term, $4m+ dollar deals this summer. We did trade away a 2nd rounder and a prospect to acquire Cammalleri last year. We signed a 32-year old Tanguay to a 5 year deal two summers ago. Those are all clear moves towards aging veterans with a focus on winning now.

Either way, this idea of "gradually" improving the roster is the same strategy that 75% of the league employs. Except we're starting from behind everyone else given our lack of prospect depth and the fact that our main roster doesn't have a single impact player between the ages of 23-27 (almost all other teams have one or the other). So not only do we have to beat everyone at their own game - we have to do so starting at a disadvantage. Sounds like a prudent strategy to me.

[indes]

If we go with a defenseman I would probably cry and realize this franchise is going nowhere for the next 5 years.

No point drafting Seth so we can wait 5 years for him to develop, D take too long and are too unpredictable

[Tailgator]

No to the idea and no to the rhyme.

How about "Not Winnin' for McKinnon" then?:Dkidding.....

[magicpixels]

I would strongly disagree that the Flames aren't signing free agents and making trades to try and make the playoffs every year. We did sign 2 free agents to long-term, $4m+ dollar deals this summer. We did trade away a 2nd rounder and a prospect to acquire Cammalleri last year. We signed a 32-year old Tanguay to a 5 year deal two summers ago. Those are all clear moves towards aging veterans with a focus on winning now.

Either way, this idea of "gradually" improving the roster is the same strategy that 75% of the league employs. Except we're starting from behind everyone else given our lack of prospect depth and the fact that our main roster doesn't have a single impact player between the ages of 23-27 (almost all other teams have one or the other). So not only do we have to beat everyone at their own game - we have to do so starting at a disadvantage. Sounds like a prudent strategy to me.

In all fairness we didn't trade a pick for Cammy. We traded Bourque straight up for him which is a steal. The 2nd round pick was given for Ramo.

You pointed out our problem fairly well. We are an aging team and it's hard to expect us to compete well against teams that are significantly younger.

It's fair to say for guys like Iginly, Tanguay, Kipper, etc that their best years are behind them.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Stop Winnin' for MacKinnon has a much better ring to it.

[joe_mullen]

People are pushing the panic button waaaay to early here. The team is implimenting a system that is dramatically different from the one they've been playiong for the past few years.

I think the team is largely improved from last year and the team is at least entertaining to watch which is more than I can say for the past couple years of Flames hockey.

And also, failing is not winning. No matter how Bob MacKenzie, Dreger et al want to spin it. It is an embarrasing way to attempt to build a team and it should be punished not encouraged.

no panic here...have over 250 games of evidence that a rebuild is overdue. a first class franchise would have started one sometime in 2009 or 2010. this team/organization still has an extremely shortsighted view (whether it be hanging on to iginla for too long, not being sellers at trade deadlines or signing too many forwards to ensure sven a top 6/9 spot) that is inevitably driving it towards ongoing mediocrity (at best). the time for panic was a long time ago, we're well past that point now.

[The Fonz]

A nice breakdown for the non-playoff picks would be...

Teams 30-26
20%
18%
15%
12%
10%
= 75%

Teams 25-21
8%
6%
4%
2%
1%
= 21%

Teams 20-17
1%
1%
1%
1%
= 4%

[pikester]

The simple fact is this management team is constantly fooling themselves, & more importantly the fans, into thinking that with a few tweaks this is a contending playoff team. Reality should be clueing people in but for whatever reason (fear of a season ticket holder revolt I suspect), they seem stubborn to the point of risking the integrity of their franchise.

No one is endorsing a full blown, burn it to the ground rebuild being required. I'm sure if you sat down over a few Scotch with Katz & Tambellini they'd admit that being forced into a bottom up rebuild on account of sucking so bad is not how they wanted to accomplish it but none the less that is what they reaped.

The only thing left for the Flames to do without completely dismantling what they have would be a "mid level' rebuild keeping GlenX, Gio, Brodie, Sven, Hudler, etc; then moving out Kipper, Iggy, JayBo, maybe Backlund for other younger prospects & picks.

You know that old saying about doing the same things & expecting a different result...

[polak]

It's the Flames.

If we draft #1 we'll get another Patrik Stefan.

You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.

[North East Goon]

The odds of winning the lottery are the same, I believe. But the odds of getting the top pick have changed dramatically for some positions. Finishing last used to get you a 48.6% chance of picking first overall. Now it is only 25%.

Thanks Edmonton!

[Coach]

They just got routed by the worst team in the league. A team that's missing it's entire first line and was playing its 3rd game in 4 nights. A team that scored only 1 goal in their previous 3 games.

When you lose to teams like this it's time to take a step back and seriously look at who you are and where you are going.

They aren't going to be in the playoffs and that's obvious.


Its a game. S*** happens. Two crappy goals go in an all of a sudden a game in which you carried the play for the majority becomes a loss. I highly doubt this will be the first time the last place team beats a team above them this season.

In fact I'm willing to bet that a bottom 5 team will beat a top 5 team at least 5 times this season.

I don't disagree with trading off some aging assets for younger players and prospects, if the deals are right. By I still expect to compete. The minute a team starts a mantra of losing in order to gain (a slight) chance at getting top picks is the minute I find another team to cheer for. Thats not what hockey, or sports in general is about. It's about winning. Puck races, board battles, games, series', Stanley Cups.

Getting a top 5 pick because you suck (possibly on purpose) is not winning.

[JayP]

In all fairness we didn't trade a pick for Cammy. We traded Bourque straight up for him which is a steal. The 2nd round pick was given for Ramo.

You pointed out our problem fairly well. We are an aging team and it's hard to expect us to compete well against teams that are significantly younger.

It's fair to say for guys like Iginly, Tanguay, Kipper, etc that their best years are behind them.

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.

[Coach]

no panic here...have over 250 games of evidence that a rebuild is overdue. a first class franchise would have started one sometime in 2009 or 2010. this team/organization still has an extremely shortsighted view (whether it be hanging on to iginla for too long, not being sellers at trade deadlines or signing too many forwards to ensure sven a top 6/9 spot) that is inevitably driving it towards ongoing mediocrity (at best). the time for panic was a long time ago, we're well past that point now.

Panic got us into this mess when Darryl Sutter traded one of the games best young defenseman for crap, amongst other bad moves. Thats what panic breeds. ENSURING players spots (even young promising ones) is another problem this team has had. Nothing is for sure I think many of the signings and trades were made to create competition amongst the players. And I think if Sven was healthy we'd see him take over for Cammy if he doesnt get his crap together in the next game or two.

[Coach]

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.


If people want to trade him we have to have someone to play in his place, don't we?. Otherwise our tandem in net would be Irving/?

Also don't know if trading a 2nd for a prime aged goalie (who is looking great overseas btw) is a HUGE risk. Risk maybe. Huge, I don't know. With that 2nd rounder could you draft a good prime aged-goaltender? Arent good players between 22-28 exactly what everyone wants?

[Stay Golden]

What are the new rules for the lottery draft break down?
The last place team isn't guaranteed the first pick. I don't know if this is true or not but i heard that the bottom 14 teams would be eligible? Or is it all of them because of the lock out season?

So losing to draft could be pointless especially with the Flames likely bad luck we finish in the bottom and pick 10th etc because of an unlucky draw.

I like that MacKinnon kid anyways.

[JiriHrdina]

They just got routed by the worst team in the league.

Come on, anyone that watched the game knows that 6-3 was not indicative - this was a 3-3 game late in the third and for the most part evenly played.

Every post your write appears to be designed to tick off the board.

[JiriHrdina]

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.

I think the Ramo scenario is interesting - though one wonders if they would have made it if they had Brossoit and Gillies in the system developing at they are now - back then.

I think the concern is that there isn't a clear successor to Kipper - and certainly there were even less options when they traded for Ramo.

I actually take comfort in the fact that they have a few options for the post-Kipper world.

[Tinordi]

I really hope people digest the realities here. There is no road that's a gradual improvement. Hoping for that strategy to somehow turn the franchise into a contender is delusional. Thinking about short term failure for long term success does not make you less of a fan or less honourable of a franchise. What do we care about here, our principles or winning the damn cup?

Only the people who have lambasted the Oilers and face the prospect of eating serious crow are the ones now piping up saying that course is unacceptable.

[Tinordi]

I think the Ramo scenario is interesting - though one wonders if they would have made it if they had Brossoit and Gillies in the system developing at they are now - back then.

I think the concern is that there isn't a clear successor to Kipper - and certainly there were even less options when they traded for Ramo.

I actually take comfort in the fact that they have a few options for the post-Kipper world.
If things unfold as they appear to be by season's end, I'd rather have the 2nd rounder than Ramo.

[indes]

Disagree, scorched earth is a bull#### strategy. Feaster should be able to rebuild on the fly with the acquisitions of Hudler, Cervenka, Sven and Backlund.

We have some good veteran wingers who should net us some returns. Looking at the past 5 games I'm convinced this team would look just as good
without the likes of Cammy, Iggy, Kipper and to a lesser extent Tanguay.

On the flip side we all remember the famous quote from Feaster about how he won't rebuild. So we'll probably go down swinging...like a 90lb 84 old

[nik-]

It's going to be painful to watch Montreal take a nice player with that 2nd. Just like it sucked that we had to trade down this year to replenish our 2nd.

They need to just stop trading our picks from the first two rounds. Percentages be damned, lets at least give ourselves a chance at picking a good player here.

Additionally, we don't need scorched earth here at all. We just need to move out the two "faces of the franchise" for assets. We'll still have some nice players on this team, and while goaltending might be rough, trading away a 35 and 36 year old isn't "tanking". It's taking a sober look at your asset base and maximizing it to avoid bottoming out.

[Coach]

Only the people who have lambasted the Oilers and face the prospect of eating serious crow are the ones now piping up saying that course is unacceptable.

There are many teams that remain competitive for years/decades at a time while not being perpetually terrible in order to gain high picks. I would think there are more teams that see success from this than tanking. Columbus, Florida, NYI, Edmonton have all been working on this losing formula for years and it hasn't shown much improvement on any of those teams. Sure the potential is there, but until they actually do something that shows significant improvement the jury is out.

And even if the Oilers win a cup in the next few years, they will have forever and always lost their way there and in my mind, it completely flies in the face of sport in general. The fact that they are celebrated in the media and by their fans for losing is facepalm inducing.

[Brannigans Law]

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Dion is just in a slump and will bounce back. I think once things with Mike Keenan get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Bouwmeester is just adjusting to the Western Conference. I think once things with Brent Sutter get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. We need to Brent work his system with his new secondary pieces and Iginla will get his goals. I think once things with Bouwmeester and this defensive core get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

[Bingo]

There are just as many example of tank and never recover teams as tank and then become contenders ... it's not a guaranteed recipe at all.

I like the Philly rebuild from a few years ago where they made some bold moves (Forsberg etc) and altered their future while picking in the top ten to 15.

The key is building depth and continuing to put the best team on the ice that you can. What does that mean? Good adds in the right age range and not stop gaping with vets that have seen their better days.

The Flames have more interesting players in the fold than they've had in any of the last three seasons. These players aren't in their mid 30's they are young, or mid to late 20's and that is promising. The puck moving aspect of the current team suggests they are closer to the style needed to win in to today's NHL compared to that "we can't make a mistake" team that we've seen for some time.

I think they are on the right path, but that path may not lead to the playoffs this season.

Fans will hate to hear this but I think you can almost chart Jankowski and Gaudreau as the pace the team is on. If they can supplant that with some moves this year (that is they fall out of the race and move some vets) then great, but like others when the puck drops I have to cheer for a win.

But like Jiri said it's nice to have a silver lining.

[JiriHrdina]

If things unfold as they appear to be by season's end, I'd rather have the 2nd rounder than Ramo.

If Ramo turns into the next starter, I don't know why you would feel that way. The chances of a 31st overall pick turning into an impact player is relatively small.

[Coach]

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Dion is just in a slump and will bounce back. I think once things with Mike Keenan get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Bouwmeester is just adjusting to the Western Conference. I think once things with Brent Sutter get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. We need to Brent work his system with his new secondary pieces and Iginla will get his goals. I think once things with Bouwmeester and this defensive core get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

Yeah the problem right here is that team wasn't allowed to get settled. That was a good team. And the subsequent terribleness was in wake of pushing the panic button then.

[JiriHrdina]

It's going to be painful to watch Montreal take a nice player with that 2nd. Just like it sucked that we had to trade down this year to replenish our 2nd..

But again why? If Ramo turns into the next starting goalie (I realize that it is an if - but so is picking a good player in the early 2nd), there's nothing wrong with giving up that 2nd.

I agree the Flames need to stop trading 2nds - but moving one for a potential starting goalie isn't terrible in the least.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

If we had a top three pick, we shouldnt be surprised if we end up trading that down to a 7th or 8th and then getting a 2nd rounder out of the deal.

I would be extremely surprised if that scenario happened. I think a trade down that far might be worth more than a 2nd rounder. And I doubt this is the kind of draft where you'd want to trade out of the top 3.

[Resolute 14]

If Ramo turns into the next start, I don't know why you would feel that way. The chances of a 31st overall pick turning into an impact player is relatively small.

I wonder if he would rather have the 2nd we gave up for Kiprusoff as well.

Not to mention the fallacy of directly equating two parts of a multi-player trade to each other.

[nik-]

But again why? If Ramo turns into the next starting goalie (I realize that it is an if - but so is picking a good player in the early 2nd), there's nothing wrong with giving up that 2nd.

I agree the Flames need to stop trading 2nds - but moving one for a potential starting goalie isn't terrible in the least.

It's not terrible in a vacuum, but the fact that it's become a habit is a problem to me.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

People thought Eric Johnson and Jack Johnson were can't miss stud defencemen too.

They are. They are both legitimate top pairing guys for their team. Not necessarily Norris candidates though I'll give you that.

Frankly Seth Jones looks more impressive than either of them did at the same age.

Can't go wrong with MacKinnon or Jones IMO. Jones is a rare, rare talent. MacKinnon fits our needs but so does Jones.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

If we go with a defenseman I would probably cry and realize this franchise is going nowhere for the next 5 years.

No point drafting Seth so we can wait 5 years for him to develop, D take too long and are too unpredictable

A guy like Jones looks NHL ready right now. Not sure D are any more unpredictable than F. The bust rate is pretty similar from what I've seen. Some years defensemen can actually be safer picks.

[afc wimbledon]

This is a dumb effing arguement, the window for a rebuild has closed, the age, lack of performance and salary structure of the league makes it fairly irrelavant what you do with the Kipper Iginla and co, history plus the start to the season indicates the team isn't making the playoffs and probably wont for a while.

[JiriHrdina]

It's not terrible in a vacuum, but the fact that it's become a habit is a problem to me.

Sure, I don't think anyone disagrees. But every move should be assessed on its own merit.

[nik-]

Sure, I don't think anyone disagrees. But every move should be assessed on its own merit.

I don't disagree with that, I just think that the merit isn't solely affected by this piece for that piece in a situation like this. Past move and prospect base also impact the merit on an organizational level.

Like I said, it's not going to kill me or kill the franchise, it's just going to be painful to have to watch it again.

[Locke]

They are. They are both legitimate top pairing guys for their team. Not necessarily Norris candidates though I'll give you that.

Frankly Seth Jones looks more impressive than either of them did at the same age.

Can't go wrong with MacKinnon or Jones IMO. Jones is a rare, rare talent. MacKinnon fits our needs but so does Jones.

If the Calgary Flames have an opportunity to draft a guy thats being pegged as #1 centre they have to do it. If they passed that up after years of messing around trying to fit round pegs into the square #1C hole then....well....

http://i.imgur.com/UjClOLB.jpg

[Flames Draft Watcher]

If the Calgary Flames have an opportunity to draft a guy thats being pegged as #1 centre they have to do it. If they passed that up after years of messing around trying to fit round pegs into the square #1C hole then....well....

Agreed. That said this Jones guy might be the best defensive prospect I've ever seen in my time of following the draft (didn't see any of Doughty in his draft year.) So like I said I don't think you can go wrong. Pronger dragged some teams to the cup so #1 d-men are obviously quite valuable too.

I've been hoping the Flames would draft a big #1 centre since '97. I'd be ecstatic to get MacKinnon. That said I think Jankowski might be our best bet to get a big #1 centre since we drafted Nieuwendyk. I really like the Jankowski pick.

So yeah I'm all for getting a #1 centre. But at the same time I'm not automatically turning down the #1 d-man, its worth debating. IMO in our prospect pool we have a better chance of getting a #1 centreman out of Jankowksi or perhaps even Backlund than we do of getting a #1 d-man out of Wotherspoon/Culkin/Kulak/Brodie/etc.

So like I keep saying I don't think you could go wrong with the #1 pick taking MacKinnon or Jones. Both rare talents, both rare commodities at their position. Flames can really use a #1 centre and a #1 d-man.

[FlamesAddiction]

If you think Jones is the next Pronger, then you take him even if Matt Stajan is our #1 centre.

[Caged Great]

I'd prefer Not Winnin for MacKinnon or Boo'in for Drouin than Death for Seth. I'd I'd be alright with Farkov for Barkov as well.

[Calgary4LIfe]

In regards to 'tanking' - I never agree with purposeful tanking. Just play hard and always try to win. That is the best recipe for success in sports.

With that being said, will the Flames make some very big moves trading out some veterans for some picks/prospects? I think by game #20 the Flames will be much more telling of what will happen. I expect Iginla to be shopped if the Flames are not in a playoff spot by then, with the trade finally taking place by the deadline (by the way, when is the deadline this year?).

I think the writing is on the wall this season with regards to Iginla. I don't always put too much emphasis on 'reading between the lines', but this time with Iginla, it is different. It just seems the organization and Iginla are mutually going to decide what happens by the deadline with regards to him.

Question will really be at that time, how deep will that go? How many vets will be moved? I really don't think it will be a full-blown rebuild.

For the immediate future, I actually anticipate a trade very quickly. I am sure Feaster is shopping around a defencemen, and possibly a winger. Depth is good, but there are too many guys on 1-way contracts. Flames seemed really happy with the way many players from the Heat were able to jump up and provide depth last season with all the injuries (and the team did fairly well then).

Now.. Jones or MacKinnon? In my opinion, having an elite defender = having an elite center. Seems neither one is something that is missing from Stanley Cup winners. You need impact players. I would be happy if the Flames drafted either of them. Besides, the real catch is McDavid after all, right? At any rate, building a Stanley Cup contender is about gaining as many impact players as possible, surrounding them with good depth, and supplying excellent coaching that fits your team. I don't think the Flames would be rebuilding for as long if they were to finish last in the standings as compared to Edmonton - I think the Flames' scouting is much better than Edmonton's, and the Flames still have a lot of young and capable defenders, with a few more slowly coming up the pipeline that should at least provide depth and some stability.

This will be an interesting shortened season for the Flames. I will be amazed if they finish in the bottom 5 of the league without moving some key guys. Yes, they are bottom 5 now, but would be very surprised if they continue being THIS bad. They may not make the playoffs, but I doubt they finish anywhere in the lottery pick realm without trading a lot of their vets. Question is, should they? I think they will be more inclined to answer that question at game 20.

[868904]

IF the Flames get the 1st overall and Jones is the clear cut top pick, they should be trying to milk further assets from the team holding the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th pick in exchange for the 1st overall, so they can draft one of the centres and pick up an additional asset.

I don't think the Flames will get the 1st overall anyways. This team will finish with one of the the last picks of the lottery teams as usual after the team goes on a late season winning streak to screw themselves of a good pick again. same old same old.

Imagine if this team's ownership wasn't delusional, we would have traded off assets last year at the deadline and finished bottom five and could be watching Galchenyuk and Baertschi right now plus a bunch of other young assets.

[Coach]

They may not make the playoffs, but I doubt they finish anywhere in the lottery pick realm without trading a lot of their vets. Question is, should they? I think they will be more inclined to answer that question at game 20.

Isn't any team not in the playoffs now given a shot at number 1?

[$ven27]

Of course I never want to see the team purposely lose, or lose in general. However if this is the season that we end up in the bottom 5, it's one of the best drafts in years to do so.

[Locke]

I'm envisioning the Flames getting royally screwed by the revision to the draft lottery system.

This time the team will finish in a place where they should get a good pick only to get screwed by the new lottery system and get leapfrogged.

[Stay Golden]

I'm envisioning the Flames getting royally screwed by the revision to the draft lottery system.

This time the team will finish in a place where they should get a good pick only to get screwed by the new lottery system and get leapfrogged.

thats the way i feel also. There is no reason to hope they tank for a low draft pick. It would be all for nothing.
A wasted season.

[puckluck2]

I would never pick a defencemen first overall unless he was heads and shoulders above the competition in a weak draft year.

Too many things can go wrong with defencemen.

[Coach]

I would never pick a defencemen first overall unless he was heads and shoulders above the competition in a weak draft year.

Too many things can go wrong with defencemen.

What things can go wrong with a dman that cant with any other player?

[Table 5]

The Flames have a fairly decent track record of developing/acquiring defenseman already, so I feel like they could fill that need elsewhere without having to spend a top 5 pick. We have had a terrible time trying to get a true Centerman through alternate means, so if we get the chance to draft a #1 guy, that's what I'd be doing. As good as Jones is, I think a #1 Center is a rarer gem. Plus I hate the name Seth.

[Inglewood Jack]

What things can go wrong with a dman that cant with any other player?

not enough d-men are drafted first overall to give a good comparison, but look at this list and tell me how many franchise defencement came out of first pick vs. forwards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_NHL_draft_picks

I dunno what it is, but the d guys that you're really able to build around seem to come in later in the draft, indicating to me that scouts consider them riskier, much like goalies.

[Table 5]

In the last 20 years, the following defenseman have gone first overall: Hamrlik, Jovanovski, Berard, Phillips, Johnson.

While you have some good defenseman there, I would say I'd be pretty disappointed if thats what we'd get from a 1st overall. Obviously a small sample size, but it does seem like the chances of drafting a franchise forward are considerably higher.

[boggledepot]

Are you suggesting intentionally tanking?

We would hardly notice the difference.

[SuperMatt18]

Similar to defenseman taken second overall.

The following defensemen have went second overall in the last 20 years:

Ryan Murray
Victor Hedman
Drew Doughty
Andrei Zyuzin
Wade Redden
Oleg Tverdosky
Chris Pronger

[Sylvanfan]

At least it looks like a decent draft, so even if it's a top 5 pick, the result should be a pretty good player. Certainly the higher your pick the better the odds of getting a top player.

I'd rather be a bad team in a 48 game season than full 82 game one. So if there was a time to suck and not be so good, maybe this is the best time to do so. Granted, I think you have to let things play out. Intentionally trading players away to be bad right now would send a bad message. But if the team isn't doing particularly well 30 games into the season, than it's definitely time to consider making moves to trade off guys who aren't part of a multi year plan.

In terms of drafting defence vs. forward, a lot of guys nominated for Norris trophy's have spent time in the AHL. Conversely there have been a few guys going straight from Junior to the NHL, seem to struggle a couple of years later. Guys like Phaneuf, and Luke Schenn come to mind. Outside of Martin St.Louis, or goaltenders, it's highly infrequent that you see a Hart candidate who spend any time in the minors outside of a conditioning stint. IMO the forwards are much more ready to play in the NHL. If you're in the top 5, and the players are close in terms of ceiling...draft the forward.

[Coach]

not enough d-men are drafted first overall to give a good comparison, but look at this list and tell me how many franchise defencement came out of first pick vs. forwards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_NHL_draft_picks

I dunno what it is, but the d guys that you're really able to build around seem to come in later in the draft, indicating to me that scouts consider them riskier, much like goalies.

That's fine. I'm not advocating that teams should. I think taking defenseman in latter rounds more has to do with them developing slower than forwards. There are less spots for Dmen on a team and you have to, HAVE TO have man strength to be an NHL defenseman. An 18 yo forward can come in with slick moves and get through/around/past players but stopping them takes a different level of stability that most 18-22 year olds just dont have.

BUT the OP seemd to imply that there is more that can go wrong with a defenseman than a forward which I think is complete BS. Theres just as much chance of a career ending injury or not living up to hype for a forward as there is for any other player (goalie or dman). People don't blow high picks on dman generally because they dont want/can't wait 5 years for that player to make an impact. Not because there is more chance of them not panning out.

[1stLand]

If we keep playing Iginla 22 minutes a game we will end up in last place for sure.

By then, a 1st choice draft pick will be irrelevant anyways because the following year we will need to put Mackinnon on the fourth line with Baertschi so Iggy can keep his precious 1st line minutes every game

[Hockey_Ninja]

Standings death for Seth? Really? REALLY?!?!.....You can come up with a more clever title then that. How about "Get kicked in the Stones for Seth Jones"?

[AltaGuy]

Seth Jones really does look like the second coming of Rob Blake to me, and I wouldn't be unhappy with that!

That said, I would never draft him over a player who could potentially be a Stamkos or Tavares. I think you have to take the forward, unless you're the Oilers, of course.

[$ven27]

Standings death for Seth? Really? REALLY?!?!.....You can come up with a more clever title then that. How about "Get kicked in the Stones for Seth Jones"?

I prefer Take Meth for Seth.

[JiriHrdina]

How about "A case of the Moans for Jones"

or "Don't resist Fate - drop for Nate"

No...those suck.

[Sylvanfan]

We're not winnin but we're gettin MacKinnon?

Sounds like something a Leaf fan might say.

[Coach]

No back-bones for Jones

[North East Goon]

This seems to be coming down to the choice the Islanders had to make between Tavares and Hedman, history suggests they made the right decision by going Centreman.

[FlamesAddiction]

Don't toally suck, and draft Hunter Shinkaruk?

Continue the curse, go for Darnel Nurse?

[Flash Walken]

A guy like Jones looks NHL ready right now. Not sure D are any more unpredictable than F. The bust rate is pretty similar from what I've seen. Some years defensemen can actually be safer picks.

Seth Jones looks like Dougie Hamilton who looks like a future Rob Blake.

I'd be all over Jones. It's not just raw ability I see in him.

[The Yen Man]

Standings death for Seth? Really? REALLY?!?!.....You can come up with a more clever title then that. How about "Get kicked in the Stones for Seth Jones"?

Boner for Joner?

[Flash Walken]

Boner for Joner?

Joner Jam 2013?

[1stLand]

How about, "Double Shift Iggy & Fall for Mackinny"?

[nik-]

How about "trade Iginla for a first and a D prospect to maximize the asset, use that late first round pick to take another D man and use our potentially high pick to take a skilled potential number 1 centerman"

It just rolls off the tongue!

[MrMastodonFarm]

If the Flames totally falter and get a top 3 pick I hope it's this year. A shortened season instead of 82 games of full suck would be much better on the ol' ticker.

[Muffins]

"Master**** at the thought of getting Nate"?

[Diemenz]

How some of you guys call yourselves fans amazes me, 5 games into the season and already counting out the flames hoping for a 1st overall. Hey OP take a drive 3 hours north you would fit in better.

[nik-]

How some of you guys call yourselves fans amazes me, 5 games into the season and already counting out the flames hoping for a 1st overall. Hey OP take a drive 3 hours north you would fit in better.

If you're not a fan, you wouldn't even take the time to post here. A fan doesn't have to accept or enjoy the status quo or the direction of the team, if a person crapping on the team has the best interests of the organization at heart for the long term ... they're a fan.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/686/Deal_with_it_dog_gif.gif

[North East Goon]

Took a punch to the taint for Nate!

[Teroy]

I don’t want to see us lose just so we can get a better draft choice. However, it’s time to try something different than the same old, same old. If we end up with that “losing draft choice” at least we tried. It’s time for many of us to realize that Iginla just doesn’t have it any more. He doesn’t have the foot speed and as a result has lost much of his scoring ability. He’s still a great mucker and puck handler along the boards and in front of the net. If we’re going to keep him, that’s the role he should be used in. Stop trying to set him up for his patented slap shot. It’s not working and hasn’t for a couple of years. Let Iginla become a set-up man. Plus, they definitely need to shake up the line he’s on. It doesn’t work. Leave the Czech line together as the #1 line. Try Iginla, Stempniak and Backlund as the #2 line. Iginla plays the left side on the current pp so leave him on the left side. You end up with a couple of grinders with scoring ability and Backlund’s effort, speed and hopefully scoring. I still haven’t figured out why they move Stajan off the Czech line on the pp. That line works great, why spit it up when you have a man advantage. Sorry but it doesn’t make sense to me to do so unless you have a weakness on that line, which you don’t. Try the new Iginla line as your second pp unit. You can rotate Tanguay and Baertschi (when he returns) through that line till you find a winning combination. Your #3 line would consist of Glencross, Tanguay and Jackman (better yet move someone down and bring Horak back up). Cammalleri hasn’t been performing in the role they’ve had him in so put him on the #4 line with any combination of Jones, Jackman, Comeau, or Begin (less whomever goes down). At the moment we’re a one line team. It’s time to try something radical. We spend too much time trying to create a #1 line, a so so #2 line and a couple of additional throw away lines. We have enough talent to put together 3 good lines and a decent 4th. Come on Hartley, show me you care.

[SebC]

The reason I like forwards over d-men is that they make an impact faster... if you're picking #1 you should be planning for peak on the third year of said draft pick's entry-level contract.

[Enoch Root]

The reason I like forwards over d-men is that they make an impact faster... if you're picking #1 you should be planning for peak on the third year of said draft pick's entry-level contract.
There are two things that recent history shows us:

1) you have a much higher chance of success with a lottery pick if you pick a forward vs a defenseman
2) #1 D is way easier to acquire via trade than a #1 C

If you look at championship teams over the last 20 years, there are way more #1 Cs drafted from lottery picks than #1 Ds. Doughty and Niedermayer (with NJ) are the only Ds taken top 3 by the respective team.

Compare that to Cs, where every single Stanley Cup winner over the last 20 years except the Devils has a home-grown #1 C and many of them were lottery picks.

Draft a #1 C - it is the only way to acquire them.

[Locke]

If the Flames totally falter and get a top 3 pick I hope it's this year. A shortened season instead of 82 games of full suck would be much better on the ol' ticker.

I'm still worried about the Flames sucking and then getting the shaft via the revised draft lottery.

That just smacks of Calgary Flames.

They dont tank, but should get a high pick but then the draft lottery revision sees a team jump 8 spots and snag our pick.

There are two things that recent history shows us:

1) you have a much higher chance of success with a lottery pick if you pick a forward vs a defenseman
2) #1 D is way easier to acquire via trade than a #1 C

If you look at championship teams over the last 20 years, there are way more #1 Cs drafted from lottery picks than #1 Ds. Doughty and Niedermayer (with NJ) are the only Ds taken top 3 by the respective team.

Compare that to Cs, where every single Stanley Cup winner over the last 20 years except the Devils has a home-grown #1 C and many of them were lottery picks.

Draft a #1 C - it is the only way to acquire them.

It isnt the only way, but its the most consistent way. I agree with that, if there is a #1C anywhere close then you have to take him.

[Badgers Nose]

I think a franchise defence man is what this team needs as it rebuilds.

Goaltending depth is good, maybe not Kipper caliber but we won't know until they get a real chance. You never know with goalies. When he was languishing in the 3rd spot in SJ plenty of teams probably passed on Kipper and look how that turned out for the Flames.

Forwards are OK. Apart from a franchise centre I would rather see the Flames draft D. When the Flames trade away the core this year the returning draft picks should fill some scoring holes.

Hartley is the right guy to showcase vets and increase their trade value. IMO it all makes sense now.

[Enoch Root]

Puttin' up with the hate for Nate

[Erick Estrada]

I'm still worried about the Flames sucking and then getting the shaft via the revised draft lottery.

That just smacks of Calgary Flames.

They dont tank, but should get a high pick but then the draft lottery revision sees a team jump 8 spots and snag our pick.


I've been thinking about this myself. It would be so Calgary Flames to finally to finish in the bottom 5 and end up moving a few spots back via the lottery.

[Coach]

I'm still worried about the Flames sucking and then getting the shaft via the revised draft lottery.

That just smacks of Calgary Flames.

They dont tank, but should get a high pick but then the draft lottery revision sees a team jump 8 spots and snag our pick.



See this is much better. I would much rather have this worry than have the popular opinion to be the only way to get better is to tank for your sure fire top pick(s). Its nice to see the league doing SOMETHING to try and prevent purposeful tanking.

[opendoor]

Isn't the only change to the lottery that any non playoff team can move up to 1st? Unless I'm mistaken the most any team can move down the draft order from their standings position is still only one spot.

[Table 5]

Unless I'm mistaken the most any team can move down the draft order from their standings position is still only one spot.

If anybody can find a way, it's us.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I'm envisioning the Flames getting royally screwed by the revision to the draft lottery system.

This time the team will finish in a place where they should get a good pick only to get screwed by the new lottery system and get leapfrogged.

Most you can drop is one pick. Not sure how you could be getting a good pick and get leapfrogged and still not be getting a good pick. If we finish last and get leapfrogged and get the 2nd pick, oh well! If we finish 4th and get leapfrogged and get the 5th pick, oh well!

Flames had never had a top 5 pick in their history.

[89revival]

I'm obviously not a fan of purposely losing games folks.....my point in posting this thread was to start a dialogue pointing out my distaste for how the team is scared to start a serious rebuild.

How did this team get Iggy? Traded Niuewendyk, they traded away a big talent and took a chance on a prospect, they improved the franchise by giving away a piece that was highly coveted at the time. In doing so they built towards getting to within one game of raising the Cup.

This NEEDS to happen again! I love Iggy, Kipper, i've been cheering on this team for 25 years. In that time i've seen other teams make something out of players that were difficult for fans to see traded. IMO teams HAVE to do it in order to remain seriously competitive unless they are blessed with top end and highly rated prospects. We are not in that position. We have some nice prospects but nothing that looks to change the face of this franchise. I love Sven, Backlund shows glimpses but has not done enough to show that he will for sure be a high end talent. Janikowski is likely years away from having a shot at making this team.

Turn aging assets into future assets is a no brainer. Sure it would be awesome to see #12 retire as a Flame, never to don another teams jersey but it's not the way for this team to get better by admitting that there comes a time to turn over the top end talent and build on something new. What if we held onto Nieuwy and never had Jarome....Nieuwy helped Dallas win a cup when they traded for him and i could see the same happening with a Pittsburgh or whoever traded for Jarome.

Has to happen imo....i'm sick of watching the same old song and dance every year for the last 3-4 years. "Oh don't worry, Jarome always starts the season slow".....Ya no kidding, that's why we always end up in 9th.

This year more then ever you need your best player to be hot and ready to produce from the start of a 48 game schedule. Jarome is being Jarome, a slow starter.

Has Cammelleri really been very good since we got him back from Montreal? I haven't seen it. Is Tanguay really a top line player on many other teams in this league? I would say no, i like him as a player, not as a top line player. When Lee Stempniak is leading your team in scoring and you go 1-3 at home in a short season......you're in trouble.

Don't kid yourselves, have a look at the whole schedule. The game get no easier, they're playing very good teams every game.

As i look through our roster all i see is mediocrity....Glencross, Stempniak, Stajan etc....all players a team needs but these are some of the guys we DEPEND on being top 6 players....that doesn't cut it. Not good enough.

Hudler and Cervenka looked pretty dam good against Colorado, nice to see but in the end those are the type of players that should be on a 2nd line. They looked by far to be better then Iggy, Cammy, Tangs.....

Rebuild the damn team is all i'm asking.

[Yoho]

Look what Nash got the Blue Jackets, I think we may be disappointed with some of the returns our aged players with diminishing numbers fetch,

If it's not a crazy return I'd be just as happy to keep Iginla here if he wants to sign

I agree with a rebuild, I just don't know if the players on this team "parlay" into meaningful draft picks or prospects. The time to trade them was years ago.

[Fire Park '71]

I think the only light at the end the tunnel, for Flames fans, is the retirement of 12, 13, 34, 40. I firmly believe these four players aren't going anywhere until their contracts expire and even then, they will probably be re-signed. Similar to the Rangers of the '70's, 80's, 90's bringing in high profile names that are close to the end of their careers, (Somehow, hoping name power trumps youth and skill). Except the Flames are hanging on to, two high profile names that have been here the whole time and seem to have lost their desire and ability to win. And have re-cycled two others. One has no clue what he is doing and is probably pouting because he is not playing with 12 and 40 and the other is useless on the point on the powerplay. These are some of the, supposed, leaders of your Calgary Flames. Pathetic. And I am becoming apathetic. On a positive side note, PLEASE, Jiri, don't become discouraged. You are the best player on the Flames. Get mad, downright emotional, and show these guys how to win. This is the guy they need to surround with other players that hate to lose and put the team first. And I want to see Brust or Taylor up for a look-see. Do it and do it, NOW.

[Calgary4LIfe]

If the Flames do decide to trade some of their players for picks, unless Cammy gets it going this season, there is not much point in trading him. I would think next season is the best time to trade him even if he gets it going now.

[Matty81]

Teams that rebuild the most quickly and effectively have the stones at the deadline to say theirs isn't a cup team rather than expect they'll be the miracle team that goes from 18th place to the cup. You have so much leverage there because there are so many idiots with fringe teams ready to double down on their 2-3% chances of winning the cup ready to reduce their odds for the next 7 or 8 years.

If you deal even a couple veteran assets at the deadline you could pick up 2 or 3 prospects without a scorched earth rebuild. (assuming the flames are even in that spot, which i'm not convinced of)

In any other business it would be firable to focus on one year with very poor odds of success to the detriment of the next 7 or 8 but not only do the flames do it, a good chunk of the fanbase supports it.

[dissentowner]

If we had a top three pick, we shouldnt be surprised if we end up trading that down to a 7th or 8th and then getting a 2nd rounder out of the deal. Only three times in the last decade have we picked the BPA.... Phaneuf, Backlund and Baertschi. Go figure, they're all playing in the NHL now.
If we have a top 3 pick in this draft it better be something better than a 2nd to move down.

[PeteLFan]

Can Nate make saves and kill penalties as well?

[edn88]

Maybe Feaster has put a team together to be sort of entertaining, while sucking enough to make a top two draft pick.

suck for 1.5 years (this one included) then come back full of young talent at some pont
Sven, Johny Hockey, Nate McKinnon, Kari Ramo, Hudler, Glencross, Brodie, Gio, etc.

[Henry Fool]

Boner for Joner?

Or at least Goof Off for Barkov.

[LIP MAN]

Maybe Feaster has put a team together to be sort of entertaining, while sucking enough to make a top two draft pick.

suck for 1.5 years (this one included) then come back full of young talent at some pont
Sven, Johny Hockey, Nate McKinnon, Kari Ramo, Hudler, Glencross, Brodie, Gio, etc.

I'm under the impression that Feaster has done what he could to stay competitive, although he's well aware that if we falter we can trade high-end assets at the deadline. My biggest fear was us not having a season, and losing the opportunity to:
1) See what the teams results are on-ice.
2) Allow some of our prospects and youth to get lesser roles and learn the complete game.
3) Miss the final opportunity to sell some assets at the deadline, such as Iggy, Cammy, Kipper, etc. Especially with it looking like a sellers market in a deep draft year.

This draft we should ensure we acquire that coveted #1C such as Mackinnon or Barkov if possible. Moving forward 4-5 years, having a deep middle with Jankowski, Backlund and a big #1C along with our other prospects we will have some great building blocks moving forward and add grit/speed as need be.

[Johnny Rotten]

The odds of winning the lottery are the same, I believe. But the odds of getting the top pick have changed dramatically for some positions. Finishing last used to get you a 48.6% chance of picking first overall. Now it is only 25%.

I think though for the team who finishes last, even if they lose the lottery, they still only go back one place I believe, so this year at least, picking second should still get you a great pick.

[GoFlamesGo1989]

I'm looking at the draft rankings, and I'm hoping the Flames if he's available at our pick take Sean Monahan. This is the exact type of player the Flames need. A big strong skilled Canadian Centerman. He is putting up great numbers on a terrible Ottawa 67's. here's hoping we get our guy.

[Sylvanfan]

Most you can drop is one pick. Not sure how you could be getting a good pick and get leapfrogged and still not be getting a good pick. If we finish last and get leapfrogged and get the 2nd pick, oh well! If we finish 4th and get leapfrogged and get the 5th pick, oh well!

Flames had never had a top 5 pick in their history.

Not entirely true, the Calgary Flames have not, but Atlanta did, Jacques Richard was the #2 pick in the expansion season, and Tom Lysiak was a 2 pick the next year. Of course the Islanders got Denis Potvin with their pick in 73.

As for moving back one spot in a draft....look at 2004, and if you were one of the two worst teams and got jumped over, you got screwed. No one else in that draft was even close to Malkin or Ovechkin. Even this year it could be a big deal to get bumped down from 4 to 5.

[Iniggywetrust]

I feel like this is probably the best year for the Flames to finish in the bottom 5. The biggest reason for that is that we don't have to suffer through a full 82 game season of being a bottom feeder. A quick 48 games of exciting, non defensive hockey, where we lose a bunch and end up 26th in the league.

We can at least have hope for a successful season for half of it, then it's only 20 or so games where it means nothing.

I don't hope for this to happen, but I have not seen anything different on this years team that makes me think they are any better than the last three years. Kipper playing like Dan Cloutier definitely doesn't help our chances either.

[dammage79]

Anything in the top five is awesome. Jones, Drouin, MacKinnon, Barkov anyone would Love to have those kids on their team.

[89revival]

If Cgy played last night like Chicago, we lose 11-1....perfect example of what mediocre players do......a team with a real top 6 DESTROYS Chicago last night. Flames find a way to lose. Sure Emery was good, the boys couldn't raise the damn puck in close, didn't even try!!!!! They did the typical "try and smash the puck through a wall routine"....skilled players rip those pucks top shelf.

REBUILD THE DAMN TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where was Jarome? Jarome is the perfect fit on a team where he's not the top guy cause they have other top end talent that knows how to score goals prior to the 15th game of the season. Frustrating to watch him not produce but it happens every year.

Do it Feaster, make the tough decisions.....

[ricardodw]

It appears that the Flames are a long shot to make the playoffs icing their very best star studded line up.

The team has the most talent in years and Hartley has most players playing well and still after 6 games they are 29th in the league.

They have played 5 of their first 6 games at home.

Small skilled teams like the Flames have difficulty picking up points on the road.... not made for grinding out a road win.


This is a short season and if you are going to tank the best one. I am thinking of 2005-06 (the year after the last strike) were the Bruins tanked and drafted Kessel 5th overall and basically changed their team's future

They have no significant injuries..... Although they have more depth than ever.... but it is all small skilled depth. Someone like Byron and Horak have virtually no chance to get called up into this line-up. They were really close to being full time NHL players with the Flames last year.

If the Flames are able to dump salary there will be a bunch of quality bargain basement UFA's avaiable as teams are forced to cut salary to make next years cap.

The Flames have a lot of quality players that should be able to be turned to assets.



Kipper is nearing the end..... According to the contact he signed this was supposed to be his last year. He presents a problem that if he wins 5-7 games like he did last year he still might not come back to play next year for $1 M without a contract extension (or a change to play for a contender) . Then the Flames might finish 10th or 11th rather than 14-15

Right now Bouwmeester is playing better and has much more value than he has had since he was a UFA.

Is it more important for Iginla to be a Flame for Life or play on a contending team? Is he willing to sign a 2 year extension for a home town discount?



It looks like they can play entertaining hockey while losing.

Should the Flames be targeting 8th spot and hoping to somehow escape a beating in the first round? or be setting up for next year and the year after?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

As for moving back one spot in a draft....look at 2004, and if you were one of the two worst teams and got jumped over, you got screwed. No one else in that draft was even close to Malkin or Ovechkin. Even this year it could be a big deal to get bumped down from 4 to 5.

Well this is being talked about as being one of the deepest drafts ever. And the top end is deep too. Before the WJC I heard some talk that the grouping at the top was 5 deep and there wasn't much between those 5. Getting any sort of high pick this year would be nutty IMO.

[Yoho]

Nm

[Buzzard]

How did this team get Iggy? Traded Niuewendyk, they traded away a big talent and took a chance on a prospect, they improved the franchise by giving away a piece that was highly coveted at the time. In doing so they built towards getting to within one game of raising the Cup.



Sorry to split hairs here, but the Iginla scenario is quite different than Nieuwendyks. The Flames' hands were tied with Niuewendyk. They couldn't afford him and I don't think they necessarily wanted to move him......until he sat out the first half of the season. Nieuwendyk was less than 30, still in his prime, but he was holding out and had to be traded.

The return at the time wasn't considered great, even though Iggy seemed a pretty hot prospect. It's been said Todd Harvey was who the Flames really wanted out of Dallas, but the Stars wouldn't budge and the Flames settled for Iginla.

Your point remains though and I pretty much agree.

[Vinny01]

If there is a year to suffer this is it. A top 5 pick looks like a sure thing this year and putting up with 48bad games is easier to stomach than 82.

I am still concerned what will happen with Iggy. I think a trade might be best for both parties because we will get another first and good young player. I just don't see ownership be willing to bite the bullet. We will continue to be a treadmill team unless we hit major home runs in the draft or accept a short rebuild of 2-3 years

[craig.caulks]

Anything in the top five is awesome. Jones, Drouin, MacKinnon, Barkov anyone would Love to have those kids on their team.

Let's say the Flames win the lottery and pick 1st, do you trade down a spot or 2 or is there someone specific you'd want?

[Matty81]

Let's say the Flames win the lottery and pick 1st, do you trade down a spot or 2 or is there someone specific you'd want?

The chances of trading down get lower the higher up the board you go, as the (perceived) scarcity of the truly elite prospects is way greater than landing an A- prospect or a project.

Based on the reading I've done and the few times I've gotten to watch them (Jones a little more), MacKinnon and Jones are the top of the class, 1A and 1B. If you get a top two pick you don't trade out of the top two but you maybe can feel out the other team.

Barkov and Drouin are the next two, and same thing goes, don't go lower than 4th but trade the 3rd for 4th pick maybe if you really think the other team will let your guy slip, they are close in terms of reputation and value but a big drop off again afterwards.

And with these being all 17 year old kids with a couple months to play, picture could change a little, but it's more likely now that there is a riser than any of those guys drop really far.

Monahan, Lindholm, Shinkaruk and maybe 2 or 3 others are all in that next grouping of very good prospects who could be stars but not absolutely sure fire top 6 forwards. Most teams wouldn't trade, say, Monahan for MacKinnon at all so you'd really need to be blown away.

[moon]

Let's say the Flames win the lottery and pick 1st, do you trade down a spot or 2 or is there someone specific you'd want?

I think it would be stupid to trade out of the top pick or a top 5 pick. You aren't likely to get much to move from 1 to 2 and moving any lower likely gets you a lesser player than you would like.

The Flames need elite level talent and monkeying around with deals seems like a good way to move yourself out of elite level talent.

[pepper24]

Most of the teams that are 4 or 5 points ahead of us have also played 2-3 games more than us. Last in the league is a bit misleading. Hopefully they can find a way to take advantage of those games in hand and get back into the middle of the pack. Tough though to be optimistic with this team especially after a sure win against the Hawks turned into a loss.

All 6 games they've competed. Some full games (VAN, EDM, CHI) where they have got points. Coincidence? The other have been games (SJ, ANA, COL) where they had good periods and bad periods within the same game. Memories of the past few seasons.

Hopefully Hartley can find some consistency with this team as consistent efforts has meant points. Uphill battle based on past seasons and very similar team but he's the right coach to do it.

[Enoch Root]

The chances of trading down get lower the higher up the board you go, as the (perceived) scarcity of the truly elite prospects is way greater than landing an A- prospect or a project.

Based on the reading I've done and the few times I've gotten to watch them (Jones a little more), MacKinnon and Jones are the top of the class, 1A and 1B. If you get a top two pick you don't trade out of the top two but you maybe can feel out the other team.

Barkov and Drouin are the next two, and same thing goes, don't go lower than 4th but trade the 3rd for 4th pick maybe if you really think the other team will let your guy slip, they are close in terms of reputation and value but a big drop off again afterwards.

And with these being all 17 year old kids with a couple months to play, picture could change a little, but it's more likely now that there is a riser than any of those guys drop really far.

Monahan, Lindholm, Shinkaruk and maybe 2 or 3 others are all in that next grouping of very good prospects who could be stars but not absolutely sure fire top 6 forwards. Most teams wouldn't trade, say, Monahan for MacKinnon at all so you'd really need to be blown away.
Agreed.

1-2 are untouchable, franchise players either way and you can't trade those picks.

3-4 is a small step down but still elite prospects.

5-8ish is another step down but better than most years for this spot in the draft (and quite a bit better than some years)

after about 8 or 10, there are still lots of solid prospects, but another step down. All 1st round picks this year are valuable (more so than most years), but the lottery picks this year are way more valuable than during an average year.

(all my opinion of course)

[ricardodw]

Most of the teams that are 4 or 5 points ahead of us have also played 2-3 games more than us. Last in the league is a bit misleading. Hopefully they can find a way to take advantage of those games in hand and get back into the middle of the pack. Tough though to be optimistic with this team especially after a sure win against the Hawks turned into a loss.

All 6 games they've competed. Some full games (VAN, EDM, CHI) where they have got points. Coincidence? The other have been games (SJ, ANA, COL) where they had good periods and bad periods within the same game. Memories of the past few seasons.

Hopefully Hartley can find some consistency with this team as consistent efforts has meant points. Uphill battle based on past seasons and very similar team but he's the right coach to do it.


The Flames have lost 3 home games out-right. Playoff teams don't lose home games.


LA had the most home losses out of playoff teams in the west last year with 14 out of 42.

That would be 8 losses in the 24 home games this year.... 5 more than the Flame already have.

The least home wins by a playoff team last year was 22 (by LA and Phx)

That would be 12.5 for a 24 schedule... Ie the Flames have to win 11 or 12 of their remaining 19 home games AND lose only 5 AND be the best road team in the division like Phx and LA were last year to have a chance to make the play offs.

11-5-3 is what the Flames have to do their remaining 19 home games to have the worst home record of a playoff team and a realistic chance at a playoff spot.

LA and Phx were bigger and tougher and harder working than most teams AND especially this year's Flames.

Maybe they are a miracle team, but they have really dug themselves in a hole.

[Table 5]

This might be my bias showing, but I'd stay away from Barkov simply because of the Russian connection. I know he's technically Finnish, but the guy does have a Russian background (and citizenship) and I just don't rust that mindset to stick around for the long term. Way too many flakes lately since the KHL came around. Same reason I would've passed on Yakupov.....something tells me that guy will not be an Oiler (or maybe even NHLer) in 5 years.

[the2bears]

How about "Butler draws in for MacKinnon"?

[Izzle]

This might be my bias showing, but I'd stay away from Barkov simply because of the Russian connection. I know he's technically Finnish, but the guy does have a Russian background (and citizenship) and I just don't rust that mindset to stick around for the long term. Way too many flakes lately since the KHL came around. Same reason I would've passed on Yakupov.....something tells me that guy will not be an Oiler (or maybe even NHLer) in 5 years.




Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

[Izzle]

This might be my bias showing, but I'd stay away from Barkov simply because of the Russian connection. I know he's technically Finnish, but the guy does have a Russian background (and citizenship) and I just don't rust that mindset to stick around for the long term. Way too many flakes lately since the KHL came around. Same reason I would've passed on Yakupov.....something tells me that guy will not be an Oiler (or maybe even NHLer) in 5 years.

I don't think we will get top two, Columbus and Florida have that covered. If you have a chance to draft Barkov,, you take it. Btw what makes you think that yakupov will flake? Since the last lockout, radulov is the only young impact Russian player to flake. Ovi, kovi (in spite of him being late to training camp), Malkin, Tarasenko, Anisimov, have all chosen to stay in the NHL.


Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

[Ashasx]

Filatov, Zherdev, Frolov...

Filatov literally told the Blue Jackets "Filly don't do rebounds".

[Rifleman]

This thread should've been titled "Not winnin' for McKinnon".

[Izzle]

Good point, I wonder if there were early indications of them flaking? I don't see this from the crop I have listed above.

Anyways, I think that Barkov is the clear number three in this draft. Not to mention Barkov is Finnish and the Finns play the most comparable Canadian game from all the euros.


Posted from Calgarypuck.com App for Android

[IgiTang]

First move has to be Cammalleri, you can recoup the 2nd for him at minimum if moved to a team like Dallas or Anaheim. Then you need to look at moving out Tanguay, if you can get a 2nd for him too, you could be in great shape to consider options on Iginla. If those 2 are moved, Iginla may request a trade to a contender privately. Taking the monkey off managements back so to speak.

If you make those first 2 moves, you then look at your Kipper options. If you can package Bouwmeester and Kipper for a 1st, 2nd and blue chip (Couturier type) then you look at having 2 or 3 2nds, and 2 firsts in a very deep draft. 5 or 6 top 60 picks, Resigning of Cervenka, Hudler locked up, Backlund turning the corner, Bartschi blossoming, Ramo coming over and having a camp of Ramo, Irving, Brosoit, Ortio and potentially Brust competing for Goalie duties.. I see a very bright future and quick turnaround for this team.

Making these moves are hard to consider, but its time. Im a Flames fan first and its a no brainer.

EDIT: plus then Glencross can get put back on the top line where he belongs. Not pushed aside to try and get Cammalleri going.. I like Cammi but im super disapointed how hes playing. Its not like he took the lockout off. He played in the Spengler Cup. Hes been skating. Hes just not getting it done. Its like hes still looking for his teeth out there.

[Flames Fan in Exile]

Whether feaster is mandated by the owners, or he's just stubborn, honestly I don't see him trading any of the core. He's said as much that it won't happen. And if he did, what real return are we really going to get in a fire sale of past due date players? Time and time again the team has stated they wont rebuild aka oilers style... It's not going to change because we hope for the miracle trade of picks and prospects that make us feel any less of the pain that's yet to come. Slow and painful is the flames rebuild mantra, and it's time to stock up on the codeine

[Enoch Root]

Why do people keep suggesting Kipper and Bouwmeester in a package?

No team is going to be able to take on over $12M in cap hit (and both players are still under contract for next year)

[Vulcan]

EDIT: plus then Glencross can get put back on the top line where he belongs. Not pushed aside to try and get Cammalleri going.. I like Cammi but im super disapointed how hes playing. Its not like he took the lockout off. He played in the Spengler Cup. Hes been skating. Hes just not getting it done. Its like hes still looking for his teeth out there.

There is some doubt as to which is the first line so far this season. I don't look at moving Glencross to play with Backlund and Stempniuk as a demotion. Glencross still got over 3 minutes more playing time than Cammallari last night.

This is how Bingo lists the lines. I'm not sure if he's putting a lot of meaning into it but it looks different than previous years when Iginla's line was automatically the #1 line.

Lines:

Glencross – Backlund – Stempniak
Cammalleri – Tanguay – Iginla
Cervenka – Stajan – Hudler
Comeau – Jones – Jackman

[Enoch Root]

The lines seem more like a 2A, 2B, 2C kind of situation this year.

However, the truth is in the TOI, IMO, as well as the PP time.

And according to them, there is no doubt that Iginla's line is still the #1

[Itse]

Bouwmeester is just starting to look good, now is not the time to trade him. Plus a defenseman is not old at 29.

[Ashasx]

First move has to be Cammalleri, you can recoup the 2nd for him at minimum if moved to a team like Dallas or Anaheim. Then you need to look at moving out Tanguay, if you can get a 2nd for him too, you could be in great shape to consider options on Iginla. If those 2 are moved, Iginla may request a trade to a contender privately. Taking the monkey off managements back so to speak.

If you make those first 2 moves, you then look at your Kipper options. If you can package Bouwmeester and Kipper for a 1st, 2nd and blue chip (Couturier type) then you look at having 2 or 3 2nds, and 2 firsts in a very deep draft. 5 or 6 top 60 picks, Resigning of Cervenka, Hudler locked up, Backlund turning the corner, Bartschi blossoming, Ramo coming over and having a camp of Ramo, Irving, Brosoit, Ortio and potentially Brust competing for Goalie duties.. I see a very bright future and quick turnaround for this team.

Making these moves are hard to consider, but its time. Im a Flames fan first and its a no brainer.

EDIT: plus then Glencross can get put back on the top line where he belongs. Not pushed aside to try and get Cammalleri going.. I like Cammi but im super disapointed how hes playing. Its not like he took the lockout off. He played in the Spengler Cup. Hes been skating. Hes just not getting it done. Its like hes still looking for his teeth out there.

I'd hope you'd get at least a 1st for Tanguay...

[dammage79]

Let's say the Flames win the lottery and pick 1st, do you trade down a spot or 2 or is there someone specific you'd want?

Probably a good thing I am not a GM, but I would take Barkov above anyone else. If I could trade down and get some additional assets to go with Barkov I would. MacKinnon would be the one I take first overall though. If that makes sense.

I take a pass on Jones. Drouin would be a nice consolation prize at the fourth pick but he is a winger and The Flames should be drafting another center in the first round regardless of where they end up picking.

[Vulcan]

The lines seem more like a 2A, 2B, 2C kind of situation this year.

However, the truth is in the TOI, IMO, as well as the PP time.

And according to them, there is no doubt that Iginla's line is still the #1

Yeah the coach is still flogging the Iginla line above others but looking at production, Tanguay (6), Iginla (4) and Cammallari (2) , total 12 points is behind Stempniak (5), Glencross (5) and Backlund (3), total 13 points. Total goals scored is even worse for the Iginla line with them having 3 goals to Glencross' line having 8 goals.

[Hatter]

If the Flames fail miserably and are way out of it by the deadline, I hope we could see a quick re-tool in time for next season.

Iginla to Pittsburgh for Despres/Pouliot, Kennedy, 1st. If they want a roster defenseman back they can have Butler too.

Cammalleri to anybody for a 1st, and we can keep some of his salary.

Trade Stajan for a pick, or buy him out if there's no suitors.

Throw money at Weiss and Filppula in the off-season, and try to re-sign Cervenka and Backlund.

Tanguay - Weiss - Baertschi/Glencross
Hudler - Cervenka - Filppula
Stempniak - Backlund - Glencross/Baertschi
Whoever - Jones - Kennedy

Bouwmeester - Giordano
Wideman - Despres
Brodie - Sarich/Smith

Kipper
Ramo/Irving

Plus up to 3 first rounders in a good draft, that we can hopefully use on a Centre, Right Wing, and Defenseman.

[Itse]

The lines seem more like a 2A, 2B, 2C kind of situation this year.

However, the truth is in the TOI, IMO, as well as the PP time.

And according to them, there is no doubt that Iginla's line is still the #1

Hudler was second in icetime after Iginla for forwards against Chicago. Then Tanguay, Glencross, Cervenka, all 20+. Not a huge difference.

Stempniak and Cammalleri had ~18, Stajan and Backlund had ~15. Jackman-Jones-Comeau got ~5.

Sounds okay to me, especially considering that Iginla is one of the bigger bodies we have to put out there.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Standing Pat for Nat(e)?

[IgiTang]

Bouwmeester is just starting to look good, now is not the time to trade him. Plus a defenseman is not old at 29.

Jay Bouwmeester @ $6.68M cap hit playing 24 mins a game, getting slightly less shifts than Giordano and just slightly more than Wideman, make him expendable in my opinion.

With Brodie being able to skate very well and move the puck wisely and wideman being easily our best defender. Finding a more physical and cost effective defenceman while adding a top 60 pick, would be a smart move.

Remember to sell high, and this is about as high as Bouw will get. Im not saying hes useless. Just not cost effective and we could turn one asset in to plenty.

Dont forget, He whiffed the puck while trying to make a routine up and out and then let Statsny go to the front on the game winner against Colorado.

he has shown moments of brilliance, but hes also shown moments of same ol' same ol'.

[IgiTang]

I'd hope you'd get at least a 1st for Tanguay...

You would be doing just that, Hoping. To a contender, perhaps a first. But I think a 2nd and a serviceable young roster player is more likely. But then again, what is more valuable? I would think if you can get a NHL ready young player and a 2nd, thats a win win in this draft. Better than a 20-30 first IMO.

[Tinordi]

Doubtful Tanguay gets you a first rounder.

[Vinny01]

If the Flames are out I would want the following players shopped:
Iginla
Bouwmeester
Kipper
Cammy


Guys I would keep would be the Czechs, Gio, Glencross, Tanguay

Now everyone would have a price but you can't totally burn it to the ground or you end up like the Oil. You need good vets around and Tangs, Glennie, Gio all have good contracts. Wideman, Hudler are likely going nowhere and Cervenka is an intriguing player they can keep after the season. Backlund, Sven, Brodie also shouldn't be moved

[Ashasx]

Doubtful Tanguay gets you a first rounder.

How not?

Tanguay has averaged a 67 point pace the last 2 seasons. He is absolutely the kind of player that gets you a 1st rounder. Gaustad got a first. Fisher got a first.

You get 2nd rounders for players like Stempniak.

What kind of 67 point player doesn't get you a 1st round pick?

[IgiTang]

How not?

Tanguay has averaged a 67 point pace the last 2 seasons. He is absolutely the kind of player that gets you a 1st rounder.

You get 2nd rounders for players like Stempniak.

Consistancy issues. His time in Montreal and Tampa hurt him IMO.

[Ashasx]

Consistancy issues. His time in Montreal and Tampa hurt him IMO.

How did his time in Montreal hurt him? Only the ignorant believe that.

Tanguay was on a point/game pace before he got injured in Montreal. He returned and was not 100%.

And yeah, he had a bad season in Tampa. One bad season in his career. Looks to me like it had more to do with being on an awful team with an awful coach.

If Tanguay doesn't get you a 1st round pick, I'll eat my shoe.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Standing Pat for Nat(e)?

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/943/turrible.jpg

[magicpixels]

You don't blow it up. There are a key few select players you trade and JBO Isn't one.

You'd be looking at Kiper, Iggy and possibly Cammy.

I'm highly doubtful we get a 1st round pick for Cammy with the way he's playing.

I trade Iginla to Philly to hopefully get somebody like Schenn back. They are going to be desperate soon enough to make deals to make the playoffs.

Trade Kipper to Toronto, NYI or even washington for a 1st plus prospects.

People need to lose the emotional value of some players. Iggy's time has come and gone. I can just see it when he's 38 years old and we all still expect the guy to score 30 goals.

I said this before I say it again. Good chance we are 10-14 points out by February 15th at which point management should start to get serious.

[CliffFletcher]

How not?

Tanguay has averaged a 67 point pace the last 2 seasons. He is absolutely the kind of player that gets you a 1st rounder. Gaustad got a first. Fisher got a first.

You get 2nd rounders for players like Stempniak.

What kind of 67 point player doesn't get you a 1st round pick?

A 34-year-old who has a one-dimensional game. And those 67 points are playing first line minutes on a line with Iginla. There are very few teams in the league where a 35-36 year old Tanguay slots into the top line.

[OzSome]

Any fan who wants to lose is no fan at all.

I totally agree 100%. I dont care how $h1*** your team, tanking is not acceptable and unprofessional. If i am paying big bucks to watch the game, i would be so unhappy and will demand a refund. Flames organization have more class than that..

[Ashasx]

A 34-year-old who has a one-dimensional game. And those 67 points are playing first line minutes on a line with Iginla. There are very few teams in the league where a 35-36 year old Tanguay slots into the top line.

Tanguay kills penalties and is just fine defensively. He's not a stud, but no, he's not a liability.

He could easily line up anywhere in the Penguins top 6 and produce at a point per game rate.

[magicpixels]

A 34-year-old who has a one-dimensional game. And those 67 points are playing first line minutes on a line with Iginla. There are very few teams in the league where a 35-36 year old Tanguay slots into the top line.

Really?

Iginla - Briere - Giroux

Hartness - Courtier - Tanguay

Again it's an upgrade for Philly. It's been pointed out by a few analysts now that after Giroux it thins out. If we can get Schenn + back I would trade Iggy and Tangs to them.

C'mon people really look at it from the outside.

Trade 4 big salaries in Iggy, Cammy, Kipper, Tangs. Frees up boat loads of cap space. We get a top 4 or top 5 pick to get a stud prospect, get at least one or two stud prospects back from trades.

Off season we have the money to go out and say sign somebody like Getzlaf who has Calgary connections.

We do this and our rebuild is a lot shorter than the pain we've seen in Edmonton, NYI, CBJ, Florida, etc.

[magicpixels]

I totally agree 100%. I dont care how $h1*** your team, tanking is not acceptable and unprofessional. If i am paying big bucks to watch the game, i would be so unhappy and will demand a refund. Flames organization have more class than that..

It's not tanking. You don't expect every team every year to compete. I look at it from an outside perspective and try to look at the greater picture from the organization standpoint.

Ask yourself do you want a decade of pain like we had during the young guns era or do you want to try and do a quick and less painful mini reload of players.

[moon]

Really?

Iginla - Briere - Giroux

Hartness - Courtier - Tanguay

Again it's an upgrade for Philly. It's been pointed out by a few analysts now that after Giroux it thins out. If we can get Schenn + back I would trade Iggy and Tangs to them.

Is Philly now allowed to ignore the cap?

Even with Pronger out that is a huge cap hit for them to take.

I think Tanguay isn't likely to get a first back because as someone (opendoor?) mentioned in another thread 1st's aren't deal at the trade deadline nearly as much as they are on internet message boards and his big cap hit will be tough to fit into to teams caps without giving back a player so more likely he is dealt for a younger roster player in my view.

[magicpixels]

They'd need to move 1 player to facilitate it. Don't forget with the new CBA rules I'm pretty sure the flames are allowed to eat a portion of the cap hit.

Either way it would be a darn good fit in Philly.

They also have a surplus of good centermen. I would take either Courturier or Schenn in a heart beat.

[magicpixels]

I should say I don't think it matters as the management and ownership group are too blind to make such a bold move. They'd rather keep signing fringe players year after year hoping it's going to make a substantial difference in the end result.

I'd love to see them do a small rebuild by trading the core players as I think we need a new core and a fresh start.

Does the management have what it takes to do it?

I don't think so.

[JiriHrdina]

I don't think you get either of the Philly's young centres.

[Vinny01]

I think you keep Tangs. He is a good vet and on a nice contract. flames might have to eat cap on trading Bouwmeester, Cammy, Iggy or Kipper but those are the 4 you shop in addition to Stempniak, Sarich, Stajan, Butler in hopes of getting later round picks.

My attempt at deadline:

Iggy + Sarich + Butler for Schenn brothers (Flames eat $3M in cap)
Stempniak to the Pens for a 2nd
Kipper+Smith to Chi for Leddy+1st
Bouwmeester to the Wings for 1st+Abdelkader
Cammy to ? 2nd+prospect

[Laner99]

Trade iggy. Get a good pick this year and start a rebuild. I dont think the rebuild would be long as this team has some structure but now is the time to get value for iggy (if we still can). Lets be honest based on this yrs start losing iggy won't hurt this team as bad as people think. He's aging, he's slowing, and he has yet to score. Time to move on.

[boggledepot]

I should say I don't think it matters as the management and ownership group are too blind to make such a bold move. They'd rather keep signing fringe players year after year hoping it's going to make a substantial difference in the end result.

I'd love to see them do a small rebuild by trading the core players as I think we need a new core and a fresh start.

Does the management have what it takes to do it?

I don't think so.

Well... It is their company and they are free to run it as they see fit; they stand to have the most to gain with this team, and the most to lose. As a customer we are perfectly well within our right to complain, then take our money, our time, and our passion elsewhere.

Truth be told, and it sorta sucks, but our opinions are utterly insignificant and don't make the slightest bit of difference. Welcome back fans eh?

[Trailer Fire]

I know Glencross is on one of the leagues best contracts, but do you think that could help net Calgary something good in return? Would his contract up his value enough to make it worth trading him?

[nik-]

Glencross wouldn't waive his NMC. It was a pretty major factor in his dollar value. I think even asking him would cause him to play pouty.

[Trailer Fire]

Glencross wouldn't waive his NMC. It was a pretty major factor in his dollar value. I think even asking him would cause him to play pouty.

Eight I forgot about that. Bah I like Glencross on the Flames anyways. I'd hate to see him go.

[Geeoff]

If Iggy and Kipper keep playing like they have this year, you might improve the team by trading them...

[boggledepot]

I know Glencross is on one of the leagues best contracts, but do you think that could help net Calgary something good in return? Would his contract up his value enough to make it worth trading him?

Maybe. But then you would have the reputation of moving a player who took a significant hometown discount. Might hurt in the long run. Tough to sign or resign quality players when they are uncertain if they'll be dangled as trade bait.

[magicpixels]

I don't think Chicago would trade Leddy for Kipper even straight up. Leddy likely has one of the highest stocks amongst NHL defencemen at the moment.

The Schenn brothers would be our best bet to chase after. I think you are hard pressed to get both unless you are giving up Iggy and Kipper and swallowing the buyout on Bryzgalov.

[Vinny01]

I don't think Chicago would trade Leddy for Kipper even straight up. Leddy likely has one of the highest stocks amongst NHL defencemen at the moment.

The Schenn brothers would be our best bet to chase after. I think you are hard pressed to get both unless you are giving up Iggy and Kipper and swallowing the buyout on Bryzgalov.

Really? He is their #5 dman I didn't think he had that much value

I think Luke Schenn has minimal value at the moment but I would like to have the brothers on the same team

Braydon is developing as a winger now as well is he not?

[Ashasx]

Brayden Schenn really isn't that impressive. He's just as overhyped as his brother was.

[magicpixels]

Leddy has huge stock. HUGE.

21 year old Dman with Top pairing potential that is an absolute stud right now.

[Heavy Jack]

^^^ Wow, I'd almost be tempted to do that deal and hang on to Ilya before buying him out, at least for a little bit.

To CGY:
Bryzgalof
Schenn
Schenn
1st

To PHI:
Iginla
Kipper
Butler
3rd

Tanguay - Schenn - Cammalleri
Glencross - Cervenka - Hudler

Bouw / Gio
Wideman / Schenn

The center situation looks better and Cammy replaces the gun on the right side that we lose in Iggy. Going forward we would have to look at options to regenerate the talent on the right side as Calgary is left-wing heavy going into next years off-season -- Cammy/Tanguay/Glencross/Baertschi.

[Roof-Daddy]

What a rape of a trade that was by Bowman.

(The Leddy trade)

[Heavy Jack]

Brayden Schenn really isn't that impressive. He's just as overhyped as his brother was.

While I do agree he that he has yet to show the same kind of flash that he did as a junior and that he is a bit of a let down so far much like Luke he still did have a great showing in the playoffs last year and is a big-bodied center that could slot in as our top guy right now. If Iginla and Kipper get you a potential top 6 center, a top 5 D and a replacement #1 I think you at least have consider it.

[Flash Walken]

What a rape of a trade that was by Bowman.

(The Leddy trade)

Sold high in barker.

[Heavy Jack]

What a rape of a trade that was by Bowman.

(The Leddy trade)

Cam Barker never lived up to his billing, a really bad trade right now for Minny when you consider a Suter/Leddy pairing.

[Ashasx]

While I do agree he that he has yet to show the same kind of flash that he did as a junior and that he is a bit of a let down so far much like Luke he still did have a great showing in the playoffs last year and is a big-bodied center that could slot in as our top guy right now. If Iginla and Kipper get you a potential top 6 center, a top 5 D and a replacement #1 I think you at least have consider it.

No, I agree with you.

I'm just saying that Brayden Schenn shouldn't be the untouchable phenom the media (WJCs) has hyped him to be. If Iginla couldn't land value of Brayden Schenn, I really don't think the Flames benefit much from trading him.

[Vinny01]

While I do agree he that he has yet to show the same kind of flash that he did as a junior and that he is a bit of a let down so far much like Luke he still did have a great showing in the playoffs last year and is a big-bodied center that could slot in as our top guy right now. If Iginla and Kipper get you a potential top 6 center, a top 5 D and a replacement #1 I think you at least have consider it.

I do the trade but do not take Bryz back. Just eat as much of Iggy and Kippers cap hit we can per the new cba

I also am not sure about both Iggy and Kipper for the Schenns I think we should get more in return and trade them separately

[magicpixels]

I do the trade but do not take Bryz back. Just eat as much of Iggy and Kippers cap hit we can per the new cba

I also am not sure about both Iggy and Kipper for the Schenns I think we should get more in return and trade them separately

I'd agree personally. There are teams with more to give that are in need of of a star goalie. I think the flames could chase Griffin Reinhart if the stars aligned. I dont think Nabokov is the answer for the Islanders. Snow is not a super intelligent GM so I could see us possibly working a deal.

[$ven27]

I'd agree personally. There are teams with more to give that are in need of of a star goalie. I think the flames could chase Griffin Reinhart if the stars aligned. I dont think Nabokov is the answer for the Islanders. Snow is not a super intelligent GM so I could see us possibly working a deal.

I'd love Reinhart, however Kipper is only 1 year younger then Nabokov and he's been playing great for the Islanders so there's no way it would work.

[Heavy Jack]

I think if you look at possible spots for Kipper the following teams come to mind:

Washington -- Though their window to stay competitive this year is closing quickly
Chicago -- Crawford is playing lights out right now but I still think they would be interested in a year of Kipper
Philly -- Obviously though they aren't the most attractive destination to be dealing a goalie to as Ilya would automatically be part of the discussion

Really I think the Flames need to jump on dealing their stars while they can and should be actively shopping Kipper to contenders looking for a #1. I know we aren't out of the playoffs at all right now and it's still young in the season but I don't want to see the Flames stuck in 9th-12th limbo again with out dealing any of their assets for a 4th straight year.

[moon]

I'd agree personally. There are teams with more to give that are in need of of a star goalie. I think the flames could chase Griffin Reinhart if the stars aligned. I dont think Nabokov is the answer for the Islanders. Snow is not a super intelligent GM so I could see us possibly working a deal.

Doesn't Kipper have a NTC?

Can't see him waiving it to go to NYI.

[Ashasx]

Kipper's NTC expired during the summer.

[Vinny01]

Do the deals at the deadline when apparently the sellers will outweigh the buyers. 10+ teams will bid on Iggy and 4-5 teams will want Kipper. Bouwmeester will also command a decent return if he keeps playing this way

[Roof-Daddy]

Question....and this is coming from a guy who had finally had about enough of Bouwmeester after the first couple games this season......but if he keeps playing like this under Hartley, and ends up finally being what we thought we were getting three years ago, do we want to trade him still?

It's not like he's old, 29 is pretty good age for a d-man, and if he is a legitimate #1 in Hartley's system it might be a good idea to hang on to him no?

[moon]

Question....and this is coming from a guy who had finally had about enough of Bouwmeester after the first couple games this season......but if he keeps playing like this under Hartley, and ends up finally being what we thought we were getting three years ago, do we want to trade him still?

It's not like he's old, 29 is pretty good age for a d-man, and if he is a legitimate #1 in Hartley's system it might be a good idea to hang on to him no?

I would say that nobody over 25 should be untouchable and many under should be up for grabs as well but if he continues his play he certainly goes from a get the most you can to keep him if the offers aren't good enough.

[Flash Walken]

Question....and this is coming from a guy who had finally had about enough of Bouwmeester after the first couple games this season......but if he keeps playing like this under Hartley, and ends up finally being what we thought we were getting three years ago, do we want to trade him still?

It's not like he's old, 29 is pretty good age for a d-man, and if he is a legitimate #1 in Hartley's system it might be a good idea to hang on to him no?

If bouwmeester, over the next 15 games to 20 games, plays himself back into league wide desirable first pairing defender, you absolutely move him. Same goes for Giordano.

You want to be on the good side of barker trades, you don't want to be the guy holding the bag when a player or contract starts to stink.

[magicpixels]

Nabokov hasn't really been good. If they had a Kipper that's posting his standard sub 2.50 numbers the Islanders are easily in the playoffs. Nabokov's numbers at the moment are just average at best. Problem is anybody right now looking to acquire kipper is doing so based upon last years numbers and not this years.

I really wouldn't trade JBO. Who are you going to find to replace a 25-30 minute a night guy? Right now it's nice to have three good guys that can play those 25 minutes for you. It gives you a nice foundation.

I really don't think trading Iggy and Kipper will hamstring us too much. There are other teams doing more with much less than we have.

If you overlay Iginla's goal production from the past 3 seasons and put it over this season he is likely to score 13 goals at the moment. I hate using numbers like that but its always worked against him on the early going in the season. I just cant see 13-15 goals being worth keeping him.

[Sylvanfan]

Do the deals at the deadline when apparently the sellers will outweigh the buyers. 10+ teams will bid on Iggy and 4-5 teams will want Kipper. Bouwmeester will also command a decent return if he keeps playing this way

Teams aren't trying to find starting goaltenders to get to the playoffs very often at the deadline. They're usually looking for backups as injury insurance. Dwayne Roloson and Cristobal Huet are the last two starters moved to contenders. I guess Theodore moved to Colorado back in 06 too. Non playoff teams looking for future answers like Ottawa with Anderson, and Dallas with Lehtonen are every bit as likely trade suitors.

[Frequitude]

This season is playing out perfect for a rebuild. We keep losing and we're exciting to watch.

[kyuss275]

Do the deals at the deadline when apparently the sellers will outweigh the buyers. 10+ teams will bid on Iggy and 4-5 teams will want Kipper. Bouwmeester will also command a decent return if he keeps playing this way


I would not doubt that 10 + teams would want Iggy. The problem is, how many teams would be on Iggy's list to trade?

[89revival]

So.....month and a half later.....who's into this idea now? The team has performed pretty well exactly as i figured.....trade the aging assets? Or stay the dreadful course....