Three Years Ago Today: The Dion goes to TO

[JazzyFlame]

January 31st, 2010 is when we witnessed:

The Calgary Flames have traded defenceman Dion Phaneuf (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=dion+phaneuf), forward Fredrik Sjostrom (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=fredrik+sjostrom), and prospect defenceman Keith Aulie (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=keith+aulie) to the Toronto Maple Leafs in exchange for forwards Matt Stajan (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=matt+stajan), Niklas Hagman (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=niklas+hagman), Jamal Mayers (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=jamal+mayers) and defenceman Ian White (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/?name=ian+white).

I still don't know what to make of this trade.

[Igster]

Worst trade ever.

[troutman]

Good riddance.

[Komskies]

I remember the CP servers blowing up as thousands of people tried to get into the thread.

[Captain Hair]

Not sure what to make of it either, although it was interesting to see the media go from slagging Dion to making him out to be the next coming of Gilmour/Sundin, etc.

Might as well have traded him for a bag of cheezies for all good the other pieces did for us.

[Tinordi]

Sutter legacy forever tarnished.

[kyuss275]

horrible horrible trade!!!!!

Add to the fact that a trade as bad, if not worse, was made a couple of days later.

That entire week set the franchise back big time.

[Bowvechkin]

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/17859_332999454128_3781670_n.jpg

[JazzyFlame]

In turn, the Ian White trade did land us both Tommy K. (who was very servicble) and Anton Babchuk.

[Muffins]

We got Matt "fricken" Stajan and the Leafs got someone to change the stereo in their locker room.
In the end both teams benefited and went on to make deep runs in the playoffs and continue to have success........oh wait......

[polak]

It was a horrible trade.

3 of those players are gone and the other is absolutely horrible. We gained absolutely nothing and lost our biggest trade bait.

It was the first sign that Sutter had lost his mind as a GM and probably the worst moment for the Flames in the last 10 years.

[Caged Great]

A trade where both teams lost and both have suffered with boat anchor contracts as a result

[GirlySports]

It was a good trade in that we traded away a terrible defenseman who can't turn right.

However, we should have gotten more since we knew he was a problem before anyone else did. At least create a bidding war, not trade in the dark.

[Tinordi]

A trade where both teams lost and both have suffered with boat anchor contracts as a result

Nobody held a gun to Sutter's head to sign Stajan.

[The Fonz]

Wish Sutter had just given him to the Leafs for free. The garbage we got in return has been a plague.

[Erick Estrada]

I remember that day I started a "Sutter get's fleeced by Burke" thread that was locked and the reasoning was that it was too early to tell. To counter I will say that you could tell that very day that it was not a good trade for the Calgary Flames and as time has passed it will go down as the 2nd worst trade in the history of the Franchise. It's not that Dion is an all-star but the fact is he was worth at the time a lot more than what the Flames got in return which as a bunch of roster players Burke didn't even want. Should have been a first round pick and or top prospect at the very least that could have been a contributor for this team today. I mean look what Burke got for Luke Schenn and Phaneuf was at the time of the trade much more regarded.

[Muffins]

Nobody held a gun to Sutter's head to sign Stajan.

You can say that for sure. For all we know, Stajan coulda been packin heat going into contract negotiations.

[Roof-Daddy]

Should have traded Dion about 6 months sooner, during the summer of 2009, for blue chip prospects and/or high draft picks.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda......

[foofighter15]

Nobody held a gun to Sutter's head to sign Stajan.
Nope, but he sure put it up to his own head with that deal

[Street Pharmacist]

While Darryl could have got more for Dion, if you pick winners/losers based on who got better from the trade it's kind of a wash. In fact, I would say that it's turned out a lot worse for toronto than almost anyone imagined

[You Need a Thneed]

Gave up nothing, got nothing back. By definition, trade can't really be good or bad.

[868904]

That was the problem with Darryl. He didn't care about market value, he only cared about Darryl value. He was probably right about Dion's true worth.

[Flabbibulin]

Absolutely awful trade. Honestly. You would think a team that has an awful draft history, very little success in the regular season for quite some time, very few prospects, and a somewhat bleak future, would know better than to accept the offer.

I can't believe the Leafs did this...

[_Q_]

Funny thing is, every single player in that trade is a horrible hockey player. Both teams just sort of swapped garbage, but only the Leafs made their garbage the captain. At least Stajan is a half decent 3rd line forward who can potentially get spot duty on the second line. Phaneuf is just a pylon in his own zone and can't hit the net with his "blasts" from the point.

[Erick Estrada]

While Darryl could have got more for Dion, if you pick winners/losers based on who got better from the trade it's kind of a wash. In fact, I would say that it's turned out a lot worse for toronto than almost anyone imagined

I simply don't understand this type of reasoning. Phaneuf hasn't been lights out in Toronto but he's become their #1 defenseman and captain. Any time you can get your #1 defenseman for a bag of pucks in a trade you are a winner. He may not be living up to his potential but the fact is he's still the best they have at the moment.

[AltaGuy]

We could've and should've and would've gotten better.

In the end, however, good riddance.

[Jbo]

Hindsight is that neither team really benefited from the Trade.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

No other way to explain it, outside of any player analysis, you just had this horrible feeling in your gut that day. Maybe it had nothing to do with the actual trade, but for me anyway, that the fact the trade needed to happen signified the expiry of the Flames as we knew it, and that we really had to accept that the momentum from 04 was over, and we truly had to admit that the experiment had failed and the window officially closed on that version of the Flames.

[kyuss275]

While Darryl could have got more for Dion, if you pick winners/losers based on who got better from the trade it's kind of a wash. In fact, I would say that it's turned out a lot worse for toronto than almost anyone imagined


I don't see how it's a wash. Dion still has some trade value. Stajan has 0 trade value and could be a candidate for a buy out. Flames had to pay half of Hagmans salary just to leave.

If Toronto had not put the C on Dion and moved him to a 30 minute a night player, they would have won this deal hands down.

[edn88]

I have so moved on from The DION and the TRADE and really don't think it is productive to keep crying over spilled milk (yes - there should have been more return on the trade, and Sutter was not the best GM in the world).

[_Q_]

I simply don't understand this type of reasoning. Phaneuf hasn't been lights out in Toronto but he's become their #1 defenseman and captain. Any time you can get your #1 defenseman for a bag of pucks in a trade you are a winner. He may not be living up to his potential but the fact is he's still the best they have at the moment.

That doesn't make sense. Why don't the Flames make Derek Smith the captain and play him 25 minutes a game? That way we can laugh at the Senators for letting him sign with us.

[JazzyFlame]

Last (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_NHL_season) year he was 12th for points or 9th in goals by defence men, that is good in my books.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

That doesn't make sense. Why don't the Flames make Derek Smith the captain and play him 25 minutes a game? That way we can laugh at the Senators for letting him sign with us.
Example of hyperbole hurting your position.

[djsFlames]

Such a waste....

At least Dion could do some good here, having the likes of a Regehr to cover his back end. In Toronto there's no one to cover for his defensive woes. When that good ol' slapper was working for him, it was a big part of the team and the PP. Though we can't forget that his play was going south a bit towards the end, likely Sutter's sad excuse for dumping him as quickly as he could (worry of trade value) Damn it, Darryl. The things that could have been if you just stayed out of the GMs office..

On another note.. g'damn time goes by way too fast.

[Caged Great]

Last (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_NHL_season) year he was 12th for points or 9th in goals by defence men, that is good in my books.

Wideman scored 1 less and had 3 more assists last year and is in the same ballpark defensively. He has been basically replaced

[Erick Estrada]

That doesn't make sense. Why don't the Flames make Derek Smith the captain and play him 25 minutes a game? That way we can laugh at the Senators for letting him sign with us.

Except the Leafs are doing it on merit and not to make the Flames look bad. Talk about not making sense.:bag:

[moon]

That doesn't make sense. Why don't the Flames make Derek Smith the captain and play him 25 minutes a game? That way we can laugh at the Senators for letting him sign with us.

Sure if Derek Smith can also add 44 points to those 25 minutes maybe.

I know overblowing Dion's supposed terrible defense is the cool thing for many here but it isn't like he is adding nothing to the Leafs team. He was one of the top scorers for defenseman last year, still can play physical and is a decent player defensively. If he were on the Flames right now he would be the 3rd best defenseman (maybe second if Giordano keeps playing like this or 1st if people want to hate on Bouwmeester like they do.)

[JazzyFlame]

Wideman scored 1 less and had 3 more assists last year and is in the same ballpark defensively. He has been basically replaced


or could've had:

Phaneuf - Regher
Jbo - Wideman
Gio - Brodie

[Red_Baron]

I still like Darryl as one of the greatest coaches this team has ever had but I'm still bitter about his 1 week of insanity.

The worst part is that Prust never was re-acquired. He's a bit overpriced these days but I guess that it is hard to place a true value on his competitiveness, this team sorely misses a player like that.

[GirlySports]

Phaneuf - Regher first pairing would be a disaster.
Regher's game has gone down since the new rules were enforced. Buffalo isn't happy with him either.

When Ryan Miller is off just a little bit, the Sabres don't win.

[blankall]

Should have traded Dion about 6 months sooner, during the summer of 2009, for blue chip prospects and/or high draft picks.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda......

Disagree.

You have to remember the excitement after the JBo signing. It looked like we had 3 potential Team Canada level defencemen: JBo, Phanuef, and Regehr. They all excelled, and were potentially the best, at a different area of the game.

Who could've predicted that the NHL had passed Regehr by, JBo offence woud fall off, and Phaneuf would be exposed for the total bonehead he is.

That being said, even at the end of the season when Phaneuf was traded, he could have been packaged for a solid young offensive forward. A much better way to add "depth" than 2 middle of the road forwards. We weren't going to trade Phaneuf for picks and prospects as we were in "Win now" mode.

Phaneuf at that point could have easily brought back a JVR, Chris Stewart, or James Neal type of player, and maybe some change too. Phaneuf was no longer the type of player who would've brought back Patrick Kane, but we could have done much better than Stajan and Hagman....Sutter was just too focussed on having more experience and "character" in the lineup. The formula had worked when we brought in Nilson, Nieminem, Simon, etc...Very poor judgement by Sutter.

[$ven27]

Our team could be completely different if we didn't trade him for basically crap. I remember hearing reports that a lot of GM's didn't even know he was available. I also remember a Philly report saying they might have been willing to deal Jeff Carter or Richards for Phaneuf.
But, I suppose we wouldn't have Sven or Gaudreau (most likely) if we got a different deal.

[afc wimbledon]

IMHO the problem with the trade was not so much the return or results, the fact that Sutter realised he needed to move Dion was just a sign that the team needed a full top down rebuild.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but at that point if Sutter felt he needed to move Dion Iggy and Kipper should have gone to.

[North East Goon]

I remeber Darryl sutter being spotted at a Flyers game with Holmgren just a few days before this deal went down. He must not have liked what Holmgren was offering. The only way to rationalize it was Darryl panicked.

[Bertuzzied]

The Anton is greater than The Dion.

Stajan sucks though so the trade is a wash.

[Tinordi]

Should have started the rebuild three years ago, instead we've still be out of the playoffs for three years with nothing to show for it.

[AltaGuy]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but at that point if Sutter felt he needed to move Dion Iggy and Kipper should have gone to.

I still wake up in cold sweats thinking about how Darryl Sutter could've mangled trading Kipper or Iggy.

"The Calgary Flames have traded Jarome Iginla to Pittsburgh for Kunitz, some fourth liner, and a 3rd round pick."

[Joborule]

Leafs didn't get what they wanted, so it was a loss for both. But considering what they gave up to get Phaneuf, it isn't that much of a loss. They're getting the worth they gave up.

[Bertuzzied]

Should have started the rebuild three years ago, instead we've still be out of the playoffs for three years with nothing to show for it.

blah blah blah.

We got to watch meaningful hockey for those 3 years. Which is better than 1 meaningful day in June.

[timbit]

Disagree.

You have to remember the excitement after the JBo signing. It looked like we had 3 potential Team Canada level defencemen: JBo, Phanuef, and Regehr. They all excelled, and were potentially the best, at a different area of the game.

Who could've predicted that the NHL had passed Regehr by, JBo offence woud fall off, and Phaneuf would be exposed for the total bonehead he is.

That being said, even at the end of the season when Phaneuf was traded, he could have been packaged for a solid young offensive forward. A much better way to add "depth" than 2 middle of the road forwards. We weren't going to trade Phaneuf for picks and prospects as we were in "Win now" mode.

Phaneuf at that point could have easily brought back a JVR, Chris Stewart, or James Neal type of player, and maybe some change too. Phaneuf was no longer the type of player who would've brought back Patrick Kane, but we could have done much better than Stajan and Hagman....Sutter was just too focussed on having more experience and "character" in the lineup. The formula had worked when we brought in Nilson, Nieminem, Simon, etc...Very poor judgement by Sutter.

Still not convinced that Sutter was totally to blame for the return the Flames received. Various King comments and the ownership's mandate to be a playoff team superceding intermediate and longterm growth probably had some significant impact.

[AR_Six]

Should have started the rebuild three years ago, instead we've still be out of the playoffs for three years with nothing to show for it.
Or as Downgoesbrown posted yesterday in their "NHL Panic Watch" column,

Calgary Flames

Why it might be time to panic: Well, if we’re getting technical, 2009 was the time to panic. But for reasons nobody outside of the Flames organization has ever understood, the franchise refuses to rebuild and seems intent on yet another season as a bubble team — not quite good enough for the playoffs, but not quite bad enough for a top pick. Ask a Leafs fan how that strategy works out, if you can find one sober enough to communicate.
Why they shouldn’t: Not a single team in the Northwest went into Monday night’s action over .500, so it’s not like the division is running away from them. And Jarome Iginla’s been ice-cold to start the year, which can’t last much longer.
The panic scale: 9/10 if you’re a fan, but apparently 1/10 if you’re the front office.
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/49093/nhl-panic-watch

[Tinordi]

blah blah blah.

We got to watch meaningful hockey for those 3 years. Which is better than 1 meaningful day in June.
What a effin joke this sentiment is.

Meaningful games? Are you kidding me?

This is how deluded we've become as a fan base?

[AR_Six]

This is how deluded we've become as a fan base?
Look at whose post you just quoted.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

blah blah blah.

We got to watch meaningful hockey for those 3 years. Which is better than 1 meaningful day in June.
We did?

[Bertuzzied]

What a effin joke this sentiment is.

Meaningful games? Are you kidding me?

This is how deluded we've become as a fan base?

I'm glad you are no longer pretending to be a Flames fan. I'd rather be fighting for a playoff spot than wanting to lose to get a high draft pick.

Besides any other coach other than Sutter would have gotten us into the playoffs.

[Bertuzzied]

Look at whose post you just quoted.

Figures. One canuck fan sticking up for another.

Can't wait for you to disappear into your easter break.

[Bertuzzied]

We did?

So you didn't watch one single game from game 65 to game 81 last year?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I'm glad you are no longer pretending to be a Flames fan. I'd rather be fighting for a playoff spot than wanting to lose to get a high draft pick.

Besides any other coach other than Sutter would have gotten us into the playoffs.
The point being, exactly how engaged we were in those playoff battles is pretty subjective. The Flames have "realistically" fallen out of the playoff picture far to early for my liking to feel the way you do. Needing to string together long win streaks that the team has not shown the propensity to be able to do down the home stretch doesn't translate to true meaningful games to me.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

So you didn't watch one single game from game 65 to game 81 last year?
I did, I bet a lot of Oilers fans did to.

[Tinordi]

I'm glad you are no longer pretending to be a Flames fan. I'd rather be fighting for a playoff spot than wanting to lose to get a high draft pick.

Besides any other coach other than Sutter would have gotten us into the playoffs.
Respectfully, go screw yourself. Just because I'm critical of the organization doesn't make me any less of a fan.

Infact, I could turn the tables on you and question your loyalty. What do you really care about? I care about winning a cup, you seem to care about not being the Oilers so you can continue on your petty, insignificant, unfunny rival-based taunts. I think it's all that much more pathetic that that's what you seem to care about instead of the ultimate prize.

So who's the real fan?

[Doug_Dadswell]

Surprised that there is no mention of Keith Aulie in this thread. He was the best player in the deal.

[AltaGuy]

We would've easily made the playoffs last season had we been successful in acquiring Brad Richards, which would've made Feaster look like a genius given how our prospects have improved at the same time.

A scorched earth policy like the dummies up North is not a good or feasible way to rebuild, despite what many pundits would have us believe.

[Tinordi]

Surprised that there is no mention of Keith Aulie in this thread. He was the best player in the deal.
Prepare to be mooned

[CaptainCrunch]

Our team could be completely different if we didn't trade him for basically crap. I remember hearing reports that a lot of GM's didn't even know he was available. I also remember a Philly report saying they might have been willing to deal Jeff Carter or Richards for Phaneuf.
But, I suppose we wouldn't have Sven or Gaudreau (most likely) if we got a different deal.


I've never bought that for two reasons, one is basically that it was Francis writing that column and we all know that he's pretty much hated the Flames since they didn't treat him like the second coming of someone that's good at their job.

As some of the better reporters have stated, GM's will always feign shock and disbelief at trades and swear they didn't know that player X was available or they would have paid lots more to get him, it a way of protecting their jobs.

I have a lot of problems with any story that comes from the desk of Francis.

[dino7c]

Leafs media and fans have only now realized Dion sucks

[Bertuzzied]

I did, I bet a lot of Oilers fans did to.

I wouldn't. Why waste 2.5 to 3 hours watching a laughing stock of a team? I have better things to do.

Which brings me to, thanking Brent Sutter for giving me so much free time in April, May and June these past 3 years.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

We would've easily made the playoffs last season had we been successful in acquiring Brad Richards, which would've made Feaster look like a genius given how our prospects have improved at the same time.

A scorched earth policy like the dummies up North is not a good or feasible way to rebuild, despite what many pundits would have us believe.

What the hell? We would have easily made the playoffs had we acquired Sidney Crosby as well? What the heck is your point? The Oilers could play the list players we don't have on our roster that would push us into the playoffs to justify their strategy game too! So bizarre.

[GirlySports]

Should have started the rebuild three years ago, instead we've still be out of the playoffs for three years with nothing to show for it.

We're making the playoffs this year!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I wouldn't. Why waste 2.5 to 3 hours watching a laughing stock of a team? I have better things to do.

Which brings me to, thanking Brent Sutter for giving me so much free time in April, May and June these past 3 years.
So, you'll be jumping off the Flames bandwagon if we finish in last place..... Good to know.

[Resolute 14]

Our team could be completely different if we didn't trade him for basically crap. I remember hearing reports that a lot of GM's didn't even know he was available. I also remember a Philly report saying they might have been willing to deal Jeff Carter or Richards for Phaneuf.
But, I suppose we wouldn't have Sven or Gaudreau (most likely) if we got a different deal.

I've always questioned how much of those stories came from "unnamed GMs" and how much was certain media types exaggerating comments to fit the commentary they themselves were running. The truth is, Phaneuf's name was linked to trade rumours for weeks. There is no way any GM worth his job wasn't aware that something was up. If they failed to make a call, that is on them, not Sutter.

As to the trade itself, my opinion then was that the best case was that it would have been an even trade. Three years later, it looks like I was right, though not in the way I hoped. Nobody on either side of the trade has done a damn thing for their new organizations. Both teams are probably worse off for it.

[Bertuzzied]

Respectfully, go screw yourself. Just because I'm critical of the organization doesn't make me any less of a fan.

Infact, I could turn the tables on you and question your loyalty. What do you really care about? I care about winning a cup, you seem to care about not being the Oilers so you can continue on your petty, insignificant, unfunny rival-based taunts. I think it's all that much more pathetic that that's what you seem to care about instead of the ultimate prize.

So who's the real fan?

hahaha. What kind of Flames fan doesn't laugh at an Oiler team finishing 30, 30, and 29??? Mind bottling.

Hmmm lots of pathetics being thrown around here. Well good luck to you cheering for the Flames because you KNOW they aren't going to rebuild through the sucking model. And there is nothing that Feaster or King has said that it's going to change anytime soon.

Maybe you should find another team to cheer for. hehe

[Bertuzzied]

So, you'll be jumping off the Flames bandwagon if we finish in last place..... Good to know.

Did i say that? Nope. i just won't be wasting my time for 2-3 hours watching meaningless games for 28th/29th place.

Maybe PVR them and fast forward watch in 45 minutes.

[AltaGuy]

What the hell? We would have easily made the playoffs had we acquired Sidney Crosby as well? What the heck is your point? The Oilers could play the list players we don't have on our roster that would push us into the playoffs to justify their strategy game too! So bizarre.

My point is that trading Iggy and Kipper, and aiming for suckage three years ago would've been a poor decision given that - in my estimation - we were one good center away from making the playoffs last season.

Not really so bizarre. Scorched earth is a poor policy, and there are ways to improve the team without it. Brad Richards is a good example, because he was an opportunity to improve the team by leaps and bounds all in one go. Our prospects have been improving incrementally despite not going full on suck.

[Enoch Root]

Phaneuf seems to have the same effect on fanbases as he has on dressing rooms.

[moon]

Surprised that there is no mention of Keith Aulie in this thread. He was the best player in the deal.

Bwhahahahahaha

[Inglewood Jack]

Surprised that there is no mention of Keith Aulie in this thread. He was the best player in the deal.

horribly enough, he might have been the least disappointing player from that deal. that's how crappy everyone else turned out.

[moon]

We would've easily made the playoffs last season had we been successful in acquiring Brad Richards, which would've made Feaster look like a genius given how our prospects have improved at the same time.

A scorched earth policy like the dummies up North is not a good or feasible way to rebuild, despite what many pundits would have us believe.

Easily made the play-offs is a huge leap and making it as a 7/8 seed and losing in 4 games certainly shouldn't have made Feaster look like a genius but the way people overrate the crap job he has done you may be right and many would have talked about him like that.

When we missed the play-offs for a majority of the time under Richards deal and been unable to sign guys to help the team because of the ridiculous overpayment it was I am not sure how much of a genius Feaster would have looked like even with the rose colored glasses of many Flames homers.

[$ven27]

I've never bought that for two reasons, one is basically that it was Francis writing that column and we all know that he's pretty much hated the Flames since they didn't treat him like the second coming of someone that's good at their job.

As some of the better reporters have stated, GM's will always feign shock and disbelief at trades and swear they didn't know that player X was available or they would have paid lots more to get him, it a way of protecting their jobs.

I have a lot of problems with any story that comes from the desk of Francis.

Ah, forgot it was a Francis piece, that changes everything.

I've always questioned how much of those stories came from "unnamed GMs" and how much was certain media types exaggerating comments to fit the commentary they themselves were running. The truth is, Phaneuf's name was linked to trade rumours for weeks. There is no way any GM worth his job wasn't aware that something was up. If they failed to make a call, that is on them, not Sutter.

As to the trade itself, my opinion then was that the best case was that it would have been an even trade. Three years later, it looks like I was right, though not in the way I hoped. Nobody on either side of the trade has done a damn thing for their new organizations. Both teams are probably worse off for it.

True, however without Phaneuf I think they'd be contending with Edmonton and Columbus. It's a shame we never got a 1st out of that deal too, could've been a top 10.

[sa226]

In my ongoing futile attempt to remain optimistic about the Flames, I remember thinking this was a "Moneyball" type trade by Sutter.

What I mean is that he wasn't looking for specific players, he was looking for certain types of players based on need.

He wanted a scoring winger to play in the top six, with the quantity that he wanted each individual would be of lesser quality. Enter Hagman.

He wanted a 2 way youngish centre to ultimately replace the ageing Langkow. Enter Stajan

With the departing Phaneuf he wanted a decent replacement to take up some of those minutes. Enter White.

And because he is Darryl Sutter he couldn't make any trade without getting some 4th liner thrown in. Enter Mayers.

At the time, I don't think it was as terrible a trade as people thought. White was playing very well in Toronto at the time, Stajan was a somewhat unproven but nonetheless 20 goal 50 point guy and Hagman was a decent 2 way 20-25 goal guy from the wing.

In Sutters' eyes he was getting 2 top 6 forwards(top nine in some peoples opinions) and 1 top 4 dman. 4 roster players in total for basically Phaneuf (ya, ya Aulie shmaulie)

Who knows if he did his due dilligence on these guys, because given what they were acquired to do, the trade was a collosal failure.

I think it was also a failure as a result of the "Win Now" mantra. We needed forward depth, so he dealt from a position of strength, and sacrificed some quality to get quantity.

If he had set out to acquire one or two quality pieces, I think we would have looked back on this trade as a "win."

[AltaGuy]

Easily made the play-offs is a huge leap and making it as a 7/8 seed and losing in 4 games certainly shouldn't have made Feaster look like a genius but the way people overrate the crap job he has done you may be right and many would have talked about him like that.

When we missed the play-offs for a majority of the time under Richards deal and been unable to sign guys to help the team because of the ridiculous overpayment it was I am not sure how much of a genius Feaster would have looked like even with the rose colored glasses of many Flames homers.

That's possible. I don't agree, but it's possible.

However, swinging for the fences on a #1 center is never a bad idea in my mind. Trading Iggy and Kipper and aiming for the basement is always a bad idea to me.

Another good reason is a simple comparison between some of Darryl Sutter's "big splashes" (and attempted ones) and the only one Feaster has tried that we know about.

Feaster: Brad Richards, who unquestionably helped the Rags a lot last season, and I think would've helped us make the playoffs.

Darryl Sutter: Bouwmeester, Jokinen, Redden, Smyth.

Thank god Sutter never got the opportunity to trade Iggy or Kipper.

[cannon7]

Worse than the Gilmour trade (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=86216)

Such a crappy time to be a Flames fan. That trade came on the heels of a ten game losing streak. It really made no sense, I now doubt that Darryl was solely behind that deal. I think ownership played a big role, I believe it when Keenan says ownership was pulling a lot of strings. Prior to the panic that season, Sutter was an ardent Phaneuf supporter.

[JiriHrdina]

I remember that day I started a "Sutter get's fleeced by Burke" thread that was locked and the reasoning was that it was too early to tell. .

Actually the reason Photon provided in the thread itself was this

"It's difficult to know how much Burke "destroyed" Sutter without knowing what else was being offered, and how much Sutter's hand was forced. "

That's a completely different reason then what you are providing. If you are going to use a locked thread as a way to tell everyone how smart you are, at least be accurate about why a mod locked a thread.

[LouCypher]

Might make some scratch there heads but I often wonder are we better off with Stajan? Would Phaneuf have a bigger impact on our lineup? Would a negative impact in the lineup with Phaneuf be better then someone like Stajan having little impact over time? I still think we got horrible value but I also think its almost going to look like a wash for both teams eventually.

[GGG]

Poor asset management starting from when we signed him long term. We should have signed him to a reasonable 3 year deal or forced him to go out and get an offer sheet and then decided if we wanted to match it.

Then when we went to trade we should have shopped him to maximize value, and focused on getting one asset back or picks and prospects. Not players which are easy to find on the free agent market. We gave up the best prospect and best player in the deal. That is never the making of a good deal.

I think I said I would wait and see how Ian White panned out before judging the deal and he turned into Babchuk a 6/7 defensemen. Trading Phaneuf was definately the right call, but they type of trade we made and the process was flawed.

Sutter's worst move as GM was firing himself as coach and becoming soley a GM.

[zamler]

Sutter legacy forever tarnished.
He engineered a Stanley Cup with the Kings and beat the lowlife diving Canucks in the process. All is forgiven in my book.
Should have started the rebuild three years ago, instead we've still be out of the playoffs for three years with nothing to show for it.
Yep. The Flames will be forced into a full on rebuild eventually, this dithering around is only delaying the inevitable.
Still not convinced that Sutter was totally to blame for the return the Flames received. Various King comments and the ownership's mandate to be a playoff team superceding intermediate and longterm growth probably had some significant impact.
I tend to agree. D. Sutter is simply too smart a hockey guy to go off the rails like he did. I really believe he was being pressured from upstairs to the point where he went against his better judgement. That doesn't absolve Darryl of all responsibility though.

[Huntingwhale]

On paper it should have been a decent trade. Pick any other team and get back 2 top-6 forwards and a top-4 defenseman and you'd think it would have been good. But of course any trade with Toronto ALWAYS works against us. Ian White actually played decent upon arrival. Stajan SHOULD have hit 50+ points. Hagman SHOULD have hit 25+ goals. In hindsight it's easy to say it was a disaster.

On paper, absolutely it should have worked out. TBH I don't' really fault Sutter at all for what happened. Just like the Jokinen and Bouwmeester arrivals, they SHOULD have worked out. I blame B.Sutter more then anything. He is the king of misusing players and trying to fit a square peg into a circle.

[Tinordi]

He engineered a Stanley Cup with the Kings and beat the lowlife diving Canucks in the process. All is forgiven in my book.

He's responsible for the state our organization is in right now, which is an utter mess, so no, not forgiven.


I tend to agree. D. Sutter is simply too smart a hockey guy to go off the rails like he did. I really believe he was being pressured from upstairs to the point where he went against his better judgement. That doesn't absolve Darryl of all responsibility though.
Agreed with that too. The trade was so bad and Sutter's history really make you wonder who was pulling the strings on that deal and subsequent franchise sinking deals that followed.

Ken Kling and Co. have gotten off with remarkably little blame.

[sa226]

I wish for the sake of peoples' health, that they would get off the "rebuild" bandwagon.

For as long as the current ownership, Feaster and King are around the flames will not be doing a full on rebuild.




I'm sure this could fit in the "unpopular opinion" thread.

[Tinordi]

I wish for the sake of peoples' health, that they would get off the "rebuild" bandwagon.

For as long as the current ownership, Feaster and King are around the flames will not be doing a full on rebuild.




I'm sure this could fit in the "unpopular opinion" thread.
Oh it's in that thread. Just search my username. ;)

[MolsonInBothHands]

I was tossed when it happened. I always had a feeling Phaneuf was a meat-head, but that was based on conjecture and rumour. I was glad he got moved out, but at the same time wished he could have brought a better return to Calgary in the trade. I don't know whether he was overvalued or not, but it sure seemed Sutter was falling off his rocker at that time.

You have to wonder why Sutter never considered more trade avenues for him. Sending a guy with Dion's ego and seemingly diminishing on ice value to the pressure cooker in Toronto almost seems like a setup for him to fail, or at least learn some humility.

Bottom line - as things sit today, I wouldn't give Stajan up for Phaneuf, and I am by no means a Stajan fan.

[Bertuzzied]

I wish for the sake of peoples' health, that they would get off the "rebuild" bandwagon.

For as long as the current ownership, Feaster and King are around the flames will not be doing a full on rebuild.




I'm sure this could fit in the "unpopular opinion" thread.

I'm pretty sure the majority of flames fans does not support the full rebuild suck-comeau oiler strategy. There are only a loud few on here that supports that.

[I_H8_Crawford]

2nd worst trade in the franchise's history.

Absolutely BRUTAL trade by Sutter who went bat-crap crazy that week.

Trading your only blue-chip trade bait without a NMC for a pile of absolute crap??? Awful. Horrible. And it did set this franchise back years because of it.

My blood pressure still rises when I think of that trade and how utterly STUPID it was.

I just hope Feaster and all future GMs have now learned from history - do NOT make big trades with the Leafs... you will get raped every time.

Horrible trade, and Sutter should have been fired the second he mentioned that was the deal he was going to accept.

[GirlySports]

I wish for the sake of peoples' health, that they would get off the "rebuild" bandwagon.

For as long as the current ownership, Feaster and King are around the flames will not be doing a full on rebuild.


I'm sure this could fit in the "unpopular opinion" thread.

Agreed. Why would anyone blow up and rebuild in a cap system?
What they're doing up north is ridiculous and will fail miserably.

[Anduril]

Surprised that there is no mention of Keith Aulie in this thread. He was the best player in the deal.

If you've been listening to leaf fans last year, then yes. Aulie played well enough to be Phaneuf's partner and next thing you know, future top 2 pairing defenseman was stolen from the Flames.
No doubt we would probably lovely to have Aulie over Butler as a future replacement for Sarah, but right now he's a #5 D

[Psytic]

I'm pretty sure the majority of flames fans does not support the full rebuild suck-comeau oiler strategy. There are only a loud few on here that supports that.

Not much point now when Iggy, Tanguay and Kipper aren't worth nearly as much as they were 3 yrs ago. I think the boat has sailed on a decent return on these guys.

[OldDutch]

Bottom line - as things sit today, I wouldn't give Stajan up for Phaneuf, and I am by no means a Stajan fan.

That is a very level headed thing to say.

1. Cap Hit - massively over priced in this market, especially with cap going down next year. We keep Dion, we lose someone else. Before you say Stajan, he wouldn't be here so that money for Hudler, Wideman, Glencross may not have been available. Opportunity cost.

2. He's a captain and #1 D - he is their most recognizable d man for sure. Regardless, a captain is supposed to elevate the people around him, TO has been a bottom dweller since he got there. Nothing has changed. He has good stats, but who cares, TO has to win games.

3. He would have clashed with current leaders - This isn't even a question, he was fighting with Reggie and Iggy towards the end. He made it a me or them situation that may have forced Sutter's hand during the losing streak. Right or wrong on siding with Iggy, Dion forced that situation and that was a problem. Typical me first attitude that Subban, Yak, and many of these young new guys display.

4. We don't know, what we don't know - Wax all you want that Dion would have got you a top player but show proof. Otherwise it is all speculation and conjecture. Maybe that was in fact the best deal, Sutter knows, maybe ownership does too, be we Shute as heck don't.

I have always said Sutter still would have won that trade on shear cap space, and locker room drama removal alone. If he only didn't resign Stajan that cap money could have went to getting that #1 center for Iggy. Now there is a what if.

[nik-]

I thought that Sutter should have been gone after the 4th first round exit in a row. If that would have happened, this trade wouldn't have gone down, or maybe they would have traded for something good.

They gave him too much rope and he used it to #### up our team :(

[Buster]

Our garbage for their garbage.

The real shame of the whole situation is that we drafted Phaneuf in the first place over some much better players.

Sutter was the only GM that totally screwed up the brilliant 2003 draft.

[Erick Estrada]

Actually the reason Photon provided in the thread itself was this

"It's difficult to know how much Burke "destroyed" Sutter without knowing what else was being offered, and how much Sutter's hand was forced. "

That's a completely different reason then what you are providing. If you are going to use a locked thread as a way to tell everyone how smart you are, at least be accurate about why a mod locked a thread.

Oh Jiri. You actually went back just to make that post. Good on you sparing no expense to take a dig at me. I was still right that day and that bothers you.

[Tinordi]

At the time Phaneuf wasn't garbage. At least he wasn't the garbage he is now. We could have gotten alot more for him if we didn't have such a stupid win at all costs right now view.

[Erick Estrada]

Worse than the Gilmour trade (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=86216)

Such a crappy time to be a Flames fan. That trade came on the heels of a ten game losing streak. It really made no sense, I now doubt that Darryl was solely behind that deal. I think ownership played a big role, I believe it when Keenan says ownership was pulling a lot of strings. Prior to the panic that season, Sutter was an ardent Phaneuf supporter.

We will never know the full truth but the bottom line is that is was a very bad day in the history of the franchise. Phaneuf detractors can put whatever spin they want but it doesnt change the fact that it's one of the worst examples of asset management the league has seen in recent history especially when we have seen depth defenseman fetch 2nd round drafts picks at the deadline. Phaneuf a few years before was a Norris finalist for crying out loud.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

My point is that trading Iggy and Kipper, and aiming for suckage three years ago would've been a poor decision given that - in my estimation - we were one good center away from making the playoffs last season.

Not really so bizarre. Scorched earth is a poor policy, and there are ways to improve the team without it. Brad Richards is a good example, because he was an opportunity to improve the team by leaps and bounds all in one go. Our prospects have been improving incrementally despite not going full on suck.

It's very bizzare because you are working in a world of hypotheticals. Brad Richards is not a good example because the team was unable to acquire him. I agree we are one good centre away from being a much better team, but our current strategy is one of the reasons we don't have said player. 3 ways to acquire a good centre:

1) Trade for the player. Due to the Flames current strategy, we don't really have the assets that will acquire this player, or we would have to give up so much that is key to our line up or future, that we would then swap out one problem for another and be right back where we started.

2) Draft that player. Could happen later in the draft, but a scorched earth strategy gives you a much better chance of drafting one, like RNH.

3) Sign a high profile UFA, like Brad Richards. Possible at any point, but IMO a team in the Flames position will struggle to attract any really good UFA's to fill that hole. There are probably multiple reasons Richards ended up in New York and not Calgary: Wanted to be in NY, wanted to play for Torts, wanted to be closer to home. All of the above probably played a factor, but you know what else probably played a factor? Richards also likely liked his chances of present and future success a whole lot better with the Rangers than he did coming to Calgary. Calgary doesn't look poised to win now, or later, how appealing do you think that is to a difference making UFA with his head on straight, likely not very.

So talking about how our strategy is good because we are one "Brad Richards" away from being a contender is moot, because we likely can't attract one given our current situation, and at the very least, can't be used as an argument until we do.

[Buster]

I think it's pretty much widely acknowledged as fact that there were "extenuating circumstances" that required an immediate departure of Phaneuf.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I think it's pretty much widely acknowledged as fact that there were "extenuating circumstances" that required an immediate departure of Phaneuf.
Are you talking about the hanky panky rumours?

[Vinny01]

It was the climax of a season turned into a nightmare.

So much optimism at the start of that year. Finally a #1C in Jokinen, finally Brent Sutter coaching this team, arguably the best defense in the league. This was coming off a year where we should have won the division if injuries and the salary cap didn't totally destroy us down the stretch.

The start that season was incredible I think we were 24-12-5 at the halfway point. We won a huge game against Vancouver in the shootout and then went on to lose 9 or 10 in row trade rumors rampant. Then wake up hung over Sunday after watching the Flames beat the Oilers and hear the news. Instantly I started thinking this was part of a plan that Sutter couldn't be that crazy. The day/night wore on and finally when i stopped checking CP and listening to the FAN my buddy texted me saying Dregger is reporting Jokinen and Prust have been traded for Higgins and Kotalik (who was scratched for 9 straight games). I simply couldn't beleive it. I was convinced Sutter was going to turn these assets into a number 1 center of something. It was the beginning of the end for that Flames playoff team and they have never recovered.

On the other side of the coin Dion did not improve in Toronto and has completely plateaued as a player. He was paid on potential and never lived up to it. He is better than Matt Stajan but that is not saying much.

Toronto can love Gilmour and Dion as much as they want but at the end of the day Gilmour won his only Cup in Calgary and Phaneuf got his only Norris nomination in Calgary.

[AltaGuy]

It's very bizzare because you are working in a world of hypotheticals. Brad Richards is not a good example because the team was unable to acquire him. I agree we are one good centre away from being a much better team, but our current strategy is one of the reasons we don't have said player. 3 ways to acquire a good centre:

So talking about how our strategy is good because we are one "Brad Richards" away from being a contender is moot, because we likely can't attract one given our current situation, and at the very least, can't be used as an argument until we do.

Would seem to me that contemplation of any team other than the exact team we have right now would constitute a hypothetical.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Would seem to me that contemplation of any team other than the exact team we have right now would constitute a hypothetical.
Exactly. So don't trump the Flames current strategy as a good one based on things the Flames aren't at this point, which is exactly what you are doing.

[AltaGuy]

Exactly. So don't trump the Flames current strategy as a good one based on things the Flames aren't at this point, which is exactly what you are doing.

I happen to think the Flames are pretty good and could get even better, hypothetically speaking of course. ;)

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I happen to think the Flames are pretty good and could get even better, hypothetically speaking of course. ;)

LOL, that I'm fine with :) Saying the Flames strategy is a good one because we could get Brad Richards, when we were unable to get Brad Richards, is something completely different.

[Buster]

Are you talking about the hanky panky rumours?

I think discussion of the specifics is considered offsides on CP, but yes I am.

And like I said, I'm not sure I would characterize them as "rumours."

[Resolute 14]

Oh Jiri. You actually went back just to make that post. Good on you sparing no expense to take a dig at me. I was still right that day and that bothers you.

The returns after three years suggests strongly that you were, in fact, wrong.

Sutter did not get fleeced by Burke. He failed to fleece Burke, yes, but none of the guys Toronto got have done much of anything for them either. Both teams got a bad deal.

[afc wimbledon]

I happen to think the Flames are pretty good and could get even better, hypothetically speaking of course. ;)

It's statistically difficult for them to to get any worse, which makes half of your statement right and half of it deluded.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Terrible, terrible trade. We could have gotten legit young assets and picks to help us in the future but no, Darryl had to go all desperation mode on us. He also had to follow up with that abysmal Kotalik, Higgins trade that made zero sense. Imagine if we had drafted Baertschi back then and he was still in junior. Sutter would have probably flipped him in a deal for Gomez with the mindset he had that day. I wonder who his drug dealer was.

[calgARI]

One of the worst value trades I have ever seen. Love or hate Phaneuf, he was worth a lot more than the complete trash Sutter got in return. That one article from a couple years ago seemed to reveal that Sutter inexplicably never opened talks with other teams for Phaneuf. Team could have gotten so much more in terms of youth and draft picks. Awful. Blown opportunity.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

RS6zQaPQXEM

[Erick Estrada]

The returns after three years suggests strongly that you were, in fact, wrong.

Sutter did not get fleeced by Burke. He failed to fleece Burke, yes, but none of the guys Toronto got have done much of anything for them either. Both teams got a bad deal.

How can you say that with a straight face? Saying Phaneuf hasn't done anything for them when he's their #1 defenseman and captain is simply denial. Has he taken them to the playoffs? No but I don't believe that's how you judge player for player swaps. You judge it based on contribution and Phaneuf contributes in almost 30 minutes ice time per game also Carter Ashton is the player they got for Aulie that is at least a contributor with their farm club.

I'm not a Stajan hater and think he's fine in his 3rd line role but he and our 8th defenseman (Babchuk) is all the Flames essentially have to show for that deal. Appologists and Phaneuf haters can put whatever spin they want but everyone outside of Calgary knows that was an extremely poor deal and lets not be like Oilers fans living in our own bubble arguing that it was anything else but a fleecing.

[Corral]

I think this trade was simply a gift by the Sutters to Phaneuf - get him out of this locker room and the troubles that had arisen in there - and provide him with one of, if not the best, spotlights in the NHL - captain of the Leafs.

Phaneuf was highly touted by the Sutters and they did him a personal favour - at the expense of the team. At that point, Sutter had complete trust of the Flames and the city - too much power and trust often plays out badly.

Its played out to perfection for Phaneuf - just as planned.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Also the playoff hopefuls arguing with the rebuild idealist. No one will ever win this argument. Both sides are right and wrong with their reasoning and ideas and it won't solve anything accept for a long and endless arguments when the ultimate choice isn't up to us.

In my opinion if the flames make the playoffs, good. We worked hard to make it and we get to watch our team battle it out for hopefully more than one round. The playoff atmosphere we've had in the past is incredible. But if we are far out of the picture come trade deadline, good also. It will show the management that it is truly time to evaluate the roster and realize what they are doing isn't working and they will make the tough decisions they have to. It's a win/win in my books.

[boggledepot]

He's responsible for the state our organization is in right now, which is an utter mess, so no, not forgiven.


Agreed with that too. The trade was so bad and Sutter's history really make you wonder who was pulling the strings on that deal and subsequent franchise sinking deals that followed.

Ken Kling and Co. have gotten off with remarkably little blame.

Conspiracy theories are interesting, but I think the real problem was Darryl Sutter was given autonomy to manage the Flames however he wished, without any interference from the brass. The organization (and a ton of Flames fans) had complete in confidence Sutter, thinking he was a brilliant hockey mind--hence the oft-heard expression, "in Sutter we trust." I have to give where credit is due; Darryl Sutter knows hockey. He was good for the Flames organization. He instilled a winning culture, resurrected an ailing franchise and made it profitable. This is why he was allowed to run the team without interference. Which is great, except Darryl Sutter is no Warren Buffet when it comes to business, and a GM in the NHL has to be good at hockey and business. This accounts for why Jay Feaster is the Flames GM--a person who I have increasing respect for as a GM, something we can argue about in a different thread.

I was unhappy when Dion Phaneuf was traded, but now I'm indifferent. I'm happy he is the captain of the Leafs, but I am relieved he is no Denis Potvin. I'm not surprised that trade gets all the attention and is viewed as the worst. The truth is the real bad trade, not-to-mention the strangest was Olli Jokinen and Brandon Prust for Chris Higgins and Ales Kotalik. I did learn something about the Flames ownership group from Darryl Sutter losing his mind. The ownership will spend to cap ceiling, but they will not bury a contract in the minors. I guess that is fair.

[Resolute 14]

How can you say that with a straight face? Saying Phaneuf hasn't done anything for them when he's their #1 defenseman and captain is simply denial. Has he taken them to the playoffs? No but I don't believe that's how you judge player for player swaps. You judge it based on contribution and Phaneuf contributes in almost 30 minutes ice time per game also Carter Ashton is the player they got for Aulie that is at least a contributor with their farm club.

You are trying to justify your position by stating that a player they got by trading one of the players they got from us is contributing with their farm club. Think about that.


As far as Phaneuf playing 30 minutes a night goes, so did Bouwmeester in the past. Has he been a great player in your view? What about Chris Butler playing big minutes last year?

Dion Phaneuf as Leafs captain reminds me of Todd Simpson as our captain - the guy gets the letter because there is nobody else.

Overall though, I think you are introducing a false dichotomy. I am saying that the Leafs did not fleece the Flames, not that Phaneuf is terrible and worthless and anything else you are implying. I said in the other Phaneuf thread that the dude is trending into a slightly better version of Derek Morris. Which is to say that he will be a serviceable player for a long time. But he is already a shadow of what he was early in his NHL career, and it seems less and less likely that he will ever reach the potential we held for him.

[moon]

Sutter was the only GM that totally screwed up the brilliant 2003 draft.

You're right I am sure the Islander fans are thrilled they got Robert Nillson and not Parise. The Kings must think it is awesome how they rode Brian Boyle and Jeff Tambellini to the Cup win last year and let their rivals get Corey Perry.

Can't think how the Panther fans could be pissed that they ended up with Nathan Horton at number 3 while ignoring bums such as Getzlf, Perry, Richards, Carter, Parise. And could you imagine how pissed they would have been if their GM had picked a guy like Perry or Erikson with their 2nd pick instead of Anthony Stewart?

Oilers fans might have been last 7 years in a row if it weren't for Marc-Andre Pouliot carrying them all those years.

And of course the top choice of them all, can't think any Rangers fan could think that their GM screwed up by getting Hugh Jessiman and his 2 NHL games at 15. What a steal!!!!!

All the Flames got was a pathetic 4 seasons of 47+ points from their defenseman, so great hits, a Calder and Norris nomination and some of the most exciting plays overall during his time as a Flame.

Clearly it was only Sutter that screwed that draft up.

[moon]

And like I said, I'm not sure I would characterize them as "rumours."

So then you would categorize them as the lies they are?

[Flash Walken]

The thing that makes me question the behind the scenes factor the most is that Phaneuf is the only one who seemed to get what he wanted out of the transaction.

Sounds to me like Darryl gave him a nice little parachute out of this disaster.

[sun]

Bleh, completely awful 1 week period in Flames history. Don't want to think about it and wish we would all stop talking about it.

[Phanuthier]

That's possible. I don't agree, but it's possible.

However, swinging for the fences on a #1 center is never a bad idea in my mind. Trading Iggy and Kipper and aiming for the basement is always a bad idea to me.

Another good reason is a simple comparison between some of Darryl Sutter's "big splashes" (and attempted ones) and the only one Feaster has tried that we know about.

Feaster: Brad Richards, who unquestionably helped the Rags a lot last season, and I think would've helped us make the playoffs.

Darryl Sutter: Bouwmeester, Jokinen, Redden, Smyth.

Thank god Sutter never got the opportunity to trade Iggy or Kipper.
Why did you leave off Feaster going after Ryan Smyth, and leave off Darryl getting Tanguay and Langkow? Did those examples not fit your bias rant?


In my ongoing futile attempt to remain optimistic about the Flames, I remember thinking this was a "Moneyball" type trade by Sutter.
Man, there is a word I haven't heard in a while. Moneyball sure was a favorite word here last year.

[Inglewood Jack]

He's responsible for the state our organization is in right now, which is an utter mess, so no, not forgiven.

eff that, Darryl is reponsible for my best memories as a hockey fan in 2004. and yes I'm including 1989 in that statement because 1. I was too young to really go out and enjoy it and 2. they weren't this crazy Cinderella story that created an unexpected and spontaneous eruption of the city's spirit.

that run ended up being his downfall because we all wanted to go on that ride again. you make it sound like he purposefully sabotaged the franchise for poops and giggles...no. he wanted to win just like everybody else, he just went about it totally wrong. but I guess you've never known a person who screwed up at their job, maybe that's why you can't forgive him.

[GirlySports]

We're going on that unexpected eruption again this year! :)

[calgaryred]

Worst trade ever.

Gilmour for Leeman was

Try watching the worst trade ever light up the net for the Leafs every week, and be talked about as much as Gretzky.

[canflip_101]

dion didnt keep the puck in whenever it was going around the boards thats why sutter was like, i gotta let him go.

[SuperMatt18]

Why did you leave off Feaster going after Ryan Smyth, and leave off Darryl getting Tanguay and Langkow? Did those examples not fit your bias rant?


The whole Feaster/ Ryan Smith thing was a ploy IMO.

Gave the Flames some leverage in the Tanguay negotiations, and allowed the Kings to get some leverage in the negotiations with the Oilers.

That was strictly two GM's helping each other out by creating a false rumor.

[Phanuthier]

The whole Feaster/ Ryan Smith thing was a ploy IMO.

Gave the Flames some leverage in the Tanguay negotiations, and allowed the Kings to get some leverage in the negotiations with the Oilers.

That was strictly two GM's helping each other out by creating a false rumor.
Oh, gotcha. Stuff that makes Feaster look good = ploy. Stuff that makes Darryl look bad = stupid.

[Buster]

You're right I am sure the Islander fans are thrilled they got Robert Nillson and not Parise. The Kings must think it is awesome how they rode Brian Boyle and Jeff Tambellini to the Cup win last year and let their rivals get Corey Perry.

Can't think how the Panther fans could be pissed that they ended up with Nathan Horton at number 3 while ignoring bums such as Getzlf, Perry, Richards, Carter, Parise. And could you imagine how pissed they would have been if their GM had picked a guy like Perry or Erikson with their 2nd pick instead of Anthony Stewart?

Oilers fans might have been last 7 years in a row if it weren't for Marc-Andre Pouliot carrying them all those years.

And of course the top choice of them all, can't think any Rangers fan could think that their GM screwed up by getting Hugh Jessiman and his 2 NHL games at 15. What a steal!!!!!

All the Flames got was a pathetic 4 seasons of 47+ points from their defenseman, so great hits, a Calder and Norris nomination and some of the most exciting plays overall during his time as a Flame.

Clearly it was only Sutter that screwed that draft up.


You're quite right. There were a couple of teams that screwed up that draft. Zherdev didn't work out either. But most of the other teams that drafted ahead of the Flames managed to not screw it up. Same with most of the teams afterward.

[Bertuzzied]

Gilmour for Leeman was

Try watching the worst trade ever light up the net for the Leafs every week, and be talked about as much as Gretzky.

thats not even Sutter's worst trade. That was Jokinen and Prust for Higgins and Kotalik.

I would have been very happy if they fired Sutter after that one.

[Buster]

So then you would categorize them as the lies they are?

I'm assuming you feel you speak with some level of authority or knowledge.

[moon]

I'm assuming you feel you speak with some level of authority or knowledge.

I feel I always speak with a level of authority.

[SuperMatt18]

Oh, gotcha. Stuff that makes Feaster look good = ploy. Stuff that makes Darryl look bad = stupid.

Hey I wasn't arguing with you. Sutter made some great moves in his time here as GM, especially if you take out that 10 day span. IMO that was just an obvious play by two GMs.

Flames were locked in contract negotiations with their star LW and just happened to be working on a trade for a LW to replace him.

The Kings were locked into negotiations with the Oilers since Ryan Smith would only go back to Alberta (preferably) Edmonton and had no leverage in the trade negotiations.

[Erick Estrada]

You are trying to justify your position by stating that a player they got by trading one of the players they got from us is contributing with their farm club. Think about that.


As far as Phaneuf playing 30 minutes a night goes, so did Bouwmeester in the past. Has he been a great player in your view? What about Chris Butler playing big minutes last year?

Dion Phaneuf as Leafs captain reminds me of Todd Simpson as our captain - the guy gets the letter because there is nobody else.

Overall though, I think you are introducing a false dichotomy. I am saying that the Leafs did not fleece the Flames, not that Phaneuf is terrible and worthless and anything else you are implying. I said in the other Phaneuf thread that the dude is trending into a slightly better version of Derek Morris. Which is to say that he will be a serviceable player for a long time. But he is already a shadow of what he was early in his NHL career, and it seems less and less likely that he will ever reach the potential we held for him.

Both teams got a bad deal.

You just said it was a bad deal and now you are backtracking saying he's trending to a serviceable defenseman, one that scored double digit goals and 40+ points last year. The fact is like Moon said before Phaneuf isn't nearly as bad as you and others like to paint him and a lesser defenseman such as Luke Schenn fetched Van Riemsdyk. It's not a bad deal for the Leafs until Phaneuf turns into a player so bad that they have to bury him on the depth chart as a #1 defenseman is a #1 defenseman and there are less than 40 in the league.

Give it up already as you can't win this argument.

[HPLovecraft]

I'm assuming you feel you speak with some level of authority or knowledge.

Are you?

You can't go in threads and drop vague hints all over the place and try and act as if you know anything more than anyone else in here. If you actually know something, tell us what it is and how you know it to be true, otherwise, you're just another guy on the internet repeating rumours. Yes, rumours.

[Resolute 14]

You just said it was a bad deal and now you are backtracking saying he's trending to a serviceable defenseman, one that scored double digit goals and 40+ points last year. The fact is like Moon said before Phaneuf isn't nearly as bad as you and others like to paint him and a lesser defenseman such as Luke Schenn fetched Van Riemsdyk. It's not a bad deal for the Leafs until Phaneuf turns into a player so bad that they have to bury him on the depth chart as a #1 defenseman is a #1 defenseman and there are less than 40 in the league.

Give it up already as you can't win this argument.

Well, if we accept your definition of "backtracking", then no, I can't win because you will just redefine every English word you need to to maintain the delusion that you are right.

Toronto did not make that trade to acquire a serviceable defenceman. They traded for what they expected could still be a superstar defenceman. If the Leafs got Dion Phaneuf, the superstar Norris-winning defenceman that we all thought he would be following his rookie season in this trade, then yes, the Flames would have gotten fleeced. As it is, Toronto may have gotten the better of the trade, but they hardly made out like bandits. And I question whether Phaneuf has brought all that much to Toronto.

[Inglewood Jack]

We're going on that unexpected eruption again this year! :)

hate it when that happens, oh wait, hockey right?? yes, I hope you're correct. the good thing about sucking so long is that you never get blase about playoff action. I still think we'll get there before TO does.

[bubbsy]

Wish we didn't have to remember this like an anniversary :(

In my opinion, this single trade screwed the franchise in remaining competitive or being able to turn it around quickly.

Taking an asset and getting back stajan, white, hagman, mayers (orwhatever 4th liners, 3rd pairing dmen they resulted in) down right idiotic. I refuse to believe phanuef's stock had fallen so low at that point where this is all that could expected in the return. Hearing GMs state they weren't even aware he was available is even more painful.

[Icon]

The aftermath of that trade on both teams' current roster after the dust's settled & 3 years passed:


Calgary:
Stajan, Babchuk


Toronto:
Phaneuf, Ashton (AHL)


So in the end, yawn.

[JiriHrdina]

Oh Jiri. You actually went back just to make that post. Good on you sparing no expense to take a dig at me. I was still right that day and that bothers you.

It's been a long time since we've gone at it - don't you miss it even just a little bit. We've been far to agreeable lately. I miss the days when you would threaten to get out of your car. :D

[automaton 3]

I was unhappy when Dion Phaneuf was traded, but now I'm indifferent. I'm happy he is the captain of the Leafs, but I am relieved he is no Denis Potvin. I'm not surprised that trade gets all the attention and is viewed as the worst. The truth is the real bad trade, not-to-mention the strangest was Olli Jokinen and Brandon Prust for Chris Higgins and Ales Kotalik.

This pretty much sums it up for me. The Phaneuf trade hurt and I thought that it wasn't enough of a return, but I could at least understand where Sutter was trying to go with it.

The Jokinen/Prust trade was (and still is) a horrible trade.

[Buster]

Are you?

You can't go in threads and drop vague hints all over the place and try and act as if you know anything more than anyone else in here. If you actually know something, tell us what it is and how you know it to be true, otherwise, you're just another guy on the internet repeating rumours. Yes, rumours.

I find semantic debates tiresome. And unless anything has changed here in recent years, the admin take a dim view of referencing the events directly. the admin tolerate nothing more than vague hints. I don't blame them.

As for information we have what we have, and I doubt after all this time anyone really is interested in being convinced one way or the other. It wasn't my intention to make a case to legitimize the rumours. It would be a logical fallacy, however, to say that just because no one is willing to prove a rumour that it is a lie.

[SeeGeeWhy]

I think Burke did Sutter a personal favour by agreeing to that trade. Both teams lost on the ice, and both GMs suffered losses in their reputations for it.

Sutter, as gruff a guy he was (is?), always seemed to give guys another shot and was a big time gambler. He tried to do well for every player in that trade.

Yeah I'm upset the Flames didn't get more, but I imagine things would have been worse if DP stayed in town.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I think Burke did Sutter a personal favour by agreeing to that trade. Both teams lost on the ice, and both GMs suffered losses in their reputations for it.

Sutter, as gruff a guy he was (is?), always seemed to give guys another shot and was a big time gambler. He tried to do well for every player in that trade.

Yeah I'm upset the Flames didn't get more, but I imagine things would have been worse if DP stayed in town.

Is that even possible? We haven't seen playoff time since he left, and we've be stuck in the no mans land of playoff rejcts each year. Not sure how it could actually be worse?

[CsInMyBlood]

or could've had:

Phaneuf - Regher
Jbo - Wideman
Gio - Brodie

Yeah, if you wanted around $27 M tied up on the backend I guess.

I, like others agree it was probably time for Dion to go, but damn that was a brutal return and we still have to watch Matt Stajan.

[Enoch Root]

We're going on that unexpected eruption again this year! :)
For some reason, that sounds a lot better when you say it!

[dammage79]

I will take "Who Cares!" for $1500 Alex.

It was Sutter, it was done, move on.





EDIT: Fixed for game show inaccuracy .

[Change of Heart]

I will take "Who Cares!" for $2500 Alex.

It was Sutter, it was done, move on.

they don't have a $2500 category

[dammage79]

they don't have a $2500 category

Thought that was the highest in Double Jeopardy? Or is it $1500?

[GreenLantern2814]

I think Burke did Sutter a personal favour by agreeing to that trade. Both teams lost on the ice, and both GMs suffered losses in their reputations for it.

Sutter, as gruff a guy he was (is?), always seemed to give guys another shot and was a big time gambler. He tried to do well for every player in that trade.

Yeah I'm upset the Flames didn't get more, but I imagine things would have been worse if DP stayed in town.

How much worse? Erik Gudbranson worse? Mikael Granlund worse? Tyler Seguin worse?

[Change of Heart]

Thought that was the highest in Double Jeopardy? Or is it $1500?

yes its $ 1500

[Change of Heart]

How much worse? Erik Gudbranson worse? Mikael Granlund worse? Tyler Seguin worse?

well those guys suck

[GreenLantern2814]

well those guys suck

They're no Mayers, White and Hagman, that's for sure.

[Change of Heart]

They're no Mayers, White and Hagman, that's for sure.

exactly man

[robaur]

You're right I am sure the Islander fans are thrilled they got Robert Nillson and not Parise. The Kings must think it is awesome how they rode Brian Boyle and Jeff Tambellini to the Cup win last year and let their rivals get Corey Perry.

Can't think how the Panther fans could be pissed that they ended up with Nathan Horton at number 3 while ignoring bums such as Getzlf, Perry, Richards, Carter, Parise. And could you imagine how pissed they would have been if their GM had picked a guy like Perry or Erikson with their 2nd pick instead of Anthony Stewart?

Oilers fans might have been last 7 years in a row if it weren't for Marc-Andre Pouliot carrying them all those years.

And of course the top choice of them all, can't think any Rangers fan could think that their GM screwed up by getting Hugh Jessiman and his 2 NHL games at 15. What a steal!!!!!

All the Flames got was a pathetic 4 seasons of 47+ points from their defenseman, so great hits, a Calder and Norris nomination and some of the most exciting plays overall during his time as a Flame.

Clearly it was only Sutter that screwed that draft up.

Bravo Moon! I can't believe I am saying this but I agree! :w00t:

[boggledepot]

Wish we didn't have to remember this like an anniversary :(

In my opinion, this single trade screwed the franchise in remaining competitive or being able to turn it around quickly.

Taking an asset and getting back stajan, white, hagman, mayers (orwhatever 4th liners, 3rd pairing dmen they resulted in) down right idiotic. I refuse to believe phanuef's stock had fallen so low at that point where this is all that could expected in the return. Hearing GMs state they weren't even aware he was available is even more painful.

I think part of the reason Dion Phaneuf being traded has no impact on me is because this isn't true. I understand why he was considered the super sexy player; he scored and hit harder than anybody. But by the time he was traded, everybody knew what he was about. With his skill-set (which isn't bad) and his contract, Calgary was not going to get a bundle.

Sadly, you couldn't have traded him when he had a super high value. The Flames had a player who only had be more sound with his positioning, and improve his passing, and they might have had the best defenseman in the league. Brent Sutter man... he was determined and believed Dion Phaneuf (and he should because that is like his very own child) could become the best. It just didn't happen. Shaq couldn't hit free throws. He accepts it now saying he wasn't born with it. Shaq was born with the physical attributes to be the most dominating player in his sport, but was never able to do something a novice can acquire. Ironic ehh?

No disrespect to Dion, but I played better positional defense when I was in atom than him. I had to. I wasn't bigger, stronger, faster, than anybody; I learned to adapt. But that's a bigger skill set than anything else: what do you do when you encounter a player who is better and more talented than you?

[GreenLantern2814]

Phaneuf - Regher first pairing would be a disaster.
Regher's game has gone down since the new rules were enforced. Buffalo isn't happy with him either.

When Ryan Miller is off just a little bit, the Sabres don't win.

Regher was an elite shut down #1 for the first six years of the lockout. He had no issue whatsoever adjusting to the new rules, and he would often take Gaborik out of a game completely on his own.

Like dion, his major downfall appears to have been significant leg injuries. Which aren't either of their faults; if Dion could still skate like he could in 2008, he'd still be a Flame. Ditto regher.

[Stay Golden]

It was a horrible Trade.

What Sutter traded :blink:

Phaneuf 24- Young D man that was on the NHL all rookie team, 2 Allstar appearances.
Playoffs all 4 years with the Flames.

Sjostrom 27 - 4th line player.

Aulie 20 A young Prospect D 6'6 who ends up playing for the Leafs now TB.

and what Sutter traded for :mad:

Stajan 26- 2nd line Center who at that time on any competitive team is a 3rd Line Center.

Hagman 30- 3rd line Winger who is not the player he was.

White 26 - 2nd Line Small sized D.

Mayers 35 4th Line checker.

Regardless of how you feel about Dion etc currently. It was a horrible Trade Sutter made at the time and he would have been offered a hell of lot more if he would if let all GM's know What will you give Calgary for Phaneuf?

It has become common knowledge Sutter did not talk to many GM's at all about Phaneuf.

[Flame Of Liberty]

I remember how "senior posters" here piled on everyone who thought we got spare parts back.

Oh how I wish we did get spare parts back! At least hey have a use!

[I_H8_Crawford]

It was a horrible Trade.

What Sutter traded :blink:

Phaneuf 24- Young D man that was on the NHL all rookie team, 2 Allstar appearances.
Playoffs all 4 years with the Flames.

Sjostrom 27 - 4th line player.

Aulie 20 A young Prospect D 6'6 who ends up playing for the Leafs now TB.

and what Sutter traded for :mad:

Stajan 26- Pure Garbage

Hagman 30- Garbage

White 26 - Pure Garbage

Mayers 35 4th Line checker.

Regardless of how you feel about Dion etc currently. It was a horrible Trade Sutter made at the time and he would have been offered a hell of lot more if he would if let all GM's know What will you give Calgary for Phaneuf?

It has become common knowledge Sutter did not talk to many GM's at all about Phaneuf.
Fixed your post :)

[Flash Walken]

I remember how "senior posters" here piled on everyone who thought we got spare parts back.

Oh how I wish we did get spare parts back! At least hey have a use!

link?

[Resolute 14]

It has become common knowledge Sutter did not talk to many GM's at all about Phaneuf.

Since you are you and I trust just about nothing you have to say, I expect you'll be backing this up.

[zunie75]

The thing that bothers me when I think about this trade, isn't who we got in return. Its who we could have drafted instead of Dion. Hindsight I suppose, but it sucks to think that we traded what was supposed to be a franchise D man, for basically nothing. When we could have drafted a franchise center instead.

[Enoch Root]

I don't think we should have ever come down from the trees

[Flame Of Liberty]

At the time Phaneuf wasn't garbage. At least he wasn't the garbage he is now. We could have gotten alot more for him if we didn't have such a stupid win at all costs right now view.

CP Timeline:

Trade Day - 1 >> Phaneuf is a young great defender with tons of potential still untapped, would fetch a first line center but Sutter will never trade him because he's not bat-crap insane.

Trade Day >> Solid asset management! White will replace Dion, Stajan put up points in crappy TO so he will put up more points with Iginla and Hagman is a solid two way 20+ goal scorer!

Trade Day + 3 years >> Dion was crap all along.

[MissTeeks]

Nothing brings out poster vitriol like a Phaneuf thread!

I still remember that morning, waking up to my phone buzzing with my TSN text message. I had a bad feeling before I even looked at it.

[troutman]

There are many factors in evaluating a trade besides players in and out. Such as, contracts (term and value), cap space, teem need, team chemistry etc

[dino7c]

I think Dion sucks but it was still a bad trade...it can be both.

looking back the best move would have been to trade him for a draft pick but if Daryl did that there would have been outrage at the time. More so

[SeeGeeWhy]

Is that even possible? We haven't seen playoff time since he left, and we've be stuck in the no mans land of playoff rejcts each year. Not sure how it could actually be worse?

Iginla and conroy out of the organization would be worse I think.

[Vinny01]

If anyone thinks we got the best trade available than they are blind Flames/Sutter apologists.

You trade a player if Dion's salary/calibre at the draft. The next draft there was rumors the sens were looking to move on from Spezza an they also signed puck moving dman Gonchar that summer so they were in the market

It was a knee jerk move and Darryl traded him to the most persistent GM who was more than happy to unload his useless crap he also got Sutter to toss in one of our only half decent prospects in Aulie

We also lacked a 2010 first with no prospects other than Backlund and we could have surely got one back if we held on until the draft

This mis-management of the Phanuef asset is a huge reason this team still relies on 2 35+ players that have carried this team for a decade to continue to do so

[edn88]

Clearly Sutter was eager to have a centre for Hudler and Cervenka... and was able to fleece Burke!