Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[sureLoss]

per Ron MacLean on CBC during the 2nd intermission of the Leafs Rangers game.

Also said it would be a downtown arena and a development plan for more than just an arena.

[indes]

Awesome! Probably twice as nice as edmontons, just sayin

[TurnedTheCorner]

Ho hum.

[KOgear]

Any guesses as where they would have space for something like this.?

[J epworth]

So from previous threads it looks like the 2 spots for a downtown arena were the West end, west of the greyhound building at the car sales lots, and just south of the rail tracks on 11th ave, potentially where Calgary transit is right now?

I guess the firestone location is out of the running now?

[_Q_]

Any guesses as where they would have space for something like this.?

Well since they say it's a re-development plan along with an arena, my bet is on either Victoria Park (just north of the Stampede grounds) or West Village area. Both are awesome locations. I can't wait to see the plans.

[Buzzard]

nm

[nik-]

I hope we get something cool looking and not Stampitecture.

[killer_carlson]

I hope we get something cool looking and not Stampitecture.


I think an iconic image that fits with the history and tradition of the region, such as a cowboy and stampede motif, is cool.

[dammage79]

Wooden rafters like that arena from the spengler cup would be cool.

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm so glad that they are keeping it in the downtown area.

edit: not sure if the current Saddledome is technically considered in the "downtown area", but as a frequesnt tourist, it seems close enough.

[nik-]

I think an iconic image that fits with the history and tradition of the region, such as a cowboy and stampede motif, is cool.

God I hope not.

[Heavy Jack]

Are they going to keep the Dome around still??

[MrMastodonFarm]

I can't wait for the Naheed Nenshi arena.

[ricosuave]

I'm almost certain it will be in the east village area

[BigFlameDog]

Are they going to keep the Dome around still??

They have previously said no...definitely a replacement. That real estate is too prime for a limited attraction building.

[Heavy Jack]

God I hope not.

While I agree I still hope they keep the Dome around, it's part of Olympic history and helps identify Calgary as cliche as it may be. I sincerely hope they don't go the same sort of direction though with the new arena though, I'm hoping for something along the lines of the arena in Columbus or Dallas but especially Nationwide. Here's some cool facts about it:

Construction
The arena is of a brick design and serves as the center of an entertainment district located about one-half of a mile north of the Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio) State Capitol. Seating capacity is approximately 18,500[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Arena#cite_note-9) for hockey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey), 17,171 for arena football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_football), 19,500 for basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball), and up to 21,000 for concerts.

Facilities
Nationwide Arena houses a smaller ice rink called the OhioHealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OhioHealth) IceHaus (formerly named the CoreComm IceHaus and Dispatch Ice Haus). This facility serves as the practice rink for the Blue Jackets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Blue_Jackets) and is also used for youth hockey games and open skating times for the public. This facility makes Nationwide Arena the first NHL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League) arena with an on-site practice facility and one of only two such facilities in NHL (the other being the Prudential Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential_Center), home of the New Jersey Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Devils)).

Location
The area surrounding Nationwide Arena, appropriately called the Arena District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_District), houses bars, clubs and a movie theater. The Columbus Clippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Clippers), a AAA baseball team in the International League, play in the newly constructed Huntington Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Park_%28Columbus,_Ohio%29) nearby. Columbus uses the arena as a drawing point for the city with the other establishments feeding off of the foot traffic. The Lifestyle Communities Pavilion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_Communities_Pavilion) concert venue, and Arena Grand Theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arena_Grand_Theatre&action=edit&redlink=1) adjacent to the Nationwide Arena property, completes the entertainment complex.

I like a lot of the qualities that the BJ's arena takes into consideration. It's just too bad they don't like hockey down there but I think a similar plan would work in a Hockey city like Calgary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg/800px-Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg

[jayswin]

Are they going to keep the Dome around still??

Nope, they stated it will be demolished shortly after teh new arena is open. Too costly to keep in operation.

[casucks]

Any guesses as where they would have space for something like this.?

Last time ken king was asked this he said it would be built where the big four building is.

[jayswin]

While I agree I still hope they keep the Dome around, it's part of Olympic history and helps identify Calgary as cliche as it may be. I sincerely hope they don't go the same sort of direction though with the new arena though, I'm hoping for something along the lines of the arena in Columbus or Dallas but especially Nationwide. Here's some cool facts about it:

Construction
The arena is of a brick design and serves as the center of an entertainment district located about one-half of a mile north of the Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio) State Capitol. Seating capacity is approximately 18,500[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Arena#cite_note-9) for hockey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey), 17,171 for arena football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_football), 19,500 for basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball), and up to 21,000 for concerts.

Facilities
Nationwide Arena houses a smaller ice rink called the OhioHealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OhioHealth) IceHaus (formerly named the CoreComm IceHaus and Dispatch Ice Haus). This facility serves as the practice rink for the Blue Jackets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Blue_Jackets) and is also used for youth hockey games and open skating times for the public. This facility makes Nationwide Arena the first NHL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League) arena with an on-site practice facility and one of only two such facilities in NHL (the other being the Prudential Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential_Center), home of the New Jersey Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Devils)).

Location
The area surrounding Nationwide Arena, appropriately called the Arena District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_District), houses bars, clubs and a movie theater. The Columbus Clippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Clippers), a AAA baseball team in the International League, play in the newly constructed Huntington Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Park_%28Columbus,_Ohio%29) nearby. Columbus uses the arena as a drawing point for the city with the other establishments feeding off of the foot traffic. The Lifestyle Communities Pavilion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_Communities_Pavilion) concert venue, and Arena Grand Theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arena_Grand_Theatre&action=edit&redlink=1) adjacent to the Nationwide Arena property, completes the entertainment complex.

I like a lot of the qualities that the BJ's arena takes into consideration. It's just too bad they don't like hockey down there but I think a similar plan would work in a Hockey city like Calgary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg/800px-Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg

That sounds like an excellent project to follow. I believe Ken King stated about two years ago that they were looking at the Excel Energy Centre in Minnesota and Nationwide Arena in Dallas for inspiration on our new arena.

[Heavy Jack]

Nope, they stated it will be demolished shortly after teh new arena is open. Too costly to keep in operation.

That's too bad. Vancouver kept the old Pacific Coliseum around for just the Giants but obviously there is a lot more people to draw on and the facility isn't near as large as the Dome. Still would have been cool to keep the Dome around though.

[jayswin]

So from previous threads it looks like the 2 spots for a downtown arena were the West end, west of the greyhound building at the car sales lots, and just south of the rail tracks on 11th ave, potentially where Calgary transit is right now?

I guess the firestone location is out of the running now?

I'm not sure where this speculation came from, but I don't believe it was ever seriously considered as a possible location for the new arena.

[jayswin]

That's too bad. Vancouver kept the old Pacific Coliseum around for just the Giants but obviously there is a lot more people to draw on and the facility isn't near as large as the Dome. Still would have been cool to keep the Dome around though.

Yeah, unfortunately this city just doesn't have any way to justify having two 18-20k seat arenas, especially when one of them is outdated and costs a lot of money to operate.

If anything, what this city needs badly (after a new arena for the Flames) is a multi-pupose, smaller arena. I've been wanting this for years, and it would serve a great purpose.

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.

I'm so tired of concerts in the Dome with 5-6k fans filling up less than half the arena, making for a brutal atmosphere, or playing in the Corral that has to have some of the worst concert acoustics in North America.

There's so many bands that come through town that are too big for Mac Hall/Jubilee, but way too small for the Dome.

[Heavy Jack]

Yeah, unfortunately this city just doesn't have any way to justify having two 18-20k seat arenas, especially when one of them is outdated and costs a lot of money to operate.

If anything, what this city needs badly (after a new arena for the Flames) is a multi-pupose, smaller arena. I've been wanting this for years, and it would serve a great purpose.

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.

I'm so tired of concerts in the Dome with 5-6k fans filling up less than half the arena, making for a brutal atmosphere, or playing in the Corral that has to have some of the worst concert acoustics in North America.

There's so many bands that come through town that are too big for Mac Hall/Jubilee, but way too small for the Dome.

Yeah, saw Dylan this year and back in 2005 and both times there was only 5 k and this last time a lot of people started clearing out early. Knopfler was awesome though :D but definitely not a arena that is conditioned for concerts which hurts for sure. Was so glad I got to see the Stones out in Vancouver but you never see them or other major acts stop through Calgary which is unfortunate. Looking forward to the new arena for sure!!

[TurnedTheCorner]

Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon

[frinkprof]

Yeah, unfortunately this city just doesn't have any way to justify having two 18-20k seat arenas, especially when one of them is outdated and costs a lot of money to operate.

If anything, what this city needs badly (after a new arena for the Flames) is a multi-pupose, smaller arena. I've been wanting this for years, and it would serve a great purpose.

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.

I'm so tired of concerts in the Dome with 5-6k fans filling up less than half the arena, making for a brutal atmosphere, or playing in the Corral that has to have some of the worst concert acoustics in North America.

There's so many bands that come through town that are too big for Mac Hall/Jubilee, but way too small for the Dome.A few years ago, there was a proposal for just such a venue. 8000 seats accompanied by a hotel and other amenities, to anchor an Anderson Station TOD.

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=ba078e78-4af4-47df-a711-b5b49ec72170&sponsor=

Oh, and cavernous*.

[frinkprof]

Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahonI personally think that McMahon won't be replaced until one or both of these things happen:

- Calgary is awarded another major international sporting event. Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games or Pan-Am Games.

- Development pressure on the current McMahon site (land and facility are owned by U of C) tips the scales on the economics of tearing McMahon down and building a replacement elsewhere.

[Joborule]

Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon
Please replace McMahon

Don't hold your breath. Ownership announced initiative to just renovate over the long term with a $100M budget.

Put me in the camp that hopes the Flames new arena isn't too influenced, if at all by the stampeditecture, and Flames go for something modern that is iconic and world class.

[MrMastodonFarm]

They should base it on the Peace Bridge.

[Tyler]

They should base it on the Peace Bridge.

That didn't take long. :rolleyes:

[troutman]

Expect an arena surrounded by awful franchise restaurants like Planet Hollywood, Margaritaville, Rainforest Cafe, Bubba Gump, ESPN etc.

[MrMastodonFarm]

That didn't take long. :rolleyes:

I'm serious.

[you got PHANUEFED]

3-4 months away just enough time to find out how much cash the Oilers will be getting from the province. Once a new rink is built we will see an All-Star game and Draft here in town wich will bring in alot of green.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I personally think that McMahon won't be replaced until one or both of these things happen:

- Calgary is awarded another major international sporting event. Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games or Pan-Am Games.

- Development pressure on the current McMahon site (land and facility are owned by U of C) tips the scales on the economics of tearing McMahon down and building a replacement elsewhere.

Don't hold your breath. Ownership announced initiative to just renovate over the long term with a $100M budget.

Put me in the camp that hopes the Flames new arena isn't too influenced, if at all by the stampeditecture, and Flames go for something modern that is iconic and world class.

:censored:

[The Goon]

I hope it's shaped like a cowboy hat and they call it the Cowboy Hatodome.

[troutman]

The Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy, Belt Buckle Barn

[TurnedTheCorner]

The Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy, Belt Buckle Barn

Too subtle

[Acey]

Of course it'll end up being Telus Centre, Shaw Place, Encana Plaza... some corporate drab.

[Lucifer]

Of course it'll end up being Telus Centre, Shaw Place, Encana Plaza... some corporate drab.

The Telus Shaw Encana Scotiabank Centre.

[edn88]

Encana doesn't have enough money to sponsor anything... Natural Gas is in the tank...

[Joborule]

I'm pretty sure Scotiabank has dibs on the new arena. Isn't their deal for a decade or so?

[taffeyb]

I just hope that it's on the LRT line. It was a mistake to have the Saddledome so far away from the LRT station. Not pleasant to walk there during the -30C windchills...

Big 4 locale would make sense though I hope that they would bury the LRT line all along from 24th ave to12th ave. Since the Stampede Park area is such a big deal, why hide it behind an LRT track and fencing? Not going to happen though.

[J epworth]

I just hope that it's on the LRT line. It was a mistake to have the Saddledome so far away from the LRT station. Not pleasant to walk there during the -30C windchills...

Big 4 locale would make sense though I hope that they would bury the LRT line all along from 24th ave to12th ave. Since the Stampede Park area is such a big deal, why hide it behind an LRT track and fencing? Not going to happen though.

Wait, your upset that the Saddledome is 400 meters away from the LRT station, and during the walk you have to be outside for a total of 300 meters, even that is covered. I don't think you could do much better than that.

[Joborule]

I just hope that it's on the LRT line. It was a mistake to have the Saddledome so far away from the LRT station. Not pleasant to walk there during the -30C windchills...

Big 4 locale would make sense though I hope that they would bury the LRT line all along from 24th ave to12th ave. Since the Stampede Park area is such a big deal, why hide it behind an LRT track and fencing? Not going to happen though.

If it goes to the highly probably spot of two blocks north of the Dome, you're not going to like the walk from Stampede Station then.

[taffeyb]

Wait, your upset that the Saddledome is 400 meters away from the LRT station, and during the walk you have to be outside for a total of 300 meters, even that is covered. I don't think you could do much better than that.

All I'm saying is that since both were built generally at that same time for the '88 Olympics, they should have had the foresight to build them closer together. If they have the opportunity again, they should correct this.

Also, since my spouse has a bad knee which necessitates a $2000 brace, I feel that I can speak up and make the argument that 400 metres is too far...you don't see the blue handicap zones in shopping centres being buried at the back of the parking lots...

[Bunk]

I'll be interested to see what they come up with, if in fact this is true.

Having it accompanying a larger redevelopment makes it sound like they're aiming for West Village - which indicates they'd be looking for a similar Community Revitalization Levy (CRL) scheme that is being used to fund part of the Edmonton Arena (and Calgary's East Village revitalization).

The problem with West Village however is that it requires about $300-$400 million in other infrastructure (realigment of Bow Trail, environmental remediation) to support any significant uses on it. In addition, the last thing that downtown Calgary needs right now is to open up more developable land. We have massive amounts of underdeveloped or undeveloped land - that will last us decades. The City will also not be keen to cannibalize market demand for condos in the East Village. The arena would take up a lot of land there, meaning less land for private development (condos and offices) that would actually pay back the debt.

Someone mentioned East Village. I don't think that'll be the case. It doesn't really fit into the redevelopment plans there. CMLC needs to use the remaining lands to pay back the debt from the CRL.

One area I could see is Remington's Lands just south of the tracks, adjacent to the 4th street SE underpass. Large enough site to accommodate it. It also would tie directly into a planned SELRT station at this location. This fits within the Rivers District CRL area that is paying for the East Village revitalization but is on the Beltline side of the tracks. I suspect they'd ask the City to increase that CRL for another $100 million or so.

Big Four site would be great, although I don't know how other development would accompany it, being on the Stampede grounds.

Another challenge will be provincial funding. I believe what the Oilers/City of Edmonton are looking to tap into is unallocated Municipal Sustainability Initiative (MSI) funding from the Province. The Province will loosen the restrictions on those existing grants and the City will allocate it to the arena project. If the Flames look to the same source of funding, they'll find that Calgary has already allocated every penny of its MSI funding (WLRT being almost half the 10 year amount).



I guess only the Flames know at this point.

[Bunk]

Yes, and no faux historic stampitecture.

Edmonton deserves a lot of credit for a bold design for its arena. It's very sharp.

People associate the saddledome with this western motif (even though that was not the design intention, according to the architect) but it was actually modern for its time. It didn't attempt to look old.

[Manhattanboy]

I know for a fact the Flames are fairly advanced on the design for a new building.

[J epworth]

All I'm saying is that since both were built generally at that same time for the '88 Olympics, they should have had the foresight to build them closer together. If they have the opportunity again, they should correct this.

Also, since my spouse has a bad knee which necessitates a $2000 brace, I feel that I can speak up and make the argument that 400 metres is too far...you don't see the blue handicap zones in shopping centres being buried at the back of the parking lots...

Fair enough, I've never had to deal with that so it doesn't cross my mind, I guess at least it still is a covered walkway all the way to the dome, but I would be surprised if they even put much thought into easier accessibility to benefit people with chronic injuries and disabilities back in 1988.

[Bertuzzied]

I hope they call it the Cow Palace!

[Badgers Nose]

working terlets?

[frinkprof]

I just hope that it's on the LRT line. It was a mistake to have the Saddledome so far away from the LRT station. Not pleasant to walk there during the -30C windchills...

Big 4 locale would make sense though I hope that they would bury the LRT line all along from 24th ave to12th ave. Since the Stampede Park area is such a big deal, why hide it behind an LRT track and fencing? Not going to happen though.

If it goes to the highly probably spot of two blocks north of the Dome, you're not going to like the walk from Stampede Station then.If this is the spot in question, it will be right next to a station on the future southeast line. Here's an edit of getbak's image from a previous thread. Green is the southeast line, red is the station.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/frinkprof/vicparkrev_zps7fddb6a2.jpg

[getbak]

If it goes to the highly probably spot of two blocks north of the Dome, you're not going to like the walk from Stampede Station then.
But the walk from City Hall won't be too bad, and hopefully they can incorporate a +15 through the new Library and NMC buildings.

If the main entrance is at the corner of 4th Street and 10th Ave, the distance from City Hall station to the arena won't be much further than the distance from Victoria Park Station to the Saddledome, and the walk from Victoria Park to the new building also will be close to the same as the current walk (through the new Round-Up Centre and Casino). This would also eliminate the need for people on the W-NE leg of the C-Train to transfer at City Hall to go one station.



As for McMahon, I think the most cost-effective solution would be to do something similar to what they did in Green Bay at Lambeau.

Before:
http://s1.evcdn.com/images/edpborder500/I0-001/003/984/748-2.jpeg_/lambeau-field-48.jpeg

After:
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/501/001/Lambeau_crop_650x440.jpg

The primary seating bowl was generally untouched (although, they added a bunch of new luxury boxes), and they built a huge new concourse attached to the existing building.

A couple of minor enhancements would make McMahon a top-quality CFL building: Replace all bench seating with individual seats; a new HD scoreboard; a bridge connecting the East and West sides of the stadium on the south side; and a significantly larger concourse.

A new stadium would be nice, but it wouldn't be cheap, and the basic shell of McMahon is good. The concourse is just way too small to accommodate the crowds.

[mikephoen]

Maybe they'll build McMahon II on the old 'Dome site once the new arena is completed.

[Matty81]

I'm excited to see the Flames new arena plans. The dome has been great but a landmark modern building would really be cool.

A new large outdoor stadium for 8 or 9 home CFL dates a year can't be a big priority for funding but it would be nice to see. I love McMahon and have had some great times there but it is a dump IMO. With Hamilton, Ottawa, Regina and Winnipeg all getting new stadiums I think McMahon and Molson have the worst facilities in the CFL by a landslide. Then again since Mewata got ploughed under Calgary could use a decent medium sized stadium too and Foothills/Burns is looking rough these days.

[Ducay]

A new stadium would be nice, but it wouldn't be cheap, and the basic shell of McMahon is good. The concourse is just way too small to accommodate the crowds.

Sounds like the Dome too; except the Dome then has two giant Dodge Ram's on display in all of the key pinch points. Gets me every f'n time.

[Muta]

From what I know, there are three schemes currently being considered. Atleast one is a large, multi-use / major redevelopment of a completely new area. All three being considered are downtown in some way, shape or form. Columbus' Nationwide Arena and its surrounding development is a benchmark being analyzed.

What I can say is that Calgary is going to get something pretty damn cool, you can count on that.

[Smartcar]

A new arena would be cool but there are so many better things to spend taxpayer money on it would be hard to justify in the short term. I'd rather see the SE LRT before a new arena. Unless the new arena would be financed without public money, in which case the ticket costs would go through the roof.

[Flames in 07]

Calgary's current stadiums are uniquely awful, not just because the buildings are terrible, but because they are stragically placed to ensure the least amount of bars and restaurants are around. To ensure as bland a pregame experience as a possible can be had. Anyone who doesn't like the idea of a new complex has very, very low standards for professional sports facilities.

[Roughneck]

I was always under the impression that the land deal was already in place: two blocks north of the 'Dome, the Stampede takes the 'Dome land back?

And I was also under the impression that the West Village was a no-go because the cost of excavation is too high because of the contaminated soil that has to get trucked far away.


Wherever it may be hopefully it is something cool. I'm generally against Stempede-ish things, but to put an old twist on a modern arena, use that Nationwide brick design or something similar and replace the brick with sandstone. Brings us back to Calgary's early days and would definitely be unique. Though I don't really know if sandstone is cheap, practical or even available in the quantities to be effective for such a project but I think it'd be a cool look.

[nik-]

From what I know, there are three schemes currently being considered. Atleast one is a large, multi-use / major redevelopment of a completely new area. All three being considered are downtown in some way, shape or form. Columbus' Nationwide Arena and its surrounding development is a benchmark being analyzed.

What I can say is that Calgary is going to get something pretty damn cool, you can count on that.

Have you seen the designs? ... and if so can you relieve the Stampitechture worries? :lol:

[Aeneas]

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.


A few years ago, there was a proposal for just such a venue. 8000 seats accompanied by a hotel and other amenities, to anchor an Anderson Station TOD.

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=ba078e78-4af4-47df-a711-b5b49ec72170&sponsor=

Oh, and cavernous*.

No, he spelled it correctly. He's refering to a specific type of cave...one in Scotland.

[Resolute 14]

When you get right down to it, the only 'Stampitechture' in either the Corral or the Saddledome is the name. The "fears" are rather ridiculous, imo.

[Resolute 14]

Yeah, unfortunately this city just doesn't have any way to justify having two 18-20k seat arenas, especially when one of them is outdated and costs a lot of money to operate.

If anything, what this city needs badly (after a new arena for the Flames) is a multi-pupose, smaller arena. I've been wanting this for years, and it would serve a great purpose.

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.

I'm so tired of concerts in the Dome with 5-6k fans filling up less than half the arena, making for a brutal atmosphere, or playing in the Corral that has to have some of the worst concert acoustics in North America.

There's so many bands that come through town that are too big for Mac Hall/Jubilee, but way too small for the Dome.

The Corral is perfect for this. But given their other expansion plans, I am not sure if the Stampede has the capability of basically gutting and renovating the facility the way Ricoh was done in Toronto.

[EYE_Overstand]

haven't they mentioned that they are looking to build something close to the arena in Columbus and Minnesota ?

[frinkprof]

When you get right down to it, the only 'Stampitecture' in either the Corral or the Saddledome is the name. The "fears" are rather ridiculous, imo.It's not the Corral nor the Saddledome that are the origin of the term "Stampitecture." Actually, it is just about every building that has been built on the Stampede grounds or in the surrounding few blocks in the last decade or so that has. Another non-Calgary-specific term that has been brought up is "faux historicism."

Examples include the BMO Centre,

http://venues.calgarystampede.com/upload/venue_image/169/01/bmo-exterior-web-large.jpg

http://cmsaconvention.goalline.ca/news_images/org_1678/Image/bmo_centre3.jpg

The podium of Arriva

http://www.chrisfenemore.com/assets/images/Buildings/01%20Arriva/03.jpg

http://www.inliv.com/sites/default/files/x134.jpg.pagespeed.ic.JsQTsl-3BR.jpg

The Keynote podium

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2464/3588319346_a0670c4385_b.jpg

http://chocolateandginger.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/img_31071.jpg

The Nuera podium

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/438/dsc0472lw.jpg

http://reinboldengineering.com/dg/plain/galleryzoom/aspect/Nuera_W2.jpg

The signature "Stampitecture" features include orangey-red brick, sandstone trim and cornices. The original thinking (on the part of both the Stampede Board and a certain era of Calgary's planning department, in not-all-that-separate lines of thinking) was to pay homage and highlight the mostly-Edwardian style of architecture that was prevalent in the "Warehouse District" (adjacent to Stampede grounds) when most of it was built and can be found today in the few remaining historical buildings from this era.

The problem with this is that unless the stars align to produce a perfect example of the historical architectural style (no matter what the style is), it usually comes off as fake or phoney, which it is. It's an incredibly hard thing to do to replicate something and have it come off as authentic.

The second major problem is that in creating all these homages, it actually creates a disservice to the remaining, authentic examples that have survived. They don't stand out anymore, and if anything they just blend in. One of the best ways to highlight historical buildings through nearby redevelopment is to build something modern that contrasts with the style of the historical building. Then both buildings stand out.

Here is a 2007 article from Canadian Architect that speaks specifically to the faux-historicism wave which was very prevalent at the time in Calgary.

http://www.canadianarchitect.com/news/as-good-as-new/1000217108/

This post below by Roughneck describes "Stampitecture" pretty well.

I was always under the impression that the land deal was already in place: two blocks north of the 'Dome, the Stampede takes the 'Dome land back?

And I was also under the impression that the West Village was a no-go because the cost of excavation is too high because of the contaminated soil that has to get trucked far away.


Wherever it may be hopefully it is something cool. I'm generally against Stempede-ish things, but to put an old twist on a modern arena, use that Nationwide brick design or something similar and replace the brick with sandstone. Brings us back to Calgary's early days and would definitely be unique. Though I don't really know if sandstone is cheap, practical or even available in the quantities to be effective for such a project but I think it'd be a cool look.I dearly hope that the Flames organization does not follow this trend.

[Tyler]

haven't they mentioned that they are looking to build something close to the arena in Columbus and Minnesota ?

Way to read the thread pal

[mikephoen]

It's not the Corral nor the Saddledome that are the origin of the term "Stampitecture." Actually, it is just about every building that has been built on the Stampede grounds or in the surrounding few blocks in the last decade or so that has. Another non-Calgary-specific term that has been brought up is "faux historicism."

Examples include the BMO Centre,

http://venues.calgarystampede.com/upload/venue_image/169/01/bmo-exterior-web-large.jpg

http://cmsaconvention.goalline.ca/news_images/org_1678/Image/bmo_centre3.jpg

The podium of Arriva

http://www.chrisfenemore.com/assets/images/Buildings/01%20Arriva/03.jpg

http://www.inliv.com/sites/default/files/x134.jpg.pagespeed.ic.JsQTsl-3BR.jpg

The Keynote podium

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2464/3588319346_a0670c4385_b.jpg

http://chocolateandginger.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/img_31071.jpg

The Nuera podium

http://imageshack.us/a/img689/438/dsc0472lw.jpg

http://reinboldengineering.com/dg/plain/galleryzoom/aspect/Nuera_W2.jpg

The signature "Stampitecture" features include orangey-red brick, sandstone trim and cornices. The original thinking (on the part of both the Stampede Board and a certain era of Calgary's planning department, in not-all-that-separate lines of thinking) was to pay homage and highlight the mostly-Edwardian style of architecture that was prevalent in the "Warehouse District" (adjacent to Stampede grounds) when most of it was built and can be found today in the few remaining historical buildings from this era.

The problem with this is that unless the stars align to produce a perfect example of the historical architectural style (no matter what the style is), it usually comes off as fake or phoney, which it is. It's an incredibly hard thing to do to replicate something and have it come off as authentic.

The second major problem is that in creating all these homages, it actually creates a disservice to the remaining, authentic examples that have survived. They don't stand out anymore, and if anything they just blend in. One of the best ways to highlight historical buildings through nearby redevelopment is to build something modern that contrasts with the style of the historical building. Then both buildings stand out.

Here is a 2007 article from Canadian Architect that speaks specifically to the faux-historicism wave which was very prevalent at the time in Calgary.

http://www.canadianarchitect.com/news/as-good-as-new/1000217108/

This post below by Roughneck describes "Stampitecture" pretty well.

I dearly hope that the Flames organization does not follow this trend.

Personally I like all of those buildings. Brick, awesome! Sandstone, awesome!

[dammage79]

Maybe the plan is for a saddledome V2.0 and it will be all shiney and big like Xcel Energy center.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Bring in Libeskind or Hadid and let them to nuts.

New building / architecture is where cities distinguish themselves.

[FlamesAddiction]

I actually really like the saddle design. Not because Calgary's western heritage, but because it's a least different than most of the "big box" style arenas going up these days.

Calgary is one of the most recognizable cities in Canada due to the skyline, which includes the Saddledome. Maybe something like that is trivial in big picture, I don't know.

[Roughneck]

This post below by Roughneck describes "Stampitecture" pretty well.

I dearly hope that the Flames organization does not follow this trend.

If they're going to go with a Nationwide or Xcel design (which is two pretty distinct directions) I'd rather see sandstone than the tired brick (not only around the city, . Most of the Stampitecture around the city doesn't have the City Hall sandstone look, but the 'brick warehouse' look that you mentioned.

[GGG]

I really hope that they keep it on the stampede grounds as losing the stampede concerts would hurt my enjoyment of stampede. Having to go off the grounds to go to these concerts would change the experience and likely hurt stampede attendance.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I really hope that they keep it on the stampede grounds as losing the stampede concerts would hurt my enjoyment of stampede. Having to go off the grounds to go to these concerts would change the experience and likely hurt stampede attendance.

I don't see the downside.

[Nehkara]

As far as I remember from the Season Ticket Holder/Hot House meetings, the Stampede grounds are not a possibility.

The last I heard, as others have mentioned, the plan it use this location:

http://i.imgur.com/DPpemtc.jpg

Some of the reasons for this being that is supposedly along the future SE LRT line and they could use the existing parking lots.

Like many other people here, I also heard KK say they were looking to Nationwide Arena and Xcel Energy Center for their plans.

I'm excited to see the announcement, I will be thrilled to watch the Flames in a new arena, and I will be very sad the last time I walk out of the Saddledome.

[getbak]

Yeah, unfortunately this city just doesn't have any way to justify having two 18-20k seat arenas, especially when one of them is outdated and costs a lot of money to operate.

If anything, what this city needs badly (after a new arena for the Flames) is a multi-pupose, smaller arena. I've been wanting this for years, and it would serve a great purpose.

Make it acoustically pleasing for concerts and modern, but not overly costly/fancy, and use it for all of our sports/concerts that are brutal to watch in a caverness 20k seat arena.

I'm so tired of concerts in the Dome with 5-6k fans filling up less than half the arena, making for a brutal atmosphere, or playing in the Corral that has to have some of the worst concert acoustics in North America.

There's so many bands that come through town that are too big for Mac Hall/Jubilee, but way too small for the Dome.
The new arena will likely have many different configurations available for smaller concerts and stage shows. Most of the new arenas that have been built since the mid-90s have that capability.

Here's the Bell Centre's different configurations: http://www.centrebell.ca/en/page/venue_specifications

It can handle everything from 2,000 seat intimate shows to 20,000 seat concerts.

I read an article a few years ago about the profitability of the MTS Centre in Winnipeg, and it said the key to its success was the ability to host those 3-5000 seat shows. They don't bring in the same size crowds, but there's a lot more tours in that range than there are of the big arena tours.



As for the design, I've thought an homage of sorts to the old #1 Fire Hall would be an interesting look: http://maps.google.ca/?ll=51.047477,-114.060394&spn=0.00158,0.002323&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.047373,-114.060399&panoid=_f_zJCYyJRVTmX7Sw6EvFQ&cbp=12,308.09,,0,2.99

I like the arched doorways and the big sandstone keystones. They could also have a big bell tower out front.

[Bunk]

^ The firehall is a great building and it was of its time - let's preserve and celebrate these buildings. But, how about we build buildings now that are of our time - and try and create the heritage buildings of the future that people will celebrate 100 years from now.

[frinkprof]

The new arena will likely have many different configurations available for smaller concerts and stage shows. Most of the new arenas that have been built since the mid-90s have that capability.

Here's the Bell Centre's different configurations: http://www.centrebell.ca/en/page/venue_specifications

It can handle everything from 2,000 seat intimate shows to 20,000 seat concerts.

I read an article a few years ago about the profitability of the MTS Centre in Winnipeg, and it said the key to its success was the ability to host those 3-5000 seat shows. They don't bring in the same size crowds, but there's a lot more tours in that range than there are of the big arena tours.



As for the design, I've thought an homage of sorts to the old #1 Fire Hall would be an interesting look: http://maps.google.ca/?ll=51.047477,-114.060394&spn=0.00158,0.002323&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.047373,-114.060399&panoid=_f_zJCYyJRVTmX7Sw6EvFQ&cbp=12,308.09,,0,2.99

I like the arched doorways and the big sandstone keystones. They could also have a big bell tower out front.Which will invariably cheapen the value of both the new building and that which it is replicating - in whole or part.

[nik-]

I always liked Allianz Arena in Munich. While the outside is a little bland, I like the fact the they can light up the white exterior in team colours on game night.

[csnarpy]

The one thing I'm curious about is the timeline. KK has always guaranteed that the Flames new rink would open/be finished before the guys up North.

[TorqueDog]

Design aside...

To my mind, three things are critical:
1. Downtown location.
2. Along the C-Train line.
3. Close proximity to restaurants and pubs.

I don't know if we could have actually fit it in that block, but I think the site of the old Herald building (well, the whole block) that Brookfield is working on right now would have been a pretty sweet spot for it. Would have given us more reason to invest in cleaning up that sketchy stretch along 7th Ave in front of The De La Mere Block. Stephen Ave is just a block away, and there are C-Train stations on either side.

[J epworth]

If done right, I think a sandstone style could work well for the arena, it is the local stone. A great example of a new building done right is the John Labatt Centre in London, Ontario. Blends in perfectly with the older architecture of downtown London, and doesn't have a fake replica look at all in my opinion:

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297305979092_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x&stmp=1346358791421

Another arena that rocks the brick theme really well is Ralph Englestad arena at UND:

http://www.prairiebizmag.com/media/full/jpg/2009/07/01/pb709cs1engelstadarena.jpg

[scotty2hotty]

There is an arena in Europe that has the hyperbolic, saddle shape, but it's all glass. I can remember for the life of me where. Any help?

I always thought that one would be a cool and modern take on the saddledome design.

[EddyBeers]

They should base it on the Peace Bridge.

I hope they do, put a cap on public funding for the Flames at 25 million (cost of the peace bridge) and make the Flames find the rest of the money. I am assuming this is what you meant.

[Otto-matic]

If the Stampede grounds are unable to produce what the Flames want, what about the if the new arena is placed by the Sunalta Station? That area could use a huge boost.

[You Need a Thneed]

If the Stampede grounds are unable to produce what the Flames want, what about the if the new arena is placed by the Sunalta Station? That area could use a huge boost.
The west village area that is one of the potential sites being talked about is right beside Sunalra station.

I imagine that the Flames first choice is just north of the saddledome, and the second choice would be in the west village.

[Barnes]

If the Stampede grounds are unable to produce what the Flames want, what about the if the new arena is placed by the Sunalta Station? That area could use a huge boost.

I think it's pretty much a guarantee that it won't be on Stampede grounds. Flames will want the parking revenue.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I hope they do, put a cap on public funding for the Flames at 25 million (cost of the peace bridge) and make the Flames find the rest of the money. I am assuming this is what you meant.

Nope, it's not.

[sureLoss]

Aldermen says Flames Arena plans is news to them

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/526300/aldermen-say-new-calgary-flames-arena-plan-is-news-to-them/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

Ald. Ray Jones, council’s representative on the Saddledome Foundation board, said Sunday he hadn’t heard of any new arena plans and the Flames have not made any requests to the city to that effect.
If such a proposal were to include a request for financial involvement from the city, Jones said the matter should be put to the citizens of Calgary.
“I would love to do it with a plebiscite,” he said. “Let the people of the city decide: Do you want your taxpayer dollars spent on this?”
Ald. Andre Chabot doubted a plebiscite would be necessary, noting polls within the last few years have shown Calgarians are overwhelmingly opposed to putting tax dollars towards a new arena.
“I think the general public is of the opinion that it’s a fairly lucrative industry – certainly insofar as the players and the kind of money they’re making – and they don’t feel that they should be contributing to their profitability,” Chabot said.
The Calgary Flames told Metro on Sunday the club had no immediate comment on the matter.

[sureLoss]

double post

[TurnedTheCorner]

Do your job Jones.

[Flames in 07]

Ald. Ray Jones, council’s representative on the Saddledome Foundation board, said Sunday he hadn’t heard of any new arena plans and the Flames have not made any requests to the city to that effect.
If such a proposal were to include a request for financial involvement from the city, Jones said the matter should be put to the citizens of Calgary.
“I would love to do it with a plebiscite,” he said. “Let the people of the city decide: Do you want your taxpayer dollars spent on this?”
Ald. Andre Chabot doubted a plebiscite would be necessary, noting polls within the last few years have shown Calgarians are overwhelmingly opposed to putting tax dollars towards a new arena.
“I think the general public is of the opinion that it’s a fairly lucrative industry – certainly insofar as the players and the kind of money they’re making – and they don’t feel that they should be contributing to their profitability,” Chabot said.
The Calgary Flames told Metro on Sunday the club had no immediate comment on the matter.[/url]

Too bad all the dumb pet projects these alderman have aren't put to plebiscite.

[jayswin]

I'm kind of hoping they design it similar to the old Kooteny Ice arena in Cranbrook.

-Nice and long
-Looks similar to a barn to keep with our stampede theme
-Ice cold inside, so although it wil be unbearable to sit in, the ice shouldn't be an issue
-Nice plain colours, with two....silver rectangle thingies for added asthetics
-lightposts for parking lot
-couldn't have possibly cost more than $50 000 to build, so no taxpayer money needed

She's a beauty

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS02-1385_tGU8n7ShR8YP1Nn7wb_s8XsQiE6q_TdQVIxbcmOo7fg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=kootenay+ice+arena&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=IWuzoeL1NZ1EoM&tbnid=7fyWuDmaHcReGM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohlarenaguide.com%2Fwhl.htm&ei=VO4FUbu0NevFiwKig4CwCw&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&psig=AFQjCNErF1dA10jnQdBwy2Ijd0vh2pYOwg&ust=1359429589121007)

[Flames in 07]

I'm kind of hoping they design it similar to the old Kooteny Ice arena in Cranbrook.

-Nice and long
-Looks similar to a barn to keep with our stampede theme
-Ice cold inside, so although it wil be unbearable to sit in, the ice shouldn't be an issue
-Nice plain colours, with two....silver rectangle thingies for added asthetics
-lightposts for parking lot
-couldn't have possibly cost more than $50 000 to build, so no taxpayer money needed

She's a beauty


Looks good, that should keep the lowest common denominator, populist alderman happy.

Not using public money because the owners and players of a team will stand to be more profitable, is a silly, petty, misery loves company confirming reason. If someone didn't want to use public money because they believe in a better use then that's different. But who cares if NHL owners are richer, if that's the best use for funds then you allocate in that way. People make money personally as a result of how public funds are used all the time.

[fastpuck]

I'm kind of hoping they design it similar to the old Kooteny Ice arena in Cranbrook.

-Nice and long
-Looks similar to a barn to keep with our stampede theme
-Ice cold inside, so although it wil be unbearable to sit in, the ice shouldn't be an issue
-Nice plain colours, with two....silver rectangle thingies for added asthetics
-lightposts for parking lot
-couldn't have possibly cost more than $50 000 to build, so no taxpayer money needed



She's a beauty

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS02-1385_tGU8n7ShR8YP1Nn7wb_s8XsQiE6q_TdQVIxbcmOo7fg (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=kootenay+ice+arena&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=IWuzoeL1NZ1EoM&tbnid=7fyWuDmaHcReGM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohlarenaguide.com%2Fwhl.htm&ei=VO4FUbu0NevFiwKig4CwCw&bvm=bv.41524429,d.cGE&psig=AFQjCNErF1dA10jnQdBwy2Ijd0vh2pYOwg&ust=1359429589121007)
Oh yah, this is a winner, loading dock entrance that can' t accommodate big trucks and Barny paint job on in the inside. The pool is hideous. But the ice is nice. Total snow job for Cranbrook, through the whole process of plebiscite to awful arena partnership with Keen Rose.

[EddyBeers]

Too bad all the dumb pet projects these alderman have aren't put to plebiscite.

A new arena for the Flames would be the ultimate dumb pet project.

[karl262]

A new arena for the Flames would be the ultimate dumb pet project.

There will be lots of public money spent on the new arena, this shouldn't surprise or shock anyone. Get over it.

[Jbo]

I heard the new arena will be by Millennium park. Make sense with the new Ctrain, but not sure about the parking..?

[You Need a Thneed]

There will be lots of public money spent on the new arena, this shouldn't surprise or shock anyone. Get over it.
Considering that council has no desire to fund any portion of the arena, and the team seemingly has no desire to involve council, I think the chances of public money funding the arena are pretty small.

[Table 5]

Another arena that rocks the brick theme really well is Ralph Englestad arena at UND:
http://www.prairiebizmag.com/media/full/jpg/2009/07/01/pb709cs1engelstadarena.jpg

Sorry, but this is plain awful. Looks like a tacky and cheap version of olden-times....without the charm or quality.

The last place anyone should be looking towards for architectural inspiration is North Dakota.

[OldDutch]

Too bad all the dumb pet projects these alderman have aren't put to plebiscite.

I'm more shocked that everyone's favourite Ward 13 alder-whatever didn't stick/force her nose into this story. It's got completely pointless political fodder written all over it.

[J epworth]

Sorry, but this is plain awful. Looks like a tacky and cheap version of olden-times....without the charm or quality.

The last place anyone should be looking towards for architectural inspiration is North Dakota.

Best arena I've visited (mind you, haven't been to too many), has granite floors, leather and cherry wood for their seats, every inch of that place is made to be the best. Shouldn't knock an arena just because it's in the middle of nowhere America. Never heard tacky and that arena said in the same sentence until your post.

[sureLoss]

Considering that council has no desire to fund any portion of the arena, and the team seemingly has no desire to involve council, I think the chances of public money funding the arena are pretty small.

That would be quite the shocker in Edmonton, and perhaps why the Flames are keeping quiet until the Edmonton Arena deal is finalized. If the Flames are able to finance an arena with little or no public money, the city of Edmonton will want to examine why Katz can't do the same.

[Laner99]

I've been to a few somewhat new arenas in the league (Dallas, LA, Philly) and one older one (MSG) and from what I have seen some must haves include:

Better concourses - I know a couple rinks I've been to have 2 levels of concourses. Making lots of room to move and less lines for the bathroom and beers. This is my biggest issue with the dome.

Larger lower bowl. Again lots of new rinks have massive lower bowls then a smaller 2nd level. The dome is the exact opposite, smaller lower bowl larger 2nd level. I know LA and MSG both have a great set up with nothing but a walkway and about a 7 foot wall separating the 1st and 2nd levels. Done very well. LA also did a great job with its suites being above the 2nd level. Great set up.

Parking - the dome is a ridiculous price and a mess to exit every game. There has to be a better way. And now they are digging up another large section of the lots making it even worse at the dome. Brutal.

Bigger lounge - duttons is about half the size it needs to be.

That's my hit list.

[korzym12]

On New Arena Financing:

The Flames & Oilers should first go to their Internal Governing body: the NHL.

In 2010, the NHL & NBC signed a 10 year, $2 billion broadcasting deal, which provides about $200 million per year to the NHL.

This would be more than enough money to assist their franchises in replacing aging arenas, and if they're not lying, they'll make more money.

MacDonald's has recently done this too. The main company recently renovated all restaurants owned by local MacDonalds franchise owners. It's the exact same situation as the NHL and all of its franchises.

There's absolutely no need to go to the government to find money for these arenas. Other things to consider is that Murray Edwards is a major shareholder of Canadian Natural Resources - one of the heavy weight companies of Canada. Also, if you check Nenshi's twitter account, he has many comments along the lines of "spend half a billion on a new arena to attract a Lady Gaga concert - I don't see it".

[FlameyMcFlameFace]

There is an arena in Europe that has the hyperbolic, saddle shape, but it's all glass. I can remember for the life of me where. Any help?

I always thought that one would be a cool and modern take on the saddledome design.
I really hope your not talking about this lol..
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/699/olympicstadiumcobuildinld1.jpg

I really think its time to move past the "stampede" look, we are now a major city. I would love to see something real modern and world class..

[SebC]

How about plebiscites on fluoride and secondary suites? :whistle:

[scotty2hotty]

Hehe, no.

It's all glass, similar to the Allianz arena, but has a subtle 'saddle' shape. Driving me nuts that I can't remember the arena.

[magicpixels]

I think the plans are going to shock people more than they are thinking. Just to be clear on what to expect.

1. 21,000-22,000 capacity arena with increased luxury boxes and lower bowl space.

2. 15 Story Five Star Hotel.

3. Largest Casino in Calgary.


All 3 make total sense from not only a flames standpoint but for what the building would be used for as well. I'm unsure why other teams have not incorporated a hotel into any of the arenas as of yet considering they have paying patrons on a regular basis from other teams that come through. Not to mention a hotel for visiting road staff that come through for concerts and other things that will use the facility.

The casino is a simple no brainer as they want something with the potential to operate as more than an arena. I suspect they will truly blow anything we've ever seen out of the water.

It won't be built out in the east village either. It will be in the west area of downtown Calgary right near the new LRT lines. They need the LRT more than many people realize.

[Tinordi]

This city has acute transport and re-urbanization challenges, I would hope that municipal decision makers realize that spending money on an arena is a very low priority.

[Hockey Fan #751]

I think the plans are going to shock people more than they are thinking. Just to be clear on what to expect.

1. 21,000-22,000 capacity arena with increased luxury boxes and lower bowl space.

2. 15 Story Five Star Hotel.

3. Largest Casino in Calgary.


All 3 make total sense from not only a flames standpoint but for what the building would be used for as well. I'm unsure why other teams have not incorporated a hotel into any of the arenas as of yet considering they have paying patrons on a regular basis from other teams that come through. Not to mention a hotel for visiting road staff that come through for concerts and other things that will use the facility.

The casino is a simple no brainer as they want something with the potential to operate as more than an arena. I suspect they will truly blow anything we've ever seen out of the water.

It won't be built out in the east village either. It will be in the west area of downtown Calgary right near the new LRT lines. They need the LRT more than many people realize.

Edmonton has a hotel in their development. Staples Center has two in the L.A. Live area, also.

[Freeway]

West end of downtown is a transportation NIGHTMARE.

Smart money from what I've heard is east village spot north of Stampede Park.

[nik-]

There's no way the capacity is going to be over 20000. It's likely going to have less capacity than the Saddledome.

[jayswin]

There's no way the capacity is going to be over 20000. It's likely going to have less capacity than the Saddledome.

You've been magicpixeled.

[polak]

Another downtown Casino?

Altough, Cowboys Casino was an absolute gong show after the game on Saturday so I'm sure there is plenty of cash to be made.

No red brick or standstone please and thank you.

[magicpixels]

There is no way in hell they make it a smaller arena especially when the owners know they can easily sell 20,000 plus tickets a game.

Wouldn't be hard to implement a casino as we don't really have even one single first class casino in our city.

[GGG]

No way capcity will be 21k. Even a slight over supply of tickets kills your ability to charge premium prices and maintain your season ticket base because if you can get tickets to any game you don't need to have season tickets.

What you will see is the elimination of the press level type seating. So all 18 or 19k seats will have much better site lines. I would suspect you will get the newer standard of a lower bowl, a row of boxes, a club level, a row of boxes, a third level that is similar in site lines of the current green seats and the back of the whites.

[Muffins]

Less seats and more luxury boxes seems to be the trend for new arenas.

[JayP]

Looks good, that should keep the lowest common denominator, populist alderman happy.

Not using public money because the owners and players of a team will stand to be more profitable, is a silly, petty, misery loves company confirming reason. If someone didn't want to use public money because they believe in a better use then that's different. But who cares if NHL owners are richer, if that's the best use for funds then you allocate in that way. People make money personally as a result of how public funds are used all the time.

It seems to make perfect sense to me. Why should the city be funding an arena the Flames owners can afford to build themselves and will reap all the profits from? There is basically no financial incentive for the city to be involved.

[JayP]

Less seats and more luxury boxes seems to be the trend for new arenas.

Just another reason why the city shouldn't be involved in the project. Let's use taxpayer money to fund a new arena so less people can enjoy it than the current building and those that can have to pay a premium, alienating the lower and middle classes. And, obviously, none of those additional revenues created by this make it back to city.

[The Fonz]

I wonder which ECHL prospect magicpixels is buddies with and gets all of his insider info from.

[topfiverecords]

It's already been stated officially by K.K. in many places the seating will be less than 19k.

I'd say it's a 10% chance of it being in the west end of downtown. 90% chance it's in the Beltline east of 4th St SE and between the tracks and 12th ave.

[The Fonz]

It's already been stated officially by K.K. in many places the seating will be less than 19k.

Wrong.

22k. Ryan Donally told me.

[FlamingLonghorn]

It seems to make perfect sense to me. Why should the city be funding an arena the Flames owners can afford to build themselves and will reap all the profits from? There is basically no financial incentive for the city to be involved.

Well if the team leaves it costs them jobs, tax money, etc...

[topfiverecords]

Wrong.

22k. Ryan Donally told me.

Are you sure? His brother's wife's friend's cousin from Omaha told me otherwise.

[The Fonz]

Are you sure? His brother's wife's friend's cousin from Omaha told me otherwise.

Guy scored 3 goals for us in Omaha 6 years ago.

I am sure.

[FlamesAddiction]

There is no way in hell they make it a smaller arena especially when the owners know they can easily sell 20,000 plus tickets a game.

Wouldn't be hard to implement a casino as we don't really have even one single first class casino in our city.

Keep in mind that a few thousand of those seats in the Saddledome are relatively low quality. The cost of maintenance in those area is hardly even worth it.

An arena with 18-19,000 quality seats is much more efficient and creates more demand.

[topfiverecords]

Guy scored 3 goals for us in Omaha 6 years ago.

I am sure.

Ok, I trust your source then. I retract my previous comment, I guess my info is incorrect. Sorry guys. New stadium will be 22k.

[You Need a Thneed]

Every row of seats you add around the arena costs slightly more to build than the previous row. The most expensive seats in the arena to build are the ones in the back. meanwhile, those seats bring in the least amount of revenue. Also, it's always best for ticket prices (for the team), if the supply is slightly less than the demand. You don't want to have 21000 seats, when the demand is only 20000.

That's why there won't be 21000 seats in the new arena.

[The Fonz]

And instead of seats the luxury boxes will have horses. So while the building will look modern, you will watch the game and eat your nachos on a horse. This pays homage to the olden days.

[valo403]

Sorry, but this is plain awful. Looks like a tacky and cheap version of olden-times....without the charm or quality.

The last place anyone should be looking towards for architectural inspiration is North Dakota.

I know you hate anything that isn't modern looking, or so it seems, but having seen that rink in person it's actually gorgeous and by no means looks cheap.

[JayP]

Well if the team leaves it costs them jobs, tax money, etc...

The team isn't going to risk leaving a profitable location to move to an unknown like Kansas City. If we were having this discussion in the late 90's it's a lot different. The threat of a team leaving is empty - the NHL would never allow it in first place and the Flames owners would be crazy to consider it.

[valo403]

I've been to a few somewhat new arenas in the league (Dallas, LA, Philly) and one older one (MSG) and from what I have seen some must haves include:

Better concourses - I know a couple rinks I've been to have 2 levels of concourses. Making lots of room to move and less lines for the bathroom and beers. This is my biggest issue with the dome.

Larger lower bowl. Again lots of new rinks have massive lower bowls then a smaller 2nd level. The dome is the exact opposite, smaller lower bowl larger 2nd level. I know LA and MSG both have a great set up with nothing but a walkway and about a 7 foot wall separating the 1st and 2nd levels. Done very well. LA also did a great job with its suites being above the 2nd level. Great set up.

Parking - the dome is a ridiculous price and a mess to exit every game. There has to be a better way. And now they are digging up another large section of the lots making it even worse at the dome. Brutal.

Bigger lounge - duttons is about half the size it needs to be.

That's my hit list.

Not anymore, the renovation completely changed that. The 200 level is now an actual balcony above the lower bowl. I haven't seen a hockey game in the new configuration, but from other events the sightlines are great. The concourses are also much improved.

[valo403]

The team isn't going to risk leaving a profitable location to move to an unknown like Kansas City. If we were having this discussion in the late 90's it's a lot different. The threat of a team leaving is empty - the NHL would never allow it in first place and the Flames owners would be crazy to consider it.

Well you obviously understand that times and circumstances change, so it's odd that you think the current situation couldn't possibly do the same.

[Table 5]

Best arena I've visited (mind you, haven't been to too many), has granite floors, leather and cherry wood for their seats, every inch of that place is made to be the best.

Sounds like a very nice show home. ;)

Personal opinion of course, but I think sports arenas should be future-forward, and showcases of technology and materials. Maybe this arena arena has some nice cherry wood seats, but from the outside it looks like a historicist mall.

The sporting venues that you see going up in Europe and Asia look about 50 years ahead of us. Why can't we do that too? The Saddledome was future-foward.....this new arena should be too. They only come one around every 30 or so years, so should be treated as being potential icons for the city.

This city doesn't give second thought to preserving ACTUAL old buildings, and then spends so much effort on wrapping new things in this fake historical facade. You don't see Italians building everything to look like the Coliseum just because it's in their past. They build things and use materials that are appropriate for their day, which makes all the various older buildings stand out even more so.

[Table 5]

nm double post

[tripin_billie]

While I agree I still hope they keep the Dome around, it's part of Olympic history and helps identify Calgary as cliche as it may be. I sincerely hope they don't go the same sort of direction though with the new arena though, I'm hoping for something along the lines of the arena in Columbus or Dallas but especially Nationwide. Here's some cool facts about it:

Construction
The arena is of a brick design and serves as the center of an entertainment district located about one-half of a mile north of the Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio) State Capitol. Seating capacity is approximately 18,500[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Arena#cite_note-9) for hockey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey), 17,171 for arena football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_football), 19,500 for basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball), and up to 21,000 for concerts.

Facilities
Nationwide Arena houses a smaller ice rink called the OhioHealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OhioHealth) IceHaus (formerly named the CoreComm IceHaus and Dispatch Ice Haus). This facility serves as the practice rink for the Blue Jackets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Blue_Jackets) and is also used for youth hockey games and open skating times for the public. This facility makes Nationwide Arena the first NHL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League) arena with an on-site practice facility and one of only two such facilities in NHL (the other being the Prudential Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudential_Center), home of the New Jersey Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Devils)).

Location
The area surrounding Nationwide Arena, appropriately called the Arena District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_District), houses bars, clubs and a movie theater. The Columbus Clippers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Clippers), a AAA baseball team in the International League, play in the newly constructed Huntington Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Park_%28Columbus,_Ohio%29) nearby. Columbus uses the arena as a drawing point for the city with the other establishments feeding off of the foot traffic. The Lifestyle Communities Pavilion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_Communities_Pavilion) concert venue, and Arena Grand Theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arena_Grand_Theatre&action=edit&redlink=1) adjacent to the Nationwide Arena property, completes the entertainment complex.

I like a lot of the qualities that the BJ's arena takes into consideration. It's just too bad they don't like hockey down there but I think a similar plan would work in a Hockey city like Calgary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg/800px-Columbus-ohio-nationwide-arena.jpg

It's a great facility, but the area is completely dead when there isn't a hockey game going on. Even the movie theatre there is under-utilized. I just hope nobody thinks that creating an "arena district" will magically make the place a destination on none event nights.

[Azure]

No way capcity will be 21k. Even a slight over supply of tickets kills your ability to charge premium prices and maintain your season ticket base because if you can get tickets to any game you don't need to have season tickets.

What you will see is the elimination of the press level type seating. So all 18 or 19k seats will have much better site lines. I would suspect you will get the newer standard of a lower bowl, a row of boxes, a club level, a row of boxes, a third level that is similar in site lines of the current green seats and the back of the whites.

It all depends on what the waiting list for suites and season tickets are.

If there is a 10,000 person waiting list for season tickets, why wouldn't you add a couple thousand more seats? And obviously there is a waiting list for 'suites'...as that is the point for the new arena. More suites.

[rohara66]

It's a great facility, but the area is completely dead when there isn't a hockey game going on. Even the movie theatre there is under-utilized. I just hope nobody thinks that creating an "arena district" will magically make the place a destination on none event nights.

The new dome will 100% have an ‘arena district’.

Maybe not a hotel/casino like the insiders have posted but it will have additional restaurants and bars. And long term a hotel and casino (or whatever they decide on) makes total sense. East village will have loads of people living in it one day, they will sustain the arena district eventually.

[Azure]

Every row of seats you add around the arena costs slightly more to build than the previous row. The most expensive seats in the arena to build are the ones in the back. meanwhile, those seats bring in the least amount of revenue. Also, it's always best for ticket prices (for the team), if the supply is slightly less than the demand. You don't want to have 21000 seats, when the demand is only 20000.

That's why there won't be 21000 seats in the new arena.

The seats above the press boxes cost what? $35 a seat? If you have 18,000 'prime' seats, and 3,000 more 'press box seats'....you're adding approximately. $100,000 per game in ticket revenue, plus concession revenue.

Over 48 games, that is $5 million in additional revenue, and over a 30 year lifespan for the arena, it equals over $150 million in ticket revenue alone. I would imagine concession revenue is also quite a bit per game, as fans up there tend to be rowdy and drink a lot.

Still not worth it? Considering it gives middle/lower class people the ability to buy tickets, I would absolutely say it is worth it. Not everyone can afford to pay $100/game for a single ticket, and if they go with the AVERAGE family of 4, the cost of going to a game can be up to $400. If you buy Sportchek Zone tickets or upper level seating, the cost is around $200/game.

But it all depends on demand. If there is a 10,000 person waiting list for season tickets, and a waiting list for suites....plus good demand for game packs and single game tickets...it is worth it. But obviously if there isn't much demand for more than 19,289 tickets, there isn't much point in adding the additional 2,000 seats.

[Table 5]

The new dome will 100% have an ‘arena district’.

Maybe not a hotel/casino like the insiders have posted but it will have additional restaurants and bars. And long term a hotel and casino (or whatever they decide on) makes total sense. East village will have loads of people living in it one day, they will sustain the arena district eventually.

I feel like Calgary needs another 1 million people to fill all these new master planned "districts" they want to build. East Village, Eau Claire, Victoria Park, West Village, Bridgeland, Curry Barracks, Westbrook etc. I think they are starting to be spread a little too thin, and none of them will reach potential if all are a go.

[korzym12]

Doesn't anyone care that the NHL signed a 10 year, $2 billion contract with NBC in 2010?

This solves all funding shortfalls

[Azure]

Doesn't anyone care that the NHL signed a 10 year, $2 billion contract with NBC in 2010?

This solves all funding shortfalls

Two questions.

Do the Flames get access to any of that money?
And if so, can they use it to fund their arena, versus year-to-year costs of running the team?

[Bunk]

I really hope your not talking about this lol..
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/699/olympicstadiumcobuildinld1.jpg

I really think its time to move past the "stampede" look, we are now a major city. I would love to see something real modern and world class..

There's also Athens' Peace and Friendship Stadium - but no glass:

http://www.aviewoncities.com/img/athens/kvegr1024s.jpg

[rohara66]

I feel like Calgary needs another 1 million people to fill all these new master planned "districts" they want to build. East Village, Eau Claire, Victoria Park, West Village, Bridgeland, Curry Barracks, Westbrook etc. I think they are starting to be spread a little too thin, and none of them will reach potential if all are a go.

I tend to agree that planned districts like those mentioned are a little hokey.

But this arena is going to be downtown (or just on the outskirts) so it’s not going to fail like some of these arena districts that are built out in the middle of nowhere. The entire east end of downtown has people living in it already (with tons more coming) and bringing 20k people to the area a couple times a week will only help it out even more. They don’t even need to build out the district (or whatever you want to call it) immediately, just please allow for a couple restaurants/pubs/bars around the rink so there are some damn option before/after flames games. The current setup of Duttons (good luck getting a table) or the casino (uggg) is downright embarrassing.

[korzym12]

Two questions.

Do the Flames get access to any of that money?
And if so, can they use it to fund their arena, versus year-to-year costs of running the team?

I don't have those details. It's up to the NHL...but if these new arenas really do generate more revenue as all owners claim, then the NHL shouldn't hesitate in providing assistance.

MacDonald's did this too. They paid the costs to modernize the restaurants owned by individual franchise owners.

[troutman]

Doesn't anyone care that the NHL signed a 10 year, $2 billion contract with NBC in 2010?

This solves all funding shortfalls

$6.7 M per year per team, assuming it is all available to be divided.

[getbak]

Two questions.

Do the Flames get access to any of that money?
And if so, can they use it to fund their arena, versus year-to-year costs of running the team?
The Flames will get 1/30th of that money, or $6.67 million per year, but it just goes into their general revenue, and the players essentially get half of it.

[You Need a Thneed]

The seats above the press boxes cost what? $35 a seat? If you have 18,000 'prime' seats, and 3,000 more 'press box seats'....you're adding approximately. $100,000 per game in ticket revenue, plus concession revenue.

Over 48 games, that is $5 million in additional revenue, and over a 30 year lifespan for the arena, it equals over $150 million in ticket revenue alone. I would imagine concession revenue is also quite a bit per game, as fans up there tend to be rowdy and drink a lot.

Still not worth it? Considering it gives middle/lower class people the ability to buy tickets, I would absolutely say it is worth it. Not everyone can afford to pay $100/game for a single ticket, and if they go with the AVERAGE family of 4, the cost of going to a game can be up to $400. If you buy Sportchek Zone tickets or upper level seating, the cost is around $200/game.

But it all depends on demand. If there is a 10,000 person waiting list for season tickets, and a waiting list for suites....plus good demand for game packs and single game tickets...it is worth it. But obviously if there isn't much demand for more than 19,289 tickets, there isn't much point in adding the additional 2,000 seats.

That's assuming you can sell all of the seats, and again, remember, those seats you are adding are the furthest away seats, and may not give a good game experience. You get more revenue from those seats, but you also have to pay more cleaners, consession workers, ushers, etc, to work the extra seats. The seats you add bring in less revenue, but the cost of servicing them is the same as any other seat.

The big reason why those extra seats cost so much to build, is that the roof spans are bigger, the whole building becomes taller. More stairs are required to get people up higher, and the stairs have to be wider, because they must handle more people. More people wanting concessions and bathrooms means that more of those are going to be required, meaning more space down below is required to handle those things. More entry doors, more ticket checkers, etc.

Your calcuations say $150 million in ticket revenue alone, but it might cost an additional $100 million or more just to build those seats.

[Vinny01]

I read an article in an Edmonton newspaper that predicted their population to more than double to 2.3M in 33 years. Seems pretty crazy but I am thinking if that is the case with Edmonton that Calgary will likely grow at the same or greater rate during that time.

[Joborule]

At the rate Calgary is going, it should be at 2 million in 15-20 years.

[GGG]

I am thinking that the economics of that look a tad better.

If the economics of building a new arena don't make sense than don't build a new arena.

[Reaper]

I like the notion of a movie theatre attached to the new arena. If the game is sold out then the option of having one or two theatres attached to the building available to show the game on the big screen could generate some nice coin.

[timun]

I really hope your not talking about this lol..
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/699/olympicstadiumcobuildinld1.jpg

I really think its time to move past the "stampede" look, we are now a major city. I would love to see something real modern and world class..

Maybe he's thinking of the Scandinavium in Gothenburg:

http://www.goteborg2013.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/scandinavium.jpg

[Table 5]

That is the best name for a stadium ever.

[getbak]

Both of those are older than the Saddledome. The one in Russia was built as the pool for the 1980 Olympics and the one in Sweden opened in 1971.

The Velodrome for the London Olympics is probably the nicest modern example of a saddle-shaped building:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01833/velodrome_1833775b.jpg


It's safe to say that the new building in Calgary won't look like that though.

[The Yen Man]

Love the Saddledome, but it's seriously time to move on from that design. Everytime I go to to a Flames game, I feel like I time warped back into the 80's and 90's. I really hope they ditch the faux historical stuff and go with a state of the art, modern looking arena. I've always hated the look of brick. It looks like a house your grandparents would live in.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Love the Saddledome, but it's seriously time to move on from that design. Everytime I go to to a Flames game, I feel like I time warped back into the 80's and 90's. I really hope they ditch the faux historical stuff and go with a state of the art, modern looking arena. I've always hated the look of brick. It looks like a house your grandparents would live in.

Is that because you went on Retro night?

Also, I think the Saddledome was pretty mondern when it was created in 83, I don't think it's intentionally historical, I think it's just old now.

[Boniman]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think one of the main reasons Calgary loses out to Edmonton for many large concerts is the Saddledome roof structure cannot support the rigging due to its shape. A future building probably should steer away from that. Like I said I don't know this for a fact.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

I don't know, I'd still like them to stick with the saddle shape building, but more much more modern.

It's distinctly Western, which is a huge part of the Calgary culture. I say embrace it. Calgarians shouldn't try and act like their New Yorkers.

What would say Calgary is now a major hub in western Canada more than sticking with the cowboy culture, but updating the building to look modern?

[polak]

No. More. Cowboy. Crap.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I don't know, I'd still like them to stick with the saddle shape building, but more much more modern.

It's distinctly Western, which is a huge part of the Calgary culture. I say embrace it. Calgarians shouldn't try and act like their New Yorkers.

What would say Calgary is now a major hub in western Canada more than sticking with the cowboy culture, but updating the building to look modern?
Yah, but that shape causes problems, and I'm all for embracing our Western heritage, but I don't look at the Dome and think "Saddle", except for the fact it's in the name.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I just hope whatever they build is MAGNIFICENT!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

No. More. Cowboy. Crap.
You. Should. Likely. Move. Cowboy. Crap. Is. Part. Of. This. Cities. Culture. And. Heritage. You. Aren't. Going. To. Escape. It. If. You. Stay. Here.

[polak]

You. Should. Likely. Move. Cowboy. Crap. Is. Part. Of. This. Cities. Culture. And. Heritage. You. Aren't. Going. To. Escape. It. If. You. Stay. Here.

Yeah, cause we haven't milked it enough :rolleyes:

Maybe we can build an arena in the shape of John Wayne and the area near his junk can be called the "Ranchmans & Country 105 Saloon".

[rohara66]

Has it been announced or released who the Architect is?

[TurnedTheCorner]

sounds like a very nice show home. ;)
:#1:

[nik-]

You. Should. Likely. Move. Cowboy. Crap. Is. Part. Of. This. Cities. Culture. And. Heritage. You. Aren't. Going. To. Escape. It. If. You. Stay. Here.

The Victorian era was part of London's heritage and you don't see them going to that well over and over. This city has more going for it, we're not Tombstone Arizona.

[VictoryJuice]

dasboot

[JayP]

Well you obviously understand that times and circumstances change, so it's odd that you think the current situation couldn't possibly do the same.

When did I say it wouldn't?

To me it's pretty evident that the Flames asking for public money for a new arena when the dollar is doing poorly and the team is struggling to compete financially is a very different scenario than today. In that case, the threat of the team leaving was actual very real and using public money to keep the team in this city holds a lot of value.

[North East Goon]

Going to be tough to top that Edmonton design, it really is pretty unique.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

The Victorian era was part of London's heritage and you don't see them going to that well over and over. This city has more going for it, we're not Tombstone Arizona.
Explain to me how this city goes to the well with it over and over? Because one rink is named the Saddle Dome.

And for the record, London does nothing but MILK the Monarchy left right and centre. Absolutely that city have more going for it, but they embrace their heritage and draw it creates. Calgary should do the same with the feature of this city that makes it different than every other city in this country.

Believe me I'm not advocationg for everything to be Western themed, but It's not like every second thing in this city is Cowboy this and Ranchhand that. Clearly you see an over index of that on the Stampede grounds.........but what do you expect. And outside of the name of the Dome, what exactly is "Cowboy" about the Saddledome? I guess that one lounge is called the Saddleroom, and they have 2 western nights a year?

[polak]

If they did do a bigger copy if the Velodrome in London then I'd be happy.

No stupid red brick.
No stupid sandstone.
No dumb western themed name.
No horse statues.
No "accountant architecture".

There's a reason why the term "stampitecture" isn't a compliment.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

If Calgary moves away from their Western heritage, they risk becoming just another bland vague city with little to no culture.

Let's face it, it's Calgary identity whether Calgarians like it or not.

Vancouver is an artsy city. Toronto is a business city. Montreal is sort of an old world artsy city. Edmonton is... a toilet.

I get the problems with the Saddledome's roof, but it's just so distinctly Southern Alberta. As a person who has been to Calgary once in my life, I love it.

[polak]

We have the stampede.

Aslong as that keeps going, that is more then enough "cowboy" culture for this city to maintain it's label as a distinctly redneck town.

Nice glass and materials please. PLEASE.

[getbak]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think one of the main reasons Calgary loses out to Edmonton for many large concerts is the Saddledome roof structure cannot support the rigging due to its shape. A future building probably should steer away from that. Like I said I don't know this for a fact.
I think it's more the fact that the new scoreboard is so large that it limits the types of shows that can fit now. There's only 32 feet of clearance under the scoreboard: http://www.scotiabanksaddledome.com/site/saddledome/?ID=44

That's less than the Enmax Centre in Lethbridge, which has a maximum trim height under the scoreboard of 36'9", in a significantly smaller building: http://www.enmaxcentre.ca/about-the-facility-detail.asp?SubID=2

The older smaller scoreboards could be lifted up into the catwalk to give the full 89 feet of clearance for the whole arena floor.

Now, any show that has a centre stage set-up can't play the Saddledome.


Major tours bypassing Calgary didn't really become a problem until the new scoreboard was installed a few years ago.

[868904]

No. More. Cowboy. Crap.

I think there should be more cowboy crap. Change the name from Flames to Cowboys!!

Flames makes no sense anyways.

:D

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

We have the stampede.

Aslong as that keeps going, that is more then enough "cowboy" culture for this city to maintain it's label as a distinctly redneck town.

Nice glass and materials please. PLEASE.

Two very distinct entities, but I can see your concern if you are un-able to distinguish between the two.

[valo403]

Explain to me how this city goes to the well with it over and over? Because one rink is named the Saddle Dome.

And for the record, London does nothing but MILK the Monarchy left right and centre. Absolutely that city have more going for it, but they embrace their heritage and draw it creates. Calgary should do the same with the feature of this city that makes it different than every other city in this country.

Believe me I'm not advocationg for everything to be Western themed, but It's not like every second thing in this city is Cowboy this and Ranchhand that. Clearly you see an over index of that on the Stampede grounds.........but what do you expect. And outside of the name of the Dome, what exactly is "Cowboy" about the Saddledome? I guess that one lounge is called the Saddleroom, and they have 2 western nights a year?

As discussed earlier, the Saddledome isn't what people are talkign about with the western theme, it's the rest of the Stampitecture that has popped up around the city. I agree that more faux-historic buildings would be a terrible idea. It worked in Baltimore with Camden Yards and then everyone jumped on board, only to realize that for the most part it winds up looking pretty average.

As for London, I don't believe any of the many venues built for the Olympics were Victorian in style, as that would have been ridiculous. London milks it's actual history, it doesn't build new buildings and pretend they're historic.

[valo403]

If Calgary moves away from their Western heritage, they risk becoming just another bland vague city with little to no culture.

Let's face it, it's Calgary identity whether Calgarians like it or not.

Vancouver is an artsy city. Toronto is a business city. Montreal is sort of an old world artsy city. Edmonton is... a toilet.

I get the problems with the Saddledome's roof, but it's just so distinctly Southern Alberta. As a person who has been to Calgary once in my life, I love it.

If this thread has shown me anything, it's that this particular roof shape isn't actually disctinclty Calgary at all. Apparently it's been used many times, and well before the Saddledome too. It's a cool building, but let's not get carried away with it being a defining or irreplaceable feature.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

As discussed earlier, the Saddledome isn't what people are talkign about with the western theme, it's the rest of the Stampitecture that has popped up around the city. I agree that more faux-historic buildings would be a terrible idea. It worked in Baltimore with Camden Yards and then everyone jumped on board, only to realize that for the most part it winds up looking pretty average.

As for London, I don't believe any of the many venues built for the Olympics were Victorian in style, as that would have been ridiculous. London milks it's actual history, it doesn't build new buildings and pretend they're historic.

I agree that would have been rediculous. Can someone explain to me though, how the Saddledome was built in a "Western" style? It's not a fircken log cabin or chuck wagon tarp? It's a weird shape, and someone decided to NAME it, the Saddledome, but even back in they, no one was constructing a historic western building, nothing in or outside the Saddledome looks remotely western.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The fact is whether the new arena has a traditional roof or the stupid cowboy hat roof will be dependant on one thing: money. If the roof is indeed the reason (and it is, we know this) so many concerts avoid Calgary, building a new arena in the mold of the same arena that is costing you money is...######ed, and will not happen. Any new building will be built to attract more events, not the same or fewer.

So I'd be stunned and incredibly disappointed if they built the same arena with basically more luxury boxes. The fans would be such big losers in that scenario, I mean we'll get the same events, in a lower capacity building, with higher ticket prices. Freaking brutal.

[valo403]

I agree that would have been rediculous. Can someone explain to me though, how the Saddledome was built in a "Western" style? It's not a fircken log cabin or chuck wagon tarp? It's a weird shape, and someone decided to NAME it, the Saddledome, but even back in they, no one was constructing a historic western building, nothing in or outside the Saddledome looks remotely western.

Nobody is saying the Saddledome is western in style. We are discussing a new arena.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

We have the stampede.

Aslong as that keeps going, that is more then enough "cowboy" culture for this city to maintain it's label as a distinctly redneck town.

Nice glass and materials please. PLEASE.

What if they make it with nice glass then name it the "Glass Ranch"? ;)

[polak]

I actually don't have any issues with the shape or general arcitechture of the Saddledome. I mean, it was built in the 80's so it's aged look is forgivable.

My main worry is that -like with a lot of projects at the Stampede grounds and surrounding area- the new arena will fall in line with the rest of the crap being built there.

Hopefully the news that it might be built on the other side of downtown will allow them to escape that curse.

What if they make it with nice glass then name it the "Glass Ranch"? ;)

Have you ever played those "Rampage" video games? That will happen.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

The 'Dome is more Western shaped than any other arena in the league. I get there are other arenas around the world that are shaped like the Saddledome, but it exhibits more of the city/area's Western heritage than, say, Staple's Centre or MTS.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Nobody is saying the Saddledome is western in style. We are discussing a new arena.
I know, but where is the fear coming from that they are going to try and make it look like a log cabin or fort? Who's even suggesting that, maybe I missed it?

[valo403]

I know, but where is the fear coming from that they are going to try and make it look like a log cabin or fort? Who's even suggesting that, maybe I missed it?

I think it's based on the recent developments in that area, which largely seem to follow that theme. I'd say based on the tone of the posters who appear to have some sort of inside scoop that there's little to no chance of that fear becoming reality.

[Joborule]

If Calgary moves away from their Western heritage, they risk becoming just another bland vague city with little to no culture.

Let's face it, it's Calgary identity whether Calgarians like it or not.

Vancouver is an artsy city. Toronto is a business city. Montreal is sort of an old world artsy city. Edmonton is... a toilet.

I get the problems with the Saddledome's roof, but it's just so distinctly Southern Alberta. As a person who has been to Calgary once in my life, I love it.

Why not make every single building in Calgary with Stampitecture then? It's part of our culture.

The new arena shouldn't have Stampitecutre forced. The only way Stampitecture or anything western theme should be present on the new arena is if it ADDS to it. If you can do a comparison with it, and without it, and the former looks better, than you add it in. Otherwise you go for the best looking venue you can pull off. This is going to be one of Calgary's most iconic buildings for the next 30 or so years, so build something that will stand the test of time, rather than cheapen it out just to add a little bit of 'west' to it when it provides nothing.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I actually don't have any issues with the shape or general arcitechture of the Saddledome. I mean, it was built in the 80's so it's aged look is forgivable.

My main worry is that -like with a lot of projects at the Stampede grounds and surrounding area- the new arena will fall in line with the rest of the crap being built there.

Hopefully the news that it might be built on the other side of downtown will allow them to escape that curse.



Have you ever played those "Rampage" video games? That will happen.

The new BMO centre and what is now Cowboys casino looks good for what they are. If the new rink is build down on the grounds, it should likely match the surroundings versus stick out like a sore thumb for what is around it. Not saying it needs to imitate the new BMO centre, but if that's what people are worried about and are calling "Cowboy", this is much about nothing.

[valo403]

The 'Dome is more Western shaped than any other arena in the league. I get there are other arenas around the world that are shaped like the Saddledome, but it exhibits more of the city/area's Western heritage than, say, Staple's Centre or MTS.

If it wasn't named the saddledome people would barely equate it with any sort of western ideal. Do you think people in Sweden or Russia think their stadiums, with near identical roofs, represent some sort of cowboy image?

Calgary has some cowboy heritage, and that's great, but it's far more than that. Refusing to acknowledge that is a great way to leave the city with a reputation as some goofball cowtown, which it really doesn't deserve.

[polak]

I know, but where is the fear coming from that they are going to try and make it look like a log cabin or fort? Who's even suggesting that, maybe I missed it?

The pictures that were posted earlier of Nationwide Arena and the UND rink are what sparked my fear.

Those are EXACTLY the style I think we will end up with if we go with the Stampede-grounds theme.

Gross:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/content/Image/05-29-2009/Nationwide-Arena.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DSSkdHtJgqA/UFSiPj0k9iI/AAAAAAAAAes/v6orGUL8Ex4/s1600/ralph_engelstad_arena_medium.jpg

[valo403]

The new BMO centre and what is now Cowboys casino looks good for what they are. If the new rink is build down on the grounds, it should likely match the surroundings versus stick out like a sore thumb for what is around it. Not saying it needs to imitate the new BMO centre, but if that's what people are worried about and are calling "Cowboy", this is much about nothing.

That building is awful

[polak]

The new BMO centre and what is now Cowboys casino looks good for what they are. If the new rink is build down on the grounds, it should likely match the surroundings versus stick out like a sore thumb for what is around it. Not saying it needs to imitate the new BMO centre, but if that's what people are worried about and are calling "Cowboy", this is much about nothing.

Yeah... Why build something that stands out :rolleyes:

My fear exactly.

[SuperMatt18]

I always liked the Sprint Center in Kansas City

http://realmedia.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/17/sprint_center_lr.jpg

Surprised nobody has taken a chance on moving a team there (NBA or NHL) considering they were offering a free lease if I am not mistaken.

I thought the NHL should move the Coyotes there temporarily until the Quebec/Seattle rink is ready. Kind of a test market to see if something may work in Kansas.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

That building is awful
Well now we are into opinion territory. Polak just posted some pictures of Nationwide, and I can see the correlation he's making to the new structures down on the Stampede ground. For the record, I do not like the UND rink, but that likely has nothing to do with the type of "brick" used to be honest, because I think Nationwide looks pretty good using the same brick, it has to do with a lot more architecturally than the brick.

But fair, if you don't like that brick, and they go with that, entitled not to like it, I couldn't care less, and I don't for a second think that brick is "western" themed. Stick Nationwide arean in Toronto and no one calls it western themed, stick it here, and I guess folks will say it's a "western them rink" but it really isn't. Don't care much what brick they sue on the outside, some will like it, some won't, more concerned with the overall shape, design, layout, glass ratio etc....

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I always liked the Sprint Center in Kansas City

http://realmedia.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/17/sprint_center_lr.jpg

Surprised nobody has taken a chance on moving a team there (NBA or NHL) considering they were offering a free lease if I am not mistaken.

I thought the NHL should move the Coyotes there temporarily until the Quebec/Seattle rink is ready. Kind of a test market to see if something may work in Kansas.

Stick some Nationwide coloured brick on that sprint entrance way and people will tell you thats a "Cowboy" rink ;)

That rink looks slick though, really like it.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

If it wasn't named the saddledome people would barely equate it with any sort of western ideal. Do you think people in Sweden or Russia think their stadiums, with near identical roofs, represent some sort of cowboy image?

Calgary has some cowboy heritage, and that's great, but it's far more than that. Refusing to acknowledge that is a great way to leave the city with a reputation as some goofball cowtown, which it really doesn't deserve.

Fair enough.

I still think it's cool to have a saddle-shaped building in a western heritage city. That's all I'm saying. As Joborule posted earlier, I'd like to see another western theme if it adds to the new building.

But people have brought up good reasons not to go with the saddle shape again. Roof issues, monotony of building the exact same thing, having a unique arena for the next 30+ years that will stand the test of time.

I guess as an 'outsider' who has lived in BC for my whole life, I see the 'Dome and its shape (regardless of the name) as a unique identifier of the city and its heritage. There are so many plain looking arenas around the league and I just don't want to see Calgary turn into a plain bland vague city without an idiosyncratic feature to it.

For example, can you tell me what St. Louis' unique feature is? Phoenix? Minneapolis? Again, I just want to see Calgary keep it's heritage and all I see is Calgarians getting sick of the 'cowtown' stigma.

[polak]

As much as it pains me to say it, the Oilers NAILED their arena design.

Modern and Sleek.

I'd love something that rivals that... A lot of the European rinks have some interesting designs that I wouldn't mind seeing blown up to NHL size...

[SuperMatt18]

Just to add to that picture is a set of the opening from Flickr.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrism70/sets/72157602368883176/detail/?page=2

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

As much as it pains me to say it, the Oilers NAILED their arena design.

Modern and Sleek.

I'd love something that rivals that... A lot of the European rinks have some interesting designs that I wouldn't mind seeing blown up to NHL size...

http://www.archello.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/header_detail_large/story/media/KSP_Tianjin_Sports_Arena_exterior.jpg
Is that the Oilers new rink? If so, it's Star Wars themed. That's that thing that picks up C3PO and R2-D2 in the desert I think.

[polak]

Is that the Oilers new rink? If so, it's Star Wars themed. That's that thing that picks up C3PO and R2-D2 in the desert I think.

Thats the wrong pic. I can't get the link to work... Weird.

Either way. Google some european rinks and stadiums. There are some awesome designs.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Is that the Oilers new rink? If so, it's Star Wars themed. That's that thing that picks up C3PO and R2-D2 in the desert I think.

No, I think this is the new Oilers arena:

http://1.cdn.nhle.com/oilers/images/upload/2012/05/CS_start_full.jpg

[valo403]

Well now we are into opinion territory. Polak just posted some pictures of Nationwide, and I can see the correlation he's making to the new structures down on the Stampede ground. For the record, I do not like the UND rink, but that likely has nothing to do with the type of "brick" used to be honest, because I think Nationwide looks pretty good using the same brick, it has to do with a lot more architecturally than the brick.

But fair, if you don't like that brick, and they go with that, entitled not to like it, I couldn't care less, and I don't for a second think that brick is "western" themed. Stick Nationwide arean in Toronto and no one calls it western themed, stick it here, and I guess folks will say it's a "western them rink" but it really isn't. Don't care much what brick they sue on the outside, some will like it, some won't, more concerned with the overall shape, design, layout, glass ratio etc....

Nothing to do with the brick, everything to do with the last line. Just an uninspired building, which is fine for small scale projects but not for something like an NHL arena. I think Nationwide is nice, a bit boring in some respects but overall not a bad looking building.

I like the UND arena for it's quality, but I don't think it would translate too a larger scale very well.

[Azure]

That's assuming you can sell all of the seats, and again, remember, those seats you are adding are the furthest away seats, and may not give a good game experience. You get more revenue from those seats, but you also have to pay more cleaners, consession workers, ushers, etc, to work the extra seats. The seats you add bring in less revenue, but the cost of servicing them is the same as any other seat.

The big reason why those extra seats cost so much to build, is that the roof spans are bigger, the whole building becomes taller. More stairs are required to get people up higher, and the stairs have to be wider, because they must handle more people. More people wanting concessions and bathrooms means that more of those are going to be required, meaning more space down below is required to handle those things. More entry doors, more ticket checkers, etc.

Your calcuations say $150 million in ticket revenue alone, but it might cost an additional $100 million or more just to build those seats.

Doesn't the Bell Centre in Montreal have 21,000 seats? And from what I've heard, most of them, including the 'bad' seats have a very good view of the ice. Similar to what the MTS Centre has here in Winnipeg. The seat at the VERY top has a spectacular view. Obviously it is different considering there are only 15,000 seats in total, but I'd imagine you could create a pretty good vantage points.

Of course that has nothing to do with demand, and whether or not the Flames can fill those seats. I'd imagine they have run those numbers and know what they want.

As for the cost, if the total cost of the building is $500 million, isn't it a bit extreme to suggest that the cost of adding 2,000 extra seats would be $100 million? Unless you're talking about $100 million over 30 years. If so, I'd imagine that if you can create a return of $200 million....with ticket revenue and concession sales, wouldn't it be worth it?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames go with 18,000 seats and 3x the number of suites. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they go with 21,000 seats similar to the Bell Centre.

[valo403]

Fair enough.

I still think it's cool to have a saddle-shaped building in a western heritage city. That's all I'm saying. As Joborule posted earlier, I'd like to see another western theme if it adds to the new building.

But people have brought up good reasons not to go with the saddle shape again. Roof issues, monotony of building the exact same thing, having a unique arena for the next 30+ years that will stand the test of time.

I guess as an 'outsider' who has lived in BC for my whole life, I see the 'Dome and its shape (regardless of the name) as a unique identifier of the city and its heritage. There are so many plain looking arenas around the league and I just don't want to see Calgary turn into a plain bland vague city without an idiosyncratic feature to it.

For example, can you tell me what St. Louis' unique feature is? Phoenix? Minneapolis? Again, I just want to see Calgary keep it's heritage and all I see is Calgarians getting sick of the 'cowtown' stigma.

The thing is that unless you watched the Flames a lot, or knew the city, you likely wouldn't be able to answer that question about the Dome either (assuming the name doesn't tip you off).

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Alright, the more and more I look at the possibilities that Calgary has... I'm more on board with going all glassy.

I'm still holding strong onto Calgary maintaining their western heritage though, but my god, some of these European arenas are beautiful!

[valo403]

Doesn't the Bell Centre in Montreal have 21,000 seats? And from what I've heard, most of them, including the 'bad' seats have a very good view of the ice. Similar to what the MTS Centre has here in Winnipeg. The seat at the VERY top has a spectacular view. Obviously it is different considering there are only 15,000 seats in total, but I'd imagine you could create a pretty good vantage points.

Of course that has nothing to do with demand, and whether or not the Flames can fill those seats. I'd imagine they have run those numbers and know what they want.

As for the cost, if the total cost of the building is $500 million, isn't it a bit extreme to suggest that the cost of adding 2,000 extra seats would be $100 million? Unless you're talking about $100 million over 30 years. If so, I'd imagine that if you can create a return of $200 million....with ticket revenue and concession sales, wouldn't it be worth it?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames go with 18,000 seats and 3x the number of suites. But I also wouldn't be surprised if they go with 21,000 seats similar to the Bell Centre.

Not at all. Like he said before, you're talking about expanding the roof span, increasing the height, increasing the capacity of all of the smaller pieces of infrastructure etc. It would make sense to me that adding 2000 seats would jump costs up around that much.

[Azure]

Looking at ticket pricing for the Bell Centre, the lowest price for an adult is $42. I'd imagine those seats have the worst sightline.

With those pricing, an additional 3,000 seats, to bring the total from 18,000 which many are suggesting, to 21,000...which is what the Bell Centre has, brings in an additional $181 million over 30 years. Add the concession revenues, and you're looking at an easy $200 million MORE in revenue over 30 years. Probably averages out to $7 million per year. Now, I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of additional cost to the building the Flames will build, but the cost of the Bell Centre in 1996 was $270 million. According to my quick calculations, that is VERY close to the revenue generated by the additional 3,000 seats.

Considering of course that there are probably not a lot of seats available for $42, and the next price level is $60.

Just something to think about.

[Azure]

Not at all. Like he said before, you're talking about expanding the roof span, increasing the height, increasing the capacity of all of the smaller pieces of infrastructure etc. It would make sense to me that adding 2000 seats would jump costs up around that much.

Could be.

But the Bell Centre has the 21,000 capacity, and it only cost $270 million to build. And that is in 'kick-back' Quebec. ;)

I have no idea what the total cost of the new building in Calgary will be. For all we know you're are entirely correct.

I have a hard time believing that it couldn't pay off though. From what I recall, ticket demand has been pretty high in Calgary since the lockout in 2005.

[nik-]

Looking at ticket pricing for the Bell Centre, the lowest price for an adult is $42. I'd imagine those seats have the worst sightline.

With those pricing, an additional 3,000 seats, to bring the total from 18,000 which many are suggesting, to 21,000...which is what the Bell Centre has, brings in an additional $181 million over 30 years. Add the concession revenues, and you're looking at an easy $200 million MORE in revenue over 30 years. Probably averages out to $7 million per year. Now, I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of additional cost to the building the Flames will build, but the cost of the Bell Centre in 1996 was $270 million. According to my quick calculations, that is VERY close to the revenue generated by the additional 3,000 seats.

Considering of course that there are probably not a lot of seats available for $42, and the next price level is $60.

Just something to think about.

That's Montreal. Calgary needs the seat count down to keep the demand up.

[Azure]

Someone posted and article a while back about Calgary's history and apparently cowboy stuff isn't even really our 'heritage', it was largely created by Weadick to sell tickets to his stampede. Calgary was always an uppity, less blue collar town, meaning the cowboy thing always has been fake. So the cowboy architecture (that the saddledome isn't really) is a faux homage to a faux heritage.

The monarchy/victorian period existed in London, Calgary cowboy times did not. Why not an homage to our Game of Thrones past, that also did not exist?

Maybe I am misremembering the article.

Or you could look at the fact that Calgary is in Southern Alberta which is an extremely large farming/ranching community, and has been for years.

The heritage is there.....but its not as big as people think it is.

At the end of the day, I think the Flames could come up with a lot cooler design.

[The Reverend]

Alright, the more and more I look at the possibilities that Calgary has... I'm more on board with going all glassy.

I'm still holding strong onto Calgary maintaining their western heritage though, but my god, some of these European arenas are beautiful!

I agree with the "glass" part. My main issue with brick and sandstone buildings in Calgary is that when a chinook hits and the roads turn to mud, it seems like EVERYTHING is dusty and depressing. The landscape just melts right into the dead grass, empty tree branches and all the horrible brick and sandstone buildings.

[Azure]

That's Montreal. Calgary needs the seat count down to keep the demand up.

How do we know that the demand for single game tickets wouldn't be very high with 1,500 more seats?

Calgary hasn't had a problem selling out 19,289 since 2004.

City is growing, league is strong....and if the Flames remain a competitive team, I don't see why should have a problem with demand.

[nik-]

How do we know that the demand for single game tickets wouldn't be very high with 1,500 more seats?

Calgary hasn't had a problem selling out 19,289 since 2004.

City is growing, league is strong....and if the Flames remain a competitive team, I don't see why should have a problem with demand.

Haven't they? Been to a game lately? There are a lot of empty seats. That's the precursor to the "sellout" streak ending. Unless they just keep giving the tickets away or buying the remainder like they likely have been.

They don't want a 21000 seat arena with 16000 people in it if this dip continues.

[valo403]

Looking at ticket pricing for the Bell Centre, the lowest price for an adult is $42. I'd imagine those seats have the worst sightline.

With those pricing, an additional 3,000 seats, to bring the total from 18,000 which many are suggesting, to 21,000...which is what the Bell Centre has, brings in an additional $181 million over 30 years. Add the concession revenues, and you're looking at an easy $200 million MORE in revenue over 30 years. Probably averages out to $7 million per year. Now, I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of additional cost to the building the Flames will build, but the cost of the Bell Centre in 1996 was $270 million. According to my quick calculations, that is VERY close to the revenue generated by the additional 3,000 seats.

Considering of course that there are probably not a lot of seats available for $42, and the next price level is $60.

Just something to think about.

The whole scenario presumes that there is demand that is sufficient to not only fill those seats, but to keep enough people out to support season ticket sales and price levels. I don't think Calgary and Montreal are comparable in that respect.

[Bigtime]

It's been said a hundred times in this thread, give me something nice and modern and daring and stay the heck away from faux-historic and Stampitecture.

I also believe location choice number one will be north of 12th avenue on the Remington lands east of arriVa. It will tie in perfectly with the East Village and the eventual SELRT running right next to it.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'll be surpised if capacity actually rises in a new building. Wouldn't be shocked if a new building was in the 17,500 range. You have to remember Calgary is, outside maybe Toronto, pretty much the corporate capital of Canada. Luxury boxes are worth way, way more than seats, and I'm guessing that it wouldn't be hard in this city to fill every luxury box. Whatever the new building is, more luxury boxes is the primary driver, not more seats.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Some nice ones:

Barclay's Centre in Brooklyn. I love the shape, but not too sure what to think about the wood strips yet.

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/2012/09/2Barclays/BarclaysCenter1_SS.jpg

Copenhagen Arena Proposal:

http://ad009cdnb.archdaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1339171813-8c5520-3xn-cpharena4-528x280.jpghttp://ad009cdnb.archdaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1339171791-e19875-3xn-chparena2-528x288.jpg

Arena Zagreb in Croatia:

http://www.topboxdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Arena-Zagreb-Design-by-UPI-2M-588x294.jpghttp://designcrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/arena3.jpg

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Someone posted and article a while back about Calgary's history and apparently cowboy stuff isn't even really our 'heritage', it was largely created by Weadick to sell tickets to his stampede. Calgary was always an uppity, less blue collar town, meaning the cowboy thing always has been fake. So the cowboy architecture (that the saddledome isn't really) is a faux homage to a faux heritage.

The monarchy/victorian period existed in London, Calgary cowboy times did not. Why not an homage to our Game of Thrones past, that also did not exist?

Maybe I am misremembering the article.

The saddlethrone.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/gamingreviewimages/game-of-thrones-pc/game-of-thrones-pc.jpg

Well even if that were true, the fact that Weadick created that theme and it happened a 100 years ago would make it part of our history. The history of cities as young as Calgary aren't going to go back as far as they do in London, no where near as close, but doesn't change the fact that it's part of the history.

But as someone else pointed out, Ranching and Farming is absolutely a part of Southern Alberta's history, not sure how that's deniable. If Weadick was the first to potentially over emphasize it for profit 100 years ago, so be it, doesn't stop it from being true, and if over the past 100 years the city has chosen to embrace it as the culture and and create the Stampede into what it is today, that on it's own warrants merit as history and culture of this city.

[SuperMatt18]

Looking at ticket pricing for the Bell Centre, the lowest price for an adult is $42. I'd imagine those seats have the worst sightline.

With those pricing, an additional 3,000 seats, to bring the total from 18,000 which many are suggesting, to 21,000...which is what the Bell Centre has, brings in an additional $181 million over 30 years. Add the concession revenues, and you're looking at an easy $200 million MORE in revenue over 30 years. Probably averages out to $7 million per year. Now, I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of additional cost to the building the Flames will build, but the cost of the Bell Centre in 1996 was $270 million. According to my quick calculations, that is VERY close to the revenue generated by the additional 3,000 seats.

Considering of course that there are probably not a lot of seats available for $42, and the next price level is $60.

Just something to think about.

I've sat in those $42 seats at the Bell Center, and was in the last row of the building. The sight lines were still fine and were much better then the Press Level in Calgary.

[Bigtime]

Some have mentioned the article about the history of Calgary and the "myth" of the Stampede heritage, here is the article in question by Calgarian Chris Turner:

http://thewalrus.ca/calgary-reconsidered/

[krynski]

Well, this certainly explains the increase in ticket prices. I like the saddledome, but the 3rd level seats are awful. just terrible. I suppose you get what you pay for though.

[J epworth]

Some nice ones:

Barclay's Centre in Brooklyn. I love the shape, but not too sure what to think about the wood strips yet.

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/2012/09/2Barclays/BarclaysCenter1_SS.jpg


I love the Barclay's centre design, and I'm a big fan of the wood strips. Wood strips on the rafters inside would undoubtedly look great as well, a la how they did it at WinSport and the awesome wooden rafters of Valliant arena in Davos, but it would more than likely not work for concert configurations and such, so as much as I love the wooden rafters, that's a pipe dream for me.

[Rifleman]

Dunno if this had been posted yet as I've only read up to page 4 of this thread, but it looks like there are already plans to redevelop the West Village area, and an arena isn't in the plans.

http://www.realestateforums.com/calgaryref/docs/2010/b4_matthias_tita.pdf

[CaptainSunshin3]

I love the Barclay's centre design, and I'm a big fan of the wood strips. Wood strips on the rafters inside would undoubtedly look great as well, a la how they did it at WinSport and the awesome wooden rafters of Valliant arena in Davos, but it would more than likely not work for concert configurations and such, so as much as I love the wooden rafters, that's a pipe dream for me.

They're actually not wood strips at Barclays. It's a metal of some sort. The arena is amazing, though Just very well put designed.

Was there for the NYE Jay-Z Concert

[FakenHaken]

I love the Barclay's centre design, and I'm a big fan of the wood strips. Wood strips on the rafters inside would undoubtedly look great as well, a la how they did it at WinSport and the awesome wooden rafters of Valliant arena in Davos, but it would more than likely not work for concert configurations and such, so as much as I love the wooden rafters, that's a pipe dream for me.

My apologies and it has been stated it's a type of metal but that looks like an upside down wicker basket?

[JazzyFlame]

This will be a multiplex right? Home of the Flames, Stampeders, future FC team etc???

[You Need a Thneed]

Dunno if this had been posted yet as I've only read up to page 4 of this thread, but it looks like there are already plans to redevelop the West Village area, and an arena isn't in the plans.

http://www.realestateforums.com/calgaryref/docs/2010/b4_matthias_tita.pdf

Actual plans to do serious work in the West Village area are 5-10 years away, and there is nothing really that would prevent an arena from being built there if the Flames wanted to.

[valo403]

Some nice ones:

Barclay's Centre in Brooklyn. I love the shape, but not too sure what to think about the wood strips yet.

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/2012/09/2Barclays/BarclaysCenter1_SS.jpg



That's actually not wood, it's iron (or some sort of metal) that will naturally oxidize to that color. The last time I was there it still looked fairly metallic, but that was in the fall.

Edit: In case anyone missed it the 4 previous times. That's not wood. It's metal.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Some have mentioned the article about the history of Calgary and the "myth" of the Stampede heritage, here is the article in question by Calgarian Chris Turner:

http://thewalrus.ca/calgary-reconsidered/
That was a lengthy painful read tbh. But not that much of what the author said would be strewed as incorrect, but he clearly has an agenda in mind. One, he ignores that the culture of the area where Calgary was established revolved around ranching and farming. As Fotze points out, likely the case for a lot of areas, located in the middle of this country for sure, but doesn't make it any less true. But of course the "city" of Calgary wasn't created to for Ranching and Farming, you don't create a city for that reason.

The author is also clearly concerned that the "cowtown" stigman somehow leads to people believing this isn't a progressive city. Could be some truth to that, but it's what happens with every sterotype. We all believe that everyone in Vancouver is a dirty pot smoking hippy, but if you've been to that city, you know that the antithisis of this is in full force around Robson and Grandville streets for example.

San Antonio Texas for example likely creates images in your head, but anyone who's been there knows it's a not just what you'd think. Nashville is a lot more than just country music. Calgary, is not just a rodeo/ cowtown anymore (even if it apparently never was ;)) but there is no harm in embracing an identifyer, doesn't mean that's all that you have to be about, and for sure the author is correct, there is so much more to this city. But folks who get really worried about the "western" tag line this city gets are simply being insecure, worried that folks in Toronto or Vancouver use it to make fun and call us small town, but it's not the case, and that tag line does so much more good for the city economically than it does harm.

[valo403]

That was a lengthy painful read tbh. But not that much of what the author said would be strewed as incorrect, but he clearly has an agenda in mind. One, he ignores that the culture of the area where Calgary was established revolved around ranching and farming. As Fotze points out, likely the case for a lot of areas, located in the middle of this country for sure, but doesn't make it any less true. But of course the "city" of Calgary wasn't created to for Ranching and Farming, you don't create a city for that reason.

The author is also clearly concerned that the "cowtown" stigman somehow leads to people believing this isn't a progressive city. Could be some truth to that, but it's what happens with every sterotype. We all believe that everyone in Vancouver is a dirty pot smoking hippy, but if you've been to that city, you know that the antithisis of this is in full force around Robson and Grandville streets for example.

San Antonio Texas for example likely creates images in your head, but anyone who's been there knows it's a not just what you'd think. Nashville is a lot more than just country music. Calgary, is not just a rodeo/ cowtown anymore (even if it apparently never was ;)) but there is no harm in embracing an identifyer, doesn't mean that's all that you have to be about, and for sure the author is correct, there is so much more to this city. But folks who get really worried about the "western" tag line this city gets are simply being insecure, worried that folks in Toronto or Vancouver use it to make fun and call us small town, but it's not the case, and that tag line does so much more good for the city economically than it does harm.

Does it? Outside of the Stampede the whole western thing doesn't really do much for Calgary at all as far as I can tell. IMO pushing that angle too much puts Calgary in a very niche market type position, 'come for your cowboy and wild west experience', when there is more to offer that isn't put forward. It's not about being insecure, it's about being fed up with an inaccurate image being put forth, not by people from Vancouver or Toronto, but from the city itself.

Actually, Nashville is a great example. I had no idea what Nashville had to offer until I met a lovely young lady from Nashville (okay, I knew they had those to offer) and went down to visit. I was expecting honky tonks and country music, and while they have that I discovered they also have some of the best restaurants in the country, bars that are doing all sorts of cool things with cocktails, stuff I'd never heard of even in the hippest parts of hipster Brooklyn and the music scene is insanely diverse. It took going there to find out about any of that, which is the issue. Calgary has a lot of things to offer that people have no idea about because the western image is too strong.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Does it? Outside of the Stampede the whole western thing doesn't really do much for Calgary at all as far as I can tell. IMO pushing that angle too much puts Calgary in a very niche market type position, 'come for your cowboy and wild west experience', when there is more to offer that isn't put forward. It's not about being insecure, it's about being fed up with an inaccurate image being put forth, not by people from Vancouver or Toronto, but from the city itself.

It doesn't need to outside of the Stampede. You can't simply say "outside of the Stampede" when refering to this city. Sorry, people who say that don't understand the value of that 2 week period, it's honestly what puts this city on the map, and drives the majority of Calgary's direct tourism. That would be like saying, "outside of Mardi Gras" when talking about New Orleans. I'm not saying Stampede is as big as Mardi Gras, but don't underestimate the Stampede's drawing power to this city, it's mainly the only thing most people in Europe and the States know about this place, and it's regarded as a must see event for many people around the world and is touted as one of the worlds best parties and events by the likes of Rolling Stones magazines ect....

I agree, the western image key importance is the 2 week festival know as the Stampede, but it's economic importance to this city cannot be overstated.

[CaptainCrunch]

I still want a rocket launcher on the roof so that every time the Flames score it launches a strike against Vancouver.

[valo403]

It doesn't need to outside of the Stampede. You can't simply say "outside of the Stampede" when refering to this city. Sorry, people who say that don't understand the value of that 2 week period, it's honestly what puts this city on the map, and drives the majority of Calgary's direct tourism. That would be like saying, "outside of Mardi Gras" when talking about New Orleans. I'm not saying Stampede is as big as Mardi Gras, but don't underestimate the Stampede's drawing power to this city, it's mainly the only thing most people in Europe and the States know about this place, and it's regarded as a must see event for many people around the world and is touted as one of the worlds best parties and events by the likes of Rolling Stones magazines ect....

I agree, the western image key importance is the 2 week festival know as the Stampede, but it's economic importance to this city cannot be overstated.

Why is it an either/or situation? Like I said about Nashville (sorry, added that after) marketing a city as western (or whatever aspect) when there's so much more to offer does a disservice to the variety of options available. You don't have to stop marketing the Stampede because you market the fact that Calgary is more than just the Stampede.

I get the sense the city is shifting in that direction lately in terms of how it sells itself, which is why I'd hate to see a big showpiece building go the route of cowboy culture.

[Bunk]

I think it's important to de-couple the city's day-to-day decisions around architecture, planning, cultural activity from Stampede. Stampede is a festival - one that's themed Western. But that has very little to do with the day-to-day reality of Calgary as a modern city. Sure, we should western the hell out of ourselves during those two weeks, promote people to come to the city to experience that unique vibe - during stampede. But we shouldn't pretend that's what we are the rest of the year. If people are coming in May to Calgary to experience cowboy culture, they're going to be pretty disappointed - unless you can somehow make Stampede Park a true year round tourist attraction. You don't see Quebec City building their city as if Bonhomme was of cultural relevance year round.

Otherwise our architecture is going to all start looking like this:

Barnes' version of the St. Patick's Island Bridge:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5013/barnesbridgepropsal5.png
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?p=3408708

[Cowboy89]

Some have mentioned the article about the history of Calgary and the "myth" of the Stampede heritage, here is the article in question by Calgarian Chris Turner:

http://thewalrus.ca/calgary-reconsidered/

Yes I get it, the whole 'Cowboys and Indians' 1950s style old western movie template thing wasn't really Calgary to a T back in the late 1800s (even though the area was still a center for agriculture and in the middle of ranching country). Fair enough, point noted and maybe the some elements of the authenticity of this myth being embellished actually mattered when the festival was fledgling back a hundred years ago.
Now in 2013 the Stampede has been going on for so long that it's size and longevity in itself makes the festival motif a prominent and important part of the city's heritage. Bottomline, it put Calgary on the map when Calgary might not have enough other reasons to be there. Just because Calgary's evolved a more eccletic cultural scene after growing past a million people shouldn't relegate the Stampede and its influences to the trash heap of history.

If the new arena is sandstone and brick, and similar to American Airlines Center or Nationwide, as a Flames STH I will be very pleased and won't shed a tear for the 'avant-garde' design crowd. If we end up getting a cutting edge design that has ample concourse space, ample washrooms, great sightlines and top notch amenities then that would also be great too. My only concern with an 'innovative' design is that it may run the risk of being something that for functionality purposes might be viewed in the future as being a mistake. One only has to look to Montreal's Olympic Stadium and the Autostade to be reminded of designs that were more favorable to those photograhing them than those who actually use the facilities.

[Bunk]

Actual plans to do serious work in the West Village area are 5-10 years away, and there is nothing really that would prevent an arena from being built there if the Flames wanted to.

And again, the biggest issue with West Village is that it requires so much other infrastructure to become developable. For instance, from that plan you can see the realignment of Bow Trail. You also have about $100 million in environmental remediation from creosote.

If you did a CRL that included an arena, that would take up a pretty good chunk of the land, which leaves less land for other redevelopment necessary to pay back the $300-$400 million loan taken to pay for the infratructure upgrades ($400-$500 million assuming $100 million City money for the arena).

There's also the issue of opening up new land for redevelopment now, when the City is still in the early stages of redeveloping East Village and where communities like Beltline have dozens and dozens of underdeveloped high density sites.

[nik-]

Not one single person is suggesting they prefer form over function. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[FanIn80]

Now in 2013 the Stampede has been going on for so long that it's size and longevity in itself makes the festival motif a prominent and important part of the city's heritage. Bottomline, it put Calgary on the map...

Interesting. I would argue that it was the Canadian Pacific Railway that put Calgary on the map.

[Azure]

Haven't they? Been to a game lately? There are a lot of empty seats. That's the precursor to the "sellout" streak ending. Unless they just keep giving the tickets away or buying the remainder like they likely have been.

They don't want a 21000 seat arena with 16000 people in it if this dip continues.

Are the empty seats actual single game tickets not being bought, or season ticket holders not showing up?

[Azure]

Wasn't farming and ranching a major part of every place that wasn't a booming metropolis at the time?


Well, if you compare it to other provinces like Manitoba or Ontario, farming/ranching is a much bigger 'player' in Alberta than it is there.

I'm not saying that it is reason enough to keep the existing 'look.' But I do think that it has influence. Once you live somewhere else you see it much more when you come back.

[Bunk]

The thing that a lot of people don't realize with the saddledome is that it was not designed in any way with a Western theme in mind. The architect has stated that the reverse hyperbolic paraboloid was for the purpose of having expansive, column free roof which allows unobstructed views from all seats while minimizing the building's volume. It was only after that it occurred to people that it resembled the shape of a saddle - so when the naming discussion came up it was dubbed the "saddledome".

For the early 80s it in fact was 'avant garde'

[RM14]

Interesting. I would argue that it was the Canadian Pacific Railway that put Calgary on the map.

Fort Calgary put our city on the map, lets make it out of spiked logs! Really though, Additional concourses and stellar sightlines are all I care about.

[Enoch Root]

I will settle for non-######ed concession workers.

Seems when I talk about Calgary to foreigners, none have heard of the Stampede. The olympics yes, mountains, skiing. When I mention the stampede, they get a glazed look over their face.

Curious what percentage the Stampede is attributed to our tourism? I would bet the mountains attract more visitors.
I have always found this too. Banff and the Rockies are what most foreigners seem to recognize, I have found.

IMO, tieing the architectural theme to the Stampede is one-dimensional and small-time.

Please, give me a progressive state-of-the-art type structure every time.

[Red John]

Wonder what Max Foran would say about all this. Took one of his classes in university...the man really has his finger on the pulse of the city and its culture.

[Barnes]

I think it's important to de-couple the city's day-to-day decisions around architecture, planning, cultural activity from Stampede. Stampede is a festival - one that's themed Western. But that has very little to do with the day-to-day reality of Calgary as a modern city. Sure, we should western the hell out of ourselves during those two weeks, promote people to come to the city to experience that unique vibe - during stampede. But we shouldn't pretend that's what we are the rest of the year. If people are coming in May to Calgary to experience cowboy culture, they're going to be pretty disappointed - unless you can somehow make Stampede Park a true year round tourist attraction. You don't see Quebec City building their city as if Bonhomme was of cultural relevance year round.

Otherwise our architecture is going to all start looking like this:

Barnes' version of the St. Patick's Island Bridge:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5013/barnesbridgepropsal5.png
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?p=3408708

I forgot about this. Did I win the design competition?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

For example, can you tell me what St. Louis' unique feature is? Phoenix? Minneapolis? Again, I just want to see Calgary keep it's heritage and all I see is Calgarians getting sick of the 'cowtown' stigma.

1. STL - Arch
2. PHO - Desert
3. Minneapolis - Twin Cities

Did I ace the quiz?

[GreenLantern2814]

How about we build a giant mountain shaped structure with a working chairlift that you can actually ski down? Now that would be unique.

[longsuffering]

I am far more concerned about the inside of the building that the outside.

As a taxpayer, assuming taxpayer funding is part of the project, I have no interest in paying for an architectural marvel. If I'm bucking up for the building, I'm happy with a plain exterior, with the majority of the money spent on the 'experience' inside the building.

If the Flames are footing the bill, then by all means, let's build the most technologically advanced, avant-garde design a world famous architect can dream up.