Jay Bouwmeester Appreciation Thread

[StrykerSteve]

Hopefully we can keep this thread free of the negativity that spews fort in seemingly every thread on CP these days, I figured it was high time we time we celebrate that we have a guy like JBo on this team. There's a dozen threads where you can voice your dislike of him, please let this one be for the folks who can appreciate what he brings to the table.

hHvEF4XJ90Y

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Watching past highlights, it's pretty clear where his bread and butter is, sneaking in off the point and scoring on those backdoor wristshots. The guy can flat out skate with the best of them, and he's got a nice outlet pass, when he chooses to use it.

Let's hope Hartley emphasizes these attributes under his new offense-oriented system, combined with the addition of some nice talent, perhaps we see a return to all-star form for JBo in 2012/2013! :ph34r:

The last vid is obviously in good fun, JBo just loves to hit Kipper, it's his thing. That vid cracks me up whenever I see it, had to include it. :D

[Jbo]

This will not end well...

[dissentowner]

This thread sponsored by the Canadian Society for the Blind.

[ClubFlames]

This will not end well...

Jbo himself doesn't approve this message.

[Dion]

http://i.imgur.com/nkFh5.png

[TorqueDog]

I just wish we'd get more of that 'classic Bouwmeester' now that he plays for us. That's what I thought we'd get when he first signed.

[StrykerSteve]

He was drafted 3rd overall, is a 2-time NHL All-Star, was a member of the NHL All-Rookie team, won the award for Top Defenceman in the World Hockey Championships, was a member of the WHC All-Star team, won two Gold medals at the World Hockey Championships, a gold medal in the Canada Cup and had consecutive seasons of 12, 15 and 15 goals respectively, before coming to the Flames.

The guy can obviously play, he was simply horribly misused by Brent Sutter. You gotta believe! :)

[MrMastodonFarm]

This will not end well...

You will not enjoy this..
-300

[Northendzone]

Given his abilit to skate, and log a lot of minutes, and make a decent first pass out of the zone, I sometime wonder where we would be without him.

If only he was making about $4.0 mill per..........

Hopefully he is revitalized by the changes to the team and coaching staff.

[StrykerSteve]

He also hasn't missed a game in this league since 2003, and played the third-highest minutes in the entire league last season. He may lack a physical presence, but that isn't the game he plays, we've got other guys to fill that role. I think if Hartley utilizes his skillset properly, he's going to have a heck of a rebound year and surprise a lot of people.

[FanIn80]

Wtf. I saw this thread on the main page, and thought he'd been traded.

#iamdissapoint

[MrMastodonFarm]

He also hasn't missed a game in this league since 2003, and played the third-highest minutes in the entire league last season. He may lack a physical presence, but that isn't the game he plays, we've got other guys to fill that role. I think if Hartley utilizes his skillset properly, he's going to have a heck of a rebound year and surprise a lot of people.

Sure, sounds great. Still doesn't mean this needed another thread.

[Jake]

I'd appreciate him a lot more if he made ~3 million less per year.

[StrykerSteve]

Sure, sounds great. Still doesn't mean this needed another thread.

C'mon man, loosen up a little. We've got Jay Bouwmeester on our team, and all we ever do is bash on him. I remember the day he was signed here, it was like we had won the lottery.

Now all we do is argue about how many hockey pucks he should be traded away for.

I just want a little piece of that original feeling back again. He's still the same player, no injuries, no mental breakdowns, he's still the same all-star defenceman, and now he's in his prime... he just needs a coach that can remind him of that.

I'm hoping Hartley can pull it off. No malice intended with this thread, I just figured there are others out there that agree with me, might want a safe place to let people know it without facing the JBo hit squad.

[Stay Golden]

I would appreciate Bouwmeester to go play along side that
other star Ian White.

[FlyingDonutz]

Sure, sounds great. Still doesn't mean this needed another thread.

Maybe we're just trying to show a bit of appreciation for the good things he does?

If he was signed to a 3 million contract we wouldn't be bitching about him on a daily basis.

He's a good defenseman. If we find a use for him on the blue line that hasn't got to do with physicality, He'll be fine.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I'd appreciate him a lot more if he made ~3 million less per year.

You are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor.

[Frank MetaMusil]

I always wonder if Bouwmeester's ironman streak causes him to play more cautiously.

Hartley should healthy scratch him for a game and reset it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Maybe we're just trying to show a bit of appreciation for the good things he does?

If he was signed to a 3 million contract we wouldn't be bitching about him on a daily basis.

He's a good defenseman. If we find a use for him on the blue line that hasn't got to do with physicality, He'll be fine.

Jay bouwmeester is the R5-D4 of the Flames. I suppose he is useful but he'll never be a star or a stand out of any kind.

We're doomed.

[puckluck2]

I always wonder if Bouwmeester's ironman streak causes him to play more cautiously.

Hartley should healthy scratch him for a game and reset it.

I think Bouwmeester worries more about breaking a nail than playing more physical.

It's just who he is as a player and I don't think that will ever change. No team will ever be successful with him logging the most minutes. If he's a Flame next season I'd love to see what he can do playing 18-20 minutes a game getting no PK time at all.

[StrykerSteve]

http://video.flames.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlp=8470151&lang=en

[puckluck2]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

[StrykerSteve]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

With all due respect, you're f'ing insane.

[FlyingDonutz]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

Regehr is honestly just... phart. Look at him now? He's doing worse than Bo, IMO.

[kyuss275]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

No, we were lucky enough to get rid of Reggie when we did. If you thought the return was bad for Reggie last year just imagine what he would have brought back this summer.

[Reanimate]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

haha, wow.

[Hockey_Ninja]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.
No. We'd be even worst last season if that happened.

[Alberta_Beef]

I think one thing that is constantly ignored is his awareness on the ice. I don't know how many times last season (it was alot) I saw him making a beeline for the bench because he noticed a bad change and saved us a too many men penalty. He seemed to be the only player that either saw it, or cared to try and fix it.

I also think his awareness might cause some of his problems. I think he sees the mistakes his partners make or are about to make and will try and do too much to cover up the mistakes and force himself out of position.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

*Hey look, a Jay Bouwmeester appreciation thread... Think I'll wander on in and s**t all over him.*



Edited for clarity.

[FAN]

Bouwmeester's ironman/consecutive games streak is now top 10 in NHL history. There, I said something nice about him.

[FlyingDonutz]

If you can rewind to the day Regehr was traded and instead include Bouwmeester would you do it?

I would in a heart beat.

How the hell do you post 300 times in a month?

Especially because of the quality of your posts. Honestly, I've been here 6 months with 500 posts.

But from what other people say about you, I assume you've been around a lot longer than that?

[debil]

He'll never win anything. As a role player for 4 mil or less maybe one day with some very good team with true #1 dman. As 7mil franchise dman and icetime leader he's never gonna carry your team anywhere.

[Hockey_Ninja]

How the hell do you post 300 times in a month?

Especially because of the quality of your posts. Honestly, I've been here 6 months with 500 posts.

But from what other people say about you, I assume you've been around a lot longer than that?
His old account had a 18-20 post per day count.

[FlyingDonutz]

His old account had a 18-20 post per day count.

Ah. Wow! that's a lot of posts lol.

[OutOfTheCube]

Maybe you should start a 'Matt Stajan Appreciation' thread too.

[vilzeh]

If he had a 3m cap, if and if..

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[vilzeh]

His old account had a 18-20 post per day count.

and you have around 10. :P

[Karl]

Maybe you should start a 'Matt Stajan Appreciation' thread too.

I know you're being sarcastic but there probably is one somewhere around here a bunch of pages down in the FOI section.

I might be inclined to start another one (when or if the time's right, that is) but I already started a thread that's kinda close-ish to that.

Perhaps StrykerSteve should start one, or maybe you should start one yourself!

[Red Slinger]

Bouwmeester has always kind of been a Lidstrom-lite in my mind. He's a very good skater, good awareness, good pass, good positioning, not physical, durable. All very Lidstrom-esque. However, Lidstrom had a much better shot, a legendary stick check and made everyone on the ice with him better.

I'm not suggesting that Bouwmeester is going to morph into Lidstrom. I think with the proper coaching and players around him he could be more effective than he's been with the Flames. I sure hope so anyways.

[Alberta_Beef]

How the hell do you post 300 times in a month?

Especially because of the quality of your posts. Honestly, I've been here 6 months with 500 posts.

But from what other people say about you, I assume you've been around a lot longer than that?It's not difficult. Post from work and get involved in debates and discussions, easy to see your post count get inflated from just 1 topic where you go back and forth with someone.

[Miniac]

Wtf. I saw this thread on the main page, and thought he'd been traded.

#iamdissapoint

I did as well.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Hopefully we can keep this thread free of the negativity that spews fort in seemingly every thread on CP these days, I figured it was high time we time we celebrate that we have a guy like JBo on this team. There's a dozen threads where you can voice your dislike of him, please let this one be for the folks who can appreciate what he brings to the table.


Watching past highlights, it's pretty clear where his bread and butter is, sneaking in off the point and scoring on those backdoor wristshots. The guy can flat out skate with the best of them, and he's got a nice outlet pass, when he chooses to use it.

Let's hope Hartley emphasizes these attributes under his new offense-oriented system, combined with the addition of some nice talent, perhaps we see a return to all-star form for JBo in 2012/2013! :ph34r:

The last vid is obviously in good fun, JBo just loves to hit Kipper, it's his thing. That vid cracks me up whenever I see it, had to include it. :D

Who are you Bingo's youngest boy? Listen to Bingo Jr. before posting!

[WessThompson]

I would appreciate jaybo on another team

[FlyingDonutz]

http://alwayshistora.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/internet-memes-pessimists-blood-type-always-b-negative1.jpg

[Cole436]

I'm excited to see what he can bring under Hartley. Sutter's system definitely was not offence friendly, and it looked like the weight of the world was on his shoulders.
Him and Wideman could be a great combination.
I'm willing to give him a final chance.

[Mass_nerder]

Although he has yet to bring what I was expecting, to the flames, I still like him.
Like many have said, his larger cap hit cause people to focus on any and all mistakes...I'm sure if you did the same with a lot of the league's best defenders, you would be surprised by more than a few.
I don't think he's fully lived up to his contract, but he has played well for us. It's completely ridiculous that I see some people blame bouwmeester for us not making the playoffs.

To those who want him gone for pucks, just wait until we no longer have someone who can steadily play 25+ minutes a night. I like the addition of wideman, but he's not picking up any slack.

[handgroen]

where's ricardo?

[ricardodw]

Bouwmeester looked to be a bit better than Butler most of last year.

Bouwmeester has the potential to be as good as Smith was when Smith was playing well.

[dissentowner]

Bouwmeester has always kind of been a Lidstrom-lite in my mind. He's a very good skater, good awareness, good pass, good positioning, not physical, durable. All very Lidstrom-esque. However, Lidstrom had a much better shot, a legendary stick check and made everyone on the ice with him better.

I'm not suggesting that Bouwmeester is going to morph into Lidstrom. I think with the proper coaching and players around him he could be more effective than he's been with the Flames. I sure hope so anyways.
Lol, comparing Bouwmeester to Lidstrom is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Rolls Royce.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Ghana. Really admirable.

[StrykerSteve]

Ghana. Really admirable.

Indeed. http://instagram.com/p/N8-ZYiM8GF/ :beer:

[jlh2640]

I like Jay Bo

[Reanimate]

Bouwmeester looked to be a bit better than Butler most of last year.

Bouwmeester has the potential to be as good as Smith was when Smith was playing well.

Yeah, there isn't two statements that could be more wrong in a thread full of them.

[kirant]

Yeah, there isn't two statements that could be more wrong in a thread full of them.

This below statement is true
The above statement is false.

[bubbsy]

Who is going to make the Stajan appreciation thread?

[Rerun]

I see this thread dieing a quick and relatively quiet death. Too many bitter Flames fans on here that are sorely dissapointed that Bouw did not live up to his pre-Flames signing hype and the contract that he negotiated for himself. They feel they got sold a pig in a poke, as the saying goes.

[neo45]

Beautiful skater, good hockey player, great guy.


Just not what the team needs.

[Vinny01]

Bouwmeester looked to be a bit better than Butler most of last year.

Bouwmeester has the potential to be as good as Smith was when Smith was playing well.

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you post something like that?

[AR_Six]

Bouwmeester has always kind of been a Lidstrom-lite in my mind. He's a very good skater, good awareness, good pass, good positioning, not physical, durable. All very Lidstrom-esque. However, Lidstrom had a much better shot, a legendary stick check and made everyone on the ice with him better.
Oh my God. This comparison did not just happen. There's no way.

[Reanimate]

I find it hilarious when people lose their collective #### when a comparable between Bouwmeester and Lidstrom is made. They do play the game the same way, Lidstrom is just 10x better at everything than Bouwmeester is, and 20x better than the next comparable. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THEY ARE EQUALS.

[StrykerSteve]

Oh my God. This comparison did not just happen. There's no way.

I think you're focusing too much on the Lidstrom name drop. The actual qualities highlighted were pretty accurate.

[robmneilson]

He's been such a huge disappointment since coming here (like most players that excelled in a cream puff division for so many years). But I'd love for him to boost his value a bit by playing well under Hartley since I doubt Detroit or Philly is going to offer anything amazing for him at this point.

[DeluxeMoustache]

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you post something like that?

It's not the appropriate thread to sell Butler short.

[dissentowner]

I find it hilarious when people lose their collective #### when a comparable between Bouwmeester and Lidstrom is made. They do play the game the same way, Lidstrom is just 10x better at everything than Bouwmeester is, and 20x better than the next comparable. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THEY ARE EQUALS.
Then why even compare them? Marc savard played the game the same as Wayne Gretzky but I certainly would not compare them either.

[Reanimate]

Then why even compare them? Marc savard played the game the same as Wayne Gretzky but I certainly would not compare them either.

I think you are missing the point.

[dissentowner]

I think you are missing the point.
What point?

[neo45]

Bouwmeester isn't as good as Lidstrom


But he is the most accurate comparison to Lidstrom (Lidstrom-lite as the poster put it). Out of all the D-men in the NHL his style is the most like Lidstrom

[Reanimate]

What point?

You are basically saying no one should ever be compared to anyone ever, if we used your reasoning.

[Jason14h]

I have appreciated not having to watch Jay Bouw all summer

[dissentowner]

You are basically saying no one should ever be compared to anyone ever, if we used your reasoning.
Not really. I am saying a guy who has never played in the playoffs, never played to expectations, does not put up many points, and who's game goes down the toilet when the heat is on has no business being compared with a multiple SC winner, multiple Norris trophy winner, high scoring defenceman who can be in the debates of who is the greatest defenceman to ever play the game. It is a ridiculous comparison.

[Stay Golden]

Bouwmeester is a beast, plays fierce in front of net. There isn't a single forward in the league that doesn't shiver knowing that JBo is going to nail them through the glass.
Forget about standing in front of Kipper, JBo will chop them down.
His slap shot is right up there with Al MacInnis, and if he gets a chance to pinch farside in the offensive zone its just another easy goal for him to pot.
Now Holland will you please quit stalling and make this trade.

[Reanimate]

Not really. I am saying a guy who has never played in the playoffs, never played to expectations, does not put up many points, and who's game goes down the toilet when the heat is on has no business being compared with a multiple SC winner, multiple Norris trophy winner, high scoring defenceman who can be in the debates of who is the greatest defenceman to ever play the game. It is a ridiculous comparison.

We aren't talking accomplishments, or teams they have played on, we are talking playing style. I have already said that Lidstrom plays the same way, just 10x (or so) better at it.

[dissentowner]

We aren't talking accomplishments, or teams they have played on, we are talking playing style. I have already said that Lidstrom plays the same way, just 10x (or so) better at it.
Except they don't. Both use their stick to defend instead of the body. That is where it ends. Lidstrom has a great accurate shot which he can also use to play a slap pass to a teammate or off the back boards right in front of the net. His hockey IQ is off the charts and he thrives under pressure. If a guy is standing in front of the net Lidstrom will get physical enough to clear him out. Besides the big hit Lidstrom was the absolute master of everything else at his position.

[AR_Six]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm exactly like Nick Lidstrom. Me and him think the game the same way. Except he's, you know, a thousand times better than me. Still, appropriate comparable. I'm Lidstrom-Lite-Lite.

[Psytic]

Like I said before I will appreciate him when his salary is bumped down to around 4.75 to 5 mill and he is no longer "The Guy" on defence. He isn't bad once we accept him for being an average first liner. He just can't be the best player on D for the Flames if they hope to contend.

[AR_Six]

Like I said before I will appreciate him when his salary is bumped down to around 4.75 to 5 mill and he is no longer "The Guy" on defence. He isn't bad once we accept him for being an average first liner. He just can't be the best player on D for the Flames if they hope to contend.
This is exactly how I feel. I have this strong hunch that in 20-22 minutes a night playing 2nd pairing, he loses the shackles, plays much more creatively and becomes a much more effective player. I seriously think the Flames would get more out of him in 20 minutes in a role like that than they currently are in 26+. He's spent the last 3 years trying to be a player he simply isn't. Some guys can change their game, he clearly can't, and it's long past time to drop the experiment.

[Jason14h]

He isn't bad once we accept him for being an average first liner. He just can't be the best player on D for the Flames if they hope to contend.

I don't think he is good enough to be a first liner. He is a 3/4 on a good team IMO

[Reanimate]

Except they don't. Both use their stick to defend instead of the body. That is where it ends. Lidstrom has a great accurate shot which he can also use to play a slap pass to a teammate or off the back boards right in front of the net. His hockey IQ is off the charts and he thrives under pressure. If a guy is standing in front of the net Lidstrom will get physical enough to clear him out. Besides the big hit Lidstrom was the absolute master of everything else at his position.

Lidstrom is about as physical in front of the net as Bouwmeester. He uses his positioning and tying up the forward/stick check more than anything. But whatever, we aren't going to change each others minds, so to each there own.

[BigFlameDog]

Bouwmeester looked to be a bit better than Butler most of last year.

Bouwmeester has the potential to be as good as Smith was when Smith was playing well.

You're honestly ridiculous.

[ricardodw]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.

[Reanimate]

Haha. Wow. Just.... Wow!

[BACKCHECK!!!]

This thread is the straw that broke the camel's back.

CP has gone full ######.

I'll see you guys when the lockout is over.

[Enoch Root]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.
I am not sure which is more amazing:

That you think that's a valid and useful argument, or that you bothered to take the requisite time to do the research on it.

[StrykerSteve]

Who else believes JBo scores at least 10 goals this season?

I don't know why I am defending this guy, I hated watching him play the past few years, lol.

[BigFlameDog]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.

Honestly, why don't you give it a rest....you're reaching so far to find crap to b*&^h about now that it is hurting MY shoulder.

If you want to make the comparison...it is between defencemen period, leave forwards and goaltenders out of it.

...or just stop altogether.

[Karl]

Who is going to make the Stajan appreciation thread?

Here: http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=115185&highlight=Matt+Stajan

[403ep3]

WTF, I saw the thread on latest posts and thought he was traded..

THANKS A LOT OP!

[Hockey_Ninja]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.
http://pull.imgfave.netdna-cdn.com/image_cache/1309458918150431.gif

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I see we've moved on from the decisive +/- stat to the really telling star selection stats. Thank god for stats! Otherwise how would we know who is any good?

[Poe969]

Too bad there isn't a stat to show JayBow's "tenacity and truculance" because I'm sure he'd be among the league leaders in that one.

All kidding aside, I really like JayBow and always have but I just don't like him as a Flame. He just doesn't fit with the Flames. I really do see him being an allstar on the right team

[mikeecho]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.
Gagner was the first, second and third star in an Oilers game. I presume he's the greatest player ever? Since when does 3 star stats count for anything other than a nice little cheque each month to a charity. Guys who write for news papers and have their own agendas pick those things. They mean nothing, except to raise some sponsorship money and spread people out so they don't all bombard the exits at the same time.

[Coach]

Too bad there isn't a stat to show JayBow's "tenacity and truculance" because I'm sure he'd be among the league leaders in that one.

All kidding aside, I really like JayBow and always have but I just don't like him as a Flame. He just doesn't fit with the Flames. I really do see him being an allstar on the right team


I would prefer a stat using the wideness of his eyes. The more his eyes are wide, the more he is into the game. When his eyes are not wide he is obviously not engaged and therefore is useless.

ricardo, what is Bouwmeesters average eye width? And how often is he above/below this width?

[Lobotroth]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.

Seems like you place a lot of value in what Charlie Simmer has to say about the team.

[Reanimate]

It is become apparent. Jay Bouwmeester has the ability to literally destroy minds. Poor Ricardo.

[Poe969]

Maybe Ricardo is JayBow

[Reanimate]

Maybe Ricardo is JayBow

And he is incepting us?

[puckluck2]

I can now see why so many people hate returning users.

[Alberta_Beef]

All kidding aside, I really like JayBow and always have but I just don't like him as a Flame. He just doesn't fit with the Flames. I really do see him being an allstar on the right teamWith Hartley in for Brent and having all new coaches I would suggest it is a new team. On the surface Hartley's past system's appear as if they would fit Bouwmeester's style of play better.

I would also suggest that Hartley has also expressed an interest in getting to know the players on a personal level which might could give him insight into Bouwmeester's mind if indeed he has lost his confidence offensively.

[jayswin]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.

My god, you literally broke my computer. My computer was fine for the last year, then I read this post, and it won't shut down properly. I'm serious, it was honestly because of this post.

[StrykerSteve]

I don't see the logic in not standing up and supporting the heck out of JBo, regardless of whether you like him or not. He either excels under Hartley and makes the Flames a better team because of it, or if your only desire is to see him shipped out of town, he excels and increases his trade value, again making the Flames better for it.

Either way is a win for this team, so everyone should be standing up and cheering the heck out of this guy.

[Rerun]

I don't see the logic in not standing up and supporting the heck out of JBo, regardless of whether you like him or not. He either excels under Hartley and makes the Flames a better team because of it, or if your only desire is to see him shipped out of town, he excels and increases his trade value, again making the Flames better for it.

Either way is a win for this team, so everyone should be standing up and cheering the heck out of this guy.

If most people had your sunny attitude the world would probably be a better place.... boring as hell.... but sunny! :D J/K

I see your logic but I doubt it will happen as too many people are feeling butt hurt over JBo.

[Reanimate]

One thing I want to know. How does anyone here have any clue what kind of system or game plan Bob Hartley uses?

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

One thing I want to know. How does anyone here have any clue what kind of system or game plan Bob Hartley uses?

I've been wondering the same thing.

When it was rumoured Hartley was the front runner, everyone on CP kept talking about how he plays q boring defensive game.

Then he gets hired and the press conference happens where he talks about playing an exciting brand of hockey and everyone assumes we've got ourselves a high offensive, no defense team who is going to leave Kipper out to dry.

Kind of odd how the consensus turns basically overnight.

[Reanimate]

I've been wondering the same thing.

When it was rumoured Hartley was the front runner, everyone on CP kept talking about how he plays q boring defensive game.

Then he gets hired and the press conference happens where he talks about playing an exciting brand of hockey and everyone assumes we've got ourselves a high offensive, no defense team who is going to leave Kipper out to dry.

Kind of odd how the consensus turns basically overnight.

Yeah, there seems to be some consensus on his coaching "style" if you will, when the guy hasn't coached in 5 years in the NHL. Brent Sutter sounded pretty certain of his system in his intro press conferences as well. We saw how fantastic that craptacular system was.

[Alberta_Beef]

I've been wondering the same thing.

When it was rumoured Hartley was the front runner, everyone on CP kept talking about how he plays q boring defensive game.

Then he gets hired and the press conference happens where he talks about playing an exciting brand of hockey and everyone assumes we've got ourselves a high offensive, no defense team who is going to leave Kipper out to dry.

Kind of odd how the consensus turns basically overnight.I think it's because people looked at his Atlanta days and not his Colorado days.

Hartley plays to the strengths of his clubs, and with ATL he was week up front, but here the strength is skilled wingers who can score possibly filling 4 lines.

[bubbsy]

It's funny, this thread seems like one of those medals/badges that are handed out in grade school for "Participation".

[Poe969]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/13/32a3834c-f24c-4786-9817-dd096e84e8c9.jpg

[Frank MetaMusil]

Hartley plays to the strengths of his clubs, and with ATL he was week up front, but here the strength is skilled wingers who can score possibly filling 4 lines.

This was a pretty decent group of forwards, imo. Mind you he only had Heatley up to 2003-2004.

-Kovalchuk
-Hossa
-Savard
-Heatley
-Kozlov

[Alberta_Beef]

This was a pretty decent group of forwards, imo. Mind you he only had Heatley up to 2003-2004.

-Kovalchuk
-Hossa
-Savard
-Heatley
-Kozlovyeah Heatley/Hossa never overlapped, he also lost Heatley for half a season or so after the car accident

I while I think Kozlov is a good player and Savard very good, I think in the case of both without a guy like Kovalshuk or Hossa they are much less effective as they aren't game changers.

[FAN]

I don't see the logic in not standing up and supporting the heck out of JBo
There's a difference between wanting a player to succeed and supporting the heck out of him. I want Bouwmeester to succeed because he's a Calgary Flame, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'll support a player who isn't doing everything in his power to help in hockey games for the Calgary Flames.


It's completely ridiculous that I see some people blame bouwmeester for us not making the playoffs.

I don't think it's ridiculous. The Flames were in a position to make the playoffs down the stretch and Bouwmeester did little to help the team make the playoffs. Bouwmeester is one of the highest paid players on the team, he's the #1 defenseman in both salary and minutes, and he folds down the stretch every year and constantly fails to raise his compete level when the games matter. The coach, as one of the team's leaders, was let go. One of the offensive leaders who failed to deliver down the stretch (even taking into account his injuries), Jokinen, was not re-signed. It's about making players accountable and as one of the leaders Bouwmeester has to take his share of the blame.

[Reanimate]

No. People blaming Bouwmeester solely, is ####ing ######ed. Period.

[Poe969]

You can't solely blame Bouwmeester for the Flames not doing well since he got here and you can't blame him for the Panthers not doing well when he was there either. You can however say that it just isn't working out with him on the team. He's making too much money because of the expectations put on him. He just isn't doing as well on the team as most thouoght/hoped. He isn't bad but he isn't good enough to make this team much better.

The team as a whole just isn't good enough, out 2 all-stars are getting older and just can't carry the team like they used to and thats this teams problem. We just don't have a real "star" on this team and most thought JayBow could be that guy. Keeping on the team isn't going to make us better then before but trading him won't make a huge difference either.

The teams lack of success can only be blamed on the team itself. No one is doing good enough on this team and thats why some fans (like me) want a re-build.

Bouwmeester is a good defensman playing on a below average team that doesn't fit his style of play. He has the tools but they aren't working on the team, its not his fault but changes need to be made if either him or the team want success.

[CsInMyBlood]

Bouwmeester was cheated out his only first star selection in the last game of the year by Aliu. Bouwmeester got second star in that game. He finished off the season strong!! If only all games were just for fun.

You would think that Bouwmeester as an an elite defenseman would have been a 1st star once in the 82 games he played!!! Not only do I undervalue him so do the analysts watching the games.


Butler was First star in 1 game as a was Gio, Comeau, Horak , Bourque and Irving.

Tanguay was able to dominate 3 games as was Jokinen. Glencross was only first star in 2 games but was in the 3 stars in 10 games.

Brendan freaking Morrison, playing on one leg and muscle memory was first star twice

Stempniak , who I apparently under value, was first star in 2 games.

Bouwmeester 0 for 82 in being the best player in a game.

Iginla was First star in 11 games .... Kipper 10. If they were good team-mates you would think they would give one selection to Bouwmeester.

Cammalleri only played 28 games for the Flames .... first star twice.

I see all the Bouwmeester fans pissing on Ricardodw for this post.

It is relevant. It shows that Bouwmeester in 82 games didn't garner one single night where he was the best player on the ice or a difference maker.

You can say it means nothing but it is rather telling no? A guy who has a huge contract, and plays almost half the game every night never got the first star selection even one time out of pity in 82 games? It's not like 10 year olds are picking these star selections, these are people who watch and dissect hockey on a daily basis for a living.

I wanted to stay out of this thread, because I understand it is supposed to be for people that love Jay Bouwmeester and I am not one of those folk, but to slag the crap out of him for his research because it isn't what J-Bosians want to hear makes me laugh.

Sorry for coming into your thread, carry on with the love for the mediocre.

[Reanimate]

I see all the Bouwmeester fans pissing on Ricardodw for this post.

It is relevant. It shows that Bouwmeester in 82 games didn't garner one single night where he was the best player on the ice or a difference maker.

You can say it means nothing but it is rather telling no? A guy who has a huge contract, and plays almost half the game every night never got the first star selection even one time out of pity in 82 games? It's not like 10 year olds are picking these star selections, these are people who watch and dissect hockey on a daily basis for a living.

I wanted to stay out of this thread, because I understand it is supposed to be for people that love Jay Bouwmeester and I am not one of those folk, but to slag the crap out of him for his research because it isn't what J-Bosians want to hear makes me laugh.

Sorry for coming into your thread, carry on with the love for the mediocre.

No, I am sorry, but arbitrarily selected molson 3 stars has to be the dumbest way to evaluate a players anything, ever.

[CsInMyBlood]

No, I am sorry, but arbitrarily selected molson 3 stars has to be the dumbest way to evaluate a players anything, ever.

Sure, but it still tells a bit of a story no?

Give me even one Bouwmeester stat that makes him look good then, honestly anything.

Ironman?

[Alberta_Beef]

Bouwmeester is a good defensman playing on a below average team that doesn't fit his style of play. He has the tools but they aren't working on the team, its not his fault but changes need to be made if either him or the team want success.I just want to address this, the style of play will be changing. And it should be a style that is more suitable for Bouwmeester. More importantly it should also be a style that is more suitable for Giordano, Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri and more suitable for newcomers Hudler and Wideman than the last few years.

On paper a team can be a poor team and do very well if the coaches know how to utilize their players. Look at the Blues, they were what worst in the league when Hitchcock took over? What about LA, Sutter turned them around. Or look at Phoenix and Nashville, Tippett & Trotz always get the most out of mediocre lineups.

And on paper our team isn't that bad, so if Hartley can get the players playing their games, we can be successful.

[Reanimate]

Sure, but it still tells a bit of a story no?

Give me even one Bouwmeester stat that makes him look good then, honestly anything.

Ironman?

Yep. His boxscores look terrible. But it isn't 1995 anymore. Time to look a little beyond that.

[kyuss275]

Sure, but it still tells a bit of a story no?

Give me even one Bouwmeester stat that makes him look good then, honestly anything.

Ironman?

I doubt it. To me the 3 best players down the stretch for Calgary last season were, Kipper,Gio and Sarich ( i dogged on him all season, but he showed up when it counted). How many stars did Gio and Sarich get? I do not recll many but i could be wrong.

[mikeecho]

I see all the Bouwmeester fans pissing on Ricardodw for this post.

It is relevant. It shows that Bouwmeester in 82 games didn't garner one single night where he was the best player on the ice or a difference maker.

You can say it means nothing but it is rather telling no? A guy who has a huge contract, and plays almost half the game every night never got the first star selection even one time out of pity in 82 games? It's not like 10 year olds are picking these star selections, these are people who watch and dissect hockey on a daily basis for a living.

I wanted to stay out of this thread, because I understand it is supposed to be for people that love Jay Bouwmeester and I am not one of those folk, but to slag the crap out of him for his research because it isn't what J-Bosians want to hear makes me laugh.

Sorry for coming into your thread, carry on with the love for the mediocre.
Is there a specific criteria or methodology used to pick the 3 stars? We all laugh at Simmers inane in game assessments (keep feet moving, blah blah) and yet we're supposed to put stock in his (and other media types) selection of 3 stars.

I can't even count how many games I've watched where the star selections have no real relevance to performance...
- it's his first game back from surgery and he was +1 and wasn't a noticeable liability so why not?
- so and so got an empty net goal to give him a 2 point night
- the road team out played the home team all game and yet the home team gets 2 stars because the local beat writer is a homer?

I'm completely indifferent to Bouwmeester, yet using 3 star selections to determine anything other than a popularity contest is laughable.

[CsInMyBlood]

Yep. His boxscores look terrible. But it isn't 1995 anymore. Time to look a little beyond that.

Yeah, there are a lot more advanced stats than what shows up on boxscores, cherry pick me one that makes him look good.

Ironman?

[SuperMatt18]

I think Ricardo's point was that in the 82 games last season Bouwmeester was never clearly, without a doubt, the best player on the ice while leading his team to a victory.

And when a player is making $6.68 million/season you expect him to bring that game breaking ability at least once in a season.

3 stars isn't necessarily the best stat to show that, but I think there is some truth in what he was trying to say.

[Alberta_Beef]

I think Ricardo's point was that in the 82 games last season Bouwmeester was never clearly, without a doubt, the best player on the ice while leading his team to a victory.

And when a player is making $6.68 million/season you expect him to bring that game breaking ability at least once in a season.

3 stars isn't necessarily the best stat to show that, but I think there is some truth in what he was trying to say.when is a defenseman used in a defense first capacity on a low scoring team ever considered for a star? not often. anything Ricardo says about Bouwmeester is from such an extreme perverse bias that his obsession is scary

[Reanimate]

Yeah, there are a lot more advanced stats than what shows up on boxscores, cherry pick me one that makes him look good.

Ironman?

His zone starts added with his WOWY and his QoC added to his minutes show Bouwmeester played the toughest zone starts with the worst D partner against the toughest competition. Impossible for anyone not named Lidstrom to produce in any kind of appreciable way.

I appreciate what the guy was doing this year, which was opening up easier minutes for the less effective players, such as Iginla, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Giordano, et al the chance to score some goals.

[CsInMyBlood]

His zone starts added with his WOWY and his QoC added to his minutes show Bouwmeester played the toughest zone starts with the worst D partner against the toughest competition. Impossible for anyone not named Lidstrom to produce in any kind of appreciable way.

I appreciate what the guy was doing this year, which was opening up easier minutes for the less effective players, such as Iginla, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Giordano, et al the chance to score some goals.

You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.

Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.

[Rerun]

Come on people... thats more than enough negativity about Bo. This thread is all about

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WuasmTMjMA4/TY0SS4TzIMI/AAAAAAAAFB4/6alyfOzWsqM/s1600/flowers-wallpapers-love-blooms-roses-bunch-of-flowers.jpg

http://bp1.blogger.com/_PI56ezFLHoM/Rjn-kZK9jNI/AAAAAAAAAWw/PZC3ioieTJI/s1600/8.jpg

If you can't say anything nice about JBo... lets not say anything at all. ;)

[Redlan]

You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.

Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.

The stat’s show the opposite. His defensive starts to offensive zone finish are the highest on the team. This would be the opposite if they were icing the puck. This shows that, relative to zone starts, no defenceman started more times in the defensive zone and ended his shift in the offensive zone.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

The stat’s show the opposite. His defensive starts to offensive starts are the highest on the team. This would be the opposite if they were icing the puck. This shows that, relative to zone starts, no defenceman started more times in the defensive zone and ended his shift in the offensive zone.
Offensive zone starts is different from offensive zone finishes.

[FAN]

when is a defenseman used in a defense first capacity on a low scoring team ever considered for a star? not often.
Umm... a star player, which Bouwmeester is paid to be? Bouwmeester may have been wrongly utilized by Brent, but Bouwmeester joined the Flames coming off two straight 15 goal seasons playing in all situations. You don't think Bouwmeester was given those same opportunities besides just a defense first role in his three years here? Bouwmeester was suppose to be an all situations player and he played himself out of offensive situations.

Bouwmeester plays the minutes of a typical #1 defenseman. Give me a break about defense first capacity or defensive zone starts as almost every #1 defenseman, especially those making over $6M a year, are on the ice for important defensive zone starts: Weber, Suter, Chara, Lidstrom, Keith, Pronger, etc. Bouwmeester wasn't signed to be an offensive defenseman or a defensive defenseman. He was signed to be a star defenseman who plays in all situations. He's been given ample opportunity to perform in all situations, not just defensive situations. Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities?

As for the Flames being a low scoring team, in Bouwmeester's three seasons here, this past season was where the Flames averaged the least goals a game and Bouwmeester is actually came off his most productive offensive season as a Flame (there I'll end with something nice).

[Alberta_Beef]

Umm... a star player, which Bouwmeester is paid to be? Bouwmeester may have been wrongly utilized by Brent, but Bouwmeester joined the Flames coming off two straight 15 goal seasons playing in all situations. You don't think Bouwmeester was given those same opportunities besides just a defense first role in his three years here? Bouwmeester was suppose to be an all situations player and he played himself out of offensive situations.

Bouwmeester plays the minutes of a typical #1 defenseman. Give me a break about defense first capacity or defensive zone starts as almost every #1 defenseman, especially those making over $6M a year, are on the ice for important defensive zone starts: Weber, Suter, Chara, Lidstrom, Keith, Pronger, etc. Bouwmeester wasn't signed to be an offensive defenseman or a defensive defenseman. He was signed to be a star defenseman who plays in all situations. He's been given ample opportunity to perform in all situations, not just defensive situations. Are you suggesting that Bouwmeester hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities?

As for the Flames being a low scoring team, in Bouwmeester's three seasons here, this past season was where the Flames averaged the least goals a game and Bouwmeester is actually came off his most productive offensive season as a Flame (there I'll end with something nice).
therein lies the problem, you can't stop looking beyond the dollars and thinking star player.

Perhaps after year 1, or even year 2 you would have tempered expectations a bit and seen him for what he was being used as. A stay at home defensive defenseman

and considering Bouwmeester hasn't seen 1st unit PP minutes since his first couple months with the Flames. No he hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities.

[HighLifeMan]

You do know that his zone starts are bloated because of the amount of times he or his D partner "Bouw-lite" ice the puck right? You also know he is the worst D on the Flames as far as offensive zone finish % right? Bringing up QoC, you say he had the worst D partner, yet Butler's QoC, corsi relative QoC, and corsi QoC numbers are rated higher than Bouwmeesters.

Anyways i've posted enough negative things in this I love J-Bo thread, if you would like to meet me in one of the other Bouwmeester threads to talk about how underwhelming and mediocre Bouwmeester really is I'm game.

The only reason Jay had lower QOC numbers is because he plays far more minutes. This obviously suggests he plays against a larger number of competitors. Chris Butler also missed 1/4th (ok..17%) of the season and as a result only had one defensive partner all year.

His offensive zone finishes are also fairly easy to explain as he started the most amount of any Flames regular in the defensive end. In addition to that Calgary was the worst faceoff team in the league so blaming him for the inability of the Flames to posses and transition the puck is shortsighted.

The one thing that Bouwmeester pessimists cant deny is that Brent Sutter did not play towards his strengths. When the coach publicly states that his team is incapable of scoring off the rush, it pretty much sums up that relationship. Jay Bouwmeester was put into role he had never had success in (pure shutdown defender), and quite frankly never will.

I stand firm on my position that Bouwmeester was caught in a precarious position and is a much better player than what he has shown to this point in a Flames uniform.

I understand I am being optimistic about his future here in Calgary but it is extremely difficult to have a neutral standpoint in these cases because the majority of us eat, sleep, and breath flames hockey.

[puckluck2]

Contain your Bouwners!

[FlyingDonutz]

Contain your Bouwners!

.... I lose.

[Keselke]

I wonder how all this appreciation is going to change his trade value

[FAN]

therein lies the problem, you can't stop looking beyond the dollars and thinking star player.

Perhaps after year 1, or even year 2 you would have tempered expectations a bit and seen him for what he was being used as. A stay at home defensive defenseman
The problem isn't that I can't look beyond dollars and thinking star player. The problem is there's a salary cap, the Flames are up against the cap every year, and Bouwmeester isn't worth the cap hit. An under 30 point stay-at-home defensive defenseman shouldn't be making $6.68M. And since Bouwmeester isn't a star as you seem to be implying, he shouldn't be playing so many minutes in the first place.

The Flames aren't a team who have over 10M in cap space who can afford to overpay players. The Flames have been up against the cap and overpaying nonstar players is often the recipe for missing the playoffs. I think it's stupid to ignore salary when there's a salary cap and the team is up against the cap all the time. Good players with bad contracts are not that valuable.


and considering Bouwmeester hasn't seen 1st unit PP minutes since his first couple months with the Flames. No he hasn't been given ample offensive opportunities.
So you think Bouwmeester deserves 1st unit PP minutes? I think I'll have to disagree with you there.

[Alberta_Beef]

The problem isn't that I can't look beyond dollars and thinking star player. The problem is there's a salary cap, the Flames are up against the cap every year, and Bouwmeester isn't worth the cap hit. An under 30 point stay-at-home defensive defenseman shouldn't be making $6.68M. And since Bouwmeester isn't a star as you seem to be implying, he shouldn't be playing so many minutes in the first place.

The Flames aren't a team who have over 10M in cap space who can afford to overpay players. The Flames have been up against the cap and overpaying nonstar players is often the recipe for missing the playoffs. I think it's stupid to ignore salary when there's a salary cap and the team is up against the cap all the time. Good players with bad contracts are not that valuable.


So you think Bouwmeester deserves 1st unit PP minutes? I think I'll have to disagree with you there.The Flames may have been against the cap each year lately, but we haven't exactly missed out on acquiring anyone as a result, so it really doesn't matter how much of the cap anyone takes if it is not impeding the acquisition of someone. Cap space is only valuable when you need it.

Where have I implied he was a star? I have implied no such thing. And where did I say Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time? I never, I said he never received ample offensive opportunities as you claimed. Your argument is pretty weak when you have to imagine things. Quit now while you are behind.

[FAN]

The Flames may have been against the cap each year lately, but we haven't exactly missed out on acquiring anyone as a result, so it really doesn't matter how much of the cap anyone takes if it is not impeding the acquisition of someone.
That's a pretty ignorant comment. Considering Feaster talked about being in salary cap jail, I think it's pretty clear that being up against the cap prevented Feaster from making at least a move or two that he wanted and could have made had he had cap space.


Where have I implied he was a star? I have implied no such thing.
Umm... I said that you implied that Bouwmeester isn't a star. Can you read?


And where did I say Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time? I never, I said he never received ample offensive opportunities as you claimed.
I never said that you said Bouwmeester deserved 1st unit PP time. Seems like you're imagining things. You said Bouwmeester never received ample offensive opportunities. Yet Bouwmeester was far and away the minutes leader for defenseman on the team. So please explain how Bouwmeester didn't receive ample offensive opportunities. Are you trying to defend Bouwmeester by suggesting he didn't receive ample offensive opportunites because he didn't deserve it? Hmm...


Your argument is pretty weak when you have to imagine things. Quit now while you are behind.
It seems you keep imagining that others imagine things...

[FlyingDonutz]

OBQ96J0NIdA


Please.. calm the #### down...

[Traditional_Ale]

Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.

[nik-]

Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.

Based on what?

[Rerun]

Despite the crappy contact and shortcomings in his (expected) level of play, the Flames chances of making the playoffs are improved substantially with him in the line-up.

History doesn't seem to agree with your statement.

[gilligans_off]

How are we better without him? Give your heads a shake. Given that he hasn't even missed a game for us your all just speculating that we would be better without him.

[Poe969]

Well we aren't good with him so what's the difference? Maybe we'd be better if the players we get for him in a trade help us more.

[Poe969]

And your just speculating we wouldn't be better without him. Since he's been here, have we made the playoffs?

[bubbsy]

Only way flames win a cup with bouwmeester is to go out and get a true #1 dman. Since that isn't happening, i hope they are able to utilize the asset and improve other areas of the roster.

[TangerZ]

Based on what?

Let's not over exaggerate things here. Realistically if you take Bowmeester off our team last year, we're not even competing for a playoff spot. I shudder at the thought of Giodano being our number one D-man. The last 3 years have been extremely frustrating for all us Flames fans, but to have this board constantly throw one guy under the bus when there have been so many other glaring holes on the team is ridiculous. Special teams, face-offs, blown coverages, amount of odd man rushes, point blank opportunities, horrible second periods, inability to hold leads. These are things I look at that need improvement and it's not just Bowmeester that will fix these.

[nik-]

Well yeah, if you just take him off the team and don't replace him, but you do. And it's not just about his "minutes", if you look his effectiveness with those minutes, he's average on this team, so replacing him with another top 4 defenseman hurts us a lot less than people think.

If you just went back to 2011/2012 and removed him from the ice without anyone else stepping on to play, yes it would be a huge impact.

[Reanimate]

Oh yeah. Aquiring a good top 2 guy is pretty easy. Let's trade Bouwmeester and then just replace him. Wait, what's that you say? Find a good top pairing defenseman is next to impossible right now? What's that? We have a top 2 dman right now in Bouwmeester? Well let's just trade him for assets that can help us. Like a top pairing defenseman. Wait, say that again? Everyone is looking for a top pairing Dman? Well sweet, we can trade Bouwmeester for assets and then replace him with the many, non-existant top pairing Dmen that are available.

This is how this Bouwmeester conversation has been going now for the last year or so on this site. Round and round and round the ###### merry go round.

I want to stab my eyes out.

[nik-]

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

You're calling people ######s and yet adding nothing

[Reanimate]

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

Its been discussed ad nauseum in this and the other thread. If Bouwmeester is not a top pairing guy, why is Detroit, Philly and St. Louis reportedly asking about him? You think any team wants a 6 mill a year 3/4 defenseman? No, they want him because he is a top 2 guy.

[nik-]

Actually, it's been discussed ad naseum, but it hasn't been shown ad naseum why he's a legit top 2. There is a difference between saying he's something and being able to show he's something.

[Reanimate]

Actually, it's been discussed ad naseum, but it hasn't been shown ad naseum why he's a legit top 2. There is a difference between saying he's something and being able to show he's something.

And why haven't you explained why there is a market for a so called mediocre high paid 2nd pairing dman? If he is so terrible why are very good teams wanting to acquire him?

[dissentowner]

And why haven't you explained why there is a market for a so called mediocre high paid 2nd pairing dman? If he is so terrible why are very good teams wanting to acquire him?
Because those teams are desperate for any kind of defenseman with NHL experience right now and because they still see that he has the tools to be a top pairing D man. What they don't realize is he has no toolbox to bring the goods.

[nik-]

Where is this market other than the rumour mill? If a good return was on the table for the guy he'd be gone. You're bringing up theoreticals which is all Bouwmeester defenders can really do at this point.

"We'd be worse without him"
"He's a top pairing guy on any team in the league"
"Plays top pairing and lots of minutes"

This is all that's left at this point.

[dissentowner]

I want to stab my eyes out.
I figured you already had if you claim to see Bouwmeester as a top defenceman.

[Reanimate]

Because those teams are desperate for any kind of defenseman with NHL experience right now and because they still see that he has the tools to be a top pairing D man. What they don't realize is he has no toolbox to bring the goods.

So you actually believe the GMs of very good franchises haven't done their homework on Bouwmeester?

I don't know what is more silly. The fact that you think they are stupid or that you think you are smarter than they are.

[dissentowner]

So you actually believe the GMs of very good franchises haven't done their homework on Bouwmeester?

I don't know what is more silly. The fact that you think they are stupid or that you think you are smarter than they are.
I am smart enough not to believe every rumour some 17 year old comes up with. How long has this deal been rumoured now? Again, give us anything...anything at all to show Jay Bouwmeester is worthy of being called a top pairing defenceman in a positive note. Go ahead. Oh..wait, you can't. When GM's get desperate they make bad acquisitions, NHL history has shown it time and time again.

[sketchyt]

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

You're calling people ######s and yet adding nothing

Numbers are a pretty bad way to quantify Bouwmeester's effectiveness with the Flames. They look terrible for sure.

I look at this way. If he's not a top 2 dman in the league, then it should be pretty easy to name 60 dmen better than him. That's a lot of players.

In that exercise (putting salary aside), I think I got to about 50-55 before I was really reaching to put him out of the top 60. He's a top 2 dman, but just barely.

[StrykerSteve]

Only way flames win a cup with bouwmeester is to go out and get a true #1 dman. Since that isn't happening, i hope they are able to utilize the asset and improve other areas of the roster.

Didn't they do just that by going out and acquiring Wideman, an all-star last season who led his team in scoring from the back-end by 14 points over the closest competitor?

I swear, Flames fans drive me nuts sometimes.

"We need a top defenceman!"

Flames go out and sign one of the top defenceman available. Fans respond by saying "We aren't going anywhere until we sign a defenceman!"

It's like we completely ignore the moves this team makes because they aren't the precise moves you want to see.

Another example...

"We need more scoring depth!"

Flames go out and sign one of the top FA wingers available, as well as one of the top scoring centers available from outside the NHL, and promise their top prospect makes the 2012/2013 lineup barring a disaster of biblical proportions. Fans respond by saying "This team can't score, we need more all-stars!"

Seriously, give your heads a shake. Bouwmeester is a good hockey player. Wideman is as well. There's room for both on this team, and this added depth should serve to improve the Flames overall.

Same can be said for the top 3 forward lines, which are now packed with a lot of new talent compared to one year ago at this time.

Tanguay - Cammalleri - Iginla
Glencross - Cervenka - Hudler
Baertschi - Backlund - Stempniak

The reason this team sucked the past few years, was because they were missing a lot of key pieces, not because of Jay Bouwmeester. There's no reason that this team shouldn't contend for a playoff spot with the current roster, and hopefully when they make it, people give the JBo bashing a rest already.

[CsInMyBlood]

Numbers are a pretty bad way to quantify Bouwmeester's effectiveness with the Flames. They look terrible for sure.

I look at this way. If he's not a top 2 dman in the league, then it should be pretty easy to name 60 dmen better than him. That's a lot of players.

In that exercise (putting salary aside), I think I got to about 50-55 before I was really reaching to put him out of the top 60. He's a top 2 dman, but just barely.

If the numbers look terrible and my eyes are telling me he doesn't look effective most of the time when I'm watching him and he makes the most money on my team other than the captain and my team hasn't made the playoffs since he donned a Flames jersey how do I quantify his time with my team?

[Reanimate]

If the numbers look terrible and my eyes are telling me he doesn't look effective most of the time when I'm watching him and he makes the most money on my team other than the captain and my team hasn't made the playoffs since he donned a Flames jersey how do I quantify his time with my team?

I guess thats the difference then. Because in my personal viewings I see him as a very good defenseman.

[nik-]

Numbers are a pretty bad way to quantify Bouwmeester's effectiveness with the Flames. They look terrible for sure.



Overall yeah, the most important to me is taking the goal against per 60 minutes played and comparing it to his teammates. When you do this, it's not good. The only player significantly worse last year was Hannan, Butler was a little worse in this regard as well.

Our top guy should be the best in that if he's not providing offense imo.

[dissentowner]

This thread just boggles my mind. It would be like Cleveland Browns fans making a Colt McCoy appreciation thread.

[Reanimate]

I should preface that by saying I think he didn't have a great season. He was good, but not great. But still the best Dman on the team, edging out Giordano after he returned from injury later in the season.

[CsInMyBlood]

I guess thats the difference then. Because in my personal viewings I see him as a very good defenseman.

Yeah, have you watched hockey for long? Do you ever watch teams play that aren't the Flames?

I have missed two Flames games over the last three seasons, perhaps he looked "very good" in those games I missed because I really can't comment on them.

I do acknowledge he has had "steady" games over the last three seasons, but he certainly hasn't had any stand out games where he lead the team to victory.

When you are paying somebody that much money and he plays half the game you would think he could be counted on to be a difference maker in at least a couple games over 246 total.

Maybe it's just me that thinks that way, but I severely doubt it.

[sketchyt]

If the numbers look terrible and my eyes are telling me he doesn't look effective most of the time when I'm watching him and he makes the most money on my team other than the captain and my team hasn't made the playoffs since he donned a Flames jersey how do I quantify his time with my team?

I think I outlined it previously. You quantify it with a player comparison.

For example, if you quantified Kipper's stats simply as a numbers game comparison to other goalies, he's not a top 5 goalie in this league. However, I would have serious trouble naming 5 goalies I'd rather have over him.

Same with Bouwmeester. The argument is if he's a top 2 dman. If he's not, it should be easy to name 60 dmen - salary aside - who you'd rather have on this team. I can't name 60 dmen to push him out of that list so in my mind he's a top pairing dman.

So maybe you'd like to look things only on a numbers perspective... which is fine. Numbers can be cold, hard truths. I just prefer to look at things a little wider and look at numbers (not great), what I see with my own eyes at a game (he's ok, sort of misused), and also comparing to other players as an overall depth chart (can't name 60 other dmen better than him = top pairing dman).

[Ark2]

I think I outlined it previously. You quantify it with a player comparison.

For example, if you quantified Kipper's stats simply as a numbers game comparison to other goalies, he's not a top 5 goalie in this league. However, I would have serious trouble naming 5 goalies I'd rather have over him.

Same with Bouwmeester. The argument is if he's a top 2 dman. If he's not, it should be easy to name 60 dmen - salary aside - who you'd rather have on this team. I can't name 60 dmen to push him out of that list so in my mind he's a top pairing dman.

So maybe you'd like to look things only on a numbers perspective... which is fine. Numbers can be cold, hard truths. I just prefer to look at things a little wider and look at numbers (not great), what I see with my own eyes at a game (he's ok, sort of misused), and also comparing to other players as an overall depth chart (can't name 60 other dmen better than him = top pairing dman).

I don't think it works that way. I'm not saying there are 60 better defensemen in the league, but to be able to confidently say that there is or there isn't, wouldn't you have to have seen a fair bit of hockey played by every team in the NHL?

[sketchyt]

I don't think it works that way. I'm not saying there are 60 better defensemen in the league, but to be able to confidently say that there is or there isn't, wouldn't you have to have seen a fair bit of hockey played by every team in the NHL?

Since Bouwmeester has been with the Flames I've watched pretty close to every home game live very closely. So you're right, you'd probably need to watch more hockey than that to make an exact judgement call.

Even if you don't, there's a list of 30 dmen you could probably say is better without too close of a look (i.e. Shea Weber is better than Jay Bouwmeester). It gets a little fuzzy for me at the 50 mark (i.e. when was the last time I saw Mark Streit play on the same ice as Bouwmeester?).

So for me, at that mark he's a top pairing dman. But a bad top pairing dman. I'm not saying it's science or anything... just a suggestion on how to look at it in addition to looking at the stat sheet.

[StrykerSteve]

Let's hope Hartley emphasizes these attributes under his new offense-oriented system, combined with the addition of some nice talent, perhaps we see a return to all-star form for JBo in 2012/2013! :ph34r:

Time to bump an old thread, hoping we can see more positivity than when I first created it.

Hartley has indeed removed the shackles, and we're finally seeing the real Jbo! :)

[dissentowner]

Time to bump an old thread, hoping we can see more positivity than when I first created it.

Go Jbo! :)
Does not even remotely resemble the player he was when you originally posted this. Good on him to turn it around.

[Sakari]

Lovin' J-Bo this year. Everything this organization needs in a defenseman, besides physicality. We need Gio to up the hitting game.. they'd be a great 1st pairing if he can do that.

[Trailer Fire]

Does not even remotely resemble the player he was when you originally posted this. Good on him to turn it around.

Just when you think that you gotta grip, the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Lovin' J-Bo this year. Everything this organization needs in a defenseman, besides physicality. We need Gio to up the hitting game.. they'd be a great 1st pairing if he can do that.

http://chattypics.com/files/jbo_oxlag0klbk.jpg

As you can see (and I am ultimately surprised by) JBo has lots of hits. I was amazed at his hit numbers. 200 since coming to the Flames? Unthinkable yet true!!!!

[1_Flames_Fan]

Bouwmeester = good
Gio = bad

[Brick]

I doubt if JBo goes anywhere this season.

They may trade him or his rights next season if he doesn't plan to re-sign with the Flames.

[puckluck2]

http://chattypics.com/files/jbo_oxlag0klbk.jpg

As you can see (and I am ultimately surprised by) JBo has lots of hits. I was amazed at his hit numbers. 200 since coming to the Flames? Unthinkable yet true!!!!

Lol not sure if you're serious but those hit stats are terrible.

[Huntingwhale]

Just by looking at his shot totals, you can see the chains really have been let off.

Stupid Sutter.

[BruceCody]

Bouwmeester = good
Gio = bad
Gio + Bouwmeester = bad :whaa:

[ComixZone]

Since Bouwmeester has been with the Flames I've watched pretty close to every home game live very closely. So you're right, you'd probably need to watch more hockey than that to make an exact judgement call.

Even if you don't, there's a list of 30 dmen you could probably say is better without too close of a look (i.e. Shea Weber is better than Jay Bouwmeester). It gets a little fuzzy for me at the 50 mark (i.e. when was the last time I saw Mark Streit play on the same ice as Bouwmeester?).

So for me, at that mark he's a top pairing dman. But a bad top pairing dman. I'm not saying it's science or anything... just a suggestion on how to look at it in addition to looking at the stat sheet.

I disagree completely.

He's top 30, for sure.

I'd like to see a list of 40-49 D-men you deem better than Bouwmeester, because I sincerely doubt you can honestly fill it out.

[Murph]

Bouwmeester is tied for 21st in league scoring among defensemen with games in hand on many of the guys ahead of him.

In terms of points per game average, he is tied with Keith Yandle.

Don't look now, but Jay might just be worth his $6.68M salary.

[edn88]

Don't look now, but Jay might just be worth his $6.68M salary.

Great - we should totally trade him for draft picks and some prospect that may never work out

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Bouwmeester is tied for 21st in league scoring among defensemen with games in hand on many of the guys ahead of him.

In terms of points per game average, he is tied with Keith Yandle.

Don't look now, but Jay might just be worth his $6.68M salary.

-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.

[FAN]

-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.

I agree. Chances are, Feaster is going to keep him because he's the team's best defenseman and then he's going to be re-signed and then struggle offensively again.

[Murph]

-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.

First, I said he might be worth his salary.

Second, I wish I was computer savy enough to post the excel table I created comparing the stats of ten or so of the 2014 Team Canada hopefulls. Bouwmeesters stat line is right in the middle of the pack in all categories including points, power play points, time on ice, hits, blocked shots, and most importantly salary. The guys who get paid less than him are either on long term back diving contracts (e.g. Duncan Keith) or are on entry level deals and due for a big pay day (e.g. Kris Letang, Alex Pietrangelo)

Lastly, I haven't seen anything so far this season that makes me think Bouwmeester isn't capable of keeping up his level of play for the rest of this season and beyond, so long as he is playing in the right type of system, under the right coach.

Listen, I'm not stupid enough to say Bouwmeester is a difference maker or is a steal at $6.68M, especially after what amounts to a quarter season of play. Then again, I guess it depends on your definition of difference maker. He's not a difference maker in the Shea Weber/Drew Doughty mold (both of whom get paid more than him on back diving deals by the way). But what's more of a difference maker, Doughty plastering someone with a huge open ice hit, or Bouwmeester flying back the ice to get himself back into a play and break up a two on one?

[HELPNEEDED]

First, I said he might be worth his salary.

Second, I wish I was computer savy enough to post the excel table I created comparing the stats of ten or so of the 2014 Team Canada hopefulls. Bouwmeesters stat line is right in the middle of the pack in all categories including points, power play points, time on ice, hits, blocked shots, and most importantly salary. The guys who get paid less than him are either on long term back diving contracts (e.g. Duncan Keith) or are on entry level deals and due for a big pay day (e.g. Kris Letang, Alex Pietrangelo)

Lastly, I haven't seen anything so far this season that makes me think Bouwmeester isn't capable of keeping up his level of play for the rest of this season and beyond, so long as he is playing in the right type of system, under the right coach.

Listen, I'm not stupid enough to say Bouwmeester is a difference maker or is a steal at $6.68M, especially after what amounts to a quarter season of play. Then again, I guess it depends on your definition of difference maker. He's not a difference maker in the Shea Weber/Drew Doughty mold (both of whom get paid more than him on back diving deals by the way). But what's more of a difference maker, Doughty plastering someone with a huge open ice hit, or Bouwmeester flying back the ice to get himself back into a play and break up a two on one?

Jbo is earning his pay.

[Stay Golden]

Bouwmeester this season is rounding into that player i expected him to be 3 years ago.
He is best used as a trailer on the rush.
Still has a noodle armed cork gun from the point.
Still lacks the physical element but has been at least making the attempt.

Playing allot smarter this season with confidence.
I will be curious to see how he manages when there are 15 games left in the season.
So far much much better year for Bouwmeester.

[redforever]

The JBo of the last 3 years is what you get when you try to put a square peg into a round hole. He simply was not put in a role that augmented his talents.

[Poe969]

so we're blaming the coach again?

[redforever]

so we're blaming the coach again?

Yup

[Poe969]

Then can we juts blame whoever hired the coach instead? Or the player for not listening to the coach?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

We should be blaming the coach I guess for lowering the expectations on a player, that when acquired a solid argument could be made that we were getting potentially the best D man in the league, to having the fan base do cartwheels because he is now eating a lot of minutes and jumping into the rush for his $6.7M.

[redforever]

Then can we juts blame whoever hired the coach instead? Or the player for not listening to the coach?

Who says he never listened?

I think he listened just fine but the style he was asked to play got the results you saw on the ice.

[Poe969]

Kinda what I'm getting at, JayBow was brought in to be one of the best Dmen in the league. He played like crap for the first 3 years of his contract with us, he's playing well right now so he's the best and the 3 years before this doesn't mean anything and it was the coach's fault.

WIth a contact like JayBow's, he should be able to adapt to what the coach wants and would succeed at the role he's put in.

Buyers seem to have a short memory, now that he's playing well we should capitalize on it and benefit from him, but since the Flames are now above .500 hockey he should be nominated for the norris.

[Erick Estrada]

If you pro-rate his numbers he's on pace for 16 goals and 47 points which is exactly what Darryl Sutter envisioned when he traded for his rights. I will be curiously watching him down the stretch if the Flames are in the hunt at the end of the season to see if his play drops off or if he can rise to the occasion.

[SuperMatt18]

Kinda what I'm getting at, JayBow was brought in to be one of the best Dmen in the league. He played like crap for the first 3 years of his contract with us, he's playing well right now so he's the best and the 3 years before this doesn't mean anything and it was the coach's fault.

WIth a contact like JayBow's, he should be able to adapt to what the coach wants and would succeed at the role he's put in.

Buyers seem to have a short memory, now that he's playing well we should capitalize on it and benefit from him, but since the Flames are now above .500 hockey he should be nominated for the norris.

Then the argument is: should the player be able to adapt to the coaches system or should the coach adapt and use his players in ways they will be effective.

Fact of the matter was Bouw is not the physical shutdown d-man that Sutter wanted him to be. Nothing Bouw can do could change that, he just doesn't have that element to his game.

Bouw is the fluid skating d-man that needs to be able to jump into the rush, pinch, and close space using his speed. That is what he always has been.

A player doesn't go from being one of the best in the league at jumping into the rush in Florida, to terrible at it for 3 years, to being good at it again at his own doing. Somebody was telling him to hang back and be more responsible defensively to make sure we didn't give up an odd man rush.

[GirlySports]

Then the argument is: should the player be able to adapt to the coaches system or should the coach adapt and use his players in ways they will be effective.

Fact of the matter was Bouw is not the physical shutdown d-man that Sutter wanted him to be. Nothing Bouw can do could change that, he just doesn't have that element to his game.

Bouw is the fluid skating d-man that needs to be able to jump into the rush, pinch, and close space using his speed. That is what he always has been.

A player doesn't go from being one of the best in the league at jumping into the rush in Florida, to terrible at it for 3 years, to being good at it again at his own doing. Somebody was telling him to hang back and be more responsible defensively to make sure we didn't give up an odd man rush.


yup, he was babysitting Butler.
Also it's not just Bouwmeester or the defense. In Sutter system the forwards just were not active enough. Not skating, not activiating their sticks, not 'moving their feet'.

The Iginla goal last night where the puck was stolen in the Sharks zone? I lost count how many time Flames stole the puck last night with their sticks, with their feet, whatever. That never happens under Sutter.

In hockey today, it's fast 40 seconds shifts. It's not even about hitting anymore, although a big hit once in awhile is still nice. Your 5 guys must cover more of the entire ice surface faster than their 5 guys. Sutter's 5 guys never achieved this and were continually pinned in their own zone unable to make a stretch pass to relieve pressure.

[868904]

I think Bouwmeester's offensive game is underrated and his defensive game is overated.

He's actually really good at joining the rush and supporting the forwards on offense. When he is joining the rush like he has been, he can be described as dynamic and I could see Team Canada having a use for him in that regard. There are very few defensemen in the world who can join a rush and get back on defense as fast and as fluidly as Bouwmeester.

As for his defence, I find that he needs to focus on positioning and rely more heavily on his long stick and using his smarts. He simply does not have the strength to compete physically against strong forwards and he should just stop. You don't have to be super strong or big to be effective in the defensive zone, look at Nik Lidstrom. Bouwmeester needs to watch tape of Lidstrom and learn how he defended. Having said that, Bouwmeester has had a lot of experience playing in all defensive situations and I would say he is at least an average defensive defenceman.

With all that said, I could see him being a 7th defenceman for Team Canada simply because he can play an offensive and defensive role. He has developed a versatility that not all of Canada top defensemen have and in the case of an injury to the top 6, he could fill in admirably for any one of them if need be.

[Stay Golden]

If the Flames really want a #1 Center or another 1st round pick and top prospect. Bouwmeester is having a hell of a good season thus far.

D-man Rankings
Pts 22nd
Goals tied for 7th
Ice Time 15th.

If they decide in a year to resign him they have to get that contract more in line and no NTC. Resigning Bouwmeester should be loyalty enough. If his agent i think its Meehan demands a NTC once re-negotiation begins then trade him.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I think Bouwmeester's offensive game is underrated and his defensive game is overated.

He's actually really good at joining the rush and supporting the forwards on offense. When he is joining the rush like he has been, he can be described as dynamic and I could see Team Canada having a use for him in that regard. There are very few defensemen in the world who can join a rush and get back on defense as fast and as fluidly as Bouwmeester.

As for his defence, I find that he needs to focus on positioning and rely more heavily on his long stick and using his smarts. He simply does not have the strength to compete physically against strong forwards and he should just stop. You don't have to be super strong or big to be effective in the defensive zone, look at Nik Lidstrom. Bouwmeester needs to watch tape of Lidstrom and learn how he defended. Having said that, Bouwmeester has had a lot of experience playing in all defensive situations and I would say he is at least an average defensive defenceman.

With all that said, I could see him being a 7th defenceman for Team Canada simply because he can play an offensive and defensive role. He has developed a versatility that not all of Canada top defensemen have and in the case of an injury to the top 6, he could fill in admirably for any one of them if need be.

But last year I think his defense was very underrated. This was a guy going up against the best players in the league with Butler as his defense partner. It was a no-win situation for him but I think he did about as good on defense as you could expect without being a true franchise defenseman. Others, obviously, heavily disagree with me on that.

Now that he's in an offensive system his defense has taken a hit, which isn't exactly surprising. I think he's a player that could be a defensive rock on a defensive team if asked to play that role, or an offensive catalyst on an offensive team if asked to play that role. And that's probably because of his speed. His problem I feel is finding a balance and being able to play in it. He's probably as close to finding it as he has been in the last 5 years though.

[ignite09]

Yeah, he's much better than just average on defense.

[ricardodw]

And as the Flames get within a playoff spot and need their best highest paid defenseman to step up and lead.......

[Psytic]

Nearly everyone outside of Glenncross is overpaid on this team not just Jbo. I can't think of anyone else that is a deal right now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Bouw for Stastny. Colorado has O'Reilly now and aren't sore about the offer sheet thing, right?

[Poe969]

We should not target Stastny, he's over paid and over hyped. It would only be trading away one problem in JayBow for another in Stastny.

I think the Wings and Flyers really want him, go after picks and prospects.

[PeteMoss]

Bouwmeester is the only Flames d-man who can play against top line forwards and after watching Giordano try to do it this year, suddenly Butler attempt at it last year doesn't look so bad.

[Erick Estrada]

Bouwmeester is the only Flames d-man who can play against top line forwards and after watching Giordano try to do it this year, suddenly Butler attempt at it last year doesn't look so bad.

That is the problem Flames management faces. The guy's is a legit top pairing defenseman and if you trade him you are going to have guys like Brodie, Giordano, Butler, etc playing more to pick up the 25+ minutes Bouwmeester logs. Not exactly promising although it would be an opportunity to bring Breen up.

Problem is that he's not the difference maker he's paid to be and he's probably going to bolt at the end of next season. It's one of those things where you can justify moving him by saying that you are already 15th and the team can't fall any further. If they are still on this 'win now' direction they surely may believe it's better to keep him and trade him at the deadline next season if the opportunity is presented.

[Poe969]

Bouwmeester is the only Flames d-man who can play against top line forwards and after watching Giordano try to do it this year, suddenly Butler attempt at it last year doesn't look so bad.


Ya, if one of those guys were forced to take JayBow's minutes we'd probably end up 15th in west.....wait... You mean if we traded him we wouldn't be able to make that late season push to 9th?

Arguing about saving this season is kind of a joke. The Flames aren't making the playoffs. Next year we should be moving forward and we need to find tallent from within if we're going to be good, having JayBow on the team making around 10% of the cap wouldn't make sense. If we can move him now, we'd aquire assets and probably end up not doing as well as we've been doing (lol) OR someone might step up to replace JayBow.

If we don't trade him and keep this team as is, we're going to get the same results we've been getting and that's not good. Sometimes change for the sake of change is good, heck we might even jump up to 14th if we make the right moves!

[Stay Golden]

If the Flames and Iginla decide to resign. They are likely to be picking in the top 5 for the draft.

The way Bouwmeester has played this season and how GM's covet big ice time logging mobile D men. Jay could get the Flames another 1st round pick.
There will not be many high ice time D men available and it seems to be every draft deadline that is what most GM's are trying to find.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Flames going into the draft with 2 first round picks.
They could even flip the later 1st round pick for a trade. Center or tougher stay at home D man.

[bubbsy]

bouwmeester is pretty avg. Not overly smart, good skater, extremely weak and non-physical.

i actually think he should NOT play against other team's best lines, as unless he's playing overly offensive, he's simply not good enough as a defensive dman.

hopefully his value has increased a bit this season, but this is a contract that flames need to move.

His EA "poise" score should be 12 out of a possible 100. His play with the puck last night with the goalie pulled was just laughable.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Hartley talking about Brown's goal, said that Brown can't be left all alone and "we all know who should be covering that".

Bouw (and also a lot of the time this year Comeau) should understand that you can't just stand in front of the net and watch the puck carrier. He will not be passing it to you. He will be passing it to someone who is going to be moving away from you when you are not looking. Yeesh.

There is a reason he is in the top few D men in the league for GA every year. And why he has never made the playoffs.

And about the top minutes against top players, it's not Crosby or Malkin lighting him up, it is guys like Raffi Torres blowing around him.

[ricardodw]

If the Flames and Iginla decide to resign. They are likely to be picking in the top 5 for the draft.

The way Bouwmeester has played this season and how GM's covet big ice time logging mobile D men. Jay could get the Flames another 1st round pick.
There will not be many high ice time D men available and it seems to be every draft deadline that is what most GM's are trying to find.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Flames going into the draft with 2 first round picks.
They could even flip the later 1st round pick for a trade. Center or tougher stay at home D man.

The Flames need a big ice time logging mobile D man. Would you give up a 1st round for him to join the Flames? You also have him as your highest paid player when you need to drop the cap by 6-7M next year?