NHL Attendance Report - 2011-12

[MotoRacer]

NHL Attendance Report - 2011-12

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance


2011-12 Attendance Home Road Overall
RK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT
1 Chicago 36 774,900 21,525 105 35 17,586 96.5 71 19,583 101.1
2 Montreal 35 744,555 21,273 100 35 17,476 96.7 70 19,374 98.5
3 Philadelphi 33 679,197 20,581 108.8 36 17,190 94.5 69 18,812 101.5
4 Detroit 34 684,244 20,124 100.7 36 17,792 97.1 70 18,925 99
5 Toronto 35 683,350 19,524 103.7 35 17,628 96.1 70 18,576 100
6 Calgary 34 655,826 19,289 100 36 17,053 93.1 70 18,139 96.5
7 Ottawa 35 672,718 19,220 100.4 35 17,179 93.8 70 18,199 97.1
8 Vancouver 33 623,130 18,882 102.5 36 17,565 95.8 69 18,195 99
9 St. Louis 37 695,002 18,783 98.1 34 17,268 94.2 71 18,058 96.3
10 Pittsburgh 34 631,065 18,560 102.6 34 17,936 97.8 68 18,248 100.2
11 Buffalo 36 667,108 18,530 99.9 34 17,751 97 70 18,152 98.5
12 Washington 36 666,216 18,506 101.3 34 17,323 94.8 70 17,931 98.1
13 Tampa Bay 34 626,494 18,426 96 35 17,090 93.8 69 17,748 94.9
14 NY Rangers 33 600,252 18,189 99.9 36 18,579 105.5 69 18,392 102.8
15 Los Angeles 35 625,624 17,874 99.9 35 15,922 87.5 70 16,898 93.7
16 Minnesota 33 585,551 17,743 98.2 37 16,800 92 70 17,245 94.9
17 Boston 35 614,755 17,564 100 34 18,580 99.9 69 18,064 99.9
18 San Jose 33 579,580 17,563 100 36 17,180 94.5 69 17,363 97.1
19 Edmonton 35 589,365 16,839 100 34 17,335 94.2 69 17,083 97
20 Nashville 36 598,759 16,632 97.2 33 16,844 91.4 69 16,733 94.3
21 Florida 35 576,087 16,459 85.7 34 17,427 95.9 69 16,936 90.6
22 Carolina 36 565,191 15,699 84 34 17,346 95 70 16,499 89.3
23 Colorado 37 569,593 15,394 85.5 34 17,535 95.8 71 16,419 90.5
24 New Jersey 34 517,995 15,235 86.4 36 17,318 94.9 70 16,306 90.9
25 Winnipeg 35 525,140 15,004 100 34 17,893 95.6 69 16,427 97.6
26 Columbus 35 510,292 14,579 80.4 34 17,587 95.1 69 16,061 87.7
27 Anaheim 34 492,560 14,487 84.8 36 16,828 92.7 70 15,691 89
28 Dallas 35 478,195 13,662 73.7 35 16,572 90.8 70 15,117 82.2
29 NY Islander 36 471,485 13,096 80.7 34 17,483 95.2 70 15,227 88.2
30 Phoenix 36 438,153 12,170 71.1 34 16,813 91.9 70 14,425 81.5


How can 8 teams have over 100% at home?




CALGARY FLAMES ATTENDANCE CHART;
Home Road Overall
RK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT
2011-12 6 Calgary 34 655826 19289 100 36 17053 93.1 70 18139 96.5
2010-11 6 Calgary 40 771560 19289 100 41 16558 90.6 81 17906 95.3
2009-10 5 Calgary 41 790849 19289 100 41 16851 92.2 82 18070 96.2
2008-09 6 Calgary 41 790849 19289 100 41 17273 93.9 82 18281 97
2007-08 6 Calgary 41 790849 19289 100 41 16860 91.9 82 18074 96
2006-07 6 Calgary 41 790849 19289 100 41 17053 93 82 18171 96.6
2005-06 7 Calgary 41 790849 19289 100 41 16812 -- 82 18050 --
2003-04 16 Calgary 41 679767 16579 86 41 16863 -- 82 16721 --
2002-03 17 Calgary 41 665808 16239 84 41 16431 -- 82 16335 --
2001-02 21 Calgary 41 644466 15718 82 41 16230 -- 82 15974 --
2000-01 15 Calgary 41 681535 16622 86 41 16504 -- 82 16563 --

[Trojan97]

Pretty damn impressive to see 2/3 of the league essentially selling out on a nightly basis. The league has come a very long way in a short period of time.

[OffsideSpecialist]

How can 8 teams have over 100% at home?

I'm pretty sure that many teams only count seats in their capacity and not standing room. At Scotiabank Place I believe a sellout is 19,300 (or something) but the arena can hold up to 20,500 once standing room is included.

Also, is this the first time in the past few years that the Flames have averaged below a sellout? I always seem to remember the Flames attendance being an average of 100% or up ever since the lockout.

[getbak]

Also, is this the first time in the past few years that the Flames have averaged below a sellout? I always seem to remember the Flames attendance being an average of 100% or up ever since the lockout.
The Flames are still at the 19,289 (100%) they've been at since the lockout.

Last season, they didn't include the Heritage and Winter Classics in their host team's attendance, but they did again this year, which is why Philly's percentage is so high.

[OffsideSpecialist]

The Flames are still at the 19,289 (100%) they've been at since the lockout.

Ahh, okay the OP's numbers included both home and away games. When I went to the link I saw that Calgary's home attendance is still 100%. Thanks.

[GGG]

Ahh, okay the OP's numbers included both home and away games. When I went to the link I saw that Calgary's home attendance is still 100%. Thanks.

Why does calgary lie about their attendance. There are clearly seats in the press level available for every weekday game.

[OffsideSpecialist]

Why does calgary lie about their attendance. There are clearly seats in the press level available for every weekday game.

It's not just Calgary. When I went to the Sens and Flames game there was an entire row of empty seats near me in the 300s yet the attendance was 20,500. It could be scalpers that weren't able to sell their seats, particularly for weeknight games. I know many scalpers offer to sell weeknight games for cheap on Stubhub of Kijiji or whatever, and don't care if they do not sell because they make all their money off big game and weekend tickets. So those seats could be sold but not occupied.

[Resolute 14]

Why does calgary lie about their attendance. There are clearly seats in the press level available for every weekday game.

All teams post tickets distributed, not turnstile count. As far as the Flames are concerned for one example, the west 300s are all sold tickets to Sport Chek regardless of whether Sport Chek can re-sell them. The Flames distribute all 19,289 tickets they make available to the games so that is the number they report.

[MotoRacer]

added Calgary's attendance chart 2000-2011 above

[pylon]

Phoenix:

Avg: 12,170

Haha, you wish!

I think there is a decimal missing there.

[Azure]

They probably sell that many tickets each game. Obviously not as many people are there though.

[Diverce]

Phoenix:

Avg: 1,217

Haha, you wish!

I think there is a decimal missing there.

fyp... comma was misplaced

[MisterJoji]

Bettman: "With the right ownership group, Phoenix can be a viable, successful franchise"

Give it up all ready. Take solace in the fact that there have been a number of successful franchises within the sun-belt of America on your watch. Nashville, LA, San Jose. Unfortunately, Phoenix has not been one of them. Time to move on.

[Resolute 14]

12,170.1?

[Spinoff90]

Sad to see the Jets barely doing better than the likes of the Blue Jackets even though they are selling out games. Why didn't they future proof a little better and build a slightly bigger arena on the chance the Jets would be back instead of having an arena that isn't even 10 years old and is one of the smallest in the league now. Even seats less than the old Winnipeg Arena :confused:

[Bownesian]

Fixed to make it legible.

2011-12 Attendance Home Road Overall
RK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT
1 Chicago 36 774,900 21,525 105 35 17,586 96.5 71 19,583 101.1
2 Montreal 35 744,555 21,273 100 35 17,476 96.7 70 19,374 98.5
3 Philadelphi 33 679,197 20,581 108.8 36 17,190 94.5 69 18,812 101.5
4 Detroit 34 684,244 20,124 100.7 36 17,792 97.1 70 18,925 99
5 Toronto 35 683,350 19,524 103.7 35 17,628 96.1 70 18,576 100
6 Calgary 34 655,826 19,289 100 36 17,053 93.1 70 18,139 96.5
7 Ottawa 35 672,718 19,220 100.4 35 17,179 93.8 70 18,199 97.1
8 Vancouver 33 623,130 18,882 102.5 36 17,565 95.8 69 18,195 99
9 St. Louis 37 695,002 18,783 98.1 34 17,268 94.2 71 18,058 96.3
10 Pittsburgh 34 631,065 18,560 102.6 34 17,936 97.8 68 18,248 100.2
11 Buffalo 36 667,108 18,530 99.9 34 17,751 97 70 18,152 98.5
12 Washington 36 666,216 18,506 101.3 34 17,323 94.8 70 17,931 98.1
13 Tampa Bay 34 626,494 18,426 96 35 17,090 93.8 69 17,748 94.9
14 NY Rangers 33 600,252 18,189 99.9 36 18,579 105.5 69 18,392 102.8
15 Los Angeles 35 625,624 17,874 99.9 35 15,922 87.5 70 16,898 93.7
16 Minnesota 33 585,551 17,743 98.2 37 16,800 92 70 17,245 94.9
17 Boston 35 614,755 17,564 100 34 18,580 99.9 69 18,064 99.9
18 San Jose 33 579,580 17,563 100 36 17,180 94.5 69 17,363 97.1
19 Edmonton 35 589,365 16,839 100 34 17,335 94.2 69 17,083 97
20 Nashville 36 598,759 16,632 97.2 33 16,844 91.4 69 16,733 94.3
21 Florida 35 576,087 16,459 85.7 34 17,427 95.9 69 16,936 90.6
22 Carolina 36 565,191 15,699 84 34 17,346 95 70 16,499 89.3
23 Colorado 37 569,593 15,394 85.5 34 17,535 95.8 71 16,419 90.5
24 New Jersey 34 517,995 15,235 86.4 36 17,318 94.9 70 16,306 90.9
25 Winnipeg 35 525,140 15,004 100 34 17,893 95.6 69 16,427 97.6
26 Columbus 35 510,292 14,579 80.4 34 17,587 95.1 69 16,061 87.7
27 Anaheim 34 492,560 14,487 84.8 36 16,828 92.7 70 15,691 89
28 Dallas 35 478,195 13,662 73.7 35 16,572 90.8 70 15,117 82.2
29 NY Islander 36 471,485 13,096 80.7 34 17,483 95.2 70 15,227 88.2
30 Phoenix 36 438,153 12,170 71.1 34 16,813 91.9 70 14,425 81.5

[pylon]

Whoa^^^^

Mind blown at the scrolly thing, how does one make that happen?

[pylon]

nm

[troutman]

Sad to see the Jets barely doing better than the likes of the Blue Jackets even though they are selling out games. Why didn't they future proof a little better and build a slightly bigger arena on the chance the Jets would be back instead of having an arena that isn't even 10 years old and is one of the smallest in the league now. Even seats less than the old Winnipeg Arena :confused:

Barely doing better? WIN is top ten in revenues because they charge high ticket prices. They don't want a larger rink. Demand is high, because supply is low.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

Sad to see the Jets barely doing better than the likes of the Blue Jackets even though they are selling out games. Why didn't they future proof a little better and build a slightly bigger arena on the chance the Jets would be back instead of having an arena that isn't even 10 years old and is one of the smallest in the league now. Even seats less than the old Winnipeg Arena :confused:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zrjuYgZKUns/Tqn-HYcFalI/AAAAAAAABv8/R1NW_WFYsO4/s1600/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

[malcolmk14]

I would rather see gate receipt stats but the NHL and Flames would never release those

[zarrell]

Sad to see the Jets barely doing better than the likes of the Blue Jackets even though they are selling out games. Why didn't they future proof a little better and build a slightly bigger arena on the chance the Jets would be back instead of having an arena that isn't even 10 years old and is one of the smallest in the league now. Even seats less than the old Winnipeg Arena :confused:

The old Winnipeg arena only held about 13k.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

The old Winnipeg arena only held about 13k.

Winnipeg Arena was closer to 15,000 actually

[Erick Estrada]

Barely doing better? WIN is top ten in revenues because they charge high ticket prices. They don't want a larger rink. Demand is high, because supply is low.

Really the current rink is the perfect size as they will sell out more than not over the years and keeps demand up. IMO there isn't enough people in the city to fill an 18,000+ seat arena consistently on an annual basis once the team settles in and the novelty wears off as it does with all franchises.

[BlackRedGold25]

Sad to see the Jets barely doing better than the likes of the Blue Jackets even though they are selling out games. Why didn't they future proof a little better and build a slightly bigger arena on the chance the Jets would be back instead of having an arena that isn't even 10 years old and is one of the smallest in the league now. Even seats less than the old Winnipeg Arena :confused:

It's because Winnipeg is just a temporary home until the team moves to Toronto. Look at David Thomson's ties with Bell. They'll eventually work out a deal with the Leafs to play in Toronto.

[zarrell]

Winnipeg Arena was closer to 15,000 actually

Correct. I was probably thinking of their average attendance the last few years.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

Correct. I was probably thinking of their average attendance the last few years.

actually during most of the Jets 1.0 era 13k is what you would expect. The original arena itself was quite small and they had to Frankenstein the thing to get more people in it. It's not like Nassau Memorial for the Islanders where the worst seats are still great views. The worst seats at the old barn were really really bad. So they were hard sells for sure.

[troutman]

I would rather see gate receipt stats but the NHL and Flames would never release those

+1

Attendance figures in many US arenas are dubious, where so many tickets are given away or are extremely cheap.

[FakenHaken]

+1

Attendance figures in many US arenas are dubious, where so many tickets are given away or are extremely cheap.

Just kind of funny story troutman to share:

Went down recently to Phoenix. The main intent was to take my family to the Suns and Lakers game. However, we decided to go to the Stars and Phoenix game for something to do on a Saturday Night. Never purchased tickets before the game, because we thought this should be a slam dunk. Was approached by a scalper for 5 tickets $70/seat. Thought to myself well I'll just go to the ticket window and pick them up atleast I know they won't be conterfeit. Ticket Window sorry sold out, all we have is $40.00/person standing room only. I politely said no thank you, as I had my 10 year old boy with me and I don't think I'd pay $40/person to stand and watch a hockey game. Anyways, not sure if this was just a one off type of night or what was going on.

[WinnipegFan]

Nice to see all the Canadian teams at 100%. I guess we can handle NHL teams!

[GGG]

All teams post tickets distributed, not turnstile count. As far as the Flames are concerned for one example, the west 300s are all sold tickets to Sport Chek regardless of whether Sport Chek can re-sell them. The Flames distribute all 19,289 tickets they make available to the games so that is the number they report.


I am still not even buying that they distribute 19,289 tickets for every game. Both sides of the 3rd press level have entire sections which are un-occupied during the week. So it isn't just the Sportchek side.

Also do sport chek get all the tickets to those sections or just a portion of them. In the past I had bought tickets through the flames to both sides of the 300 level and sat in the sportchek zone. So at least 4 years ago sportchek did not have all of one side in the 300 level.

[nfotiu]

+1

Attendance figures in many US arenas are dubious, where so many tickets are given away or are extremely cheap.

No kidding, when I worked in Raleigh, I was probably offered free lower bowl seats from 5 different people every game day, or could have got a free one with a case of Coke, or tank of gas. Especially for weeknight games.

[JayP]

All teams post tickets distributed, not turnstile count. As far as the Flames are concerned for one example, the west 300s are all sold tickets to Sport Chek regardless of whether Sport Chek can re-sell them. The Flames distribute all 19,289 tickets they make available to the games so that is the number they report.

This becomes an issue when Sport Chek's contract with the Flames expires (or if it's a yearly agreement) and they eliminate the concept of the Sport Chek zone as they clearly aren't selling all their seats purchased from the Flames.

Attendance is going to start becoming a real issue for the Flames in the near future. Based on the complete lack of walk-up sales (ie; last minute tickets available for nearly every game including Canadien and Oiler games), once these bulk ticket agreements start to expire there's going to rows of empty seats on a nightly basis.

[Resolute 14]

Sport Chek rarely sold the entire section when the Flames sucked in the early 2000s. I doubt they are paying a huge price for those seats. Hell, it is probably a case where Sport Chek only pays for the tickets they do sell. That is probably also why the Flames will sell seats from those sections themselves as well.

As far as last minute tickets go, the league mandates that teams hold back a certain number of seats for the visiting team, league officials, etc. Most of those get released at the last minute. Even at the peak of ticket demand, if you were willing to pay, you could find these seats appearing on Ticketmaster on the day of game.

[Lt.Spears]

It would be interesting to see the the decline in actual attendance since 04.

[troutman]

European attendance figures:

SC Bern 10th time on top
Swiss club and Swedish league lead European attendance rankings
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/recap/6508.html?tx_ttnews

In the 2011/2012 season, Europe had for the first time seven clubs that reached the 10,000-fan mark. The previous record was five clubs (2006, 2007, 2009, 2010).

This is a real team - Hamburg Freezers

[JayP]

Sport Chek rarely sold the entire section when the Flames sucked in the early 2000s. I doubt they are paying a huge price for those seats. Hell, it is probably a case where Sport Chek only pays for the tickets they do sell. That is probably also why the Flames will sell seats from those sections themselves as well.

As far as last minute tickets go, the league mandates that teams hold back a certain number of seats for the visiting team, league officials, etc. Most of those get released at the last minute. Even at the peak of ticket demand, if you were willing to pay, you could find these seats appearing on Ticketmaster on the day of game.

Sport Chek likely had to pay a lot less for the deal in the early 2000s. And if Sport Chek only pays for the tickets they do sell then the Flames have to be fudging the attendance numbers because there are tons of empty seats up there for weekday games. It's one or the other.

The Flames never sent emails out the day of the game before the last couple years and not nearly at the same frequency as this year. They are sent almost every single game now. In fact, the only ones are I can remember not getting one for in months are Winnipeg and San Jose (for obvious reasons). So clearly it's related to walk-up ticket sales lacking if the email isn't sent for games that are obvious sell-outs.

[valo403]

Sport Chek likely had to pay a lot less for the deal in the early 2000s. And if Sport Chek only pays for the tickets they do sell then the Flames have to be fudging the attendance numbers because there are tons of empty seats up there for weekday games. It's one or the other.

The Flames never sent emails out the day of the game before the last couple years and not nearly at the same frequency as this year. They are sent almost every single game now. In fact, the only ones are I can remember not getting one for in months are Winnipeg and San Jose (for obvious reasons). So clearly it's related to walk-up ticket sales lacking if the email isn't sent for games that are obvious sell-outs.

No it isn't, tickets distributed and tickets paid for are not the same thing.

[Spinoff90]

Barely doing better? WIN is top ten in revenues because they charge high ticket prices. They don't want a larger rink. Demand is high, because supply is low.

Well seeing as how everything in those numbers is about attendance numbers with no mention of revenue I think it is obvious what I meant. But high ticket prices? Last I heard about their prices season tickets were a hot dog in the other Canadian markets :blink: They could fill a larger arena and demand is high because the Jets are back not because there are a lack of seats in an arena built for a WHL team. If demand is going to drop once the hype wears off then they shouldn't have got a team back.

[Resolute 14]

No it isn't, tickets distributed and tickets paid for are not the same thing.

You're both right, depending on how you split the hairs. Everyone wants the turnstile count, but that is almost never released. The numbers we do get are always fudged as a result. Doesn't matter if it is Calgary, Phoenix, Montreal or Winnipeg.

[pylon]

Sport Chek likely had to pay a lot less for the deal in the early 2000s. And if Sport Chek only pays for the tickets they do sell then the Flames have to be fudging the attendance numbers because there are tons of empty seats up there for weekday games. It's one or the other.

The Flames never sent emails out the day of the game before the last couple years and not nearly at the same frequency as this year. They are sent almost every single game now. In fact, the only ones are I can remember not getting one for in months are Winnipeg and San Jose (for obvious reasons). So clearly it's related to walk-up ticket sales lacking if the email isn't sent for games that are obvious sell-outs.

Sport Chek zone came after 2004. They had those seats tarped from about 97-98 up until the 2004 playoffs. So Sport Chek and Co-Op who had the other side (i think they did for a season at least, might be wrong on that) were never involved in the early 2000's.

[troutman]

Well seeing as how everything in those numbers is about attendance numbers with no mention of revenue I think it is obvious what I meant. But high ticket prices? Last I heard about their prices season tickets were a hot dog in the other Canadian markets :blink: They could fill a larger arena and demand is high because the Jets are back not because there are a lack of seats in an arena built for a WHL team. If demand is going to drop once the hype wears off then they shouldn't have got a team back.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/26/nhl-prices-hit-canadians-hardest

WIN has the second highest average ticket price in the NHL.

True North has said that 15,000 is the perfect size for what they need to do in Winnipeg.

The Flames are considering building a SMALLER building (18,000) than the Dome, with more boxes.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

Doesn't that article show Winnipeg as being 2nd highest in the league?

[Resolute 14]

Sport Chek zone came after 2004. They had those seats tarped from about 97-98 up until the 2004 playoffs. So Sport Chek and Co-Op who had the other side (i think they did for a season at least, might be wrong on that) were never involved in the early 2000's.

Nope. The east 300s were tarped after row 3, but the west 300s were open and tickets sold through Sport Chek. Co-op has a couple sections in the upper bowl end. Both groups were involved since at least 2000, and I usually took advantage of their offers back then. Especially for games I knew where an usher would come around and upgrade people to the lower bowl because it was a game on TSN.

[MotoRacer]

falling fast

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

[MarkGio]

falling fast

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

Low scoring hockey? Less fights?

I mean, the league is now at 50/50 split, just had world cup, no more fights, 3-on-3, big TV deal, and outdoor games, so what possibly be the issue? The game is being played exactly how Bettman wanted it.

[memphusk]

Game is soft. Half the problem.

[jayswin]

Carolina announced about 8500 last night, and I would suspect there were at least a couple thousand less. They've had a bunch of games over the past two seasons that people speculate were less than 5000 actual people.

I truly believe those rumors that we'll see the Hurricanes moved to Quebec near or at the end of this season. It's really shaping up to be like the Thrashers to Winnipeg announcement.

The persistent rumors of Carolina owners meeting in Quebec and vice versa, Quebecor dropping out of the expansion race after originally being all in. (I know they spoke of the Canadian economy but they probably got wind of this much better deal, imo).

[Locke]

Low scoring hockey? Less fights?

I mean, the league is now at 50/50 split, just had world cup, no more fights, 3-on-3, big TV deal, and outdoor games, so what possibly be the issue? The game is being played exactly how Bettman wanted it.

I wonder if the World Cup plays into it. Big, Expensive Tournament, kind of made the opening of the season a bit 'meh.'

Its like having the playoffs before the regular season. The normal, everyday product can seem a bit dull in comparison.

Over-saturation?

[jayswin]

Game is soft. Half the problem.

It's become a pretty weak product if you ask me.

I wouldn't even be that against the transition if the speed and finesse had taken over for the hard hitting, rough game. But like every new style that the league tries to implement to force more excitement - the coaches outsmart it and bring it back down to simplicity and manageable systems.

Coaches and systems has always been the leagues worst enemy, but also not something you can really take away. I mean am I the only one that watches a game and sees the amazing speed and skill of the players individually and goes "Well yeah, I can see how this collection of players could make an incredible entertaining game but instead they're all playing perfect man on man coverage and rigid systems so it's all wasted."?

[MarkGio]

Game is soft. Half the problem.

I think the league needs to fix the reffing, for one. I'm sick of humans subjectively flip flopping, missing calls, or trying to manage the game. With today's technology where a surveillance system in Vegas can tell if a player is cheating, you think they can make a fair system in every arena.

[Jojado]

falling fast

http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

Guess the numbers for Winnipeg mean that they're factoring in the Heritage Classic? MTS Centre can only hold around 15,000 ...

Not long ago, many teams would report a sellout even though the building was nowhere close to selling out. We're seeing numbers that are closer to the true numbers nows.

In the case of the Flames, I've noticed large blocks of unsold seats suddenly disappear from Ticketmaster, particularly in 102-106. Does that mean that someone suddenly bought 200 tickets? We all know that fans get moved to the lower sections to look good for TV.

[MarkGio]

I wonder if the World Cup plays into it. Big, Expensive Tournament, kind of made the opening of the season a bit 'meh.'

Its like having the playoffs before the regular season. The normal, everyday product can seem a bit dull in comparison.

Over-saturation?
Its hard to say. It's not like the Olympics messes with the SC playoffs. Or the Olympics with basketball messes with the reg season. You would think it would get people pumped where they would otherwise be reading about the preseason exercises.

I think this is the perfect time for the league to maximize. Basketball has no parity with these super teams basically just rolling over the competition. And Baseball doesn't have the McGuires and Sosas juiced up hitting dingers. So why not draw in the other fans?

[N-E-B]

Teams don't have identities anymore. They're all playing the same generic style. I still love hockey but it's becoming too standard.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Low scoring hockey? Less fights?

I mean, the league is now at 50/50 split, just had world cup, no more fights, 3-on-3, big TV deal, and outdoor games, so what possibly be the issue? The game is being played exactly how Bettman wanted it.

What? No.

Game is soft. Half the problem.

What? No.

I think the league needs to fix the reffing, for one. I'm sick of humans subjectively flip flopping, missing calls, or trying to manage the game. With today's technology where a surveillance system in Vegas can tell if a player is cheating, you think they can make a fair system in every arena.

What? No.



There are all kinds of reasons why attendance may be down. None of them are related to fighting, 3 on 3 or reffing.

Popularity of hockey, cost of tickets, competition for entertainment dollars, economic uncertainty are all far more likely.

[jayswin]

Its hard to say. It's not like the Olympics messes with the SC playoffs. Or the Olympics with basketball messes with the reg season. You would think it would get people pumped where they would otherwise be reading about the preseason exercises.

I think this is the perfect time for the league to maximize. Basketball has no parity with these super teams basically just rolling over the competition. And Baseball doesn't have the McGuires and Sosas juiced up hitting dingers. So why not draw in the other fans?

Poor example using the NBA and actually a case study in how maybe parity isn't the great fix that leagues have been looking to achieve. The NBA's popularity is soaring right now. A few years ago they were actually in danger of being unseated by the NHL in the four major sports.

If anything I'm now starting to wonder if the extra revenue from teams that are slightly out of the playoffs, but not actually going to make it isn't all that much more than when teams are really out of it. And maybe the extra revenue from having elite teams that fans come out in other cities to see and tune it on TV to see more than make up for the missed revenue in lack of parody.

[worth]

We haven't been selling out this year?

[jayswin]

I mean just anecdotally does Phoenix or Anaheim or Brooklyn really have a significant difference in attendance when they're in 10th place and 6 points out but need a miracle to get in over the other two teams compared to being 12 points out and playing out the stretch?

And would the alternative of having the super teams bring in way more casual viewers on TV and also some more tickets from visiting arenas for the super teams and actually make the sport more popular overall? It seems it's working in the NBA despite the anger of hardcore fans.

Obviously there's flaws in my theory as I just thought of it and spit it out, but maybe an interesting debate?

[MarkGio]

What? No.



What? No.



What? No.



There are all kinds of reasons why attendance may be down. None of them are related to fighting, 3 on 3 or reffing.

Popularity of hockey, cost of tickets, competition for entertainment dollars, economic uncertainty are all far more likely.

You say that as if it's a fact. Do you have a link to support your claims?

[jayswin]

We haven't been selling out this year?

Not even close. We've had a couple sell outs, but mostly we've had 1-2 thousand available tickets before the games. That doesn't even account for scalpers and others taking a bath on unsold tickets and people just not showing up because they're pissed at the product.

It's looked a lot closer to 15k then 19289 most nights. It could be worse, Ottawa's already announced a 13k game. We haven't seen an attendance announced that low in Canada in probably a decade or more. I saw the game too and it honestly looked like a strong Coyotes turnout.

[MarkGio]

I mean just anecdotally does Phoenix or Anaheim or Brooklyn really have a significant difference in attendance when they're in 10th place and 6 points out but need a miracle to get in over the other two teams compared to being 12 points out and playing out the stretch?

And would the alternative of having the super teams bring in way more casual viewers on TV and also some more tickets from visiting arenas for the super teams and actually make the sport more popular overall? It seems it's working in the NBA despite the anger of hardcore fans.

Obviously there's flaws in my theory as I just thought of it and spit it out, but maybe an interesting debate?

More viewers doesn't mean more money, but TV deals, ticket sales and merchandise would.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

You say that as if it's a fact. Do you have a link to support your claims?

Lol. Just to be clear, you made a bunch of bs claims and ridiculous assertions and when I called BS your first instinct is to ask for a citation? Good luck with that.

[jayswin]

More viewers doesn't mean more money, but TV deals, ticket sales and merchandise would.

Did you seriously just type out that more viewers on TV doesn't mean more money but TV deals do? :blink:

I would like to quote you in a certain thread but I need to know that you actually meant it first. Thank you.

[MarkGio]

Lol. Just to be clear, you made a bunch of bs claims and ridiculous assertions and when I called BS your first instinct is to ask for a citation? Good luck with that.

Jesus how are you able to function in life with such piss poor reading and comprehension skills? I feel bad for your poor parents who have to care for you even into your twilight years.

My first quote asked questions. It said "Less fights?", so how is that a claim or assertion? My second post literally started with the words "I think...", so really son, don't use big boy words like assertions if you don't know what they mean.

Leave the thinking to those capable, OK?

[MarkGio]

Did you seriously just type out that more viewers on TV doesn't mean more money but TV deals do? :blink:

I would like to quote you in a certain thread but I need to know that you actually meant it first. Thank you.

Well TV deals last many years. The current national one is over a decade long. So if a given year draws in a high viewership, the network cashes in, but if the 9 years after are a flop, then the next TV deal will be significantly worth less and therefore less revenue for the league

[Ashasx]

Make minor penalties last a full 2 minutes regardless of whether the team scores.
No longer allow teams to ice the puck on the penalty kill.
Call penalties (hooking, holding, slashing, etc.) as they are read in the rule book.

Do these three things and I guarantee the game opens up more. Special teams become even more important, so teams will avoid the clutch and grab in fear of being penalized. Maybe the top powerplay team in the league operates at ~35% instead of ~25%.

[jayswin]

Make minor penalties last a full 2 minutes regardless of whether the team scores.
No longer allow teams to ice the puck on the penalty kill.
Call penalties (hooking, holding, slashing, etc.) as they are read in the rule book.

Do these three things and I guarantee the game opens up more. Special teams become even more important, so teams will avoid the clutch and grab in fear of being penalized. Maybe the top powerplay team in the league operates at ~35% instead of ~25%.

Special teams have already been maximized in the past to "create" more excitement and it didn't work that well. (first starting in 2005 after the lock out).

The trade off of more goals and power play excitement was no flow in the games and just constant annoyance with silly calls everywhere that stopped play. Aiming at special teams to improve the excitement is looking for a fake fix to hockey. it has been in the past and will be in the future.

You need to improve the actual even strength game, if you're looking to improve.

[Ashasx]

Special teams have already been maximized in the past to "create" more excitement and it didn't work that well. (first starting in 2005 after the lock out).

The trade off of more goals and power play excitement was no flow in the games and just constant annoyance with silly calls everywhere that stopped play. Aiming at special teams to improve the excitement is looking for a fake fix to hockey. it has been in the past and will be in the future.

You need to improve the actual even strength game, if you're looking to improve.

Improving the 5 on 5 game is the exact reason why I listed those 3 things. The idea is to make penalties so costly that teams will avoid the clutch and grab game that is neutering the sport.

Ideally this would mean less powerplays per game than what we get right now, and the game opens up even strength.

[MarkGio]

Make minor penalties last a full 2 minutes regardless of whether the team scores.
No longer allow teams to ice the puck on the penalty kill.
Call penalties (hooking, holding, slashing, etc.) as they are read in the rule book.

Do these three things and I guarantee the game opens up more. Special teams become even more important, so teams will avoid the clutch and grab in fear of being penalized. Maybe the top powerplay team in the league operates at ~35% instead of ~25%.

I fully agree it's the clutching and grabbing. And hopefully they address the goalie issues. But I'm not sure how much of an effect full penalties will do. A given Pk is probably around 80% effective already (I'm not sure what the real numbers are at the top of my head) so for a team potting 250 goals, only like 50 goals. The bulk of scoring has to be tackled at the even strength level IMO, but like you said, would be addressed by clearing up the clutch and grabs and opening things up

[jayswin]

Improving the 5 on 5 game is the exact reason why I listed those 3 things. The idea is to make penalties so costly that teams will avoid the clutch and grab game that is neutering the sport.

Ideally this would mean less powerplays per game than what we get right now, and the game opens up even strength.

Okay, but you realize your post could be read directly from NHL talking points coming out of the '05 lock out though, right? Like......directly. I'm sure that exact quote could actually be dug up by one or more league representatives, lol.

Of course the goal would be for it to open up the game because penalties are so costly, but we have a living, breathing example of this and the result was just a whole bunch of chincy calls with the teams not really letting up that much as long as both teams were getting nailed, which eventually led to so much crying by fans and media that they were forced to tone it down.

[Ashasx]

I think league entertainment peaked in 08/09, and officials stopped calling penalties correctly.

So, a lot of changes coming out of the lockout did a lot of good. The NHL just stopped following them.

[calgaryblood]

Ticket prices are insane for what you get at an NHL game. Add to that a lot of teams are playing boring styles of hockey and it doesn't make for a good experience.

I've been to two games so far this season. The Buffalo win felt like a loss even though we won. Boring hockey where both teams sucked. Does that make me, a pretty die hard fan want to go back? Heck no. Can't imagine the casual fan.

And I paid less than half the face value. Would rather watch at home.

[Erick Estrada]

Poor example using the NBA and actually a case study in how maybe parity isn't the great fix that leagues have been looking to achieve. The NBA's popularity is soaring right now. A few years ago they were actually in danger of being unseated by the NHL in the four major sports.

If anything I'm now starting to wonder if the extra revenue from teams that are slightly out of the playoffs, but not actually going to make it isn't all that much more than when teams are really out of it. And maybe the extra revenue from having elite teams that fans come out in other cities to see and tune it on TV to see more than make up for the missed revenue in lack of parody.

Soaring where? In Ontario maybe because the Raptors are decent? According to ESPN the attendance figures the NBA is very similar to the NHL and like the NHL those announced attendance figures are nowhere near butts in seats.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct

The NFL is down as well and it's simply a sign of the times with lots of competition for the dollar as well with so much TV coverage of sports a lot of people choose to watch on their couch for free as opposed to spending hundreds on a couple of seats for a regular season game. IMO Flames fans are down right now because the team's in the dumps and the city is in a recession. If the Flames were on top of the league right now we wouldn't be talking about how crappy the hockey is.

[getbak]

Attendance is always lower during the first half of the season. Once the NFL season ends, the NHL numbers go up. That happens every year.

Even still, almost half the league is at 100% or more. 21 teams are over 95%. 22 are over 90%. 26 are over 80%. Only Carolina is under 70%.


Despite one poster saying that they're "falling fast", they actually aren't. In some cities, it's down. In others, it's up. In most cities, it's about the same.


When this thread was started, 14 teams were averaging at least 18,000 a night. Now, that number is 17.

In 2011-12, 5 teams averaged below 15,000. This year, 5 teams are averaging below 15,000. Only the Islanders and Coyotes were below 15,000 both seasons.

[jayswin]

Soaring where? In Ontario maybe because the Raptors are decent? According to ESPN the attendance figures the NBA is very similar to the NHL and like the NHL those announced attendance figures are nowhere near butts in seats.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct

The NFL is down as well and it's simply a sign of the times with lots of competition for the dollar as well with so much TV coverage of sports a lot of people choose to watch on their couch for free as opposed to spending hundreds on a couple of seats for a regular season game. IMO Flames fans are down right now because the team's in the dumps and the city is in a recession. If the Flames were on top of the league right now we wouldn't be talking about how crappy the hockey is.

I'll have to dig it up ErickEstrada, but they were referring to TV viewership, it's apparently booming.

[corporatejay]

difference between the NBA and hockey is that the sport is almost a second thought. Merchandise (shoes, shirts, athletic gear) could almost sustain the league alone. There are probably 50 players or more who could play for free and still make 10 million plus in revenue.

[MarkGio]

Ticket prices are insane for what you get at an NHL game. Add to that a lot of teams are playing boring styles of hockey and it doesn't make for a good experience.

I've been to two games so far this season. The Buffalo win felt like a loss even though we won. Boring hockey where both teams sucked. Does that make me, a pretty die hard fan want to go back? Heck no. Can't imagine the casual fan.

And I paid less than half the face value. Would rather watch at home.

Too true. I actually prefer the experience at home. No long lines to use the bathroom. Good priced beer and snacks. Play a little NHL 17 during the intermissions, rewind a play or check the forums to see what other people see.

Maybe I'm just an introvert, but between trying to find parking and overpaying for a drink, I don't care for it. Plus I like the commentary on TV because I don't memorize player's numbers.

[curves2000]

I don't know about the other fans on this forum but I am really starting to notice changes in my personal behavior with regards to the Flames.

Born and bred Calgarian and have always been a massive supporter of the team both in terms of tickets, merchandise and concession, apparel etc.

With the way the season has started, I have been very blah to spending actual cash on this team because the entertainment value just hasn't been worth it. I use to park and get 2 beers for $20, now my parking spot at a parkade is $15. A few friends have invited me to a few games where I have decided not to go and I have found myself declining. Since I am getting the "free" ticket I usually end up buying the booze, parking and dinner so there goes $200 on a Tuesday to see a spanking of the hometown team.

The cost of attending the games is going higher and higher and the merchandise I buy is getting more expensive. I will admit I am a jersey snob and only buy authentic on ice gear, well last I checked it was $325+ I believe $90-100 for lettering from Flames Fanattic.

There seems to be a little bit of a shift in terms of spending for both regular fans and corporations and their contributions. Teams in Canada might find they need to start some promos here for a lot of things since the Cup drought has left an entire generation of Canadian fans without much to cheer for other than losing the last few games for high draft picks and the hope that all these "young guys" start to show some growth. Long ways away from any sort of Canadian powerhouse teams here.

[The Fonz]

Something that would improve the on-ice product miles, without changing a single rule, would be if someone could manufacture a puck that did not bounce/flip/roll. The game has no flow when passes keep getting bobbled, and the puck bounces away while a guy is handling it.

Engineers - please make a puck that stays flat to the ice.

[nfotiu]

Something that would improve the on-ice product miles, without changing a single rule, would be if someone could manufacture a puck that did not bounce/flip/roll. The game has no flow when passes keep getting bobbled, and the puck bounces away while a guy is handling it.

Engineers - please make a puck that stays flat to the ice.

That's just a factor of bad ice.

The best way to fix the game would be to get rid of a point system that encourages teams to play for ties, and to follow up those ties with the most contrived, gimmicky system of tie breaking and point allocation possible.

[savemedrzaius]

Why are the Islanders so low? Is their new arena in a really bad location?

[chockfullofgoodness]

Too true. I actually prefer the experience at home. No long lines to use the bathroom. Good priced beer and snacks. Play a little NHL 17 during the intermissions, rewind a play or check the forums to see what other people see.

Maybe I'm just an introvert, but between trying to find parking and overpaying for a drink, I don't care for it. Plus I like the commentary on TV because I don't memorize player's numbers.

I agree 100 percent. Even if tickets were 5 dollars, I would prefer to watch at home. No traffic or blizzards to deal with in the dead of winter. Plus I can have a few beers because I don't have to drive. Watching at home is fantastic.

[getbak]

Why are the Islanders so low? Is their new arena in a really bad location?
It's the combination of playing in an arena that was designed for basketball, which has some awful sightlines for hockey and moving into an arena that is not convenient to get to for many people in their traditional fan base.

The Barclays Center only holds about 15,000 for hockey, and a significant percentage of those have at least a partially obstructed view of the ice. There's probably less than 13,000 seats in the building with a decent view. So, keeping that in mind, they're not doing too badly.

Long term, it's unacceptable, and they're already trying to find a location for a new arena. There have been rumours that they've had talks with the Mets to build something in the Citi Field parking lot where Shea Stadium used to stand. There's also the possibility of building something near the Belmont Park horse racing track, which is much closer to the old Coliseum than the Barclays Center.

[Mr.Coffee]

I have always been a lifelong diehard fan. The current product is boring as #### though.

I'll still watch it, because it's the only thing worth doing in the dead of winter, but I think you could forgive Americans who have 2,3 or 4 sports teams in their towns.

I think everyone else has summed up the combination of what appears to be falling interest this year (nothing a playoff birth can't fix).

Rising prices
TV quality and availability
Boring game
Lack of physicality for some fans
Lack of success for Canadian teams
Poor economic environment in Canada / Calgary

[memphusk]

I think the league needs to fix the reffing, for one. I'm sick of humans subjectively flip flopping, missing calls, or trying to manage the game. With today's technology where a surveillance system in Vegas can tell if a player is cheating, you think they can make a fair system in every arena.

Reffing is terrible majority of the time yes. I find that over policing the game has taken so much out of it. I used to watch as much hockey as I could because it was hard hitting, blood and sweat. Now it seems to be all tears and diving. I really don't enjoy watching guys cry to the refs for every little non call. Watching Gaudreau constantly bitch gets old. I guess everybody making big money with guaranteed contracts doesn't help anything either.

[memphusk]

That's just a factor of bad ice.

The best way to fix the game would be to get rid of a point system that encourages teams to play for ties, and to follow up those ties with the most contrived, gimmicky system of tie breaking and point allocation possible.

Agreed. Stop rewarding losing. I hate this ####ty point system.

[curves2000]

Something that would improve the on-ice product miles, without changing a single rule, would be if someone could manufacture a puck that did not bounce/flip/roll. The game has no flow when passes keep getting bobbled, and the puck bounces away while a guy is handling it.

Engineers - please make a puck that stays flat to the ice.


This is an interesting and very valid point you bring up. I just finished reading Gordie Howes book and he went through some noticeable factors in today's game.

He made a point to emphasise that with many young players today playing hockey almost year round, most of the players today don't or haven't in the past, played much hockey with tennis balls and other ball type "pucks" He was adamant that playing "ball" hockey for years helps hockey players develop softer hands and better puck control just due to the nature of the low weight.

Ice quality today I suspect is better than it has been in NHL history due to the technology, newer rinks, air conditioning and uniform standards. There is also the commercial breaks where the ice crews sweep the snow off which is something that never occurred in the past. Given the higher quality of the ice, the higher quality sticks and the level of talent of today's players, its still interesting how often "stars" and "elite" players bobble the puck. I suspect some of it may be due to the speed of the game but still interesting to think about Mr. Howes theory.

[Coach]

I think expanding the width of the rink would do wonders for the game. Not to Olympic size, but somewhere in-between.

[Philly06Cup]

The other option would be to go to 4-for-4. Bunch of 3rd / 4th liners will lose jobs, so the NHLPA would hate it, but goshdarn I think it would work.

[zukes]

Something that would improve the on-ice product miles, without changing a single rule, would be if someone could manufacture a puck that did not bounce/flip/roll. The game has no flow when passes keep getting bobbled, and the puck bounces away while a guy is handling it.

Engineers - please make a puck that stays flat to the ice.

This is a good idea. I don;t know if it's global warming, or the amount the arenas are used, but the ice everywhere is terrible. So many scoring chances and passes are wasted because of the puck just bouncing over a stick.

It's funny, when you play NHL17, they added this in this year and while realistic, it really takes the fun factor out. That is what has happened in real life too.

[zukes]

I think expanding the width of the rink would do wonders for the game. Not to Olympic size, but somewhere in-between.

Based on the international hockey played on Olympic surfaces, this actually makes playing defense easier. I'm not sure if it's the slightly extra time defenses have to get back and defend if a player is going out wide, or just that they don;t even bother trying to cover the wide ice and just collapse, but it doesn't seem to work.

I like the idea of 4 on 4, but unless they expand by enough teams to virtually guarantee no job loss, this won't happen.

So, the solution is to get the goalies back into 80's goalie gear, or failing that, slightly smaller equipment and make the nets bigger. Make it so guys with good shots, like Wendel Clark and Mark Messier back in the day, can skate down the wing and actually have room to fire a laser over the goalies shoulder or into a corner of the net that they can actually see.

[The Fonz]

or the amount the arenas are used, but the ice everywhere is terrible. So many scoring chances and passes are wasted because of the puck just bouncing over a stick.


I think it has a lot to do with the fact that NHL arenas are nearly room temperature. It's extremely difficult (impossible?) to have high quality ice, while also warm enough for Jimbo and his kids to attend the game wearing only t-shirts.

[MarkGio]

I have always been a lifelong diehard fan. The current product is boring as #### though.

I'll still watch it, because it's the only thing worth doing in the dead of winter, but I think you could forgive Americans who have 2,3 or 4 sports teams in their towns.

I think everyone else has summed up the combination of what appears to be falling interest this year (nothing a playoff birth can't fix).

Rising prices
TV quality and availability
Boring game
Lack of physicality for some fans
Lack of success for Canadian teams
Poor economic environment in Canada / Calgary

Honestly, I would watch way less hockey if it took place on the summer.