General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[Jordan!]

7 year commitment to Phoenix, money will not be an issue.

from @rocandmanuch

The interested buy is a former West coast NHL exec and has multiple investors.

[landshark]

from who?

[sureLoss]

The interested buy is a former West coast NHL exec and has multiple investors.

Obviously Darryl Sutter has mortgaged his ranch to buy the Coyotes.

[dissentowner]

I give it 3 months max before this one falls through.

[dustyanddaflames]

Obviously Darryl Sutter has mortgaged his ranch to buy the Coyotes.

Owning a ranch myself, this is probably the case. Cattle prices are high - good time to buy an NHL franchise. The thought has crossed my mind a few times. :bag:

[Canada 02]

The interested buy is a former West coast NHL exec and has multiple investors.the Gund brothers? Bruce McNall?

[arloiginla]

7 year commitment to Phoenix, money will not be an issue.

from @rocandmanuch

The interested buy is a former West coast NHL exec and has multiple investors.

Do you ever get tired of getting your hopes raised and then crushed?

[Jordan!]

Perhaps Tom Gaglardi?

[Jordan!]

Do you ever get tired of getting your hopes raised and then crushed?

No hopes here, reporting news out of Phoenix.

[Dogbert]

If some guy from the West Coast has $175 million to flush down the toilet now - and another $300-odd million to do likewise with over the next seven years - then more power to him.

The Phoenix Coyotes are a moribund franchise and will continue to be as long as the team is in Glendale. Doesn't matter how rich the owner is, doesn't matter which players choose to sign there - nobody cares, has ever cared, or will ever care about the Coyotes in Phoenix. The franchise quite simply should never have been allowed to move there, and the fact that it did speaks volumes about the so-called "due diligence" that the NHL supposedly does when looking to admit new owners and locales.

[Ashasx]

Who would offer to lose money every year on a 7 year commitment?

[albertGQ]

Wayne Gretzky!

[TorqueDog]

This is great news - and when does Ashton Kutcher poke his head into the Glendale city council's chambers and yell "YOU JUST GOT PUNK'D"?

[Poe969]

Owning a ranch myself, this is probably the case. Cattle prices are high - good time to buy an NHL franchise. The thought has crossed my mind a few times. :bag:


Hold out for a better team.... This reminds me of that simpsons episode where Homer became the mayor of new springfield and was offered the arizona cardinals.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Is he paying in Monopoly money?

[getbak]

The Coyotes have had more "tomorrows" than Annie.

[Poe969]

I just heard that after they announce the purchase of the team they'll be unvailing their new logo

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xklD-4eth0o/TZFySPEKo1I/AAAAAAAABFk/He_2Mw_d4-g/s1600/Wile-E-Coyote.jpg

[Jordan!]

The Coyotes have had more "tomorrows" than Annie.

It's actually monday, to the NHL. We may have an owner here as soon as Tuesday..

Doubt it

[Vulcan]

I like this, it never gets old reading about this soap opera.

[Jordan!]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/08/11/new-ownership-bid-being-formulated-for.html?ana=twt

hmmmm, includes some Bond money. bleh

[SuperMatt18]

Sounds like Brian Burke to me, former West Coast NHL executive who still has an active position in the NHL.

[the2bears]

Is he paying in Monopoly money?

I thought the NHL was a cartel?

[Hilch]

Sounds like Brian Burke to me, former West Coast NHL executive who still has an active position in the NHL.

Can you own one team and GM another?

[Vulcan]

A 7 year commitment seems a little excessive. Four or five years should be good enough. If the attendance doesn't respond in 5 years with a good ownership team, it never will.

Like someone else said, the Gaglardi's sound like they could be the party. They were interested in the Stars and are probably still smarting from losing out on the Canucks, where they got swindled. Maybe Burke is involved with them too.

[NHLWinnipeg]

With the team in Glendale, I don't believe PHX is a viable NHL market. Have been to games down there and you can get a ticket for next to nothing and sit anywhere. The Coyotes lose $20 to $40MM a year and the arena is in the wrong location. Hardly anyone in the city I talked to could name a single player. The NHL is just not on the radar. It is a huge turn-around project to say the least. Without massive tax payer subsidies or an out clause for relocation, I doubt anyone would be willing to take the risk from a purely business standpoint.

[NHLWinnipeg]

Sounds like Brian Burke to me, former West Coast NHL executive who still has an active position in the NHL.

I doubt it. He'd have to give up his position with the Leafs if he was involved I'd gather.

[troutman]

A $40 million to $50 million contribution by Glendale towards the purchase could avoid a lawsuit promised by the Goldwater Institute (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/az/phoenix/goldwater_institute/2545914/) watchdog group.

Why? How?

[Vulcan]

A $40 million to $50 million contribution by Glendale towards the purchase could avoid a lawsuit promised by the Goldwater Institute (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/az/phoenix/goldwater_institute/2545914/) watchdog group.

Why? How?

Less money than before?

[TorqueDog]

Less money than before?The issue wasn't the amount of money, it was the source of the money (ie: public funds).

[Vulcan]

The issue wasn't the amount of money, it was the source of the money (ie: public funds).

They seem to be okay with the annual $25M Glendale donates to the NHL.

[TorqueDog]

They seem to be okay with the annual $25M Glendale donates to the NHL.They had a reason for that, but it escapes me what it was.

[topfiverecords]

Goldwater has issues with the $25million, the Bonds, the sale of the parking rights (that the city might already own), and the arena management contract. They have stated that until a sale is officially in place they won't be taking the $25M to court as they wish to take issue with everything concerned in the deal at once.

[Otto29]

Sounds like Brian Burke to me, former West Coast NHL executive who still has an active position in the NHL.

It says a minority owner of another NHL franchise not an active member of management

[VladtheImpaler]

Why would Darryl need to mortgage his ranch? If I was looking to buy this team, I would start by asking, "So, how much are you going to pay me to take this over?"

[flamesaresmokin]

BS - No sane businessman would commit to 7 years in phoenix. The team is doing well on the ice and its still a losing situation by a long shot. I really wish I could push a button and make this all go away.

[Northendzone]

all i know is that i had monday in the "when is the yotes mess going to be cleared up" pool - i am looking forward to collecting the winnings from the other pool particpants.

[Jordan!]

Apparently all negotiations go to the NHL first.. not Glendale this time around.

[jtfrogger]

Did Brett Wilson eventually get part of the Predators? If so, I could see him being behind this.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Yeah he owns some of it.

[Mccree]

Did Brett Wilson eventually get part of the Predators? If so, I could see him being behind this.

First name that came to me.

[topfiverecords]

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2011/7/14/predators_billionaire_partner_could_be_on_board_by _september

Finally, it seems, the NHL is close to approving another Predators investor.

At Wednesday's Skate of the Union event at Bridgestone Arena, team chairman Tom Cigarran said he expects the league to give the final approvals to the investment of Canadian billionaire entrepreneur W. Brett Wilson by September.

Wilson made his loonies as an investment banker funding oil and gas exploration before branching off to form Canoe Investments, a private-equity firm reportedly worth $1.5 billion. He co-owns — along with partial Predators owner David Freeman — a minor-league baseball team and an English soccer team and has been seeking approval as a member of Nashville's ownership group for nearly three years.

[PeteMoss]

I always get my sports scoops from Roc and Manuch...

[SuperMatt18]

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2011/7/14/predators_billionaire_partner_could_be_on_board_by _september

How did it take a Billionaire Canadian, who has other investments with the current Nashville owner, three years to get approved. Especially considering it is not a majority stake in the team.

Sometimes I really don't understand the NHL or the BOG's

Makes you wonder if there are any other billionaire out there, not including Jim Basille, who are waiting for their investment to be approved.

[OzSome]

Soap opera in Phoenix continues..

[Itse]

How did it take a Billionaire Canadian, who has other investments with the current Nashville owner, three years to get approved. Especially considering it is not a majority stake in the team.

Sometimes I really don't understand the NHL or the BOG's


Propably because they want (were suspected of wanting) to move the team to Canada, and that's not what the NHL wants.

I would't be surprised if the seven year commitment to Phoenix was put out there to drive away anyone with those ideas, but the crazy Canadians decided that what the heck, what's seven more years at this point...

[Resolute 14]

Goldwater has issues with the $25million, the Bonds, the sale of the parking rights (that the city might already own), and the arena management contract. They have stated that until a sale is officially in place they won't be taking the $25M to court as they wish to take issue with everything concerned in the deal at once.

Goldwater is so full of ####. What, exactly, do they expect to accomplish by allowing the city to honour it's obligation to the NHL, then two years later, take issue? They aren't getting the money back.

[Northendzone]

Still a few hours left in Monday - I think I will use my pool winnings to buy a new r11 driver and irons......

[PegCityFlamesFan]

What??? No Deal?? I'm shocked.

[Jordan!]

Roc says Wednesday.. surrrrprise!!

[saskflames69]

That guy's from Saskatchewan, hmm... Saskatoon Predators anyone?

[Resolute 14]

Only if the Blades choose to rename their WHL team.

[Northendzone]

What??? No Deal?? I'm shocked.

what tha......., this is redonkulous.........

[DownhillGoat]

That guy's from Saskatchewan, hmm... Saskatoon Predators anyone?
I'm sure he'd rather make money than lose it.

[Northendzone]

I'm sure he'd rather make money than lose it.

if whomever buys this teams sinks some money into marketing it, it will be a gold mine/license to print money; however the 4 previous owners did not market the team, thus it has lost $300 gabillion dollars.

Never ceases to amaze me how someone can spend a couple of 100 million to buy something, then forget to market it - idiots........

Marketing this team is crucial to making money......maybe one of those Amway guys should buy the team.

[DownhillGoat]

if whomever buys this teams sinks some money into marketing it, it will be a gold mine/license to print money;
My post was directed at the idea of a team in Saskatchewan, as saskflames96 was alluding to.

No amount of marketing will make a team viable in Saskatoon.

[Stay Golden]

Hollywood should make this on going PHX bs into a movie and call it
The Money Pit starring Tom Hanks...

[Barnes]

Hollywood should make this on going PHX bs into a movie and call it
The Money Pit starring Tom Hanks...

You should write jokes for Gallagher.

[the2bears]

That guy's from Saskatchewan, hmm... Saskatoon Predators anyone?

I remember one time when the talk was all about the "Saskatoon Blues".

[transplant99]

I remember one time when the talk was all about the "Saskatoon Blues".


Bill Hunter was a madman. He literally believed he could make a team work in the 'toon. Although he did get commitments for an arena and season tickets the BoG said no way and assumed the team themselves i believe is how the story went.

[Resolute 14]

Yup. Even in 1983, the NHL was too big for Saskatoon. When the BOG rejected the sale and transfer, Ralco Purina (Blues owners) sued the NHL, who countersued. Ralco then walked away from the team, and the Blues actually boycotted the entire 1983 draft. They forfeited every pick they had.

[Frequitude]

Really happy for you Bouw. Eff the haters. Hopefully the cocky dbag Jets fans leave you alone now that they have their little toy.

[Vulcan]

If Brett Wilson doesn't buy them maybe Glendale will look for more investors on the Dragon's Den. I'd watch that.

[getbak]

If Brett Wilson doesn't buy them maybe Glendale will look for more investors on the Dragon's Den. I'd watch that.
"I'm out."

"You don't have a viable business strategy. I'm out."

"Who's going to buy hockey in the desert? I'm out too."

[TorqueDog]

Really happy for you Bouw. Eff the haters. Hopefully the cocky dbag Jets fans leave you alone now that they have their little toy.It's not really about that and really never has been. Putting it into the most simplistic of terms, a location with willing ownership is better than a location without. The only difference between Atlanta and Phoenix is that the city of Atlanta was not married to the team for any reason (nor was it willing to be) and Glendale is by way of the arena lease (and even the mayor of Glendale has mentioned there is investigation into the possibility of chasing a minor-league franchise as a tenant).

The Coyotes have been a playoff team the past two seasons, so it's no longer about the on-ice product. No one wants to own a team there (with their own money) and only a fraction of a fraction of the population gives a crap. Wealthy folks don't want to buy a franchise that is a poor draw and fans don't want to buy season tickets to a franchise without stable ownership that will keep the team there (hello, Catch-22!).

Only positive out of this whole thing is that the NHL has established through the courts that it reserves the right to dictate where its franchises are located (courtesy of the Balsillie factor). But I have a hard time believing the BoG wants to own this team for another year and an equally hard time believing the CoG is going to spend an annual $25 million in perpetuity until someone buys the damn team.

I honestly believe that this is the last season in the desert unless the ownership situation gets squared away before end of the next season.

[DownhillGoat]

If Brett Wilson doesn't buy them maybe Glendale will look for more investors on the Dragon's Den. I'd watch that.
You valued your hockey team at 300 million and you don't have any ticket sales. I want to get behind the business but you're too greedy. Your valuation is out to lunch. I'm out.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

I can only imagine what the "Merchant of Truth" Kevin O'leary would say to Scruggs/Bettman's sales pitch.

[topfiverecords]

If Brett Wilson doesn't buy them maybe Glendale will look for more investors on the Dragon's Den. I'd watch that.

I don't understand the concept, so I'm out.

[Jordan!]

A bid was made today and should have Bettman's blessings by Friday with a check being cut Monday.. FWIW @rocandmanuch

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/08/17/phoenix-coyotes-sale-progress-coming.html

http://otonly.com/x0811/image.png

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Not one person/source/mainstream media has even hinted at this story, maybe they have become as tired of this saga as the rest of us.

[landshark]

Certainly Winnipeg news media was a driving force BEFORE they got a team. Don't think they care anymore...

[Vulcan]

A bid was made today and should have Bettman's blessings by Friday with a check being cut Monday.. FWIW @rocandmanuch

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/08/17/phoenix-coyotes-sale-progress-coming.html



Thanks for adding the link but I think you are a little optimistic.

A Phoenix sports radio show reported Wednesday that there would be substantial movement next week regarding a new ownership group looking to buy the Phoenix Coyotes (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/az/glendale/phoenix_coyotes_hockey_club/2494658/)http://assets.bizjournals.com/lib/img/icon_follow_false.png (http://www.bizjournals.com/#) hockey team and keep the team in Arizona at least for several years.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Cheque cut Monday? They'd still need to negotiate a lease agreement. That's not a slam dunk as history has taught us.

[Jordan!]

Thanks for adding the link but I think you are a little optimistic.

I thought the rage face pic I posted showed my general lack of optimism.. I'm just posting news from PHX at this point.

Call me when it's on paper

[Vulcan]

I thought the rage face pic I posted showed my general lack of optimism.. I'm just posting news from PHX at this point.

Call me when it's on paper

I thought it was more of a contemplating smug face, but good luck with the situation anyways but with what's gone down, I can't believe there is much of a fan base left.

[tjinaz]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/08/18/former-sharks-ceo-leading-new-bid-to.html

Can't say he is not experienced especially in non traditional markets.

[TKB]

Just like an old farm dog thats on his last legs, take em out back behind the barn and shoot them. This situation is nothing short of a gong show.

[Jordan!]

Just like an old farm dog thats on his last legs, take em out back behind the barn and shoot them. This situation is nothing short of a gong show.

Haven't heard this one before..

anyways, Jamison is definitely the right kind of guy here and I have no problem with the 7 year out clause.

He knows the market well.

[tjinaz]

This may actually have a chance.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/08/19/20110819phoenix-coyotes-bidders-san-jose-sharks-ceo-brk.html

[Jordan!]

Ok so Glendale confirms there are no bonds.. only hang up is their acceptance of an out clause.. and they'd be idiotic to push this deal away by not accepting one.

[troutman]

Who is willing to lose $40 M X 7?

[kyuss275]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/08/18/former-sharks-ceo-leading-new-bid-to.html

Can't say he is not experienced especially in non traditional markets.

Is this guy nuts? Willing to stay for 7 years. He could lose $280 million by then. I could see someone wanting the Coyotes if they could opt out after a couple of years, but seven?

[Resolute 14]

While I doubt Phoenix will ever make money, $40 million in annual losses is probably a very low point given the circus that has followed the team. With stable ownership, those losses should become significantly less. But, I doubt they would shrink so much that this businessman could ever hope to make it back with a relocation after seven years.

[Mazrim]

Who is willing to lose $40 M X 7?
Maybe he's in one of those splurging moods and just wants to spend money?

[tjinaz]

And a couple of NBA teams before that.

Maybe he knows something we don't. Or realizes how very badly they have been run in the past.

Jameison's bio from the Sharks site.

After reading it I would venture he knows quite a bit about running a Hockey club and how professional sports work.

http://sharks.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=46543

[landshark]

Maybe as a LONGTERM move, it could work... What if losses are only $10M/year. How much could a team in Quebec earn over the next 10 years? Perhaps buying for $120M NOW and later selling (in a better economic environment AND a better location) for twice as much?

Maybe everyone wins - except Glendale

[troutman]

While I doubt Phoenix will ever make money, $40 million in annual losses is probably a very low point given the circus that has followed the team. With stable ownership, those losses should become significantly less. But, I doubt they would shrink so much that this businessman could ever hope to make it back with a relocation after seven years.

If the Coyotes aren't competitive, I don't think we have seen the low point yet. If the community knows that the team is likely to move in 7 years, who is going to get invested in the team? It could be a lame duck franchise, like the last days of the Expos.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Thank god I don't have to watch those terrible city council meetings again.

[tjinaz]

If the Coyotes aren't competitive, I don't think we have seen the low point yet. If the community knows that the team is likely to move in 7 years, who is going to get invested in the team? It could be a lame duck franchise, like the last days of the Expos. __________________

Key is they COULD move in 7 years and yes we have seen a low point. Prior to the last 2 years they didn't make the playoffs for 7. The reason there wasn't such an upswing in attendance during the playoff years was the ownership instability. They get an owner and a good team or even just an owner and things will pick up. Getting an owner with a clue and a marketing background combined with the GM and coach in place now and they can only go up.

[Jordan!]

If the Coyotes aren't competitive, I don't think we have seen the low point yet.

Games before the BK were filled pretty well after 6-7 years without a playoff appearance. At least 13,000 fans actually in the seats. After the BK, winning didn't matter. It was truly hard to get into going to games for people.

Ownership is the key factor here

[PegCityFlamesFan]

The way packages have sold for your home opener vs Winnipeg you'll have at least one legit sell out this year.

[troutman]

Games before the BK were filled pretty well after 6-7 years without a playoff appearance. At least 13,000 fans actually in the seats. After the BK, winning didn't matter. It was truly hard to get into going to games for people.

Ownership is the key factor here

Define "filled"? How many tickets were comped? How many tickets were $20? How many were there to see the visiting team?

[Jordan!]

Define "filled"? How many tickets were comped? How many tickets were $20? How many were there to see the visiting team?

Let me check coyotesprebkseatdata.xlsx.. brb

[troutman]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/10764/sharks-owner-shows-interest-in-coyotes

Although there has been much speculation in recent weeks about potential owners for the Phoenix Coyotes (http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-coyotes), ESPN.com can confirm that former San Jose Sharks (http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/_/name/sj/san-jose-sharks) president and part owner Greg Jamison has expressed interest in the beleaguered team.

However, reports that Jamison is poised to make an offer to buy the team from the NHL and work out a lease agreement with the City of Glendale are inaccurate, a source told ESPN.com Friday.

Jamison stepped away from his role as president and CEO of the Sharks almost a year ago, but he is still listed on the team's website as part of the ownership group. He would have to sever ties with the Sharks if he was to become owner of the Coyotes.

Jamison does seem to be the right fit for the challenge.

[valo403]

Define "filled"? How many tickets were comped? How many tickets were $20? How many were there to see the visiting team?

Why exactly does this matter? If a team can average an acceptable level of attendance it doesn't matter one bit whether the fans are there to see the home team or the away team. Phoenix would be well served to market itself as a hockey vacation destination.

[Resolute 14]

Define "filled"? How many tickets were comped? How many tickets were $20? How many were there to see the visiting team?

You could ask the same of the Flames circa 2002.

[Jordan!]

He will be here Monday and will be meeting with Gary Bettman w/ a check

[TorqueDog]

Pass the crack-pipe, please.

[Jordan!]

Pass the crack-pipe, please.

Good luck being a Flames/Jets fan.. doesn't work.

Choose one.

[FlamesAddiction]

Why exactly does this matter? If a team can average an acceptable level of attendance it doesn't matter one bit whether the fans are there to see the home team or the away team. Phoenix would be well served to market itself as a hockey vacation destination.

It would matter for season ticket sales and teams prefer to have the money upfront to pay for expenses instead of relying on walk-up sales.

Unless maybe some companies bought the tickets first and then resold them to tourists. Could be a risky venture though.

[Chester]

Games before the BK were filled pretty well after 6-7 years without a playoff appearance. At least 13,000 fans actually in the seats. After the BK, winning didn't matter. It was truly hard to get into going to games for people.

Ownership is the key factor here


From afar I would think that the economic meltdown has to be a strong factor in the inability to find a new owner. The meltdown has affected Arizona as much or more than any other region in the world. Many mortgages are still under-water and there is no real respite in sight. It is hard for property values to increase when so many are in foreclosure or outright abandoned. It must be hard for a middle-class family to prioritize sports tickets when their house value keeps dropping and the economic future is so uncertain. Yes, it would be easier for them to pony-up if they believed in ownership, but at some point the local economic situation must improve as well.

[Beerfest]

Good luck being a Flames/Jets fan.. doesn't work.

Choose one.

Coming from the guy who said he was a Flames fan but then decided to bandwagon the Coyotes...

[TorqueDog]

Good luck being a Flames/Jets fan.. doesn't work.

Choose one.Pot, meet kettle.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Not sure how being a Flames and Jets fan doesn't work but a Coyotes Flames fan does...... It's not like they're the Canucks.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

He will be here Monday and will be meeting with Gary Bettman w/ a check

Doubt it'll be that easy of a process. Pretty sure this will take quite awhile to finalize (if it ever does).

[TorqueDog]

I don't think purchases that large are generally made by cheque, either.

[spetch]

Not sure how being a Flames and Jets fan doesn't work but a Coyotes Flames fan does...... It's not like they're the Canucks.


If they move into the Flames division by law you cannot cheer for both the Flames and Jets. Good thing the NHL gave everyone a year to decide which wagon is better.

[jayswin]

Not sure how being a Flames and Jets fan doesn't work but a Coyotes Flames fan does...... It's not like they're the Canucks.

He's not a Coyotes/Flames fan, he's a former Flames fan who switched teams.

Earlier this spring he was openly cheering for the Flames to lose, and even made those stupid troll face posts when the Flames were being eliminated from the playoffs.

[Jordan!]

Coming from the guy who said he was a Flames fan but then decided to bandwagon the Coyotes...

It may help you to know my history..

I became a Coyotes fan before a Flames fan even though I grew up in Calgary. I jumped on board with The Flames for the Flames Forever campaign in 2000.

I've watched every single Coyotes game since Shaw cable offered Center Ice. How am I a bandwagoner?

Let me guess, you became a Flames fan in 04?

[Jordan!]

Not sure how being a Flames and Jets fan doesn't work but a Coyotes Flames fan does...... It's not like they're the Canucks.

I'm not a Flames fan.. I just like this board and the thoughts presented here. In fact if the Coyotes move I will be a Sharks fan due to location as I may relocate to Northern California in the not so distant future. Tried to be a dual fan and it just doesn't work at all

[Poe969]

I'm not a Flames fan.. I just like this board and the thoughts presented here. In fact if the Coyotes move I will be a Sharks fan due to location as I may relocate to Northern California in the not so distant future. Tried to be a dual fan and it just doesn't work at all


watch out for all the fish bones in the spring, I hear they make you choke.

[troutman]

Why exactly does this matter? If a team can average an acceptable level of attendance it doesn't matter one bit whether the fans are there to see the home team or the away team. Phoenix would be well served to market itself as a hockey vacation destination.

Fans of visiting teams don't watch local Coyote broadcasts, buy Coyote merchandise etc. "13,000" fans in the arena misrepresents how large the Coyote audience truly is. Sure, it is good to have people in the building, but a marketing plan that is focused on the fans of visiting teams is not long for this world.

[Daradon]

So I'm assuming nothing happened with this? Any new news on said purchase?

[TorqueDog]

So I'm assuming nothing happened with this?Don't tell me this comes as a shock to anyone.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

It may help you to know my history..

I became a Coyotes fan before a Flames fan even though I grew up in Calgary. I jumped on board with The Flames for the Flames Forever campaign in 2000.

I've watched every single Coyotes game since Shaw cable offered Center Ice. How am I a bandwagoner?

Let me guess, you became a Flames fan in 04?

Why would anyone choose to be a Coyotes fan??

[Joborule]

Why would anyone choose to be a Coyotes fan??

Sick logo yo!

http://www.sportslogos.net/images/logos/1/23/full/nlray22u33hhmvm2oyfg.gif

[MrMastodonFarm]

After all these years, you figure Jordon would mature a bit, but he continually gets his foot stuck in his mouth.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Sick logo yo!

http://www.sportslogos.net/images/logos/1/23/full/nlray22u33hhmvm2oyfg.gif

Hard to argue with that!

http://i54.tinypic.com/51r6v8.png

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I think I figured it out, actually...

http://i55.tinypic.com/hs83du.jpg

[Artie Fufkin]

The sooner this team gets out of the desert the better.

When will Bettman learn?

[Frequitude]

Let's go Coyotes, let's go.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

CP fundraiser to buy the Coyotes?

We establish a corporation, CP polls chooses the name. First 100 people to kick in 50 bucks get to join the ownership group. All money goes to legal and bureaucratic fees, and for a real cool official-looking backdrop poster for the press conference.

We agree to assume ownership of the team, in exhange for assuming all present and future liabilities.

We basically **** around with the team for a year. Demand that management make ridiculous but entertaining trades and signings. Make it a season goal to have the shortest first line in NHL history (we're coming for YOU Montreal). Re-sign Gretzky and demand that he play. Goalie. Ridiculous fan night offers ("Show your season ticket stubs, get to pick who BizNasty fights!")

Then go bankrupt.

You laugh, but what do you think Katz is doing?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

CP fundraiser to buy the Coyotes?

We establish a corporation, CP polls chooses the name. First 100 people to kick in 50 bucks get to join the ownership group. All money goes to legal and bureaucratic fees, and for a real cool official-looking backdrop poster for the press conference.

We agree to assume ownership of the team, in exhange for assuming all present and future liabilities.

We basically **** around with the team for a year. Demand that management make ridiculous but entertaining trades and signings. Make it a season goal to have the shortest first line in NHL history (we're coming for YOU Montreal). Re-sign Gretzky and demand that he play. Goalie. Ridiculous fan night offers ("Show your season ticket stubs, get to pick who BizNasty fights!")

Then go bankrupt.

You laugh, but what do you think Katz is doing?

[Jordan!]

Why would anyone choose to be a Coyotes fan??

1) Love Phoenix
2) The Kachina Style uni's really caught my attention.. still love them!
3) I went to a Coyotes/Avs playoff game in 2000

For what it's worth, Jamison/NHL/Glendale/Coyotes will meet this week

[Jordan!]

After all these years, you figure Jordon would mature a bit, but he continually gets his foot stuck in his mouth.

I think i've matured quite a bit actually.. glad to see you're still a bitter human though.

Some things/people don't change

[Poe969]

Thinking of submitting my bid for the yotes as well...
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/89895/89895,1206617510,2/stock-photo-pocket-change-11037673.jpg

anyone elese wanna help bring them back to Canada?

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Don't overpay

[Ryan Coke]

Here's hoping they stay. Really enjoy going to games down there, and actually quite a good atmosphere.

Definitely my second favorite team.

[Jordan!]

It's impossible to get truly optimistic but I am liking how things are being handled now.

Rather than the buyer working with Glendale, they are working directly with the NHL and the NHL will go to Glendale with the buyer (Which is happening this week)

I was hoping something would get done by camp but that's likely not going to happen.

[Resolute 14]

Thinking of submitting my bid for the yotes as well...
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/89895/89895,1206617510,2/stock-photo-pocket-change-11037673.jpg

anyone elese wanna help bring them back to Canada?

Good for you, man. I mean, most people would recognize that that joke has been made a million times, and stopped being funny a long time ago. But you, you have the courage to step up and say "you know what? I'm going to post a tired joke, one more time!"

[Poe969]

Good for you, man. I mean, most people would recognize that that joke has been made a million times, and stopped being funny a long time ago. But you, you have the courage to step up and say "you know what? I'm going to post a tired joke, one more time!"


Unlike you who's first to point out "that's been said, that's been said!!!"

I guess we all have our roles to play in this world.

[TorqueDog]

Oh snap!

[/Not the first guy to say "Oh snap!" when someone's been put in their place.]

[Resolute 14]

Aww, Poe made a friend. First time for everything!

[Daradon]

Thinking of submitting my bid for the yotes as well...
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/89895/89895,1206617510,2/stock-photo-pocket-change-11037673.jpg

anyone elese wanna help bring them back to Canada?

Any reason you're carrying around American change? You realize ours is worth more now, they probably won't mind the deal being done in 'monopoly money'. :)

[Jordan!]

WPG gets a team.. and this still happens?

Coyotes are Houston, KC or Seattle bound if we aren't sold this year.

The NHL isn't losing another U.S. market.

[Daradon]

WPG gets a team.. and this still happens?

Coyotes are Houston, KC or Seattle bound if we aren't sold this year.

The NHL isn't losing another U.S. market.

What happens? Do you mean the jokes about Phoenix?

As was mentioned last year, this has little or nothing to do with Winnipeg or 'Canadian vs. American'. It has to do with fans sick of the whole ongoing saga and worried about the strength of the league.

[Resolute 14]

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.

And even after Winnipeg got their team, that still holds true. Case in point, Steve MacFarlane's asinine article a couple weeks ago about about the supposed best markets available. (Even if it was in response to an even more asinine "study" about same.)

[tjinaz]

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.

And even after Winnipeg got their team, that still holds true. Case in point, Steve MacFarlane's asinine article a couple weeks ago about about the supposed best markets available. (Even if it was in response to an even more asinine "study" about same.) If it is not about nationalism explain all the Winnipeg posters that are STILL trolling every single Coyotes news article posted on the Arizona Republic. They got their team... why are they still there? Should make the first home game against Winnipeg interesting.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2011/08/31/20110831phoenix-coyotes-shane-doan-trade-reaction.html

[Resolute 14]

As I said, it is about inferiority complex. Winnipegers will never forgive Phoenix because the former owner of a Jets team sold out because of a great many factors, including lack of fan support. On the wider picture, many Canadians have built up so many delusions about how and why the Jets and Nordiques went south that there is no reasoning with them. The reality is that it is not about nationalism. Those "fans" try to dress it up with the flag because they figure that that justifies their pitiful behaviour.

We all know Phoenix is very likely a lost cause. Just let the people with money waste other people's money until the game is over, and move on.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

I don't know why anyone would care from Winnipeg, I for one am glad us getting a team doesn't rely on Gongdale anymore, that circus was too much for me.

[TorqueDog]

My personal viewpoint on this is the fact that this entire thing is a complete farce. The fact that it has carried on this long and the process has burned through this many interested parties says what everyone has been saying all along: the team just won't work in Glendale.
WPG gets a team.. and this still happens?Then stop posting about it if you don't like the reaction. God damn, you're a real sucker for punishment, aren't you?

[Resolute 14]

My personal viewpoint on this is the fact that this entire thing is a complete farce. The fact that it has carried on this long and the process has burned through this many interested parties says what everyone has been saying all along: the team just won't work in Glendale.

Oh, I doubt anybody on any side of this will disagree.

The farce, ultimately, lays at Glendale's feet. The NHL is mostly protected, and legally it would be impossible to argue that the league has not made a good faith effort to keep the team in Glendale (if the possibilities of lawsuits flying come into play as was first speculated when Balsillie made his play). The league keeps finding people willing to drop money, and Glendale keeps screwing it up somehow. That city is going to be left holding the bag, out $50 million and stuck with an empty arena. The franchise will move on, and Phoenix's NHL misadventure will be quickly forgotten.

It's an amusing story though. Hell, if you can make a movie about Moneyball, the script for the Coyotes saga should be amazing! ;)

[TorqueDog]

I want to see a South Park episode about the Coyotes saga.

[Thumper17]

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.


Dont speak for everyone, I dont care if the keep the team in the states. Just put it in a market where it'll sell.

Right now Quebec, Hartford, Seattle, Kansas City, Houston and Hamilton look like the best places to go, at least fan-base and travel wise, so put a team in their somewhere and in 5-10 years revist Phoenix, if it's not a ghost town by then.

[Northendzone]

Why would you revisit phx in 5 to 10? They have been around for 10+ yrs now with nothing but mixed results........

[Poe969]

Winnipeg has mixed results until they found out the jets were leaving. I agree that the team should move, I'd prefer it to come to Canada because I know a team would do well in Hamilton or Quebec but I'd be open to a team going somehwere like Hartford, Seatlle or KC because it might work there too.

Thing is, its not working in Phoenix and its bad for the league to have this hanging over its head.

[TorqueDog]

I'd love to see the return of the Hartford Whalers. That said - throughout all these relocation talks - it's the place I've heard mentioned the least, if at all. I'm not sure how much of an appetite there is to move a team back to Hartford.

My top three, in no particular order: Hamilton, Houston, Quebec City

[Daradon]

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.



Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.

But for me the ongoing saga of Phoenix just highlights deeper troubles in the league and the management of it. Which is sad because I really like some other things that have been done lately to bring attention to hockey and the NHL.

[valo403]

Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.

But for me the ongoing saga of Phoenix just highlights deeper troubles in the league and the management of it. Which is sad because I really like some other things that have been done lately to bring attention to hockey and the NHL.

Please expand. What deeper troubles? Record setting revenues? Record setting TV deals? People talk about all these issues with the NHL when the reality is the league as a whole is incredibly healthy. There are a few franchises that are struggling, although much of that has to do with the greater economic climate, but in general the NHL is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was just a few years ago.

[Muta]

What about markets like Cleveland and Cinncinati? I know nothing of these markets, but wouldn't a team in one of them mean a great regional rivalry for Columbus? Both cities have metro populations of 2.13 million and 2.25 million, respectively.

[ricardodw]

What about markets like Cleveland and Cinncinati? I know nothing of these markets, but wouldn't a team in one of them mean a great regional rivalry for Columbus? Both cities have metro populations of 2.13 million and 2.25 million, respectively.


Yep the extra 4 rivalry home games a year will make them a have franchise contributing to equalization and spending to the cap.

That is why Columbus is so successful:

166 miles to Detroit, 161 miles to Pittsburgh.

The 99 miles to Cinncy or 125 miles to Cleveland would provide them with a really close rivalry. The 241 miles to London Ontario brings Canada into play as a natural rival for Columbus. The 278 miles to Hamilton is just too far.


Calgary's Geographical rivals Edmonton: 172 miles Vancouver 653 miles and Winnipeg 852 miles.


Note that Columbus already has 2 natural rivals that are closer than Calgary - Edmonton

When Columbus was given a franchise the 4 million + people from Cleveland and Cincinnati were counted in the Columbus catchment area (people within 125 miles). Now that that didn't exactly pan out.......

[Resolute 14]

Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.


I'm not. There are many arguments for bringing teams to Canada and taking teams away from markets like Phoenix that rest on solid data and real world facts.

But an overwhelming majority of people don't even consider those things. All they know is that BETTMAN STOLE THE JETS AND NORDIQUES BECAUSE HE HATES CANADA!"

For every person who fits the former group, there are ten in the latter.

[hwy19man]

Winnipeg has mixed results until they found out the jets were leaving. I agree that the team should move, I'd prefer it to come to Canada because I know a team would do well in Hamilton or Quebec but I'd be open to a team going somehwere like Hartford, Seattle or KC because it might work there too.

Thing is, its not working in Phoenix and its bad for the league to have this hanging over its head. Portland has to be in the list of cities.

[Daradon]

Please expand. What deeper troubles? Record setting revenues? Record setting TV deals? People talk about all these issues with the NHL when the reality is the league as a whole is incredibly healthy. There are a few franchises that are struggling, although much of that has to do with the greater economic climate, but in general the NHL is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was just a few years ago.

I guess it's the optics of all the clubs that are in trouble. A list that has grown even today. But I'll address those other things you brought up first.

First, the TV deal. Yes it's a step in the right direction, and it's the biggest one the NHL has gotten so far. But it's hardly a great deal. In an age where all communications companies are competing and overpaying for live content the price and term of the deal has left a lot of people saying that NBC underpaid for the contract. Now, I'm not sure how much more or what else the league could have done, but don't be fooled, it's the not 'OOOOOHH!' deal the league has advertised it as. It is what it is, a small deal for a league that is still seen as small and relatively unimportant.

Secondly, revenues. The revenues, while going up, are very one sided. The Canadian clubs are carrying 2-3 times their weight, and the big markets like New York are doing their part, but there are many many markets that are not bringing in anything. Now I know the argument is that years ago, Canadian clubs had the same problem, but there is one big difference. The dollar was 65 cents! That's almost an extra 50 percent (in CDN funds) they had to pay to their biggest expenditures, salary. Even with the economy being what it is in the States, these clubs can't claim the same amount of problems as those clubs had in the past. A lot of it is bad management or just poor markets (which is the point of this whole thread and argument).

So let's go back to those markets that are having trouble. We all know Atlanta was moved last year, and Phoenix is obviously the team talked about in this thread. But we also have big problems in Florida, Columbus, Dallas (though that will probably be resolved with a better owner), Nashville is still a big question mark, the New York Islanders have announced problems this offseason, and just today it was announced that Jersey is inches away from bankruptcy. That's 7 teams! Not counting the one moved last year. 25% of the league! What if 2 or 3 of those teams had to be relocated in a year? We'd have to go to contraction for sure. And while a lot of people would like that, and it might help in the long run, I don't think many people would think reducing the number of teams in the league is a sign of a healthy league.

I will admit, maybe it's not as bad as it seems, maybe it just is the optics of it. Other leagues move teams. It's happened (semi) recently in both the NFL and NBA. But it sure seems like there are big problems bubbling under the surface with the way the NHL is managing it's franchise locations.

And that is separate from a lot of issues people have with both reffing, discipline, and safety issues.

I would disagree that the NHL is very healthy, or that much more healthy that in has been in the past. While there is good news, there is a lot of bad news too. I would argue they balancing on a wire of sorts. A problem or two away from a catastrophe. But admittedly a good deal or two or healthy franchise or two away from writing a new success story.

[Jordan!]

In the FWIW department..

@rocandmanuch Roc from Roc&Manuch
#PhoenixCoyotes: Just told Jamison group in final negotiations and hope to make announcement this week

@rocandmanuch Roc from Roc&Manuch
More specifics on last tweet: Final terms to purchase team from NHL & keep team in AZ playing@Jobing.com. No major changes to hockey ops.

[troutman]

Part of Glendale Westgate City Center repossessed by lender

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/09/19/20110919glendale-westgate-foreclosure-repossessed.html

Westgate City Center, the Glendale entertainment complex that serves as a pre-game party destination, is now partially lender-owned after a foreclosure auction Monday.

The lender iStar Financial took back the property from the developer, the Ellman Cos., after setting a minimum bid of $40 million and receiving no offers.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Just read that article, cities and sports teams are in a rough spot, especially the longer it drags on.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah the Phoenix-Glendale area was hit hard by the recession in the U.S.

As much as people like to get on PHX for not being a traditional hockey market the economic conditions in the US have not given them much of a chance to survive.

When the Football, Baseball, and Basketball teams are all struggling at times to make money, you know that the hockey team is going to be in tough times.

[transplant99]

I guess it's the optics of all the clubs that are in trouble. A list that has grown even today. But I'll address those other things you brought up first.

First, the TV deal. Yes it's a step in the right direction, and it's the biggest one the NHL has gotten so far. But it's hardly a great deal. In an age where all communications companies are competing and overpaying for live content the price and term of the deal has left a lot of people saying that NBC underpaid for the contract. Now, I'm not sure how much more or what else the league could have done, but don't be fooled, it's the not 'OOOOOHH!' deal the league has advertised it as. It is what it is, a small deal for a league that is still seen as small and relatively unimportant.

.


That's because it is...at least compared to the other 3 major sports, and it always will be. That doesnt mean, however, that the current TV deal isnt huge, because it is, but again not in comparison to the other 3.

The NHL will now be the flagship product on a brand new venture that is going to try and compete with the largest media brand in sports (ESPN)...that alone should tell you why the deal itself is such a big deal. If it's done correctly and the NBA lockout drags on as far as it appears, the whole thing could become even bigger than anticipated. Again though, that must be tempered with the fact that hockey will never ever be as big in the US as other sports, but moreso it can be grown to get a piece of that pie in its next negotiations with the different media entities. So you are correct...it is what it is, but perception of what it is and what some seem to believe it should be is where people lose perspective and think this deal isbt "all that", when in fact it really is a tremendous deal for the NHL.

[Daradon]

That's because it is...at least compared to the other 3 major sports, and it always will be. That doesnt mean, however, that the current TV deal isnt huge, because it is, but again not in comparison to the other 3.

The NHL will now be the flagship product on a brand new venture that is going to try and compete with the largest media brand in sports (ESPN)...that alone should tell you why the deal itself is such a big deal. If it's done correctly and the NBA lockout drags on as far as it appears, the whole thing could become even bigger than anticipated. Again though, that must be tempered with the fact that hockey will never ever be as big in the US as other sports, but moreso it can be grown to get a piece of that pie in its next negotiations with the different media entities. So you are correct...it is what it is, but perception of what it is and what some seem to believe it should be is where people lose perspective and think this deal isbt "all that", when in fact it really is a tremendous deal for the NHL.

Hey, like I said above, and in previous posts, it's a step in the right direction. Which means that yes, it's an important foot in the door, they could build on it in the future. That is generally what a step in the right direction means. I understand what it means and agree with how big and important it could possibly be. But it isn't yet. It's not a guarantee, especially if there are problems bubbling below the surface. That's kinda the point of what I'm saying. Sure, if all goes well, they should be able to build on the deal. But you can say that about any first step.

But if the franchises are in as much trouble as they appear to be, (oh, and I forgot to add St. Louis too, which is also rumoured to be near bankruptcy, that's EIGHT teams now, not counting Atlanta just being moved) then they may never get that chance to grow that deal. They may finally get the butter, just as the bread goes moldy so to speak.

So I was just replying as to why I thought there were problems bubbling below the surface and how the management of the league may not be as rosy as it looks. It'll take time to know one way or the other obviously. But I'm not sure how one wouldn't wonder how a different management group or commissioner would have handled this league and if it would share the same problems and success as this one. Though they love to bullet point their successes, like this deal, I'm not so sure they should be applauded. There's enough bad to go along with the good.

[tjinaz]

The issues in Dallas are completely different than the issues in Atlanta. In Atlanta ASG simply had no interest in Hockey, they took some losses and bailed. In Dallas Hicks got really really over extended in his other sports teams and is forced to sell. To say either of these are a reflection on the management of the league is a stretch. The League has no control over what other financial decisions its owners make.

Over all the league is improving its support for teams and providing excellent opportunities to market and grow the game.

[valo403]

Yeah the Dallas situation doesn't reflect negatively on the league at all, it reflects an owner that simply ran himself into the ground. The bankruptcy route simply provided a medium for a sale that wouldn't result in subsequent owners taking on mass liabilities. The fact that the sale out of bankruptcy has so far been an incredibly smooth process reflects on how strong that market actually is.

[flambers]

Yeah the Dallas situation doesn't reflect negatively on the league at all, it reflects an owner that simply ran himself into the ground. The bankruptcy route simply provided a medium for a sale that wouldn't result in subsequent owners taking on mass liabilities. The fact that the sale out of bankruptcy has so far been an incredibly smooth process reflects on how strong that market actually is.

Dallas situation is very similiar to Buffalo or Ottawa. Where it has been a location where NHL worked really well.

Simply requires a new ownership group.

Coyotes are another story.

[valo403]

Dallas situation is very similiar to Buffalo or Ottawa. Where it has been a location where NHL worked really well.

Simply requires a new ownership group.

Coyotes are another story.

Yeah, the Phoenix situation has a whole host of issues that don't exist elsewhere. I don't think it's even so much of it not being a market that can work, it's just a market that can't work with all of the baggage that is currently attached. A fresh start there could succeed, but that's not going to happen.

[Daradon]

^^^ I agree that you can't lump them all together, and that's why in my response to you I admitted it may just be the optics of it all, it may not be as bad as it seems. Both Dallas and St. Louis aren't going anywhere, even if they do hit bankruptcy with their current owners (which they probably will). And they can probably be turned around very quickly.

Still, with everything that is going on, with so many unanswered questions, and so little room for error, I don't know if I'd say the league is the healthiest it's ever been, or the management group is doing the best they could be doing. As I said, I see the league on a wire of sorts right now. It isn't a crisis, but it's nothing to get excited about either.

[Resolute 14]

"Healthiest it has ever been" is a dramatically relative argument.

The NHL contracted from 10 teams to 6 between 1930 and 1944.
The "golden era" was great for the six markets, but the league, and the sport itself stagnated badly, leading to European dominance internationally.
The Expansion era was dominated by relocation and contraction.
The 80s were a second period of stagnation, which was why the second expansion phase was hatched.
The 90s and 2000s saw great financial instability on a wide scale, even as revenues ballooned.

Is the league as healthy now as it has ever been? One could make an argument.

[valo403]

^^^ I agree that you can't lump them all together, and that's why in my response to you I admitted it may just be the optics of it all, it may not be as bad as it seems. Both Dallas and St. Louis aren't going anywhere, even if they do hit bankruptcy with their current owners (which they probably will). And they can probably be turned around very quickly.

Still, with everything that is going on, with so many unanswered questions, and so little room for error, I don't know if I'd say the league is the healthiest it's ever been, or the management group is doing the best they could be doing. As I said, I see the league on a wire of sorts right now. It isn't a crisis, but it's nothing to get excited about either.

Every league, with the exception of the NFL, is on a wire of sorts now. A crippled US economy will do that to an entity dependent upon discretionary spending. Heck, there are very few corporations period that aren't a wire of sorts now, let alone sports leagues. And yet despite that uncertainty in the general marketplace revenues are up, a TV deal heralded by media experts as great for the league was signed, and the CBA situation is relatively stable for the foreseeable future. In what areas would you argue that management is not doing the best that they could be doing? I'm certain that there are differing views on particular decisions, but that doesn't mean that the choice taken is necessarily incorrect or poor and I'm generally going to defer to the people who have the ability to know the true reality of the situation over those who are relying on fractions of information found online.

[Daradon]

Every league, with the exception of the NFL, is on a wire of sorts now. A crippled US economy will do that to an entity dependent upon discretionary spending. Heck, there are very few corporations period that aren't a wire of sorts now, let alone sports leagues. And yet despite that uncertainty in the general marketplace revenues are up, a TV deal heralded by media experts as great for the league was signed, and the CBA situation is relatively stable for the foreseeable future. In what areas would you argue that management is not doing the best that they could be doing? I'm certain that there are differing views on particular decisions, but that doesn't mean that the choice taken is necessarily incorrect or poor and I'm generally going to defer to the people who have the ability to know the true reality of the situation over those who are relying on fractions of information found online.

A few comments on your response here:

First of all, this is an internet discussion forum. If we all just defered to people 'in the know' there wouldn't be much to discuss. If we all just believed the press conferences and interviews, there wouldn't be anything to talk about. It would be: Feaster said this is his final cut and it is the best solution for the team. Ok, well he would know. End thread. Bettman says this TV is the absolute best he could get and is a major step for the league. Ok, well he would know. End thread. Discussion, has to come from what we as observers are able to observe and research. Do I work for the NHL? No, but am I (and many of the others who feel similarly) doing the best with what I see, experience, and read about? Sure am.

Secondly, you can't take everything you hear in life at face value anyway. We all know that. If we did, we'd believe every politician, get suckered by every commercial, and fall to every business' said press release. Simply because someone closer to the situation says something is true, or their viewpoint is correct, doesn't make it so. In fact often it's the opposite as they are trying to save whatever interest they have in the situation, be it a job, a reputation, or even just an opinion. We all learn from an early age to sense when things are a little off, and we all need to learn to read between the lines.

Lastly, I didn't mean any different opinions aren't correct or valid, in fact many times I softened my arguments by saying the situation could appear worse than it actually is. However, I was only replying to your challenge to give reasons on why the league may not be the healthiest it's ever been (a phrase you used) and why I felt there might be bigger issues bubbling below the surface that might be linked to how the league has been managed. Now I believe I did the first. The second is more of an opinion that one can choose to adopt or not based on the arguments everyone has contributed for or against in this thread.

Now, I never did get to the reasons on why I felt it was mismanaged because there were many points to make just to show that there were indeed problems. I actually wouldn't use the term mismanaged. Perhaps just not managed well, or getting along with the bare minimums. It's kinda like when your kid comes home with a C. Did they get the job done? Sure. Is it anything to be proud of? No. And is it going to set them up for the future? 50/50. Would another kid have done better? Well, odds are just as likely that 1 kid would do better, and 1 kid would do worse.

When we talk about how the league has been managed, there is a TON to look at and it goes back quite a way when trying to diagnose our current problems. However, I imagine, you would probably only want to talk about the current commissioner and/or people involved. In which case I'd have to look up a few things first and then properly frame my argument. In truth, I'd really only want to talk about the current people too, (and am prepared to) but I still have to go back and get my dates right. As with many arguments, we often work off our base of knowledge to form our opinions, though where we got that base from or what exactly it is may be forgotten. That's not to say it's always untrue though, that's just the way our brains work. However, even without going back I would still say that purely from a situational point of view, if you have EIGHT teams (plus one just moved) in a thirty team league in serious financial trouble, one could argue the league hasn't been managed in the best possible manner.

Now how could you do it better? Well, that's the million dollar question isn't it? But see that's why I don't have the fancy degrees and am not getting paid the millions of dollars. It's not my job. But it doesn't mean I can't understand enough to add something to the discussion or have a valid opinion. Even if that opinion is that the people in charge aren't doing a good job. We've all come across people who have been trained or hired to do something we never have, or couldn't do, that have royally fataed it up. If my surgeon caused me to bleed internally while performing a routine surgery and it caused me problems I would have every valid right to tell him he screwed up.

You also compared the NHL to the NBA and MLB. (Basically the other leagues beside the NFL) Well, NBA is going through their lockout right now, so that's a strike against them. I will be honest and say I don't really know enough about MLB to argue for them being in a better or worse position, or being managed in a better or worse way. However, I'm not sure either are looking at 30% of their teams being in trouble.

To be fair, the NHL has a bigger problem than the other two leagues. They aren't as popular as the other leagues and are operating from a worse position. At least when it comes to additional revenues like those earned from TV. So in a way, managing this league would be harder. But does that mean we shouldn't ask for a certain level of success? Does that mean they get a free pass when it comes to making mistakes? Does that mean we shouldn't, as paying fans, shouldn't be disappointed or scared when we continue to hear about franchises in trouble? Does that mean we're not allowed to shake our heads when locales we knew would never work simply aren't working and are weakening the league?

As I said, I think I passed the first challenge. The second, is of course an opinion one can choose to take or not, nothing more. And while I do take it, I don't discount or feel strongly against those who don't. Both are valid. And probably neither can be known right now (if ever). If you do want me to clarify where I felt the mistakes were made to further strengthen that opinion, I'll be glad to do so but it will take me some time to get my dates and numbers accurate. But as I said, I don't think one can look at the situation we have now and say there weren't mistakes or other course of action would probably have worked better.

[valo403]

A few comments on your response here:

First of all, this is an internet discussion forum. If we all just defered to people 'in the know' there wouldn't be much to discuss. If we all just believed the press conferences and interviews, there wouldn't be anything to talk about. It would be: Feaster said this is his final cut and it is the best solution for the team. Ok, well he would know. End thread. Bettman says this TV is the absolute best he could get and is a major step for the league. Ok, well he would know. End thread. Discussion, has to come from what we as observers are able to observe and research. Do I work for the NHL? No, but am I (and many of the others who feel similarly) doing the best with what I see, experience, and read about? Sure am.

Secondly, you can't take everything you hear in life at face value anyway. We all know that. If we did, we'd believe every politician, get suckered by every commercial, and fall to every business' said press release. Simply because someone closer to the situation says something is true, or their viewpoint is correct, doesn't make it so. In fact often it's the opposite as they are trying to save whatever interest they have in the situation, be it a job, a reputation, or even just an opinion. We all learn from an early age to sense when things are a little off, and we all need to learn to read between the lines.

Lastly, I didn't mean any different opinions aren't correct or valid, in fact many times I softened my arguments by saying the situation could appear worse than it actually is. However, I was only replying to your challenge to give reasons on why the league may not be the healthiest it's ever been (a phrase you used) and why I felt there might be bigger issues bubbling below the surface that might be linked to how the league has been managed. Now I believe I did the first. The second is more of an opinion that one can choose to adopt or not based on the arguments everyone has contributed for or against in this thread.

Now how could you do it better? Well, that's the million dollar question isn't it? But see that's why I don't have the fancy degrees and am not getting paid the millions of dollars. It's not my job. But it doesn't mean I can't understand enough to add something to the discussion or have a valid opinion. Even if that opinion is that the people in charge aren't doing a good job. We've all come across people who have been trained or hired to do something we never have, or couldn't do, that have royally fataed it up. If my surgeon caused me to bleed internally while performing a routine surgery and it caused me problems I would have every valid right to tell him he screwed up.

You also compared the NHL to the NBA and MLB. (Basically the other leagues beside the NFL) Well, NBA is going through their lockout right now, so that's a strike against them. I will be honest and say I don't really know enough about MLB to argue for them being in a better or worse position, or being managed in a better or worse way. However, I'm not sure either are looking at 30% of their teams being in trouble.

To be fair, the NHL has a bigger problem than the other two leagues. They aren't as popular as the other leagues and are operating from a worse position. At least when it comes to additional revenues like those earned from TV. So in a way, managing this league would be harder. But does that mean we shouldn't ask for a certain level of success? Does that mean they get a free pass when it comes to making mistakes? Does that mean we shouldn't, as paying fans, shouldn't be disappointed or scared when we continue to hear about franchises in trouble? Does that mean we're not allowed to shake our heads when locales we knew would never work simply aren't working and are weakening the league?

As I said, I think I passed the first challenge. The second, is of course an opinion one can choose to take or not, nothing more. And while I do take it, I don't discount or feel strongly against those who don't. Both are valid. And probably neither can be known right now (if ever). If you do want me to clarify where I felt the mistakes were made to further strengthen that opinion, I'll be glad to do so but it will take me some time to get my dates and numbers accurate. But as I said, I don't think one can look at the situation we have now and say there weren't mistakes or other course of action would probably have worked better.

I don't know how to multiquote, and that's quite essay there so forgive me if I wind up jumping around.

As to your first point, I didn't say you have to accept press releases or the statements of management as gospel. As to the TV deal I referred to an industry report that considered an extremely good deal for the NHL (I'm trying to find the link, I believe I posted it before. It was from a media industry analyst basically saying that the deal was at the top end of what the NHL could have hoped to have gotten. I found a couple of more opinion based articles saying as much, but this was more of an analysis than an opinion. I'll try to dig it up.)

I think we're on the same page with your second and third points. I don't think that there's no room for questioning, but I will defer to an educated opinion based on a complete body of information over a 'they should have done x instead' opinion based on virtually nothing. If a rationale is provided, and actual arguments are put forth, there's plenty of room for discussion around a number of issues. We may still be speculating on much of the information, but at least there's some attempt to operate in reality. I have no time for the 'Bettman sucks' style of criticism that we see all the time hear from certain posters that lacks anything even remotely resembling a solid argument.When it comes to critiquing a decision where a, b, and c all have plausible arguments backing them and the people with complete information pick a I'm not going to sit here and say they made a stupid choice. If I can make an argument with half information why would a decision made with full information not be legitimate? I hope that clarifies what I meant with the whole deferring comment.

As for the rest, I think your characterization of 8 teams in trouble is inflated. Dallas isn't in trouble, Hicks is. St. Louis is a similar situation. Considering the economic climate in the US it's no surprise that businesses relying upon the spending of discretionary income are living with tight margins. this isn't limited to sports teams, this is an economy wide issue, there's no reason to think that the NHL would be exempt from the issue. There's also the factor that in some markets the NHL is essentially still in a stage of investment. Franchises in non-traditional markets should not be judged strictly upon their current financial statements as there is a need to utilize long term strategies for growth and development of market share and revenues, it's not about immediate gratification. Actually no sports franchises should be judged upon their financial statements, or approximations thereof, these are entities that are typically part of a much larger structure that sees owners benefit through related companies. If you ever get to see the organizational tree for a professional sports team you'll likely be surprised at the number of different entities and the maze of relationships between them. Now some moves are obviously going to work, and some are obviously going to fail, an expectation of perfection would be unreasonable. Atlanta was clearly a failure. Phoenix I'm not so sure, the market itself has potential but I don't know that it can overcome the mess that it has become. Dallas has been a massive success, Nashville appears to be building a solid base, San Jose is a success to the point that it's easy to forget it's part of the whole sun belt expansion.

You also hit on an important point in that the NHL faces a more difficult job, it is the only league that's pushing into places where it really had no traditional presence. Every other major sport has the benefit of being relatively known in virtually every major market, there are very few large large markets where an NBA team wouldn't survive given the proper building etc. The same can't be said for the NHL, so many major markets have no familiarity with the game and no local base into which the NHL can tap. From day one the NHL has been fighting an uphill battle in many markets. The argument that the NHL should simply leave these markets for places where the game is established misses out on the concept of growing your market share. Appealing exclusively to existing fans is all well and good when the goal is to maintain your current position in the marketplace, it's completely incompatible with the goal of growth. If the NHL chose to stand pat in it's traditional markets it would find itself as a dying league in the near future. Not only are other leagues making efforts to grow, but the demographics of the US are changing. A focus on the northeast leaves you in an area of the country that has been relatively stagnant, or in some areas shrinking, in terms of population. People are moving into southern markets, and while not all of them are going to become hockey markets a presence in the area is important to the longterm health of the league.

I guess my overall point is that people take a far too narrow view when looking at the decisions made by most businesses, especially when they have an emotional investment like a lot of sports fans do.

[troutman]

Groundhog Day

Group in talks with Glendale to purchase Phoenix Coyotes
Ex-lawmaker, sports magnate trying again

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/09/22/20110922phoenix-coyotes-group-talks-purchase.html

Former Arizona lawmaker John Kaites and Chicago sports magnate Jerry Reinsdorf are again looking to purchase the Phoenix Coyotes (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/#)

The city and the NHL are working with a second group of potential buyers, as well. That investment group emerged last month, led by Greg Jamison, a former chief executive (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/#) of the San Jose Sharks.

Neither group has publicly discussed the structure of their bids.

A Glendale spokeswoman has said the city would not need to sell bonds to finance either deal.

[Jordan!]

Mother effing YAWN

[BACKCHECK!!!]

I'm telling you guys, an NHL fan group should buy the team and run it on-line.

Similar to these guys.

http://www.myfootballclub.co.uk/

Basically have a CP-style forum, where the board proposes moves, and we use polls to vote on those proposals.

"Trade Phaneuf for spare parts from 2nd worst team in league, Y/N?"

You'd have to make everybody who buys in promise not to tell other teams what they're doing though. Maybe some kind of on-line pinkie swearing system.

It's just as feasible as any of the plans the billionaires have come up with.

[Vulcan]

I'm telling you guys, an NHL fan group should buy the team and run it on-line.

Similar to these guys.

http://www.myfootballclub.co.uk/

Basically have a CP-style forum, where the board proposes moves, and we use polls to vote on those proposals.

"Trade Phaneuf for spare parts from 2nd worst team in league, Y/N?"

You'd have to make everybody who buys in promise not to tell other teams what they're doing though. Maybe some kind of on-line pinkie swearing system.

It's just as feasible as any of the plans the billionaires have come up with.

All of the CFL teams were once community owned but it eventually didn't work. Is Saskatchewan the last hold out?

[Mazrim]

Groundhog Day

Group in talks with Glendale to purchase Phoenix Coyotes
Ex-lawmaker, sports magnate trying again
This is seriously never going to end.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

All of the CFL teams were once community owned but it eventually didn't work. Is Saskatchewan the last hold out?

Winnipeg.

[TorqueDog]

All of the CFL teams were once community owned but it eventually didn't work. Is Saskatchewan the last hold out?The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are community-owned as well.

[flamesaresmokin]

I'm telling you guys, an NHL fan group should buy the team and run it on-line.

Similar to these guys.

http://www.myfootballclub.co.uk/

Basically have a CP-style forum, where the board proposes moves, and we use polls to vote on those proposals.

"Trade Phaneuf for spare parts from 2nd worst team in league, Y/N?"

You'd have to make everybody who buys in promise not to tell other teams what they're doing though. Maybe some kind of on-line pinkie swearing system.

It's just as feasible as any of the plans the billionaires have come up with.

That would work out well...some of the ideas thrown out around here are not what we'd call well thought out.

Teams like the packers still sell shares of the team and that would be one of the smartest ways for a group to have ownership. Basically anyone could buy into the team if they live within a certain area. Management stays the same with the only changes being that they now answer to shareholders instead of a handful of owners.

At least this way we wouldn't have a fascicle situation with people voting on moves and such.

[Envitro]

Yes, exactly. That's the only way to do it.

You can even set up ownership committees or advisory boards but that's about as far as I'd go. The executive officers would have final say on moves, etc., with guidance from the board.

[flamesaresmokin]

Yes, exactly. That's the only way to do it.

You can even set up ownership committees or advisory boards but that's about as far as I'd go. The executive officers would have final say on moves, etc., with guidance from the board.

I'm sure that would also mean all shareholders would be eligible for stanley cup rings since they played a part in the front office :whistle:

[the2bears]

Yeah the Phoenix-Glendale area was hit hard by the recession in the U.S.

As much as people like to get on PHX for not being a traditional hockey market the economic conditions in the US have not given them much of a chance to survive.

When the Football, Baseball, and Basketball teams are all struggling at times to make money, you know that the hockey team is going to be in tough times.

Arizona's economy was also hit pretty hard by boycotts and such due to its recent anti-immigrant legislation. This on top of the general economic crappery down here really hurt the state I've read.

[Resolute 14]

A Glendale spokeswoman has said the city would not need to sell bonds to finance either deal.


No, but it does need to back off of some of its demands.

[flamesaresmokin]

No, but it does need to back off of some of its demands.

No they don't. The city and its taxpayers were given assurances they would be paid back when they made this deal. Now the team is leaving and they are out millions of dollars. Not their fault and I would hold the coyotes/nhl to every stinking penny.

[Resolute 14]

Yes they do, and it is not the NHL's fault that Glendale has repeatedly undermined its attempts to find an owner. The league has gone to extreme lengths in this situation, and frankly at this point, owes the city nothing at all. It is up to Glendale to bargain in good faith if it wants to keep the team.

[shermanator]

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are community-owned as well.

And they're arguably the healthiest teams in the CFL as well.

[valo403]

No they don't. The city and its taxpayers were given assurances they would be paid back when they made this deal. Now the team is leaving and they are out millions of dollars. Not their fault and I would hold the coyotes/nhl to every stinking penny.

Well you're showing some great business acumen there. Let's take a hard line stance, not negotiate under any circumstances despite our lack of leverage, and just generally be uncooperative. That will obviously lead to a deal that avoids us footing the entire bill for an empty arena with little to no revenue streams for the foreseeable future.

Again, great thinking exhibited there.

[troutman]

Mayor: Phoenix Coyotes asking price may affect Glendale
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/01/24/20120124phoenix-coyotes-asking-price-may-affect-glendale.html

The Glendale City Council will meet behind closed doors Tuesday for an update on Phoenix Coyotes negotiations but residents and fans have gotten few recently.

The mayor raised questions about whether the NHL's asking price for the team will force Glendale to pay more.

It's been widely reported that the NHL hopes to get $170 million for the team. A recent Forbes valuation found (http://www.forbes.com/teams/phoenix-coyotes/) the team to be worth about $36 million less.

That difference complicates bidders' dealings with Glendale, which must pay off its debt on the city-owned Jobing.com (http://jobing.com/) Arena, Scruggs said.

"I think it has kept other potential buyers out of the process of trying to purchase the team and I think it is definitely impacting the financial burden that's being asked of the city of Glendale," she said.

Scruggs' comments follow the council's recommendation that the city budget another $25 million (http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/01/10/20120110glendale-city-council-takes-hard-look-city-spending.html) in the upcoming fiscal year to operate the arena in case the Coyotes aren't sold. The city has agreed to pay the NHL that amount for the past two years

Despite the challenges, Daly said the league is dealing with "a number of parties interested" in the team and hasn't looked outside the Phoenix market. He would not specify the number of bidding groups interested in the team. Former San Jose Sharks CEO Greg Jamison and Arizona lobbyist John Kaites are leading two groups that have negotiated with Glendale and the league.

[dissentowner]

John Daly is so full of crap, nobody is going to buy the Yotes and keep them in that situation. Hurry up Quebec and get your new arena done so we don't have to hear about this any more.

[IntenseFan]

^ Bill Daly you mean.

So long as the NHL can hold Glendale hostage enough to get a further $25 million for next year, they are less motivated to get a deal done.

I wonder if the Chapter 11 judge is having regrets? When he approved the NHL's bid, I'm relatively certain no one, including him, thought two years later the team would still have no buyer and still be operated (and financed) by the league and the city.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

The more I look at this situation, the more I believe that the NHL is going to own this team in perpetuity where it will be annually funded by the City of Glendale.

[atb]

The more I look at this situation, the more I believe that the NHL is going to own this team in perpetuity where it will be annually funded by the City of Glendale.

What's the benefit of doing such a thing for the NHL? In the hopes that one day hockey will take off there and the team because a profitable franchise? Why would players want to sign with a team where there is no guarantee that will be their home for more than a year.

This is assuming there is at least one other viable place to move the team, ie Quebec.

[Northendzone]

So glendale is ready to flush away $75 million.......wonder when Scruggs is up for reelection?

[hwy19man]

The more I look at this situation, the more I believe that the NHL is going to own this team in perpetuity where it will be annually funded by the City of Glendale. Annual fundraisers then?

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Man do I not miss this gong show at all. Scruggs makes Gadhafi look sane.

[Iggy3x]

So glendale is ready to flush away $75 million.......wonder when Scruggs is up for reelection?

After 4 more years of this, the city of Glendale would have essentially purchased the team. I wonder if the league will be up for that or if that'll even be legal. I know that operating payment and capital expenses are different, but I wonder if the league would count the payment towards the final purchase price. Maybe Glendale should consider doing that.

[Stay Golden]

The citizens of Glendale should livid. They should have shares of the Coyotes after all the payments to the NHL. Its insaine

[Northendzone]

A city owning a pro sports franchise is a lot like a mule with a spinning wheel........I wonder if ms. Scruggs is interested in buying a fleet of hovercrafts I bought at the military surplus sale. I sold some to ogdenville and north haberbrook........ah it is more of a s tots dale idea....and besides, billy d tells me there are many many buyers interested, but they wish to keep a low profile for now until mthe end of the decade.....

[troutman]

City in Penalty Box Over Team Finances
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577181231337161186.html

Glendale, Ariz., is selling about $136 million in debt in the municipal-bond market this week, just days after Moody's Investors Service cut its bond rating because of the desert city's obligations to cover losses on a National Hockey League franchise.

Moody's downgraded Glendale's general-obligation bond rating a notch, from Aa2 to Aa3, last week, noting the city's "strained" financial position after a "significant" payment to the NHL for the Phoenix Coyotes' operating losses.

Moody's also has a negative outlook for Glendale, because it may have to pay the NHL as much as $25 million more, for 2012, if the team doesn't secure a new owner in the coming months.

Glendale's commitment to the Coyotes is enough to keep some investors from buying the city's debt.

[troutman]

Walt Opaska Calls on Mayor Scruggs, Council to Prepare for Life Without The Coyotes
http://sonoranalliance.com/2012/01/24/walt-opaska-calls-on-mayor-scruggs-council-to-prepare-for-life-without-the-coyotes/

City of Glendale mayoral candidate Walt Opaska calls on Mayor Scruggs and the City Council to plan for the possibility that if the Coyotes leave Glendale. Major Scruggs and City Council must start a process to find a company to manage Jobing.com arena if the Coyotes leave Glendale.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Like sands through the hour glass, these are the Days of Our Lives...

[fundmark19]

I wish they could work something out. I went to a yotes game last week vs the avs and I was really impressed with the building and fan support that actually showed up. The entertainment district around the stadium as well as the NFL stadium is really neat. I was shocked at how many yotes fans actually had jerseys on. The building is really nice and there is literally not a bad seat in the house.

Sad to see them go out like this!

[Resolute 14]

Walt Opaska Calls on Mayor Scruggs, Council to Prepare for Life Without The Coyotes
http://sonoranalliance.com/2012/01/24/walt-opaska-calls-on-mayor-scruggs-council-to-prepare-for-life-without-the-coyotes/

City of Glendale mayoral candidate Walt Opaska calls on Mayor Scruggs and the City Council to plan for the possibility that if the Coyotes leave Glendale. Major Scruggs and City Council must start a process to find a company to manage Jobing.com arena if the Coyotes leave Glendale.

I wonder if Phoenix would support an AHL team right away. Because, honestly, that is the only way that building ever gets any use if the Coyotes leave.

[valo403]

I wonder if Phoenix would support an AHL team right away. Because, honestly, that is the only way that building ever gets any use if the Coyotes leave.

Yep, the issue Glendale has is that letting the Yotes leave doesn't get rid of their financial headache, and it may actually make it worse. Sure they're paying out $25mil, but they at least see some type of returns in the form of taxes, economic activity and other related things. Certainly not huge returns, but returns nonetheless. If the Yotes leave you lose a lot of that, and I'm not sure that it would be all that much cheaper to simply mothball the place, although I admittedly don't know how much that sort of thing would cost.

The city got itself into a terrible position from day one with that building, and now they're really left with choosing from a bad option and a worse option.

[troutman]

I wonder if Phoenix would support an AHL team right away. Because, honestly, that is the only way that building ever gets any use if the Coyotes leave.

I don't know - what about college sports, concerts, wrestling, monster trucks, rodeos, expos?

February Event calendar:

http://www.jobingarena.com/events.aspx?CalDate=2012-Feb-01

[fundmark19]

I don't know - what about college sports, concerts, wrestling, monster trucks, expos?

The problem is it is all they way out in glendale. People have no problem driving there for NFL but I can't see much more then that except for concerts and maybe NCAA tournaments.

I would guess if the rink was more in the convention center part of the city like chase field they would have much better turn outs

[valo403]

I don't know - what about college sports, concerts, wrestling, monster trucks, rodeos, expos?

February Event calendar:

http://www.jobingarena.com/events.aspx?CalDate=2012-Feb-01

9 non-hockey dates over the next 2 months. Unlikely enough to pay the electric bill. The tough thing for this arena is that it has direct competition in the market with the US Airways Center. No anchor tenant and competition for other events would be rough.

[troutman]

9 non-hockey dates over the next 2 months. Unlikely enough to pay the electric bill. The tough thing for this arena is that it has direct competition in the market with the US Airways Center. No anchor tenant and competition for other events would be rough.

Presumably, without an NHL tenant, they should be able to book more than 9 non-hockey dates in two months. Glendale is not central, but Phoenix is a large metro area, and there should be plenty of big concert tours wanting to stop there.

I'm going to look up the event schedule at US Airways . . .

http://usairwayscenter.com/calendar/events/printrange/?year=2012&month=02

Looks like US Airways is not booked that much either besides the Suns.

Where do the big concert tours play in Phoenix?

[fundmark19]

Presumably, without an NHL tenant, they should be able to book more than 9 non-hockey dates in two months. Glendale is not central, but Phoenix is a large metro area, and there should be plenty of big concert tours wanting to stop there.

I'm going to look up the event schedule at US Airways . . .

http://usairwayscenter.com/calendar/events/printrange/?year=2012&month=02

Looks like US Airways is not booked that much either besides the Suns.

Where do the big concert tours play in Phoenix?

Looks like there are tons of venues in phoenix for concerts depending on size and they are spread out between us airways and glendale.

http://www.phoenixconcerts.net/

[Resolute 14]

I don't know - what about college sports, concerts, wrestling, monster trucks, rodeos, expos?

February Event calendar:

http://www.jobingarena.com/events.aspx?CalDate=2012-Feb-01

Yeah, I looked at the calendar before my comment. Three events totaling five dates in February. There were ZERO in January. Four in March.

For non-major tenant usage isn't that much worse than the Saddledome. Except that the Saddledome has 44 guaranteed dates + playoffs from the Hitmen and Roughnecks.

Without an anchor tenant, that facility would be lucky to be used 6-7 days a month. There are just too many other competing facilities in metro Phoenix.

[afc wimbledon]

I predict

OZkr0A9633Q

[Notorious Honey Badger]

as much as id love to see a coyotes/jets rivalry... you sorta have to have 2 fan bases to have a rivalry...

[カナダ人です]

This whole relocation to Phoenix seemed doomed from the start. US Airways arena, located in downtown Phoenix, was/is unsuitable for hockey. So it doesn't take a genius to predict that the Coyotes/Jets would have to build an arena of their own, and likely in the suburbs.

Knowing this, they still moved the team to a non-traditional hockey market in one of the hottest deserts in the world (Sonoran Desert).

Just seems like a bit too much round-hole-square-peg bashing. Maybe it's time to call this a failed experiment and move on.

[valo403]

This whole relocation to Phoenix seemed doomed from the start. US Airways arena, located in downtown Phoenix, was/is unsuitable for hockey. So it doesn't take a genius to predict that the Coyotes/Jets would have to build an arena of their own, and likely in the suburbs.

Knowing this, they still moved the team to a non-traditional hockey market in one of the hottest deserts in the world (Sonoran Desert).

Just seems like a bit too much round-hole-square-peg bashing. Maybe it's time to call this a failed experiment and move on.

Where do you propose that they have been moved way back when?

[saskflames69]

Like sands through the hour glass, these are the Days of Our Lives...Like the cleaning of a house, It Never Ends..
http://thecryptojournalist.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/the-simpsons-it-never-ends.png

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

What's the benefit of doing such a thing for the NHL? In the hopes that one day hockey will take off there and the team because a profitable franchise? Why would players want to sign with a team where there is no guarantee that will be their home for more than a year.

This is assuming there is at least one other viable place to move the team, ie Quebec.

For next season at least there's the benefit of holding the contraction hammer over the heads of the NHLPA during CBA negotiations.

[Tsawwassen]

For next season at least there's the benefit of holding the contraction hammer over the heads of the NHLPA during CBA negotiations. Bringing out the contraction hammer would make things get real ugly quickly. Both sides would dig in to their positions, become reluctant, and seal the deal for a lockout or strike. More than likely it will be the relocating hammer.

[valo403]

For next season at least there's the benefit of holding the contraction hammer over the heads of the NHLPA during CBA negotiations.

Yeah as Tswwassen said that's a nuclear option. The NHLPA knows that the NHL has no desire to contract, a move like that sends the message to the market that you're in dire straights.

That's the kind of negotiation we'd see if each side sent it's favorite message board poster, as opposed to highly skilled negotiators who understand the repercussions of everything they put on the table. Although I think it would be way more fun if CBA negotiations were a massive internet flame war.

[Miniac]

Battman says a third group is interested.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=386180

[Northendzone]

I love how bettman says there are "probably" three interested groups....like he is not sure....

I love how reinsdorf's name keeps coming up, it is like he has been around this team for 3 or 4 years.....

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Maybe it's the Balkan from Atlanta...

[valo403]

I love how bettman says there are "probably" three interested groups....like he is not sure....

I love how reinsdorf's name keeps coming up, it is like he has been around this team for 3 or 4 years.....

Probably because he has been

[PegCityFlamesFan]

He's a smart man and will wait until he can get the most concessions possible. Take advantage of the situation.

[Northendzone]

^ because three years is not a long enough wait.........

[Geeoff]

I think the Coyotes are gone and Bettman just doesn't want to say it. His statement is full of unsure language and double negatives.

[valo403]

^ because three years is not a long enough wait.........

What do you think this is? A line for popcorn? He's been around the situation for years because he wants to buy the team, but he wants to buy the team on his terms. The longer this drags out the more favorable the terms become, it's really not a difficult situation to understand.

[Northendzone]

At this point I'd be stunned if reinsdorf winds up with the team......If he really wanted to make a deal it would be done by now.

[hwy19man]

The city of Glendale may pay another 25 million dollars to keep the team for another season.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/councillor-glendale-flirting-with-financial-disaster-over-coyotes/article2317577/

[TorqueDog]

The city of Glendale may pay another 25 million dollars to keep the team for another season.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/councillor-glendale-flirting-with-financial-disaster-over-coyotes/article2317577/ I wish I could be as bad at my job as Elaine Scruggs is and stay employed somehow.

[valo403]

At this point I'd be stunned if reinsdorf winds up with the team......If he really wanted to make a deal it would be done by now.

Why would it be done by now? Everything that has happened since the first day he showed interest has done nothing but improve his bargaining position. There is absolutely no reason why he would make a deal when the ability to get the same return on more favorable terms exists.

[Nuje]

Why would it be done by now? Everything that has happened since the first day he showed interest has done nothing but improve his bargaining position. There is absolutely no reason why he would make a deal when the ability to get the same return on more favorable terms exists.

Yup, the more the clock ticks, the more concessions would be made for him. I still don't believe that enough concessions can possibly be made, to create a situation where any potential owner, and the city of Glendale, can both make this work. I can see a situation where someone buckles and goes in, but I just don't believe there is any way an NHL team in that location does anything but bleed money, and profusely I might add.

[Northendzone]

While I see what you are saying, but does this means he waits 2 more, 4 more, 8 more years?

After all this time you'd think if there was a deal to be made.....to me the brand is taking a beating.......

[valo403]

While I see what you are saying, but does this means he waits 2 more, 4 more, 8 more years?

After all this time you'd think if there was a deal to be made.....to me the brand is taking a beating.......

He makes a deal when the optimal conditions are present, that could be tomorrow or it could be in a decade. He's obviously interested, but not under terms that don't fit his model. You're trying to put expiry dates on something to which they don't apply.

[Nuje]

He makes a deal when the optimal conditions are present, that could be tomorrow or it could be in a decade. He's obviously interested, but not under terms that don't fit his model. You're trying to put expiry dates on something to which they don't apply.

I think they do apply. The NHL's owners, and Bettman, know damn well that contraction is quite a can of worms. While the NHL itself remains profitable, this situation is sustainable indefinitely, but if the Phoenix Coyotes continue to be a part of the league that runs a constant deficit, at some point, the league will have to decide to either move it, or if no suitable location arises, collapse it.

At some point, the 29 other (well, the 29 really, drop the 'other') owners will think something needs to be done about this one team they're propping up. If it were making money, that would be one thing, but it's not. The city is paying $25 million to cover losses, and that still doesn't fully cover it. The city has said that it will not do that again. So the potential owner has to find out how to take them out of the red, PLUS 25 million dollars a year. If it were possible to create such a turnaround, don't you think teams would've never had to move?

Glendale is best off with an AHL team. They can keep the same ticket prices, lose a few season ticket holders, and pay MUCH less in salaries. Besides, the RoadRunner always wins in the end over the Coyote. :)

[valo403]

I think they do apply. The NHL's owners, and Bettman, know damn well that contraction is quite a can of worms. While the NHL itself remains profitable, this situation is sustainable indefinitely, but if the Phoenix Coyotes continue to be a part of the league that runs a constant deficit, at some point, the league will have to decide to either move it, or if no suitable location arises, collapse it.

At some point, the 29 other (well, the 29 really, drop the 'other') owners will think something needs to be done about this one team they're propping up. If it were making money, that would be one thing, but it's not. The city is paying $25 million to cover losses, and that still doesn't fully cover it. The city has said that it will not do that again. So the potential owner has to find out how to take them out of the red, PLUS 25 million dollars a year. If it were possible to create such a turnaround, don't you think teams would've never had to move?

Glendale is best off with an AHL team. They can keep the same ticket prices, lose a few season ticket holders, and pay MUCH less in salaries. Besides, the RoadRunner always wins in the end over the Coyote. :)

Everything you wrote works to the favor of Reinsdorf waiting in the wings as opposed to making a deal now.

[Nuje]

Everything you wrote works to the favor of Reinsdorf waiting in the wings as opposed to making a deal now.

I agree. I just don't believe there is any point on this ridiculous teeter-totter of financial balance of "NHL hockey in Glendale" that will result in anything but one (or both) of Reinsdorf, and Glendale losing money. Hockey in Phoenix is about as logical as baseball in Poland. Not enough people there give a crap.

[Daradon]

Ma? is that you?

Speak to me ma. Speak to me.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

According to Mike Sunnucks of the Phoenix Business Journal, the NHL is "close to putting the finishing touches on a sale." But if you read between the lines, it appears this is far from a done deal. Sunnucks noted the deal has to go "through final approvals and due diligence as well as through the city of Glendale." It seems strange that the Jamison group has been nosing around the franchise for more than a year and there are still questions of due diligence.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Coyotes+might+stay+desert/6190311/story.html#ixzz1n93W3bIe (http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Coyotes+might+stay+desert/6190311/story.html#ixzz1n93W3bIe)

[valo403]

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Coyotes+might+stay+desert/6190311/story.html#ixzz1n93W3bIe (http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Coyotes+might+stay+desert/6190311/story.html#ixzz1n93W3bIe)

It probably seems strange that there are still issues of due diligence because Pat Hickey doesn't understand what due diligence means. A party nosing around an acquisition isn't going to have access to the vast majority of things that would typically be reviewed as part of their diligence until a more formal process had been initiated.

[Northendzone]

At this point should the NHL not be prequalifying parties that start to express interest?

Sometimes I think if I lived in mount royal or pump hill and I engaged Gary bettman as my real estate guy to assist with the sale of my house, he would spend his time driving around cash corner with pictures of house asking who is interested and he would call me and tell me that he has several interested parties.......

[valo403]

At this point should the NHL not be prequalifying parties that start to express interest?

Sometimes I think if I lived in mount royal or pump hill and I engaged Gary bettman as my real estate guy to assist with the sale of my house, he would spend his time driving around cash corner with pictures of house asking who is interested and he would call me and tell me that he has several interested parties.......

Well the NHL only controls part of the equation here. They can prequalify all they want, but unless Glendale is on board with the terms the deal isn't going to happen. It's also not free to go through the process, there are significant costs involved, so to think that the NHL and the potential buyer are just going through the process for kicks is pretty naive.

[Stay Golden]

At this point should the NHL not be prequalifying parties that start to express interest?

Sometimes I think if I lived in mount royal or pump hill and I engaged Gary bettman as my real estate guy to assist with the sale of my house, he would spend his time driving around cash corner with pictures of house asking who is interested and he would call me and tell me that he has several interested parties.......

and i wonder what Bettmans under the table cut is :whistle:

[troutman]

Shootout looms: Coyotes ownership situation always at forefront


http://www.glendalestar.com/news/headlines/article_bf88a444-5cb2-11e1-97f6-001871e3ce6c.html

John Dellapina, vice president of communications for the NHL, said the negotiations are at a standstill.

"The problem is we can't say much because it's private entities," Dellapina said

The City of Glendale has been kept out of the proceedings, according to Assistant Deputy City Manager Julie Frisoni.

"We can't talk about the aspects of the deal," Frisoni said.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Shootout looms: Coyotes ownership situation always at forefront


http://www.glendalestar.com/news/headlines/article_bf88a444-5cb2-11e1-97f6-001871e3ce6c.html

John Dellapina, vice president of communications for the NHL, said the negotiations are at a standstill.

"The problem is we can't say much because it's private entities," Dellapina said

The City of Glendale has been kept out of the proceedings, according to Assistant Deputy City Manager Julie Frisoni.

"We can't talk about the aspects of the deal," Frisoni said.

The names of Jim Balsillie, Ice Edge Holdings, Jerry Reinsdorf, former San Jose Sharks President and CEO Greg Jamison and briefly, Jeremy Roenick, have been mentioned at one time or another with the hopes of keeping the team in Arizona.

Funny how the above article doesn't even mention Hulsizer.

[GreenLantern2814]

The names of Jim Balsillie, Ice Edge Holdings, Jerry Reinsdorf, former San Jose Sharks President and CEO Greg Jamison and briefly, Jeremy Roenick, have been mentioned at one time or another with the hopes of keeping the team in Arizona.

Funny how the above article doesn't even mention Hulsizer.

Could that be because he just bought the Blues?

[troutman]

Due diligence tripping up Phoenix Coyotes sale?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/morning_call/2012/03/due-diligence-tripping-up-phoenix.html?ana=RSS&s=article_search

The challenge for the Coyotes sale has been that “crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s” phase. The team has been losing $20 million to $25 million a year. Prospective ownership groups have struggled over the red stains on the Coyotes' balance sheet and how to work out something related to the team’s losses with the NHL and Glendale.

One source who has direct knowledge of the Coyotes' long-running saga says prospective buyers have come in with optimism regarding their bids, only to run into stumbling blocks when investment partners see the franchise’s losses.

[valo403]

Due diligence tripping up Phoenix Coyotes sale?

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/morning_call/2012/03/due-diligence-tripping-up-phoenix.html?ana=RSS&s=article_search

The challenge for the Coyotes sale has been that “crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s” phase. The team has been losing $20 million to $25 million a year. Prospective ownership groups have struggled over the red stains on the Coyotes' balance sheet and how to work out something related to the team’s losses with the NHL and Glendale.

One source who has direct knowledge of the Coyotes' long-running saga says prospective buyers have come in with optimism regarding their bids, only to run into stumbling blocks when investment partners see the franchise’s losses.

Not surprising, they come in thinking 'how bad can it be? We're a bunch of hotshots we can turn anything around' and then when they get a look at the books that bravado is replaced by a dash for the exit.

[VladtheImpaler]

Not surprising, they come in thinking 'how bad can it be? We're a bunch of hotshots we can turn anything around' and then when they get a look at the books that bravado is replaced by a dash for the exit.

Presumably any sports team purchase is more for "fun" than "profit", but the Coyotes numbers must be so horrific as to scare off anyone and everyone, unless Glendale is prepared to prop it up...

[valo403]

Presumably any sports team purchase is more for "fun" than "profit", but the Coyotes numbers must be so horrific as to scare off anyone and everyone, unless Glendale is prepared to prop it up...

Yeah, I imagine it's a case of buyers who are okay with a bit of a loss from year to year, maybe even looking for one for tax purposes, but they see the degree of loss and are scared off. It could also be something where they get into the diligence process and see terms in leases and other agreements that would make a turn around of any sort a near impossibility.

[Envitro]

Agreed, that's why I wouldn't imagine that anyone considers losing $20 mil per year "fun".

If you can't put bums in seats then it's not a viable city for hockey. I was shocked that when I was down there over Xmas break I couldn't find a single ticket on game night for the 'yotes vs Bruins game. So you have 1-3 sellouts per year, and the rest is all 6-8k attendance at best. Not a very tenable scenario.

And I don't really buy the whole "we are just waiting for ownership to stabilize before we start going to games again" argument. I'm sure that a certain percentage of fans feel that way, but really isn't the time to do so now? Like our Save our Flames campaign a while back, ownership demanded commitment from the fans and we stepped up.

It's really strange, my folks have owned a place in Phoenix the last 3 years and nobody that they have met have even heard of the Coyotes, and at best it was marginal knowledge of hearing something on the news or sports shows. I know, it's not much of an argument but it's kind of an indicator of interest if there's no buzz in town. Also, I can't ever find any Coyotes gear in a Target, Wal-Mart or any kind of store like that. Always D-backs, Cardinals and tons of U of Az stuff.

This market is kind of bad, and it would be worse if not for all of the snowbirds, ex-pats, and northerners vacationing down there so much.

[Northendzone]

One source who has direct knowledge of the Coyotes' long-running saga says prospective buyers have come in with optimism regarding their bids, only to run into stumbling blocks when investment partners see the franchise’s losses.

this cracks me up - i am sure if you googled phoenix coyotes and profit you would find very few hits; while a search for phoenix coyotes and loss would yield millions of hits......

it would be interewting to see the bids and how much support they see getting from glendale.

fortunately jerry riensdorf remains interested........:rolleyes:

[valo403]

this cracks me up - i am sure if you googled phoenix coyotes and profit you would find very few hits; while a search for phoenix coyotes and loss would yield millions of hits......

it would be interewting to see the bids and how much support they see getting from glendale.

fortunately jerry riensdorf remains interested........:rolleyes:

You should sell this information, I bet these buyers were totally unaware of it.

Looking at the actual books would be crucial in determining where losses are being suffered and how realistic a fix would be.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I think the realization comes when the numbers are crunched and they see that with the current prices being charged, the team would still lose boatloads even if they were to miraculously sell out every game. They need to charge more to make it work but they just can't.