The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[Jordan!]

http://coyotes.azvibe.com/2011/02/28/hulsizer-tells-fsnaz-this-deal-is-gonna-close/

Bit of a transcript from an Interview that was live on Fox Sports AZ. Sounds like this deal is done but Matt wants to help Glendale in getting Goldwater to back off which would reduce the interest rate on the bonds. With or without that, the deal will close.

[cam_wmh]

Ya know, mid-season Flames away game road-trips, are much more appealing in Arizona, than Winnipeg. So that's my bit of backing.

[Lester]

isnt there a thread for this already?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

They can't issue the bonds at anything more than 6% as they don't have a parking study which would show the ability to recover funds at anything more than 6%. Right now the rate is 9%. That would cost the city an extra $100 million over 30 years (bringing it to $350 million). They would lose in court and lose big.

[Lester]

id love to know more about this parking revenue thing. honestly i havent followed this whole phoenix/gold water thing too closely.. what is the legal issue at hand?

[nickk382]

Man, I can't wait till this thing is absolutely 100% a done deal.

[Resolute 14]

"We have everything we need...."

...except other people's money.

[dissentowner]

Sure they do. Not buying it.

[Da_Chief]

id love to know more about this parking revenue thing. honestly i havent followed this whole phoenix/gold water thing too closely.. what is the legal issue at hand?

Why don't ya just read this other thread you speak of?

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Didn't I hear this in January? December? Last summer? Ice Edge? Reisendorf?

[Northendzone]

so the deal is not 100% completed then because of something with people....

[Cowperson]

so the deal is not 100% completed then because of something with people....

The Goldwater Institute is a taxpayer advocacy group.

They're in a tough pickle because defeating the deal might cause taxpayers to lose $100 million up front.

OR, in this case, the buyer is saying their advocacy and objections might cause taxpayers to pay $100 million in additional financing costs through the next 30 years.

You're not much of a taxpayer advocacy group if you're costing taxpayers $100 million at every turn.

It almost looks like Goldwater is giving up on the bigger solution of defeating the this on grounds the city couldn't llegally enter the deal in the first place, which would render the $100 million poison pill irrelevant.

Now they're just being irritating and in danger of turning into the bad guys.

This doesn't look like a detail that will prevent closing.

Cowperson

[Regular_John]

It's always closing "in two weeks time" :rolleyes:

[Locke]

isnt there a thread for this already?

Theres always another thread.

[troutman]

The Coyotes called me last week in Calgary, to see if I will be in Phoenix for the next Flames visit.

A marketing plan that relies on fans of the visiting team is not long for this world.

[automaton 3]

This parking revenue is a live issue IMO and Goldwater is right to look into it.

The City of Glendale hasn't helped its own cause here by not releasing documents in a timely fashion or at all, apparently not even to their own City Counsel members before they voted which is hugely concerning. If there is nothing to hide here and the deal is above board in evey respect, why would they not release the information to Goldwater...they could probably do so under a non-disclosure agreeement if there is information in there not for public consumption. What do they have to hide, and what do they have to lose?

If the parking revenue will not service the debt, the taxpayers will be on the hook pure and simple. Easy for Hulsizer to say "we have everything we need" when he isn't playing with his own money.

Seems to me that there is some posturing going on right now as to who to point the finger at if this thing fails.

[valo403]

They can't issue the bonds at anything more than 6% as they don't have a parking study which would show the ability to recover funds at anything more than 6%. Right now the rate is 9%. That would cost the city an extra $100 million over 30 years (bringing it to $350 million). They would lose in court and lose big.

And who is going to bring suit? Goldwater? I'll beleive it when I see it. Until then they are self aggrandizing blowhards.

[Cowperson]

And who is going to bring suit? Goldwater? I'll beleive it when I see it. Until then they are self aggrandizing blowhards.

I agree. Goldwater really looks like its stumped.

It's either go for the whole enchilada - winning the principle the city couldn't legally sign the deal - or get lost since anything less than total victory costs taxpayers $100 million.

And the more I think about it, the more it looks like the poison pill was designed for exactly that all or nothing purpose.

Goldwater = gnats.

Cowperson

[fokkerfan]

After reading the following it looks like he is getting the franchise for free:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/5741

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Clock ticks again on Coyotes, Hulsizer deal as Goldwater lawsuit lingers


Read more: Clock ticks again on Coyotes, Hulsizer deal as Goldwater lawsuit lingers | Phoenix Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2011/02/clock-ticks-again-on-coyotes-hulsizer.html?ana=twt#ixzz1FJIGzkWN)



Sources familiar with the Coyotes situation said the deal with Hulsizer may only have a few days to get done, or the entire package could fall apart. It was just a few weeks ago that the city of Glendale and Coyotes officials were optimistic a bond sale that would help finance the team’s sale was moving forward.Read more: Clock ticks again on Coyotes, Hulsizer deal as Goldwater lawsuit lingers | Phoenix Business Journal

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I agree. Goldwater really looks like its stumped.

It's either go for the whole enchilada - winning the principle the city couldn't legally sign the deal - or get lost since anything less than total victory costs taxpayers $100 million.

And the more I think about it, the more it looks like the poison pill was designed for exactly that all or nothing purpose.

Goldwater = gnats.

Cowperson

Except, at the current interest rate (8%) and the threat of litigation, it is impossible to sell these bonds and Goldwater knows that.

Glendale needs to find a plan B and fast because these bonds aren't selling.

[Dogbert]

After reading the following it looks like he is getting the franchise for free:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/5741

He is. Glendale is essentially bending over and asking Hulsizer to be gentle so they won't have a fancy new arena without a tenant.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

THE Goldwater Institute called Matthew Hulsizer's bluff on Monday and no imminent resolution appears upcoming in the ongoing saga of the Phoenix Coyotes sale.

"Moody's and S&P both already downgraded Glendale's general bonds due to excessively high levels of debt. Any investor with a head on his shoulders should be nervous about buying bonds to back a corporate subsidy that appears to be an illegal deal in violation of the Arizona constitution," said Olsen, in an email to the Free Press.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/coyotes-purchase-no-closer-to-closing-117135928.html

[valo403]

Except, at the current interest rate (8%) and the threat of litigation, it is impossible to sell these bonds and Goldwater knows that.

Glendale needs to find a plan B and fast because these bonds aren't selling.

You missed the point. Goldwater's involvement has all but guaranteed that the taxpayers lose $100mil+ with next to no chance of recouping the loss. Great tax payer advocacy there, not that I expected anything more after looking at some of the people involved with the group.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

You missed the point. Goldwater's involvement has all but guaranteed that the taxpayers lose $100mil+ with next to no chance of recouping the loss. Great tax payer advocacy there, not that I expected anything more after looking at some of the people involved with the group.

GWI knows that they can just threaten a lawsuit and it will force the bonds to plummit more, leaving the likelyhood of the COG giving up. Coyotes fans may hate GWI but the 90% rest of the population won't even notice.

[fokkerfan]

Wouldn't everyone in Glendale be better off finding new ways to fill the 41 dates a year?

[valo403]

GWI knows that they can just threaten a lawsuit and it will force the bonds to plummit more, leaving the likelyhood of the COG giving up. Coyotes fans may hate GWI but the 90% rest of the population won't even notice.

Due to apathy that's probably correct, but the fact remains that Goldwater's actions do more to guarantee a $100mil loss for Glendale than the subsidies to Hulsizer ever would have. At least with the altter scenario there's a potential to recoup the loss, and potentially profit. As is the loss is guaranteed and virtually unrecoverable. The net result is bad for everyone, except of course that courageous bunch over at Goldwater.

[valo403]

Wouldn't everyone in Glendale be better off finding new ways to fill the 41 dates a year?

Such as?

[fokkerfan]

I dunno, Monster Trucks, Justin Bieber, an AHL team? Parking costs would probably be the same as it doesn't seem to matter what the event is at the saddledome. It's always the same cost.

[valo403]

I dunno, Monster Trucks, Justin Bieber, an AHL team? Parking costs would probably be the same as it doesn't seem to matter what the event is at the saddledome. It's always the same cost.

So it's your opinion that there are an unlimited supply of events just waiting to be in the Jobing.com arena (it's still called that, right?) and if the Coyotes were to leave those 41 dates would be easily filled? Okay :rolleyes:

[fokkerfan]

No, all I said was maybe they should start looking for other events.

[valo403]

No, all I said was maybe they should start looking for other events.

And that's my point, there's a reason that arena's want anchor tenants like professional sports franchises, other events don't come by all that frequently. Sure you could fill a few of those dates, but you aren't going to be able to offset 41 dates by amping up your monster truck shows. The Phoenix market is especially tough in that there's another arena to compete with for these alternate events.

[automaton 3]

Such as?

Honestly, good question. Concerts and tractor pulls I suppose, but would they be in competition with the US Airways Arena for those events?

At the end of the day it comes back to the original decision to build an 17,000+ seat arena in a city about the same size as Saskatoon. Granted a major market, population and fan base is nearby in the Phoenix area, but consumers vote with their feet. This venue simply might not be viable, new ownership/marketing plan or not.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

I know the trade deadline is over but:

To Phoenix:
Manitoba Moose
Goldenboy Statue
Naming rights to Salsbury House

To Winnipeg:
Phoenix Coyotes

[PeteMoss]

Do the Suns have an ownership stack in the US Airways Arena?

I've gone to a Suns game and the arena really isn't that nice. The Suns owner is extremely cheap as well... you'd think you could easily convince him to move if it'd earn him some dollars.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

http://mikethebouncer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dental-plan-demotivational-poster-1221503227.jpg

[Lester]

So far as I can tell, GWI is holding up the sale of the Coyotes just fine doing nothing but threaten to sue if they put the deal thru. GWI doesn't have to do anything... they've successfully raised the interest rate and made the deal even worse for Glendale residents to the tune of 100 million+. Also, the NHL has stated it wont allow the deal to go thru if GWI sues. But GWI wont commit to that until the the city commits to the deal. It's like a game of chicken.

The question is how long will the NHL wait? The schedules have to be made within a few months for next year. I don't think the NHL will want to run the Yotes for another season so I think a realistic drop dead date would be around 2 to 3 months (tops) from now. And that's literally taking it up the razors edge.

This sounds like a headache and a half for the league frankly

[Stats87]

How much are they going to charge for parking, or what was the proposed number? I heard $20 a couple times but wasn't sure if that was legit.

[Lester]

the parking study shows that when they charge for parking (its free now) they estimate to BREAK even with 6% interest on bonds. There are other studies that show they lose money.

change the interest rate to 9%, what it is now, and it violates the gift clause. pure and simple. its a real mess for the city council. I've been reading the Glendale Republic online and it seems that the site is over run with Canadians and furious Glendale residents, and a token few Coyote fans who don't seem to care how much money the city has to pay to keep them around. They're arguing for overall impact on the city, while the others are arguing against the huge loans.

[Jets4Life]

Wouldn't everyone in Glendale be better off finding new ways to fill the 41 dates a year?


By moving them to Winnipeg?

[Jets4Life]

I look forward to greeting the Arizona moving fans pulling up to the MTS Centre this spring.

[afc wimbledon]

How much are they going to charge for parking, or what was the proposed number? I heard $20 a couple times but wasn't sure if that was legit.

Doesn't that mean you are paying twice as much for your car not to see the game as you are to see it?

[afc wimbledon]

After reading the following it looks like he is getting the franchise for free:
http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/5741

Why in gods name would anyone with any sense pay for a hockey team in Phoenix?
What he is really getting is an futures option on the team in a better market.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I look forward to greeting the Georgia moving fans pulling up to the MTS Centre this spring.

Fixed your post.

[Lester]

Fixed your post.

I dont think he, or other Jet fans or Winnipeg people care about that difference.

[Lester]

CJOB, a winnipeg radio station is going to discuss the Coyote situation and talk to someone from the AZ republic. Tuneinradio will let you listen :)

[Vulcan]

I dont think he, or other Jet fans or Winnipeg people care about that difference.

I don't know, who has the better team or the most potential. Maybe QC and Winnipeg could draw for who gets who.

Meanwhile Quebecor and QC have done a deal.

"Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume announced a 25-year partnership with the media conglomerate during a press conference Tuesday afternoon.

Labeaume said Quebecor would manage the arena's operations and acquire naming rights for the new arena, with or without the involvement of an NHL franchise.
But the amount of the media giant's investment will depend on whether the city can attract a team.
The company will contribute $63 million if an NHL franchise signs on, or $33 million in the absence of a professional team.
Quebecor will pay the city another $3.15 million annually for the right to manage the building."




http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/03/01/quebecor-quebec-arena.html

Maybe the Goldwater Inst. should open an office in Quebec.

[Lester]

I think it's exciting to think the Nords might be back in the NHL in 2015.

[Lester]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/03/01/coyotes-bonds-on-old-Goldwater-info.html

hot off the press...

Phoenix Coyotes bonds on hold, Goldwater wants documents


The city of Glendale’s $100 million bond sale to help Chicago investment executive Matthew Hulsizer buy the Phoenix Coyotes (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/az/glendale/phoenix_coyotes_hockey_club/2494658/) hockey team is on hold as the Goldwater Institute said today it wants additional city documents related to the deal.
An official familiar with Goldwater’s request said the watchdog group wants more information from Glendale before making a decision about a possible lawsuit challenging the deal. That official said Goldwater wants to see as many as 250 pages of additional data.

[jaydub74]

Man, I can't wait till this thing is absolutely 100% a done deal.

Agreed, so in two or three years we can go through it all again. This franchise will fail and be moved, its only a matter of time.

[fokkerfan]

So if I have this straight, the bond issue is based on being repaid by parking revenues that they don't currently charge for? They can do as many studies as they want but how can anyone possibly know the answer? Remember when Calgary started to charge for parking at the C*train stations? Seems like a flawed investment strategy to me. Does anyone have a link to the study results indicating what they expect to recoup per game in parking revenues?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

So if I have this straight, the bond issue is based on being repaid by parking revenues that they don't currently charge for? They can do as many studies as they want but how can anyone possibly know the answer? Remember when Calgary started to charge for parking at the C*train stations? Seems like a flawed investment strategy to me. Does anyone have a link to the study results indicating what they expect to recoup per game in parking revenues?

They have 5,500 parking stalls. In order to recoup their investment (break even) with the bonds being sold at 5% (they're currently at 8%) they need to charge $13 per car and have it full every game. This is right in the study.

Keep in mind that a 5-minute walk away is University of Phoenix Stadium with probably 15,000 parking stalls still available for free.

[fokkerfan]

This is my point, I doubt they will sell every stall. Especially if it's free to park close by. Who would mind the walk in Phoenix where the weather is much different than up north! I'm beginning to wonder if this arena and area development should have ever been completed. If all the area businesses are going to fail because the Coyotes leave town and they lose potential revenue from 41 evenings. Good Luck Gongdale!

[Cowperson]

They have 5,500 parking stalls. In order to recoup their investment (break even) with the bonds being sold at 5% (they're currently at 8%) they need to charge $13 per car and have it full every game. This is right in the study.



Right now a 30 year USA Treasury bond is yielding about 4.75%. That's the risk free rate of return for that term. They print the money and they have the power of taxation.

The average muncipal bond in the USA is yielding about 4.75% according to Bloomberg. They have the power of taxation.

Microsoft and Wal-Mart 30 year corporate bonds are about 5.5%.

So, if the Glendale bonds have moved from 5% to 8% to attract interest that does speak to a market demanding a risk premium be placed on the economics of this issue.

As noted before, timing might be a problem for Glendale in that the entire USA municipal bond market is under some pressure in 2011 with successful financings so far in 2011 at the lowest level since 2000.

So, it may have something to do with the issue in particular but also has something to do with the entire climate for this kind of thing.

If you're opposed to this happening, then a jump in the rate they have to pay to attract money would have to be interpreted as a happy event.

And we continue to sit back with popcorn while watching with interest (pun).

Cowperson

[valo403]

Agreed, so in two or three years we can go through it all again. This franchise will fail and be moved, its only a matter of time.

We're talking about when it has to leave Winnipeg here right? :bag:

[PegCityFlamesFan]

This conversation isn't complete without Valo's useless input. You don't like Winnipeg we get it.

[Northendzone]

article on slam sports (www.slam.ca) that indicates that Hulzier wants to know if Goldwater is going to sue or what so he can make final plans.

article mentions other teams for sale - makes me wonder if he would be interested in a more successful franchise like dallas if he had to pay real money.

i wonder if/when the nhl is going to say enough is enough!!!

[fokkerfan]

lots of interesting comments to read after the article:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/01/20110301phoenix-coyotes-buyer-glendale-goldwater-lawsuit-threat.html

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

article on slam sports (www.slam.ca (http://www.slam.ca)) that indicates that Hulzier wants to know if Goldwater is going to sue or what so he can make final plans.

article mentions other teams for sale - makes me wonder if he would be interested in a more successful franchise like dallas if he had to pay real money.

i wonder if/when the nhl is going to say enough is enough!!!

It should be noted that article was based on complete speculation from a column in the Phoenix Business Journal.

[valo403]

This conversation isn't complete without Valo's useless input. You don't like Winnipeg we get it.

:whaa:

My only issue with Winnipeg is people like you who lack a sense of humor about the whole thing.

[sureLoss]

ESPN reporting that Glendale is about to sue the Blackwater Institute:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6185492

The City of Glendale, faced with what they estimate will be more than a half-billion dollars in lost revenue, taxes and jobs if the Phoenix Coyotes (http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-coyotes) relocate, is expected to file suit Monday against the Goldwater Institute and specific members of the public watchdog's board, multiples sources told ESPN.com Saturday.


The lawsuit is expected to allege the Goldwater Institute was guilty of a legal form of interference when the institute reached out to potential buyers of municipal bonds, the sale of which are crucial to the City of Glendale's new lease agreement with Chicago businessman Matthew Hulsizer, and warned them off purchasing the bonds.

...
If the municipal bonds are not sold, multiple sources have told ESPN.com that the lease agreement cannot be finalized and the sale of the team to Hulsizer by the National Hockey League will fall apart.

[Lester]

ROFL

this is desperation of the highest order.

[Lester]

the more i think about it, with the damages being so high i think this is end game.

this is it.

if GWI doesn't back off, and this goes to court.. the bonds WONT sell, and the NHL wont allow the sale to go thru. lawsuits take years/months. the league will move the coyotes to winnipeg by months end or maybe even weeks end.

if GWI backs off, it allows the sale to go thru.

maybe trout can comment but this seems like the last card in the deck for glendale... this move either works for them or they try and recoup team losses thru GWI.

[troutman]

I don't understand why Hulsizer can't buy the team without a subsidy from Glendale

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/clock-ticking-nhl-pushing-bonds-117457748.html

Hulsizer also said on air: "We're prepared to close, but we'd really like to do it by saving the city some money. This deal is going to close." That lends credence to further suggestions from sources who say that before this deal reaches an endgame with the NHL, the would-be owner will be asked to top up the transaction -- possibly the shortfall in bond sales -- with his own capital.

If that's within a matter of a few days, then Hulsizer will be meeting again soon with his investors' group (they huddled last weekend) to decide to close or abandon the effort.


http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/01/20110301phoenix-coyotes-buyer-glendale-goldwater-lawsuit-threat.html

She said Glendale has "unlimited options" to avoid a Goldwater lawsuit. "For instance, Hulsizer could get a private loan to buy this team like most businesses do," she said. "They finance their investments not on the backs of taxpayers but take the risk privately where it belongs."



No one, lawyers included, can predict what will happen, but I think we will have an answer this week.

[Lester]

Why would he want to? It's a money pit

I agree tho. Next week is end game. Lawsuit will be threatened on Monday, and I think by Wednesday or so GWI will have an answer. If they refuse to step down, the Coyote experiment is over. If they step down, it's on to Atlanta for the Thrashers.

[Parallex]

The lawsuit is expected to allege the Goldwater Institute was guilty of a legal form of interference when the institute reached out to potential buyers of municipal bonds, the sale of which are crucial to the City of Glendale's new lease agreement with Chicago businessman Matthew Hulsizer, and warned them off purchasing the bonds.

?

So does that make any financial adviser/talking-head that recommends anyone not buy any particular stock or bond liable for damages? Barring some information that hasn't been made public seems pretty flimsy/frivolous to me (more like an intimidation tactic actually).

[troutman]

CBC Hot Stove:

This thing is almost toast.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I say Goldwater backs down by Tuesday and the Coyotes are sold to Hulsizer by Friday or next Monday.

[Lester]

I say Goldwater backs down by Tuesday and the Coyotes are sold to Hulsizer by Friday or next Monday.

I would hope GWI doesn't give in to strong arm tactics like this.What they're doing is legal.

[afc wimbledon]

I say Goldwater backs down by Tuesday and the Coyotes are sold to Hulsizer by Friday or next Monday.

I think GI will nulify the threat by announcing it believes the deal is illeagal and so will be suing, I suspect the fact that the city is talking about suing the GI's executive, some of the richest most right wing families in the state, will backfire.

[Cowperson]

the more i think about it, with the damages being so high i think this is end game.

this is it.

if GWI doesn't back off, and this goes to court.. the bonds WONT sell, and the NHL wont allow the sale to go thru. lawsuits take years/months. the league will move the coyotes to winnipeg by months end or maybe even weeks end.

if GWI backs off, it allows the sale to go thru.

maybe trout can comment but this seems like the last card in the deck for glendale... this move either works for them or they try and recoup team losses thru GWI.

Just a guess, but the basis of the suit would probably the "tortious interference" complaint Glendale was thought to be contemplating against Jim Balsillie . . . . . but likely now directed at Goldwater and specific individuals within that group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

I would say Goldwater and its principals, who like to boast they've been sued before, had better be right about the alleged illegality of this deal and need to hope they were careful in what they've said privately and publicly about this.

It's probable this deal would have closed at an interest rate of 5% or 6% without Goldwater's interference . . . but if the deal is now commanding a risk premium over those rates - rumoured to be 8% to 9% now, essentially making the economics somewhat untenable (although less than $3 million per year over 30 years) - simply because of the moral suasion brought forward by Goldwater . . . . . well, it does look like they may have interfered.

But were they on the right side of the line?

Mayor Scruggs of Glendale a few days ago accused Goldwater of "significantly hindering" the sale of the bonds.

That's probably why Goldwater and its principals have apparently been careful not to publicly say they will or will not sue. But we can't know what they said to potential buyers of the bonds when they contacted them directly, which I seem to remember happening.

Saying something is a crappy investment is different than telling a potential buyer you'll sue if they buy the issue.

As before, tortious interference will be laughed at by the Calgarypuck legal team as a rarely enforced occurrence.

Still . . . . . we are sitting in the peanut gallery and can contemplate stuff as we wish.

I will put my Monopoly Money on this particular play and, to be perfectly honest, I hope this whole thing never goes away. It's endlessly entertaining.

Cowperson

[tjinaz]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6185492

Its put up or shut up for GWI. Appears their board will have skin in the game now. Plus the have the Diamondbacks angle with the board member being married to a owner. I think Sidney's hat has the correct call. GWI will politely and grudgingly back down.

I think GI will nulify the threat by announcing it believes the deal is illeagal and so will be suing, I suspect the fact that the city is talking about suing the GI's executive, some of the richest most right wing families in the state, will backfire. Everyone is a hero when they are not risking anything of their own. By naming the board itself they are significantly upping the stakes. Its fine and dandy to go up against attorneys that work for municipalities and government for "the good of the people" but if you think for a minute the board will risk their personal assets against the collection of sharks Hulisizer will bring to bear you are sadly mistaken. I think the GWI board is on a conference call right now that began with the words "H0ly Sh$T!".

The other angle is that of public perception. GWI bills itself as a "advocacy" group. They risk being losing any status they have as the good guys with the mere inference of conflict of interest as one of their board members is married to an owner of the Diamondbacks that coincidentally got public funding for their stadium. They stand to benefit by eliminating a competitor for the sports dollar in the local market. The press and other business leaders have already come out in favor of the city of Glendale and this is just another turn of the ratchet. Even if GWI wins, they lose in the court of public opinion and that is the domain where they really need to be seen in a positive light.

[Resolute 14]

I think a hilarious ending to this would be for the Coyotes to move to Houston (just to piss off the Jetsowners), and for Glendale to successfully sue Goldwater for enough money to pay off the arena. End result would be that the city would have a debt-free building and not require public funds to get to that point. Would that then become a win or a loss for Goldwater? ;)

[tjinaz]

I will put my Monopoly Money on this particular play and, to be perfectly honest, I hope this whole thing never goes away. It's endlessly entertaining.

Cowperson

This is soooooo much better than the end of BSG. You just can't make this stuff up.

[Ducay]

I just don't get how this deal is at all legal. Looks like he is almost being paid to buy the team; something just doesn't sit right with me.

Why not let Balsille buy it for something ridiculous (say $300M). He pays off the arena, Glendale and the NHL. Have a clause where he has to keep the team in Glendale for 5-years or something. Coyotes get 5 years to turn things around, and even if not, everyone comes away happy.

[taxbuster]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=6185492

Everyone is a hero when they are not risking anything of their own. By naming the board itself they are significantly upping the stakes. Its fine and dandy to go up against attorneys that work for municipalities and government for "the good of the people" but if you think for a minute the board will risk their personal assets against the collection of sharks Hulisizer will bring to bear you are sadly mistaken.

My bet is that is quite unlikely. These folks are neither neophytes, nor stupid - and they have attorneys of their own. One can 'name' anyone in a lawsuit one wishes. Keeping them named on the suit is an entirely different matter. Unless one can show why the individual named is not acting properly in his/her capacity as (say) a board member, their personal assets are safe. No different there than here. Only if the individual acts outside of such capacity would they have engaged in some form of tortious conduct.

If the City of Glendale has acted in a manner that is (ultimately) found to be illegal, ALL aspects of the deal, including the poison pill, are likely to be struck by the courts.

I would also expect that an organization of that sort (GI) carries significant D&O insurance just to cover such a risk. Operating in a public policy venue would be recognizable as a significant area of risk and would undoubtedly be insured. (Their insurers, however, may be none too pleased....)

[taxbuster]

I just don't get how this deal is at all legal. Looks like he is almost being paid to buy the team; something just doesn't sit right with me.

Why not let Balsille buy it for something ridiculous (say $300M). He pays off the arena, Glendale and the NHL. Have a clause where he has to keep the team in Glendale for 5-years or something. Coyotes get 5 years to turn things around, and even if not, everyone comes away happy.

Because Gary Bettman would then look like the proverbial horse's rear end. And that he will not allow to happen.

[tjinaz]

My bet is that is quite unlikely. These folks are neither neophytes, nor stupid - and they have attorneys of their own. One can 'name' anyone in a lawsuit one wishes. Keeping them named on the suit is an entirely different matter. Unless one can show why the individual named is not acting properly in his/her capacity as (say) a board member, their personal assets are safe. No different there than here. Only if the individual acts outside of such capacity would they have engaged in some form of tortious conduct.
I think that is the basis of the claim. By taking no action but claiming they might they are damaging COG and through this action they have a board member that stands directly to gain. The other battle in the court of public opinion will hurt GWI where it hurts in the donations and fundraising. I don't think Glendale will press the claim, what they want is a declaration one way or another on a position so they can get the bonds sold. I would not be surprised if all of the sudden Hulsizer comes in with an additional 30m or so and drops the debt to 70 and then both sides (COG and GWI) declare victory.

[Lester]

if GWI takes their time in responding, that will only make things worse for the NHL and CoG. There's no official drop dead date but this wont help the bonds interest rate, and the NHL sure as hell is aware they have a time frame to get the team to Winnipeg. They aren't going to pay the bills for the Coyotes for whole second season.

Also, i wonder is this the CoG trying to cover the cities asses? If they lose the Coyotes, they could be doing this to try and win back some money for the city. This could be a white flag from the city

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I think that is the basis of the claim. By taking no action but claiming they might they are damaging COG and through this action they have a board member that stands directly to gain. The other battle in the court of public opinion will hurt GWI where it hurts in the donations and fundraising. I don't think Glendale will press the claim, what they want is a declaration one way or another on a position so they can get the bonds sold. I would not be surprised if all of the sudden Hulsizer comes in with an additional 30m or so and drops the debt to 70 and then both sides (COG and GWI) declare victory.

It should be noted the purchase price is now $210 so Hulsizer is already putting in an additional $40 million.

[Jets4Life]

It should be noted the purchase price is now $210 so Hulsizer is already putting in an additional $40 million.

source?

[Jordan!]

I would hope GWI doesn't give in to strong arm tactics like this.What they're doing is legal.

Except it's not illegal and who's strong arming who here??

What's interesting here is that Ken Kendricks (Diamondbacks) owner's wife is on the Board at Goldwater, potential conflict of interest suit.

GWI will bail..

[Lester]

wait what? i said what they're doing is legal.

this is a bully tactic, a pressure tactic. if you support the yotes and want them in phoenix or not this is like sending hired goons to someones house to get them to play ball

[transplant99]

wait what? i said what they're doing is legal.

this is a bully tactic, a pressure tactic. if you support the yotes and want them in phoenix or not this is like sending hired goons to someones house to get them to play ball


Pretty common in large business transactions. Normal operating procedure actually.

No different that Ballsillie's failed power play last year and certainly completely legal.

[Resolute 14]

Because Gary Bettman would then look like the proverbial horse's rear end. And that he will not allow to happen.

No, because Balsillie spent several years making himself look like the proverbial horse's rear end, and is reaping the reward of his actions. Namely, he's not likely to ever own an NHL team. I kind of wanted him to succeed, if only for the entertainment value of having a renegade owner on the Maple Leafs' doorstep, but his actions in the Coyotes thing was something the NHL was obligated to fight, as the consequences of not doing so would have far, far exceeded the Coyotes moving to Hamilton.

[valo403]

wait what? i said what they're doing is legal.

this is a bully tactic, a pressure tactic. if you support the yotes and want them in phoenix or not this is like sending hired goons to someones house to get them to play ball

And yet we've seen no sense of outrage from you when GWI engages in similar tactics...

[Lester]

that statement is so laughable I wont bother giving you any kind of response.

[Resolute 14]

What's laughable is your feeble attempt to avoid admitting that Valo has a valid point.

[taxbuster]

No, because Balsillie spent several years making himself look like the proverbial horse's rear end, and is reaping the reward of his actions. Namely, he's not likely to ever own an NHL team. I kind of wanted him to succeed, if only for the entertainment value of having a renegade owner on the Maple Leafs' doorstep, but his actions in the Coyotes thing was something the NHL was obligated to fight, as the consequences of not doing so would have far, far exceeded the Coyotes moving to Hamilton.

LOL - well, that is ALSO true....

[taxbuster]

The argument that one of the GI board members stands to gain does not hold up in terms of an action against ALL GI board members. Just against that one, unless the others can be shown to be acting in collusion (unlikely).

The fact is that this is a bad deal for the taxpayers from the get-go; the taxpayers in Glendale *should* be suing their city for the funding of an arena that had no expectation of profitability. With only one major tenant and little other use, the city left itself hugely exposed. Now they (and their taxpayers) are reaping the rewards of such a choice.

I'd buy a team, too, if the taxpayers of a city would finance me.

I'm surprised, so far, that no-one has taken city (or province, state or country) officials to court for making fiduciarily inept and indefensible decisions. A good decision that goes bad is one thing - a decision that was provably bad from the get-go is quite another....

(Given that I'm in the tax business, one of the interesting things is when CRA tries to second-guess a taxpayer's legitimate - but wrong - business decision and then denies a loss based on hindsight. It always fails for them. And so it should for Glendale, whose decision I find hard to qualify as 'legitimate'.)

[valo403]

The argument that one of the GI board members stands to gain does not hold up in terms of an action against ALL GI board members. Just against that one, unless the others can be shown to be acting in collusion (unlikely).

The fact is that this is a bad deal for the taxpayers from the get-go; the taxpayers in Glendale *should* be suing their city for the funding of an arena that had no expectation of profitability. With only one major tenant and little other use, the city left itself hugely exposed. Now they (and their taxpayers) are reaping the rewards of such a choice.

I'd buy a team, too, if the taxpayers of a city would finance me.

I'm surprised, so far, that no-one has taken city (or province, state or country) officials to court for making fiduciarily inept and indefensible decisions. A good decision that goes bad is one thing - a decision that was provably bad from the get-go is quite another....

(Given that I'm in the tax business, one of the interesting things is when CRA tries to second-guess a taxpayer's legitimate - but wrong - business decision and then denies a loss based on hindsight. It always fails for them. And so it should for Glendale, whose decision I find hard to qualify as 'legitimate'.)

What decision are you talking about here? The initial construction of the arena and related developments?

[Lester]

What's laughable is your feeble attempt to avoid admitting that Valo has a valid point.

No he really doesn't. GWI has done nothing to bully anyone. They're a non profit agency with no agenda here other than to protect the tax payers from politicians who want to rip them off.

[カナダ人です]

Did the NHL/Bettman work this hard to keep the Jets in Winnipeg? All I remember is the "Save the Jets" campaign, but I think that was a fan-based initiative.

Honestly, I don't remember.

[valo403]

No he really doesn't. GWI has done nothing to bully anyone. They're a non profit agency with no agenda here other than to protect the tax payers from politicians who want to rip them off.

So let's get this straight.

Goldwater threatens to sue = Not bullying

Glendale threatens to sue = Bullying

Yep, that makes sense :rolleyes:

[taxbuster]

What decision are you talking about here? The initial construction of the arena and related developments?

Yup.

As far as I can recall or tell, their failure to attract more than one significant use of the arena is the issue. Now one has to look back (there's that hindsight thing again) and determine whether, right at the start, that was foreseeable. If so - Glendale may have a problem. If not, then fine - it's just another bad business decision.

This ties into the GI's argument now: it is foreseeable that the potential for not being repaid is high - or at least substantial. That is an irresponsible use of taxpayer money (so their argument goes) and as fiduciary trustees of that the CofG should cease and desist. That there is a financial penalty to doing so MAY be dispensable by the courts if such an argument is held to be true as it could be viewed as a coercive venture.

There's a LOT of thorny law here - and quite different than a similar action in Canada. The GI has no obligation to 'disclose' whether they intend to sue; it might be 'kind' to do so, but they are under no obligation to do so.

Again, I'd be willing to bet that even if Hulsizer get his deal he'll be screaming for assistance, moving or some such in the not-too-distant future.

If I were an NHL owner I'd finally get off my duff, whack GB on the back and say - end this and let's get this franchise moved somewhere it stops sucking money from us - and maybe starts to send some back the other way! (But I don't think they're going to do that -- they still seem to think that GB and his 'cost certainty' is their saviour.)

[taxbuster]

So let's get this straight.

Goldwater threatens to sue = Not bullying

Glendale threatens to sue = Bullying

Yep, that makes sense :rolleyes:


Irrelevant in both constructs.

[valo403]

Irrelevant in both constructs.

Huh?

[moon]

If I were an NHL owner I'd finally get off my duff, whack GB on the back and say - end this and let's get this franchise moved somewhere it stops sucking money from us - and maybe starts to send some back the other way! (But I don't think they're going to do that -- they still seem to think that GB and his 'cost certainty' is their saviour.)

Where is that mythical place?

There is nowhere that is going to come close to making money like that except a 2nd team in TO.

If it was that easy to get a situation like that teams would already be there.

[Joborule]

I'm pretty sure Lester is theonlywhiteout. If it doesn't work in favor for the Jets/works in favour of Coyotes, it's bad optics.

[valo403]

Yup.

As far as I can recall or tell, their failure to attract more than one significant use of the arena is the issue. Now one has to look back (there's that hindsight thing again) and determine whether, right at the start, that was foreseeable. If so - Glendale may have a problem. If not, then fine - it's just another bad business decision.

This ties into the GI's argument now: it is foreseeable that the potential for not being repaid is high - or at least substantial. That is an irresponsible use of taxpayer money (so their argument goes) and as fiduciary trustees of that the CofG should cease and desist. That there is a financial penalty to doing so MAY be dispensable by the courts if such an argument is held to be true as it could be viewed as a coercive venture.

There's a LOT of thorny law here - and quite different than a similar action in Canada. The GI has no obligation to 'disclose' whether they intend to sue; it might be 'kind' to do so, but they are under no obligation to do so.

Again, I'd be willing to bet that even if Hulsizer get his deal he'll be screaming for assistance, moving or some such in the not-too-distant future.

If I were an NHL owner I'd finally get off my duff, whack GB on the back and say - end this and let's get this franchise moved somewhere it stops sucking money from us - and maybe starts to send some back the other way! (But I don't think they're going to do that -- they still seem to think that GB and his 'cost certainty' is their saviour.)

The arena was built as part of a massive development, the type that sprung up all over markets in places like Arizona and Florida when everyone was convinced that the money would never run out. Was it a good decision? Well evidently not, but there is absolutely no way that it is actionable.

[taxbuster]

Where is that mythical place?

There is nowhere that is going to come close to making money like that except a 2nd team in TO.

If it was that easy to get a situation like that teams would already be there.

Well that gets into the business of the NHL. Some would say there are already too many teams. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, while there are buyers lining up in Winnipeg and Quebec (and maybe elsewhere), clearly they believe they can not only carry the cost, but make money. And that would mean money going back to the other owners, too.

Wasn't it PT Barnum who said "There's a sucker born every minute."?

But - some of those "suckers" have bet on weirder things and made an awful lot of dough.

[taxbuster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxbuster http://forum.calgarypuck.com/images/calpuck/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?p=3000426#post3000426)
Irrelevant in both constructs.

Huh?

Bullying or not - the issue is completely irrelevant to the discussion. This will be a legal issue, not a muscle one. So whether one side or the other, or both are attempting bullying simply doesn't matter.

(And yes, I do get your point.)

[mikephoen]

No he really doesn't. GWI has done nothing to bully anyone. They're a non profit agency with no agenda here other than to protect the tax payers from politicians who want to rip them off.

Everyone has an agenda.

[valo403]

Bullying or not - the issue is completely irrelevant to the discussion. This will be a legal issue, not a muscle one. So whether one side or the other, or both are attempting bullying simply doesn't matter.

(And yes, I do get your point.)

I don't know about that, it could very well turn into a legal issue but at this point muscle is very much in play. Both parties are attempting to 'muscle' their way into getting this deal done/killed, the threat of it turning into a legal battle is likely a result that neither party actually wants to come to fruition. There's an element of 'who will blink first' to this whole thing, it really only becomes a legal battle if both parties hold strong.

[taxbuster]

I don't know about that, it could very well turn into a legal issue but at this point muscle is very much in play. Both parties are attempting to 'muscle' their way into getting this deal done/killed, the threat of it turning into a legal battle is likely a result that neither party actually wants to come to fruition. There's an element of 'who will blink first' to this whole thing, it really only becomes a legal battle if both parties hold strong.

I wonder though, if the old thing about a weak argument provoking a strong response hods here. If CofG's argument is weak, they'll try to bully (to use that expression) GI into blinking. I'd think more that way than GI trying to bully CofG - as the city would simply tell 'em to **** off and do their worst.

The fact that the city has 'negotiated' (or whatever it was -- discussed?) the issue with GI makes me wonder if the city's case is not strong.

Whichever - fun to watch!!

[valo403]

I wonder though, if the old thing about a weak argument provoking a strong response hods here. If CofG's argument is weak, they'll try to bully (to use that expression) GI into blinking. I'd think more that way than GI trying to bully CofG - as the city would simply tell 'em to **** off and do their worst.

The fact that the city has 'negotiated' (or whatever it was -- discussed?) the issue with GI makes me wonder if the city's case is not strong.

Whichever - fun to watch!!

I think Glendale's negotiating had more to do with speeding up the process and preventing negative impacts on the bond pricing than the strength of their argument, but who knows.

And you're right, it certainly is fun to watch.

[afc wimbledon]

I supect the problem for the city is the GI is a reletively poor (700k) organization made up largely of lawyers, it therefore costs the GI relatively little to fight a lawsuit, they don't have enough assets to cover the cities costs, let alone any awards.
If they lose they declare chapter 11 and close down, all of the players will move on to or found other right wing think tanks and their work continues.

[valo403]

I supect the problem for the city is the GI is a reletively poor (700k) organization made up largely of lawyers, it therefore costs the GI relatively little to fight a lawsuit, they don't have enough assets to cover the cities costs, let alone any awards.
If they lose they declare chapter 11 and close down, all of the players will move on to or found other right wing think tanks and their work continues.

Hence the inclusion of Goldwater members personally, putting their assets on the line as opposed to just those of Goldwater.

[afc wimbledon]

Hence the inclusion of Goldwater members personally, putting their assets on the line as opposed to just those of Goldwater.

I realise that but I doubt that dog will hunt, call me a cynic but I can't see to many judges wanting to screw over their friends, major contributors and fellow country club members.

[valo403]

I realise that but I doubt that dog will hunt, call me a cynic but I can't see to many judges wanting to screw over their friends, major contributors and fellow country club members.

I think you have a pretty inaccurate view of the legal system.

[Lester]

The burden of proof for CoG to sue them and win is immense. I dont think CGI is concerned, nor the members named. It's a desperation hail mary tactic.

[afc wimbledon]

I think you have a pretty inaccurate view of the legal system.

Maybe, but we arn't talking the legal system, we are talking Arizona Politics

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

source?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2011/03/06/20110306coyotes-sale-price-rises-make-up-losses.html#ixzz1FnXKL4lZ

[troutman]

Hence the inclusion of Goldwater members personally, putting their assets on the line as opposed to just those of Goldwater.

Glendale City councillors can be sued personally too. This could get real nasty.

[tjinaz]

For $500mil against GWI.

Interesting that GWI actually sent letters to brokerage houses.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/06/20110306glendale-coyotes-goldwater-suit0306.html

[automaton 3]

The City of Glendale's actions through this mess have IMO contained elements of both intransigence and randomness, for lack of better terms.

This threat of this particular lawsuit looks like a hail mary. How launching such an action helps their current project is beyond me. Do they hope that Goldwater will immediately throw in the towel and whimper off? An unlikely result from what we've seen so far.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Glendale City councillors can be sued personally too. This could get real nasty.

It can't really get nasty. The team will be in Winnipeg before the middle of next week if this thing gets off the ground. I don't see that as a probable outcome.

From what I'm hearing, the NHL is trying to find two or three investors to purchase the $116 million in bonds at the current interest rate (8%). If/when Goldwater backs down from their position that will get much easier (and the interest rate may even drop).

However, I'm also hearing that there may be investors interested either way (Daly is going hard on this) and once the bonds are purchased the lawsuit is meaningless unless Glendale decides to alter it to collect the extra interest they will have to pay. I don't think that they'll do that as they're already involved in one lawsuit with Goldwater and don't want another. Nor do they want to potentially expose the illegality of their deal and perhaps risk blowing the whole thing up.

[troutman]

For $500mil against GWI.

Interesting that GWI actually sent letters to brokerage houses.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/06/20110306glendale-coyotes-goldwater-suit0306.html

The city is expected to sue for significant damages, a source close to the deal said, potentially as much as $500 million, the amount of economic impact Glendale estimates it would lose if the NHL team left for Canada. It could name members of the Goldwater board individually.

Such claims are dubious. I think Winnipeg discovered the economic impact of the Jets leaving was minimal. Entertainment $/taxes/jobs just get shifted elsewhere in the community.

[Resolute 14]

Did the NHL/Bettman work this hard to keep the Jets in Winnipeg? All I remember is the "Save the Jets" campaign, but I think that was a fan-based initiative.

Honestly, I don't remember.

Shenkarow made it clear around 1993 or 1994 that he wanted out, and the league spent two years trying to help find a new owner. When a first bid to buy the team in 1994 failed, the team actually nearly moved to Minnesota for 1994-95, but instead stuck around in time for the Spirit of Manitoba bid to attempt, and fail, to land the team. Finally, it was sold to Phoenix interests.

Overall, the league did not work as hard as it did in the 2000s for Pittsburgh, Nashville, Phoenix, etc, and I recall Bettman in the past admitting that as a consequence of the 90s relocations, the league has made retaining existing markets a much greater priority in these cases.

[Resolute 14]

The city is expected to sue for significant damages, a source close to the deal said, potentially as much as $500 million, the amount of economic impact Glendale estimates it would lose if the NHL team left for Canada. It could name members of the Goldwater board individually.

Such claims are dubious. I think Winnipeg discovered the economic impact of the Jets leaving was minimal. Entertainment $/taxes/jobs just get shifted elsewhere in the community.


Sure, except that Glendale would be left with a lot of debt on an arena and no real way to pay it down without a major tenant, so there does appear to be legitimate damages for the city if the team leaves.

[Cowperson]

The lawsuit would revolve around Goldwater attorney Carrie Ann Sitren's letters to bond rating agencies and underwriters in January notifying them that Goldwater was looking into potential litigation to block the city's agreement, sources knowledgeable about the deal said.

The letters said Goldwater had not made a final decision but that Glendale's deal could amount to an illegal government subsidy of private business.

Glendale is expected to argue the letters represented an unlawful interference in the business affairs of the city, also known as tortious interference.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/06/20110306glendale-coyotes-goldwater-suit0306.html

Wooot!!!!

Hit the nail right on the head with tortius Interference.

I love when that happens.

Interesting its the same hammer = tortious interference - Glendale was going to use on Jim Balsillie and now they're pulling it out once again.

Tortious interference with business relationships occurs where the tortfeasor acts to prevent the plaintiff (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/wiki/Plaintiff) from successfully establishing or maintaining business relationships. This tort may occur when a first party's conduct intentionally causes a second party not to enter into a business relationship with a third party that otherwise would probably have occurred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

Publicly saying you think a deal is crappy - which is the right of anyone - is a different thing than Goldwater's rather deliberate and direct threats aimed at influencing potential buyers.

Did they go too far?

There's a lot on the line for Goldwater and its principal partners. I would find it pretty unlikely the primary people at Goldwater are actually insured against loss for this kind of thing. They are, after all, an agency that goes out of its way to look for trouble, actively suing institutions and expecting to be counter-sued. Not many insurance companies would logically want to be a part of that. I would think but just guessing.

Love it.

Cowperson

[troutman]

Sure, except that Glendale would be left with a lot of debt on an arena and no real way to pay it down without a major tenant, so there does appear to be legitimate damages for the city if the team leaves.

The argument would be that is their own fault. Not a wise idea to build an arena in suburban Phoenix, and expect pro hockey will fill the seats.

Also, could they not mitigate damages by attracting other tenants? An AHL team, NCAA, the Suns, concerts etc.

Cowperson could speak better to this - economic damages are difficult to estimate, if they even exist at all.

Here Coyote staffers and Glendale businessmen speak about the importance of the Coyotes:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/04/20110304phoenix-coyotes-deal-glendale-press-conference.html

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/03/20110303glendale-coyotes-arena0303.html

The lawsuit:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/03/06/20110306glendale-coyotes-goldwater-suit0306.html

Glendale is expected to argue the letters represented an unlawful interference in the business affairs of the city, also known as tortious interference.

If a suit went forward, Goldwater might argue its right to free speech protects its actions, sources said.

The city has been at odds with Goldwater for close to two years. Goldwater sued Glendale in 2009, after the city began negotiating with potential buyers of the then-bankrupt team, to gain access to public records of those discussions. That lawsuit is ongoing.

Can the NHL await further litigation that can drag on for years? For immediate progress, GWI must back down, Hulsizer must buy the team privately with his own financing, or a Judge must quickly render a decision on the issue of the legality of the bonds.

[troutman]

The Free Press is advising WIN to temper expectations:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/death-watch-117507898.html

There will not be any announcement at Portage and Main this week to reveal news that the NHL is returning to Winnipeg.

If you're hoping for that — stop. You'll only be disappointed.

There is, however, a chance that the NHL will determine it has exhausted all avenues to keep the Phoenix Coyotes in Arizona and begin to look at other options.

Lawsuits are beginning to stack up while Bettman spins his Rolodex looking for risk-taking financiers. Media across the country are split on the issue -- some say Bettman will get a deal in Arizona while others say he's already looking for an exit strategy.

The next 48 hours should be telling.

No one can say for certain how this will all end but thankfully for all involved, and that includes Winnipeg hockey fans, resolution appears imminent.

One way or another.

[troutman]

Brunt on Monday:

Are Winnipeg’s NHL prayers about to be answered?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/are-winnipegs-nhl-prayers-about-to-be-answered/article1931713/

The Glendale politicians, who must be right up there with the most obtuse in North America, opted to gamble that there would be no 11th-hour intervention. They had legal opinions to back up their claim that the arrangement with Hulsizer was legal, although if you read the actual bond offering, you learn that those opinions are predicated on the veracity of consultants’ reports about potential parking revenues. But the politicians’ core belief must have been that when push came to shove and a deal seemed imminent, Goldwater would simply walk away.

That’s a bad bet to make when you’re playing against zealots.

So all that’s left is the bleating, and some fabricated estimates of the economic impact of losing the Coyotes. ($500-million? Come on. Even the folks in the business of spinning crazy numbers to try to justify crazy public investment in sport with bogus multiplier effects would have a hard time coming up with a number like that based on a hockey team that plays 41 sparsely attended regular-season home games a year.)

The lawsuit, if it is indeed ever filed, is going to take time, and it’s going to be messy, and neither time nor mess are things the NHL governors can tolerate any longer without having to again reach into their own pockets. So anywhere NHL hockey was being played this past weekend, the chatter among reporters and agents and team officials was that the announcement of the Coyotes’ relocation to Winnipeg was both inevitable and imminent.

(The NHL jumped through hoops to block a guy who would have overpaid for the Coyotes (or the Predators, or the Pens) and written Glendale a cheque for $50-million)

[troutman]

Is Winnipeg a viable NHL market?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/is-winnipeg-a-viable-nhl-market/article1932402/

ROY MACGREGOR
Of course it will work.

ALLAN MAKI
Winnipeg may have issues long-term

ERIC DUHATSCHEK
Winnipeg is well-positioned now to survive and even succeed in the NHL, but much of its long-term viability will depend upon two factors [CDN $, CBA]

SEAN GORDON
Tough for Winnipeg to make a go of it over a 20-year horizon

DAVID SHOALTS
At this point, the best you can say is Winnipeg will be a better NHL market than Phoenix or Atlanta. The long-term prospects are rather blurry for several reasons . . . Thus it comes down to the willingness of the owners to write cheques every year to pay for the losses rather than try to squeeze it out of the local yokels. Here is where Winnipeg has it all over a lot of NHL cities, so in the end I must agree, it will work as an NHL market.

[troutman]

Let's see what people are saying today.

Matthew Hulsizer running out of patience with Coyotes
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/matthew-hulsizer-running-out-of-patience-with-coyotes/article1933174/

The city of Glendale, Ariz., has decided not to take any legal action against the Goldwater Institute for now, according to a source, but Matthew Hulsizer says other NHL (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/matthew-hulsizer-running-out-of-patience-with-coyotes/article1933174/#) teams are beckoning and he cannot wait much longer to complete his purchase of the Phoenix Coyotes.

“We have been approached by other teams, yes,” Hulsizer said, adding that he is not pursuing that interest “right now because we love Arizona.”

However, even though the NHL has not put a squeeze on the sale by imposing a deadline, Hulsizer said he needs to have the municipal bonds on the market soon.

Some NHL governors said in an informal survey that the NHL could wait as long as its entry draft on June 24 and 25 before deciding to leave Phoenix in order to facilitate a move for next season. But Hulsizer is not prepared to wait that long.

Some close to the situation feel that if Glendale proceeds with legal action against Goldwater it will set off a legal battle that would doom any hope of keeping the Coyotes in Arizona. “If they file, bring in the moving vans,” one source said

There are signs the NHL is looking at Winnipeg. A report by CBC.ca said the league commissioned studies of the Winnipeg market that estimated a team in the MTS Centre, which seats 15,015 people, would bring in around $70-million in a season, which is about double what the Coyotes earn at Jobing.com Arena. However, the report said this would be the lowest revenue of the six current Canadian teams.

[troutman]

Bettman, Daly headed to Phoenix
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Bettman-Daly-headed-to-Phoenix-117582273.html

It is unknown whether the two are heading to try and make a last-ditch effort to save the Phoenix Coyotes or to inform the City of Glendale the NHL will begin exploring other options for the league-owned franchise.

[transplant99]

Interesting.

I have to believe that should the NHL decide they have had it with the nonsense in Phoenix, that the Coyotes will indeed head to Winnipeg ahead of the Thrashers as the BOG will not want to fund the team for another year.

That may truly lead to a contracted Atlanta team..something unfathomable just a few weeks ago.

Though KC has the arena at the ready, I am not sure they have a viable owner at this point as the AEG group needs to disconnect from LA I believe before anything there can be discussed....though i may be wrong on that.

[afc wimbledon]

Well I took a look at the MTS center website, seeing as it looks increasingly likely to be where they will be playing, I suppose they could be looking at doing a BC Place and take the roof off to go up an extra 50 feet.

[transplant99]

Well I took a look at the MTS center website, seeing as it looks increasingly likely to be where they will be playing, I suppose they could be looking at doing a BC Place and take the roof off to go up an extra 50 feet.


Why would they do that?

[Iggy3x]

Would the NHL be more interested to sell the Coyotes to the Winnipeg group and then step in to help (i.e. purchase) the Atlanta team and wait for another prospect owner to purchase and relocate the Thrashers to Kansas City, Quebec or even Hamilton? What is the situation like in Atlanta?

I would imagine the NHL may elect to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix and work out an extension with Glendale on the current arrangement if the sale fails rather than starting a similar fiasco in Atlanta. Unless the NHL is just sick of dealing with Glendale.

[transplant99]

Would the NHL be more interested to sell the Coyotes to the Winnipeg group and then step in to help (i.e. purchase) the Atlanta team and wait for another prospect owner to purchase and relocate the Thrashers to Kansas City, Quebec or even Hamilton? What is the situation like in Atlanta?

I would imagine the NHL may elect to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix and work out an extension with Glendale on the current arrangement if the sale fails rather than starting a similar fiasco in Atlanta. Unless the NHL is just sick of dealing with Glendale.


Very very bleak. Its Phoenix all over again actually, but the current ownership group is just as likely to walk away as sell (unlike the Ballsillie debacle) if it comes to that.

The fact that Daly and Bettman are heading to Phx personally is pretty telling. I suspect we have an idea of what is going to happen by weeks end.

[afc wimbledon]

Why would they do that?

Because in the end if hockey is to work in the Peg it has to draw the same as other markets, they can survive with league help and a deep pocketed owner for a decade or so, but in the end they will need a new arena or some plan to get an extra 3,000 seats or so in the 'old' one.

[troutman]

Because in the end if hockey is to work in the Peg it has to draw the same as other markets, they can survive with league help and a deep pocketed owner for a decade or so, but in the end they will need a new arena or some plan to get an extra 3,000 seats or so in the 'old' one.

I think the WIN ownership group has said they PREFER the smaller arena. They can charge more for tickets and keep demand for tickets high.

[Street Pharmacist]

“We have been approached by other teams, yes,” Hulsizer said, adding that he is not pursuing that interest “right now because we love Arizona.” [/I]


Interesting.

I have to believe that should the NHL decide they have had it with the nonsense in Phoenix, that the Coyotes will indeed head to Winnipeg ahead of the Thrashers as the BOG will not want to fund the team for another year.

That may truly lead to a contracted Atlanta team..something unfathomable just a few weeks ago.

Though KC has the arena at the ready, I am not sure they have a viable owner at this point as the AEG group needs to disconnect from LA I believe before anything there can be discussed....though i may be wrong on that.

Maybe?

[transplant99]

Because in the end if hockey is to work in the Peg it has to draw the same as other markets, they can survive with league help and a deep pocketed owner for a decade or so, but in the end they will need a new arena or some plan to get an extra 3,000 seats or so in the 'old' one.


From what I understand...seating isnt the primary issue. Its the luxury suites, thats where they will lag behind so many others.

On top of that, they need to sell what they have now before even thinking about putting more money into this arena.

[transplant99]

Maybe?


Perhaps. Just dont think anyone wants that market right now.

[ricardodw]

Because in the end if hockey is to work in the Peg it has to draw the same as other markets, they can survive with league help and a deep pocketed owner for a decade or so, but in the end they will need a new arena or some plan to get an extra 3,000 seats or so in the 'old' one.

3000 seats at $20 seat is 60,000 /game - 50 games/year is 3M per season in revenue.

That is assuming that these seats will all be sold out for every game at $20.

If there are not 100% sell out these cheap seat will be sold instead of the $60 seats and money will be lost.

If it cost any more than $20M to build the extra 3000 seats the money will never be recouped. If the government were to float a grant for the $20M then it becomes a great idea for owners, but they would rather the $20m be in cash or in lieu of taxes.

[valo403]

Interesting.

I have to believe that should the NHL decide they have had it with the nonsense in Phoenix, that the Coyotes will indeed head to Winnipeg ahead of the Thrashers as the BOG will not want to fund the team for another year.

That may truly lead to a contracted Atlanta team..something unfathomable just a few weeks ago.

Though KC has the arena at the ready, I am not sure they have a viable owner at this point as the AEG group needs to disconnect from LA I believe before anything there can be discussed....though i may be wrong on that.

I really don't see contraction happening, the reprecussions of that could be huge. It's just something that doesn't happen in modern day professional sports in North America, and taking that step would certainly be a massive blow to a number of revenue streams such as television contracts. A league that's contracting teams is not a league that you're going to see broadcasters and advertisers looking to work worth, the red flags are just too scary to risk it.

I'd expect that if it came right down to it the league would either operate the team in Atlanta as they did in Phoenix, or they'd make the move to KC and waive any issues with AEG having interests in two markets.

[ricardodw]

Interesting.

I have to believe that should the NHL decide they have had it with the nonsense in Phoenix, that the Coyotes will indeed head to Winnipeg ahead of the Thrashers as the BOG will not want to fund the team for another year.

That may truly lead to a contracted Atlanta team..something unfathomable just a few weeks ago.

Though KC has the arena at the ready, I am not sure they have a viable owner at this point as the AEG group needs to disconnect from LA I believe before anything there can be discussed....though i may be wrong on that.

The owners in Winnipeg are not fools and are making a profit without the NHL. They have time on their side. The purchase price of Phoenix has to be dropping every day as Atlanta and other owners start to look at getting some money back on their investment by selling their team to Winnipeg.

The NHL BOG has to be looking at minimizing their loses and keep 30 franchises even if one sells for a below "Bettman market price". A contraction would knock a considerable amount off the value of their asset. Depending on how it is being financed they may have to actually put in more cash to secure their current loans if their equity drops. Bettman is like a Realtor who is telling the owners not to panic, that their franchise fee is still worth the $200M he said it was before 30% of the neighborhood ran into financial problems.

Winnipeg is in a buyers market right now.

[ricardodw]

I really don't see contraction happening, the reprecussions of that could be huge. It's just something that doesn't happen in modern day professional sports in North America, and taking that step would certainly be a massive blow to a number of revenue streams such as television contracts. A league that's contracting teams is not a league that you're going to see broadcasters and advertisers looking to work worth, the red flags are just too scary to risk it.

I'd expect that if it came right down to it the league would either operate the team in Atlanta as they did in Phoenix, or they'd make the move to KC and waive any issues with AEG having interests in two markets.

yes .... Atlanta and Phoenix is driving the massive television contracts if they actually existed. They have just so much potential.

The good TV contracts in Canada, NY, Boston and Philly are 100% focussed on their local markets... This actually improves without Atlanta and Phoenix being broadcast 4 times a year.

[Mazrim]

There are signs the NHL is looking at Winnipeg. A report by CBC.ca said the league commissioned studies of the Winnipeg market that estimated a team in the MTS Centre, which seats 15,015 people, would bring in around $70-million in a season, which is about double what the Coyotes earn at Jobing.com Arena. However, the report said this would be the lowest revenue of the six current Canadian teams.
Elliot Friedman this morning on the Fan mentioned that this would place them somewhere around Nashville/Columbus in terms of revenue. I assume this would mean Winnipeg could be kind of a break even team, sometimes losses depending on the season. Certainly not the dire straits Phoenix and Atlanta regularly face.

[transplant99]

The owners in Winnipeg are not fools and are making a profit without the NHL.


Good for them. Making money in that arena with an NHL team is a whole different ball of wx though. Not sure what you are trying to imply with that.


The purchase price of Phoenix has to be dropping every day as Atlanta and other owners start to look at getting some money back on their investment by selling their team to Winnipeg.



Except the purchase price in Phoenix just went UP a couple days ago.


Team officials also point to positive signs in ticket sales. But as it stands, the losses have pushed up Hulsizer's purchase price to $210 million. The National Hockey League, owner of the orphan team, intends to lose no money on the team sale.
The NHL tacked on team and arena losses to the $140 million purchase price, which is what the league paid to take the team out of bankruptcy in late 2009. The team lost about $30 million last season



http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2011/03/06/20110306coyotes-sale-price-rises-make-up-losses.html#ixzz1G1tPtELj


The NHL BOG has to be looking at minimizing their loses and keep 30 franchises even if one sell for a below "Bettman market price". A contraction would knock a considerable amount off the value of their asset. Depending on how it is being financed they may have to actually put in more cash to secure their current loans if their equity drops.



Possibly...or they could just remain where they are until they get things figured out.


Winnipeg is in a buyers market right now.


That doesn't mean that the NHL is going aquiesce to just any sale though.

I really don't see contraction happening, the reprecussions of that could be huge. It's just something that doesn't happen in modern day professional sports in North America, and taking that step would certainly be a massive blow to a number of revenue streams such as television contracts. A league that's contracting teams is not a league that you're going to see broadcasters and advertisers looking to work worth, the red flags are just too scary to risk it.

I'd expect that if it came right down to it the league would either operate the team in Atlanta as they did in Phoenix, or they'd make the move to KC and waive any issues with AEG having interests in two markets.

I agree that contraction is a last resort, but not because of TV deals or anything like that.

I also think that your last paragraph is the most likely though IIRC the NHL would have to change their own charter to make it happen, and Phoenix would have to be staying where they are.

[transplant99]

yes .... Atlanta and Phoenix is driving the massive television contracts if they actually existed. They have just so much potential.

The good TV contracts in Canada, NY, Boston and Philly are 100% focussed on their local markets... This actually improves without Atlanta and Phoenix being broadcast 4 times a year.


There is a national contract coming up for negotiation this year in the US. ESPN wants back in just as an example.

It will dwarf what has been in place the last 6 years...and it would only help that both those cities have teams in the league regardless of current viewership.

[Resolute 14]

Well I took a look at the MTS center website, seeing as it looks increasingly likely to be where they will be playing, I suppose they could be looking at doing a BC Place and take the roof off to go up an extra 50 feet.

No, they really cant. To add seats, you have to go both up and out, and the arena location does not allow for outward expansion. More over, the revenue generated likely would not justify the expense. Raising a roof is not remotely cheap.

Doubly so given you would have to completely close the building for at least a year, maybe longer. That means no NHL team in the near future, but also no AHL team, no concerts, no events and no revenue.

It has been speculated that they could squeeze a few more luxury suites into existing space, but capacity of MTS will never be significantly increased. For better or for worse, it is and will be a 15,000 seat arena.

[Resolute 14]

The owners in Winnipeg are not fools and are making a profit without the NHL.

The costs of operating an AHL franchise are only a fraction of those for operating an NHL franchise. As with the AHL attendance argument, AHL revenues and expenses have little to no correlation to NHL potential.

Additionally, there are plenty of smart men who made lots of money elsewhere that became less rich attempting to operate a sports team. So really, the "the owner isn't a fool" argument holds no water either.

[Underdog]

Elliot Friedman this morning on the Fan mentioned that this would place them somewhere around Nashville/Columbus in terms of revenue. I assume this would mean Winnipeg could be kind of a break even team, sometimes losses depending on the season. Certainly not the dire straits Phoenix and Atlanta regularly face.

If these numbers are accurate, I really don't see how anyone can support the "NHL won't work in Winnipeg" argument anymore.

[valo403]

yes .... Atlanta and Phoenix is driving the massive television contracts if they actually existed. They have just so much potential.

The good TV contracts in Canada, NY, Boston and Philly are 100% focussed on their local markets... This actually improves without Atlanta and Phoenix being broadcast 4 times a year.

I like that when i make a post that actually lends support to your position you still feel the need to make a snarky comment that demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the issues. Quit acting like a child.

[troutman]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/dregerreport/

While nothing groundbreaking is expected to transpire today, sources confirm with The Dreger Report that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy commissioner Bill Daly will be in Glendale today and have meetings scheduled with the city of Glendale and perhaps the Goldwater Institute.

Negotiations on bond sales to finance Glendale's $100 million commitment to Matt Hulsizer are said to be ongoing, which reportedly is why the city has yet to follow through on threats of a lawsuit against Goldwater for interfering with the sale.

TSN's Dave Naylor will be in Glendale today and will be filing a full report for TSN.ca and Sportscentre

According to one NHL governor who spoke on the condition of anonymity on Thursday, based on the correspondene he's received, both he and the league feel confident the sale will go through and the Coyotes will remain in Arizona.

[afc wimbledon]

I really don't see contraction happening, the reprecussions of that could be huge. It's just something that doesn't happen in modern day professional sports in North America, and taking that step would certainly be a massive blow to a number of revenue streams such as television contracts. A league that's contracting teams is not a league that you're going to see broadcasters and advertisers looking to work worth, the red flags are just too scary to risk it.

I'd expect that if it came right down to it the league would either operate the team in Atlanta as they did in Phoenix, or they'd make the move to KC and waive any issues with AEG having interests in two markets.

The NBA is is pretty much the same situation as the NHL in a bunch of markets, I could see the 2 leagues agreeing to 'contract' together, so that it becomes a story about how sports economics are changing rather than either league being in trouble. I can see it being easier to sell a NBA/NHL package to save/relocate teams in some markets as well.

[troutman]

NHL’s support of Phoenix defies logic
http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/columnists/paul_friesen/2011/03/07/17529851.html

Hulsizer dropped a few more chips into the pot, telling the Arizona Republic the Coyotes have lost another $40 million this season, pushing his purchase price to $210 million ($170 million plus this year’s losses).

But since I’ve always preferred the cautionary approach to the frenetic one, I’ll leave you with Daly’s response to one, last question.

I asked him if it’s safe to say Winnipeg remains the league’s only Plan B.

“No. I don’t think that is accurate,” Daly responded. “I wouldn’t limit Plan B options at this point to moving the club to Winnipeg.”

He wouldn’t elaborate.

And I won’t begin to celebrate.

[Resolute 14]

If these numbers are accurate, I really don't see how anyone can support the "NHL won't work in Winnipeg" argument anymore.

Easily. The "Winnipeg compares to Nashville/Columbus" argument assumes Winnipeg is selling out every game, where Nashville and Columbus obviously are not. This is actually an argument that has consistently been made from day one: Winnipeg's top end is no better than existing mediocrity.

If Columbus or Nashville got to the point of selling out all their games, their revenues would far exceed Winnipeg's. If Winnipeg hit a downspin, Columbus and Nashville would see their revenues far exceed Winnipeg.

It is worth noting that Nashville was a relocation target not too long ago.

[transplant99]

The NBA is is pretty much the same situation as the NHL in a bunch of markets, I could see the 2 leagues agreeing to 'contract' together, so that it becomes a story about how sports economics are changing rather than either league being in trouble. I can see it being easier to sell a NBA/NHL package to save/relocate teams in some markets as well.


18 of the 30 NBA teams are said to be losing money...I just dont understand how iwth the TV contract they have, but it apparently is bad enough that the league could shutdown over the upcoming CBA battle.

[afc wimbledon]

18 of the 30 NBA teams are said to be losing money...I just dont understand how iwth the TV contract they have, but it apparently is bad enough that the league could shutdown over the upcoming CBA battle.

I suppose we could see a situation where some US markets use the NBA to support the NHL (Kansas City) and some Canadian Markets use the NHL to support the NBA (Vancouver).
We may see some kind of formal agreement to make operating twin franchises easier.

Under this scenario Winnipeg is screwed.

[Resolute 14]

18 of the 30 NBA teams are said to be losing money...I just dont understand how iwth the TV contract they have, but it apparently is bad enough that the league could shutdown over the upcoming CBA battle.

The haves and the have nots have a far wider gap than the NHL, I believe. Probably closer to baseball's gap. For instance, the LA Lakers are currently getting $30 million a year on their local rights fees, and beginning 2012-13, could be as much as $150 million per year (http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-0215-lakers-time-warner-20110215,0,1870324.story).

[afc wimbledon]

No, they really cant. To add seats, you have to go both up and out, and the arena location does not allow for outward expansion. More over, the revenue generated likely would not justify the expense. Raising a roof is not remotely cheap.

Doubly so given you would have to completely close the building for at least a year, maybe longer. That means no NHL team in the near future, but also no AHL team, no concerts, no events and no revenue.

It has been speculated that they could squeeze a few more luxury suites into existing space, but capacity of MTS will never be significantly increased. For better or for worse, it is and will be a 15,000 seat arena.

As my builder would say 'you can always add space' it is just a question of how much money you want to pay, is it economic to buy up 4 or 5 blocks around the arena, demolish everything, put in underpasses to allow seating over the roads and then build some kind of a large mall complex around it all to try and recoup some of the investment? probably not!

[Resolute 14]

Heh. Somehow I don't see the city allowing the closure of Portage Avenue to accommodate such a retrofit. Part of the reason why MTS is the size it is is limitations on space at that location.

[octothorp]

18 of the 30 NBA teams are said to be losing money...I just dont understand how iwth the TV contract they have, but it apparently is bad enough that the league could shutdown over the upcoming CBA battle.

Yeah, the league is getting shellacked at the gate. In 2006, every team in the NBA had an average home attendence of greater than 15,000. Now, there are 8 teams under that threshold. Four teams under that line are currently in the playoffs.

And honestly, the league has only itself to blame. It went all-in on a big-market, superstar marketing model, which ensures massive TV revenue, since Miami, Boston, and LA (and now, New York) get the vast majority of the national exposure and NBA fans nationwide follow these teams closely. But it would help all teams at the gate if a team like, say, Memphis (currently in the playoffs, but last in road attendance) got enough exposure for people to think that it is worth paying money to see the home team take on the Grizzlies. They are using their media strength to maximize media revenue, when they should be using media strength to maximize gate revenue.

[afc wimbledon]

Heh. Somehow I don't see the city allowing the closure of Portage Avenue to accommodate such a retrofit. Part of the reason why MTS is the size it is is limitations on space at that location.

Oh I aint saying it would happen, just that roads and the like are a small problem if someone wants to shovle enough cash at it.

[Northendzone]

i remember the good old days when guys like george gillete bought hockey teams with thier own money and a big public bond offering was not needed......

i think brunt nailed it yesterday when he said that he thought the nhl likely wishes it would have been able to strike a deal with jimmy b who was willing to overpay for the team with cash and provide the COG with a parting gift.......

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Oh I aint saying it would happen, just that roads and the like are a small problem if someone wants to shovle enough cash at it.

If they want to shovel enough cash at it, they'll build a new rink on a site that has enough room for an NHL sized rink.

[Mazrim]

Easily. The "Winnipeg compares to Nashville/Columbus" argument assumes Winnipeg is selling out every game, where Nashville and Columbus obviously are not. This is actually an argument that has consistently been made from day one: Winnipeg's top end is no better than existing mediocrity.
You're assuming that the revenue report is using a sell-out situation. That's not realistic at all. You'd have to think they're expecting not all nights to sell out over the long term.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

You're assuming that the revenue report is using a sell-out situation. That's not realistic at all. You'd have to think they're expecting not all nights to sell out over the long term.

That's not what all the kool aid drinking Jets fans are claiming. Sure sellouts!!! Every night!! Only the cheap seats are missing in the undersized rink!!

[transplant99]

i remember the good old days when guys like george gillete bought hockey teams with thier own money and a big public bond offering was not needed......

i think brunt nailed it yesterday when he said that he thought the nhl likely wishes it would have been able to strike a deal with jimmy b who was willing to overpay for the team with cash and provide the COG with a parting gift.......


Nonsensical argument.

he wanted to move the club without paying any territorial rights and without going through the proper process...why has that changed?

He buys the team...he stays in Phoenix, and that was something he was unwilling to do.

Does he have an agreement with MTS? Because no matter what he is not going to get Hamilton at this point.

[TorqueDog]

What Matthew Hulsizer was quoted as saying: "We have everything we need to close..."

The part that was cut off of his quote: "... except what we need to close."

[afc wimbledon]

If they want to shovel enough cash at it, they'll build a new rink on a site that has enough room for an NHL sized rink.

You would think that, of course I am watching a piece of crap stadium in Vancouver getting a barely functionable new roof for damn near the price of a new stadium so who can say!

[Resolute 14]

You're assuming that the revenue report is using a sell-out situation. That's not realistic at all. You'd have to think they're expecting not all nights to sell out over the long term.

Yes I, and everyone else on both sides of the debate, have been making such an assumption. However, given Columbus averaged a bit over 15k last year (down to 13.8k this), while Nashville is averaging 15k this year (up from around 14 last), assuming that Winnipeg is comparable at the same attendance is reasonable. The difference is that Winnipeg at 15k is the top end, no room for growth, while every other market in the NHL can grow from 15k.

Keep in mind that both Columbus and Nashville are revenue sharing recipients, and if Winnipeg is said to be comparable, would also be a revenue sharing collector. In order to fully qualify, Winnipeg would have to sell out, or start losing their share.

All of these arguments assume complete sellouts for a reason.

[Resolute 14]

Nonsensical argument.

he wanted to move the club without paying any territorial rights and without going through the proper process...why has that changed?

He buys the team...he stays in Phoenix, and that was something he was unwilling to do.

Does he have an agreement with MTS? Because no matter what he is not going to get Hamilton at this point.

Add in his behaviour on the Predators sale, and I would suggest Brunt is doing some serious drugs if he thinks the league is having second thoughts on Balsillie.

Don't get me wrong though. I would love to see him owning a team in Hamilton. His war with the Maple Leafs would make for great entertainment!

[Mazrim]

Sure, that's fine. The point is that Winnipeg getting 85% attendance is still better than Atlanta at 40%, regardless of the ability to grow. If the Thompson group is okay with having a revenue ceiling, then why would NHL say no to it? If Columbus continues to miss the playoffs, I imagine their average will not go up much either.

[Resolute 14]

And Atlanta at 85% is better than Winnipeg at 40%. See what I did there?

[PegCityFlamesFan]

The problem there is that Atlanta has/is/never will be at 80%.

[ricardodw]

You're assuming that the revenue report is using a sell-out situation. That's not realistic at all. You'd have to think they're expecting not all nights to sell out over the long term.


If the Jets average ticket price is $60 chances are they will sell out.

15,000 * 60 = 900,000 game



San Jose at $43 and a state of the art arena seating 17,750 and one of the winningest team in a decade max revenue per game: 763,000 game

So basically Winnipeg can have an average ticket price of $50 and have the same revenue as best San Jose can do.



Average ticket prices Jan 2010 from forbes

Columbus - 51
Carolina - 38
NYI - 51
Nashville - 48
TB 36
Atlanta 46
Phoenix 37
St. L 44
Florida 49
Buffalo 36
anahiem 44
San Jose 43
Washington 45
Colorado 60
Minnesota 61
LA 47
NJD 48
Dallas 50
Pittsburgh 56


Edmonton 60
Ottawa 56
Calgary 60
Vancouver 65

[c.t.ner]

If the Jets average ticket price is $60 chances are they will sell out.

Average ticket prices Jan 2010 from forbes

Washington 45



Sorry, I know you're quoting an article from Forbes magazine, but I have to call BS on this number.

I've been living in The District for over a year and a half now and I have never seen a special or even offer for a caps ticket for less than 65 dollars. Have a quick look at Ticketmaster and the lowest ticket is $63 dollars straight up.

[afc wimbledon]

Sorry, I know you're quoting an article from Forbes magazine, but I have to call BS on this number.

I've been living in The District for over a year and a half now and I have never seen a special or even offer for a caps ticket for less than 65 dollars. Have a quick look at Ticketmaster and the lowest ticket is $63 dollars straight up.

I would guess the 45 is a season ticket price?

[Jordan!]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/03/08/last-ditch-coyotes-deal-could-be-in.html?ana=twt

According to sources close to the inner-workings of the deal, the new Coyotes sale plan could entail:
• Reducing the amount of City of Glendale bonds for Hulsizer and the Coyotes from $100 million down to $70 million.
• Having the National Hockey League discount its estimated $170 million asking price for the team, plus this year’s $25 million to $30 million in losses it wants covered by Glendale or Hulsizer.
• Asking Hulsizer to contribute more than the current estimated $70 million he is putting into the transaction.
• Possibly leveraging $25 million Glendale previously allocated to help cover the Coyotes losses this season.
• Hoping the reduced bonds amount and financial changes lessen legal opposition to the deal from the Goldwater Institute watchdog group.


Read more: Last-ditch Coyotes deal could be in the works | Phoenix Business Journal

[Resolute 14]

IIRC, those average ticket prices don't include luxury suites either.

Average ticket price =/= revenue generated per seat. As noted, season ticket holders pay less, and there are always tickets given away, even if just a couple hundred per game.

[Resolute 14]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/03/08/last-ditch-coyotes-deal-could-be-in.html?ana=twt

According to sources close to the inner-workings of the deal, the new Coyotes sale plan could entail:
• Reducing the amount of City of Glendale bonds for Hulsizer and the Coyotes from $100 million down to $70 million.
• Having the National Hockey League discount its estimated $170 million asking price for the team, plus this year’s $25 million to $30 million in losses it wants covered by Glendale or Hulsizer.
• Asking Hulsizer to contribute more than the current estimated $70 million he is putting into the transaction.
• Possibly leveraging $25 million Glendale previously allocated to help cover the Coyotes losses this season.
• Hoping the reduced bonds amount and financial changes lessen legal opposition to the deal from the Goldwater Institute watchdog group.


Read more: Last-ditch Coyotes deal could be in the works | Phoenix Business Journal

Just about everyone with a connection to the NHL who has commented on Twitter is calling bullcrap. The general opinion is "The NHL is going to eat some losses here? LOL"

[c.t.ner]

IIRC, those average ticket prices don't include luxury suites either.

Average ticket price =/= revenue generated per seat. As noted, season ticket holders pay less, and there are always tickets given away, even if just a couple hundred per game.

Interesting. I'd still gander to say that is a very low value for Washington and for San Jose (and other markets) - even with factoring in Season Ticket holder price values and free tickets. The information also points to January 2010, so I doubt that those ticket values are from the 2009-10 season and are probably based on the 2008-09 season.

Personally, I don't see these values as a good metric to forecast the success of the Jets in the near future. If as the OP suggested the average ticket price in Winnipeg is 60 dollars, than the average walk up face value for a ticket to a Jets game would have to be closer to 75-80 dollars. (With the basis that Walk-up ticket sales have a higher face value). That's an expensive proposition for a single game for such a small population base.

[troutman]

Glendale Teabaggers getting involved:

NHL top brass in town, while Glendale Tea Party plans Coyotes protest
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/westsideinsider/121332

UPDATE: Fox Sports Arizona producer Graham Taylor reports Bettman will be interviewed tonight during the first intermission of the Coyotes vs. Vancouver Canucks game to update fans and viewers on the saga in Glendale.

Meanwhile, the Glendale Tea Party Patriots are planning to protest Glendale's deal with Coyotes buyer Matthew Hulsizer outside a community meeting Mayor Elaine Scruggs has called next week.

In a letter to the mayor (http://www.glendalestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/article_2300065c-4445-11e0-bee0-001cc4c002e0.html), McHugh called the deal "risks in which we do not want to participate."

"Please be aware that many of our members are educated professionals, and very intellectual and knowledgeable (we've done our homework)".

[Resolute 14]

Intellectual and knowledgeable are two words that I would never use to describe a tea bagger.

[afc wimbledon]

Intellectual and knowledgeable are two words that I would never use to describe a tea bagger.

I'd agree but Arizona is full of the mexican hating #######s so it seems an unlikely place to pull off a public financed sale of a hockey team with little local support in the worst economy the states have seen in decades!

[troutman]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/5382/rant-answers-slumps-worry-wings-flyers-fans-relocation-worries-coyotes-fans

amy4240: As an avid Phoenix Coyotes (http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-coyotes) and hockey fan, I am absolutely heartbroken at the prospect of the Coyotes relocating. Is there anything that the fans can do to help Glendale in its fight against the Goldwater Institute? Is there any way to reach out to the NHL and convince them to give us more time to get a resolution? I feel like the Goldwater Institute is back-dooring us.

My take (LeBrun): Amy, it's not over yet! Things are dire, yes, but it's not over yet. The NHL and City of Glendale were going to give this one last shot. If I were a Coyotes fan right now, however, I'd organize a rally! It can't hurt! Show your passion, Yotes fans!

[troutman]

I get the feeling PHO and ATL are staying put for a couple of more seasons. These houses of cards will topple later than sooner.

[sureLoss]

Hulsizer not prepared to change his agreement to buy the coyotes:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/hulsizer-wont-change-deal-for-coyotes/article1933813/
Matthew Hulsizer says he will not change the agreement he has with the City of Glendale as part of any 11th-hour attempt to keep the Phoenix Coyotes (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/hulsizer-wont-change-deal-for-coyotes/article1933813/#) from moving.
“I am prepared to honor my deal, which is lawful,” Hulsizer said in an e-mail message Tuesday. “It's a free market, so if someone else wants to step in they should.”

[afc wimbledon]

Hulsizer not prepared to change his agreement to buy the coyotes:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/hulsizer-wont-change-deal-for-coyotes/article1933813/

Stick a fork in it...

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Amy organize your rally, I am sure this time you will out number the media covering it.

[troutman]

Hulsizer not prepared to change his agreement to buy the coyotes:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/hulsizer-wont-change-deal-for-coyotes/article1933813/

Wow - this might change Gary's 1st period interview from a pep rally to a eulogy.

NHL sources have long maintained Bettman cannot reduce the sale price of the Coyotes. He promised the NHL governors in December, 2009 that they would get all of the money back they poured into the financially crippled franchise after the league bought it out of bankruptcy in October, 2009.

“Gary absolutely cannot go back to the governors for more money,” one NHL governor said recently.

If the bond issue fails to go through, which is looking more likely by the hour, Bettman’s only alternative is to sell the Coyotes to True North Sports and Entertainment, which plans to move the team to Winnipeg.

At this point, it appears the fate of the municipal bonds will be known within 10 days. If so, it is believed the NHL will make a decision then on whether to sell to True North rather than draw the process out even further.

[cam_wmh]

Amy organize your rally, I am sure this time you will out number the media covering it.

I'm just going throw this out there, and if you don't like it you just throw it on back...

"amy why don't you organize a rally of fans to, oh i dunno, buy Coyotes tickets?"

[SuperMatt18]

It looks more and more like Winnipeg will once again be host to NHL hockey.

I do have to wonder why nobody has thought of moving a team to Kansas City. St.Louis has proved that hockey works in an area with a similar population base and demographics.

The city recently built the Sprint Center as a state of the art arena and has been begging one of the major sports leagues to go there as a major tenant for the arena. I remember hearing in the past that they were offering a sweetheart of a leasing deal for any team that would be willing to move there to play.

[Jordan!]

The be honest.. Yotes fans are pretty defeated.. myself included. I'm practically at the "Who cares" stage.. I've got my season ticket renewals in the mail and playoff ticket order forms and have no interest in moving forward with either.

Get this done already

[troutman]

The be honest.. Yotes fans are pretty defeated.. myself included. I'm practically at the "Who cares" stage.. I've got my season ticket renewals in the mail and playoff ticket order forms and have no interest in moving forward with either.

Get this done already

I honestly feel bad for you. I wish there were more people like you in AZ, and hockey can stay in PHO. I wish there could be a team in WIN too. Perhaps it may still get worked out.

[cznTiburon]

It seems like now with Huliszer not wanting to change his deal and Bettman not able to reduce due to his commitment to the board that there is no way this deal is going to get done. someone needs to make a decision though and soon on whether to continue to press or to finally make the move. enough dragging feet on this

[burn_this_city]

Maybe I'm way off base, but wasn't it foolish for the NHL to expect a new owner to eat the losses incurred before they bought the team?

[afc wimbledon]

The be honest.. Yotes fans are pretty defeated.. myself included. I'm practically at the "Who cares" stage.. I've got my season ticket renewals in the mail and playoff ticket order forms and have no interest in moving forward with either.

Get this done already

AFC Wimbledon is the soccer club that fans put together to replace Wimbledon FC, the first soccer team to be moved in England in damn near ever, I used to be a St Johns Cadet doing first aid at Wimbledon in the 70's, trust me I feel your pain.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Bouw, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Regardless of our obvious different opinions on the situation, you're one hell of a fan. If more people in Phoenix and Glendale were like you we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

The be honest.. Yotes fans are pretty defeated.. myself included. I'm practically at the "Who cares" stage.. I've got my season ticket renewals in the mail and playoff ticket order forms and have no interest in moving forward with either.

Get this done already

It'll get done.

[Sport Psych]

AFC Wimbledon is the soccer club that fans put together to replace Wimbledon FC, the first soccer team to be moved in England in damn near ever, I used to be a St Johns Cadet doing first aid at Wimbledon in the 70's, trust me I feel your pain.

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but let me just state for the record that the MK Dons, and all involved with that club, can burn for all eternity. Anyone who supports lower division football empathizes with Wimbledon FC and knows they were done dirty. I think many supporters, regardless of where they're from, secretly cheer for AFC Wimbledon to do well... I know I do. And I say this as a Grimsby Town supporter (sorry for the 2-1 win last Saturday). Nothing would make me happier than to see both Grimsby and AFC Wimbledon get back in the League this year (won't happen though, as Crawley will take one of those spots). Go Town, and go Wombles!

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but let me just state for the record that the MK Dons, and all involved with that club, can burn for all eternity. Anyone who supports lower division football empathizes with Wimbledon FC and knows they were done dirty. I think many supporters, regardless of where they're from, secretly cheer for AFC Wimbledon to do well... I know I do. And I say this as a Grimsby Town supporter (sorry for the 2-1 win last Saturday). Nothing would make me happier than to see both Grimsby and AFC Wimbledon get back in the League this year (won't happen though, as Crawley will take one of those spots). Go Town, and go Wombles!

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/lexielex/K45r6V3mXKd6TDUMBUqokvuVxKeA59AKYVxTfd0R4lGru78zFn PlWcCpV4io/Cool_story_bro.jpeg

[getbak]

If the bond issue fails to go through, which is looking more likely by the hour, Bettman’s only alternative is to sell the Coyotes to True North Sports and Entertainment, which plans to move the team to Winnipeg.
I'll ask the same question here that I asked in the other thread: Why is that their only alternative? Once the requirement to keep the team in Glendale is off the table, isn't there a good chance that other offers might come in that would be better than Winnipeg's?

To the best of my knowledge, Hulsizer doesn't have any ties to the Phoenix area, so why wouldn't he shop around looking for a sweetheart deal in KC or somewhere else?

Balsillie could always poke his head into things again, too.


Once keeping the team in Glendale is no longer a requirement, wouldn't the next logical step be to open the sale to offers from any interested parties?

[GirlySports]

The only logical thing tonight is if Bettman showed up at his news conference in a Jets cap.

[Nuckleduster]

I feel sorry for the fans in Phoenix; I know what it's like when a franchise with a small but rabid fan base gets moved, its a slap in the face.

I do wonder about the fate of the Moose in the event of a Phoenix move. Move the Moose to Abbotsford and the Heat to a Calgary area facility would be ideal for both parent clubs, and probably make western AHL swings more feasible, but the lawyers and leaseholders might have something to say about that.

[afc wimbledon]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but let me just state for the record that the MK Dons, and all involved with that club, can burn for all eternity. Anyone who supports lower division football empathizes with Wimbledon FC and knows they were done dirty. I think many supporters, regardless of where they're from, secretly cheer for AFC Wimbledon to do well... I know I do. And I say this as a Grimsby Town supporter (sorry for the 2-1 win last Saturday). Nothing would make me happier than to see both Grimsby and AFC Wimbledon get back in the League this year (won't happen though, as Crawley will take one of those spots). Go Town, and go Wombles!


I look foward to the day AFC meets MK in the 2nd division, I shall fly home, polish up me old cherry Docs and go looking to kick seven shades of sh** out of any of them Buckinghamshire slags I can find... womble aggro forever.

[chanimal40]

So does Winterpeg retires Shane Doans #?

[sureLoss]

http://www.twitter.com/brahmresnik

Bettman: Bonds need to be sold but have not been, despite "good rating." Why? "Goldwater has placed cloud on the bonds."

Bettman: "I'm not sure they even think they have good lawsuit." Accuses Gwater of game playing by not meeting him.

Bettman: "Time is running out. We're getting close to the end" Won't say when end is.

[afc wimbledon]

'Time is running out. We're getting close to the end" Won't say when end is.'

What time is tonight intermission?

[GirlySports]

This press conference is a joke, Bettman is absolutely delusional, how does he still have a job?

[Resolute 14]

Balsillie could always poke his head into things again, too.

And the NHL would just turn him away. Balsillie simply is not a part of the conversation anymore.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

And the NHL would just turn him away. Balsillie simply is not a part of the conversation anymore.

Stranger things have happened.

[Dogbert]

This press conference is a joke, Bettman is absolutely delusional, how does he still have a job?

The NHL's owners are lining their pockets moreso now than ever before, so there's no reason for them to want Bettman gone. Of course, I would argue the reason for that has more to do with the prices for everything related to the NHL going through the roof and the diehard fans continuing to let themselves be gouged than anything Bettman's done to "grow the game"...

[Resolute 14]

This press conference is a joke, Bettman is absolutely delusional, how does he still have a job?

Because what the BOG expects him to do and what the fans want him to do are not the same thing.

[Otto29]

From the outside it would seem that letting Balsillie buy the team would be the perfect solution. Unfortunately and sadly this has become more about the NHL brass trying to save face and egos have gotten involved.

It seems ridiculous that this has dragged on for so long and I am shocked other NHL owners haven't called Bettman out for his handling of this. Its embarrassing to the league and just not a good situation for anyone.

When you are prepared to eat hundreds of millions of dollars when you could have avoided that its not good business.

[Sport Psych]

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/lexielex/K45r6V3mXKd6TDUMBUqokvuVxKeA59AKYVxTfd0R4lGru78zFn PlWcCpV4io/Cool_story_bro.jpeg

Keep oozing that class, GTF.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Keep oozing that class, GTF.

http://images0.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3844406/Awesome-The-bro-story-again-.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=cool-story-bro-house

[valo403]

This press conference is a joke, Bettman is absolutely delusional, how does he still have a job?

C'mon, seriously? You of all people are better than to make ridiculous statements like this. The NHL has never seen a period of success anywhere close to what they've seen under Bettman's term as commish.

[valo403]

From the outside it would seem that letting Balsillie buy the team would be the perfect solution. Unfortunately and sadly this has become more about the NHL brass trying to save face and egos have gotten involved.

It seems ridiculous that this has dragged on for so long and I am shocked other NHL owners haven't called Bettman out for his handling of this. Its embarrassing to the league and just not a good situation for anyone.

When you are prepared to eat hundreds of millions of dollars when you could have avoided that its not good business.

How are people still under the impression that the Balsille issue is about ego? The guy tried to sue his way into the league, has shown no interest in anything but his own well being, and has just generally made it quite clear that he does not play well with others. Why would anyone want to accept a guy like that into the fold?

[ricardodw]

How are people still under the impression that the Balsille issue is about ego? The guy tried to sue his way into the league, has shown no interest in anything but his own well being, and has just generally made it quite clear that he does not play well with others. Why would anyone want to accept a guy like that into the fold?

An then Mark Cuban, all around team player and good guy buys the Stars.

It will be great the first time Detroit score a couple goals on Dallas inside the paint.

[Joborule]

An then Mark Cuban, all around team player and good guy buys the Stars.

It will bet great the first time Detroit score a couple goals on Dallas inside the paint.

There's ways you go about getting a team. Balsillie basically effed around in his procedure in getting in and has not gotten the evil eye from the ownership group. Keep in mind it's a partnership. So if they don't like the prospects of one of the owners, they won't let him in.

Balsillie would have a team right now if he didn't go all in on first draw.

If this doesn't get resolved and Coyotes have to move from Phoenix to Winnipeg, this whole drama is just gonna start up again in several years once the honeymoon is over and they are struggling to break even even with high capacity crowds. This is gonna be the song that never ends...

[afc wimbledon]

There's ways you go about getting a team. Balsillie basically effed around in his procedure in getting in and has not gotten the evil eye from the ownership group. Keep in mind it's a partnership. So if they don't like the prospects of one of the owners, they won't let him in.

Balsillie would have a team right now if he didn't go all in on first draw.

If this doesn't get resolved and Coyotes have to move from Phoenix to Winnipeg, this whole drama is just gonna start up again in several years once the honeymoon is over and they are struggling to break even even with high capacity crowds. This is gonna be the song that never ends...

musical herpes?

[burn_this_city]

It goes on and on my friend...

[troutman]

Coyotes last stand
Bettman: "Time is running out"
http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/columnists/paul_friesen/2011/03/08/17545041.html

"Time is running out. We're getting close to the end," a grim Bettman said.

"We have options," Bettman said. "But I'm not going to discuss what those options are. The options we're going to continue to pursue are here. We are obviously aware of the interest in Winnipeg. We are greatly appreciative of that interest, but I don't want to say or do anything that raises expectations. I don't think that's fair.

"We're not giving up."

Hulsizer told one media outlet he shouldn't have to pay a dollar more than the $70 million he's reportedly committed, a quote that says everything about the real value of a pro hockey franchise in cactus country.

And it doesn't sound like Bettman is prepared to budge from his asking price.

"The deals have been struck," he said. "And there's only one thing left to do: to close them."

[troutman]

Bettman admits Coyotes deal out of his hands

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Bettman-Daly-headed-to-Phoenix-117582273.html

"The league is only the selling party," said Bettman. "This deal is between the prospective buyer and the City of Glendale. It’s up to them."

"It’s become increasingly clear to me the Goldwater Institute can be very obstructionist. In light of their conduct in this matter, I question whether this is really an organization that is concerned with the public interest despite a mission statement that calls for free enterprise," said Bettman. "I quite frankly don’t know who the people there report to or are accountable to but it fascinates me that whoever is running the Goldwater Institute can substitute their judgment for that of the Glendale city council. In effect, they’re over-turning a duly enacted resolution in the city and one that was enacted in public session.

"Without actually filing a lawsuit, Goldwater is having its way simply by threatening. I’m not even sure they think they have a good lawsuit. We are told two independent law firms looked at this and said the transaction is legal under Arizona law."

"I requested a meeting today with (Goldwater CEO) Darcy Olsen and I was told no but I could have a joint news conference. This situation is far too serious for such game-playing," said Bettman. "My hope is somehow Goldwater and Glendale can find a way to get this done promptly. So where does this leave us. We’re not yet done. We haven’t given up and we’re not giving up. Our commitment remains as strong as ever but time is running out."

[Resolute 14]

How are people still under the impression that the Balsille issue is about ego? The guy tried to sue his way into the league, has shown no interest in anything but his own well being, and has just generally made it quite clear that he does not play well with others. Why would anyone want to accept a guy like that into the fold?

Not only that, but his way of trying to get the Coyotes would have destroyed any semblance of control over team locations. Basically, if Balsillie won, the Flames could pull up and move anywhere they want tomorrow. No notice, no vote.

And this was after he started selling season tickets in Hamilton for a Nashville franchise he didn't yet own.

Balsillie would have been entertaining, but he was bad news for the league - not Bettman, the league. And for those wondering why Bettman hasn't been fired over this, it is because he, Daly, and a battalion of lawyers beat back a threat that was considered so significant the other big four leagues got involved.

People allow their hatred of Bettman and Balsillie's slick sales pitch to overrule logic. As much as I would have loved to have seen Balsillie on the Leafs doorstep, the cost to the league was too high.

[transplant99]

"I quite frankly don’t know who the people there report to or are accountable to but it fascinates me that whoever is running the Goldwater Institute can substitute their judgment for that of the Glendale city council. In effect, they’re over-turning a duly enacted resolution in the city and one that was enacted in public session.



That's the part of this I dont get at all.

How does a private (non-elected) enterprise with a clear agenda, over-rule (by use of threat) elected officials of the public?

It's assinine and a really frightening precedent IMO.

I don't care one way or the other where the team plays or even if it plays, but seeing this kind of outside interfence happen to a publicly elected board is really bothersome.

[Resolute 14]

It's Arizona. I'm not sure there is a more effed up state in the union.

[troutman]

That's the part of this I dont get at all.

How does a private (non-elected) enterprise with a clear agenda, over-rule (by use of threat) elected officials of the public?

It's assinine and a really frightening precedent IMO.

I don't care one way or the other where the team plays or even if it plays, but seeing this kind of outside interfence happen to a publicly elected board is really bothersome.

I don't know if GWI is right, but they are saying the bond sale is an illegal gift. Shouldn't public officials be held accountable for illegal actions? Wouldn't that be more frightening if elected bodies could ignore the law?

[Street Pharmacist]

It's Arizona. I'm not sure there is a more effed up state in the union.

Texas says hi

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/08/texas.sonogram/

sorry for the derail

[afc wimbledon]

That's the part of this I dont get at all.

How does a private (non-elected) enterprise with a clear agenda, over-rule (by use of threat) elected officials of the public?

It's assinine and a really frightening precedent IMO.

I don't care one way or the other where the team plays or even if it plays, but seeing this kind of outside interfence happen to a publicly elected board is really bothersome.

Publicaly elected officials have to abide by the law and in Arizona that means not giving away tax money to billionaires in an attempt to keep an ill considered stadium rented.

[ogre2010]

That's the part of this I dont get at all.

How does a private (non-elected) enterprise with a clear agenda, over-rule (by use of threat) elected officials of the public?

It's assinine and a really frightening precedent IMO.

I don't care one way or the other where the team plays or even if it plays, but seeing this kind of outside interfence happen to a publicly elected board is really bothersome.

But that's the other side of the arguement the publicly elected officials are pledging public money to fund a privately owned franchise for someone else. Oh and they're buying parking rights they already own. I'm over simplifying this probably but that's the gist I get from it

[transplant99]

I don't know if GWI is right, but they are saying the bond sale is an illegal gift. Shouldn't public officials be held accountable for illegal actions? Wouldn't that be more frightening if elected bodies could ignore the law?


Sure, but I dont see that at all here....not a bit.

Its a bond issue...this happens on a regular basis all over the US. What this group is doing is trying to manipulate how a city conducts its business and even moreso if the following statement is true...

We are told two independent law firms looked at this and said the transaction is legal under Arizona law."


The fact that they are threatening a lawsuit over somethng as common as a bond issue by a municipality that has ben deemed legal says a whole bunch. They are clearly a political action group that is not elected yet is affecting the way elected officials do their job. That's not cool.

Again i dont care either way on this thing, but if this was happening in canada where a private group was affecting the existance of a hockey teams location based purely on threats of a lawsuit, people would be having seizues about it from St. John to Nanaimo.

[transplant99]

Publicaly elected officials have to abide by the law and in Arizona that means not giving away tax money to billionaires in an attempt to keep an ill considered stadium rented.


Ill considered or not, the stadium is there for good.

Now, if the team moves, that becomes an even bigger boon-doggle for the public as they have no anchor tenant to pay for it.

How does this help taxpayers again?

[afc wimbledon]

Sure, but I dont see that at all here....not a bit.

Its a bond issue...this happens on a regular basis all over the US. What this group is doing is trying to manipulate how a city conducts its business and even moreso if the following statement is true...



The fact that they are threatening a lawsuit over somethng as common as a bond issue by a municipality that has ben deemed legal says a whole bunch. They are clearly a political action group that is not elected yet is affecting the way elected officials do their job. That's not cool.

Again i dont care either way on this thing, but if this was happening in canada where a private group was affecting the existance of a hockey teams location based purely on threats of a lawsuit, people would be having seizues about it from St. John to Nanaimo.

Its not a commen bond issue, it's backed by a questionable estimate of parking revenues, if they won't pay it back it will require tax revenue to pay off which is illegal under Arizona law.

[transplant99]

Its not a commen bond issue, it's backed by a questionable estimate of parking revenues, if they won't pay it back it will require tax revenue to pay off which is illegal under Arizona law.

What IF they do? Then it's possible that the CoG loses a tenant that would save taxpayers a whole whack of money moving forward....what does GWI do then?

I understand the estimates being bandied about are under scrutiny, and if they are wrong then no bond issue should happen or they will quickly find themselves in junk status.

However, that simply is not the case at this point and CoG can only go with what is in front of them, not on some politically driven group's desire to run interfence without proof either way.

I have no dog in this fight so to speak and am completely void of emotion about it either way. In fact, if you dont live in Winnipeg or QC or Phoenix or anywhere that this would directly affect things, Im not sure why anyone would care all that much about it. The team will play somewhere next year and someone elses money will be paying for it, that much is true. Beyond that the opponent for the Flames whether they be based on either side of the border is just that...an opponent.

[SILVERBACK13]

gary is claiming that Goldwater is acting against the public's interest. How many people turned out to rally, or support the team.

This team could have been in Canada by now and making money.

Lets start our own canada league...maybe turn the Stanley Cup into Champions League format

[Parallex]

How does this help taxpayers again?

At face value I imagine the rational is that they're saving the taxpayer the tax revenue loss incurred by misestimates of the parking revenues used to back the municipal bond (ye ol' throwing good money after bad).

Frankly I don't see why the City didn't just refer the question as to whether the deal is constitutional to an Arizona court at the onset and avoid the whole pissing contest with GWI to begin with (or can they do that? I know gov't has done that in Canada). I mean it's not like anyone wouldn't have seen this coming a mile away given all that's happened over the past several years.

[afc wimbledon]

At face value I imagine the rational is that they're saving the taxpayer the tax revenue loss incurred by misestimates of the parking revenues used to back the municipal bond (ye ol' throwing good money after bad).

Frankly I don't see why the City didn't just refer the question as to whether the deal is constitutional to an Arizona court at the onset and avoid the whole pissing contest with GWI to begin with (or can they do that? I know gov't has done that in Canada). I mean it's not like anyone wouldn't have seen this coming a mile away given all that's happened over the past several years.

My guess is their own lawyers told them they would probably lose.

[afc wimbledon]

What IF they do? Then it's possible that the CoG loses a tenant that would save taxpayers a whole whack of money moving forward....what does GWI do then?

I understand the estimates being bandied about are under scrutiny, and if they are wrong then no bond issue should happen or they will quickly find themselves in junk status.

However, that simply is not the case at this point and CoG can only go with what is in front of them, not on some politically driven group's desire to run interfence without proof either way.

I have no dog in this fight so to speak and am completely void of emotion about it either way. In fact, if you dont live in Winnipeg or QC or Phoenix or anywhere that this would directly affect things, Im not sure why anyone would care all that much about it. The team will play somewhere next year and someone elses money will be paying for it, that much is true. Beyond that the opponent for the Flames whether they be based on either side of the border is just that...an opponent.

The arguement as to whether the law makes sense is seperate from the arguement as to whether it makes sense to keep the coyotes by issuing bonds.

The GWI is a right wing advocacy group that is doing exactly what its supporters and a huge chunk of the population want, regardless of what that does to the city.

[taxbuster]

How does a private (non-elected) enterprise with a clear agenda, over-rule (by use of threat) elected officials of the public? .

Not sure what you mean by 'over-rule'. That is not what is happening. GI is a private think-tank dedicated (so they say) to protecting taxpayer rights.

The CoG is spending taxpayer money to assist a private enterprise in acquiring control of a team and an arena. (Actually they're not - they're borrowing money in order to do so, but in order to pay it back they have to spend taxpayer money. Similar, but there is a distinction.)

GI alleges that the parking revenue to which the CoG is entitled is insufficient to repay the debt plus interest.

Taxpayer money will fund the (alleged) deficiency. That could, under AZ law, be considered as 'conferring a gift from a public body to a private body' - something that is illegal under their law.

Definitely oversimplified, but this is little different than any watchdog group coming out and saying that they don't like some part of public policy.

Where it gets sticky is that GI said, during the period that CoG was trying to float the bond issue, that they might sue. That had two apparent effects, at least: it drove the interest rate up and it drove potential purchasers of the bonds away (so the CoG alleges). THAT could be construed as a form of interference, which, though not illegal, may be tortious interference.

(If your neighbour were selling his business to another neighbour and you went to the potential purchaser and said "the seller is a bum and shouldn't be trusted", you'd be in the same kind of position. You've interfered with someone else's business.) Or so CoG thinks apparently. And they believe that they can sue and win on that basis.

I don't know enough about AZ or US law to know whether *either* side could prevail - but it seems likely that GI could do enough to prevent the bond.

Although, in a delicious irony, it may be that the NHL chops the sale price by, oh, say fifty or sixty million, thereby costing each owner a couple of million. That'll make 'em happy with Gary, won't it?

[valo403]

I don't know if GWI is right, but they are saying the bond sale is an illegal gift. Shouldn't public officials be held accountable for illegal actions? Wouldn't that be more frightening if elected bodies could ignore the law?

Yes they should, but Goldwater isn't doing that, they're flooding the market with rumors and threats and making no effort to back it up. They're blowhards with an agenda, nothing more.

[valo403]

At face value I imagine the rational is that they're saving the taxpayer the tax revenue loss incurred by misestimates of the parking revenues used to back the municipal bond (ye ol' throwing good money after bad).

Frankly I don't see why the City didn't just refer the question as to whether the deal is constitutional to an Arizona court at the onset and avoid the whole pissing contest with GWI to begin with (or can they do that? I know gov't has done that in Canada). I mean it's not like anyone wouldn't have seen this coming a mile away given all that's happened over the past several years.

Nope. US Courts don't rule on hypotheticals.

[Resolute 14]

My guess is their own lawyers told them they would probably lose.

Your guess is stupid.

"Hey, if you do this, you will get sued and lose."
"Works for us, lets go with it."
:blink:

Seriously dude. Try actually thinking about what you are saying. The fact that Goldwater has not yet brought suit, but is really only threatening, could just as easily mean that they aren't convinced they would win in court and so are hoping to use threats to get their way.

At worst, I suspect lawyers on both sides aren't sure of the legality. And in that case, both sides are trying to bluff the other in the hopes of winning without a costly and drawn out court battle.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Seriously dude. Try actually thinking about what you are saying. The fact that Goldwater has not yet brought suit, but is really only threatening, could just as easily mean that they aren't convinced they would win in court and so are hoping to use threats to get their way.


Maybe if you paid any attention to this you would understand they can't actually sue until Glendale releases the bonds.

[JBR]

Maybe if you paid any attention to this you would understand they can't actually sue until Glendale releases the bonds.

And why would they spend the money and effort to file when the simple threat seems to be working just as well.

[Resolute 14]

Maybe if you paid any attention to this you would understand they can't actually sue until Glendale releases the bonds.

Fair enough. The remainder of my post stands, including the assertion that Goldwater is trying to bluff the city out.

[ogre2010]

Fair enough. The remainder of my post stands, including the assertion that Goldwater is trying to bluff the city out.

How is it a bluff? They have asked COG for all the documents for this transaction with Hulszier under freedom of info act. The city is trying to sell municple bonds to GIVE the proceeds to Hulszier to buy a private franchise, under the assumption they are buying parking rights from the team that the city already owns??? The City has guarnteed the bonds with excise taxes (public money) if they don't make enough money off of parking revenues from a parking lot that has never charged for parking before. Oh yeah they're also paying another 78 Million in fees for Hulszier to run the arena over the next 6 years. All GWI is saying that this deal is bad for tax payers, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck.... must be a duck. aka BAD DEAL for taxpayers.

[fokkerfan]

Does anyone know how many non-Coyote events take place at jobing.com arena? If they start charging for parking at these events how much money could they raise? Of course it would be all profit as there is no bond to pay back.

[valo403]

Maybe if you paid any attention to this you would understand they can't actually sue until Glendale releases the bonds.

Not true. They can sue for an injunction right now.

[ogre2010]

They have 6 NON-hockey events between now and OCT 7th!!! One of them is a YANI concert!!! LMAO!!

I was listening to a Winnipeg radio station and the Globe n Mail had a reported down there and he was walking around the parking lot on game day in the morning. He ran into a bunch of guys with all their hockey gear sitting on their tailgates. He thought they were tailgating so he when and talked to them. They weren't tailgating!!! They had just finished a shiny game in the arena and were sticking around for the game!!! The Coyotes chraged them each $15 for ice time and they threw in a ticket for the Yotes game later that night!!!! LMAO!! Now how are you going to charge for parking when it only costs $15 to PLAY a game of shiny in the arena and then get a ticket for the actual game later on!!! LMAO!! Could you imagine the line up at the Saddledome for a deal like this!!!!

[Jordan!]

They have 6 NON-hockey events between now and OCT 7th!!! One of them is a YANI concert!!! LMAO!!

I was listening to a Winnipeg radio station and the Globe n Mail had a reported down there and he was walking around the parking lot on game day in the morning. He ran into a bunch of guys with all their hockey gear sitting on their tailgates. He thought they were tailgating so he when and talked to them. They weren't tailgating!!! They had just finished a shiny game in the arena and were sticking around for the game!!! The Coyotes chraged them each $15 for ice time and they threw in a ticket for the Yotes game later that night!!!! LMAO!! Now how are you going to charge for parking when it only costs $15 to PLAY a game of shiny in the arena and then get a ticket for the actual game later on!!! LMAO!! Could you imagine the line up at the Saddledome for a deal like this!!!!

OMG!! LMAO!!! lollerskates!!!! More !!!!!!!!

Also, I'm calling BS on this because as a season ticket holder I was quoted a hell of alot more than that.

[Muta]

OMG!! LMAO!!! lollerskates!!!! More !!!!!!!!

Also, I'm calling BS on this because as a season ticket holder I was quoted a hell of alot more than that.

Try tailgating in the parking lot, they may offer you the ice for $15... and for some potato salad and a steak.

[blankall]

OMG!! LMAO!!! lollerskates!!!! More !!!!!!!!

Also, I'm calling BS on this because as a season ticket holder I was quoted a hell of alot more than that.

Not to mention a professional sport is about to be played on that ice...not sure how the NHL players would feel about a shinny game getting first crack at the ice..