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View Full Version : Striking gender (sex) from brith certificates. At what point is the line drawn?


llwhiteoutll
05-27-2015, 08:40 AM
This seems to be getting way out of hand. Where is the line drawn between legitimate human rights issue and needless litigation?

I haven't looked on mine, but I'm pretty sure the birth certificate identifies sex, not gender, which is a physiological certainty. Except in the rare case where sex is not identifiable. Gender is not identified, so they are arguing the wrong thing. I know my driver's license lists sex.

Not even going to ask what is up with the "only spells her name in lower case" thing.

After successfully lobbying provincial and federal governments to make it easier to amend sex designations on key identity documents, transgender Canadians are now pushing for another change: to abolish gender references altogether from birth certificates.

The B.C. Human Rights Tribunal has agreed to review complaints filed by the Trans Alliance Society and a handful of transgender and intersex individuals, who argue that doctors should stop assigning the sex of a baby based on a quick inspection of the baby’s genitals at birth when there’s a possibility they may identify under a different gender, or no gender, years later.

“Birth certificates (may) give false information about people and characterize them in a way that is actually wrong, that assumes to be right, and causes people … actual harm,” said Morgane Oger, a transgender woman in Vancouver and chair of the society.

“It’s considered true and infallible when it isn’t.”

Governments have been receptive in recent years to calls to make it easier for people to change the sex on their personal records. Several provinces, including B.C., Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and Nova Scotia, no longer require a person to have undergone sex-reassignment surgery before they can request a change to the gender designation on their birth certificates.

Earlier this year, Citizenship and Immigration Canada announced that it, too, would no longer require proof of sex-reassignment surgery in order to change the sex designation on a citizenship certificate. It now will accept an amended birth certificate.

But advocates say the changes do not go far enough because governments are still certifying as true information recorded at birth which they know may be wrong in some cases.

The current regime falsely presumes there are two genders, that genders never change and that you can tell a child’s gender at birth, said Vancouver human rights lawyer barbara findlay, who is representing the complainants and spells her name in all lower case.

“That means that children are raised ‘as’ the birth-assigned gender, which is a crazy-making experience. Instead of living in a social reality that recognizes that gender develops, and does not exist at birth, those children have nothing to work with except that something feels profoundly wrong,” she said via email.

“Getting to the stage of being able to ‘change’ gender is an anguishing process, in which a child often experiences severe pushback from their own families.”

The only way, she said, to know one’s gender identity is to ask that person. “At law, gender identity trumps what is between one’s legs.”

One of the complainants is Harriette Cunningham, a Comox, B.C. girl who was labelled “male” at birth, and was among the first in the province last year to successfully have her gender re-designated on her birth certificate.
According to the complaint filed on her behalf by her parents, Colin and Megan Cunningham, “Harriette was mistakenly assigned the gender ‘male’ at birth. Having any gender marker on her birth certificate has contributed significantly to discrimination based on her gender, at school and in the world.

“Since it is impossible to tell an individual’s gender at birth it is discriminatory to issue a birth certificate with that information on it.”
However, those advocating the elimination of gender designations on birth certificates are likely to face big challenges, said Karen Busby, a University of Manitoba law professor and director of the Centre for Human Rights Research.

PeteMoss
05-27-2015, 08:42 AM
Is there a reason why it has be on there?

PsYcNeT
05-27-2015, 08:43 AM
Always good to start a thread with a slippery slope argument.

llwhiteoutll
05-27-2015, 08:45 AM
Always good to start a thread with a slippery slope argument.

Fair enough. I edited the wording.

chemgear
05-27-2015, 08:49 AM
Ms_WY0s_1XM

The Ditch
05-27-2015, 09:03 AM
doesn't affect my life in the slightest, so why would I care? You should stop with the false outrage and worry over things that don't matter.

CaptainCrunch
05-27-2015, 09:06 AM
Put three check marks on the certificate

Male, female, opt out

polak
05-27-2015, 09:14 AM
Put three check marks on the certificate

Male, female, opt out

Considering it's the parents that would be deciding and not an adult capable of making the identification themselves, I don't know if I like this but as long as it's not permanent then I guess it doesn't matter.

Removing it doesn't really matter unless we're talking about statistics...

CaptainCrunch
05-27-2015, 09:17 AM
I don't know if I was being serious in my first response, it was flippant.

The tracking of statistics is important, and the only way that you can ascertain sex at birth is with the old sight test, or a genetic test.

The obvious fix is to make it easier to change gender at a later date.

Daradon
05-27-2015, 09:47 AM
Yeah, they were saying that Germany changed it, but it's screwing up their record keeping and document processing (like passports and licenses).

As CC mentioned, stats are also important. From things to funding for various programs like education, or figuring out mortality rates, etc.

I'm not against them changing it, but we have to figure out how to rework the areas of the system that will be affected first. Doing it after will be far more costly, time consuming, and painful for all involved.

Tinordi
05-27-2015, 09:52 AM
Will society be able to withstand this most recent heavy assault on the delicate fabric that holds it together?

Stay tuned...

undercoverbrother
05-27-2015, 09:57 AM
Will society be able to withstand this most recent heavy assault on the delicate fabric that holds it together?

Stay tuned...


The concerns and terror are real.......very real.....


http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/05/26/3662750/rubio-hate-speech-religious-freedom/


In a new interview with David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network featured on Tuesday’s episode (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/marco-rubio-gay-rights-real-and-present-danger-freedom) of The 700 Club, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) warned that the momentum of marriage equality and other LGBT equality advances pose a threat to religious freedom. Specifically, he worried about the impact of categorizing opposition to LGBT equality as “hate speech.”
“We are at the water’s edge of the argument that mainstream Christian teaching is hate speech,” he explained, “because today we’ve reached the point in our society where if you do not support same-sex marriage, you are labeled a homophobe and a hater. So what’s the next step after that, after they’re done going after individuals? The next step is to argue that the teachings of mainstream Christianity, the catechism of the Catholic Church, is hate speech. That’s a real and present danger.”

polak
05-27-2015, 10:06 AM
Good. Most of the discrimination preached by Christians should be hate speech.

People look to religious leaders for guidance and authority and some of the time, they preach some pretty hateful sh*t.

Will society be able to withstand this most recent heavy assault on the delicate fabric that holds it together?

Stay tuned...

Keeping track of sex statistics is pretty important...

Erick Estrada
05-27-2015, 10:09 AM
“Since it is impossible to tell an individual’s gender at birth it is discriminatory to issue a birth certificate with that information on it.”
However, those advocating the elimination of gender designations on birth certificates are likely to face big challenges, said Karen Busby, a University of Manitoba law professor and director of the Centre for Human Rights Research.


This is incorrect as biologically it's 100% certainty at birth what gender the child is. Yes it's possible to for a person to grow up with a different gender identity but we simply can't start ignoring science. As has been said there's important stats that maintained that require gender differentiation. There are certain health risks that are gender specific from birth on and IMO this is simply going too far.

undercoverbrother
05-27-2015, 10:10 AM
Good. Most of the discrimination preached by Christians should be hate speech.

People look to religious leaders for guidance and authority and some of the time, they preach some pretty hateful sh*t.



Keeping track of sex statistics is pretty important...

Why?

llwhiteoutll
05-27-2015, 10:15 AM
Why?

Birth, mortality, life span and rate of disease off the top of my head.


This is incorrect as biologically it's 100% certainty at birth what gender the child is. Yes it's possible to for a person to grow up with a different gender identity but we simply can't start ignoring science. As has been said there's important stats that maintained that require gender differentiation. There are certain health risks that are gender specific from birth on and IMO this is simply going too far.

I think it could be argued that the term "gender" has evolved over the course of the last x amount of years. Replacing "gender" with "sex" on all identifying documents can accomplish the same thing, but in what seems like a more PC manner.

Identify as whatever you want, but your biological sex is recorded. If you want to change that down the road, go nuts, there are already methods in place now to change that.

Erick Estrada
05-27-2015, 10:16 AM
Why?

At the end of the day a person that was born a man can choose to be a woman but that doesn't change the fact that she will be will share a male's susceptibility to colon cancer. You need to know biological gender (sex or whatever you want to call it) to ensure the medical profession is giving the proper care to patients.

polak
05-27-2015, 10:18 AM
Why?

Because biology doesn't care what a person identifies as?

Bmuzyka
05-27-2015, 10:18 AM
This whole gender issue seems to get out of hand. We have a genuine mental illness, and its only current treatment is body modification. I really don't think its healthy to push this on kids.

We have these stories of parents making these huge deals because their son or daughter says they are the opposite gender at 5 or 6, and wanting schools and facilities to bend over backwards. I would argue that this behavior of the parents is in the same line of making sure every kid is a winner and don't ever let kids experience defeat because we don't want to scar their egos.

I am not trying to be hateful, I just don't know where it ends, or even what the proper solution is.

undercoverbrother
05-27-2015, 10:21 AM
At the end of the day a person that was born a man can choose to be a woman but that doesn't change the fact that she will be will share a male's susceptibility to colon cancer. You need to know biological gender (sex or whatever you want to call it) to ensure the medical profession is giving the proper care to patients.

Yeah maybe, but is the treatment/preventative medicine for cancer different for genders?

Bmuzyka
05-27-2015, 10:24 AM
Yeah maybe, but is the treatment/preventative medicine for cancer different for genders?

I think dosing could quite possibly be affected. Preventative Medicine also could be different. Look at Multi-Vitamins, men and women have different day to day requirements.

llwhiteoutll
05-27-2015, 10:31 AM
Yeah maybe, but is the treatment/preventative medicine for cancer different for genders?

Different screening tests/ exams for sure. Doubling the load on prostate screening and mammograms seems like a great idea for an already stressed medical system

CaptainCrunch
05-27-2015, 10:32 AM
Yeah maybe, but is the treatment/preventative medicine for cancer different for genders?


Are we now separating gender vs sex in the context of your statement?

Because yes, different sexes have different cancer risks and different chances of getting certain types of disease or cancers.


I guess at some point, society is going to have to differentiate gender identity and sex in documentation.

if you were biologically born as a boy but identify as a girl, even if you get the body modification changes, you are still going to be hit by some diseases based on your birth sex.

Matata
05-27-2015, 10:44 AM
I've really tried to empathize with transgenders, but I don't get it at all. I'm happy to live and let live, but having your dick chopped up and stuffed inside you, followed by ingesting an expensive chemical cocktail of drugs everyday just so you can be 'you', I will never wrap my head around.

octothorp
05-27-2015, 10:51 AM
I don't think that striking sex from birth certificates is going to have any real-world effects, positive or negative, on children. 99.9% of parents are still going to raise their children as a boy or a girl based on physiology. And if parents are the sort who are going to try and raise their child in a genderless way, the presence or omission of sex on the birth certificate isn't going to have a big impact on those practices; people (from educators to doctors) are still going to ask the parent what sex or gender their child is.

I don't doubt that growing up as a transgendered youth is an extremely difficult experience. It's also going to be extremely difficult for society to adapt to fully accomodate the rights of transgendered individuals, especially at young ages. Things as basic as washroom designation are going to create problems, and I don't think putting themselves on a collision course with crazy PTAs is the right path for the transgendered rights movement.

From what I can tell, a lot of the challenges facing a transgendered youth is that they're being directed towards certain behaviours and stereotypes based on their sex, behaviours that feel unnatural and uncomfortable to them. So my question is this: is it easier to solve this by trying to remove all mentions of gender in the environments we have for our youth; or is it easier to solve this by trying to create environments where gender behaviours and stereotypes are not reinforced and encouraged outside of the home? And similarly, is it better to have an environment where children don't know what their gender is; or is it better to have an environment where children don't care what their gender is because it has no bearing on anything important to them? I'd lean towards the latter on both questions, but I'd be interested in hearing arguments from the other side.

CaptainCrunch
05-27-2015, 11:06 AM
I don't think that striking sex from birth certificates is going to have any real-world effects, positive or negative, on children. 99.9% of parents are still going to raise their children as a boy or a girl based on physiology. And if parents are the sort who are going to try and raise their child in a genderless way, the presence or omission of sex on the birth certificate isn't going to have a big impact on those practices; people (from educators to doctors) are still going to ask the parent what sex or gender their child is.

I don't doubt that growing up as a transgendered youth is an extremely difficult experience. It's also going to be extremely difficult for society to adapt to fully accomodate the rights of transgendered individuals, especially at young ages. Things as basic as washroom designation are going to create problems, and I don't think putting themselves on a collision course with crazy PTAs is the right path for the transgendered rights movement.

From what I can tell, a lot of the challenges facing a transgendered youth is that they're being directed towards certain behaviours and stereotypes based on their sex, behaviours that feel unnatural and uncomfortable to them. So my question is this: is it easier to solve this by trying to remove all mentions of gender in the environments we have for our youth; or is it easier to solve this by trying to create environments where gender behaviours and stereotypes are not reinforced and encouraged outside of the home? And similarly, is it better to have an environment where children don't know what their gender is; or is it better to have an environment where children don't care what their gender is because it has no bearing on anything important to them? I'd lean towards the latter on both questions, but I'd be interested in hearing arguments from the other side.

Ok, I'm probably going to look like a bozo engaging into this, I'm not an expert on the Transgendered world.

However, do statistics really bear out a entire overhauling of the system. Creating genderless environments might work for what I think is a small minority, but would possibly create problems or resentment for the kids who's sex or gender is not in questions.

And at what age/grade does the non gender environment end?

Are we going to create a whole age group that all wear the same pant suits and have the same bowl haircuts? Because gender identity is really going to force itself through and if you try to supress it, is it not going to cause the same kind of identity crisis that the Transgendered are feeling now.

I think that approach is akin to apply a hammer to an ant.

I think you have to look at how you educate kids on the whole transgender, gender identity question, but that doesn't mean that you have to completely ignore gender.

Just statistically it doesn't make sense to over haul the system when the smarter route is how you ad to the education within the system.

In a 2011 report by the Williams institute it stated that .3% of the American population had identified itself as transgendered.

I just can't agree that supressing gender like that or making genderless schools is the way to go, I think it might make things worse rather then better.

I think that creating awareness, and looking at the protective laws is probably the better way to go.

EldrickOnIce
05-27-2015, 11:16 AM
Statistically, for medical purposes, gender is critical. I'm not certain it needs to start at birth, but it must start somewhere.
Making the process simple to change, as desired, is not enough?

GGG
05-27-2015, 11:25 AM
How does the concept of gender manifest itself in children? Its obviously more than billy likes to wear a dress and play with dolls. How does a child or anyone identify as a gender.

Outside of genitalia what is maleness or femaleness other than stereotypes? I just dont understand this.

Demographically it should be recorded and is important butif it is listed or not on the birth certificate doesnt really mattwr

CliffFletcher
05-27-2015, 11:42 AM
How does the concept of gender manifest itself in children? Its obviously more than billy likes to wear a dress and play with dolls. How does a child or anyone identify as a gender.

Outside of genitalia what is maleness or femaleness other than stereotypes? I just dont understand this.

Male and female children, even at very young ages, tend to demonstrate different characteristics as groups. Five year old boys play differently than five year old girls. Boys are rowdier. Girls tend to be more eager to please. Boys hit each other a lot. Girls exclude children they are mad at.

Of course, these are not absolute. Any given child may defy the norm. But the norms are there. And they can't be accounted for entirely by environment and socialization. Even among siblings you'll often see marked differences between boys a girls. I have twins - a boy and a girl - who we've raised in as close to an identical environment as it's possible to raise two humans in, and without any encouragement of traditional gender roles. But they are very, very different kids. And their differences map closely to those normative differences we tend to see between boys and girls. The boy impatient and delighted by things smashing other things. The girl sensitive to the expectations of others and eager to please.

And if you want to see those differences in action, watch a soccer practice with a team of 6-7 year old boys, and then watch one with a team of 6-7 year old girls. The difference is dramatic.

MrMastodonFarm
05-27-2015, 11:44 AM
I've really tried to empathize with transgenders, but I don't get it at all. I'm happy to live and let live, but having your dick chopped up and stuffed inside you, followed by ingesting an expensive chemical cocktail of drugs everyday just so you can be 'you', I will never wrap my head around.

Glad we got that out of the way.

PsYcNeT
05-27-2015, 11:45 AM
Male and female children, even at very young ages, tend to demonstrate different characteristics as groups. Five year old boys play differently than five year old girls. Boys are rowdier. Girls tend to be more eager to please. Boys hit each other a lot. Girls exclude children they are mad at.

Of course, these are not absolute. Any given child may defy the norm. But the norms are there. And they can't be accounted for entirely by environment and socialization. Even among siblings you'll often see marked differences between boys a girls. I have twins - a boy and a girl - who we've raised in as close to an identical environment as it's possible to raise two humans in, and without any encouragement of traditional gender roles. But they are very, very different kids. And their differences map closely to those normative differences we tend to see between boys and girls. The boy impatient and delighted by things smashing other things. The girl sensitive to the expectations of others and eager to please.

And if you want to see those differences in action, watch a soccer practice with a team of 6-7 year old boys, and then watch one with a team of 6-7 year old girls. The difference is dramatic.

But is this a result of nature or nurture? What would the variance in externalized action be if all were raised in a gender-neutral environment?

Saying something is a certain way with without accounting for variances in environment says nothing about the result.

Cube Inmate
05-27-2015, 11:45 AM
These people (the vocal advocates, not transgendered in general) want to live in a world that's void of objective facts. Well, I feel sorry for you if an objective fact makes you subjectively feel badly, but that doesn't mean we need to change the facts. It means we need to work to help you live with the facts.

I'm not minimizing the impact of the subjective. Feelings are real, and people's behaviours based on those feelings (suicide, discrimination) can be legitimately harmful. But THAT's what needs to be focused on -- changing people's responses to facts, NOT on trying to hide the problems by changing the facts.

Edit:

To be perfectly clear, I'll admit that "gender" could easily be defined as a subjective self-identification, and therefore has no place on a birth certificate. That's not to say it isn't REAL -- only that it's dependent on the individual's own perception. Genitalia and chromosomes are not in that category, though.

PsYcNeT
05-27-2015, 11:46 AM
These people (the vocal advocates, not transgendered in general) want to live in a world that's void of objective facts. Well, I feel sorry for you if an objective fact makes you subjectively feel badly, but that doesn't mean we need to change the facts. It means we need to work to help you live with the facts.

I'm not minimizing the impact of the subjective. Feelings are real, and people's behaviours based on those feelings (suicide, discrimination) can be legitimately harmful. But THAT's what needs to be focused on -- changing people's responses to facts, NOT on trying to hide the problems by changing the facts.

Wait are you advocating a kind of straight-camp for those who have issues with their gender identity?

Cube Inmate
05-27-2015, 11:56 AM
Wait are you advocating a kind of straight-camp for those who have issues with their gender identity?

No, I'm obviously advocating concentration camps and gas chambers.

<Godwinned>

But seriously -- since you can't even seem to distinguish "sexual orientation" from "gender identity," it would be pretty futile for me to try to explain (again) my point.

CliffFletcher
05-27-2015, 11:57 AM
But is this a result of nature or nurture? What would the variance in externalized action be if all were raised in a gender-neutral environment?

Saying something is a certain way with without accounting for variances in environment says nothing about the result.

Males and females, as a group, have innate differences that are biologically mapped. That isn't a popular truth, politically, but it doesn't make it any less true. And just because environment can shape behaviour, doesn't mean we should discount evidence that biology also shapes behavior (and not just along gender lines).

My children were virtually never away from the presence of each other - never introduced to varying environmental stimuli - for the first five years of their lives. You'll have to take my word for it that my wife and I didn't impose gender expectations on them. And yet even by 18 months they demonstrated dramatically different temperaments and capabilities. And I'm not talking differences only parents would notice. Their kindergarten teacher remarked that they were two of the most different kids she had ever taught. I find it impossible to believe those differences could be accounted for my subtle variations in tones of voices used by adults around them, or the color of their hats, or that the characters in some of the stories they read were modeled on traditional gender roles.

I recommend Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5752.The_Blank_Slate?from_search=true&search_version=service) for a well-substantiated corrective to popular notions about the origins of behaviour.

PsYcNeT
05-27-2015, 11:58 AM
No, I'm obviously advocating concentration camps and gas chambers.

<Godwinned>

But seriously -- since you can't even seem to distinguish "sexual orientation" from "gender identity," it would be pretty futile for me to try to explain (again) my point.

I'm just wondering who you are proposing we try to educate when it comes to "facts".
Males and females, as a group, have innate differences that are biologically mapped. That isn't a popular truth, politically, but it doesn't make it any less true. And just because environment can shape behaviour, doesn't mean we should discount evidence that biology also shapes behavior (and not just along gender lines).

My children were virtually never away from the presence of each other - never introduced to varying environmental stimuli - for the first five years of their lives. You'll have to take my word for it that my wife and I didn't impose and gender expectations on them. And yet even by 18 months they demonstrated dramatically different temperaments and capabilities. I find it impossible to believe those differences could be accounted for my subtle variations in tones of voices used by adults around them, or the color of their hats, or the fact one child ate a few more green beans than another.

I recommend Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5752.The_Blank_Slate?from_search=true&search_version=service) for a well-substantiated corrective to popular notions about the origins of behaviour.

But your experience is just that; your personal experience.

There is obviously something that occurs for some people that even when pushed within gender-specific boxes they feel the need to break out, so it stands to reason that without the environmental stimuli there would be a higher incidence of variance from the mean binaries.

EldrickOnIce
05-27-2015, 11:58 AM
How does the concept of gender manifest itself in children? Its obviously more than billy likes to wear a dress and play with dolls. How does a child or anyone identify as a gender.

Outside of genitalia what is maleness or femaleness other than stereotypes? I just dont understand this.

Demographically it should be recorded and is important butif it is listed or not on the birth certificate doesnt really mattwr
But recorded how then?
A birth certificate is used for exactly that purpose - and is a legal document.
I don't care that it's on a birth certificate or not, but it must be somewhere, for legal purposes.

puckedoff
05-27-2015, 12:04 PM
Just change the check box to "Has a penis" , and "Doesn't has a penis"

octothorp
05-27-2015, 12:11 PM
Ok, I'm probably going to look like a bozo engaging into this, I'm not an expert on the Transgendered world.


Not at all, at least I don't think you're making a bozo argument, although I'm no more an expert than you are. Much of what you're saying is the same argument I'm making, that overhauling the system to make it genderless would be extremely difficult and have a lot of opponents and challenges and may not actually solve a lot.

But I don't think making a system that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes is necessarily that huge a transformation. Making sure that children are able to engage in the types of play and interaction that best suit them, regardless of gender, is something that should be done anyway. If a boy wants to wear pink, or a girl wants to play red rover or whatever physical game is being played on the playground these days, the school environment should be accepting and even encouraging of that. And if kids want to exactly align with their expected gender stereotypes, that should be accepted too. And those aren't exclusively transgender issues. A child doesn't need to be transgendered to differ from their gender's expected behavior.

Perhaps I'm simplifying what the actual challenges for a trangendered youth are. It would be a lot easier to discuss if the article listed some examples of the actual situations that an individual is challenged by, so we can say 'this can be resolved at a teacher/supervisor/classroom level', vs. 'this could only be solved through systemic overhaul'. Is being required to use a boy's bathroom really impacting the child, or is it more about being expected to dress/play/act a certain way? If it's the latter, then changing expectations is relatively achievable.

Cube Inmate
05-27-2015, 12:20 PM
I'm just wondering who you are proposing we try to educate when it comes to "facts".


Ok; I'll respond seriously:

I'm proposing we educate

ourselves, societally, on the difference between biological sex and gender, and then learn to treat others equitably based on which of those things matters (medically, based on chromosomes and body parts; socially, legally, culturally, etc., based on self-identification),
those whose feelings are being hurt by exposure to objective facts, to better manage their own responses and behaviours.


On the first point above, I don't have any personal, subjective experience on what it "feels like" to be in a wrong-sexed body. In fact, I couldn't even describe what it feels like to be a "man" -- I could only describe what it feels like to be "me," and what I *think* it would feel like to be a woman. But based on the number of people who go through this, I'm willing to accept that some people just "know" that they're another gender. So, it's a matter of educating me on what people like that need, and what they feel like, so I can
treat them more how they want to be treated. But don't screw up a whole objective, scientifically valid system of records (with statistical value) just to prevent people like me from accidentally calling you "Mr. Wang" instead of "Ms. Wang."

On the second point, a LOT of people have trouble dealing with various facts, and need to learn to manage their cognitive and behavioural responses better. Pretty big psychotherapy industry out there based on this. I don't ask that we change my birth records to hide the fact that my father was Charles Manson. Instead, I work (maybe with therapy?) to better manage how I think and feel when people mention my murderous father. I wouldn't ask my doctor to delete the fact that I was born with a tail from my medical records, even if I'd since had it surgically removed.

Igottago
05-27-2015, 12:22 PM
I don't see why it has to go that far, it already says many provinces give people the right to make changes to their birth records even without any kind of surgery.

So if you are born a male, who has yet to develop any sense of identity or gender awareness, you are still physically a male at that time. If for whatever reason, hopefully years later as a fully informed adult who is making their own decision, you want to change it, change it.

Why does everyone to conform to the same ambiguity just because a few people here and there will experience it. Sometimes facts are just facts. These people are ignoring science as much as the loony toon religious fundamentals are when they denounce the LGBT community.

Fozzie_DeBear
05-27-2015, 12:37 PM
This is incorrect as biologically it's 100% certainty at birth what gender the child is. Yes it's possible to for a person to grow up with a different gender identity but we simply can't start ignoring science. As has been said there's important stats that maintained that require gender differentiation. There are certain health risks that are gender specific from birth on and IMO this is simply going too far.

All the intersex people (hermaphrodites) would disagree...

EldrickOnIce
05-27-2015, 12:37 PM
Ok; I'll respond seriously:

I'm proposing we educate

ourselves, societally, on the difference between biological sex and gender, and then learn to treat others equitably based on which of those things matters (medically, based on chromosomes and body parts; socially, legally, culturally, etc., based on self-identification),
those whose feelings are being hurt by exposure to objective facts, to better manage their own responses and behaviours.


On the first point above, I don't have any personal, subjective experience on what it "feels like" to be in a wrong-sexed body. In fact, I couldn't even describe what it feels like to be a "man" -- I could only describe what it feels like to be "me," and what I *think* it would feel like to be a woman. But based on the number of people who go through this, I'm willing to accept that some people just "know" that they're another gender. So, it's a matter of educating me on what people like that need, and what they feel like, so I can
treat them more how they want to be treated. But don't screw up a whole objective, scientifically valid system of records (with statistical value) just to prevent people like me from accidentally calling you "Mr. Wang" instead of "Ms. Wang."

On the second point, a LOT of people have trouble dealing with various facts, and need to learn to manage their cognitive and behavioural responses better. Pretty big psychotherapy industry out there based on this. I don't ask that we change my birth records to hide the fact that my father was Charles Manson. Instead, I work (maybe with therapy?) to better manage how I think and feel when people mention my murderous father. I wouldn't ask my doctor to delete the fact that I was born with a tail from my medical records, even if I'd since had it surgically removed.

Drop the mic and leave the stage, good sir.
The show is now over

PsYcNeT
05-27-2015, 12:48 PM
Ok; I'll respond seriously:

I'm proposing we educate

ourselves, societally, on the difference between biological sex and gender, and then learn to treat others equitably based on which of those things matters (medically, based on chromosomes and body parts; socially, legally, culturally, etc., based on self-identification),
those whose feelings are being hurt by exposure to objective facts, to better manage their own responses and behaviours.


On the first point above, I don't have any personal, subjective experience on what it "feels like" to be in a wrong-sexed body. In fact, I couldn't even describe what it feels like to be a "man" -- I could only describe what it feels like to be "me," and what I *think* it would feel like to be a woman. But based on the number of people who go through this, I'm willing to accept that some people just "know" that they're another gender. So, it's a matter of educating me on what people like that need, and what they feel like, so I can
treat them more how they want to be treated. But don't screw up a whole objective, scientifically valid system of records (with statistical value) just to prevent people like me from accidentally calling you "Mr. Wang" instead of "Ms. Wang."

On the second point, a LOT of people have trouble dealing with various facts, and need to learn to manage their cognitive and behavioural responses better. Pretty big psychotherapy industry out there based on this. I don't ask that we change my birth records to hide the fact that my father was Charles Manson. Instead, I work (maybe with therapy?) to better manage how I think and feel when people mention my murderous father. I wouldn't ask my doctor to delete the fact that I was born with a tail from my medical records, even if I'd since had it surgically removed.

While I appreciate this post, it's major flaw lies in the assumption that sex lies strictly within observable traits, eg the existence of a penis.

More data is coming out that neurological sex differences are as important in the manifestation of gender identity as the sex organs.

A good outline starts here, it's even discussed in the abstract:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/7/2241.full

GGG
05-27-2015, 12:56 PM
Males and females, as a group, have innate differences that are biologically mapped. That isn't a popular truth, politically, but it doesn't make it any less true. And just because environment can shape behaviour, doesn't mean we should discount evidence that biology also shapes behavior (and not just along gender lines).

My children were virtually never away from the presence of each other - never introduced to varying environmental stimuli - for the first five years of their lives. You'll have to take my word for it that my wife and I didn't impose gender expectations on them. And yet even by 18 months they demonstrated dramatically different temperaments and capabilities. And I'm not talking differences only parents would notice. Their kindergarten teacher remarked that they were two of the most different kids she had ever taught. I find it impossible to believe those differences could be accounted for my subtle variations in tones of voices used by adults around them, or the color of their hats, or that the characters in some of the stories they read were modeled on traditional gender roles.

I recommend Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5752.The_Blank_Slate?from_search=true&search_version=service) for a well-substantiated corrective to popular notions about the origins of behaviour.

But those are all external behaviours. You really saying here Billy wears a dress. How does that external behaviour translate into feeling you are in the wrong body. There are plenty of feminin men and masculine females who identify with their gender so something else is there beyond just liking non gender traditional things.

Also if you had two boys or two girls you would see them as very different as well. I have a dainty one and one that smashes as well as any boy.

I guess what i dont understand is that I dont feel male. I am male. Me being male is no different then me being tall or having blue eyes. All traits which physically define me but you could change any of them and I wouldn't think that those traits weren't me.

DoubleF
05-27-2015, 01:16 PM
Edit: Nvm..

Cube Inmate
05-27-2015, 01:41 PM
While I appreciate this post, it's major flaw lies in the assumption that sex lies strictly within observable traits, eg the existence of a penis.

More data is coming out that neurological sex differences are as important in the manifestation of gender identity as the sex organs.

A good outline starts here, it's even discussed in the abstract:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/7/2241.full

Thanks for the link. I read the abstract and skimmed the rest.

I don't agree that my thinking has the major flaw you suggest. I'd argue that I'm suggesting that we reduce assumptions by clearly defining "sex" based on things that are known to be binary. Genes, except in rare abnormalities, are binary in one small area (you've either got an XX or an XY) -- but it's an area that has a huge impact on development (including neurological). We're fortunate that a person's genes are typically pretty clearly identified by the observable traits between their legs; I'm not suggesting that the observable trait itself is the only difference between the sexes, but it's a pretty reliable indicator of the genes.

troutman
05-27-2015, 02:48 PM
“The Gethenians do not see one another as men or women. This is almost impossible for our imaginations to accept. After all, what is the first question we ask about a newborn baby? ....there is no division of humanity into strong and weak halves, protected/ protective. One is respected and judged only as a human being. You cannot cast a Gethnian in the role of Man or Woman, while adopting towards 'him' a corresponding role dependant on your expetations of the interactions between persons of the same or oppositve sex. It is an appalling experience for a Terran ”
― Ursula K. Le Guin (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/874602.Ursula_K_Le_Guin), The Left Hand of Darkness (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/817527)

jwslam
05-27-2015, 03:18 PM
Put three check marks on the certificate

Male, female, opt outStatistically, for medical purposes, gender is critical. I'm not certain it needs to start at birth, but it must start somewhere.
Making the process simple to change, as desired, is not enough?
So maybe the undeniable boxes are penis or vagina or other (which now includes the 1 in 100,000+ cases)

CliffFletcher
05-27-2015, 03:27 PM
Anyone who speaks in the English language and perceives they can do a completely genderless upbringing is kidding themselves. Gender is built into the language. There are no proper neutrals that are commonly used. Without going deep into my interest in sociology, the below are examples of a non-gender neutral language. Once you learn to see it, it can get annoying.

I don't think anyone can make that claim. However, just because differences in the use of language (and in the color of walls and toys) can have some influence on a child, that doesn't meant all differences are environmental. Degrees of things matter. Most parents in Canada today place far less emphasis on their kids meeting gender roles than parents did 30 or 50 or 100 years ago. And yet I don't think the behaviour of young boys and girls, as a group, has changed as dramatically, and I don't believe social and environmental gender neutrality, no matter how rigorously applied, could make a group of 100 young boys indistinguishable from 100 young girls in their behavior.

Nage Waza
05-27-2015, 06:29 PM
Just change the check box to "Has a penis" , and "Doesn't has a penis"

I thought that is all it meant. Maybe we go to penis, vagina, both, neither, other?

The indication obviously has nothing to do with gender.

Handsome B. Wonderful
05-27-2015, 08:31 PM
The B.C. Human Rights Tribunal has agreed to review complaints filed by the Trans Alliance Society and a handful of transgender and intersex individuals, who argue that doctors should stop assigning the sex of a baby based on a quick inspection of the baby’s genitals at birth when there’s a possibility they may identify under a different gender, or no gender, years later.

“Birth certificates (may) give false information about people and characterize them in a way that is actually wrong, that assumes to be right, and causes people … actual harm,” said Morgane Oger, a transgender woman in Vancouver and chair of the society.

“It’s considered true and infallible when it isn’t.”It's good to know there's people who want to let imagination trump reality and treat the baby's genitals as irrelevant.

I guess that means we no longer have to worry about what direction we're wiping just because the baby has a vagina. Biology is apparently no longer relevant.

gargamel
05-27-2015, 08:47 PM
There is obviously something that occurs for some people that even when pushed within gender-specific boxes they feel the need to break out, so it stands to reason that without the environmental stimuli there would be a higher incidence of variance from the mean binaries.

I agree with everything that you said, but is it desirable to encourage a higher incidence of variance (if, as you imply, gender is at least somewhat dependent on nurture) considering the fact that transgendered people are so much more likely to suffer from depression and commit suicide?

We absolutely need to create a society where anyone who feels that they are the wrong gender is comfortable sharing that fact with the world and being themselves, but I don't know that reducing environmental stimuli and thereby causing more people to feel that they are the wrong gender is the answer. Or would eliminating environmental stimuli result in transgendered people being no more likely to suffer from depression, so it actually is the answer?

I don't know the answers to my own questions. This topic is confusing.

polak
05-28-2015, 11:47 AM
It's good to know there's people who want to let imagination trump reality and treat the baby's genitals as irrelevant.

I guess that means we no longer have to worry about what direction we're wiping just because the baby has a vagina. Biology is apparently no longer relevant.

Yeah this seems a bit much to me.

No one is taking away transgender rights. It's just simple biology and the decision takes place BEFORE the baby actually grows up. We have a system in place which allows that decision to be changed should a fully grown adult with decision making abilities choose to do so.

Whats the end game for these organizations? I'm really curious.

I don't know the answers to my own questions. This topic is confusing.

It's cause there is no solution. Humans are a product of their environment. Every species is a product of it's environment. There is no way we can act as a gender neutral society. The only thing we can do is educate and practice acceptance.

That is much easier than some how trying to eliminate gender from the world.

CliffFletcher
05-28-2015, 01:01 PM
Whats the end game for these organizations?

There is no end game. Social advocacy is no longer about simply tolerating differences, or reducing harm to the downtrodden. It's about signalling. People who promote their identity as progressives (though they're the last people who will ever recognize progress) need to prove their dedication to the cause by relentlessly calling for recognition, for apology, and for redress. Practical considerations like implementing policy aren't important.

In five years I expect some new sub-set of humanity will be picked up as a banner for the zealots to wave. For the ideologues, the important thing isn't measurable and tangible change (which, again, will not be acknowledged even if it happens), but to burnish their reputation for righteousness. It helps if you think of it as a modern, secular religion.

jayswin
05-28-2015, 06:34 PM
I've really tried to empathize with transgenders, but I don't get it at all. I'm happy to live and let live, but having your dick chopped up and stuffed inside you, followed by ingesting an expensive chemical cocktail of drugs everyday just so you can be 'you', I will never wrap my head around.

Really? You honestly can't wrap your head around it? Have you ever watched any specials or documentaries on it?

It's really easy to wrap your head around, like stupidly easy.

#-3
05-28-2015, 10:33 PM
This whole gender issue seems to get out of hand. We have a genuine mental illness, and its only current treatment is body modification. I really don't think its healthy to push this on kids.

We have these stories of parents making these huge deals because their son or daughter says they are the opposite gender at 5 or 6, and wanting schools and facilities to bend over backwards. I would argue that this behavior of the parents is in the same line of making sure every kid is a winner and don't ever let kids experience defeat because we don't want to scar their egos.

I am not trying to be hateful, I just don't know where it ends, or even what the proper solution is.

I pretty much agree.

At what point in time are parents of young girls going to have a problem with this School board decision in Edmonton?

I think these kids are only 7 right now, but in 4 or 5 years when they get to junior high is this (boy?/girl?) going to be using the girls locker room in gym class.

Is a 7 year old even capable of identifying as a different gender.

When somebody makes these claims at such a young age who much does the parent realistically have to do with this, because even if they know something is off I'm not sure a kid that young could really express themselves well enough to explain the problem.

I know its a complicated thing and you don't want to hurt this kids feelings. But a some point in time a line will need to drawn, and I foresee this issue coming back when he/she gets to locker room age in gym class.

Textcritic
05-29-2015, 05:22 AM
No one is taking away transgender rights. It's just simple biology and the decision takes place BEFORE the baby actually grows up. We have a system in place which allows that decision to be changed should a fully grown adult with decision making abilities choose to do so.
I think I agree with this, insofar as the problem is definitely NOT with sex/gender assignment at birth. That is to say, I don't believe that changing the system to allow for opting out of gender assignment at birth is going to solve anything.

It's cause there is no solution. Humans are a product of their environment. Every species is a product of it's environment. There is no way we can act as a gender neutral society. The only thing we can do is educate and practice acceptance.

That is much easier than some how trying to eliminate gender from the world.
This is where I believe the really interesting and fruitful discussion is to be found: The elimination of gender is not in any way practical, or likely even possible. However, there are probably things that we can do to adjust our interpretations of gender roles and behaviours in a healthy way that makes confusion about gender identity less traumatic. I agree with Cube Inmate above that we should be "clearly defining 'sex' based on things that are known to be binary." Would it be practical to at birth designate sex based on chromosomes and to go from there?

GGG
05-29-2015, 08:59 AM
Really? You honestly can't wrap your head around it? Have you ever watched any specials or documentaries on it?

It's really easy to wrap your head around, like stupidly easy.

I can emphasize with the pain they feel. I can't wrap my head around.

Can you explain to me what it means to feel male and how that differs from how it feels to be female.

Or the concept of looking in a mirror and your the wrong gender how does a non transgendered person know they are the right gender.

For that matter what is gender without resorting to societal norms like pink and dresses.