Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3 When a team has Datsyuk and Zetterburg, your not going to be in trouble.
Originally Posted by ricardodw Might that not have been said about Ottawa with Heatley, Alfredson and Spezza?
I wouldn't confuse these 2.....
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You might have after the 2006-07 seaon.... just 2 years ago when Spezza, Heatley, and Alfredsen dominated the regular season... compared to Z&D, and went a round further than Z&D in the playoffs.
Just saying having the best 2 or 3 forwards on the ice doesn't mean you are going to win consistently... using Ottawa as the example here.
Really with all the trouble that Ottawa has had over the last little while there was no outcry a couple of years ago when these core guys on Ottawa got their huge contracts...
Heatley 8, Spezza 8 and Alfredsen 9.1 Million for the 2009/2010 season. They were definitely expected to carry the team at least as much as Z&D
Barring some sort of distaster, when you have a defense that consists of Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart.... you're not going to fall that far. Add in their offensive punch in Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler, Holmstrom and so on.. and they'll be fine.
Granted, Chicago is going to be really strong too. The runner-up in the central (one of those two teams) will the 4 seed in the West again this year IMO.
Good points.... based on the Flames Bouwmeester, Phanuef, Regehr and Sarich along with Iginla, Langkow, Jokinen and Bourque... along with Kipper in goal rather than Osgood (or a $500K backup) where do you think the worst the Flames wil finish?
Signing Bouwmeester really pushes the Flames into the Detroit model, except they already had committed to a high priced goalie.
Good points.... based on the Flames Bouwmeester, Phanuef, Regehr and Sarich along with Iginla, Langkow, Jokinen and Bourque... along with Kipper in goal rather than Osgood (or a $500K backup) where do you think the worst the Flames wil finish?
Signing Bouwmeester really pushes the Flames into the Detroit model, except they already had committed to a high priced goalie.
I still think the Wings have more offensive depth than the Flames do right now. Both teams have superb defensive cores and Calgary has a goalie that is capable of being a vezina candidate if things go right. Calgary has more question marks up front IMO... I really like some of the kids coming up in the Wings system (Leino and Helm specifically).
Regardless, these are two very good teams. I think San Jose and Chicago are in the top tier in the West too. Vancouver and Anaheim are strong teams too that could easily become threats depending on a few factors
On paper, I would say the Flames should take the NW. Edmonton, Colorado and Minnesota (based on their current rosters) shouldn't challenge. At this point in time, I think the Canucks are status quo. They'll definitley be a playoff team and the one team that will challenge Calgary for the division IMO.
That all said, that's just on paper. This team has been the best team on paper in the NW the last three years IMO and we've seen what that has accomplished so far. They need to do it on the ice
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Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3 When a team has Datsyuk and Zetterburg, your not going to be in trouble.
Originally Posted by ricardodw Might that not have been said about Ottawa with Heatley, Alfredson and Spezza?
I wouldn't confuse these 2.....
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You might have after the 2006-07 seaon.... just 2 years ago when Spezza, Heatley, and Alfredsen dominated the regular season... compared to Z&D, and went a round further than Z&D in the playoffs.
I understand your point, but I don't think Heatley and Spezza come close to measuring near Datsyuk and Zetterburg. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3 When a team has Datsyuk and Zetterburg, your not going to be in trouble.
Originally Posted by ricardodw Might that not have been said about Ottawa with Heatley, Alfredson and Spezza?
I wouldn't confuse these 2.....
-------------------------------------------------
You might have after the 2006-07 seaon.... just 2 years ago when Spezza, Heatley, and Alfredsen dominated the regular season... compared to Z&D, and went a round further than Z&D in the playoffs.
Just saying having the best 2 or 3 forwards on the ice doesn't mean you are going to win consistently... using Ottawa as the example here.
Really with all the trouble that Ottawa has had over the last little while there was no outcry a couple of years ago when these core guys on Ottawa got their huge contracts... Heatley 8, Spezza 8 and Alfredsen 9.1 Million for the 2009/2010 season. They were definitely expected to carry the team at least as much as Z&D
Who cares what they're being paid by ownership, their cap hits are what matter in terms of getting value out of your players relative to the salary cap, imo.
I have one more point to add that I feel is very important in evaluating Detroit's superior asset management and organizational prowess.
In the past they have had tremendous value contracts. Last year Zetterberg's cap hit was 2.65M.... That had to be in the top 5 value contracts in the league. Now it is just over 6M. A bit of a discount but in the normal range.
They had Draper and Maltby take huge Detroit discounts to finish off their careers un Detroit, Similar to Conroy in Calgary. Now these are no longer value contracts as the wings are committed to the 1.583 hit for Draper and .883 for Maltby. In these last 2 years for Draper, he likely won't be worth the cap hit. Maltby wasn't worth the .833 last year and is dead cap weight this his last year.
Chelios has been a valuable d-man for them up until last year at .750 cap hit.
I also believe that Yzerman was a top 6 forward for them after the strike with a cap hit of around $1M.
Now they don't have any "value" contracts. Most players on the team are getting close to market value.
If Detroit is in the top 5 this year, the Leafs or Rangers should offer Holland/Babcock 5 year $10M per year each contracts. Doesn't count against the cap and I think this year really will show that they are better than everyone else, on a level playing field.
Who cares what they're being paid by ownership, their cap hits are what matter in terms of getting value out of your players relative to the salary cap, imo.
Heatley - 7.5 - Spezza - 7 - Alfredsson - 4.4
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The problem with the front loaded contracts is that Alfredson will still be generating a 4.4 cap hit when he is no longer worth it. He will be playing old timers games as a 38 year old in Sweden in 2012/2013 and still be on Ottawa's cap at 4.4 The GM at the mortaged the future for cap room today. They are really paying him 9.1 M USD to play for them this year.
An example of this was Ottawa trying to dump Heatley before they had to make the $4 M payment. That had no bearing on his cap value but was apparently significant enough for them to make extraordinary efforts to move him to Edmonton.
Now that they paid it they might have to go all Yashin on his but and make him play in Ottawa..... or better yet sit out. The pressure is off them having to dump him.
The Wings have lost Hossa, Sammuelsson and Koepeky. Chelios is retired. Maltby (36), Draper (38) and Holstrom (39) are running on empty.
They have the second best defense top 4 in the west (behind Calgary) and Datsyuk, Zetterburg, Franzen and Cleary (compared to low scoring potential of Iginla, Jokinen, Langkow and Bork) BUT still have Osgood in goal.
They have 5.5 M left in cap space to sign Hudler and 3 close to minimum forwards to fill in 13 forwards; plus a back up goalie. They should be able to get this done but have the same cap difficulty as the Flames when looking to add a top 6 forward to replace Hossa / Cammalleri.
Ottawa quickly went from an elite team to missing the playoffs when they lost Chara as the prize UFA a few years ago. Might losing Hossa have the same impact?
Props on the topic first of all....
I feel that the void Hossa leaves in Detroit will be neglible, as other posters before me have argued. For starters, the Wings won the cup in 2007-2008 without Hossa, and the same core players on their roster.
One player that is due to breakout is Valtteri Filpulla. Selanne once said, and so did Ken Holland, that Filpulla is going to be a very good player in this league someday, and I believe the time is now. He already plays such a good defensive game, and to have him move up into the top 6 players, and contribute as yet another two way guy in the mold of Zetterberg and Datsyuk will be a positive development for Detroit. He had a wonderful playoffs this season, significantly outpacing his regular season scoring pace (given a greater role due to injuries), and he has several NHL seasons under his belt now. Watching him alone, one can unmistakably see the dangles, deceptive passing skills, and untapped offence that he has. I believe he will become pre-eminent for the Red Wings continued success and proven ability to adapt and progress forward from within the organization (Ie. Zetterberg and Datsyuk under the auspices of Yzerman, Hull and company).
Additionally, Zetterberg's regular season totals took quite a dip last year with 3 star forwards in the fold, and he is very capable of rebounding to near 40 goals with increased offensive emphasis, particularly in his prime years.
Datsyuk playing another year like he has the past few seasons, coupled with Helm and Ville Leino admirably taking bottom 6 roles after they have been groomed, and Lidstrom perpetually defying father time for yet another season, I don't think Detroit's time is up just yet. Perhaps in a few seasons when Lidstrom is done, but not yet.
The players you mentioned, particularly, Maltby and Draper have already been relegated to reduced roles since the start of last season. The only concern out of the players you mentioned is Holmstrom, as last season represented quite a drop in level of play, and it is a concern predominantly because he still is expected to have a top 6 role. Incidentally, Holmstrom is 36 not as you mentioned, 39. In the grand scheme of things, their team is not as strong as with Sammuelson and Hossa, but they are definitely not that much worse off for the reasons stated.
Last edited by TangerZ; 07-04-2009 at 08:00 PM.
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They are still the best team in the Western Conference IMO. They lost Hossa, Samuelsson and Kopecky up front but Leino and Abdelkader are good young forwards who will chip in offensively (particularly Leino). Pavel Datsyuk is one of the top forwards in the entire game and Henrik Zetterberg is an amazing player as well. Franzen is clutch and then they have character guys in Cleary, Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom as well as relatively young guys in Filppula, Leino, Abdelkader. With Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson and Lebda, Detroit's defense is still one of the top in the league and the system they play is the best in the league. Osgood always turns it up in the playoffs as well. To top it all off, they have the best coach and GM in the league IMO. I think they are the team to beat in the West next year. Anaheim was a team that I always though could knock them off (almost did last year, but with Pronger gone, that's a huge blow).
Location: I ain't playing nose tackle in a 3-4 defence
Exp:
The other teams might make up a bit of ground on them, but I still think they're going to win the Central and be the top team in the West and no worse than 2nd in the Conference. A few years of long playoff runs might finally catch up to them come playoffs though. But I think they're going to be moving a few younger guys into their lineup this coming year to help them out there too.
__________________ "I don't think it's me personally, I really don't,"
Raiders QB JaMarcus Russell
Props on the topic first of all....
I feel that the void Hossa leaves in Detroit will be neglible, as other posters before me have argued. For starters, the Wings won the cup in 2007-2008 without Hossa, and the same core players on their roster. One player that is due to breakout is Valtteri Filpulla. Selanne once said, and so did Ken Holland, that Filpulla is going to be a very good player in this league someday, and I believe the time is now. He already plays such a good defensive game, and to have him move up into the top 6 players, and contribute as yet another two way guy in the mold of Zetterberg and Datsyuk will be a positive development for Detroit. He had a wonderful playoffs this season, significantly outpacing his regular season scoring pace (given a greater role due to injuries), and he has several NHL seasons under his belt now. Watching him alone, one can unmistakably see the dangles, deceptive passing skills, and untapped offence that he has. I believe he will become pre-eminent for the Red Wings continued success and proven ability to adapt and progress forward from within the organization (Ie. Zetterberg and Datsyuk under the auspices of Yzerman, Hull and company). Additionally, Zetterberg's regular season totals took quite a dip last year with 3 star forwards in the fold, and he is very capable of rebounding to near 40 goals with increased offensive emphasis, particularly in his prime years. Datsyuk playing another year like he has the past few seasons, coupled with Helm and Ville Leino admirably taking bottom 6 roles after they have been groomed, and Lidstrom perpetually defying father time for yet another season, I don't think Detroit's time is up just yet. Perhaps in a few seasons when Lidstrom is done, but not yet. The players you mentioned, particularly, Maltby and Draper have already been relegated to reduced roles since the start of last season. The only concern out of the players you mentioned is Holmstrom, as last season represented quite a drop in level of play, and it is a concern predominantly because he still is expected to have a top 6 role. Incidentally, Holmstrom is 36 not as you mentioned, 39. In the grand scheme of things, their team is not as strong as with Sammuelson and Hossa, but they are definitely not that much worse off for the reasons stated.
Hey man, it looks like you're making some good points and I'd love to read them, but that huge wall of text is pretty daunting. Try adding a few breaks for those of us who aren't completely sober at this stage of the game.
Anyways I see the Wings as a top 5 team, maybe Chicago can challenge for the division but it's unlikely that they win it. Lidstrom, Zetterburg and Datsyuk are just too good at both ends of the ice. And their supporting cast isn't exactly chopped liver.
They'll likely start floating back down to earth based on ages and new contracts, but they aren't out of the NHL elite yet.
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The thing about Filppula is that he has a clearly defined third center role. Wingers may move up and down to an extent, but he'll always be behind Zetterberg and Datsyuk and playing a more defensive role. He's not on Detroit's powerplay but handles the transition from PP to even strength. At least that's my impression. I don't really follow the Red Wings much.
So I don't think you can really expect a big explosion in points unless that basic situation changes, like it did for a few games in the playoffs this year when Datsyuk was hurt. He ended up being 4th in playoff assists, tied with Zetterberg.
A few days ago I read a Babcock comment somewhere that he sees Filppula as more of a second line center, and that he'd like him to develop more confidence in his shooting.
The big moment of transition for Detroit will be when Lidström retires. They have no worries at forward at all.
The problem with the front loaded contracts is that Alfredson will still be generating a 4.4 cap hit when he is no longer worth it. He will be playing old timers games as a 38 year old in Sweden in 2012/2013 and still be on Ottawa's cap at 4.4 The GM at the mortaged the future for cap room today. They are really paying him 9.1 M USD to play for them this year.
An example of this was Ottawa trying to dump Heatley before they had to make the $4 M payment. That had no bearing on his cap value but was apparently significant enough for them to make extraordinary efforts to move him to Edmonton.
Now that they paid it they might have to go all Yashin on his but and make him play in Ottawa..... or better yet sit out. The pressure is off them having to dump him.
But with a cap hit of 4.4 and a Salary of say 2 mil he becomes very valuable to a non-cap max team and should at a minimum get picked up on waivers. Look at the LA Ryan Smith deal.
Front loading is always good for the team. The ottawa deal really isn't about the 4 million but more about egos.
Also now that the 4million has been paid Heatley becomes more valuable to a non-cap max team.
Hossa had 40 goals. Samuelsson had 19. That is 59 goals out of their lineup that Helm and Abdelkader are going to replace?
If the Hawks getting Hossa is the best UFA move, doesn't Detroit losing Hossa become the biggest loss? It is not like they are getting Havlat to fill in.
Where is their depth coming from? Do they have Kane and Toews playing in the minors? If they were so strong organizationally, why did they bring Hossa on board for a year? Would that not have slowed up their internal development?
They have guys playing in the bottom 6 that are ready for top 6 roles.
Those 3 aren't even in the same league, talent wise, as Zetterbeg and
Datsyuk.
I disgaree. Heatley and Spezza are right up there for a top sniper and playmaker respectively in the NHL, talent wise. Howevere, where they lack is defensively when compared to Dats and Zets.
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Those 3 aren't even in the same league, talent wise, as Zetterbeg and
Datsyuk.
I'd say that Spezza and Heatley aren't as good as those 2 because they don't compare defensively but to suggest Alfredsson isn't in the same league talent wise is completely asinine. Since the lockout Alfredsson has produced more offensively then either Zetterberg or Datsyuk.
