Fitness freak?

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thanks, but I never said it will help you gain muscle mass.

I said it provides your muscles with 'energy.'



I don't give a crap what your textbook says about protein. MOST people, through the course of a single day do not get enough protein. Unless they drink 10 cups of 2% milk, eat 4-5 cans of tuna, eat 2 - 18oz steaks...etc, etc. Of course, 10 cups of milk is also taking in more than 1200 calories, not to mention the sugar and fat content which aren't exactly healthy. Protein shakes, 120 calories....30g protein.

And you have absolutely not evidence to prove that they present a health risk.

And YOU have absolutely NO evidence to prove anything you're saying!

You're expecting me to believe you, some random joe blow on the internet, over a freakin' textbook constructed by researchers and professors who have been in the field for years who back their information up with citations?

Frankly I don't give a crap what you put in your body. I was curious as to how creatine could possible help you gain muscle mass, that's why weight lifters take it, right? No? They take it for performance? Why do you care about performance as someone who exercises to be health and fit, not to compete?

I'd love to cite a textbook or something that explains how it's a risk, but if you're too ignorant to, first of all, believe that the average person gets enough protein (experts say this, I'm just reiterating it), and also that you can grab whatever health product is on the market and shove it down your throat assuming there is no risk whatsoever, I doubt at this point any information I refer to will change you.

[Dion]

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

And YOU have absolutely NO evidence to prove anything you're saying!

I don't take Creatine at the moment.

But I do use a protein shake, and the only evidence I have is the fact that I'm making gains. Do you need before and after pictures?

You're expecting me to believe you, some random joe blow on the internet, over a freakin' textbook constructed by researchers and professors who have been in the field for years who back their information up with citations?

Why are you asking? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, most of the people here who are using creatine have said that it helps them. There are NO health risks involved with it(search Google, or all your freakin' textbooks).

Whats the problem? You're the one who automatically calls it crap....talks about how some meathead told them to use it, and turns around and asks questions about it.

Frankly I don't give a crap what you put in your body. I was curious as to how creatine could possible help you gain muscle mass, that's why weight lifters take it, right? No? They take it for performance? Why do you care about performance as someone who exercises to be health and fit, not to compete?

Perhaps you should go read your textbooks, and look at what they tell you about what it takes to gain muscle mass. I'm sure you'll find something about lifting 75-90% of your ability in order to gain muscle mass. Common sense 'should' then tell you that if taking Creatine will allow you to lift at such a rate, you WILL gain muscle mass, providing that your protein intake is consistant enough based on your requirements in order to successfully allow for efficient growth and repair of muscle tissue.

Not to mention the fact that Whey Protein contains high levels of ALL the essential amino acids NOT produced by the body. Plus, foods with low amino acid content, BUT high in protein, are poor equivalents, as the body will remove the amino acids obtained which in turn will convert the protein into fats and carbohydrates, like you said earlier....but you left out the important details. That is why protein shakes are so successful, because they contain the essential balance of amino acids needed for a high degree of net protein utilization.

Not all of us spend 2-1/2 hours in the gym each day....nor do we 'compete' in events. But most of us have high standards, thus the need for supplements such as Creatine.

Most health experts will tell you that each person is different, based on body type, etc, etc. Some of us have experienced with Creatine and found that our body responds better to it. Others, like me have made significant gains without it.

I'd love to cite a textbook or something that explains how it's a risk, but if you're too ignorant to, first of all, believe that the average person gets enough protein (experts say this, I'm just reiterating it), and also that you can grab whatever health product is on the market and shove it down your throat assuming there is no risk whatsoever, I doubt at this point any information I refer to will change you.

I qualify as the average person....and I KNOW that I do not get enough protein WITHOUT the shakes. I'm also trying to cut at the same time, so I have to watch my daily calorie intake. I simply can't eat almonds without question in order to reach my daily protein requirement, well, because almonds are also high in calories.

Perhaps some of the other members who have posted that they use a protein shake can answer as well.

You also assume that I take every single health product out there and 'shove it down my throat.' I don't.

Before I even thought about buying the protein powder, I DID talk to my doctor about it, along with a nutritionist...and both, after looking at my diet along with my workout schedule, recommended the use of protein powder to stimulate my requirements.

That being said, your point of certain people taking every 'new' health product out there and shoving it down their throat is true.

But it doesn't apply here.

[4X4]

My workout regimen: anytime I'm drunk, I end up wrestling with someone. Whenever I'm on the phone, I pace and pace and pace. Whenever I'm at my parents' house, I lift something or move something at their request.
As far as stretching goes, anytime I'm in a store, some little old lady asks me to grab something down from a high shelf. And whenever a beautiful woman walks by, my head does a 180.
So, I pretty much work out all the time. Beat that, meatheads.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by 4X4

My workout regimen: anytime I'm drunk, I end up wrestling with someone. Whenever I'm on the phone, I pace and pace and pace. Whenever I'm at my parents' house, I lift something or move something at their request.
As far as stretching goes, anytime I'm in a store, some little old lady asks me to grab something down from a high shelf. And whenever a beautiful woman walks by, my head does a 180.
So, I pretty much work out all the time. Beat that, meatheads.

I could, but i would probably get banned.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't take Creatine at the moment.

But I do use a protein shake, and the only evidence I have is the fact that I'm making gains. Do you need before and after pictures?

I'm making great gains as well, by working out regularly and eat healthy. Saying this means nothing to anyone else but yourself.

Originally Posted by Azure

Why are you asking? Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, most of the people here who are using creatine have said that it helps them. There are NO health risks involved with it(search Google, or all your freakin' textbooks).

Whats the problem? You're the one who automatically calls it crap....talks about how some meathead told them to use it, and turns around and asks questions about it.

I don't care what some random person says, I'm interested in the facts. I initially came to this thread looking for some facts about Creatine. Since no one provided any information about how it helps gain muscle mass outside of assisting in the Creatine Phosphate energy system, I looked into it further and have come to the conclusion that it does not assist significantly in everyday weightlifter's performance nor will it assist in muscle mass gain.

Originally Posted by Azure

Perhaps you should go read your textbooks, and look at what they tell you about what it takes to gain muscle mass. I'm sure you'll find something about lifting 75-90% of your ability in order to gain muscle mass. Common sense 'should' then tell you that if taking Creatine will allow you to lift at such a rate, you WILL gain muscle mass, providing that your protein intake is consistant enough based on your requirements in order to successfully allow for efficient growth and repair of muscle tissue.

Not to mention the fact that Whey Protein contains high levels of ALL the essential amino acids NOT produced by the body. Plus, foods with low amino acid content, BUT high in protein, are poor equivalents, as the body will remove the amino acids obtained which in turn will convert the protein into fats and carbohydrates, like you said earlier....but you left out the important details. That is why protein shakes are so successful, because they contain the essential balance of amino acids needed for a high degree of net protein utilization.

First of all, don't try and take a jab and "me and my textbooks" simply because I want facts to back up what I'm saying.

You do not need Creatine to lift at 80% of your 1RM. Creatine may possibly increase your 1RM very slightly. This does not affect the compensation curve of the muscle. As long as you apply enough overload, your muscle will tear slightly and overcompensate after a 24-hour period. With or without Creatine.

If, for some reason, you specifically are not getting enough protein in your diet, and have verified this with a nutritionist, why on earth do you take protein shakes? It's an easy way out. Instead of changing your diet to meet calorie/protein requirements, you simply grab some powder crap off the shelf and say "well that's all I need!".

And don't spew this crap about protein shakes being more successful. I'm sure you read that on one of the sites selling protein powder, "finally, the truth about protein powder! (Now buy ours!)". There is no substitute for a healthy diet.

Originally Posted by Azure

Not all of us spend 2-1/2 hours in the gym each day....nor do we 'compete' in events. But most of us have high standards, thus the need for supplements such as Creatine.

Most health experts will tell you that each person is different, based on body type, etc, etc. Some of us have experienced with Creatine and found that our body responds better to it. Others, like me have made significant gains without it.

If you aren't putting in the work needed for gains in muscle mass, then you simply are not going to achieve them. It doesn't matter what kind of pseudo-health products you put in your body.

Like I said, the performance results from Creatine are negligible. It isn't making you stronger or anything, it's just helping your Creatine Phosphate energy system provide evergy in that initial 10 seconds. Why does an average person need this? So they can life 10 extra pounds and show off to everyone else in the gym? That's ridiculous.

[burn_baby_burn]

I'm no scientist. But if you can lift 10 extra pounds. Won't that make you bigger and stronger?

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I'm no scientist. But if you can lift 10 extra pounds. Won't that make you bigger and stronger?

I'm fairly certain I already went over this, but here it is again...

Creatine, generally, has negligible effects on the everyday weight lifter. If there was some anomally where one person took it and could lift 10 more pounds on the bench press and do the same amount of reps as before taking it, it would not help them gain muscle mass. It's simply helping the Creatine Phosphate energy system.

Look at it this way: you and your friend go to the gym. You got ~3 hours of sleep the night previous and had played hockey and exercised the day before, whereas your friend got a full nights sleep and did very little the previous day. He obviously has more energy, since you have used much of your glucose storage. If both of you usually bench press 130 pounds, 8 reps, 3 sets, chances are that day your performance will be lower, since you have less energy. Maybe you do 130 pounds 6 reps 3 sets where he does 130 pounds 8 reps 3 sets.

This is obviously an extreme case, and even so, you having decreased energy and consequently decreased performance will still have negligible effect on your muscle compensation curve, because you still applied the overload principle; you did as many reps as you possibly could.

Edit: If creatine has any affect on you whatsoever, that affect is simply squeezing a little bit more performance out of you, not changing your capabilities.

[Muta]

I used creatine, and while I didn't work hard enough in the gym to see any tangible difference , all my trainers that I've beed associated with over the years said that creatine can help give that extra energy to 'push' you during workouts, and the only downside to taking it is the inconvenience of buying it. You take it in moderation, and it's fine. The only main downside of creatine is that one you're off it, you lose that extra 'push' you had, and you slow down. That's why if you're going to take it, take it consistently.

As Azure said, it's not for everybody; it just depends on how your own body reacts. You can take it, or you don't have to.

If anything, calling creatine 'crap' is ignorant. Using it and seeing results depends on the person physically and motivational-wise.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Muta

I used creatine, and while I didn't work hard enough in the gym to see any tangible difference , all my trainers that I've beed associated with over the years said that creatine can help give that extra energy to 'push' you during workouts, and the only downside to taking it is the inconvenience of buying it. You take it in moderation, and it's fine. The only main downside of creatine is that one you're off it, you lose that extra 'push' you had, and you slow down. That's why if you're going to take it, take it consistently.

As Azure said, it's not for everybody; it just depends on how your own body reacts. You can take it, or you don't have to.

If anything, calling creatine 'crap' is ignorant. Using it and seeing results depends on the person physically and motivational-wise.

I'm fine with that description.

The only reason I call it crap is because people take pseudo-health products like it just because one of the weight jockeys at their gym does. They dive in, without knowing the facts about it. Then they come to me (ie, friends or people at them gym do) and praise the product, saying I must take it, it helps so much, and when I ask them how it works or what's in it they shrug and say "who cares". That's what I have a problem with.

If you're ok with spending the money on sugar pills because they help your performance, then by all means... go ahead.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

Edit: If creatine has any affect on you whatsoever, that affect is simply squeezing a little bit more performance out of you, not changing your capabilities.

Thats where I see it. When I can squeeze that extra rep out in my second set. Which means I can add slightly more weight. Adding more weight should increase my strength and ultimately my size.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Thats where I see it. When I can squeeze that extra rep out in my second set. Which means I can add slightly more weight. Adding more weight should increase my strength and ultimately my size.

You know most people could squeeze out a few extra reps if they ate healthy, slept with more regularity, avoided crap like McDonalds, and drank enough water, among other things.

But God forbid people change their lifestyle for the better. They need the easy way out. They need their supplements.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

You know most people could squeeze out a few extra reps if they ate healthy, slept with more regularity, avoided crap like McDonalds, and drank enough water, among other things.

But God forbid people change their lifestyle for the better. They need the easy way out. They need their supplements.

Who said I wasn't doing all those things. Maybe I could use more sleep, I go to the gym at 5:30am, but my wife and kids won't allow it.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

You know most people could squeeze out a few extra reps if they ate healthy, slept with more regularity, avoided crap like McDonalds, and drank enough water, among other things.

But God forbid people change their lifestyle for the better. They need the easy way out. They need their supplements.

Easier said than done. I'd love to eat healthy ALL the time, sleep with more regularity and drink enough water on a consistent basis.

But because I can't do this all the time, that's where creatine steps in and assists. I try to live as healthy as I can (well, not true, I smoke occasionally lolol) but creatine is a safe and easy assist.

What's easier on the wallet... buying a bottle of creatine, or fundamentally changing your diet and lifestyle just to accomodate an extra push for some reps?

I'm not saying DON'T do as much of a healthy lifestyle as you possible can - you SHOULD. But creatine isn't the evil you're making it out to be. It's just not for YOU, that's all.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Who said I wasn't doing all those things. Maybe I could use more sleep, I go to the gym at 5:30am, but my wife and kids won't allow it.

1) I wasn't specifically talking about you.

2) One can never do enough for their body. There's always more you can do. You can always eat healthier, always be in better shape, always stretch more. Etc, etc.

Off-topic, random spewing of information: Strength is affected not only by the cross-sectional area of a muscle, but also inter and intra muscular coordination. How often do you see weight jockeys work on their coordination/agility, etc? Also, most of the regular weight lifters I know hardly stretch at all. Flexibility increases the potential for contraction of a muscle, which, you guessed it, means more strength.

Like I said, there are a million things you can do for yourself to get that extra boost in the gym. If you're so committed to your workout you need to take Creatine, why the hell aren't you doing all of these other things as well? (Again, I'm speaking generally).

Edit for Muta's comments:

Originally Posted by Muta

I try to live as healthy as I can (well, not true, I smoke occasionally lolol) but creatine is a safe and easy assist.

Not smoking is also a safe and easy assist.

Originally Posted by Muta

What's easier on the wallet... buying a bottle of creatine, or fundamentally changing your diet and lifestyle just to accomodate an extra push for some reps?

If anything, changing your diet is less expensive. Fast food is expensive. "Health" products are expensive.

I know what you're saying Muta, and I'm not trying to make it my mission to get everyone to stop using Creatine. Use it if you like. To me, people who use potentially dangerous products without knowing anything about them are ignorant. People who act like powders, etc, are their saviours in the gym annoy me, especially when they try and get me to use them. If they're doing all that work to get huge, and spend all that money and "muscle milk" and Creatine and all these other products... why don't you do simple things that will show even greater gains and are not potentially harmful?

[Kybosh]

I'm on the fence about creatine. I don't take it or any other supplements and just try my best to eat as well as I can. Store bought creatine is chemically the same as that which is produced in the body. I'm not sure if orally ingested creatine metabolizes in the same way though. One of my concerns with all these nitrogenous supplements is the extra stress that might be placed on the liver and kidneys over time. Another thing is that these supplements are not subject to the same scrutiny that pharmaceuticals are. Just because it is naturally produced in the body doesn't mean it is ok for you to ingest.

[Got Miikka?]

nm

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

I'm making great gains as well, by working out regularly and eat healthy. Saying this means nothing to anyone else but yourself.

I do all of the above as well.

I try to eat healthy...sometimes I have no choice but to get eat fast food. If Subway counts as fast food.

You seem to think that because YOU are making great gains, WITHOUT the use of supplements, everyone else should be able to do the same thing. As I'm sure you know, each person is different, each lifestyle is different, and for people associated with office work where it is VERY difficult to find healthy food, HIGH in protein....the shake CAN help.

Of course I would never advocate it as a meal replacement, and it does pain me when people talk about using the shake to 'loose' weight. Loosing weight is about eating healthy, like you said.

A certified trainer I talked to a few months ago said that supplements should ONLY be used once your diet was in order.

You do not need Creatine to lift at 80% of your 1RM. Creatine may possibly increase your 1RM very slightly. This does not affect the compensation curve of the muscle. As long as you apply enough overload, your muscle will tear slightly and overcompensate after a 24-hour period. With or without Creatine.

No, of course not. I lift at above 80% 'without' Creatine. Some people lift above 80% 'with' Creatine.

If you don't use it, good for you.

If, for some reason, you specifically are not getting enough protein in your diet, and have verified this with a nutritionist, why on earth do you take protein shakes? It's an easy way out. Instead of changing your diet to meet calorie/protein requirements, you simply grab some powder crap off the shelf and say "well that's all I need!".

Again, there you go with the 'crap powder' opinion again...which like Muta said, is ignorant, in itself.

I eat healthy, I 'try' to get enough protein from food sources....but over 50% of the time that is impossible to achieve.

Therefore I use the protein shake to fulfill my requirement.

It works for me. I am making gains 'while' using it, when previously I had a hard time setting any goals and accomplishing them. Is that good enough for you?

And don't spew this crap about protein shakes being more successful. I'm sure you read that on one of the sites selling protein powder, "finally, the truth about protein powder! (Now buy ours!)". There is no substitute for a healthy diet.

Nice to see you avoid my entire post. I never said anything about substituting for a healthy diet. I merely pointed out how a protein shake CAN help.

Perhaps you should address the contents of my post. But then again, you can't....because that would be over-stepping your limit and admitting that protein shakes can work.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

I'm fine with that description.

I thought it was crap?

The only reason I call it crap is

Oh.

I guess it still is.

because people take pseudo-health products like it just because one of the weight jockeys at their gym does. They dive in, without knowing the facts about it. Then they come to me (ie, friends or people at them gym do) and praise the product, saying I must take it, it helps so much, and when I ask them how it works or what's in it they shrug and say "who cares". That's what I have a problem with.

There goes the 'I know better than you' attitude once again.

Has anyone here said that they started using supplements because some weight jockey at their gym told them about it? No. So why don't you quit stereotyping and shut the hell up about what kind of 'crap' product people are putting into their body?

Seriously, I realize what you mean. I had friends who starting using steroids in high-school because some internet website told them about the 'significant gains' you can make by taking their product. Your point DOES stand; people DO take MANY health products without knowing what it 'actually' is.

But Creatine has been around a long time. I've talked to 'many' certified fitness trainers who advocate its use. It is a 100% natural supplement, something our 'own' body produces. So quit generalizing.

Also, can you cite your sources that tell you that Creatine does not increase energy levels, strength, endurance and recovery rates?

If you're ok with spending the money on sugar pills because they help your performance, then by all means... go ahead.

Who said anything about a sugar pill?

What the hell does it have to do with this thread?

[Azure]

Just some simple research...

Creatine alone can increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and potentially athletic performance. The inclusion of carbs and protein with your creatine however might even lead to greater benefit. In addition, the use of liquid creatine may allow for lower effective doses of creatine and a much more pleasant intenstinal experience. - Dr Berardi

Dr. Berardi has earned a doctoral degree from the University of Western Ontario (2005) with a specialization in the area of exercise biology and nutrient biochemistry. Prior to his doctoral studies, Dr. Berardi studied Exercise Science at Eastern Michigan University (Masters program; 1999) as well as Health Science, Psychology, and Philosophy at Lock Haven University (Undergraduate program; 1997).

Throughout, Dr. Berardi’s research has focused on the interaction between nutrition, sports supplementation, and exercise performance. This research has led to the publication of 8 scientific abstracts, 12 scientific papers and textbook chapters, and over a dozen presentations at scientific meetings. Further, Dr. Berardi has taught college courses in Strength Training, Exercise Science, Laboratory Techniques in Exercise Science, Nutrient Metabolism, Fitness and Wellness, and Exercise Nutrition.

__________________________________________

By Daniel Gastelu, M.S., MFS, Director of Nutritional Sciences of the
International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA), author, trainer of
fitness trainers, and sports nutrition and dietary supplement
industry expert.

One of the best kept secrets in the sports nutrition industry is
research grade creatine; the highest quality of creatine used in
research studies. The results of the most recent research studies
continue to substantiate that research grade creatine works to help
increase strength and muscle size at a faster rate.

To underscore this point about the proven effectiveness of creatine,
recently a team of independent scientists, headed by Ira Wolinsky,
Ph.D., of the University of Houston, and Judy Driskell, Ph.D., R.D.,
of the University of Nebraska, put creatine on the top of their
“What Works for Strength and Muscle Mass” sports supplement list
(creatine has been on the top of my list for 2 decades). Creatine
made Class A, along with some of the other bodybuilding essentials
I will be reviewing with you in subsequent articles. This
distinguished group of scientists who conducted the massive
research review on creatine included R ichard B. Kreider, Ph.D.,
who is a leading creatine researcher and supporter of using
creatine as an ergogenic aid for sports performance and muscle
building. These and other top sports scientists reviewed creatine
and concluded the following about the effectiveness of creatine:
- Promotes greater gains in increasing FFM (Fat Free Mass, which
includes muscle mass).
- Increases muscle fiber size; hypertrophy.
- Increases muscle mass.
- Increases myosin.
- Improves maximal strength.
- Improves maximal power.
- Improves single-effort sprint performance.
- Improves worked performed during repetitive sprint performance.
- Improving performance during exercise of high to maximal
intensity.