As I'm sure everyone round these parts has been, Ive been thinking as to what is the cause of this "lazy" attitude that seems to have taken over the flames over the last season and a bit. How does a team go from the undisputed kings of working hard and pissing people off to where we are now? Why did it happen? And what can be done to fix it? Does it even need to be "fixed"?
So all this being my opinion, feel free to dissect it as much as you want and pick it apart to your hearts extent.
My take on this whole situation is we have too many skilled players who don't have nearly the same work ethic because of their skill sets. This isnt a knock on them, they don't need to work as hard to be effective at what they do(thinking Huselius and Tangauy here mainly). Instead of seeing a guy like Donovan working his butt off every shift to keep a job in the league, they see Huselius working his magic. Thought processes goes from "i better work as hard as Donovan or im not gonna play" to "i better work harder than Huselius if i want to play".
Another thing to consider is our top 6 used to have 4 grinders, Conroy and Iggy. Any grinder worth anything in this league normally can skate fairly well, fore check like a madman, and work harder than everyone else. All traits we no longer have with our dynamic group of skilled forwards. Of our top 6 now, we still have Iggy and Conroy, but the closest thing to a Grinder to bring the work ethic is Nolan. As much as he is trying, he doesn't have the wheels to fill that role on his own and realistically, he is the 5th or 6th guy in that group. Not really the guy who everyone compares their game too, and if it is, he only has 2 or 3 points, making it pretty easy to outdo him and feel good about your game.
On Defense, we had a group that had a hell of a lot of chemistry and would head butt their way through a brick wall for each other. Leopold added alot to that group, he could skate, get the puck out and he work better than anyone else with Regehr to this point. Losing him was a blow, but a move I ultimately support. Sarich seems like a guy who fits that mold of guy, but only time will tell if he gels the same way. At this point, It seems like the Defense still doesn't know each other, and with the turnover of defense men we have seen in the last few years, its a little bit expected. With time, i can see them gelling as a group, but they will never be as cohesive as the 04 group was. Very few D cores are.
So with all that being where i think the problems we see today developed from, how can they be fixed?(If you think there is a better way, by all means toss out an idea or two) This is more or less one way i think could solve a few of the problems.
Something in the top 6 has too change. The offense looks flat out lazy and indifferent way too often. This is where the rest of the team looks to for its comparitives. The third and fourth lines arnt the ones who should be working their butts off to inspire the top 2 lines, it should be the other way around. The bottom lines feed off the big lines. So when we have Those guys playing a lazy game, it infects the whole team.
Iggy and Tangauy both have no trade clauses so moving them isnt going to happen.(I know Tangauy could waive his but meh) Personally, as much as i love watching him, and as much as i love the element he brings to the team, I think Huselius is the guy to move. If we can get a cheaper and/or younger player for him that could play on the top two lines as a center or left winger that is more of a power forward and/or disruptive player it wold be ideal. Someone sort of in the Scott Hartnell mold or even along the lines of an Avery. Someone who is going to work hard every shift, hit some people and bring the overall work ethic in the top two lines up closer to where it was a few years ago.
All in all, this team has too much talent and plays very similar to the Canucks of a few years ago, expecting to win without having to work for it. This attitude needs to go if we are going to be successful and go to that next level, personally i think this is one way to get there. If the work ethic goes up, the support that has been lacking defensively will come back a bit more, making both the D and Kipper look better.
What this whole post is getting at is, Do we have too much skill? And will trading one of our skilled guys in the top six(Huselius or Tanguay or even Langkow) fix any of the problems we are having? your Thoughts................
In short, no, we do not have too much skill. Being skilled does not automatically equate to being lazy (see Sakic, Crosby, Iginla).
Vancouver has three "skilled" forwards - the Sedins and Naslund - and a bunch of "grinders" and "pluggers". How are they doing?
You're right though, this team lacks determination and consistent efforts, but trading away talent for prototypical energy guys with loads of enthusiasm but not much skill won't fix things.
The Flames let many of their "hard working" guys go.
Chris Clark
Andrew Ference
Shean Donovan
Dean MccAmmond
Toni Lydman
Jordan Leopold
Chuck Kobasew
Mike Commodore
Steve Montador
Only guy not fast is Commodore but that isn't his game.
Yes, I believe we have upgraded many of these guys with more skilled players but the guys who came in are slower and don't give 110% when compared to their previous guys.
I don't think its a problem of "too much" anything.
I think its a problem of not enough.... namely not enough youth, speed, tenacity, persistence and determination. With the defense in particular, not enough of above and not nearly enough puckmoving skill.
in response to Rico, Speed and Energy are definitely needed, and a guy like huselius on Tangauy don't bring both. Both are quick, but neither bring energy. Typically, a player who is more of a grinder brings more energy to a team. Im not saying we should go trade Huselius for Bates Battaglia, but more of some one who brings a blend of offensive ability and that grinder identity. Along the lines of Avery, Hartnell, Morrow, or Malone(not sure how physical he is though)
Quote:
In short, no, we do not have too much skill. Being skilled does not automatically equate to being lazy (see Sakic, Crosby, Iginla)
Your right, it does not. But with this group of forwards that we have right now, I'm leaning towards that being part of the problem.
Quote:
Vancouver has three "skilled" forwards - the Sedins and Naslund - and a bunch of "grinders" and "pluggers". How are they doing?
Keep in mind that Vancouver also had Isbister on the top line. Not exactly who i would be looking for to put into Huselius' spot. As a Whole even without huselius, we would still be a very talented team. more so than Vancouver. Keep in mind they did win the division last year with a very similar team.
Quote:
You're right though, this team lacks determination and consistent efforts, but trading away talent for prototypical energy guys with loads of enthusiasm but not much skill won't fix things.
By trading away talent, we will get more than a prototypical guy in return. Especially if it is a 1 for 1 deal with us giving up Huselius. Clearly im expecting a guy who is a grinder but has the talent to be a second line player(50 point guy or so)
I don't think its a problem of "too much" anything.
I think its a problem of not enough.... namely not enough youth, speed, tenacity, persistence and determination. With the defense in particular, not enough of above and not nearly enough puckmoving skill.
If we don't have enough of any of that, what exactly do we have? We have to have too much of something to have that many areas of deficiency.
If we don't have enough of any of that, what exactly do we have? We have to have too much of something to have that many areas of deficiency.
Too many passengers... again. Too many players hoping to ride shotgun with Iggy and Kipper for a Stanley cup swansong and guys brought in that may have more experience than young guys, but lack the same inspiration and tenacity.
Too many passengers... again. Too many players hoping to ride shotgun with Iggy and Kipper for a Stanley cup swansong and guys brought in that may have more experience than young guys, but lack the same inspiration and tenacity.
My problem with that line of thinking is all of these guys have been effective players on successful teams before, but right now they aren't playing the way they can and should. How do we fix this? You say they lack inspiration, so how can some be added to this team and where and for what?
IMO we can never hope to keep up with the fast moving, run and gun style of other more successful teams with players like Conroy and Nolan as key players on the top 2 lines.
Also, in watching teams like Detroit, every player seems to know exactly where his team mate is at all times, whereas, we seem to play more as individuals or in pairs, etc. It appears to me that we don't seem to be playing as a team, with a well defined system, that works consistantly.
Also, strong physical play seems to be very inconsistant - perhaps due to fear of getting penalties.
Last edited by flamesfever; 11-08-2007 at 12:17 PM.
My problem with that line of thinking is all of these guys have been effective players on successful teams before, but right now they aren't playing the way they can and should. How do we fix this? You say they lack inspiration, so how can some be added to this team and where and for what?
Thats Unpossible
I look at it this way... the downside with veterans is that many think they have already earned their stripes.
Take preseason for instance. Eriksson, Aucoin and even Regehr can play like garbage cause they know full well it doesn't matter and they are totally safe from the likes of Giordano, Pardy and Ramholt taking their spots. I don't think that mentality ends at preseason either.
Now, look at it this way... the Flames post-lockout are considered a Stanley Cup contender. Lots of guys want to hoist Lord Stanley before they retire, so they book passage onto the good ship Flames. These aren't the same players that were awesome in their day anymore (Amonte, Friesen, Nolan)... but they now feel entitled to be on a contender due to their past resume. What made the Flames contenders in the first place is being stripped away to make room for passengers. What made them great was tenacious players, young or in their prime, desperate to win and did not accept anything less. Fast, hard-hitting, and still more skilled than many think.
The end result, the Battleship Calgary Flames of 03-04 has become the Luxury Liner Calgary Flames for declining stars. Sutter has unwillingly become Captain Stubbing.
The solution? Shipping out these decliners for desperate younger players for one. Maybe a core shakeup. (I'd say the only untouchables are Iggy, Kipper and Phaneuf... anyone else could and should be fair game).
Last edited by Thunderball; 11-08-2007 at 12:20 PM.
So considering that Nolan was signed in the offseason and i s wearing an A, we can consider him untradable for diplomatic reasons. It really leaves Conroy, Langkow, or Huselius asthe guy to get moved in the shake up. Trade Conroy and Iggy will be pissed, bad idea in my world. Lankow is not a problem in my mind, he seems to be one of the harder workers and most dependable in the top 6, just not a mover or shaker kind of guy. That leaves us with Huselius as the guy to move. Who would we want in return if we were to move him to start getting rid of this mentality? Would a guy like Eric Cole fit in? Would Carolina make a deal like that?
You can't say they let go all there hard workers, that isn't fair. The players on this team wouldn't be in the nhl if they couldn't work there tails off. We've seen it at times, that is whats so maddening about the flames. If they would even play with half the determination we know they are capable of they would be an elite team. But it doesn't look like thats going to happen and i'm not going to sit and think any game now they will turn it on. It didn't happen all last season when i thought the same thing. As fans i think we have to accept that until something drastic happens (injury or trade) I don't see much of a change effort wise in the team.
Personally... I would make my move from defense and move one of Regehr or Aucoin. Sarich seems to be doing Regehr's job for 400k a year less. Aucoin is a salary albatross plain and simple. Defense needs the shake-up more, and if someone like Regehr was to go for a Leopold-type speedy two-way defender... I think the rest would swiftly fall in line.
So considering that Nolan was signed in the offseason and i s wearing an A, we can consider him untradable for diplomatic reasons. It really leaves Conroy, Langkow, or Huselius asthe guy to get moved in the shake up. Trade Conroy and Iggy will be pissed, bad idea in my world. Lankow is not a problem in my mind, he seems to be one of the harder workers and most dependable in the top 6, just not a mover or shaker kind of guy. That leaves us with Huselius as the guy to move. Who would we want in return if we were to move him to start getting rid of this mentality? Would a guy like Eric Cole fit in? Would Carolina make a deal like that?
huselius for cole? no, they wouldnt do that.
__________________
________Because, you never know what tomorrow will bring.
This might belong more on the Keenan discussion, but the following, I think, summarizes the problem perfectly...
Quote:
Even though the Flames are largely a veteran group, Keenan thinks the problem might be between the ears.
"It takes persistence and dedication and commitment and leadership to continue to get better," he said. "The idea, for this franchise, is yes, they were a playoff team, but they had a first-round exit. Yes, they were a playoff team the previous year, but they had a first-round exit. Prior to that, they went to the finals, but that was a one-time run.
"This group," he concluded, with a ringing clarity that summed up his thoughts nicely, "has a lot to learn about winning."
It tells me that leadership in the room is thinking - let's make the playoffs and maybe we will "catch lightning in a bottle (again)" and that's not what Keenan/Sutter are thinking...
Do we need "new" leaders in the room? Or can the thinking in the room be changed enough to go forward with this group?
Personally... I would make my move from defense and move one of Regehr or Aucoin. Sarich seems to be doing Regehr's job for 400k a year less. Aucoin is a salary albatross plain and simple. Defense needs the shake-up more, and if someone like Regehr was to go for a Leopold-type speedy two-way defender... I think the rest would swiftly fall in line.
Interesting, but is Regehr really tradable right now? The no trade doesn't kick in until next year right? Just randomly thinking of guys who might be available......maybe Kaberle from Toronto, he is really the only guy on that blue line they could trade and Regehr would help them a lot, I cant really think of anyone else who would be available and in the same skill range.
Too Much Skill?
