Last of Us - Game discussion with spoilers

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I think that's what makes this story so good, is that there isn't really a right answer or right interpretation.

Good in a sense of narrative and storytelling but not good in the sense of let's play a game where the protagonist I played and sympathized with as father figure throughout the entire first game gets his brain smashed by a golf club and then a pregnant side character and unborn child is murdered by the consequences of my actions.

What I really wanted them to deliver was something with more gravitas and intellect and positive impact on the world that they built - maybe more about different factions and systems working on dealing with the infected and fungal calamity as the enemy - not two young-adult women leaving a bloody trail of death and destruction with you at the controls. All the world building of the super-interesting premise just became a non-descript background to the story of interpersonal vengeance.

I think Druckmann's ego was boosted to ridiculous heights from the positive reception to the moral dilemma ending of Joel & the doctors. He then completely forgot that the main positive thing about the first game was the proper adventure with world-building and the feel-good father/daughter relationship of the main characters.

His ego took the moral dilemma from the first game and built an entire second game out of squeezing even more agony and depressing drivel out of moral dilemmas and completely forgot adventure and feel-good.



Hats off to gamers who got something valuable out of the second game but being at the controls of people committing horrible acts only brings me a need for drinking and therapy.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Good in a sense of narrative and storytelling but not good in the sense of let's play a game where the character I play gets his brain smashed by a golf club and then a pregnant side character and unborn child is murdered by the consequences of my actions.

What I really wanted them to deliver was something with more gravitas and intellect and positive impact on the world that they built - maybe more about different factions and systems working on dealing with the infected and fungal calamity as the enemy - not two young-adult women leaving a bloody trail of death and destruction with you at the controls.

All the world building of the super-interesting premise just became a non-descript background to the story of interpersonal vengeance. I think Druckmann's ego was boosted to ridiculous heights from the positive reception to the moral dilemma ending of Joel & the doctors. He then completely forgot that the main positive thing about the first game was the proper adventure with world-building and the feel-good father/daughter relationship of the main characters.

His ego took the moral dilemma from the first game and built an entire second game out of squeezing even more agony and depressing drivel out of moral dilemmas and completely forgot adventure and feel-good.

The Drukmann hate campaign honestly makes me really uncomfortable, as the main driver of that charge is an incel group that had very clear anti-semitism message it's core. I'm not saying that as an attack to you, but in general when Neil gets brought up in this sort of context it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. So I think just, maybe be more mindful of that in the larger context of the discourse around the game. There were a lot of people who worked on this game, including Halley Gross who co-created the story.

People can be upset that it wasn't the story they want, and I think that's really fair. I don't have any criticism on that, as that's personal taste. But I think it's really difficult to deny that what we got was very well done.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cole436

The Drukmann hate campaign honestly makes me really uncomfortable, as the main driver of that charge is an incel group that had very clear anti-semitism message it's core. I'm not saying that as an attack to you, but in general when Neil gets brought up in this sort of content it makes the hair on my back stand up. So I think just, maybe be more mindful of that in the larger context of the discourse around the game. There were a lot of people who worked on this game, including Halley Gross who co-created the story.

People can be upset that it wasn't the story they want, and I think that's really fair. I don't have any criticism on that, as that's personal taste. But I think it's really difficult to deny that it was very well done.

The orientation of the characters has nothing to do with my argument. As the main producer of the series, if he didn't instigate this type of plot, he has full responsibility for it. If you can't make argument because it is somehow off limits since others are leveraging it for discrimination and bigotry then that is an even bigger travesty. There are plenty of people who dislike the game who have no hateful inclinations whatsoever to specific groups of people. Only to Druckmann as a storyteller. I honestly think he saw the great reaction to the twist of Joel killing the doctors and decided to make a whole game made of moments like Joel killing the doctors.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The orientation of the characters has nothing to do with my argument. As the main producer of the series, if he didn't instigate this type of plot, he has full responsibility for it. If you can't make argument because it is somehow off limits since others are leveraging it for discrimination and bigotry then that is an even bigger travesty. I honestly think he saw the great reaction to the twist of Joel killing the doctors and decided to make a whole game made of moments like Joel killing the doctors.

I'm being very clear, I'm not accusing you of being anti-semetic. I'm saying that a sizable number of people who criticize Neil directly and bring his face to the forefront when discussing flaws of TLOU2 do it with an agenda of anti-semitism underneath. So I would just advise you to be mindful of that when presenting your arguments in that manner.

I also didn't bring up any characters orientation in my post...

Again, I think it's super fair not to have liked the story of TLOU2. But I do think it would be hard to say that it was not well done. I personally thought it was the correct story to tell, but I respect others who don't.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I'm being very clear, I'm not accusing you of being anti-semetic. I'm saying that a sizable number of people who criticize Neil directly and bring his face to the forefront when discussing flaws of TLOU2 do it with an agenda of anti-semitism underneath. So I would just advice you to be mindful of that when presenting your arguments in that manner.

I also didn't bring up any characters orientation in my post...

Again, I think it's super fair not to have liked the story of TLOU2. But I do think it would be hard to say that it was not well done. I personally thought it was the correct story to tell, but I respect others who don't.

I understand your reaction. I was hanging out with a bunch of people the other day and half of them were saying how much they hated the game and the other half were like "but it was so interesting how they put you into the situation of playing as cold blooded killers and asking yourself if you would do it in their shoes" or "it only takes missing a few meals to turn us into monsters and cannibals" and I could only look at them like they were crazy people and how I wouldn't want to be around them in an apocalyptic situation

It's well done I'll give you that.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I understand your reaction. I was hanging out with a bunch of people the other day and half of them were saying how much they hated the game and the other half were like "but it was so interesting how they put you into the situation of playing as cold blooded killers and asking yourself if you would do it in their shoes" or "it only takes missing a few meals to turn us into monsters and cannibals" and I could only look at them like they were crazy people and how I wouldn't want to be around them in an apocalyptic situation

It's well done I'll give you that.

hahaha I do seriously worry how many people would turn into David.

[Hack&Lube]

I actually tried to wipe this game out of my memory after playing it but this discussion is bringing back all these uncomfortable feelings. I now distinctly remember the moment where as a guitar player myself, I saw Ellie come out of this cycle of hate with only two fingers and barely being able to strum. That was last depressing straw for me.

If some games are "The Best of Us", the 2nd of of the series should be titled "The Worst of Us".

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I actually tried to wipe this game out of my memory after playing it but this discussion is bringing back all these uncomfortable feelings. I now distinctly remember the moment where as a guitar player myself, I saw Ellie come out of this cycle of hate with only two fingers and barely being able to strum. That was last depressing straw for me.

If some games are "The Best of Us", the 2nd of of the series should be titled "The Worst of Us".

I wasn't sure how I felt about it when I first played it, but if you're up for it I would honestly recommend giving it another playthrough. As someone who was on the fence about it at first, I really, really enjoyed the story the second time.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I'm being very clear, I'm not accusing you of being anti-semetic. I'm saying that a sizable number of people who criticize Neil directly and bring his face to the forefront when discussing flaws of TLOU2 do it with an agenda of anti-semitism underneath. So I would just advise you to be mindful of that when presenting your arguments in that manner.

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but I really think you need to either get over or separate the motivations of some random group of critics of either Druckmann or TLOU2 from comments people are making on CalgaryPuck which, from my experience, have overwhelmingly been completely devoid of anything to do with anti-semitism, incels, homophobia, etc.

I get it, it was hurtful specifically to read reviews elsewhere that were clearly coming from a place of homophobic and anti-trans bigotry, but you have to know what you’re doing every time you bring those people up in response to someone making a completely valid, honest, and hate-free criticism of the game or the producer. You can’t tell a poster to be mindful while not being mindful yourself. It’s like someone telling you they love adidas sneakers and you saying, “You should be more mindful about expressing your love for adidas because the Nazi’s also loved adidas.”

Sorry, again I mean zero disrespect by it and don’t mean for it to be a big distraction, I just noticed it in the other thread and noticed it again here and I think it’s kind of a ####ty thing to do when it’s completely unearned.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but I really think you need to either get over or separate the motivations of some random group of critics of either Druckmann or TLOU2 from comments people are making on CalgaryPuck which, from my experience, have overwhelmingly been completely devoid of anything to do with anti-semitism, incels, homophobia, etc.

I get it, it was hurtful specifically to read reviews elsewhere that were clearly coming from a place of homophobic and anti-trans bigotry, but you have to know what you’re doing every time you bring those people up in response to someone making a completely valid, honest, and hate-free criticism of the game or the producer. You can’t tell a poster to be mindful while not being mindful yourself. It’s like someone telling you they love adidas sneakers and you saying, “You should be more mindful about expressing your love for adidas because the Nazi’s also loved adidas.”

Sorry, again I mean zero disrespect by it and don’t mean for it to be a big distraction, I just noticed it in the other thread and noticed it again here and I think it’s kind of a ####ty thing to do when it’s completely unearned.

I hear what you’re saying. I want to be very clear that I am not saying that criticism of the game has anything to with being transphobic, bigoted, or anti-Semitic. I am specifically referring to how people talk about Neil Drukmann.

The reason most people even know who he is, has to do with a coordinated and systematic harassment campaign by a group that have anti-Semitic undertones. His face was plastered all over Reddit and then every alt-right site for months, and he became a lightning rod for criticism and abuse.

I think it’s important to acknowledge that the majority of the negative comments around Neil and “his ego” stems from harassment fuelled by bigots. When people here post similar content (while having no intentions of being anti-Semitic), they are unintentionally posting in the same flavour as the gamergate community, which they should be aware of.

Calgarypuck isn’t in a vacuum, and while I believe these posters are not intending their content to be bigoted, unfortunately the subtext of this specific topic has significantly been impacted by hate groups.

I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with stating we should be aware and mindful of the way we post and talk about people, especially in situations that are loaded with a significant amount of harmful subtext.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I hear what you’re saying. I want to be very clear that I am not saying that criticism of the game has anything to with being transphobic, bigoted, or anti-Semitic.

OK, but you kind of are. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Cole436

These people are likely the reason most gamers even know his name.

…

I think it’s important to acknowledge that so much of the negative discourse around Neil stems from these groups, and that people posting in a similar manner (while having no intentions of being anti-Semitic) are unintentionally posting in the same flavour of those groups.

First, you’re suggesting people only know Druckmann because of incel anti-semites, which is just… blatantly not true? It’s not even likely. Especially now, where he’s hosted a podcast/after show for the HBO series. It no longer makes any sense to suggest that group is the likely root of awareness of Druckmann.

Second, you’re literally saying that because so much criticism came from anti-semites, that people posting similar criticisms devoid of anti-semitism still have “the flavour” of anti-semitism (unintentionally). That effectively disables making any criticism without it being suggested that you’ve said something similar to someone ####ty.

I’ll use the adidas example again. Plenty of people wear adidas. Does that mean their fashion choice has “the flavour” of nazism?

If a homophobe says my jacket looks bad, does that mean everyone who says my jacket looks bad is bringing “the flavour” of homophobia? (Maybe it’s just an ugly jacket, or maybe none of them understand style!)

Pretty obviously no, right?

There are obviously some words that can certainly have a very negative “flavour” depending on how and by whom they’re used, words like “queer” or “trans”… but generic game criticism or generic criticism of a creator is not one of those things.

Originally Posted by Cole436

I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with stating we should be aware and mindful of the way we post and talk about people, especially in situations like this as it can easily be misinterpreted due to everything posted above.

Sure, there isn’t. But there is literally nothing in H&L’s post that indicated even subtle anti-semitism, nor has there been a hint of homophobia or incel behaviour in criticism in this thread or the other one. You essentially have to misinterpret it on purpose, in which case we go back to your fact that we should be aware and mindful of the way we post and talk about people, because unearned allusions to stuff like anti-semitism ain’t it.

Call it out when you actually see it. 100%. But there is no reason to call it out here.

If it was hard to imagine someone criticising something or someone without having an ulterior motive, I would even understand that, but it’s just a video game. And it has plenty of reasons for someone to have disliked their experiences with it, which then impacts their opinion about the people who made it.

The only reason to go to that well as often as you’re going to it is to either discredit any criticism as bigotry-adjacent or discourage people from sharing valid criticisms. And I’m not sure why you would want to do either.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

OK, but you kind of are. Case in point:



First, you’re suggesting people only know Druckmann because of incel anti-semites, which is just… blatantly not true? It’s not even likely. Especially now, where he’s hosted a podcast/after show for the HBO series. It no longer makes any sense to suggest that group is the likely root of awareness of Druckmann.

Second, you’re literally saying that because so much criticism came from anti-semites, that people posting similar criticisms devoid of anti-semitism still have “the flavour” of anti-semitism (unintentionally). That effectively disables making any criticism without it being suggested that you’ve said something similar to someone ####ty.

I’ll use the adidas example again. Plenty of people wear adidas. Does that mean their fashion choice has “the flavour” of nazism?

If a homophobe says my jacket looks bad, does that mean everyone who says my jacket looks bad is bringing “the flavour” of homophobia? (Maybe it’s just an ugly jacket, or maybe none of them understand style!)

Pretty obviously no, right?

There are obviously some words that can certainly have a very negative “flavour” depending on how and by whom they’re used, words like “queer” or “trans”… but generic game criticism or generic criticism of a creator is not one of those things.



Sure, there isn’t. But there is literally nothing in H&L’s post that indicated even subtle anti-semitism, nor has there been a hint of homophobia or incel behaviour in criticism in this thread or the other one. You essentially have to misinterpret it on purpose, in which case we go back to your fact that we should be aware and mindful of the way we post and talk about people, because unearned allusions to stuff like anti-semitism ain’t it.

Call it out when you actually see it. 100%. But there is no reason to call it out here.

If it was hard to imagine someone criticising something or someone without having an ulterior motive, I would even understand that, but it’s just a video game. And it has plenty of reasons for someone to have disliked their experiences with it, which then impacts their opinion about the people who made it.

The only reason to go to that well as often as you’re going to it is to either discredit any criticism as bigotry-adjacent or discourage people from sharing valid criticisms. And I’m not sure why you would want to do either.

I think I’m being really clear that I am not discouraging any criticism of the game, and if you read any of my posts I acknowledge that there are valid criticisms of the structure and narrative. I also state that people are allowed not to like or enjoy the story. In no way in any of my posts have I been gatekeeping the game or pushing away criticism of it.

My issue, very clearly, is how people talk about Neil.

Of course in 2023, his star has grown considerably from the HBO series, his appearances on the after show, and starring in the podcast. My comment about people only knowing Drukmann due to the gamergate community was specifically targeted to the audience in 2020. I should have been more clear with that.

I want to be leave no ambiguity: My problem is not criticisms of the game. It’s the personal attacks on Neil Drukmann in regards to his “ego” and the whole narrative of him making a power play to clear the board at ND so he gets all the credit. That is the playbook of the GG crowd.

I also don’t think criticising Neil is off limits at all, and I think we should be challenging his ideas. But it’s the tone in which it’s done that makes me feel uncomfortable. I really can’t think of any filmmaker, game director or writer who is criticised in such a strangely personal way.

I also want to restate that CP is not in a bubble. When people who are familiar with the discourse and issues with TLOU community read comments such as H&L, it is similar in content to the posts from the GG crowd. I know that’s not where H&L was coming from, but I think it’s important to make people aware of how things could be interpreted due to widespread anti-semetic comments that follow that same structure.

[btimbit]

I totally see what Cole is saying. When the game came out the only people that would specifically reference Druckmann by name were exactly the people he's talking about, so it is interesting seeing those same talking points (like his supposed ego being brought up numerous times) brought back up here years later, even though of course I don't think that's in any way related or intentional

[Erick Estrada]

I feel bad for the misanthropes that cooked up the story for TLOU2. How miserable do you have to be to cook up such a mean spirited and depressing story? If the goal was to make one of the most joyless experiences in video game history then mission accomplished as they managed to make a controversial game like Manhunt feel like an uplifting game by comparison. As far as I'm concerned TLOU2 will always be the A Serbian Film of video games.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I think I’m being really clear that I am not discouraging any criticism of the game, and if you read any of my posts I acknowledge that there are valid criticisms of the structure and narrative. I also state that people are allowed not to like or enjoy the story. In no way in any of my posts have I been gatekeeping the game or pushing away criticism of it.

My issue, very clearly, is how people talk about Neil.

Of course in 2023, his star has grown considerably from the HBO series, his appearances on the after show, and starring in the podcast. My comment about people only knowing Drukmann due to the gamergate community was specifically targeted to the audience in 2020. I should have been more clear with that.

I want to be leave no ambiguity: My problem is not criticisms of the game. It’s the personal attacks on Neil Drukmann in regards to his “ego” and the whole narrative of him making a power play to clear the board at ND so he gets all the credit. That is the playbook of the GG crowd.

I also don’t think criticising Neil is off limits at all, and I think we should be challenging his ideas. But it’s the tone in which it’s done that makes me feel uncomfortable. I really can’t think of any filmmaker, game director or writer who is criticised in such a strangely personal way.

I also want to restate that CP is not in a bubble. When people who are familiar with the discourse and issues with TLOU community read comments such as H&L, it is similar in content to the posts from the GG crowd. I know that’s not where H&L was coming from, but I think it’s important to make people aware of how things could be interpreted due to widespread anti-semetic comments that follow that same structure.

I don’t think you’re entirely understanding what I’m saying since you keep repeating exactly what I’m referring to, but I appreciate your perspective.

At the heart of it, what I’m trying to say is that nobody who didn’t fully wash themselves in the gamergate class of criticisms of the game is going to see H&L’s post and even think there’s anything remotely anti-semitic about it. Nor should he have to be mindful of what others were saying. If his comments had nothing to do with that, they should be able to exist on their own, but you are purposely not letting innocuous comments live on their own, and I think it’s doing the opposite of the good you think it’s doing.

Think about it this way. I’m unaware of any anti-semitic opinions about the game. H&L makes his post, I read it and think nothing of it. You read it and you say it has the flavour of a lot of anti-semitic criticism. You say of course you’re not accusing him of that, etc, but we all need to be aware of anti-semitism. So, what’s my first thought? For any normal person coming in blind, it’s “Oh, is H&L secretly anti-semitic?” You’re focused entirely on the section of people who know all about it and might pick up something in H&L’s post, for everyone else (myself included) you’re putting the idea in their head that H&L might be anti-semitic, or had been trying to sneak an anti-semitic remark past us. Is that fair?

Is that fair to that poster, or any poster, who isn’t bringing any sort of bigotry at all to the discussion? I hope you agree that the answer is “no,” so I hope you just evaluate the impact your words have, even if you excuse them as being for the greater good. Sometimes the best intentions don’t play out the way you think they will and they definitely aren’t here.

“I really can’t think of any filmmaker, game director or writer who is criticised in such a strangely personal way.”

A lot of producers, directors, and actors get the same treatment. James Gunn immediately comes to mind. Leonardo Dicaprio. Tom Cruise for years. Quentin Tarantino. I could probably go if I put any thought into it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I totally see what Cole is saying. When the game came out the only people that would specifically reference Druckmann by name were exactly the people he's talking about, so it is interesting seeing those same talking points (like his supposed ego being brought up numerous times) brought back up here years later, even though of course I don't think that's in any way related or intentional

I see it as well, but I’m pretty painfully aware how often that kind of effort to “do good” and be mindful can actually discredit any meaningful progress being made. I don’t even know if I would mention it if it was this one instance specific to the Druckmann/ego thing, but it seems to be an ongoing thing touching on a number of different criticisms.

Thinking back to both the discussion around Episode 3 of TLOU and the Flames’ Pride jersey, I distinctly remember in both instances someone having to ask if it was OK to criticize it on a personal taste level without it coming off as homophobic (from two posters I know not to be homophobic). That, to me, is having the complete opposite effect that you want as a minority. You don’t want your effort to be respected and treated like anyone else to turn into the absurd where people feel they can’t say “that jersey is ugly” because they’re worried that, somehow, they’re going to be either accused of or cautioned that homophobes say the same thing. It’s instantly discrediting of the progress you’re trying to make and puts all the focus on saying the right words instead of having the right intent.

Anyways, I won’t go on further about it. Would just like people to feel comfortable airing their thoughts on the game without having to be mindful that anything they say might also have been said by a bigot. I think we’re all smart enough to identify actual bigotry right away.

Back to the game!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I see it as well, but I’m pretty painfully aware how often that kind of effort to “do good” and be mindful can actually discredit any meaningful progress being made. I don’t even know if I would mention it if it was this one instance specific to the Druckmann/ego thing, but it seems to be an ongoing thing touching on a number of different criticisms.

Thinking back to both the discussion around Episode 3 of TLOU and the Flames’ Pride jersey, I distinctly remember in both instances someone having to ask if it was OK to criticize it on a personal taste level without it coming off as homophobic (from two posters I know not to be homophobic). That, to me, is having the complete opposite effect that you want as a minority. You don’t want your effort to be respected and treated like anyone else to turn into the absurd where people feel they can’t say “that jersey is ugly” because they’re worried that, somehow, they’re going to be either accused of or cautioned that homophobes say the same thing. It’s instantly discrediting of the progress you’re trying to make and puts all the focus on saying the right words instead of having the right intent.

Anyways, I won’t go on further about it. Would just like people to feel comfortable airing their thoughts on the game without having to be mindful that anything they say might also have been said by a bigot. I think we’re all smart enough to identify actual bigotry right away.

Back to the game!

Thank you for articulating so well your response to a viewpoint that came out of blue and I had no idea where it was coming from.

As a visible minority myself who has actually experienced real discrimination in this city, I encounter this from time to time and I think it's completely absurd that people will fence off areas of discussion and debate because it might also be a talking point used by others for discriminatory purposes. Everything must withstand the crucible of public discourse and sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[I_H8_Crawford]

I actually wonder if I would have been good with TLOU2 if they switched the order of the stories.

Start with Abby, don't reveal who her father was (show her relationship with him however), its a mystery as to who is killing all her friends, and you get to build a bond with her and the new characters. End her story at the same spot in the theatre right before confrontation with Ellie, and then jump back to Wyoming and the golf club.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don’t think you’re entirely understanding what I’m saying since you keep repeating exactly what I’m referring to, but I appreciate your perspective.

At the heart of it, what I’m trying to say is that nobody who didn’t fully wash themselves in the gamergate class of criticisms of the game is going to see H&L’s post and even think there’s anything remotely anti-semitic about it. Nor should he have to be mindful of what others were saying. If his comments had nothing to do with that, they should be able to exist on their own, but you are purposely not letting innocuous comments live on their own, and I think it’s doing the opposite of the good you think it’s doing.

Think about it this way. I’m unaware of any anti-semitic opinions about the game. H&L makes his post, I read it and think nothing of it. You read it and you say it has the flavour of a lot of anti-semitic criticism. You say of course you’re not accusing him of that, etc, but we all need to be aware of anti-semitism. So, what’s my first thought? For any normal person coming in blind, it’s “Oh, is H&L secretly anti-semitic?” You’re focused entirely on the section of people who know all about it and might pick up something in H&L’s post, for everyone else (myself included) you’re putting the idea in their head that H&L might be anti-semitic, or had been trying to sneak an anti-semitic remark past us. Is that fair?

Is that fair to that poster, or any poster, who isn’t bringing any sort of bigotry at all to the discussion? I hope you agree that the answer is “no,” so I hope you just evaluate the impact your words have, even if you excuse them as being for the greater good. Sometimes the best intentions don’t play out the way you think they will and they definitely aren’t here.

“I really can’t think of any filmmaker, game director or writer who is criticised in such a strangely personal way.”

A lot of producers, directors, and actors get the same treatment. James Gunn immediately comes to mind. Leonardo Dicaprio. Tom Cruise for years. Quentin Tarantino. I could probably go if I put any thought into it.

I understand your perspective and it’s valid. My stance is that we just need to be aware that we’re not in a bubble here at CP, and people who are walking in knowing that discourse could interpret it very poorly. Educating people on these things is usually uncomfortable for everyone involved (especially when they are unaware), but I do think it’s important to understand what’s going on around us.

For me, it wasn’t about calling out H&L, but just saying “hey, FYI the talking points you're using originated from some pretty bad groups, and is usually a dog whistle for anti-semetism, so just be aware of that”.

I do value your perspective and i thinks it’s very valid. I agree, let’s get back to the game.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I actually wonder if I would have been good with TLOU2 if they switched the order of the stories.

Start with Abby, don't reveal who her father was (show her relationship with him however), its a mystery as to who is killing all her friends, and you get to build a bond with her and the new characters. End her story at the same spot in the theatre right before confrontation with Ellie, and then jump back to Wyoming and the golf club.

it's an interesting concept, but I think people would have been equally pissed if the game made them bond with her first, only to have her kill Joel in brutal fashion.

I fully get the "the structure didn't work for me" argument. It's flawed for sure, and I do think it could be massively improved. But I also struggle to come up with a "perfect" structure that makes sense both from a narrative and gameplay standpoint. This is where the TV series will have a huge advantage, they can go about it in a completely different way and I'm sure they will.