Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by lanny9

NIK, I have given ideas of what should be done. You and I disagree on this but asking me for ideas over and over again is useless to the discussion. I am not saying that you take action immediately. Of course you take in the facts, try to gather evidence but a strong statement by Obama would be a good idea. He needed to say that if it is proven that the rebels shot this down and that the equipment was supplied by Russia that there will be severe consequences.

You don't threaten other countries or world leaders in a game of 'what if'.

You take a deep breath and figure out exactly what happened first.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Maybe...so I guess the US should start taking up a yearly "world security" tax/collection from all of the other countries in order to maintain world security? And if a country doesn't pay up, it doesn't get the benefit of US assistance?

I don't know what Canada's tax amount would be, but perhaps handing over the Provinces of B.C. and Alberta would be a good down payment.

You in for that?

Hey, I agree with you that the U.S. shouldn't be on the hook for policing the world, but let's not pretend that there aren't ulterior motives for getting involved when they do. I can't think of too many situations when the U.S. became unilaterally involved in a conflict simply for altruistic purposes (nor do any other countries for that matter).

There are conflicts going on around the globe that the U.S. hasn't policed because no one stood to gain.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

That could be attributed to many normal things like upper winds, and ATC routed flight plans.

Apparently storms to the south is what they said on CNN, so they had to take a more northerly track.

[Sliver]

Why are we so incapable of ignoring trolls on this site? Guys, just quit taking the bait.

[Wastedyouth]

Can we not start world war 3 until I get back on Canadian soil next week? Is that ok. Lanny9??

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why are we so incapable of ignoring trolls on this site? Guys, just quit taking the bait.

Sorry, I'm done now. That last post of his was a gem.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I agree, I'm just pointing out that there is really no way it was done by accident if done by someone who even kind of knew what they were doing. Clearly the only two possibilities are untrained people getting access to very complex weaponry in an irresponsible fashion, or intentional misdirection. I really don't believe the latter happened.

It happens even with professional armies with well trained service members.

I dont know any information, but i think it's important to not jump to ANY conclusions at this point.

It really could be an accident.

Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a commercial flight operated by Iran Air that flew from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai, UAE. On July 3, 1988, towards the end of the Iran-Iraq War, the aircraft flying IR655 was shot down by the U.S. Navy Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes when it fired a SM-2MR surface-to-air missile. The airplane was destroyed between Bandar Abbas and Dubai, killing all 290 passengers and crew. It was later claimed by United States Government that USS Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time of the attack, and IR655, an Airbus A300, was misidentified as an Iranian F-14.

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Hey, I agree with you that the U.S. shouldn't be on the hook for policing the world, but let's not pretend that there aren't ulterior motives for getting involved when they do. I can't think of too many situations when the U.S. became unilaterally involved in a conflict simply for altruistic purposes (nor do any other countries for that matter).

There are conflicts going on around the globe that the U.S. hasn't policed because no one stood to gain.

You are absolutely correct, and the selective-intervention that the US does drives me crazy (and drastically undermines whatever claim of "moral standing" that the US likes to wave about from time to time).

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You don't threaten other countries or world leaders in a game of 'what if'.

You take a deep breath and figure out exactly what happened first.

"If it was you, I'm going to get you!"

"oh, it wasn't you? Cool. Let's still be friends though, Ok? I meant no offence"

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by lanny9

Talking heads are the ones who set the tone though. A strong tone would send a message to Russia and their rebels, talk of potential action if things are proven out as it looks, talk about hard hitting sanctions, talk up pushing NATO to get involved etc. Tone is what I have a problem with at this moment, nothing more really.

You quite clearly have no experience or training in crisis communications. I, on the other hand, do. I haven't yet seen the Obama speech that has you so full of rage, but here's what I would have recommended he said, in this order:

1. Express sadness and condolences on behalf of the American people to the loved ones of the victims
2. Freely offer any assistance the US government can provide
3. Outline any steps being taken to protect American lives and interests (e.g. FAA ordering US airlines to avoid this area)
4. State that it's too early to speculate about the cause of the crash, but that the White House is monitoring the situation closely

[burn_this_city]

Obama better have scrambled the B-2s already, if not he's just dithering.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It was almost certainly an accident.

Negative, On the BUK weapon system, there is something very similar to what NATO uses that helps us differentiate Military from Civilian Aircraft.
Without breaking the law, I will describe it as best I can...
ALL Civilian airlines, especially international flights have one. They Squawk a Commercial identification code, and any transponder can pick it up and ID everything about that flight. Its tough to think the pilot was not squawking his IFF(Ident friend or Foe). If he was failing to do so over a "Hot Zone" ... well ... The BUK certainly has one. Weather or not the operator on the platform knows how to use it is another story.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't buy this at all. an An-26 cub is a turboprop is about a third the size of a 777, and its operating ceiling is significantly lower then the Malaysian flight was rumored to be flying.

The Buk has its own radar, the signature would be significantly different, and on top of that the Buk has a optical backup system that would be able to visually identify the plane even at that height. This backup system is used if the Radar system fails or is jammed. The optical system can be used for both normal and infrared passive tracking of the target.



As well the Malaysian flight's transponder would be squaking civilian flight and that would show up on the radar screen in the Buk.

Either these are the worst operators ever or this guy is lying.

The first part of your statement is accurate. This is a process called ID Crit. Radar signature plays a huge part of it as well as other obvious factors such as altitude. On a AA platform, the second you go "hot" or "lockup" a target, you instantly get his altitude. That is a major part of knowing what is a threat or not.

The second bolded. - Im pretty sure I know the WORST operator EVER!

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Negative, On the BUK weapon system, there is something very similar to what NATO uses that helps us differentiate Military from Civilian Aircraft.
Without breaking the law, I will describe it as best I can...
ALL Civilian airlines, especially international flights have one. They Squawk a Commercial identification code, and any transponder can pick it up and ID everything about that flight. Its tough to think the pilot was not squawking his IFF(Ident friend or Foe). If he was failing to do so over a "Hot Zone" ... well ... The BUK certainly has one. Weather or not the operator on the platform knows how to use it is another story.



The first part of your statement is accurate. This is a process called ID Crit. Radar signature plays a huge part of it as well as other obvious factors such as altitude. On a AA platform, the second you go "hot" or "lockup" a target, you instantly get his altitude. That is a major part of knowing what is a threat or not.

The second bolded. - Im pretty sure I know the WORST operator EVER!

love your insight on this stuff, thanks.

[Knut]

http://twitter.com/UkraineConflict/s...202880/photo/1

Airspace around the Ukraine after the crash.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Maybe...so I guess the US should start taking up a yearly "world security" tax/collection from all of the other countries in order to maintain world security? And if a country doesn't pay up, it doesn't get the benefit of US assistance?

I don't know what Canada's tax amount would be, but perhaps handing over the Provinces of B.C. and Alberta would be a good down payment.

You in for that?

I have to agree with this. Not the tax, but the tone and the general point. Why is the US expected to be the ones reacting to this? This is a human problem, shouldn't we all be concerned about it? People calling for Obama to take action (especially those from outside the US) and calling him soft for not doing so, is the rest of the world just more soft? Isn't this what the UN is supposed to be for? Putin doesn't want to follow UN rules? Boot them. I dont understand how this hasn't happened yet for a bunch of other countries, but the strength/resolve of the UN is a different discussion, it's fuction is supposed to be stopping things like this.

The reason Obama is apprehensive about military action is pretty obvious. They are just stretched too thin world wide and dont have the resources to back it up anymore, much less go further. Obama knows this. Random guy in Arkansas calling to nuke the commie pinko basterds doesn't understand that. And the US "news" stations are seemingly purposefully oblivious to it.

Everyone bitches and moans when the US plays world police, and now were all bitching and moaning when they don't. Do you want security or soveriegnty? It can't really be both in situations like this.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You don't threaten other countries or world leaders in a game of 'what if'.

You take a deep breath and figure out exactly what happened first.

No you don't "threaten" militarily against Russia but make it be known that this will not be tolerated by the world community. The US has continued to threaten Russia with more sanctions, so I don't see it any different than what they have done so far in regard to the sanctions. Europe just this week threatened more sanctions.

The thing is what we know about this whole situation is very little compared to what the intelligence community knows. They know full well that these heavy artilleries are coming from Russia, they know full well that those were Russian troops in Crimea who had simply taken off the Russian flag on their uniforms. Putin knows full well what he is doing here, it is all part of his plan.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It happens even with professional armies with well trained service members.

I dont know any information, but i think it's important to not jump to ANY conclusions at this point.

It really could be an accident.

It can't be an accident by trained professionals. This is a completely different Era than 1988 when we're talking about identifying aircraft. I can identify the aircraft above me with my cell phone now even.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Negative, On the BUK weapon system, there is something very similar to what NATO uses that helps us differentiate Military from Civilian Aircraft.
Without breaking the law, I will describe it as best I can...
ALL Civilian airlines, especially international flights have one. They Squawk a Commercial identification code, and any transponder can pick it up and ID everything about that flight. Its tough to think the pilot was not squawking his IFF(Ident friend or Foe). If he was failing to do so over a "Hot Zone" ... well ... The BUK certainly has one. Weather or not the operator on the platform knows how to use it is another story.

When I said it was almost certainly an accident, I meant that the SAM operators likely didn't intend to shoot down a commercial airliner carrying nearly 300 civilians. Nobody has anything to gain from that. This tragedy was either caused by inexperienced rebels not knowing how to properly operate the BUK system or Russian or Ukrainian forces making a terrible mistake akin to the US Navy shooting down Iran Air 655.

[lanny9]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why are we so incapable of ignoring trolls on this site? Guys, just quit taking the bait.

Now I am a troll, precious post! I mean just because you hold a different opinion doesn't mean that mine should be heard. That is what is great about a free and open society that many millions have died for.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

love your insight on this stuff, thanks.

+1 for this IgiTang. We will, however, disavow all knowledge of you if CSIS comes asking