Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[TurnedTheCorner]

Sometimes they're easy, you mean.

Or perhaps you remember a magical land where dentist visits were free and there were no taxes of any kind?

Apples and oranges, man.

[SebC]

I believe Vancouver looked at turnstiles and found out the cost of installing them was more than the cost of people cheating the system.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by SebC

I believe Vancouver looked at turnstiles and found out the cost of installing them was more than the cost of people cheating the system.

And turnstiles don't stop people from cheating the system either.

[ken0042]

If turnstiles are not cost effective, then they need to step up enforcement. When I first moved to Calgary in 1992 I would say I was checked quite regularily. I stopped taking the train from about 1993 to 1999, but then from 1999 until now I have been asked for my ticket once; just a few weeks ago. That includes a period of time where I took the train every day.

I also know of people who brag about not paying in years. Maybe if we stepped up enforcement people would either start paying or stop taking the train. Either way we would either raise the money coming in, or ease the burden on the system. At somewhere around $200 per ticket; if a pair of officers wrote 1 ticket per hour that would cover the cost of policing it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by ken0042

If turnstiles are not cost effective, then they need to step up enforcement. When I first moved to Calgary in 1992 I would say I was checked quite regularily. I stopped taking the train from about 1993 to 1999, but then from 1999 until now I have been asked for my ticket once; just a few weeks ago. That includes a period of time where I took the train every day.

I always hear stories like this and I'm floored. I think three times this month I've been checked.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I always hear stories like this and I'm floored. I think three times this month I've been checked.

Of the last 10 times I've been on the train, I've probably been checked 5 times. I'm not on very often, though.

[ken0042]

I think it comes down to a couple of factors:

- Mostly traveling during rush hour
- Not getting off at the first stop downtown (I have seen them checking people as they get off at the first stop; and have seen people who "suddenly" change their mind about getting off at that stop.)

The one time I was checked a few weeks ago was in the middle of the day, I had to go to the Saddledome for some reason.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by temple5

If they want to make up the funding deficit, they should install the turnstiles and hire more officers to check for tickets.

I know at least a couple of people who openly brag about not paying for tickets durring rush hour because its so packed in the train they would never check and they only ride at peak times so they never pay.

Beyond a certain point, increased fare enforcement costs more than the fares that would be recouped by doing so. The Calgary Transit organization would be better able to say what that point is, but I'd imagine that we are close to it now. The marginal cost of increased fare enforcement, whatever form it takes, is high compared to the cost that fare evaders place on the system, which is low. Labour is expensive. At a certain point some people will be dissuaded from evading fare and the rest will just do so anyway, and the costs of doing more enforcement just won't see much return (law of diminishing returns).

Making the LRT system "closed" is also likely not in the offing. Turnstiles and other such devices would, on a functional basis only, probably get fare evasion numbers down. However, people still evade fare on systems that use turnstiles. They have to be a little more inventive about it, but still do. On an implementation basis, the way many stations are designed in Calgary doesn't lend itself to putting in turnstiles. Think of walk-on centre-load stations such as McKnight-Westwinds and Somerset-Bridlewood, or staggered side-load platforms like Shawnessy Station and the future Martindale Station. Turnstiles might be able to be installed, but at the expense of pedestrian and train flow, and in some cases safety. Turnstiles can also not replace officers. There needs to be a human presence for safety and security reasons. This is of course without mentioning the capital cost of installation, and the operational costs of this equipment.

Of course, this is viewing the topic of transit peace officers in the context of their value in enforcing fare payment. It does not take into account any value that would be placed on an authority presence's role in increasing real or perceived public safety and security.

tl;dr:

Installing turnstiles and having more officers probably won't make up the funding deficit, as you suggest, because it costs more money to do this than the fare payments they would be enforcing.

[stampsx2]

So why not double or triple the fine. Seems like an easy fix.

They should also be checking for payment at the platform exits, not on the train. That way you have as much time as ou need.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

So why not double or triple the fine. Seems like an easy fix.

I was about to make a post about this further to my one above. An increase to the fine is in the works. Not sure how far along this is (when the increase will happen), nor how much the increase is. From what I have heard, the increase will be substantial.

[frinkprof]

Heritage and Fish Creek-Lacombe Stations are the next in line for work toward 4-car platforms. Both will have construction commence on July 16th, but will remain open while this is taking place.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/he...n_20120716.pdf

http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/fi...n_20120716.pdf

[Barnes]

Anyone know if anything is happening with the SE Transitway? The BRT and SE Express busses are now consistently held up in a massive amount of traffic on single lane roads through Ogden and Douglasglenn. I vehemently argued against moving the express buses to Ogden road from Deerfoot and CT's response was always the new route provided more consistent timing. The 151 is now consistently 15 - 20 mins later than scheduled.

It takes less time to take the Copperfield bus to Sommerset than the Copperfield bus to the BRT. The Express bus takes over an hour because it dicks around in communities like douglas glenn and quarry park whom already are serviced by the BRT and local expresses.

I am not sure CT is aware of what the R in BRT means or the definition of Express.

[SebC]

^ I am not sure you're aware that there are places where you could live that are closer to the core than Copperfield.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by SebC

^ I am not sure you're aware that there are places where you could live that are closer to the core than Copperfield.

I am aware. Sometimes I am forced off the bus due to a full bladder after having too many beers at work and relieve myself in said areas. Lots of big, mature bushes.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Anyone know if anything is happening with the SE Transitway? The BRT and SE Express busses are now consistently held up in a massive amount of traffic on single lane roads through Ogden and Douglasglenn. I vehemently argued against moving the express buses to Ogden road from Deerfoot and CT's response was always the new route provided more consistent timing. The 151 is now consistently 15 - 20 mins later than scheduled.

It takes less time to take the Copperfield bus to Sommerset than the Copperfield bus to the BRT. The Express bus takes over an hour because it dicks around in communities like douglas glenn and quarry park whom already are serviced by the BRT and local expresses.

I am not sure CT is aware of what the R in BRT means or the definition of Express.

Originally Posted by SebC

^ I am not sure you're aware that there are places where you could live that are closer to the core than Copperfield.

I think SebC is being a bit dickish in his response, but the message is based in truth. Now, although I try to keep it out of this thread for the most part, I too share a lot of contempt for Douglasdale, Mackenzie Towne and points south (and east). The contempt and general disdain grows the further south and east you go. Just to get it out in the open, I'm of the opinion that the developments that have occured in this area from the 80s up until now (and ongoing) ought to have never ocurred.

That aside and (grudgingly) accepting that we're left with this mess and that people currently live there, those people (and everyone else) should be aware that these areas are inherently difficult to serve by transit and furthermore require higher-than-otherwise-normal investment in infrastsructure to serve effectively with other modes of transportation too. The basic fact is that these areas are separated from the rest of the city (let alone downtown) by a huge freeway. And a river. And miles upon miles of expansive (not to mention poorly laid out and unattractive) industrial parks. You can't check off all three of those for any other area of the city.

Poor (comparatively) transit service is an inherent trait of living in that area. In turn, better or good transit service comes at an inherently higher cost to implement.

I just think that people have to be realistic about expectations here. Having a freeway (that up to this point, is the only high volume route into and out of the area) that can be wildly unreliable for travel time consistency and a couple or three circuituous low-capacity-slightly-more-reliable-and-work-in-progress "alternate" routes is just the situation right now, and it's lucky that this hard-and-expensive-to-connect area has that much going for it.

Anyway, the original question was about the SE Transitway. It (along with 50 new LRVs and the rest of the Green TRIP package) is awaiting the funding to be handed down from the Province.

I know I've kind of belaboured this post, but I want to make it clear that I absolutely want to see transit improved in the city with the southeast LRT catchment area included. I try to keep that principle separated a bit from most of what I just talked about above, so I'm with you Mackenzie Towners on that.

[SebC]

On a more serious note, I do think that CT should shift it's balance a bit away from consistent timing and towards more frequent service. Some of the the timepoint stops are overly long, and this causes both longer trip times and wait times between buses.

I had a job where I took the 72/73 from Chinook to the industrial zone on Barlow and that was a nightmare, because that bus serves Deerfoot Meadows as well and has a timepoint stop at IKEA. Would've liked to have seen Deerfoot Meadows have it's own route.

[Barnes]

Well, thanks for the lecture, I guess. So effectively existing transit in the SE can't be improved because it's challenging.

Existing routes that don't meet their primary objectives, driven by drivers who are usually being paid overtime, serving the same low demand, high vehicle traffic areas with numerous bus routes is the best we can do.

I am not asking for a bullet train to my office door just that CT maybe re-evaluate their decisions.

They pay lip service to riders in terms of surveys and open houses yet fail to understand that a number of people would prefer to burden the south line by driving to Anderson, Sommerset or take the community bus to the LRT because it is faster, more convenient alternative to SE transit. Look at the comments from the open house in January.

[Arsenal14]

Survey on the new C-Train route maps and proposed color scheme (blue for the NE line, red for NW/S): https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CTrainMap

Or if you just want to see the proposed map: http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/In...ard_CT_MAP.pdf

[Bunk]

I like the newer map better. I would say that they should indicate walking distance to the destinations they list. Also the 7th ave section is confusing - the dots for stations should straddle the two lines as they serve both lines.

[You Need a Thneed]

Why create a version of the map with Saddletowne and Martindale marked as future at this point. Also, why no mention of the west line?

Also, according to the map, which station do you get off at to go to the Telus Spark? Some of the places of interest are placed confusingly.