Electrical Question - Kitchen Reno

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

What's your thinking on this?

I regularly run a vacuum cleaner off of AFCI protected outlets with no issues.

AFCIs are engineered to detect any type of electrical motor arcing which vacuums, especially ones with some wear on them, have been known to do. same with paper shredders, treadmills, etc.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by DropIt

AFCIs are engineered to detect any type of electrical motor arcing which vacuums, especially ones with some wear on them, have been known to do. same with paper shredders, treadmills, etc.

I've heard this is a bigger issue with the pre-2013 AFCIs and less of an issue with the post-2013 CAFCIs. That said, I heard that on contractor forums so it's just dudes bantering.

[PsYcNeT]

Thread necro:

So I took apart the island last night (last step - woo) because we want to re-align it in a different direction and expand it, and I built a new surround/cabinets.

There are two electrical pieces that were attached to the island, both coming up under the sink: One, there is a 15A 120v line feeding the garbourator receptacle (non-GFCI) which is activated by a switch, and Two, there is a 15A Dual Pole 240v line running into a 15A 125v receptacle attached to the side of the island (facing out) which isn't GFCI either. This is literally the only thing that this line feeds.

Looking at the install job, I'm going to guess both were installed after the fact by a previous homeowner (though I'm not 100% on the 90s rules for when the home was built). Additionally, the 240v line was installed using 12/3, but again only feeds a single receptacle.

Is there any reason I shouldn't just straight up terminate/delete the 240v line and disassemble it? I have full access to the entire run through the basement to the box, so it wouldn't be much work. It seems frivolous and possibly dangerous (though I could be wrong, I know 240v lines can feed 120v but I'm not up on the specifics). I only require the garboratour circuit, because I am going to feed that to (an already mounted) GFCI box on an exterior portion of my prebuilt surround, then run the line back to the receptacle under the sink (which I've replaced with a GFCI). The undersink one will then be controlled via switch.

I can't think of any reason why I would want to maintain a 240v line to the island...

[PaperBagger'14]

Good job on replacing the GFCI, smart and appropriate. That 240v line is actually 2X 120V circuits, I'm gonna try and draw it out simplistically to show you how it works:

This is one half of a transformer
______________________________
|"""""""""""""""""""|"""""""""""""""""""""|

Red---120V-----White-----120V----Black

Between your red and black you have 240v but they are capable of sharing one white and using 120v. Now if you look at the plugs on your island there will be a white wire going to the tin side and a black and a red wire going to the other side. The little tab connecting the 2 brass screws together on the plug will be broken, meaning you have one circuit on the top plug and one circuit on the bottom.

If it were me I would definitely keep it as more plugs in a kitchen is a good thing.

[Nufy]

Are you sure its a 240 VAC line and not a single 120 feed for each plug in the receptacle ?

Check to see if the tab is broken off between the two plugs to confirm.

[2Stonedbirds]

If there is a two pole breaker feeding a *120v* receptacle I would for sure take the lines feeding that receptacle off the breaker. Feeding equipment rated for 120v with 240v usually results in letting the smoke out of said equipment.

But an island plug is always handy. I wouldn't remove the wire myself, I'd just replace the two pole breaker with a single pole, take the white conductor from the cable, terminate under your neutral bar, take the hot conductor and feed it with 15 or 20 amp breaker. Make sure you do have #12 wire though before pounding 20 amps to it.

Homeowner must have done that or an apprentice at 4:30 on a Friday.

Only reason for supplying 240v to the island would be for a flush mount cooktop or something. No need otherwise.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Good job on replacing the GFCI, smart and appropriate. That 240v line is actually 2X 120V circuits, I'm gonna try and draw it out simplistically to show you how it works:

This is one half of a transformer
______________________________
|"""""""""""""""""""|"""""""""""""""""""""|

Red---120V-----White-----120V----Black

Between your red and black you have 240v but they are capable of sharing one white and using 120v. Now if you look at the plugs on your island there will be a white wire going to the tin side and a black and a red wire going to the other side. The little tab connecting the 2 brass screws together on the plug will be broken, meaning you have one circuit on the top plug and one circuit on the bottom.

If it were me I would definitely keep it as more plugs in a kitchen is a good thing.

Ah that makes sense. Is that kind of config usable with a GFCI? The wiring diagram that came with the receptacle shows the two upper screws controlling the Line and the bottom controlling the Load:

[2Stonedbirds]

Nufy makes a great point. Just noticed its 12/3 feeding that cct. Must have been for a split receptacle.

[Fuzz]

No, you can't split a GFCI. The bottom poles on the GFCI are to protect receptacles downstream of the GFCI. So you can have several receptables on a circuit, all protected by one GFCI.

[PaperBagger'14]

Can't split the GFCI receptacle but you can install either a 240v GFCI breaker or 2x GFCI dead front (dead fronts are a bunch cheaper and look like a GFCI plug without the actual connection).

[speede5]

I think you are seeing the result of someone trying to build to code but not understanding the rule.

Oulets in a kitchen must be split if they are 15A. So it is normal to have 14/3 coming up to your receptacles. If you use 20A outlets and 12/2 you don't have to split your receptacles.

Whomever did that probably ran 12/3 but used the 15A split rule. That's my best guess. There's nothing wrong with tha, he may have been using up some old wire, but it is confusing down the road. As long as it is hooked to a breaker that matches the weakest component in the cct it's still technically legal.

GFCI rules still apply but would probably not have been required on the island as it is probably far enough away from the sink.

Edit: re read your post and see the sink is in the island, so GFCI would be required.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by speede5

I think you are seeing the result of someone trying to build to code but not understanding the rule.

Oulets in a kitchen must be split if they are 15A. So it is normal to have 14/3 coming up to your receptacles. If you use 20A outlets and 12/2 you don't have to split your receptacles.

Whomever did that probably ran 12/3 but used the 15A split rule. That's my best guess. There's nothing wrong with tha, he may have been using up some old wire, but it is confusing down the road. As long as it is hooked to a breaker that matches the weakest component in the cct it's still technically legal.

GFCI rules still apply but would probably not have been required on the island as it is probably far enough away from the sink.

Edit: re read your post and see the sink is in the island, so GFCI would be required.

Yep it (was) immediately beside the sink. Kind of a big miss on their part.

[sa226]

Im going to piggy back on this thread to ask my own question. Its very simple, but I just want to make sure with this new electrical code stuff.

Picture your basic living room, with your basic gas fireplace and outlets throughout the living room.

We demoed around the fireplace because we want to redo the mantle. Now that we have access in behind the drywall we would like to add an outlet where the new mantle will be.

So, basically how do I do this? Can I tap off the existing circuit of the other living room outlets? I know that any modification has to be up to code, so is it easier to just slap on an AFCI outlet, or should I do the breaker for the entire circuit?

Thanks

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Can't split the GFCI receptacle but you can install either a 240v GFCI breaker or 2x GFCI dead front (dead fronts are a bunch cheaper and look like a GFCI plug without the actual connection).

I have the same scenario. Am I right in that a dead front will add an accessible gfci for everything downstream, but then eliminates the plug at that spot? There's only one outlet on my island so I'm hoping to keep it.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I have the same scenario. Am I right in that a dead front will add an accessible gfci for everything downstream, but then eliminates the plug at that spot? There's only one outlet on my island so I'm hoping to keep it.

Usually a dead front is installed beside your electrical panel. You simply remove the hot and neutral from your panel and terminate that set of wires in the dead front and run an additional set back to the panel. In your case a GFCI plug sounds much easier (if I'm reading it correctly).

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Usually a dead front is installed beside your electrical panel. You simply remove the hot and neutral from your panel and terminate that set of wires in the dead front and run an additional set back to the panel. In your case a GFCI plug sounds much easier (if I'm reading it correctly).

Thanks. I am probably not explaining well. I have a 12/3 line with 2 pole 15 Amp breaker. It runs to a split receptacle on the kitchen island. No GFCI.

I don't *think* I can get a split GFCI plug?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Thanks. I am probably not explaining well. I have a 12/3 line with 2 pole 15 Amp breaker. It runs to a split receptacle on the kitchen island. No GFCI.

I don't *think* I can get a split GFCI plug?

Correct you can't split it, sorry I didn't read realize your feed was a 3 wire. The 2x dead fronts will probably be the easiest method, same as psycnet.

[kevman]

Also piggy backing this thread...

When I had my panel replaced 5 years ago they installed blank face GFCI's beside the panel for all of the old ungrounded circuits. Does the new AFCI breaker rule take precedence over this? I don't plan on modifying these circuits, I'm just curious what the code says is the best way to protect old ungrounded circuits.

[PsYcNeT]

New question:

So my island is built and my counters are in, and I'm wiring up a new series of lights, which will include 3 hanging lights (individual boxes) over the island. Unfortunately, the joists above are situated smack dab perfect for the light locations, so in effect, using a 1.5"/2.5" octo box, I can take my pick of lights hanging 2.5" off centre to the right or the left.

I know .5" "pan" octo boxes are a thing, but I was wondering if it's code-worthy to have them circuit (14/2 in > 14/2 out) since they are so shallow. Would save me a huge headache if this was a doable thing, and make my wife a lot happier as well.

[speede5]

http://www.tnb.ca/en/pdf-catalogues/...fill-chart.pdf

Your box should have he volume stamped on it and you could use this guide to figure it out but those pancakes are good for only one 14/2.

EDIT: You could put a junction box somewhere between the switch and the lights and run one cable to each light, or if you have the capacity run one cable for each light right from the switch. If your switch is in a ganged box you might have a fair bit of unused capacity.