Flames vs Avs vs Leafs

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Well done spending 45 minutes trying to prove an NHL article wrong Oil Stain. That is quite the joke of a rebuttal, but I'd expect nothing less from a pathetic Oiler fan.

The LA Kings didn't have fantastic third periods under their old fitness coach. The whole article is a joke and you can't build any kind of logical defense of it so you resort to insults.

Carry on.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The LA Kings didn't have fantastic third periods under their old fitness coach. The whole article is a joke and you can't build any kind of logical defense of it so you resort to insults.

Carry on.

The joke is trying to use advance statistics to quantify the impact of a strength and conditioning coach.

All boils down to Oil Stain be staining. Same ol same ol.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

The joke is trying to use advance statistics to quantify the impact of a strength and conditioning coach.

All boils down to Oil Stain be staining. Same ol same ol.

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down.

It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down.

Nope, as usual you're more interested in your insecurity than actually looking at what's being said.

Part of the Flames success last year is that they were one of the hardest working teams in the league. This was widely noted and accepted, but because you cheer for a team that was one of the laziest devoid of any semblance of two-way play or effort, you feel the need to lash out citing that the Flames have no advantage in those areas (because those are really foreign concepts to you at the end of the day).

It's really a simple point, but your agenda in what brings you here has you doing what you always do.

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

This really sums up what you're all about. Sheer and utter nonsense. The NHL did write about Hartley, and it was pertaining to his "Coach of the Year" caliber season... one in which he instilled one of the best work ethics in the league through high tempo practices and a high emphasis on strength and conditioning.

Don't let facts get in the way of your insecurity induced mud slinging though.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

You really miss the point a lot.

I'm the one saying there is no evidence that a new conditioning coach leads to more goals.

You are arguing that its true.

You have everything upside down.

It appears that if NHL.com wrote an article saying the Flames won the first round of the playoffs last season because Hartley had a magic rock in his pocket, you'd defend that too.

So every talking head praises Calgary's fitness level, the players themselves attribute their wins to hard work, and the coach does as well. NHL.com puts out an article reiterating that, and you disagree with said article.

I know I'm smarter than a lot of pundits, but not all of them. You are obviously smarter than all the analysts though.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

So every talking head praises Calgary's fitness level, the players themselves attribute their wins to hard work, and the coach does as well. NHL.com puts out an article reiterating that, and you disagree with said article.

I know I'm smarter than a lot of pundits, but not all of them. You are obviously smarter than all the analysts though.

Its not about who is smarter, it's about pundits doing what they get paid to do.

They get paid to sell stories. They aren't going to say that they aren't quite sure about the exact combination of factors that led to the Flames scoring a tonne of goals in the third period because that's not easy to watch TV.

The LA Kings are famous for being one of the hardest working teams in hockey and they missed the playoffs last year.

The Flames hired the Kings strength and conditioning coach last offseason. I think its fair to say that the Kings would have been in the same ball park as the Flames in terms of conditioning so there is obviously way more at play than "conditioning" when talking about third period come backs.

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

The Flames were clean and sober. Kings not so much.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its not about who is smarter, it's about pundits doing what they get paid to do.

They get paid to sell stories. They aren't going to say that they aren't quite sure about the exact combination of factors that led to the Flames scoring a tonne of goals in the third period because that's not easy to watch TV.

The LA Kings are famous for being one of the hardest working teams in hockey and they missed the playoffs last year.

The Flames hired the Kings strength and conditioning coach last offseason. I think its fair to say that the Kings would have been in the same ball park as the Flames in terms of conditioning so there is obviously way more at play than "conditioning" when talking about third period come backs.

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

As usual, you get called on your BS and you move the goalposts of what's being discussed.

You said you find it hard to believe the Flames are any more well-conditioned than any other team in the league.

This was something widely accepted, and it's been pointed out (whether you'll acknowledge or admit it to yourself or others or not) the reason you don't believe it is because it makes you angry.

There isn't going to be a way to link statistics to how fitness levels translate to wins and losses, but all year long we watched the Flames work consistently from the start of the game to the end. A full sixty minute effort more often than not. Both the coach and players noted that it starts with the tempo at which they practice and translates to full sixty minute efforts that often aren't matched by the other teams.

Whether that can be quantified or calculated is irrelevant. We watched it, and it translated as one of many factors that made up a winning environment.

Once again, things that are foreign concepts to you as an Oilers fan, and an underlaying reason why this topic annoys you.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

As usual, you get called on your BS and you move the goalposts of what's being discussed.

You said you find it hard to believe the Flames are any more well-conditioned than any other team in the league.

This was something widely accepted, and it's been pointed out (whether you'll acknowledge or admit it to yourself or others or not) the reason you don't believe it is because it makes you angry.

There isn't going to be a way to link statistics to how fitness levels translate to wins and losses, but all year long we watched the Flames work consistently from the start of the game to the end. A full sixty minute effort more often than not. Both the coach and players noted that it starts with the tempo at which they practice and translates to full sixty minute efforts that often aren't matched by the other teams.

Whether that can be quantified or calculated is irrelevant. We watched it, and it translated as one of many factors that made up a winning environment.

Once again, things that are foreign concepts to you as an Oilers fan, and an underlaying reason why this topic annoys you.

The Oilers are the Michael Sam or Eugenie Bouchard of hockey. All sorts of hype, the media loves them, historic franchise, stories and endorsements galore... but on the playing field, they have no substance. Competition weeds out the pretenders. True sports fans care about the competition, and not all the other superfluous stuff.

That is why the Oiler fans can't understand what is going on. They have everything going for them, except an on-ice product.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

I'm convinced that the only fans who still support the Oilers after this past decade are absolutely out of their mind delusional. Oil Stain backs up this argument to a T. No amount of factual evidence will be enough to convince them.

And if you want to get into media being paid to sell stories, what about the stories they've been selling you Oiler fans for the past 10 years? You have been suckered into cheering for an organization that hasn't respected it's fan base in years. If I was a terrible human being who cheered for the Oilers since 2006, maybe I'd find myself on a rival teams forum trying to talk their team down also.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I'm convinced that the only fans who still support the Oilers after this past decade are absolutely out of their mind delusional. Oil Stain backs up this argument to a T. No amount of factual evidence will be enough to convince them.

And if you want to get into media being paid to sell stories, what about the stories they've been selling you Oiler fans for the past 10 years? You have been suckered into cheering for an organization that hasn't respected it's fan base in years. If I was a terrible human being who cheered for the Oilers since 2006, maybe I'd find myself on a rival teams forum trying to talk their team down also.

Wow. I feel bad for you man. That is a lot of vitriol for something as meaningless as sports team support.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Wow. I feel bad for you man.

I'm not the Tier 2 fan cheering for a team that has been record breaking awful. Don't feel bad for me bud.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Maybe not. Flames play a different (or same but slightly ahead of the pack in ways) and complete game. Activated D is a key piece of the overall game.

Corsi is based on volume of shots and not critical decision making.

Is high shooting percentage an anomaly or a product of the emphasis on hockey IQ? Incidentally, this change started under Feaster

This

the Flames panned on possession numbers and volume of shot numbers because they don't play that style.

A lot of the advanced Stats were built to measure teams that play the Detroit system of hockey, until the stats take into effects shots area and successes based on shot areas, they're going to fail to measure teams that play off of the rush and attack key scoring areas.

The Flames had poor possession numbers because they don't play the style of Detroit or LA, they don't bury the puck on the boards and mess with it in the corners.

While possession numbers would make sense for blueline pairings in terms of times spent in their own zone with and without possession.

If a team comes whipping down the ice and sets up a great scoring opportunity versus a team that cycles in the corner for 5 minutes to get a scoring change, the rush team is getting punished.

A team with a collapsing defense that pushes teams to the outside where they have to cycle is going to lose the possession battle, but the quality of scoring chances is probably going to be lopsided to the defensive team because they do a good job of protecting the key scoring areas.

As much as people like to use advanced stats, sometimes they fail the eye test.

The Flames were very good last year in terms of forcing teams to shoot from the outside edges and letting teams mess around with the puck in non threatening areas.

Not all teams are the Red Wings or the Kinds or even the ducks.

The offensive system for the Flames has been very good for almost two seasons now, but they're possession numbers aren't great. I'll take our system thanks.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

If conditioning and hard work were the largest contributing factors to come from behind wins then you would expect the Kings to be up with Calgary at the top of the league last season.

But they weren't.

Both teams had decent, but still losing records in games where they trailed at the end of the 2nd period:

2013-14 Kings - 6-21-3 (.250)
2014-15 Flames - 10-20-4 (.353)
2014-15 Oilers - 2-32-3 (0.095)

Both teams were made comebacks in the playoffs, where conditioning in OT can be a huge factor:
2013-14 Kings PO - 4-8 (.333)
2014-15 Flames PO - (3-3) (.500)

Both teams were good at come away with points in games tied after 2 periods:

2013-14 Kings - 13-4-5 (0.705)
2014-15 Flames - 11-9-2 (.545)
2014-15 Oilers 5-8-5 (0.417)

Both teams' RS success had a lot more to more to do with their ability to hold leads with their conditioning and hard work:

2014-15 Flames - 24-1-1 (0.942)
2013-14 Kings - 27-3-0 (0.900)
2014-15 Oilers - 17-4-6 (0.741)

If the Oilers merely had the lesser of either LA/Calgary's ability in third periods, this is what their record looks like:

Trailing: 8-26-3 (.257)
Evens: 9-8-1 (.528)
Leading: 24-2-1 (.907)

Season record: 41-36-5 (87 Points)

Conditioning is very much a part of the difference between a 62 point team and an 87 point team. And if the Oilers had the greater of LA/Calgary's third period ability:

Trailing - 13-24-0 (.351)
Evens - 12-5-1 (.694)
Leading - 25-1-1 (.944)

Season record - 50-30-2 (102 Points)

Still think conditioning don't mean much? On average that's a 95 point season for EDMONTON if their 3rd period performances are between as good as the Kings and the Flames.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Weitz

A big change this year is I think teams will push the Flames even when they are winning. I think a lot of the struggles the Flames had last year was when teams pushed hard up the ice and fore checked.

I don't think anyone will be taking the Flames lightly this year after last year.

No one took the Flames lightly last year.

Every single coach, and every single team, came to town and said: we know they are a very hard working team and if we don't match their intensity, they'll embarrass us.

You can play that down as lip service, but every team pre-scouts every other team. There are no surprises anymore.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Weitz

A big change this year is I think teams will push the Flames even when they are winning. I think a lot of the struggles the Flames had last year was when teams pushed hard up the ice and fore checked.

I don't think anyone will be taking the Flames lightly this year after last year.

You think the Kings took the Flames lightly? Even after the first two times they beat them? Or when the season was on the line?

Or how about Boston? Flames beat them in dramatic fashion in Calgary, so did they take them lightly the next game (that Calgary won also).

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Well done spending 45 minutes trying to prove an NHL article wrong Oil Stain. That is quite the joke of a rebuttal, but I'd expect nothing less from a pathetic Oiler fan.

Jeeeezus what's with the vitriol he hasn't killed any puppies or kicked any babies man he's just a fan of the blue team. Relax a little, he can't hurt you

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No one took the Flames lightly last year.

Every single coach, and every single team, came to town and said: we know they are a very hard working team and if we don't match their intensity, they'll embarrass us.

You can play that down as lip service, but every team pre-scouts every other team. There are no surprises anymore.

No one ever takes any teams lightly anymore except maybe bottom 2/3 teams. A 25th place team still wins 35% of their games, it's not a gimme