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Old 08-07-2017, 01:30 PM   #21
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Almost every prospect is a long shot to make the NHL.

Kylington is 10 months older than Fox and already has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt.

Considering his size, Fox is a longer shot than Kylington IMO.

Both have almost unlimited upside.

So for me, it is weird/wrong to have Fox that much higher than Kylington. They should be pretty much side by side.
Fox did something no other defensemen has done since Brian frickin Leetch in college. Am I saying he is the next Brian Leech? Absolutely not... but he has the pedigree now and seems to continue to impress and look elite at every level. Of course he's still a long shot, they are all long shots. Just because you would have Fox and Kylington side by side doesn't make it weird or wrong for someone else to have him 5 spots higher. I would have Fox at 5 and Kylington at 9. But i don't think it's weird or wrong for you to have them 1 spot apart with Kylington higher. I will admit I have limited viewings of both but from what I have seen Fox has more offensive upside and doesn't seem to lose himself as much. Or maybe I see more boneheaded plays by Kylington than he is actually making.

Pretty much all the prospect rankings I've seen has Fox ahead of Kylington which isn't wrong or weird.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:32 PM   #22
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I'm looking forward to seeing Phillips climb the list this season, still super underrated because of his size. If he makes team Canada for the World Juniors his stock will only go up.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:38 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Samonadreau View Post
Fox did something no other defensemen has done since Brian frickin Leetch in college.
I mean, that's awesome, but it's borderline anecdotal. Here's a similar anecdote for Kylington:

Quote:
He became the youngest player in the history of Sweden's SHL to score a goal when he did it in his debut at 16 years, 4 months, and 10 days old.
(Sportsnet)

I hope we are able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of these players beyond their anecdotes.
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #24
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Compared to CP
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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Old 08-07-2017, 01:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I mean, that's awesome, but it's borderline anecdotal. Here's a similar anecdote for Kylington:


(Sportsnet)

I hope we are able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of these players beyond their anecdotes.
C'mon man.

Scoring one goal at a short tourney is in no way comparable to what Fox did over a full season of college.

"Similar anecdote" ??

No, not similar at all.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:12 PM   #26
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Fox did something no other defensemen has done since Brian frickin Leetch in college. Am I saying he is the next Brian Leech? Absolutely not... but he has the pedigree now and seems to continue to impress and look elite at every level. Of course he's still a long shot, they are all long shots. Just because you would have Fox and Kylington side by side doesn't make it weird or wrong for someone else to have him 5 spots higher. I would have Fox at 5 and Kylington at 9. But i don't think it's weird or wrong for you to have them 1 spot apart with Kylington higher. I will admit I have limited viewings of both but from what I have seen Fox has more offensive upside and doesn't seem to lose himself as much. Or maybe I see more boneheaded plays by Kylington than he is actually making.

Pretty much all the prospect rankings I've seen has Fox ahead of Kylington which isn't wrong or weird.
CP had Kylington ahead of Fox.

No other lists are correct.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:14 PM   #27
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Curious question... where does Falkovsky rank if he's still in the system?

I'd fit him in at 18 between Hathaway and Wotherspoon
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:26 PM   #28
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Curious question... where does Falkovsky rank if he's still in the system?

I'd fit him in at 18 between Hathaway and Wotherspoon
Yeah he would have been top 20 for sure.
Also Hickey would have probably been top 10.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:31 PM   #29
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I want to be a Kylington fan, but I'm not sure whether he's just having fun out there or if he has the ability to not make those stupid plays. I honestly haven't seen him enough in regular league play to get a sense of that; I normally see him only during tournaments or development style camps.

So on the premise that I (nor many other posters) really don't know what I'm talking about, I am always hesitant about prospects with poor decision making. Especially when it comes to defencemen. Imagining when/if he makes the Flames, I think he will be the most frustrating player for me to watch. I can't see him being the guy that I look forward to being on the ice, because those stupid plays are so much more damaging than the brilliance. Similar to those later Phaneuf Flames years, where he was always out of position trying to make massive hits.

Of course, this is my personal opinion, but I struggle to rank a prospect very high when I'm fearing seeing him actually play for my team.
I share your concerns exactly. Too many poor decisions that questions what his true hockey IQ is. It was his poor play that cost Stockton the game tying goal in final playoff game. Kylington also singled out for decision making issues with BT in development camp.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:43 PM   #30
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Regardless it is a deep 10, which you have to like.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:56 PM   #31
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C'mon man.

Scoring one goal at a short tourney is in no way comparable to what Fox did over a full season of college.

"Similar anecdote" ??

No, not similar at all.
What you're ignoring is that Kylington doesn't score an SHL goal if he weren't already too good for Swedish Junior leagues as a 16 year old.

Kylington was an elite player in Junior, in fact his numbers were better than Erik Karlsson's at every level if I'm not mistaken.

But that's still anecdotal. Just like Fox isn't the next Leetch, Kylington isn't the next Karlsson.

Like I said, I hope we can assess what these kids can do with more than lofty one-off comparisions (here's another one for Fox, though, if you love anecdotes - Fox and Werenski are the only PPG freshmen defensemen in the last three decades)

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This. Fans are incredibly biased towards stats and relative play to their peers in whatever level of hockey a prospect is playing.
Here's another bias... simplicity.

People love vanilla prospects / NHLers who don't screw up, over flash even if the endgame to the flash is more successful in driving goal differentials.
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 08-07-2017 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:36 PM   #32
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(here's another one for Fox, though, if you love anecdotes - Fox and Werenski are the only PPG freshmen defensemen in the last three decades)
False.

Werenski was a sophomore in his PPG season :P

though he was still a u19 player since his draft year was his freshman year
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:48 PM   #33
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I am really liking Fox more and more. I still think he needs to improve his skating in order to not be a liability on defence, but he has shown a lot of progression. I would vote him higher today than I would have when we started doing the prospect rankings this off-season.

However, for me, Kylington is still the offensive dynamo. A kid who is playing in the AHL and plays mistake-free defensively for a few games before something he tries backfires a bit isn't bad. I think he has limited his mistakes every season, and is showing real progression down there. Burke has praised the kid and has stated on a couple of occasions that Kylington will be an NHL'er.

Offensive D-men will give you moments of fits at times. Watch Erik Karlsson enough, and you see that at times. It sucks, but it is all about having that ability to pick your spots. Tied game? Up by a goal? Down by a goal? What are the chances of creating offence vs creating a chance against?

The kid is YOUNG, and has been playing against men for a while now. There is no better skater in the organization than he is, including Brodie I think.

Fox vs Kylington is such an interesting comparison, and they are SOOO DIFFERENT on the ice. I would say Kylington creates a heck of a lot more, and I think he has a way nicer 'bomb' of a shot (which I didn't expect for his size). Fox has a lethal wrister, and seems to 'control' the offence more like a true PPQB. They are really interesting to watch and compare from that facet.

I think Kylington is going to be that serious threat that teams have to adjust to on the ice. I rarely see a defencemen be able to create something out of nothing. His mistakes are becoming so over-blown now. If you watch him, he has games of essentially mistake-free play. I think he is progressing in that department, and I actually expect Kylington to get a long look this season up in the NHL.

Valimaki I still have as the Flames' best defensive prospect. Why? I stated above that Fox is more of a controller on the PP. Valimaki is a controller EV, PP and PK. He is good everywhere.

Why was Pronger so effective back in the day? Because he controlled the ice like no one else. Why is Doughty the best defencemen in the NHL right now? Because he controls the ice better than most defencemen. Same thing with Giordano. Giordano when he is out there really controls what is happening more than any other defencemen for Calgary. Hamilton may be more offensive, Brodie may be a way better skater, but Giordano just controls everything with his reads and positioning. That's Valimaki for me, and the more I think about it after seeing him, the more I feel that the Giordano comparison is so apt.

With this all being said, I actually like the bad stuff that has been said about Kylington. I think he will eventually catch wind of this growing sentiment with his game, and use it to further lock down his defensive zone play and concentrate more on picking his spots.

Treliving doesn't want to stifle him, however. You have to accept the good with the bad sometimes, but the hope is that with some coaching and experience, he learns to just pick his spots better and limit his turnovers. He is as high of an offensive ceiling as you ever see on a defencemen however, and people are going to start seeing it show. His defensive lapses - while there - are so overblown now. He has shown a tonne of progression there.
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:46 AM   #34
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People love vanilla prospects / NHLers who don't screw up, over flash even if the endgame to the flash is more successful in driving goal differentials.
I don't think Tyler Wotherspoon would agree with you !!
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:52 AM   #35
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Curious question... where does Falkovsky rank if he's still in the system?

I'd fit him in at 18 between Hathaway and Wotherspoon


Based on what, exactly?

The Flames didn't even deem him worthy of an NHL two-way contract, but for some reason you think he'd be a top 20 prospect? I'm genuinely curious as to why.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:39 AM   #36
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Here's another bias... simplicity.

People love vanilla prospects / NHLers who don't screw up, over flash even if the endgame to the flash is more successful in driving goal differentials.
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I don't think Tyler Wotherspoon would agree with you !!
Yeah, in general on this site my sense is that plenty of posters prefer flashier players to those who just get the job done.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:02 PM   #37
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I have Rasmus and Valimaki as the top two D prospects. Both seem to be decent bets to be NHL players. Rasmus just needs to work on conditioning like Ferland at the same age. Valimaki seems to have as few holes in his game as any prospect I imagine. Closest thing to a lock to make the NHL that you can find mid-first round.


But as for the list I think it is pretty good and I like the reasoning he gives. Had to laugh at "Brad Marchand potential" though.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:06 PM   #38
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Yeah, in general on this site my sense is that plenty of posters prefer flashier players to those who just get the job done.
As far as prospects go I can see why. It's easier to acquire guys who "get the job done" through trades or free agency.


Never understood using high picks to take guys like Kanzing, Sielofff, Wotherspoon etc. prefer to see those picks used on guys lik Andersson, Kylington, Fox who have unreal skill levels but other issues in their game
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:36 PM   #39
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As far as prospects go I can see why. It's easier to acquire guys who "get the job done" through trades or free agency.


Never understood using high picks to take guys like Kanzing, Sielofff, Wotherspoon etc. prefer to see those picks used on guys lik Andersson, Kylington, Fox who have unreal skill levels but other issues in their game
They didn't have to use a high pick on those three latter guys, did they? In any event, I wouldn't characterize Andersson as a flashy player. His drop in the rankings was due to fitness concerns, mostly.

As for the first three, Kanzig was a third round pick, so I'm not sure why you include him. And Wotherspoon was a late second rounder. Sieloff was a mid second round pick, so the highest of the bunch but still not a "high pick". And I can't see any flashy player over whom he was taken, can you?

I wasn't talking about using picks, but as far as that goes, I wouldn't characterize Monahan or Tkachuk as flashy. But I sure won't argue about them getting picked over a flashier/higher risk player. And they picked up their flashiest player with an extremely late pick.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:44 PM   #40
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nevermind.
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