Intellectual Honesty...

[Karl Racki]

After 10 games:

Sutter Era -
09/10 - 7-2-1 15pts
10/11 - 6-4-0 12 pts
11/12 - 4-5-1 9 pts

Hartley Era -
12/13 - 3-4-3 9 pts

In other words, this year represents the Flames worst start in four years, worse than any during the Sutter era. I didn't bother to go back further (to when they were actually a pretty good team for a few years).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying watching them play this year more than in recent memory (the new additions and emphasis on creativity is fun, if not successful), and I know we have some significant injury concerns, but we all know what excuses are for.

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot, let alone contend for a cup. Not with Sutter gone, not with all the new additions this year, not with the emphasis on creativity, not with the same old aging core/leadership group. I get that the goal is to remain competitive every year, but, ummm, they're not. So when does Feaster's "intellectual honesty" thing actually kick in?

[BigFlameDog]

New coaching staff, a bunch of new players, new system and philosophy, no training camp, some timely injuries etc., etc.

I am not saying these guys are great, I'm just saying it is apples and oranges. This has nothing to do with "intellectual honesty". Feaster is doing what he said he would do for the most part, jury is still out and I don't think he is done yet.

[COGENT]

I'm not saying you're wrong but comparing this year to the past 3 isn't totally fair when considering it started 3 months later than usual with barely any training camp. Not an excuse, just something to consider when comparing.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by COGENT

I'm not saying you're wrong but comparing this year to the past 3 isn't totally fair when considering it started 3 months later than usual with barely any training camp. Not an excuse, just something to consider when comparing.

Every other team is faced with this same situation

[GreenLantern]

A lot of unfortunate circumstances this season. It doesn't lessen the sting of a horrible start but it does help me understand it.

Few bright spots too though, for instance Backlunds play pre injury was just amazing, Cervenka seems to be getting more comfortable. Bouwmeester has played for the most part the way we always thought he would and Hudler has been a god send.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Karl Racki

After 10 games:

Sutter Era -
09/10 - 7-2-1 15pts
10/11 - 6-4-0 12 pts
11/12 - 4-5-1 9 pts

Hartley Era -
12/13 - 3-4-3 9 pts

In other words, this year represents the Flames worst start in four years, worse than any during the Sutter era. I didn't bother to go back further (to when they were actually a pretty good team for a few years).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying watching them play this year more than in recent memory (the new additions and emphasis on creativity is fun, if not successful), and I know we have some significant injury concerns, but we all know what excuses are for.

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot, let alone contend for a cup. Not with Sutter gone, not with all the new additions this year, not with the emphasis on creativity, not with the same old aging core/leadership group. I get that the goal is to remain competitive every year, but, ummm, they're not. So when does Feaster's "intellectual honesty" thing actually kick in?

We've had awful goaltending in several games.

Also, so what if a few Suttre teams got off to a fast start? The 09/10 team did not maintain anywhere close to that pace. It's almost as if you're using a small sample size to make a much larger assertion.

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Every other team is faced with this same situation

A team with a new coach, new players and a new system of play it at a greater disadvantage than teams with more continuity.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by Karl Racki

Fact is, Flames do not have the pieces to compete for a playoff spot,

Think I'll reserve judgement and see how the next 10 games go before stating any "facts" such as this.

This is a new team, new coach, new system. They have looked better at times than they have at any time in the last three years.

[SofaProfessor]

I would like him to give it another ten games before he does anything too drastic. See what happens not only with this team but others in the league. San Jose, after their amazing start, has started to cool off a lot. Even if he wanted to blow it all up right now, do you think he could? You're much more likely to get a better value for guys like Iginla closer to the deadline when teams are looking at long playoff pushes and know they need a strong veteran forward or whatever. I know we all have our fingers on the panic button and many of us have already pressed it back in game 2 but we need to chill out, see what happens over the next few weeks and be patient. Otherwise we end up shipping out Iggy for another third liner than can coast around with all of the other third liners we have and the team hasn't really changed at all.

[COGENT]

Originally Posted by East Coast Flame

Every other team is faced with this same situation

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

[neo45]

Sutter took a team that was projected to make the playoffs and failed three years in a row. Hartley is working with a worse team that most experts had in the 12th - 15th range. That is the big difference right there, Hartley is exceeding or at least meeting expectations while Sutter repeatedly failed


Also, the games are twice as good under Hartley. That counts for a lot in my books

[Psytic]

Now that we know Kipper is gone for two weeks I think we could be in for a ride.

[89revival]

New coach, new system blah blah blah, same results....they're not good enough! Wake up! They'll continue to come up with some good efforts and win some games but in the end they'll miss the playoffs and then what? We all get a little excited when they put up an effort like they did in Detroit, but they never keep up that effort for the next 3-5 games. Sure injuries are hurting them, no doubt, but it's also the same guys that are getting hurt with regularity (minus Kipper).....It's too bad that Backlund is turning out to be made of glass cause he's a good player. Cammalari has been quite injury prone in recent years too.....rebuild the team.

They are what they are, average. Anyone expecting much more is kidding themselves on.

[moon]

Originally Posted by COGENT

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

San Jose has been a top 10 team (usually top 3) team in the league for the past 5-7 years. Why wouldn't they be expected to be good this year?

Outside of a few oddities (LA, TO, Mon) the standings look fairly similar to what many would have thought in terms of who is in and who is out right now.

And there is always a few teams that get off to hot starts/slow starts lock out or not.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by COGENT

You're right and it has caused mass oddness IMO. Who would have thought that San Jose would be this good? I'm not using it as an excuse for the Flames, I'm just saying comparing this start to a 'normal" start isn't completely fair.

Teams that came back mostly intact are the ones running out of the gate....not much of a mystery IMO.

[moon]

Originally Posted by neo45

Sutter took a team that was projected to make the playoffs and failed three years in a row. Hartley is working with a worse team that most experts had in the 12th - 15th range. That is the big difference right there, Hartley is exceeding or at least meeting expectations while Sutter repeatedly failed


Also, the games are twice as good under Hartley. That counts for a lot in my books

Last season I don't think many people (outside of Flames fans) picked the Flames to make the play-offs and even the year before I think a lot of people were predicting a 6-10 finish for the Flames.

[Komskies]

Originally Posted by blankall

We've had awful goaltending in several games.

Also, so what if a few Suttre teams got off to a fast start? The 09/10 team did not maintain anywhere close to that pace. It's almost as if you're using a small sample size to make a much larger assertion.

The 09/10 team did maintain that pace throughout November. Here's a thread I started on December 1, 2009

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=83282

[Karl Racki]

I really didn't intend for this to be a Sutter / Hartley thing. Like I said, I am having a lot of fun watching them play this year, even if the results aren't there. Much more than at pretty much any point in the past few years. Also as I said, no doubt we are being hit disproportionately hard by injuries. I'm actually finding myself do the same thing that a lot of you seem to be doing, which is tell myself that a good 10-game stretch is all we need and we're right back in it. Totally true. But in one way or another we've been saying that for at least 3 years now. And we always fall short.

[North East Goon]

This team is inconsistent because it lacks top-end talent who can bring it every night. The best way to acquire top end talent is through the draft. This organization refuses to stock pile picks.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by moon

Last season I don't think many people (outside of Flames fans) picked the Flames to make the play-offs and even the year before I think a lot of people were predicting a 6-10 finish for the Flames.

I meant when he inherited the team, the Flames were pretty much universally projected as a playoff team. The second season it was about 50/50 and the third season most people had them in 8/9/10

He still failed all three years though