Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Maybe but if the prosecutor backs down on the charge in a plea bargin, the boys family and supporters will probably go ape.

The young, dead black man's family will go ape?. Poor choice of words Captain?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Gun laws help, but its social conditions more than anything that drive crime in America. Only East Van can compare to places like Baltimore and Detroit and Chicago.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Gun laws help, but its social conditions more than anything that drive crime in America. Only East Van can compare to places like Baltimore and Detroit and Chicago.

And yet I have never felt any fear living in East Van, if I see something untoward happening in my neighbourhood (which is pretty regular to be frank) I will go out and confront whatever crack head or car thief without having to worry about being shot.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sure do, a grand total of 5 over the last two years for which data is available.

http://www.mta.info/mta/compliance/p...0Narrative.pdf

Can we just get an admission that you were once again talking out of your ass when you made your earlier claim?

No.....

"As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse."

That is not just New York city, but the whole nation.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If guns kept people safe the US would be the safest place in the world, it isn't, they don't.

The reality is a gun is a crappy self defense tool, it is a really good assualt tool it therefore lends itself to being used more effectively by thugs not homeowners, most times people are attacked they can't find their gun in time or they are to scared to use it effectively or just plain don't know what is happening until it is to late.
The thug, on the other hand, has the advantage, he is in charge with the gun drawn and loaded and in his hand.
The other reality is most murders are not commited by 'thugs' but by boyfriends or husbands shooting other family members or aquaintences, guns to nothing to stop this but do make these disgruntled pricks far more deadly.

What a poor collection of assumptions...
-they can't find their gun?
-they are too scared to use it?

LOL......okay, these things might be the case in a small percentage of cases.

Why does a gun make for a crappy defense tool?
What would work better if an armed intruder entered your home?.....a bat? an alarm system? a pot of scolding hot water? your womans' oversized purse?

You really think an intruder has the advantage when entering a strangers home? The unfamiliarity of the property makes it more risky for the intruder, especially if the home owner is present and armed.

2.5 million gun defense/year according to the stats.........and I have to wonder how many brandishings go unreported? It's not like a car jacker/robber will report a brandishing considering they were trying to commit a crime.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

What a poor collection of assumptions...
-they can't find their gun?
-they are too scared to use it?

LOL......okay, these things might be the case in a small percentage of cases.

Why does a gun make for a crappy defense tool?
What would work better if an armed intruder entered your home?.....a bat? an alarm system? a pot of scolding hot water? your womans' oversized purse?

You really think an intruder has the advantage when entering a strangers home? The unfamiliarity of the property makes it more risky for the intruder, especially if the home owner is present and armed.

2.5 million gun defense/year according to the stats.........and I have to wonder how many brandishings go unreported? It's not like a car jacker/robber will report a brandishing considering they were trying to commit a crime.

Because it has no degree of apllication, it requires an immediate readyness to apply lethal force and you have to have the gun in your hand and be aware of what is going on, generally muggers thugs and drunken husbands don't give you that advantage.

Case in point the Fort Hood massacre, 13 dead 31 wounded, I would imagine every single victim had a gun, many of them on their person, all were well trained and well able to defend themselves, what they didn't have was forewarning. If someone is trying to shoot you, a burgler or disgruntled collegue or the like they are walking around with a gun in their hand, even if you have a gun on you, you are still effed in that situation, as the chances are you won't know what is happening or even if you do know someone is shooting people you don't know who it is, you won't be expecting that someone is trying to kill you, you will only realize this when the shooter opens up your office door and puts 3 or 4 rounds into you.

Having a gun gives you no advantage what so ever against someone else with a gun, you may be on even terms, but chances are if they are a better shot or have their gun out or has a bullet proof vest or is behind you or just knows what is going on when you don't then you're dead.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Let me ask you this, If your neighborhood has had a few break ins and a recent rash of crime do you think that you would be suspicious of someone walking around in your neighborhood that you don't know?

Yep. But I would call the police and let them handle it. I wouldn't go chasing around some questionable person putting my life on the line to maybe be a hero. That's what happened Zimmerman wanted to be a hero (tried and failed to become a cop) and this was his moment.

Trayvon makes it home if Zimmerman calls the police and carries on his way or at the very least stays in his vehicle. Even if Trayvon did attack him he was invoking his right to stand his ground to a stanger who had a weapon. Zimmmerman did all this to himself and I hope he pays for it by going to jail.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

What a poor collection of assumptions...
-they can't find their gun?
-they are too scared to use it?

LOL......okay, these things might be the case in a small percentage of cases.

Why does a gun make for a crappy defense tool?
What would work better if an armed intruder entered your home?.....a bat? an alarm system? a pot of scolding hot water? your womans' oversized purse?

You really think an intruder has the advantage when entering a strangers home? The unfamiliarity of the property makes it more risky for the intruder, especially if the home owner is present and armed.

2.5 million gun defense/year according to the stats.........and I have to wonder how many brandishings go unreported? It's not like a car jacker/robber will report a brandishing considering they were trying to commit a crime.

Shouting out that you've called the police and they are on their way, that will clear out a burgler in seconds, burglers are generally not looking to kill any one they want money and they want to get away free, why so many americans get killed is because the shear proponderance of guns in every house makes it a kill or be killed situation for the burgler if he is disturbed down there, here they just run away.

I run a foster home, I take serious gang bangers into my house, all of them are criminals and have access to guns, none of them use them or take them out with them as they know full well they don't need them, I would have been shot dead doing my job in the US long ago, I've walked into crack shacks and grow ops looking for my kids but they know I am not armed so no one bothers me, in the US it would be assumed I had a gun and so shoot first sort it out later would be the rule.

To be quite frank even in the US you are probably safer being robbed without a gun than having one, if you don't have a gun you lose your wallet but chances are thats all.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think I've been pretty clear that having a bunch of frightened poorly trained people running around in their house or in the streets carrying a fire arm is stupid.

I don't care how well trained you think you are in terms of gun safety, if someone is rumbling around in your house in the middle of the night and you don't know who it is there are 4 possibilities and three end in death or grievous injury.

I would really like to see handguns and public carrying permits taken away from normal civilians. I don't have a problem with hunting rifles, but I do have problems with under trained closet rambo's with guns in their house.

If the American's created strict control on handguns then they could focus on cleaning up on illegal gun trade.

I also think that the punishment for gun crimes should be an automatic life sentence with no parole. I think you need a strong deterrent to this problem.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

No.....

"As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse."

That is not just New York city, but the whole nation.

And that has what to do with your asinine statement about women being raped on subways?

Admit it, you went with your usual baseless hyperbole approach once again

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think I've been pretty clear that having a bunch of frightened poorly trained people running around in their house or in the streets carrying a fire arm is stupid.

I don't care how well trained you think you are in terms of gun safety, if someone is rumbling around in your house in the middle of the night and you don't know who it is there are 4 possibilities and three end in death or grievous injury.

I would really like to see handguns and public carrying permits taken away from normal civilians. I don't have a problem with hunting rifles, but I do have problems with under trained closet rambo's with guns in their house.

If the American's created strict control on handguns then they could focus on cleaning up on illegal gun trade.

I also think that the punishment for gun crimes should be an automatic life sentence with no parole. I think you need a strong deterrent to this problem.

Murder itself brings a strict sentence and often the death penalty. That still doesn't deter too much. If a gang member wants someone dead, they will get them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Murder itself brings a strict sentence and often the death penalty. That still doesn't deter too much. If a gang member wants someone dead, they will get them.

I'm even talking crimes that don't involve death. You stick up a liquor store and threaten someone with a gun . . .bye bye

You wound someone but don't kill him when you discharge your gun bye bye.

You cross a line when you point a gun at someone.

[afc wimbledon]

If the US banned guns it would take a few years but they could take almost all of them out of circulation fairly quickly, what guns remained would become very expensive in a hurry which in itself reduces crime because idiot teenagers and drunken trailor trash couldn't afford them.

[JohnnyB]

You know, Shanghai has around 22 million people and it's among the safest feeling cities I've ever been to. Nobody here has guns except the police and military. I've been all over this city at all kinds of different hours and I never feel in danger, though I would if I thought that there were loads of guns about in random people's hands.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Chris Rock had it right, make bullets $100 each. No more innocent bystanders.

[Senator Clay Davis]

To be fair Chris wanted bullets at $5,000 a bullet.

"Damn he must have done something wrong, they put $50,000 worth of bullets in the guy!"

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If the US banned guns it would take a few years but they could take almost all of them out of circulation fairly quickly, what guns remained would become very expensive in a hurry which in itself reduces crime because idiot teenagers and drunken trailor trash couldn't afford them.

I'm not advocating for guns, but I find your post to be highly unrealistic. The number of gun owners in the states is staggering. Assuming the government could clear the constitutional hurdles and actually ban guns. The black market for guns would keep them in circulation indefinitely.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think I've been pretty clear that having a bunch of frightened poorly trained people running around in their house or in the streets carrying a fire arm is stupid.

I don't care how well trained you think you are in terms of gun safety, if someone is rumbling around in your house in the middle of the night and you don't know who it is there are 4 possibilities and three end in death or grievous injury.

I would really like to see handguns and public carrying permits taken away from normal civilians. I don't have a problem with hunting rifles, but I do have problems with under trained closet rambo's with guns in their house.

If the American's created strict control on handguns then they could focus on cleaning up on illegal gun trade.

I also think that the punishment for gun crimes should be an automatic life sentence with no parole. I think you need a strong deterrent to this problem.

One of these pro gun posters used a theatre killing of unarmed people as an example of the need for people to carry guns.
Can you imagine if somebody shot somebody in a dark theatre and everybody else had a gun.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Because it has no degree of apllication, it requires an immediate readyness to apply lethal force and you have to have the gun in your hand and be aware of what is going on, generally muggers thugs and drunken husbands don't give you that advantage.

Case in point the Fort Hood massacre, 13 dead 31 wounded, I would imagine every single victim had a gun, many of them on their person, all were well trained and well able to defend themselves, what they didn't have was forewarning. If someone is trying to shoot you, a burgler or disgruntled collegue or the like they are walking around with a gun in their hand, even if you have a gun on you, you are still effed in that situation, as the chances are you won't know what is happening or even if you do know someone is shooting people you don't know who it is, you won't be expecting that someone is trying to kill you, you will only realize this when the shooter opens up your office door and puts 3 or 4 rounds into you.

Having a gun gives you no advantage what so ever against someone else with a gun, you may be on even terms, but chances are if they are a better shot or have their gun out or has a bullet proof vest or is behind you or just knows what is going on when you don't then you're dead.

A good example is those 4 cops getting gunned down in a donut shop near Seattle a couple of years ago.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I'm not advocating for guns, but I find your post to be highly unrealistic. The number of gun owners in the states is staggering. Assuming the government could clear the constitutional hurdles and actually ban guns. The black market for guns would keep them in circulation indefinitely.

I agree, I think we're past the point of simply banning guns (not that there's anyway it could be done politically or legally). I do think that something lik Captain's plan of heavily punish any gun crime would be effective, but then we open the door to mass incarceration, which is already a problem in the US.

There's already a massive problem, the real question is how do we fix it without simply shifting it to another area. I don't know that I have an answer, but I do know that more guns isn't it.