This is the year for the Flames to prove they can graduate prospects from the AHL

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I find it interesting that you're a proponent of the 'sink or swim' school of thought given Edmonton's experience with draft picks like Eberle, Hall, Yakupov and to a lesser extent Nugent-Hopkins?

Looking back, do you think the Oilers handled the development of these players properly or did their lack of success (the player's) suggest they were lacking in certain qualities - as your last paragraph suggests.

But I'm not a proponent of sink or swim. I wrote this in the post you just quoted: Now if I were a GM, I'd probably be from the Poile/Burke school that has pretty much every prospect play at least half a season in the AHL. It's better to be safe, than to end up with a guy on the main roster that isn't helping the team

I just don't think that development is something that an organization has as much control over as some people think it does.

Eberle for instance is a pretty great pick at 22 overall. Fans just pick apart his flaws because he played in a Canadian city and was a good player on a bad team. Kind of like Kessel in Toronto. Same can be said for Hall. RNH and Yakupov are poor first overalls. If you look at the rest of their drafts its not like 2-3 superstars were taken behind them however. Is their development due to the org or just a lack of talent?

But lets take it away from Edmonton as I think there is going to be some bias when looking at that org. Lets look at a model NHL organization:

2003-Breat Seabrook 13th overall. He's pretty good I guess.
2004-Cam Barker 3rd overall. Bust
2005-Jack Skille 7th overall. Bust.
2006-Jonathon Toews 3rd overall. HOF bound.
2007-Patrick Kane 1st overall. Ditto
2008-Kyle Beach 11th overall. Bust

This model organization picked three busts mixed in with 3 stars, all with pretty high picks. No one talks about how Chicago blew the development of Cam Barker and Jack Skille though.

No, everyone raves about how great their system is that Chicago managed to find an Andrew Shaw to supplement their core.

To me, it seems like development is kind of a narrative, where good teams have every success lauded more so than the poor teams.

Does anyone dump on the Hawks because they failed to grind Nick Leddy into a well rounded, workhorse D-man? Nope. He had some pretty wobbly moments in the playoffs.

Now Eberle is a similar player in a different position. If he had been drafted by the Blackhawks, I think he'd probably be the same player, but the Blackhawks would have used him until they had to pay him and then dumped him for picks. He'd be a feather in the Hawks development cap despite likely having the same shortcomings as he does now.


I'm not saying player development is useless, but can you or anyone else tell me what NHL organizations do differently from each other when it comes to development? They all appear to be doing the exact same things to me. Development camps, training camps, teaching about nutrition and gym habits, etc.

With college players which make up an increasing amount of NHLers, they usually don't even attend development camps. A lot of them play college, spend half a season in the AHL, and then jump into the NHL. How much of their development can the org that drafted them really take credit for in these cases? They basically called their name on draft day and then waited...

Seems like the biggest control teams have, or at least the control most talked about when it comes to development is the time at which a player makes the NHL.

Is putting a player into the NHL a year too early, or a year too late harmful for their development to the point where it could define their career as a hockey player?

It's really impossible to know because there are so many variables. I'm leaning towards no though. I think its fair to give the player the lion's share of the credit for success or failure.

If I was an NHL GM and I had to choose between splitting resources between drafting and development. I think I'd put most of my resources into drafting.
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[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Is putting a player into the NHL a year too early, or a year too late harmful for their development to the point where it could define their career as a hockey player?

A year too early? Hell yeah. A year too late? Can't think of any examples and how would we know?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't think Hall, Yakupov, RNH etc., were 'rushed'. I don't think that is the development problem with these kids. I mean, what 1st overall doesn't make the NHL in his first year?

The problem was that these kids were given too much responsibility too soon. They were not sheltered enough with a good veteran presence, and were placed right away into top 6 (or top-line) roles.

I like what Calgary did with Monahan and Gaudreau. Like what Calgary is doing with Bennett. That's how you bring prospects into the NHL.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't think Hall, Yakupov, RNH etc., were 'rushed'. I don't think that is the development problem with these kids. I mean, what 1st overall doesn't make the NHL in his first year?

The problem was that these kids were given too much responsibility too soon. They were not sheltered enough with a good veteran presence, and were placed right away into top 6 (or top-line) roles.

I like what Calgary did with Monahan and Gaudreau. Like what Calgary is doing with Bennett. That's how you bring prospects into the NHL.

Pretty much the definition of not being developed properly.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't think Hall, Yakupov, RNH etc., were 'rushed'. I don't think that is the development problem with these kids. I mean, what 1st overall doesn't make the NHL in his first year?

The problem was that these kids were given too much responsibility too soon. They were not sheltered enough with a good veteran presence, and were placed right away into top 6 (or top-line) roles.

I like what Calgary did with Monahan and Gaudreau. Like what Calgary is doing with Bennett. That's how you bring prospects into the NHL.

They were rushed in because they didn't have a good veteran presence.

[RyZ]

some interesting charts this past AHL season on a few Flames hopefuls.

Looks like Jankowski is ready for a legit shot in the NHL. He was one of the very best players in the AHL last season.

[RedHawk12]

Hey guys, long time CP lurker, finally decided to get an account and join the conversation. Thanks OP for opening the debate, I think it's a really interesting point of discussion.

I feel like many of us fans are still scarred from the Sutter era, when there probably was a tendency to find veteran fill-ins in an attempt to make the playoffs every year while we still had Iggy and Kipper in their prime. I don't think this has been the case at all under Tre & co.

Ultimately, I think the question comes down to: "can the Flames draft and develop their own players who can eventually make an impact on our main roster". Under Feaster and Treliving, I believe the answer is yes.

Here's just an estimate of our opening day roster. Bolded are players that came up through the Flames system (drafted and/or developed).

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik
Versteeg - Bennett - Brouwer
??? - Stajan - Lazar

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Hamonic
??? - Stone

Smith
Lack

There are 6/12 players out of our forward group that are locally drafted and developed. Very likely 7 if that last spot is taken by a guy like Jankowski. On defense, it's 2/6. 3 if Kulak makes the team. That's HALF of our skaters.

Compare with Pittsburgh's roster the night they won the cup:

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Wilson - Malkin - Kessel
Rust - Bonino - Rowney
Kunitz - Cullen - Hornqvist

Dumoulin - Hainsey
Maata - Daley
Cole - Schultz

Murray
Fleury

7/12 forwards, 2/6 defensemen and 2/2 goalies. People seem to rave about how Pittsburgh is able to develop their depth internally to complement Crosby and Malkin, and they have pretty much the same number of internally developed skaters as we do. The only difference is in net, and I think that's not for a lack of opportunity given to our prospects. I think guys like Ortio were given an opportunity to make an impact in the NHL, but failed to do so. Guys like Krahn, Keetley and Irving were given every opportunity to make their name in the AHL and failed to do so. We just haven't had a guy like Murray come through our system. It might have to do with some poor drafting, but nothing to do with giving prospects opportunities. Since then, our drafting in net has looked a bit better and there's no indication that Parsons or Gilles won't be given an opportunity to take over the net. In fact, I think Tre has hinted that they will eventually.

The other area people talk about is on D. Kulak and TSpoon aren't given enough opportunities etc. Well I think that's because they simply aren't good enough (yet) to make an impact on our main roster. When Tre took over, our D cupboard was absolutely bare (even with Kulak and Tspoon included). That's why he had to go out and get Hamilton, and Hamonic this year, in the first place. D take longer to develop; now that we finally have some blue chip D prospects, I fully expect them to be given an opportunity to make the roster in the next 2-3 years.

[sureLoss]

FWIW CTV's Glen Campbell says it is obvious that Jankowski added a lot of muscle this summer:

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clip...ylistPageNum=1

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

FWIW CTV's Glen Campbell says it is obvious that Jankowski added a lot of muscle this summer:

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clip...ylistPageNum=1

Hard not to be excited about some legitimate training camp battles this year with this guy at top of the list.. Will be interesting to see if vets still get signed.

[Fire]

Would be really disappointed if Jankowski is not on the opening day roster. I would put him with Backlund so he can learn a 2-way game from the best. Move Tkachuk with Bennett.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Hard not to be excited about some legitimate training camp battles this year with this guy at top of the list.. Will be interesting to see if vets still get signed.

Yeah I'm pretty intrigued to see the guys that should push for spots ... Jankowski, Kulak, Wotherspoon

But also the guys that are getting close but likely not quite there ... Andersson, Kylington, Gillies

And then again the super intriguing guys that really shouldn't have a shot at all in Valimaki and Parsons.

Fun camp ahead.

Sort of crossing my fingers that they don't load up on PTOs before camp.

[Charsiu]

Originally Posted by Fire

Would be really disappointed if Jankowski is not on the opening day roster. I would put him with Backlund so he can learn a 2-way game from the best. Move Tkachuk with Bennett.

I would be ecstatic if they moved some talent alongside Bennett. If Jankowski was to find success with Backlund and Frolik, earn a roster spot, and thus open up a spot for Tkachuk beside Bennett, I could imagine Bennett hitting 20 goals.
That's not too much to hope for is it?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't think Hall, Yakupov, RNH etc., were 'rushed'. I don't think that is the development problem with these kids. I mean, what 1st overall doesn't make the NHL in his first year?

The problem was that these kids were given too much responsibility too soon. They were not sheltered enough with a good veteran presence, and were placed right away into top 6 (or top-line) roles.

I like what Calgary did with Monahan and Gaudreau. Like what Calgary is doing with Bennett. That's how you bring prospects into the NHL.

I don't think they were neccessarily rushed, I think they had large flaws in their game that probably couldn't be fixed.

RNH is a small weakling that couldn't lift a can of condensed milk without a crane. He also has the aggression of that teddy bear from the fabric softener ads.

Yakopov was dumb as a brink, he looked good in juniors because of his size and shot. But those physical skills couldn't overcome the fact that he's incapable of thinking the game at speed.

Hall was a one trick pony in Edmonton, and his character really left a lot to be desired. Maybe he could be fixed, but he was one of the players that tuned out the rotating carousal of coaches at his earliest convenience.

We make jokes that the Oilers biggest scouting asset was the draft issue of the hockey news, that or a youtube video of some prospect bouncing a puck on his stick during a shootout.

[marchmallow]

Originally Posted by Charsiu

I would be ecstatic if they moved some talent alongside Bennett. If Jankowski was to find success with Backlund and Frolik, earn a roster spot, and thus open up a spot for Tkachuk beside Bennett, I could imagine Bennett hitting 20 goals.
That's not too much to hope for is it?

I don't think that's too much to hope for at all. Bennett clearly has the talent to put up those points, but with 3rd line players and minutes I don't think he will develop into the player we are hoping for, especially since he is a player that seems to be very affected by his confidence level. The Flames need to find a way to give him better linemates and more game time this year. At the very least, put the guy on the powerplay.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

FWIW CTV's Glen Campbell says it is obvious that Jankowski added a lot of muscle this summer:

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clip...ylistPageNum=1

In that video he does look like Joel Otto in his gear.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In that video he does look like Joel Otto in his gear.

Don't tease like that

But if Janko can eventually become Otto 2.0 (or a "Kesler-lite" in terms of D ability -- defense, not d0uchebag), he and Backlund would be a compelling matchup for McDavid/Draisaitl.

[Vansmack]

I have high hopes for Janko and Kulak this year. It might just be me, but I haven't seen much from Wotherspoon that leads me to believe he will ever make it, I hope he proves me wrong though.

[Toonage]

I just can't see Jankowski on anyone's wing this year. All he's played is centre in the AHL and his brief NHL time (honestly unsure how much if any wing he played in college) and they've never given him a look at any other position.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sort of crossing my fingers that they don't load up on PTOs before camp.

I don't mind PTOs. It's the trading for or signing the Gazdics, Bartkowskis, Nick Grossmans, and Mark Smiths of the world that bother me. It's easy to cut a PTO, it's way less easy to press-box or send to the AHL vets getting paid actual dollars.

[Fire]

#NoToPTOs