[Signing] Flames sign Deryk Engelland (3yrs, $2.9M AAV)

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

By your logic the Flames should recall Setoguchi for chemistry purposes. The Flames are only playing .500 since they sent Setoguchi down, I can only imagine the loss of chemistry provided by Setoguchi is one of the factors.

Except it's not my logic it's the logic of the GM and the coach, both of whom I think know more than any of us on here. The team also has an abundance of forwards pushing for spots. It does not have this luxury on defense. Also Engelland was brought in specifically for character and toughness, Setoguchi was not.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Hackey

That's the point. Posters are trying to explain that certain players bring elements to a team that can't be measured by statistics. Team chemistry being one of them.

That's fine, but when you can't tangibly prove it exists despite overwhelming evidence the player doesn't help the team, don't be surprised people call it magical

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That's fine, but when you can't tangibly prove it exists despite overwhelming evidence the player doesn't help the team, don't be surprised people call it magical

If it didn't exist I don't think GMS would sign guys to fill these types of roles. I trust Treliving and a lifetime of hockey experience and a decade of NHL management experience more than the posters here trying to downplay it's importance.

If you've ever had a group project in school or a project at work or gone a trip with friends there are certain people who drastically change the dynamic of that group. I don't see why a hockey dressing room would be any different.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I would rather have a contract like Weber than Engelland.

+1 for the attempt at defending them, but man, compare apples to apples.

So you use the best defenseman in the NHL and compare him to Engelland? Great counter.

I'm not saying I love the contracts, but we are complaining about contracts that aren't very long.

[Hackey]

Exactly. The deals you mentioned were long term which hinder a team a lot more. Short term deals for one of the lowest cap spending teams isn't really a concern. The contracts will either expire or should be easy to move if the player only has a year or two left. Not to mention the dollar amounts aren't huge either. Can't see a situation where these deals really hurt the team.

[BigRed]

As I think tranny said, Engelland isn't here to round out a championship d-core, he's here to buy time for some younger guys so they don't have to be rushed into a role they can't handle.

I'm totally unimpressed by Engelland, but I get it; as soon a better option emerges that doesn't mess up a young player's development, he'll go.

But I guess he'll have to be bought out because the contract is poor value. He's only getting paid like that because we need to get to the floor.

[jayswin]

Everyone's being purposely extreme and obtuse!!!!!

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That's fine, but when you can't tangibly prove it exists despite overwhelming evidence the player doesn't help the team, don't be surprised people call it magical

Magical was a silly way to describe team chemistry factor in a player. It isn't magical it's just undefinable from outside the locker room.

Undefinable is okay and allows the debate to move on, while magical is a purposely snippy word that attempts to belittle the opposition in this argument.

He doesn't know and you don't know. Maybe Engelland is regarded as a really strong leader and a guy who pushes for success in the locker room and pushes the pace at practices because he really cares and came from a winning hockey team, so therefore knows where the pace/push level needs to be at.

....Or maybe he doesn't. But don't call it magical, because you don't know. It's undefinable to outsiders.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Real chemistry isn't magical, but a 3rd pair struggling by every single measurable metric contributing to team success is magical.

Great post. It's funny how desperate people will get to defend obviously questionable management decisions. Kind of reminds me of the Regher trade thread

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Magical was a silly way to describe team chemistry factor in a player. It isn't magical it's just undefinable from outside the locker room.

Undefinable is okay and allows the debate to move on, while magical is a purposely snippy word that attempts to belittle the opposition in this argument.

He doesn't know and you don't know. Maybe Engelland is regarded as a really strong leader and a guy who pushes for success in the locker room and pushes the pace at practices because he really cares and came from a winning hockey team, so therefore knows where the pace/push level needs to be at.

....Or maybe he doesn't. But don't call it magical, because you don't know. It's undefinable to outsiders.

Fair enough. You're right

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by neo45

Great post. It's funny how desperate people will get to defend obviously questionable management decisions. Kind of reminds me of the Regher trade thread

What makes it obviously questionable? If Engelland was signed as a stop gap player to provide leadership and toughness and help us get to the cap floor then he's providing what he was intended too. Treliving is the one to determine this not us. To a lesser degree Hartley as well. I'm not even trying to defend him but rather give a bit of perspective. If this is the worst contract to complain about were doing better than most teams in the league.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The days of A-list players making it to UFA status are drawing to a close. Those kinds of players now get locked up for the duration of their prime. What you're left with are guys on the wrong side of 32 who have A-list reputations but no longer have A-list game.

The NHL is becoming a draft and develop league. Meaningful trades are rare. Free agency is a way to round out the supporting roles on rosters. That may be disappointing to fans who love trades and imagine quick turnarounds. But it's reality. And it's a league-wide approach, not a Flames thing.

I'm late, but this is how I view it. It is extremely rare to find a UFA that is a good deal; acquiring a player is guaranteed to have a cost, either a cost of a asset via trade or a dollar cost. At the moment, it makes no sense to give up a current or future asset via trade, so acquisitions were made via UFA. And you almost always pay for a UFA, especially if you are one of the worst teams in the league.

Then you look at the UFA list, quality players are almost always locked up to league max's for 8 years, but at the current stage of where the Flames are (and hopefully for all time too) it didn't make sense to go out and offer a 8 year contract. So you target the tier 2/3 players, which is where guys like Engelland and Mason Raymond fall in.

Sure, some year's we'll take a gamble on a player and it works out (Tanguay, Olli) and this year, that gamble was Setoguchi, but that didn't work out. No cost through asset, minimal cost through dollars... hard to complain.

To me, I get that people look at the players that Treliving acquired via UFA and are concerned (and Bollig too)... but from the org POV, I get that they want to create competition and let their prospects develop and force them to win positions, so they don't fall into the failures of what the Oilers do. Given that there are no expectations for the team to be competitive this year, IMO its not a big deal that his Engelland, Raymond, Diaz and Bollig are struggling.

[theoforever]

I'm very concerned that our GM has picked busts in Engelland, Raymond, Bollig.
He gave up assets and term. It shows what kind of judge of talent he is.
Interesting that Knight is setting AHL on fire, while Shore who many thought should have automatically been given an NHL spot that he didn't earn, has done very little. How competent is our GM?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by theoforever

I'm very concerned that our GM has picked busts in Engelland, Raymond, Bollig.
He gave up assets and term. It shows what kind of judge of talent he is.
Interesting that Knight is setting AHL on fire, while Shore who many thought should have automatically been given an NHL spot that he didn't earn, has done very little. How competent is our GM?

Woah there. I'm not concerned about the pickups per se, but they have been fairly underwhelming. Term and money is irrelevant in terms of us competing now and in the future. There were holes needed filling and they were the plugs he wanted, whatever.

As for the Shore/Knight thing, what are you talking about? Knight has three good games now and the player who has wildly outscored him is suddenly worse??

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by theoforever

I'm very concerned that our GM has picked busts in Engelland, Raymond, Bollig.
He gave up assets and term. It shows what kind of judge of talent he is.
Interesting that Knight is setting AHL on fire, while Shore who many thought should have automatically been given an NHL spot that he didn't earn, has done very little. How competent is our GM?

Jay is that you?

[Lumby Lager]

Originally Posted by theoforever

I'm very concerned that our GM has picked busts in Engelland, Raymond, Bollig.
He gave up assets and term. It shows what kind of judge of talent he is.
Interesting that Knight is setting AHL on fire, while Shore who many thought should have automatically been given an NHL spot that he didn't earn, has done very little. How competent is our GM?

WOW, had a bad day?

The only asset's he gave up was a third round pick and that is not much. It is not so much of a case of poor judgement as it is a case of that was the choices he had. We finished in 27th place and we had been projected to finish in the bottom 2 this season. Professional hockey player's want to get paid and they want to WIN! This off season we will have a lot bigger pool of UFA's to choose from if we go down that path.

[GioforPM]

The 3rd rounder given up for Bollig is only a bad trade if the guy the Flames would have chosen there makes the NHL and plays better thasn Bollig. So we will never know, but you can probably find stats on the average number of 3rd rounders who make it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by theoforever

I'm very concerned that our GM has picked busts in Engelland, Raymond, Bollig.
He gave up assets and term. It shows what kind of judge of talent he is.
Interesting that Knight is setting AHL on fire, while Shore who many thought should have automatically been given an NHL spot that he didn't earn, has done very little. How competent is our GM?

Shore is an AHL all star this year and Knight is not.

[theoforever]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Jay is that you?

Good guess. Wouldn't Jay be getting nailed for those additions?
Anyway, good thing that Jays's prospects and additions are doing well.

Knight has been doing well prior to the trade too, but I will patiently wait for Shore to show what Trelliving has seen for years.

Yeah, a 3rd isn't much for nothing, Cammy for nothing isn't much either, keep the count rolling, of how much isn't much?
Little mistakes, no big deal, free pass, etc.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Treliving really hasn't done much in the way of trades or signings to warrant any extreme criticism or praise IMO. Everythings been pretty minor so far, with little to no impact one way or another on the team today or in the future.

Underwhelmed with the Engelland signing but it certainly falls into the above category. I'll wait until some of the big moves start happening before I start making judgements.