Fleury overdue for recognition by Flames

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I think some people here have a hard time separating the Hockey Hall of Fame from a team honoring a player's jersey number. They are not the same and what each represents are two totally different things. Does he deserve to be in the Hall? Sure. Up on the Dome's rafters? I don't think so. To me, retiring a jersey number has to be more than just a players stats. How many players in the Hall have their jersey numbers retired?

Frankly, Fleury hasn't been a great ambassador for this team or this city. I respect what he's gone through in his personal life but that shouldn't have any bearing on retiring his number. I wouldn't be upset if they did retire (or honor) his number but I also don't think he's overdue or that it's some kind of travesty that it hasn't been already done.

This is exactly it right here.

The Flames are not required to retire numbers, it's entirely at their discretion. And I'm going to assume the entire retirement process is at their expense as well.

So if they've got a great player, with a strained relationship with the organization I can absolutely see why'd the Flames would be hesitant to spend a few thousand dollars (flights, hotel, ticket, arena production stuff) and roll out the red carpet for some one who may end up embarrassing them.

[Ne7en]

When exactly did being a great ambassador for Calgary become the standard for a Calgary Flames player to have his jersey retired?

Jersey retirement = Hockey ability, nothing else.

Like many before me have stated there are far worse cases of players with poor character that have their jerseys retired. It's about hockey, not about whether the guy said hi to you at the local grocery store.

[Locke]

Heres how I see it.

Its all about the accumulation and disposition of Goodwill.

If you consider Goodwill an asset, Fleury accumulated a significant amount of it through his loyalty and excellent performance for the Calgary Flames Franchise.

However, he also spent a hefty amount of that accumulated Goodwill on relying on people to either keep him out of trouble or get him out of trouble if that failed.

The Organization, and I dont know if its fair to blame or credit the owners, but they're the ones who have been around the longest, but the Organization have attempted to do nothing but help Fleury at every turn and it doesnt appear as though that effort has been appreciated.

If anything he kind of seems to throw it back in their faces rather contemptuously.

So, while hes been burning through the organization's goodwill he hasnt been accruing any and it simply seems that at the moment there just isnt enough left.

I get the impression that at some point his jersey will be retired, but at the moment hes his own worst enemy, he probably just needs to back off a bit.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Ne7en

When exactly did being a great ambassador for Calgary become the standard for a Calgary Flames player to have his jersey retired?

Jersey retirement = Hockey ability, nothing else.

Like many before me have stated there are far worse cases of players with poor character that have their jerseys retired. It's about hockey, not about whether the guy said hi to you at the local grocery store.

Since when?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ne7en

When exactly did being a great ambassador for Calgary become the standard for a Calgary Flames player to have his jersey retired?

Jersey retirement = Hockey ability, nothing else.

Like many before me have stated there are far worse cases of players with poor character that have their jerseys retired. It's about hockey, not about whether the guy said hi to you at the local grocery store.

No. It isnt. Not at all.

[rotten42]

I've had many dealings with Player A over the years. He's always been a dick.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In this thread: bitter small people.

The simple truth is, Fleury's number is retired, and has been since 1999. It is pretty lame that the org hasn't found it's way to formalizing this yet.

Bitter small people? Seriously?

There are people with valid opinions on why Fleury should not be honored. Yes, nobody at all is taking away his on-ice success - he was a very good player and was often a huge treat to watch. I don't think there is anyone taking issue with that.

I believe people are taking issue with it is because they think the standard for jersey retirements and/or honoring should go beyond on-ice performances and include the 'great ambassador for the team and the community' aspect. I find nothing wrong with that, and I wouldn't characterize these people as being bitter or small at all.

Even if you don't believe that a player has to show those values - that they don't have to be such an ambassador to the game, a wonderful team mate, or an ambassador for the community, at least a player (in the opinion of myself and I am guessing many other posters) shouldn't be bringing with him such an air of negativity and controversy.

I don't think you can categorize people as being bitter and small for thinking that.

I would also like to add a bit to the 'Conroy' points.

Yes, Fleury was spot-on in regards to Conroy's performance. Everyone saw it. We all knew 'this is it'. I just find it rather 'small and bitter' (sorry Resolute) that Fleury had to make those public comments. Does he have the right? Absolutely - everyone does. Was it true? Yeah, probably. Should he have said it or at least worded his statement a little bit more 'PR'? DEFINITELY. He came off as a pretty bitter dude there, and I think embarrassed Conroy. Conroy of all people! If there is a single player in the history of the organization that has possibly shown more class than Lanny MacDonald (if that is possible even), it would have to be Conroy. To make those comments and embarrass him in the media like that I thought was 'low-class'.

Also, calling the organization 'stupid' on top of this when they went out of their way to help him get reinstated (rather a huge favor, no?) and allowed him to retire with some dignity and class (upon which that became a bit tarnished with his said remarks) was a bit ridiculous and shows that Fleury still has no filter and in no way can ever be considered an 'ambassador to the team'.

IMO, what would have been really stupid by the management team, would have been to bank on a 41 year old former player who was completely out of hockey for the past 5 years and POSSIBLY bringing loads of baggage over re-signing a 38 year old center who was continually in the NHL and who carries a lot of positive leadership qualities and attributes. I think they made the right choice there, even if Conroy only lasted 18 games.

[trublmaker]

If Theo started this "retire my number" quest, management should give his number to the next available player

[habernac]

Elmer Lach waited 55 years to have his number retired. And he retired the NHL's leading scorer. I'm betting he didn't act like a jackass to the Canadiens ownership, either.

[MoBiBu]

Conroy's a big boy and doesn't need a White Knight defending his honour regarding a blog post that Fleury himself retracted shortly after posting, realizing his honesty would create headaches. No-one forgets on the internet, of course.

Class apparently doesn't have anything to do with leaving money on the table... which Fleury did for the Flames and which Conroy didn't when he signed with Los Angeles after the cup run. And then there's the fact Conroy himself admitted the ice was tilted in favor of players like himself against after Fleury's comeback attempt: "The reality was, coming in, there’s 14 forwards here on one-way contracts. It makes it tough for someone to come in here and take a job."

Also "take a job?" that's some no-good sense of entitlement, isn't it?

How many people were complaining about the fact Setoguchi was getting playing time based on a similar idea? Are fans happy paying premium prices for seats while management isn't putting out the best product on the ice because it slightly affects their rather healthy bottom line?

It's not like Conroy had only nice things to say about Fleury when he returned to Calgary:

"I hated him," said Conroy. "Really... He's kind of yappy, but he works hard. He's in your face. It's always about winning, and he competes hard... He probably said some stuff to me."

That quote is fairly innocuous compared to Fleury's blog straight up, but this is nice guy Conroy speaking some ill ('hated him', 'yappy') versus Fleury who isn't surprising anyone when he shoots his mouth off.

Also, where did the Flames go out of their way to help Fleury get reinstated? I've read of meetings involving league and NHLPA officials, along with Fleury and his agent - can you point me at some article that shows how the Flames helped Fleury get reinstated?

Finally, Conroy played 81 games over 2 seasons, registering 5 goals and 12 assists, after the preseason Fleury played for the Flames. Would it really have been so bad to risk an entry level amount of money on a former player hell bent on winning based on his on-ice performance to that point and in spite of his age who had put up essentially the same stats as Iginla, with the understanding there wasn't room for something like a 37-game no goal drought playing 13.5 minutes a night?

After all, the Flames were fine with burning a contract on Conroy in 2010-2011 in order to get Conroy to 1000 games; why not take a cheap flyer on the chance Fleury's pre-season results were more than a fluke seeing as the sample size was small enough to say the results weren't certain? I remember that Fleury didn't have the speed he once did but last I checked the puck travels faster than any player can skate and it's the scoreboard that has the final say on whether a team has succeeded and not the number of smiles in the dressing room.

[Freeway]

The Flames aren't a public company. They have the right to honour people for whatever reason they please. If they choose not to honour Fleury's on-ice contributions because of other factors, regardless of how far the public perceives it to be, it's a valid reasoning.

[GioforPM]

It's not about Conroy needing defending. It's about Fleury not knowing that he shouldn't say negative things about guys he played with, even in preseason. And not knowing he shouldn't trash talk guys who were headed for a role on the team after retirement.

BTW, was Conroy's statement quoted there about playing against Fleury? It sounds like he was asked - what did you think about Fleury when you played against him?

[GioforPM]

Offering very different perspectives of their previous experiences with Theoren Fleury are Jarome Iginla and Craig Conroy.
"I hated him," said Conroy. "Really.
"He's kind of yappy, but he works hard. He's in your face. It's always about winning, and he competes hard.
"He probably said some stuff to me."
Out of the league for six years, Fleury is attempting his comeback with the Flames at the age of 41. Conroy, at 38, is no longer the oldest at training camp. It eases the formerly harsh feelings.
...

Skating with Flames at the Westside Recreation Centre for a few months, Fleury has made an impression.
"He can still score goals if Westside is any indication," Conroy said. "He's working hard. He came in in great shape."

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MoBiBu

Conroy's a big boy and doesn't need a White Knight defending his honour regarding a blog post that Fleury himself retracted shortly after posting, realizing his honesty would create headaches. No-one forgets on the internet, of course.

Class apparently doesn't have anything to do with leaving money on the table... which Fleury did for the Flames and which Conroy didn't when he signed with Los Angeles after the cup run. And then there's the fact Conroy himself admitted the ice was tilted in favor of players like himself against after Fleury's comeback attempt: "The reality was, coming in, there’s 14 forwards here on one-way contracts. It makes it tough for someone to come in here and take a job."

Also "take a job?" that's some no-good sense of entitlement, isn't it?

How many people were complaining about the fact Setoguchi was getting playing time based on a similar idea? Are fans happy paying premium prices for seats while management isn't putting out the best product on the ice because it slightly affects their rather healthy bottom line?

It's not like Conroy had only nice things to say about Fleury when he returned to Calgary:

"I hated him," said Conroy. "Really... He's kind of yappy, but he works hard. He's in your face. It's always about winning, and he competes hard... He probably said some stuff to me."

That quote is fairly innocuous compared to Fleury's blog straight up, but this is nice guy Conroy speaking some ill ('hated him', 'yappy') versus Fleury who isn't surprising anyone when he shoots his mouth off.

Also, where did the Flames go out of their way to help Fleury get reinstated? I've read of meetings involving league and NHLPA officials, along with Fleury and his agent - can you point me at some article that shows how the Flames helped Fleury get reinstated?

Finally, Conroy played 81 games over 2 seasons, registering 5 goals and 12 assists, after the preseason Fleury played for the Flames. Would it really have been so bad to risk an entry level amount of money on a former player hell bent on winning based on his on-ice performance to that point and in spite of his age who had put up essentially the same stats as Iginla, with the understanding there wasn't room for something like a 37-game no goal drought playing 13.5 minutes a night?

When people like you, when they think you are a good guy, you get favours and preferential treatment. Everyone likes Conroy. They like him so much, he still works there!

This is true in all walks of life.

If people think you are a loose cannon or a potential problem, they aren't going to go out of their way to help you out.

Originally Posted by MoBiBu

I remember that Fleury didn't have the speed he once did but last I checked the puck travels faster than any player can skate and it's the scoreboard that has the final say on whether a team has succeeded and not the number of smiles in the dressing room.

It's actually a little bit of both.

It was pretty clear that Theo wasn't going to make much of a difference on the ice, but he still had HoF credentials on making things ####ty off of it. Why risk it for a guy who had clearly lost it, and had been out of the game for so long?

There was no reason to risk it, so they didn't.

[PeteMoss]

Honestly if the Flames ownership can't get over Fleury being bitter and spouting off over being cut then I'd be worried about them. They guys are rich businessmen, I'm pretty confident they've dealt with, employed and honoured people who didn't like them.

My guess is that they are worried about Fleury doing something beyond yapping and want to wait until he's a bit older and calmer.

He should be up there eventually.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Honestly if the Flames ownership can't get over Fleury being bitter and spouting off over being cut then I'd be worried about them. They guys are rich businessmen, I'm pretty confident they've dealt with, employed and honoured people who didn't like them.

My guess is that they are worried about Fleury doing something beyond yapping and want to wait until he's a bit older and calmer.

He should be up there eventually.

I think you're missing the point. These guys have helped Fleury. They still try and help Fleury. They bent over backwards to give him that opportunity.

And he throws it back in their faces.

That was just the icing on the crapcake.

[Hanna Sniper]

I would much rather see the Flames hand the number 14 to someone else, I don't think he deserves it

hell of a player though

[Flacker]

If Theo was a mute, his number would already be hanging in the rafters.

The guy is his own worst enemy, always has been, always will be.

I really wish I had never read his book, as it took me from being a fan and viewing him as a hero, to having a lot less respect for him as a person.

In Theo's eyes, the Flames wouldn't even still be in Calgary without his "salvation". This kind of delusion, doesn't justify reward.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by MoBiBu

"I hated him," said Conroy. "Really... He's kind of yappy, but he works hard. He's in your face. It's always about winning, and he competes hard... He probably said some stuff to me."

I can't say for certain the tone in which it was said, but that seems more like a compliment than anything else. Players like Fleury should be hated by their opponents. This wasn't Conroy talking about an ex-teammate, this was Conroy talking about an ex-opponent who was known, and thrived, getting under people's skins. I would bet a small sum that that quote was not meant to be insulting or was taken as an insult.

[CliffFletcher]

I gotta wonder what the public perception would be a lot of guys who played in the 70s, 80s, and 90s if they had social media around then. How many outrageous gaffes would a guys like Phil Esposito, Denis Potvin, or Bernie Nichols make? Personally, I don't give a crap what athletes tweet or post on Facebook. Especially years after they've retired.

And let's be honest - only a tiny, tiny fraction of fans know anything about what Fleury has said or posted online. Just the obsessives and the easily riled. As a fan, I don't care if Fleury hurt Conroy's feelings, or put some noses out of joint in ownership, or toots his own horn on Facebook. I paid to watch him play hockey on the ice. And what he accomplished on the ice was remarkable.