[PGT] Canucks 4, Flames 2

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Outside of Forsberg, have you seen the rest of their forward group? It's mostly muckers and their center depth is weak. The Flames have more skill upfront

The Preds are thin on defense too. After Josi and McDonagh, it's a bunch of bottom pairing defensemen (including Fabbro). The Flames were more skilled on the backend right up until the departures of Hanifin and Tanev.


Brunette has coached a team that was supposed to be just outside the playoff bubble to the best record in the league since Game 15 of the season.

That's the difference a good coach makes. Otherwise, they'd be right where the Flames are.

By what metric are you judging their skill up front vs ours?

The Flames have nine forwards with 20 or more points while the Predators feature ten forwards with 20 or more points, but the top end of the Predators roster outproduces the Flames top end by a good margin.

You saying the Flames were more skilled on back-end prior to moving Hanifin and Tanev is also missing the impact of the top-end of their roster. Josi is a Norris Trophy defenceman. I think you're missing that Carrier, Lauzon, and Fabbro make for pretty solid depth when you have Josi doing what he does.

Elite players with good depth >> No elite players with better depth.

The top-end of your roster drives success in this league, the Flames top-end roster is pretty poor - and outright pitiful if you were to subtract Markstrom.

Predators have an elite goalie.
Flames have an elite goalie.
Predators have an elite defenceman.
Flames do not have an elite defenceman.
Predators have an elite winger.
Flames do not have an elite winger.
Neither the Flames nor the Predators have an elite centre.

Predators top-end >> Flames top-end. Making the future outlook worse for the Flames is also the fact that Markstrom is 34 and Saros is 28. Both teams have good young goalies coming in Askarov and Wolf, although I believe you'd generally see Asakarov ranked ahead of Wolf.

[VilleN]

I don't understand how people think coaching is the problem - or how you can even tell. Our team isn't good. We're rebuilding. It is pretty hard to have a good power play when you don't have a single elite scorer - sure Sharangovich has a lethal shot, but if he's your best scorer on your top PP, that's a problem. I'll judge coaching and special teams once we actually have the talent to expect better. We could have Scotty Bowman coaching this team, and we'd still suck... because we're supposed to suck.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It doesn't matter what they pay Huberdeau, Forsberg >>> Huberdeau.

"Supposed to be", the Flames are dealing with the reality of the situation.

Just because previous management deemed these Flames players worth their contracts, doesn't mean they are as good as other players around the league. They are what they are, which is a bottom-10 roster.

He had several years that he easily out produced Forsberg by a fair margin

But you are right, he is half the player now.

I am only saying if the Flames players are playing like they are supposed to, they are not far from Nashville. But that was before they traded the UFAs

Now the are clearly in the lottery in many ways

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

By what metric are you judging their skill up front vs ours?

The Flames have nine forwards with 20 or more points while the Predators feature ten forwards with 20 or more points, but the top end of the Predators roster outproduces the Flames top end by a good margin.

You saying the Flames were more skilled on back-end prior to moving Hanifin and Tanev is also missing the impact of the top-end of their roster. Josi is a Norris Trophy defenceman. I think you're missing that Carrier, Lauzon, and Fabbro make for pretty solid depth when you have Josi doing what he does.

Elite players with good depth >> No elite players with better depth.

The top-end of your roster drives success in this league, the Flames top-end roster is pretty poor - and outright pitiful if you were to subtract Markstrom.

Predators have an elite goalie.
Flames have an elite goalie.
Predators have an elite defenceman.
Flames do not have an elite defenceman.
Predators have an elite winger.
Flames do not have an elite winger.
Neither the Flames nor the Predators have an elite centre.

Predators top-end >> Flames top-end. Making the future outlook worse for the Flames is also the fact that Markstrom is 34 and Saros is 28. Both teams have good young goalies coming in Askarov and Wolf, although I believe you'd generally see Asakarov ranked ahead of Wolf.

Points are not the be all end all indicator of skill. Look at the Jets...until two games ago, none of their star forwards (Scheifle, Connor, Ehlers) were PPG, yet the team is amongst the top in the league in Rick Bowness' defense-first, "low event" system. Some coaching systems facilitate high scoring and others don't...there's no correlation to skill. On the Preds, Nyquist is skilled, but he was a borderline cap dump in CBJ last year. Sissons is a bottom six player. McCarron, Sherwood, and Smith were were all grinder-type tweeners until now, yet they're all playing middle six minutes. Even Reilly is more of a workman-like player than a skilled one.

Brunette has every forward on that team contributing on the scoreboard, but not a single person is looking at that forward group and thinking its skilled.

Contrast that to the Flames roster that has four former 30-goal scorers (Huberdeau, Kadri, Mangiapane, and Kuzmenko) and three 20-goal scorers (Coleman, Sharangovich, and Backlund), but is in the bottom half of the league for scoring.

Josi is a great "have" on defense for the Preds, but they are really thin on defense. Players like Lauzon and Fabbro can take regular minutes, but there is a reason why they have never played higher than third pairing. They're just not that good.

The Flames' defense at the start of the season with Weegar, Hanifin, Andersson, and Tanev was one of the deepest in the league, yet they were among the leakiest teams in the league for GA right up until the trade deadline. That's a coaching issue with Huska's passive zone defense scheme. Let's also not forget that Weegar was 7th and 14th in Norris voting before coming to Calgary, but doesn't look quite as good in the Flaming C as he did for Florida.

The Flames might not have a MacKinnon/Makar type gamebreaker, but there is more skill on the roster than what we're seeing on the ice. With the exception of Sutter (except his stubborness last year), coaching continues to be an achilles heel for this team and probably will continue to be an issue until they pony up the $$$ for a real coach instead of the value options like Huska, Ward, GG, etc.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Yeah coaching is not the problem.

Every reputable media outlet had the Flames pegged as a Wildcard team before the year started by looking at what they had on paper. The talent was there, the coaching was not. When you have a team full of East/West players and you try and play a physical teams North/South style you are not going to succeed. Just because the team has a history of dumpster diving for coaches doesn't mean when they do it again this time it can't be coaching that is the problem.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Nashville has a better roster.

Filip Forsberg: 78 points
Roman Josi: 72 points
Gustav Nyquist: 63 points
Ryan O’Reilly: 58 points
Thomas Novak: 39 points

Vs.

Nazem Kadri: 59 points
Blake Coleman: 51 points
Yegor Sharangovich: 50 points
Jonathan Huberdeau: 43 points
Mackenzie Weegar: 40 points

They’re a good deal more talented. The only place the Flames are on-par with the Predators is in net with Marky/Saros.

I would bet every earthly possession I own if Andrew Brunette coached this team instead, the Flames players would have way higher numbers and be easily in a playoff spot. You just totally outlined why coaching is a huge reason why this team has not succeeded.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Points are not the be all end all indicator of skill. Look at the Jets...until two games ago, none of their star forwards (Scheifle, Connor, Ehlers) were PPG, yet the team is amongst the top in the league in Rick Bowness' defense-first, "low event" system. Some coaching systems facilitate high scoring and others don't...there's no correlation to skill. On the Preds, Nyquist is skilled, but he was a borderline cap dump in CBJ last year. Sissons is a bottom six player. McCarron, Sherwood, and Smith were were all grinder-type tweeners until now, yet they're all playing middle six minutes. Even Reilly is more of a workman-like player than a skilled one.

Brunette has every forward on that team contributing on the scoreboard, but not a single person is looking at that forward group and thinking its skilled.

Contrast that to the Flames roster that has four former 30-goal scorers (Huberdeau, Kadri, Mangiapane, and Kuzmenko) and three 20-goal scorers (Coleman, Sharangovich, and Backlund), but is in the bottom half of the league for scoring.

Josi is a great "have" on defense for the Preds, but they are really thin on defense. Players like Lauzon and Fabbro can take regular minutes, but there is a reason why they have never played higher than third pairing. They're just not that good.

The Flames' defense at the start of the season with Weegar, Hanifin, Andersson, and Tanev was one of the deepest in the league, yet they were among the leakiest teams in the league for GA right up until the trade deadline. That's a coaching issue with Huska's passive zone defense scheme. Let's also not forget that Weegar was 7th and 14th in Norris voting before coming to Calgary, but doesn't look quite as good in the Flaming C as he did for Florida.

The Flames might not have a MacKinnon/Makar type gamebreaker, but there is more skill on the roster than what we're seeing on the ice. With the exception of Sutter (except his stubborness last year), coaching continues to be an achilles heel for this team and probably will continue to be an issue until they pony up the $$$ for a real coach instead of the value options like Huska, Ward, GG, etc.

You can only ask a coach to do so much with non-elite talent. A market like this only gets a shot at an elite coach once in a blue moon, so make sure the foundation is ready for one.

And I would argue there’s even less skill on the roster than we’ve seen.

0 game breaking talents.

0 on the way.

Kadri, Coleman, Backlund and Sharangovich are the only players having halfway respectable years up front.

Weegar has been great on D. He’s one man. He strikes me as Doughty-lite, and when the rest of the roster is better, I expect he’ll continue to be productive for the bulk of his deal.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Coleman, Sharky & Weegar are all having career offensive years.
Doesn't the coach get credit for that? Or does he only get blame?

This roster is weak, some people will never admit it & always blame the coach, full moons, voodoo, whatever excuse they can find.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Coleman, Sharky & Weegar are all having career offensive years.
Doesn't the coach get credit for that? Or does he only get blame?

This roster is weak, some people will never admit it & always blame the coach, full moons, voodoo, whatever excuse they can find.

Mercury is in Retrograde goddammit!!

[Igottago]

Its remarkable Huska kept the team in the playoff race as long as he did. Even before the UFA's all got traded, this wasn't a great team. The current roster in a full season is a lottery team.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Huberdeau and Mangiapane as the 1 and 3 top paid forwards have really failed to produce. At least they can clear the deck of Mangiapane next year. But Huberdeau is serious sunk cost. Going to be a major handcuff for a long time. You can't overcome that type of problem.

When does the next CBA kick in? Maybe there will be compliance buyouts.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

When does the next CBA kick in? Maybe there will be compliance buyouts.

I think that really is the only hope

[Blaster86]

So an adorable thing from last night. There is a video out there of Empty Netter's daughter realizing the entire arena is chanting her dad's name.

If you just like seeing cute stuff you should have a look for it.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

So an adorable thing from last night. There is a video out there of Empty Netter's daughter realizing the entire arena is chanting her dad's name.

If you just like seeing cute stuff you should have a look for it.

I heard from a guy they were actually chanting "empty netter" and he has receipts!

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I heard from a guy they were actually chanting "empty netter" and he has receipts!

Obviously.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I'm utterly confused by this whole empty netter thing.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Every reputable media outlet had the Flames pegged as a Wildcard team before the year started by looking at what they had on paper.

Not arguing your opinion, but the media thinks the Oilers are cup contenders every single year for almost the past decade, despite never having defense or a reliable goaltender. And then they act surprised when the Oilers don't make it to the conference finals every season.

The media doesn't know ####. The ones who do are the ones part of the front office of teams.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Not arguing your opinion, but the media thinks the Oilers are cup contenders every single year for almost the past decade, despite never having defense or a reliable goaltender. And then they act surprised when the Oilers don't make it to the conference finals every season.



The media doesn't know ####. The ones who do are the ones part of the front office of teams.

Yeah not a solid piece of evidence for how the Flames "should" be good. You certainly can't really use it as direct evidence that it's all on the coach.

Hell Huska isn't even the worst coach on the bench.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'll agree that its not the 'only' problem, but its still 'a' problem.

If you dont have the talent available to enforce your vision, you have to adapt to that, and I dont see them doing that.

There are many issues and the structure of the powerplay is certainly one of them.

I understand what you’re saying, but I suspect Huska is already doing that. He likely has his core principles in there but has the brakes on for certain aspects given his roster.

That would be my *guess* but it makes more sense to me than Huska trying to pretend his roster isn’t what it is.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Every reputable media outlet had the Flames pegged as a Wildcard team before the year started by looking at what they had on paper. The talent was there, the coaching was not. When you have a team full of East/West players and you try and play a physical teams North/South style you are not going to succeed. Just because the team has a history of dumpster diving for coaches doesn't mean when they do it again this time it can't be coaching that is the problem.

I think your displeasure with the coach has been obvious from day one.

I would argue that this is a wild card team if it remained intact. Did the media consider the Great Sell Off when they were making the wild card projection? I’m wagering no.

Edit: I would also add here that Huska’s number one center entering the season decided to cash it in. That’s clearly not Huska’s fault because now a ‘good’ coach is having equal problems getting production out of Lindholm.