Phaneuf,Sjostrom,Aulie traded to leafs for Hagman,Stajan,Mayers,White

[ernie]

You can never truly tell what a player will do on one team or another but the thing that would scare me as a GM when acquiring players from poor teams that have little depth is the Brian Bradley effect. Someone has to score and get points...it doesn't mean that player is good.

Might not be the case here but IMO if you move out a core piece that has the upside of Phaneuf you better be getting back a similar player rather than a couple of potential Brian Bradley's. If the flames did a great job of pro scouting it won't be an issue. Wait and see I guess.

[Ren]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

You think Bouw > Dion?

Absolutely I do.

[Caged Great]

I think Bouw > Regehr + Phaneuf + Sarich

That's how much I value Bouwmeester.

Actually, outside of Kipper, the last person I want traded from this team is Jay.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

You think Bouw > Dion?

You can argue that Dion was an important part of the team, has a lot of potential, and could one day turn into a great player, and you will have a point.

But you can't argue that he is better than Bouwmeester and have any sort of credibility whatsoever.

[BloodFetish]

Successful teams in the cap era maximize their youth by not overpaying them in their RFA days. Sutter dug himself a hole by giving Phaneuf insane money on his second contract. The day he did that he also set the table for Phaneuf's departure.

As it turns out, Phaneuf looks to be delining in points for the third straight season - that's the wrong direction for a former Norris finalist with a $6.5 million cap hit. A very real danger for Sutter would be to NOT trade Phaneuf now and watch his value plummet further, to the point where his cap hit would be virtually untradable.

In the end Sutter did what he had to do. He addressed the immediate scoring needs and with the new-found cap flexibility set himself up well for the off-season. You can argue about the pieces he got back, but the fact remains: Phaneuf had to go for this team to become better.

I liked Dion's physical assets and his end-to-end rushes. I absolutely hated his lackadaisical defensive play. I think his biggest problem was between the ears.

Good luck in TO, Dion.

[slappipappi]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If you look at it with what it cost to get him, this is what it looks like.

Out

Leopold, Phaneuf, Sjostrom, Aulie and a 3rd

In

Bouwmeester, White, Hagman, Stajan, and Mayers

The In column looks a heck of a lot better than the Out column

And next season the cap hit for those two groups will be about $8.5M to
$18.8M.

Adding a FA to one side when it had nothing to do with the other players makes zero sense.

Why not subtract Cammerali too, we used some of his moiney to sign J-Bo. And if we resign Stajan, we likely can't afford Bourque, unless we let someone else go.

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by BloodFetish

Successful teams in the cap era maximize their youth by not overpaying them in their RFA days. Sutter dug himself a hole by giving Phaneuf insane money on his second contract. The day he did that he also set the table for Phaneuf's departure.

As it turns out, Phaneuf looks to be delining in points for the third straight season - that's the wrong direction for a former Norris finalist with a $6.5 million cap hit. A very real danger for Sutter would be to NOT trade Phaneuf now and watch his value plummet further, to the point where his cap hit would be virtually untradable.

In the end Sutter did what he had to do. He addressed the immediate scoring needs and with the new-found cap flexibility set himself up well for the off-season. You can argue about the pieces he got back, but the fact remains: Phaneuf had to go for this team to become better.

I liked Dion's physical assets and his end-to-end rushes. I absolutely hated his lackadaisical defensive play. I think his biggest problem was between the ears.

Good luck in TO, Dion.

Dion is declining in his second straight year. If you look at Bouws, he had a similar decline in points too and is on pace for his 3rd worst season. He may be better defensively but doesn't scare other teams because he is soft - he never hits!

[Caged Great]

Lidstrom doesn't hit, but he's one of the top 5 D-men in NHL history.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

Dion is declining in his second straight year. If you look at Bouws, he had a similar decline in points too and is on pace for his 3rd worst season. He may be better defensively but doesn't scare other teams because he is soft - he never hits!

Not Bouwmeester's game and not why Sutter signed him. Yeah, I'd like him to score more - maybe the much anticipated switch back to his natural LD will help.

But now that you mention it, I hope the old Regehr, the irritable Hemsky-eating Regehr returns. His play really suffered while paired with Dion, didn't it?

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by BloodFetish

Not Bouwmeester's game and not why Sutter signed him. Yeah, I'd like him to score more - maybe the much anticipated switch back to his natural LD will help.

But now that you mention it, I hope the old Regehr, the irritable Hemsky-eating Regehr returns. His play really suffered while paired with Dion, didn't it?

Well Regehr is suffering just like Dion and Bouw. I don't know what the cause for it is.

As for Dion, his hitting is what made him dynamic. I would give up the defensive lapses for the hard hitting, big shooting Dion.

[Meers]

Conceptually, is trading part of the core of an 8th-9th place team in the West with a larger part of the core of the 15th place team in the East an intuitively bright move?

After all, aren't these four guys a big part of the reasons why the Leafs are in a much, much worse situation than the Flames?

I'd agree that short term the deal gives the Flames some needed depth up front and - depending upon the speed with which the incoming players can learn the Flames system - may possibly help sneak the Flames into the playoffs . . . . and so save Sutter's job (which is what this is all about).

But Stajan, Hagman and White certainly aren't going to keep Thorton, Marleau, Toews, Kane or the Sedins up at night worrying. The new guys don't make the Flames contenders for anything other than first round roadkill.

Also, this move could just as easily end the Flames' season as save it, if the incoming players' integration doesn't occur quickly. Another five game losing streak, while the new players adjust and build chemistry, would pretty much eliminate the Flames from playoff contention.

So even short term, I can't see the Flames becoming "Leafs West" as being a great thing . . . unless, you're cheering for one of the other Western teams on the playoff bubble.

And long term? Well, due to the UFA/RFA status of Stajan, Mayers and White, the trade really amounts to Pharneuf for Hagman and cap space. And that's a horrible trade. Hagman will never be a top ten forward. And UFAs are usually a poor value proposition. But, Phaneuf has been, and likely will be again due to his age, a top ten defenceman and part of the core of his team.

This trade has Leemanesque or Pedersonesque potential for backfiring.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Meers

But Stajan, Hagman and White certainly aren't going to keep Thorton, Marleau, Toews, Kane or the Sedins up at night worrying. The new guys don't make the Flames contenders for anything other than first round roadkill.

Well that is why you have Iginla, Kipper, Bouwmester and Reggie...

And even just trading Phaneuf straight up for Kovalchuk doesn't make us a contender either...bringin in 3 guys with offensive upside to complement Iginla, Jokinen, Langkow and Bork etc..gives you more options up front. One of the biggest problems this year is Iginla, double teamed all the time...he had no one, no one to take off that pressure, like a Tanguay or Juice etc...Calgary has some guys that other team now have to pay attention too..they may not be flashy, big names, but now Calgary has numbers and options...DEPTH....the move had to be made to get this team in a playoff spot..bottom line.

Every and any deal can back fire.

I am happy to have a GM, who takes risks. Risk taking means mistakes, but that is ok, he is always trying...he also fixes those mistakes most of the time..DS has done nothing in his time here, but to make this team as competive as possible and right now the bell is tolling on the core, its time to put up or move on

[Stocky]

Looking at it from a development side, both White and Stajan are showing improvement year over year, and the opposite was true with Dion. Hagman is what he is. I believe Dion may be slightly damaged goods. I think his hip is a problem once again. Not much was ever said about it publicly, but it has been mentioned:

He was given an MRI April,

http://www.calgarysun.com/sports/hoc...30321-sun.html

... rehab over the summer and looked fine at the beginning of the year, but he looks pretty stiff when he is skating again to me.

But it was a nagging injury, which is now coming to light a bit more:

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hoc...90241-sun.html

With 50 points in his second season, Phaneuf made his first all-star game appearance in 2006-07. Hampered by a nagging hip injury, he had a career-low 47 points last season along with a minus-11 which had Flames fans questioning both his offensive prowess and his defensive commitment.

Mgmt said he was fine, but was he?:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...s-preview.html

"What people didn't see last year is he was banged up a lot and it affected his play," Duane Sutter says. "We have very little concern for Dion Phaneuf to get back to where he should be in his career."


It was thought to be a hip pointer, but is it something chronic? He will be playing on adrenalin in Toronto at first and have some time off over the Olympic break to rest, but it is something to watch for in the future IMO.

He starts quickly some games, but looks to be wearing down as he gets deeper into the game. He is getting beat all over the ice because of his footspeed and lack of mobility by the third period most games from what I have been noticing.

If a chronic injury is even a possibility and you want to deal a d'man it is better safe than sorry. At one time this deal would have been unthinkable, so something must have happened to change Sutter's view, and I doubt if it was something like friction between he and Regher or any other trivial matter.

As for the trade itself, we give up some grit in White, but add another dimension, and we get two very good forwards and a character guy that is tough to play against in return.

This is an audition for Stajan IMO, he could be 'the one' to centere Iggy, if not, he will probably be gone and the deal will be Hagman and White for Phaneuf, Freddie and Aulie..meh. If however Stajan shows the right chemistry with Jarome, his contract will be extended and this may end up being Sutter's best trade so far. Big risk/reward scenario. Shows Sutter has balls though.

[_Q_]

Lost in all of the hype over Phaneuf is the fact that Don Cherry has to watch that Flamingo Sjostrom every Saturday. I don't know why this made me laugh.

[Newton]

As a comparison ...

Is Higgens, Stajan & White terrible compared to Jonathan Cheechoo and Milan Michalek - thats what the NHL's leading scorer goes for on the trade market after the star cashes in and signs the big contract- but only because his BIG contract goes with him. Why give up more players when there are other star players to sign with just cash in the summer?

On the whole I am surprised a bit by some of the fan reaction. i guess it comes down to what kind of asset is of the most value in a cap era. I think it has to come down to production per dollar.

Phaneuf is a great young player with lots of potential ....BUT he is also being paid today for that production of tomorrow. So the valuable parts of NHL teams are:

1) Players signed to good contracts (ie Renee Bourque getting near 30 goals @ 1.35 million)

2) Young stars ...because you are getting all world performance at really low cost.

Once that young star cashes in he is not as valuable a trade commodity.

If Phaneuf raises his game to Norris candidate levels ...well he is taking up that kind of cap space already.

The extra "value" in the deals on the weekend is the money it frees up that is the "player to be named later" in a deal where you are reworking how you spent the cap. Sutter traded Tanguay to Montreal for ...nothing, but they then had money to get Camalarri.

Cap space is a commodity. Calgary upgrades their scoring today right now ...and then has their cap space back to go and pay another star...and as insurance they already locked up J-Bo.

The Flames are better today than they were when the beat the Oilers Sat night ...and they still have the money for a star player of their choosing to be named later. In the pre cap era this is a terribly lopsided trade ...but the contract with the player handicaps their value IMO. I still like Phaneuf, but the problem is his contract - he is being paid today for his "potential" of the future. The Flames are built more short term than that.

[robocop]

Because of the fact that so many people are arguing either way for this I think only time will tell whether or not this was a dumb move.

One thing I noticed is that it really really has to suck to be Dion right now. The 3rd biggest name on the team gets traded for a bunch of nobodies to one of the worst teams in the league. You could tell Dion was devastated in the interviews, my guess is he was injured and the Sutter's knew it. At that point your only choice is to trade him while his value is still high.

[Sainters7]

Did anyone hear what Ron Wilson said Phaneuf did when he walked into the Maple Leafs dressing room for the first time? Walked straight over to the stereo and put on some tunes and cranked it. Who does that?? Nice first impression.

I think going to a media frenzy town like Toronto where Phaneuf's gonna feel like a superstar, not to mention Ron Wilson basically encouraging him to do whatever he wants, is going to go straight to his head, if it hasn't already. He better keep his head on straight and work hard and not think he's Gretzky or he's gonna find the media and fans out there are going to turn on him pretty quick.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Just listening to the FAN590 here in Toronto and Bill Waters is saying that the players in the Calgary dressing room are happy to see Phaneuf gone just as the Bruins players were happy to see Kessel gone.

Waters was saying that Phaneuf acted like he was there for 20 years...and then went on to say that he does not think the game very well, etc....

[Hustle]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Just listening to the FAN590 here in Toronto and Bill Waters is saying that the players in the Calgary dressing room are happy to see Phaneuf gone just as the Bruins players were happy to see Kessel gone.

Waters was saying that Phaneuf acted like he was there for 20 years...and then went on to say that he does not think the game very well, etc....

That's like the fourth or fifth time a reporter has pretty much hinted at that '2/20' nickname. Makes you wonder how much validity was there.

As for the deal.. not sure yet. I do think it makes us a better team in the short-term (we really needed to pick up some forward depth), but I really don't like how we dealt away a major asset without any real regard for the future. It's just a risky move by Sutter.

[Roof-Daddy]

My take on the trades made by Sutter the last couple of days. It sounds like he's done for now based on his interview today (I know it's Darryl and I shouldn't believe him lol), and will re-evaluate post Olympic break. I know alot of people are up in arms over losing Phaneuf and bringing in Kotalik, his lazy reputation and his 2 year/$3.0m deal, but I like what Sutter's done. He's subtracted from a strength of the team to address some severe weaknesses. I realize we have way too many forwards right now, but 3 are on the IR and we have no idea when or if any of them are coming back.

Out

Dion Phaneuf - Past Norris trophy candidate, and could get there again but at this point his development had stalled somewhat. This is a player who may or may not reach his ceiling, people talk about him like he's a sure fire Norris candidate for years to come. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Sucks to lose him but with all that money on the back-end, and our inability to score goals lately (compounded by some recent injuries) one of our defenseman had to be sacraficed to repair holes up front. Dion could bring the biggest return, and his contract being gone gave us cap space to add some skill up front.

Freddy Sjostrom - 4th liner, I expected more out him this year, but he was still a decent 4th liner. Bottom line though, we needed to replace some 4th liners with guys who could potentially put up some decent offensive numbers.

Brandon Prust - Another 4th liner, really hate to lose this guy, and I'm sure Sutter did too but Mayers should be able to fill his role on the team easily enough.

Olli Jokinen - Well, the center the majority of us wanted for years never got it going here in Calgary and that's unfortunate. He had almost a full season to get it going and as much as I liked him it just didn't look like he was ever going to find his groove. It's too bad because he really liked it here and said last night he had hoped to finish his career in Calgary. He said it himslef though "$5 million dollars and 11 goals isn't going to cut it"

In

Ian White - Has pretty much identical numbers to Phaneuf at a fraction of the cost. A lot of people seem to say he is alot like Giordano and one of the most under-rated defenseman in the league. He's also versatile and can play the wing once in awhile. Seems confident too, and quite firey......again very similar to Gio.

Matt Stajan - A passing center that can win face-offs. Something that we sorely need. He istantly became the Flames second leading scorer and has 16 goals to go along with his passing ability. A nice addition to our top six forwards.

Niklas Hagman - A sniper with skill, also solid defensively. Has 20 goals already and also has decent speed. It's been said that he can be streaky, but anyone who can score at all is going to be a help to this team. Another nice addition to our top six forwards.

Jamal Mayers - Getting on in his career, but still skates well, has a decent shot and can scrap good enough. He also has excellent face-off numbers. A bigger, older version of Prust with possibly a wee bit more upside offensively.

Chris Higgins - A good all round player with skill. Has scored 20+ in this league multiple times. Apparantly he was playing well in NY, but just couldn't get the puck to go in for him. Hopefully a change is just what he needed and will go on a tear for us. Another nice addition to the top six forwards.

Ales Kotalik - Skill to burn and a lethal shot. Another guy who has scored 20+ multiple times in the NHL. He's big too at 6'1 - 225lbs. Has a lazy streak though and apparantly fell out of favour with Torterella, but will hopefully be excited at a new opportunity here and help us offensively. Yet another addition to our top six forward group.


So, if you're keeping track, up front we've subtracted two 4th liners, and one underachieving top six forward, but added one 4th liner and FOUR potential top six forwards. Plus, we've replaced Phaneuf with a guy who comes with Giordano-like aura around him. That's a good thing isn't it? Seeing as how Gio has pretty much been our best all-round defenseman throughout this entire season? I think it is a good thing. Just about every Leaf fan I've talked to or seen post, has said that we are going to really like Ian White.

I realize that Kotalik and Higgins are having off years, but there is no denying the skill and potential they bring for the same combined cap hit of Jokinen by himself. If even just one of them find a groove here we will be miles ahead of where we were before these trades, because Olli just wasn't cutting it.

This team was struggling mightily offensively. Well take out Jokinen and add Hagman, Stajan, Kotalik and Higgins to Iginla, Langkow and Bourque.........we've gone from not having enough top six forwards to potentially more than we can fill two lines with. Will they all pan out? Maybe, maybe not but atleast all our eggs aren't in one or two underachieving baskets anymore. This is a good thing IMO.


I just hope that they can find some chemistry and find it quickly, because time isn't really on our side at this point.