The Temporary Foreign Worker program in Alberta

[BlackArcher101]

So where are all the youngin's working these days for their first jobs? Are they even working or has it shifted from the typical fast food job to something else I'm not aware of.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I'll assume you didn't interpret that like my acquaintances are cave men who actually wouldn't let their wives work.. That's just how a lot of guys here talk.
You and I have obviously seen different sides of Alberta oil patch employees. I'm referring to guys out on location who pull in huge bucks, drive huge trucks, and often unfortunately certain character traits surface over time that may include "being above" many, many other occupations as well as the classic "I don't even put my boots on for less than $___" an hour.
I've heard the statement you quoted verbatim more than once, in the workplace as well as over drinks.

I live in Blackfalds right now, basically a bedroom community to Red Deer. This town has gone from about 1500 to 8000+ in less than a decade, and I bought a place here about 3 years ago because I was able to get lot and home I was looking for at a great price. Thing is, a booming small town like this with young families constanrly moving here should have no problem staffing the new businesses and public buildings like the awesome new sports multiplex we got last year, but nobody here applies for those jobs. It's all men and women who work away or professionals in red deer.. No one wants to move here to work at the new Microtel or whatever pizza place or convenience store is going up next.

[killer_carlson]

the brunt of the TFW changes will be felt in smaller centers first, as there is not a critical mass of people to fill the jobs. You can increase wages all you want, but if there are 2000 jobs, and only 1800 people to fill them, someone is always short.

Another perspective people need to remember is this: back when most of the workforce graduated, you had to apply for jobs. Now, when you graduate you have employers lining up at career fairs desperate to hire you.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by ae118

There is some abuse of the Live-In Caregiver program, but I know many, many families who are great employers and find it invaluable as it's currently set up. I'm quite worried about what changes will be proposed for it. When there's no subsidized daycare and very limited openings, it's a tough situation.

It is invaluable as it is currently set up because it lowers the cost of daycare for them, that's the problem.

Any argument made that you can pay a TFW less than a citizen so the program is good is disgusting regardless of if the tfw has an improved life.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by GGG

It is invaluable as it is currently set up because it lowers the cost of daycare for them, that's the problem.



Any argument made that you can pay a TFW less than a citizen so the program is good is disgusting regardless of if the tfw has an improved life.

I think the pay rate is fairly reasonable, and barely know anyone who pays the minimum anyway. To me, the main problem is that childcare costs are often inflated in hot economies with no/few spots available. It's a larger issue.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by GGG

It is invaluable as it is currently set up because it lowers the cost of daycare for them, that's the problem.

Any argument made that you can pay a TFW less than a citizen so the program is good is disgusting regardless of if the tfw has an improved life.

I am willing to bet that you don't have kids at the daycare age right now.

This is an entirely separate issue entirely. We had to go on a waiting list for daycare prior to our even telling close family we were expecting. That's how short the availability of spots are.

[chemgear]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/ed...512/story.html


Temporary foreign worker Angie Bestray saw big problems on her very first pay day. The Filipina cleaner was handed an envelope full of cash with a pink post-it note stuck on top instead of a proper pay stub.

In handwriting, her employer recorded her wage at $11 an hour — though $14 was the rate she was supposed to be paid under her federally approved contract. Bestray also worked overtime, but was paid only straight time, in violation of provincial labour standards. That was December 2011.

For two years, Bestray said nothing. Then her new Canadian husband, Trevor Clark, tired of watching her work seven days a week without proper pay, urged her to complain to provincial labour standards.

A subsequent investigation found Bestray is owed $12,261 by her employer, confirmed Jay Fisher, public affairs for the department of jobs, skills, training and labour.

Labour standards found other troubling problems, according to the investigator’s May report, obtained by the Journal.

In December 2012, Bestray was supposed to receive a raise to $20 an hour. Nelma’s LMO (labour market opinion, the document filed to apply for temporary foreign workers) was renewed by the federal government with the new wage. But Nelma’s had not been paying the higher wage to Bestray, the officer discovered in the investigation.

Bestray and Clark also want to know why Bestray had to pay the cost of her flight to Canada as well as a $3,000 fee to an agency in the Philippines when both those charges are illegal under the temporary foreign workers program.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I'm sorry, but I think we are talking about different things. What I am saying is that TFWs will do the jobs we won't do, and enjoy the highest quality of life that they have ever known.

Your stat about debt just underscores what the attitude of Canadians is- that we need more than we can afford. Whereas most TFWs I know (and I know well enough for their kids to call me uncle Ken), are quite happy with what they have, and are now quite concerned about it all slipping away from them.

When I was working minimum wage jobs, I got by. I had room mates, and yes cash was tight. I used to go grocery shopping with a calculator, and there wasn't always money to splurge on the brand name Kraft Dinner. I made it through, and improved my status in life.

Bottom line is that TFWs are happy with what they are making; given the alternative they face right now of being send home- they would rather stay here and make minimum wage.

The best part of this program as it was, IMHO is that it allows for the hardest working immigrants to eventually become a PR and then a citizen. Isn't that what we want, people who are willing to work for their citizenship?

If you don't mind my asking:

How old are you, Ken?

[ken0042]

Mid 40s. Last time I worked minimum wage jobs was when I was around 27.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

How many of these hundreds of thousands of temporary foreign workers are skilled and how many are working simple service jobs?

Canada has other avenues for skilled immigrants.

Not at the moment we don't. There is a huge shortage of skilled workers, whether they are Canadians or immigrants.

The shortage will continue into the future regardless of what the government will do. It'll take years to fix the problem.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Mid 40s. Last time I worked minimum wage jobs was when I was around 27.

A lot has changed in 20 years, and the way you're talking speaks of someone who hasn't made minimum wage in awhile. I'm not saying that to sound dismissive, I'm saying it because it affects judgement about these sorts of things. I know you're married to someone who came over as a care giver initially, and so are intimately knowledgeable about some of those aspects, but I think you're dismissing the gross economic conditions that are at play here. Part of that is likely as a result of being Albertan as well.

When you were making minimum wage, you were living with roommates and scraping by. That's no standard to want to emulate, and the cost of living has only increased since then.

In 1975, Betamax was the hot technology, Captain & Tennille sang Love Will Keep us Together and it cost about $58,000 to buy a house in Toronto.

In 2013, Google Glass made its debut, Thrift Shop by Macklemore & Ryan Lewis ruled the charts and the average price of a home was just over $523,000.

Over that time, the minimum wage, after inflation, barely moved, according to a report released Wednesday by Statistics Canada.

The agency said the weighted average for the minimum wage among the provinces was $10.14 in 2013.

Expressed in 2013 dollars — or constant dollars, to account for inflation, as economists say — it was $10.13, just a penny less, in 1975. (The actual minimum wage was $2.40 in Ontario that year.)

The rate did change over the years between, falling to the equivalent of $7.53 per hour from 1975 to 1986 and rising to $8.81 in 1996. The real minimum wage remained stable at around $8.50 until 2003, and then began climbing.

The StatsCan report is sure to add fuel to the simmering debate over the minimum wage, income inequality and the reasons for Canada’s high youth unemployment rate.

“It makes absolute sense (the minimum wage) is around the same levels after inflation,” Nicole Troster, senior policy analyst for Ontario for the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said, referring to the 40-year time span.

The majority of minimum wage earners are between the ages of 15 and 24 and are in their jobs for about a year, she added.

The federation argues that increases in the minimum wage hurt businesses and the economy, and that to reduce poverty, the government should focus on skills training.

“We have had positive economic growth over the past four decades over and above the inflation rate. That’s why I say that all workers should share in the growth that they produce, including those who are earning minimum wage,” said Erin Weir, economist for the United Steelworkers union.

“While corporate lobbyists have complained bitterly about recent increases in the minimum wage, these improvements have simply restored the minimum wage to mid-1970s levels after it lagged behind inflation in the 1980s and 1990s.”

Of the 13 U.S. states that recently raised their minimum wage rate, 10 have experienced above-average job growth, said Armine Yalnizyan, senior economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

“It’s not the solution to poverty but it improves the purchasing power of young people, which means they have less debt and more opportunities and more choices about what to do with their money.”

As for companies that say they can’t afford to pay their workers more when the minimum wage goes up, “if the business model is so fragile that raising the minimum wage is going to drive you out of business, something else is likely to do that to you, too,” Yalnizyan added.

The StatsCan report said that 6.7 per cent of all paid employees earned the minimum wage in 2013, up from 5.0 per cent in 1997. The increase is proportion is partly a result of the minimum wage going up in many provinces, the report noted.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2014...cs_canada.html

One of the troubling findings in the Statistics Canada report is the rise in the number of Canadians earning just minimum wage.

The proportion of paid workers earning the minimum stands at about 6.7 per cent, compared to 5 per cent in 1997. The bulk of the jump occurred between 2003 and 2010, according to the agency.

“To some degree, the increase in the proportion of minimum-wage employees during those years was the result of increases in the minimum-wage rate in many provinces,” Statistics Canada said.

“That is because a portion of those who were paid just above the former minimum rate became paid at the new, revised rate and joined the group of minimum-wage earners.”

Consider this statistic: The proportion of young workers, between the ages of 15 and 19, who earned the minimum rose to 45 per cent in 2010 from 30 per cent in 2003, while those who earned between minimum and 10 per cent higher fell to 21 per cent from 31 per cent.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle19630636/

Let me make that real for you. A person working full-time, full-year at a minimum wage job in Ontario makes $20,500 before taxes. With the increase, they could make $2,500 more, pre-tax.

People at the bottom of the income spectrum spend all the money they have, and more. Increase their pay, they spend more money, raise demand, boost the economy. Employers don't create jobs; consumers do.

But raising the minimum wage could mean job loss too. That's the main point of those who argue increasing wages will do more harm than good (though why that only applies to workers and not bosses beats me).

There are solid arguments against raising the minimum wage from Stephen Gordon, Morley Gunderson and Gary Becker. But there are plenty of counterfactuals in this debate.

Importantly, some employers can absorb or pass on higher costs more easily than others, whether for labour or other inputs.

It's often assumed that employers who hire minimum wage workers are small businesses, who would be challenged by even a small increase in labour costs. Surprise: more minimum wage workers are being hired by businesses with more than 500 employees over time. In 1998, big business hired 29.6 per cent of all minimum wage employees in Canada; by 2012 they employed 45.3 per cent. In Ontario, big business accounts for almost half of all minimum-wage workers. Raise the minimum wage by just over a dollar an hour and those Tim Horton's and Canadian Tire jobs aren't going to disappear.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle9082977/

So, if we all agree that consumer spending drives the economy, accounting for more than half of Canada's GDP, having such a large number of the population making such a low wage is costing Canadians heavily, both in support of social programs for the poor as well as artificially stagnating the economy.

Compared internationally, it looks even worse. I remember the surprised expressed at the wage earned by PIMking for his job as a hotel manager. There was discussion about the relative cost of living and what that meant, but many were incredulous that he could be paid so meagrely. Well, adjusted, his wage is more than on par with Canadian wages:

Five Canadian jurisdictions − British Columbia ($8.00), New Brunswick ($8.60), Prince
Edward Island ($8.68), Alberta ($8.80) and the Northwest Territories ($8.81) – had lower
minimum wages than the US federal rate ($8.83) in 2010 and so rank at the bottom in Figure 45.
The other eight Canadian jurisdictions had higher minimum wages than the US federal rate −
Yukon ($8.92), Manitoba ($9.13), Nova Scotia ($9.16), Quebec ($9.17), Saskatchewan ($9.25),
Newfoundland and Labrador ($9.75), Nunavut ($10.00) and Ontario ($10.06). Canada’s highest
minimum wage in 2010 − Ontario − ranked third highest in Canada and the US.

Canada and other OECD countries

Canada ranks mid-pack internationally in terms of minimum wage rates but poorly when
comparing minimum wages with average wages. Figure 46 compares Canada with a number of
OECD nations, expressing rates in US purchasing power parity dollars [OECD 2011a].

http://www.caledoninst.org/publications/pdf/931eng.pdf

Guam, American Samoa, Alabama, Iowa, Arkansas...All have higher adjusted minimum wages than Alberta and BC.

TFWs are an effective way of preserving the minimum wage at poverty levels.

Here in B.C., someone working full-time, year-round on the minimum wage also falls far below the poverty line, especially in urban areas. A salary based on working 35 hours per week and 50 weeks per year at the minimum wage is almost $18,000, over $5,500 short of the Canada-wide low income cut-off for large cities and still over $2,000 short in medium-sized towns. Add in a dependant and the minimum wage becomes even more of a poverty wage. The comparisons to a living wage are even starker: a living wage is $19.62 in Metro Vancouver and $16.37 in the Fraser Valley. Looking at the data, we see that the real minimum wage in B.C. has stagnated for the past three decades, at the same time as labour productivity and GDP per capita have been steadily rising.

...

One of the most comprehensive Canadian studies to look at the demographics of minimum wage earners comes from Ontario. There, the Wellesley Institute calculated that nearly 40 per cent of minimum wage earners are over 25 years old. In addition, a disproportionate number come from demographic groups further marginalized in the labour market: women, recent immigrants and racialized minorities. The Ontario study also looked at those making within $4 per hour of the minimum wage; here, the demographic reality of low-wage work moves even more strongly away from the stereotype of a rich teenager flipping burgers. Over 60 per cent of this broader group of low-wage workers is over 25. While the proportion of the overall workforce working for minimum wage in B.C. is smaller than it is in Ontario, there are few reasons to think that there would be major differences in the demographics of minimum wage earners in this province or that the same trends would not apply.

...

If all the studies cited in the arguments above weren't enough evidence for the fact that the economics profession holds no monolithic position in the minimum wage debate, consider a public letter circulated in the U.S. Signed by over 600 economists, including seven past Nobel Prize winners, it argues that "increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labour market... [and] could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth." The debate is not a false one between hard-nosed economics and feel-good politics. There are many good reasons to raise the minimum wage and economic reasons are clearly among them.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/03/08...um-Wage-Myths/

Finally, this is all taking into account a single person being below the federal government standard of poverty. Tack on a single dependent or financial catastrophe and the figures are even more appalling for a first world nation that has seen staggering production efficiency and growth of the last several decades. The economy is more productive than ever, yet wages are stuck in poverty. This should be unacceptable, not some point of pride or "well I worked my way out of it".

No one should have to prioritize food or rent in Canada. When the federal government's own poverty standards are undercut by 15-20% by a full time minimum wage earner, that's a sign that the minimum wage is not a living wage.

Bringing in destitute and impoverished immigrants to sustain that level of poverty should be embarrassing.

Capitalism depends on consumers driving the economy. Companies who do not pay living wages are a drag on the economy and a burden on Canadian tax payers. For a company like Tim Hortons to attempt to undercut the Canadian tax payer in such a way and then claim that canadians are unwilling to do that job is disingenuous. Canadians are more than willing to work. The problem is, companies aren't willing to pay, and it's not because they can't afford it.

As Maclean’s reported in September, a small group of angry franchisees has filed a $1.95-billion proposed class-action lawsuit against the Hortons head office, claiming the company’s decision to scrap in-store deep fryers and introduce “par-baked” goods (manufactured at a warehouse, then trucked frozen to stores) has taken a gigantic bite out of their bottom lines. A preliminary hearing was scheduled for this month, but it’s been postponed until August.


In the meantime, though, the company has filed a detailed breakdown of average store profit margins between 2002 (when the so-called “Always Fresh” system was first introduced) and 2008. The conclusion? Frozen donuts have actually been good for business. Extremely good.

During that seven-year span, the average Hortons outlet earned nearly $1.5 million (before interest and taxes) and watched profits grow from $174,280 in 2002 to more than $265,000 in 2008. Shops in Saskatchewan were especially lucrative; a typical franchisee in that province earned more than $396,000 in 2008—a 105 per cent jump from 2002.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/busin...ys-profitable/


Edit: I was a university student in the early 2000s and recently went back to school. In 2002, I was able to work and save enough money for a full years tuition on a minimum wage salary. While I was a student, I was impoverished, but was able to make enough money to adequately cover living expenses and tuition for the 8 months of school.

Returning as a student in 2013, the cost of tuition alone, not including books or other expenses, was half the gross earnings from a minimum wage position for an entire year.

Edit #2: This article is from just a couple of days ago:

Too many companies in Alberta are allowed to pay temporary foreign workers below the prevailing wage, threatening good middle class jobs, says the Alberta Federation of Labour.

Premier Jim Prentice should ask the federal government why so many companies are allowed to pay TFWs $10 an hour less than Canadians are paid for trades jobs, said AFL president Gil McGowan.

For instance, Kiewit Energy in the oilsands, even got approval for 200 trades workers, including electricians, without indicating their hourly wage in the Labour Market Opinion on 2013, said

McGowan. "Why is the federal government approving permits with lower wages - that's what Prentice should ask," said McGowan, noting that many such approvals go to non-union companies.

Prentice has said that recent changes designed to reduce the number of low-skilled temporary foreign workers program are harming Alberta business and that's the issue he will raise soon with federal Employment Minister Jason Kenney.

The wage data for more than 2,000 companies come from federal documents released to the AFL in a freedom of information request.

In Edmonton, Supreme International Welders was approved for 28 TFW welders at $19.25 an hour - more than $10 below the prevailing Canadian wage of $30 an hour for that skilled trade.

The half-dozen cases in Edmonton included California Closets with approval to pay a foreign carpenter $19 an hour. The AFL documents say that is $7 less than the prevailing wage.

But Cameron Johnson from California Closets disputed the AFL figures. He told the Journal that his company employs one temporary foreign worker, a cabinet maker, paid the proper prevailing wage of $19/hour for that position.

In Fort McMurray, Samjin Industrial, a subsidiary of the Korean National Oil Company, brought in 60 welders at $30 an hour, a wage that is $8 an hour below the prevailing wage.

There's a growing problem in the oilsands where state-owned companies like

Samjin and China's Sinopec are simply transferring their foreign workforce to Alberta and they don't need an LMO, he said.

"... The TFW program suppressed wages in the fast food industry and now the same is happening to skilled trade jobs that are the backbone of the middle class," said McGowan.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Compa...754/story.html

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

So where are all the youngin's working these days for their first jobs? Are they even working or has it shifted from the typical fast food job to something else I'm not aware of.

I think a factor, which may ultimately be contributing to the (apparent)need for TFWs in low skill jobs, is the sense of entitlement of the younger generation. This sense of entitlement leads youth to believe they deserve high paying jobs right away (some possibly even believe they have a right to a high paying job), without having to work their way up from the bottom, thus leading to the belief that these crap fast food jobs are beneath them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I am willing to bet that you don't have kids at the daycare age right now.

This is an entirely separate issue entirely. We had to go on a waiting list for daycare prior to our even telling close family we were expecting. That's how short the availability of spots are.

Nope kids 5 and 3. Although my wife stays home since we had the second.

We found lots of dayhomes in our area that had availability so we were lucky. I agree that depending on area there are significant issues but the answer isn't bring in TFW's and pay them less than it would cost to find someone to do the job. The issues around daycare really should be solved on their own and TFW's shouldn't be a solution for it.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by GGG

Nope kids 5 and 3. Although my wife stays home since we had the second.

We found lots of dayhomes in our area that had availability so we were lucky. I agree that depending on area there are significant issues but the answer isn't bring in TFW's and pay them less than it would cost to find someone to do the job. The issues around daycare really should be solved on their own and TFW's shouldn't be a solution for it.

I'm shocked. Wow. You may live in one of the few areas that has ample day care options.

[ae118]

Where do you live, GGG? Any nearby houses for sale?

It's definitely a larger issue. But don't start me on the need for affordable quality daycare across the country.