[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

How do you know that a deal could be done in a few months at Victoria Park? Do we know if the Stampede is a willing participant? Has the city had any previous discussions with the Stampede about a stadium here and/or a potential land swap? Is CSEC going to want any additional concessions from the Stampede or vice versa? Were any reps from the Stampede at the council meeting today?

Because almost everything is already in place. The cost of the building? Flames got $450 million for that. Already CRL money in the area that can be drawn from too. The Stampede will willingly accept the location because they'll still get to make parking revenue from the location, unlike CalgaryNEXT where they'd be totally out in the cold. Location also allows for big shows to still happen during Stampede, which obviously drives revenue into the Stampede. As long as the CSEC isn't looking for everything and refusing the negotiate even a little, this seems very easy to get done, far, far easier than CalgaryNEXT. This could be fully operational before a single shovel even hits the ground for CalgaryNEXT. CSEC would be pretty moronic to not see this as the best option, no matter how badly they want CalgaryNEXT. Ken King said he wants something done quick, and this is the only thing that can be done quick.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by FlamesNation23

Was there any discussion about when the flames could submit their plan, including some renderings?

For which site? The West Village CalgaryNext plan that they never did formally submit to the City or the Victoria Park one that the City seems to actually be doing for them?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just want to add that the Victoria Park parcel of land is way too small for a new arena let alone an entertainment district. Also just want to add that the same problems that make the Saddledome a bad location would still exist, just moved two blocks north. Just a horrible location. Based on this location the Flames new building would not have mass transit access directly to the building and not require going for a long walk outdoors to reach the arena. The only other Canadian building with that honor? Winnipeg's MTS Centre. Now that's the building and city you want to emulate!

I know I'm just small town folk that only goes to a handful of Flames games per year, but I don't think the Saddledome is in a bad location at all.

[surferguy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just want to add that the Victoria Park parcel of land is way too small for a new arena let alone an entertainment district. Also just want to add that the same problems that make the Saddledome a bad location would still exist, just moved two blocks north. Just a horrible location. Based on this location the Flames new building would not have mass transit access directly to the building and not require going for a long walk outdoors to reach the arena. The only other Canadian building with that honor? Winnipeg's MTS Centre. Now that's the building and city you want to emulate!

The green line will go right beside this new location. Maybe even tie directly into it??

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Because almost everything is already in place. The cost of the building? Flames got $450 million for that. Already CRL money in the area that can be drawn from too. The Stampede will willingly accept the location because they'll still get to make parking revenue from the location, unlike CalgaryNEXT where they'd be totally out in the cold. Location also allows for big shows to still happen during Stampede, which obviously drives revenue into the Stampede. As long as the CSEC isn't looking for everything and refusing the negotiate even a little, this seems very easy to get done, far, far easier than CalgaryNEXT. This could be fully operational before a single shovel even hits the ground for CalgaryNEXT. CSEC would be pretty moronic to not see this as the best option, no matter how badly they want CalgaryNEXT. Ken King said he wants something done quick, and this is the only thing that can be done quick.

Wait...what?

You think the Flames are still going to pony up 450 Million?

I seriously doubt that's the case.

[Reggie Dunlop]

CalgaryNEXT was never a serious ask. It was the over-the-top opening pitch to make the Victoria Park bid appear more palatable.

The West End complex would've been a logistical nightmare. Creosote remediation is needed -- that was the only hook.

The city missed an opportunity to put a field house on the old Currie CF base. Relatively central.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by surferguy

The green line will go right beside this new location. Maybe even tie directly into it??

And from stampede station you can walk indoor through BMO all the way to the casino leaving only a block outside from the "red line"

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just want to add that the Victoria Park parcel of land is way too small for a new arena let alone an entertainment district.

The Entertainment District would be all over Victoria Park, even the West Village isn't big enough for a district with the giant footprint of the arena and fieldhouse.

As for the parcel of land, it was pointed out in the presentation it is more than other arenas. It's a bigger parcel than the ACC or Bell Centre are on.

Also just want to add that the same problems that make the Saddledome a bad location would still exist, just moved two blocks north. Just a horrible location. Based on this location the Flames new building would not have mass transit access directly to the building and not require going for a long walk outdoors to reach the arena. The only other Canadian building with that honor? Winnipeg's MTS Centre. Now that's the building and city you want to emulate!

The Green Line is going near the Victoria Park site, giving it reasonable access from all three LRT lines in the city. West Village only has the one, and it would be the worst one for access before and after games. Have the Green Line that still could be worked into the plan directly plus a similar walk from Stampede Station and sub 1km walk if you just want to hop on the trains NE (so shorter than if WV people wanted to do the same) is better than a walkway from Sunalta Station.

The Canadian Tire Centre also doesn't have mass transit access to the building, BTW.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just want to add that the Victoria Park parcel of land is way too small for a new arena let alone an entertainment district. Also just want to add that the same problems that make the Saddledome a bad location would still exist, just moved two blocks north. Just a horrible location. Based on this location the Flames new building would not have mass transit access directly to the building and not require going for a long walk outdoors to reach the arena. The only other Canadian building with that honor? Winnipeg's MTS Centre. Now that's the building and city you want to emulate!

What? None of that is true.

As already discussed a few times, the land in question is the same size as the Prudential Center in Newark (both arena and practice rink). The Entertainment District would be built up around the new arena. It wouldn't have to fit within those two blocks. Over a decade ago, the Stampede unveiled plans to build an Entertainment District along 4th Street.

The Green Line C-Train will almost-certainly have a station within a block of the new arena, quite likely underground. The distance from the Victoria Park C-Train station to the new arena would be almost identical as the walk from the C-Train to the Saddledome. There's already a +15 that goes through the BMO Centre and Casino that would likely be extended right into the new building. Even if it weren't extended, it would be about 100m from the Casino front door to the arena.

Ottawa's only "mass transit" service to the arena is bus service that drops people off at least 100m from the arena.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by transplant99

what does the library contribute in the way of an entertainment district?

At the very least, it fills a hole in the nearby urban fabric. What is meant by urban fabric is basically continuous intense-use development that forms an urban area, whereas surface parking, vacant lots, etc. effectively end or break up the collective usability and vitality of an area.

It's also going to see much more use for events, programming than the old location. Through this, it can be a gathering place of its own from time to time, and otherwise adds to the collective "placeness" of the surrounding blocks.

Logistically, it also plays a key part in the area in that it bridges over a large visual, physical and psychological barrier that is the South LRT connection to the CP Tunnel and creates a good transition to the 7th Avenue transit mall.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well this "potential" has existed down there for what....40 years now?

What's going to change now?

It's more instructive to first look at what has changed.

- Public works in East Village including raising the floodplain, riverwalk (which will continue south across the tracks at 7th Street East), new 4th Street Underpass (which solves a huge connectivity issue for both East Village, Stampede and Victoria Park.

- Private and institutional development that followed East Village work as well as adjacent East Beltline. National Music Centre along with above-noted Central Library, lots of condos, some office.

- A general shift over the past decade in Calgary and large urban areas in North America generally toward urban renewal.

Now, what will change:

- A brand new high capacity LRT line directly adjacent to the proposed site, as well as proximity to existing LRT that will slowly see capacity increases due to 4 car train operation and other improvements.

- Stampede Youth Campus

- More development on ready-to-build parcels of land.

- A new high capacity Calgary Parking Authority parkade a few blocks to the north.

- The eventual relocation of the Victoria Park Transit Centre (aka bus barns) which will open up prime riverfront land for development

- The eventual removal of the Saddledome which will enable the Stampede's long-talked-about Stampede Trail plans (on this, your "potential for 40 years" point is somewhat resonant, granted). Or, worst case, repurposing of the Saddledome.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

CalgaryNEXT was never a serious ask.

Off topic, but when did "ask" become a noun? I've seen it a lot recently, but only in the context of hockey and the hockey industry. Very strange.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ha. Well okay, I can see why they'd want free land in the city. So do I.

I didn't know/had forgotten that they expected to be gifted that whole parcel in the "West Village". I thought they were just angling for a cheap rink and football stadium and were pitching the development to the south as a sort of "if we build it they will come, and the city benefits" kind of a deal.

For clarification, the area surrounding CalgaryNEXT wouldn't be owned by the CSEC. Nothing would be, including the stadium. But since the land surrounding has nothing, and is worth little currently, owners have the ability to purchase and own land (if they don't already) and reap the benefits from their vision of the West Village area.

[GGG]

That's funny,

The pro arena arguement is that an arena revitalizes a neighbourhood on its own creating an entertainment district and adding value and development which funds the CRL. Now apparently the arena needs help doing this.

I like the concept though and using 50 million ish to provide infrastructure plus the land in my opinion would be a reasonable ID of public funds where the Flames pay for, own, and maintain the building.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GGG

The pro arena arguement is that an arena revitalizes a neighbourhood on its own creating an entertainment district and adding value and development which funds the CRL. Now apparently the arena needs help doing this.

I believe the issue the Flames have with this is that the Calgary Stampede has been dragging their feet development wise for years and years and years. I understand the lack of faith in them. The fact the Calgary Stampede grounds are effectively an abandoned carnival grounds for 50 weeks each year is ridiculous.

[Ducay]

What ever happened to that awesome site plan for the Stampede grounds where it was year round walkable retail/entertainment and not just one giant parking lot?

I thought the BMO centre renos & expansion were the first step in that whole plan, but seems like it was the final solution to the concrete problem?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Ducay

What ever happened to that awesome site plan for the Stampede grounds where it was year round walkable retail/entertainment and not just one giant parking lot?

I thought the BMO centre renos & expansion were the first step in that whole plan, but seems like it was the final solution to the concrete problem?

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I believe the issue the Flames have with this is that the Calgary Stampede has been dragging their feet development wise for years and years and years. I understand the lack of faith in them. The fact the Calgary Stampede grounds are effectively an abandoned carnival grounds for 50 weeks each year is ridiculous.

Basically this. Stampede has done squat in developing Stampede Trail.

Thankfully, CMLC is now involved, so things should start rolling with their guidance. Especially since they're the ones whom made this arena report.

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/news-full/2...tegic-alliance

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/riversdistrictmasterplan

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/news-full/2...-victoria-park

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Basically this. Stampede has done squat in developing Stampede Trail.

Thankfully, CMLC is now involved, so things should start rolling with their guidance. Especially since they're the ones whom made this arena report.

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/news-full/2...tegic-alliance

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/riversdistrictmasterplan

http://www.calgarymlc.ca/news-full/2...-victoria-park

Thanks - Is there any good article/site that outlines by block/parcel the current owner? I know many ASP's from the city highlight the owners, etc, but couldn't find one for this area.

Wonder what exactly CMLC owns versus what Stampede owns.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Ducay

What ever happened to that awesome site plan for the Stampede grounds where it was year round walkable retail/entertainment and not just one giant parking lot?

I thought the BMO centre renos & expansion were the first step in that whole plan, but seems like it was the final solution to the concrete problem?

The development company they hired went teets up.

EDIT: ^Whoops not true. The development company could not secure financing for the lease. They approached the Stampede board to form a JV but they were only interested in being a landlord. That was to risky as a not for profit so they broke it off.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ha. Well okay, I can see why they'd want free land in the city. So do I.

I didn't know/had forgotten that they expected to be gifted that whole parcel in the "West Village". I thought they were just angling for a cheap rink and football stadium and were pitching the development to the south as a sort of "if we build it they will come, and the city benefits" kind of a deal.

They never, ever asked for that, never mind expected it.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Off topic, but when did "ask" become a noun? I've seen it a lot recently, but only in the context of hockey and the hockey industry. Very strange.

I've seen it used by charities and political parties.